Our Country ..Is it Lost....

[Lockeness Monster]

I have read the theories on America post 911 being what symbolizes Lost. I thought no way that's ridiculous. Recently however I have been doing quite a bit of traveling outside the US. I have never really been to Europe or Asia prior to this trip. One was Vacation and on was business anyway, I never realized how many people outside the US hate Americans, Hate maybe a strong word butI got that feeling from many people. Like someone asking me where I am from and after I say America, turn there backs and walk away. Or a grandmother in the Airport in Manila spitting on me cursing America. Have we Isolated ourselves this much are we Lost?

I remember thinking on the plane ride back about the show and how people view us and Maybe that theory has more merit than I gave it credit. Maybe its not the main plot but the idea.

I never realized how much distaste there is for America right now. I had always thought people would aim their dislikes to-wards politics not the people, but I guess we now live in a different world.

[gscaleta]

Did you stop in Canada? I hear they love us there.

[Frank45]

Damn, where you flying? I visited Europe several months ago - namely, Germany and Poland - and I received only positive comments and reactions from people. I proudly wore my American flag hat (every day, in fact), dispite warnings against it from friends at home.

I think those that hate our country, hate our government, and make a distinction. I hate our government, too; you don't need to be a foriegner to recognize the terrible state it's in.

[morbius47]

If they hate us so much why don't they just stay at home... oh wait they are at home. Nuke em all I say!

[MangaKhan]

So what! They hate our freedom. Let's see how much they hate us the next time we liberate them from the Germans.

Also most of our Allies were bribed by the UN and Saddam Hussein.

[Zambini Stardust]

I have been to Canada and France this year. Canadians were wonderful, pleasant, genuinely nice people. French (outside CDG airport in Paris) were similarly enjoyable. Neither group spat at me or cursed me or turned their back on me when they found out I was American. They engaged me in pleasant social conversation, talked up the benefits of their particular city, asked me about my life, etc. I believe people in general do not hate America (or France, or England, or Japan, or Russia, or the Congo, or Afghanistan, or any other country). There are obvious exceptions to this rule: some radical Islamists hate America, some Americans hate Saudi Arabia, some Japanese hate China, some Uzbekistanis hate Russia, etc. But overall, I give people a bit more credit than that.

LOST is a tv show, not a reflection of American post 9/11. In my opinion.

[gscaleta]

I don't get the whole post 911 and lost comparison thing anyways. Right it is just a show and to think it reflects America is really kind of silly. What's next then? Does trading spouses reflect the American family? Does spongebob reflect our youth? Does Queer Eye for the Straight Guy reflect Morbius's sexuality (wait that one might).

I dunno the idea seams plain silly.

Going to apologize right now.

[morbius47]

I talked to two men from Germany several days before we invaded Iraq. They said they and everyone they knew was for the war. They said their news media, like ours, only showed those opposed to it.

I have a friend that has been in Iraq doing volunteer work as a midwife. She says people there HATED Hussein and are glad he is gone. She said the soldiers she met were positive about their mission. She said many of the pictures of supposed American destruction were pictures of cities Saddam had bombed himself, before the war. She did say the Iraqi's were ready to self govern. But grateful for us coming.

[gscaleta]

i agree with Morbius on that. I have an uncle in the military and he says the same thing. Overall people are glad we are there it's just that the mainstream media chooses to only talk of the deaths and destruction and not the good things that take place.

[cccourt]

For history buffs: these countries and their problems are similar. Their countries were divided. Come to think of it, America is too.

We fought our civil war. We tried to intervene, AFTER the french, in Vietnam. It didn't work. We are not going to be able to do much more in Iraq. If they want a tabula rasa, they have it...Saddam Hussein is gone. Now it is up to them to hash out their civil probs. And if someone from Hussein's regime ends up running their country?? So be it. Let them decide.
ccc|I

[cccourt]

Guess what...we also share inalienable rights..and one of them is the right to this board. However...it doesn't pay for itself..Please contribute to the community chest.
Thx, ccc:D

[Frank45]

If our media was opposed to the war, you'd think that newspeople would have asked for, you know, *proof* that we were right before we invaded. Don't be so quick to dismiss the media as biased. They are terrible at their jobs, all of them; but biased, I'm not so sure.

If Iraqis were ready for self-governing, then why didn't they...govern themselves? Did anyone save our founding fathers from oppression? No. If a people are ready to rule themselves, then they will. It's fairly simple. A government only works as long as the people support it: any government.

[Lockeness Monster]

After posting this I was reading, checking the news on CNN and found this in today's paper. We can disguise ourselves as Canadians when we travel.

www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/am...index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/12/07/canada.tshirts.ap/index.html)


I gues canda does love us. :)

[cccourt]

When I lived in SE Asia, I had a t-shirt printed that said, I am not a tourist..and the back said..I Live Here! Now then. When America was being ridiculed, insulted, I changed my accent and claimed to be an Australian. Worked every time!
ccc:D

[Frank45]

i agree with Morbius on that. I have an uncle in the military and he says the same thing. Overall people are glad we are there it's just that the mainstream media chooses to only talk of the deaths and destruction and not the good things that take place
I think the number is eleven. Eleven people died last week. Is that not worthy of discussing? And what, exactly, is the good? That it is taking more troops to occupy Iraq than it did to capture it? That the violence grows more intense each month?

Don't blame the media for reporting the facts. I mean, you can't say Fox is biased *against* the war, yet their reports are oft simaler to their competitors. Damn, if there has ever been a biased news organization, it's them. I remember a promo from a few weeks ago, pre-election: an ominous male voice, and pictures of Kerry as a soilder. "Kerry sided with the North Vietnamese during the war. Is he fit to be our president? Tonight, at 11." That was the promo, almost verbatim.

[DriftWood]

Fox news is for the weak of mind.

[MangaKhan]

Good input LEFTwood.:lol @u

[morbius47]

Well, I know patriotism is not popular these days, but I love my country, I support our president, If the rest of the world doesn't like what we do, they can step up to the plate and do something themselves. They talk, we act. We may make mistakes, but at least we care enough to try.

[gscaleta]

Morb said "Well, I know pariotism is not popular these days, but I love my country, I support our president, If the rest of the world doesn't like what we do, they can step up to the plate and do something themselves. They talk, we act. We may make mistakes, but at least we care enough to try. "

I'm trying to get behind you cause I agree 100%. I'm just not sure I know what pariotism is? I thought you were bi but if you have some sort of parrot thing I'm gonna have to avoid you!

[broerox]

Several international polls have indicated that anti-Americanism has sharply increased as a result of our invasion of Iraq. I think the world stood with us post-9/11 and that solidarity was squandered.

[Frank45]

"Well, I know patriotism is not popular these days, but I love my country, I support our president, If the rest of the world doesn't like what we do, they can step up to the plate and do something themselves. They talk, we act. We may make mistakes, but at least we care enough to try."

You don't have to support the government to be a patriot. I am extremely proud of my heritage, of my nation. That is why I abhor the government that is ruining it. Not just this administration - though it is particularly awful.

The reason that other governments stay within their borders is...that's what governments are supposed to do. Empires attempt to bring the world together. That's what we've become, and George Washington would be appalled. I'm appalled.

So wave a flag, sing the "Star-Spangled Banner". But don't trust your government blindly. That's not what a patriot would do.

[gscaleta]

frank morbius first said pariotism not patriotism so he is confused as it is. Please do not add. The nurses on his ward do not like that.

[csx321]

Did anyone save our founding fathers from oppression?
Well, yes, the French did. From everything I have read, it seems to me that without French assistance and without Cornwallis' surrender at Yorktown, we very possibly would have lost the Revolutionary War.

[morbius47]

The world does not want America, or the US rather, to stay within it's borders. The world, in other words the UN, asks us quite frequently to leave our shores. The problem is, they only want us to do it at their request.

I do not follow our government blindly, in fact, in spend a lot of time in studying exactly what is going on. The amazing thing to me is how little talk we here of what was really going on in Iraq. We don't hear about the things that the people were going through, that they have been freed from. We do not hear about the consequences of the sanctions that the UN and the "world" wanted to keep in place, instead of ousting Hussein. It is important for a patriot to look at all sides of the story, not just what they hear on the news. (Any news, including FOX)

From my own study, from my talks with people who have been there, from families of soldiers, from reports from Iraqi's, I have decided I support my governments actions. I never follow anything or anyone blindly. It is best to never accuse anyone of doing that unless you know what you are talking about, and unless you are not guilty of it.

[Frank45]

See, to me, it doesn’t matter what was going on in Iraq, or what things are like now. It wasn’t our place to get involved. They didn’t pose a threat to our security. If you read the writings of our founding fathers, particularly Washington, you’ll see they staunchly opposed American foreign military intervention. Why we abandoned that principle, I’ll never know. What I do know is that America is not the police of the world. I don’t want that; the world doesn’t want that. It isn’t our place; we don’t have the resources nor the authority to do that. If you’re arguing that America’s imperialistic actions help people, than perhaps you’re correct. But do you want us to be an empire?

As for the Revolutionary War, it is ludicrous to imply that we would have failed without the French; the resolve of our founders would not have been deterred, even if we were fighting alone (which, for the most part, we were).

[morbius47]

Since when does the world not want us to be the world police? When did that happen? Somebody better tell the UN, they are going to be pissed.

Unlike some, I do care about what was happening to the people in Iraq. I do care about the pursecution people suffered for their beliefs. I do care about the oppression of women in that and other muslim countries. I do not believe that just because they are afraid to stand up for themselves, they should be ignored. I do care that children were starving while Saddam horded all the wealth made off the oil for food program. I do not believe any country that does nothing to help others deserves freedom for itself.

[carmeno]

so do you want us to go help all countries that have governments that persecute people, or just those with oil?

oh, and if we do end up invading all the countries with governments that persecute their own people, we'll have to attack ourselves -- what is this about a constitutional amendment BANNING gay marriage?

[Zambini Stardust]

Please don't accuse me of suppressing freedom of speech, but it seems we have gotten a bit off-topic. Back to the show, anyone?

[morbius47]

I would like someone to explain to me how we have profited from Iraqi oil. I hear that accusation a lot, but I have never seen any documentation. I'm not saying it's not true, but I have not been able to find proof. Zambini, speech suppressor, I am sorry for being off topic. I get spun up on this topic. I am not trying to fight with anyone, I really do try to understand the other side.

[akg]

were you wearing an american flag or red white and blue socks?????

i stayed in paris for 6 weeks last summer with not even 1 problem. i am in and out of international airports all the time.

my dad has lived in paris for the last 2 years, no problems.

i live in tokyo now and everyone is extremely nice to me.

i've never had a problem with being american.

[kanusailah]

Hate exists everywhere, not just towards Americans....outside America. I think all of us can understand and see that. Think of America, how much hate exists in our own country towards our own citizens. All that racial and ethnic discrimination, gender, age, you name it.

It is EVERYWHERE, and peace and love begins from within. What are YOU are perpetrator of? Most of you do not seem lost to me.

It's just funny how so many people in America hate immigrants, yet that is what our country is "built on."

[HoopsworldMan]

"The amazing thing to me is how little talk we here of what was really going on in Iraq."

You're exactly right. We aren't hearing how truly horribly @#%$ up Iraq is. Someone from the Wall Street journal, a CONSERVATIVE paper, wrote an email to her friends describing how chaotic the situation is, and she was suspended. The media doesn't even cover deaths in Iraq anymore. And if they do, they briefly mention it and then spend the next 2 hours on the Scott Petersen trial.

[Frank45]

The UN wants us to be the world police? No, no. They want us to give them money, so that *they* can be the police. Which is also a mistake, as the UN is a terrible organization. Do you really think, though, that is the opinion of most of the world that we ought to be the police? That we are some how superior to all other countries, and there for ought to be the ones to judge them? If that is what you believe, than I can assure you, you are mistaken.

I'm glad that you felt bad for the Iraqis. It shows the nature of your character. All people of the world with compassion are appalled by atrocities such as those inflicted upon the Iraqi people. However, you must understand: the American government is not the solution. The job of the American government is to govern Americans; if it tries to do anything else, than ultimately, *it will fail*.

I don't believe that we went to war for oil. I think that President Bush truly believed it was the right thing to do. It's never the right thing to do. Invading other countries because they are "unfree" will put as at war with more than half the world. As carmeno mentioned, we are far from free. We become less and less free with each passing year. Anti-gay marriage, the drug war, the fear of terrorism...these things continue to suppress our Freedom. Who will help us?

The answer? No one. We must help ourselves. We as Americans need to take charge, and change things in this country. And the same goes for other oppressive nations; it is the duty of their citizens to fight against their governments. If they are unwilling to do that...than why should we?

[HoopsworldMan]

Frank, I'm sorry, but you and the people like you are douchebags. Think logically for a second. Of course Saddam is a bastard and I'm glad he's gone. But do you realize that there are plenty of other bastards in the world who actually treat their people worse than Saddam did? North Korea, Iran, and a few African countries come to mind.

If you want to me consistent, then you must push for war in all of those countries since they have people that need to be liberated as well. Oh wait, what's that? You don't support war in those places? Just go commit a felony so we can have one less complete jackass with the power to vote.

[schweinhaxe]

I don't doubt that many countries hate america. And I don't doubt the stories people have posted about being treated badly abroad for being american.

In my experiences traveling abroad post 9-11/post invasion Iraq, I've never had a problem. I was in latin america and europe, in touristy places and non-touristy places and was never treated badly because I was american. In fact, I felt like people were extra hospitable/accommmodating. It wasn't just those involved in the tourist industry but from all walks of life. And no, I'm not one of those who feel I should get special treatment just because I'm american.

I met many people who disagreed with america's foreign policies and were amazed(as many of you no doubt will be) that I could stand behind Bush. Never did they expess any hate towards me(they may have shot me the bird when I wasn't looking, I don't know). I was treated better abroad by locals than I probably would have treated foreign visitors here before I started traveling. I know everyone's experiences aren't the same as mine.

To get even more off topic(sorry), When someone throws poll results at you, for instance, "X% of europeans say they hate americans", it may very well be that most europeans hate americans, but before deciding to accept this as fact(and sorry to everyone who already knows this-I'm not trying to insult anyone's intellegence here) you should ask: 1) who conducted the poll, 2) how many people were polled, 3) what were the demographics of the people that were polled. At the least.

<slinks back into the crowd>

[HoopsworldMan]

I have lots of family in Europe and they don't hate Americans or America. They just hate Republicans.

[Frank45]

The @#%$ you talking about, Hoop? Why don't you @#%$ read my posts before you start with the name-calling. I said I was *against* the war, ya ass.

[HoopsworldMan]

*Is an ass*

Still, I'm tired of douchebag conservatives that are inconsistent in their beliefs.

[bgtees]

MangaKhan - that was one of my favorite CD's in high school.

(Rush 2112 for anyone who's wondering)

[morbius47]

Frank,

I appreciate the way you present you arguments, and I agree with some of what you say. America does have a lot of housecleaning to do within it's own borders. On the other stuff, I am glad we can politely disagree. Please do not consider me one of the name callers. (Except for me calling Zambini the free speech suppressor that he is - because that is a joke)
Probably won't post more on this off-topic, because some are getting a little heated. I like debate, but not argument.

[ChewbaccasInnerWookie]

WOW!

I've never been called a douche bag before.

danke
dw--- ::grumble grumble-- hates sweeping generalizations-- grumble grumble::

[Zambini Stardust]

(Except for me calling Zambini the free speech suppressor that he is - because that is a joke)

I would respond to that, but my speech was suppressed by Air America. :rollin

[MangaKhan]

The last time I got involved in one of these discussions I got told to get back on topic. Seeing as this is "the unofficial forum for the abc series LOST", I, being an adult, suggest we get back on topic.

Let's face it, the liberls are never going to GET IT (proof, in order to reach us Religious Conservatives they promote a preacher to be their leader in the Senate. Problem is they promoted a MORMON).

I suggest if you all want to continue this conversation, you move your discussions to this forum:

forum.protestwarrior.com/index.php (http://forum.protestwarrior.com/index.php)

Now when the characters start talking politics (and Boone's little comment last week don't count) then I say let the fur fly.

[MangaKhan]

MangaKhan - that was one of my favorite CD's in high school.

Thanks for noticing bgtees. Your only the second person to comment.

[cccourt]

...Geo. W Bush is in Iraq cause his pop didn't finish the job..and has been ridiculed for same. If 9/11 had never occurred, the USA would still be in Iraq.
ccc

[morbius47]

MUST REFRAIN - WILL NOT GET SPUN UP AGAIN...

[Trader Bill]

USA, Iraq....can't we ever talk about Italy?

[Lockeness Monster]

I am just trying to think of ways to better ourselves and to change that perception that we are so turned in on ourselves.

I think Americans have been so use to doing this without noticing it is going to be hard for us to change. I did it just by naming this thread. Our Country... I believe this board can and is viewed by people everywhere. We have to change.

If we continue to boast that we are the big boys on the block and that we make and assign the axis of evil. one day we will be knocked down. Its inevitable. We should not portray a people that believes that your country no matter where you are in the world is either with us or against us.

I wish the US wasn't so divided right now.

[boobie_tassels]

*cracks mod whip*

Despite the first sentence of the original post, and the many attempts by several posters, this thread is far from the topic of Lost.

Moving to Lostaways as it is off topic. Also play nice people, or it gets locked.

[petcat0000]

"I have read the theories on America post 911 being what symbolizes Lost. I thought no way that's ridiculous. Recently however I have been doing quite a bit of traveling outside the US. I have never really been to Europe or Asia prior to this trip. One was Vacation and on was business anyway, I never realized how many people outside the US hate Americans, Hate maybe a strong word but I got that feeling from many people. Like someone asking me where I am from and after I say America, turn there backs and walk away. Or a grandmother in the Airport in Manila spitting on me cursing America. Have we Isolated ourselves this much are we Lost?"

This is such bull. I have been to many places in South American and South East Asia since 9/11. I have yet to experience any anti-American sentiment. As for Manila. Are you on drugs? They love Americans there. Especially the young girls. I was practically raped at the Makati mall. My mother just got back from a trip to Lybia. Thats right Lybia. And she experienced nothing but pleasantness there. In an Arab dictatorship, she was greeted with respect and a great deal of curiosity. Everyone wanted a picture with her. Even her Twarag guide had a crush on her.

Please, don't fall for the "ugly American" nonsense that the hate America Left would love to sell to everyone (and that the press always pushes). Its not that way at all.

Now look, I'm sure there are some Europeans that won't like an American. But who cares. Europe is lost anyway. In fact, Europe is more lost than Jack, Kate, Sayid, Sawyer, and all the rest. Watch Fox's Eurabia for all the disgusting details. If Europe doesn't do something about its Muslim immigration problem, it won't be "European" for very long and America will be the one to continue the legacy of Western Civilization.

And as for Canada. Look, if Benedict Arnold had won the Battle of Quebec, Canada would have been the 14th colony. Their greatest flaw was in winning that battle. Besides, their still a suburb of American whether they know it or not. In fact, I wish we could take all our moobat crazy liberals and dump them over the Canadian border. (Actually,it would be nice if we could dump our crazy Evangelicals too, but a rant on them is for another post.)

Enjoy your American citizenship. Its like being a citizen of Rome at its height. We are the light of the world. You'd have to be crazy not to revel in that.

[Frank45]

"Now look, I'm sure there are some Europeans that won't like an American. But who cares. Europe is lost anyway. In fact, Europe is more lost than Jack, Kate, Sayid, Sawyer, and all the rest. Watch Fox's Eurabia for all the disgusting details. If Europe doesn't do something about its Muslim immigration problem, it won't be "European" for very long and America will be the one to continue the legacy of Western Civilization."

America will be a Mexican nation, if we don't do something about *our* immigration problem...

What do you mean that Europe is lost? That's a pretty vague statement. America is an awesome country, and I'm proud to live here; but don't dismiss the rest of the world as our inferiors.

[petcat0000]

"America will be a Mexican nation, if we don't do something about *our* immigration problem... What do you mean that Europe is lost?"

The Mexicans in America assimilate with the rest of the culture for the most part and they are not part of a hostile thought system (Islam) which is antithetical to the foundation of the country (and the West in general). The Muslims don't assimilate and all too frequently act like barbarians. I didn't say that Eruope is lost but that it will be lost if it doesn't regain its heritage.

"America is an awesome country, and I'm proud to live here; but don't dismiss the rest of the world as our inferiors."

Why? If the shoe fits, wear it. When Europe abandons its socialistic, pacifistic, American hating decline into mediocrity (and Islamic savagery, ie the slaughter of Van Gogh), I'll be the first to give it credit. Until then, Europe and Canada deserve the @#%$ they get.

[artemisia]

First post
Very interesting board.
I live less that a mile from Ground Zero. Yes, that makes me a New Yorker (who voted for Bush by the way!)
I find that I have the same haunted fascination with this show as I had with the WTC site. The first year I must have visited the site a 100 times, downloaded 1000's of pics. I've visited this board in the same obsessive way, watched the episodes 2-3 times. I feel there is somehow an analogy for me. It's hard to put my finger on it. Maybe because there are survivors here... and that day there were none.

[Lockeness Monster]

The survivors were the children of all the parents killed that day, the relatives, freinds and family. Pushing on in their names. I agree with you though on the obsessivness, not only with this show, but ever since 911 I have been jumping around from one obsession the other. I putall my energy and efforts in to one sigle thing until I am completely burned out and move to the next. I am looking into therapy for real.Never thought I would need it. I don't feel like I have as much control though as once before. Maybe not directly related to 911, but thats when it started. Lost a good freind on that tuesday.

[artemisia]

Very thoughtful answer Lockeness. Yes I do have these fascinations/passions i.e. obsessions to the point of being burned out. So much more pleasant than truly taking in the news of the day. I've always been a little on the obsessive side which is a good thing in my profession (artist)
As far as survivors, I never thought of it like that. So I guess that would include the neighborhood, etc. All those who went on. The plane flew right over my apt. and knocked the ceiling down on my church. If the building had not imploded down or if the sparks had ignited more, I wouldn't have a neighborhood.
But I did mean of the actual attacks. People did leave WTC-so even there, there were survivors. I guess it was in the next 3 days to a week when I would have given a trillion dollars to hear that one of the firemen had gotten out. Or that the people on the plane in PA had managed to land themselves safely in a field. So I still think these survivors are my dream survivors.
As for the other topic, I traveled in Italy and England post 9-11 and encountered only kindness but have met a number of quasi-intellectual foreigners here who are quite snotty. As for any accusations of imperialism--where are our other states in these foreign lands?

[walkingcarpet23]

Please, don't fall for the "ugly American" nonsense that the hate America Left would love to sell to everyone (and that the press always pushes). Its not that way at all.

Oh please, are you truly that naive? That's right, every time someone speaks an ill word about this "amazing" nation it's passed off as lies and misdirection. I think it's time to wake up and realize that this country and our leader are viewed as a joke in other countries, and will continue to be viewed as a joke until we get rid of our arrogance and ignorance and understand that we do not have the authority to rule the world as we see fit.

[morbius47]

Carpet - Luckily over half the country doesn't agree with you.
Telling us to "wake up" doesn't take away from what we know to be facts. This anti-America stuff is not a myth, or something to be dismissed. But, it should not be accepted as absolute truth just because we see it on TV. It is not as widespread or as overwhelming as you believe. Look past the surface, you see there is more to the story.

[LostinTrinity]

oh, and if we do end up invading all the countries with governments that persecute their own people, we'll have to attack ourselves -- what is this about a constitutional amendment BANNING gay marriage?

As much as I disagree with an amendment banning gay marriage, it hardly qualifies as persecution. I fully support that gay people should be able to live together, love and marry each other as much as hetero's (my mother has been "married" in a same sex relationship for over 20 years). However to use language such as "PERSECUTION" to describe a large part of the population not agreeing with it is like a 10 year old saying their parents abuse them because they won't let them do whatever they want. Especially when you compare it to the actual persecution that occured in Iraq.

Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.
No comment on the other stuff.

[walkingcarpet23]

But, it should not be accepted as absolute truth just because we see it on TV. It is not as widespread or as overwhelming as you believe. Look past the surface, you see there is more to the story.

What news are you watching Morb? I'd say the news is VERY biased in making America always look good and just.

[azteclady]

If I may...

I think that many people abroad dislike the US government stance on many issues much, much more than they do the people who live here.

However, as much as it's become the joke du jour in the US to dismiss all of France's citizens as cowards, there are plenty of US stereotypes all over the world (i.e. loud, uncouth, camera toting people).

As for people from some culture typically assimilating faster or with less trouble than others (be it because of religious beliefs or not), I should think that cultural assimilation is directly proportional to the level acceptance by the prevalent cultural/ethnic groups surrounding them. Examples that come to mind are the Irish/Polish/Italian/East European shanties and ghettos in many of the biggest cities in the US at the turn of the Twentieth century.

On the ban on gay marriages: gays are people, why should they be denied rights equal to those of heterosexuals? Personally, whether a religious organization (i.e., a 'church') accepts marriage between same sex partners or not, should be completely irrelevant to the right of these people to contract civil marriages -not civil unions, which again are not equal to heterosexual marriages.

But that's just me.


Beto

[Frank45]

If a law was passed banning black people from getting married, would that be persecution, LostinTrinity?