Jungle - sea - beach symbolism?

[apocalypsepenguin]

Alright, did a few searches but didn't find anything on this before. If this has been done to death before, apologies.

Anyway, I think there could be an interesting interpretation hidden in these three 'entities'.

The jungle is dark, dangerous, and full of secrets -- like the souls of men in general, and the characters of Lost in particular. I think of Heart of Darkness, and of the Freudian Id, and wonder if there are any common themes for when characters venture into the jungle. Locke faces down the 'monster', and returns with a new-found purpose. Sawyer and Kate go for a swim which unearthes painful memories, then booze up and exhange dark secrets. Jack follows the ghost of his father into the jungle to find both relief and pain. Sayid, Hurley, Boone have all had episodes in the jungle with connotations to dealing with past failings/misfortunes. Claire and Charlie gets -- well, you get the idea.

The ocean is vast, and harbors danger as well (riptides and sneaky, finger-breaking frenchmen), but is also key to the ultimate salvation of the Lost ones (rescue, rafts, etc.). Their friends and loved ones, and a return to their life again, lie 'beyond the sea' (a-ha!). From there they have brought with them not only their physical belongings (some of which no doubt have deeper symbolical meanings), but their values, morals and ambitions -- central elements to their interactions with the rest of the survivors. Freudian Super-ego? Kind of thin, I admit.

Separating the two is the thin white line that is the beach, where everything is out in the open and characters seem to feel safe, but is also where a lot of intra-group conflicts take place and where people generally keep to themselves and keep secrets from each other.

I'm probably reaching with the Freudian thing, but the idea of the jungle-sea duality representing the human psyche has a certain appeal to me. People spend most of their lives on a philosophical beach, keeping up appearances and acting out their daily lives, but are constantly struggling to keep from being consumed by the darkness in their hearts and from losing themselves in pursuit of their ideals.

Thoughts? Any events that support or contradict these meta-meanings? As I recall Charlie did confess his heroin addiction to Hurley on the beach, but seeing as that particular secret was already half-way out I'm not sure it qualifies.

[spooky]

Welcome, apocolypsepenguin, very, very nice post. I really like the jungle/ocean/beach split. I like the idea of the forest representing the id -- where the psyche's shadow lives (like the monster who we really only see as shadows).

You should check out Winter Zera's posts about Monster-from-the-id.

I'm not sure about the ocean being a sign for super-ego. Your way of looking at it is really interesting. If it's the thing that connects them to the outside world, then maybe it's the thing that also represents authority, morals, etc. I tend to think of those things as more embedded by parents, or the lack there-of, but I need to think more about your idea.

So, I guess the beach is the ego? Even though there are lots of fights on the beach, there is usually some kind of mature or compromised (ego-negotiated) outcome. I'm thinking of Jack breaking up the fight between Charlie and Boone and making his speech about living together or dying alone. Or even Locke's speech, breaking up the Jin beating.

Anyway, lots to think about. Thanks for posting.

[boomom2]

The other obvious dichotomy is between the beach and the caves...contained vs. expansive...male vs. female.

[deelsee7]

Welcome, penguin! Nice post. I like the concept of the locations as symbols, especially since we now know the 'whispers' are somehow generated by their own thoughts.

What if we move the symbolism away from Freud into a more general context? The sea could represent their past lives in a greater society, in which they had much less influence and responsibility. The interior of the island could represent their new, smaller society in which each member is valued and responsible for the other members. The beach would then represent those unwilling to abandon their past lives, and/or unwilling to accept the responsibilities of becoming a member of the new society.

Jack, Locke, Charlie, Claire, Hurley, Walt, and Sun are quite ready to release their pasts and start anew. Jin was ready, but by turning his back on a fresh start with Sun, he must seek an alternative in the 'old world.'

Sayid, Kate, and Sawyer are definitely consumed by guilt over past 'sins' and feel unworthy or unable to trust enough to join any society. Sure, Sayid has helped, but mainly in attempts to get off the island, where he can return to the anonymity of the modern world. Kate gathers fruit and seeds, and has befriended Sun, but she has revealed more to Sawyer, another outsider, than anyone else. She has acted to protect the welfare of the other survivors, but she wishes neither to return to her old life or make a commitment to join the new society. Sawyer bought a place on the first raft, but I think he was driven more by the desire to leave the other castaways than to return to his previous life. He trusts no one, including himself, and I believe he will be the last to accept responsibilities for others.

Shannon appears to want a fresh start, but she has pinned her hopes on her relationship with Sayid, and is therefore tied to the ambiguity of the beach. Boone (has he moved to the caves yet?) has allied with Locke, but has such a weak personality, at least so far, that he is still an unknown.

Michael is the only one actively seeking to return to his previous life, but I feel that is more driven by his newfound responsibilities as a father than anything else. Will that change when and if he learns Walt wants to stay on the island? I believe he will eventually join the new society. He has already proved his desire to be useful to the group by designing the showers and building the raft.

Rose, (I'm not sure where she camps,) is content to stay anywhere, at least until she is rejoined by her husband, but did make an effort in helping Charlie out of his depression. The other redshirts are, of course, unknowns.

Although I like psychology, I haven't studied it since college - MANY years ago - so I don't know if this societal theory blends with your Id, Super Ego, etc. I have spent much time reflecting on the loss of physical communities and their support structures in modern society, as well as the lessening of personal responsibility to society as a whole due to our anonymity as members. I don't know if I'm getting my meaning across... An example would be how a driver might cut another car off in traffic, but would not do the same in a 'face-to-face' situation like the line in their local grocery store.

Let me know what you think! :D

[melostmo]

hi, very good posts... here's another ,,,THE CABLE IN THE SAND: it leads to Danielle , it's symbolism for there only link to the real world ..
I see this whole story as surreal. What we are all seeing is not the real world, but rather the "LOST" folks interpretation of it. That's why there are MONSTERS, and POLAR BEARS (Walt's probably) , WHISPERS, PITFALLS, BRIDGES TO CROSS... if u look at some of the scenes closely they are surreal,, an example: Hurley and his accountant see a man who apparently jumped or fell and falls past their window, but, neither one even gets out of their chair, to go to the window, as u or I would, to see what has happened !!! they don't even yell, like, OH MY GOD !! ...nothing

[LoStMyMiNd]

I know melostmo that totally cracked me up. But I also see the cable as an umbilical cord

[apocalypsepenguin]

The sea could represent their past lives in a greater society, in which they had much less influence and responsibility. The interior of the island could represent their new, smaller society in which each member is valued and responsible for the other members. The beach would then represent those unwilling to abandon their past lives, and/or unwilling to accept the responsibilities of becoming a member of the new society.

I really like the idea of the sea representing their past lives, or the past in general, or 'the rest of the world'/civilization, and the beach, being a thin boundary between the larger entities of sea and land, also acting as a visual representation of the characters 'crossing the boundary' so to speak and accepting their new home on the island. The lyrics to 'La Mer' mentions 'beyond the sea', and I think this is significant (could be interpreted as 'back home' or some such).

The jungle representing the darkness in men's souls is pretty pervasive, and considering the overall metaphysical/psychological innuendo in the show (hallucinations, ghosts of the past, that sort of thing), and the shady past of almost every character, I can't believe this is coincidence. However, this doesn't necessarily mean the beach and/or the sea needs to fit with this metaphor -- although, I feel that it should. I'm hoping future episodes might make the jungle-beach-sea symbolism (if such there is) a little clearer.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

IMO, Beach = Threshold. Here's a symbolic definition:

**
Threshold: (of a system of symbols, of "another world to live in"): An entryway whereby one crosses the boundary from being outside the "other world" of a tradition to being inside it. Though it may be symbolized by a physical threshold (as to a temple or shrine), it essentially refers to a shift of consciousness from focally attending to a tradition's symbols to subsidiarily attending from them to what they symbolize, which is to say coming to dwell within them.

**

[drabauer]

Bump for new eyes

[JacksGirlfriend]

I'm glad Amy bumped this because I hadn't seen it. It was a very interesting perspective, something I've been thinking about for awhile but hadn't quite put into thoughts. I've definitely been noticing that different aspects of personalities and relationships emerge depending upon the environment.

From a plot perspective, this seems natural. A scary jungle produces scary vibes. A hot beach would tend to promote an irritable mood. Staring at an ocean often brings peace. But from a psychological perspective, all of these environments seem to have their own symbolism: the claustrophobic unknown of the jungle, our twisted inner thoughts and fears; the endless horizon of the sea the freedom to be ourselves and our hope for salvation; the beach, the reality we must live within, caught between the two, full of conflict and emotion.

Each character also seems to have a natural affinity for one place or the other. Kate and Locke are perfectly comfortable exploring the vastness of the jungle (still searching for their true selves). Michael and Jin seem to be seeking their future in the sea (perhaps wrestling less with inner demons). The ones that stay on the beach and have heard whispers in the jungle (Sawyer and Sayid) have perhaps not yet realized the need for self discovery. Others (like Jack) seem to be able to move between each environment with more confidence.

The island is their home now and until they are able to move from one environment to the next without fear or consequences, they will not have reached their redemption.

[Buzzlightweek]

But I think it's pretty good. :-)

LOST is an allegorical psychodrama based on Jungian (or is it Freudian?) psychology where the island represents the human mind, the jungle is the subconscious, the beach is the conscious mind, the "Others" are the Id, and the crash survivors are the "Ego."

The "Others" are shadowy, frightening, primitive people who are barefoot and wear torn clothing, leave no footprints, and are completely at home in the jungle, yet they are inexplicably strong and powerful and appear to have an upper hand on the island. They know the names of the crash survivors and appear to know a lot about what goes on among the "Ego" people, while the crash survivors know little about them...but fear their presence. "This ain't your island; it's our island, and the only reason you're living on it is because we LET you live on it." The leader of the "Others" has a hick accent and wears a bushy, scary looking beard which makes him seem very uncouth and unschooled, yet he is clearly smart or at least crafty. The "Others" make primitive judgments about people like "good," or "bad," as seen when they told Anna Lucia why they took certain people.

Meanwhile, the crash survivors collectively represent the "ego," and individually represent different aspects of the conscious human personality: The Torturer, The Madonna, The Addict, The Glutton, The Con Man, The Runner, etcetera. Locke, the Man of Faith, and Jack, the Man of Science, represent humanity's two separate but contradictory attempts to unite the human mind; the ego and the id; the known and the unknown. Locke favors the hatch, buried deep in the subconscious, with it's irrational button and it's reliance on faith, while Jack prefers war and guns and hiding out in the caves to try to muscle in on an upper hand.

The polar bear, the horse, the ship, and the monster are mysterious and dreamlike and represent manifestations of the subconscious mind...all are images from the crash survivors' former lives...even the drug plane. Charlie experienced his vision on the beach...the conscious mind...because he is The Addict and drugs bring the subconscious to the conscious.

Henry Gale is a clue because at the end of the Wizard of Oz it turns out that Dorothy is merely dreaming...it is all happening within her mind, within the human mind.

This theory works well for a show because it doesn't require an "ending." It is simple but not simplistic, it does not rely on the supernatural or on complicated technological or science fiction suppositions, and it allows for all the fun religious, historical, geographical, cultural, and symbolic references in the show. It does not limit the plot; in fact, it allows for a nearly endless evolution of plot, and allows the show to go in any direction chosen by the writers...yet it's cohesive enough to provide an interesting framework.

Still working on this. Am I the zillionth person to post this???

[ZigbertToshicus]

Great first post! I think this rings true.

But I accept this more as a reading of the symbolic intent of the show, rather than as a theory for what's going on in the "real" world of the Island. I mean, I don't think the Others do what they do because they think of themselves (in the Island world) as having to play out the role of the Id. We could present a long list of things -- the plane crash itself, the electromagnetic machine in the hatch, the meaning of the numbers, etc. -- that aren't explained at all by this theory.

Still, I'm with you on the underlying idea, and I think this is a starting point for understanding what the show is "about." It's about reconciliation of ego/id, or in spiritual terms individual/higher power, modern/primitive, subjective experience/objective reality, and so on. Duality and transcendence.

Since these dualities and the eventual transcendence of them play themselves out across the objective universe and within each person, it's natural that you should find it reflected in individuals' psychologies. I don't know if I'm explaining myself here -- I'm just trying to say that I like your idea but see it fitting into larger theories rather than as a theory unto itself.

[Buzzlightweek]

Ah. Sorry I didn't find those; I did click on the link in the stickied rules, but the link was no longer working.

I don't necessarily think the crash victims are criminals or sociopaths or actual people sent to the island...I like the idea of the island as a single human mind...and the individual characters as facets of that mind.

As a matter of fact, when I was talking about this over the weekend I was thinking, "well, why an airplane crash?" And I thought, well, maybe the crash represents a psychotic break of some kind...maybe the people on the island are a single person with multiple personality disorder...maybe the island is the mind of an insane person who is not integrated. Which led me to consider that there would have to be one main character...and so far, there really isn't.

But then I thought, "eh, I'm thinking about this too much, that's probably too far out there."

And then I read some threads on this board and realized, nope, it's not really that far out there, LMAO.

[raven444]

Ah. Sorry I didn't find those; I did click on the link in the stickied rules, but the link was no longer working.

I don't necessarily think the crash victims are criminals or sociopaths or actual people sent to the island...I like the idea of the island as a single human mind...and the individual characters as facets of that mind.

As a matter of fact, when I was talking about this over the weekend I was thinking, "well, why an airplane crash?" And I thought, well, maybe the crash represents a psychotic break of some kind...maybe the people on the island are a single person with multiple personality disorder...maybe the island is the mind of an insane person who is not integrated. Which led me to consider that there would have to be one main character...and so far, there really isn't.

But then I thought, "eh, I'm thinking about this too much, that's probably too far out there."

And then I read some threads on this board and realized, nope, it's not really that far out there, LMAO.

I could easily see this being a scenario. I especially like the psychotic break idea, and now what amounts to a total loss of sanity in the island. I think if the writers chose this, though, it would piss off a lot of people in the end...

[PandoraX]

I don't think it's that "far out there" either... I in fact see many similarities of my posts to other ideas also, so it's no coincidence we are coming to similar conclusions! But I'm with Zig on this one, I think it is their deeper symbolic meaning, can't take much on face value in this series.

Your ideas seem to draw quite a bit from Jungian concepts... psych major? (I'm a psychiatrist myself :)) I see Freud's ideas with the Id, Ego, Superego and then Jung's ideas of ideal archetypes. I definitely see all of these as present in the show, but not in such a concrete way. For example, I think some may embody aspects of the Id more than others, while some it's the Superego, that it is the internal conflict of this balance (see my theory--Binary Code) which is at the heart... just as it is in real people. We see at times Jack playing the role of the moral authority, and at times he gives into mob mentality. This is in opposition to characters from The Lord of the Flies, for example, where there roles are less fluid.

[LostInWilderness]

Welcome to the board Buzzlightweek. Please read the guidelines in the welcome forum and join in. What link didn't work? I'd like to check that out if you can post it for me.

I'm glad you posted this. We had an old theory that never got much play that I merged yours into. I hope you can read what's already here and expand on your ideas.

[Buzzlightweek]

Heh...I can be so clueless sometimes. It took me several minutes to figure out where my post went. Can't imagine why. Where's the eyeroll smiley??!

LIW: I read the welcome stuff and the forum rules for Theories and Speculation, and there was a link to an index of all the previously posted theories, but when I clicked on it, the thread was no longer valid.

I'm sorry I'm such a tech idiot or I would post it here for you. Or wherever it would be appropriate??

Pandora...I'm way past college and I only took one psych class a billion years ago...during the last millenium...and I don't really remember much about Freud vs. Jung so I'm talking a little bit off the hip. But, I took a lot of literature classes in school so I remember a lot of discussion about Freud and Jung and ego/Id, symbolism, etcetera, from those classes. When I was discussing this idea with someone IRL they asked me, "what about the superego?" And of course, I couldn't even remember there WAS a superego in the first place...but ultimately I decided maybe Walt represents the superego. Special...unusual powers...ability to cross from Id to Ego...playing backgammon opposite Locke, so fairly immersed in the logical mind, but also operating on a different, emotional/primitive level, like with the bird incident.

Again, my apologies to real psychiatrists or psychologists for my general ignorance...but it also occurs to me that writers might stick with the very basic, obvious, relatively well-known aspects of Freudian or Jungian psychology. I tend to think that the more obscure or specialized the knowledge it takes to understand a theory, the less likely it is to be true. ;-)

[jaystao]

Arg! I cant read anymore! I need Sawyers glasses! But this is a really interesting post forgive me..... I particularly like what SHBL's said about 'threshold' to a temple/sacred place. In the Pacific there is a pantheon of Gods, but the main dudes are Tangaroa (sea god) and Tane (God of forests). In Maori mythology the Gods were born within the space between two lovers (Rangi - the earth and - papa the sky, or is it the other way around). The Gods fed up with being between these two, conspired to seperate them and each God inturn pushed but was unsuccessful until Tane used his 'legs and back for leverage and managed to push them apart (this is why it rains, as Papa is weeping over his lost love Rangi). In New Zealand which is quite spacious and 'the forest' jungle is prominant Tane is revered as head of the Gods, however in the rest of the pacific it is Tangaroa (God of the sea which is revered). Anyway, I thought it might interest as worship of Land and sea has always been apart of they mythology/ritual of social structures.

[Son of Locke]

But I think it's pretty good. :-)

LOST is an allegorical psychodrama based on Jungian (or is it Freudian?) psychology where the island represents the human mind, the jungle is the subconscious, the beach is the conscious mind, the "Others" are the Id, and the crash survivors are the "Ego."


Meanwhile, the crash survivors collectively represent the "ego," and individually represent different aspects of the conscious human personality: The Torturer, The Madonna, The Addict, The Glutton, The Con Man, The Runner, etcetera. Locke, the Man of Faith, and Jack, the Man of Science, represent humanity's two separate but contradictory attempts to unite the human mind;

Nice work, Buzz; have you seen Identity (John Cusack, Ray Liotta), http://imdb.com/title/tt0309698/plotsummary? similar in the setting of its conflict and use of character personalities as "archetypes";

not to mention the madonna/whore discussion of "Gilligan's Island" in Dazed and Confused :)

[PandoraX]

Heh...I can be so clueless sometimes. It took me several minutes to figure out where my post went. Can't imagine why. Where's the eyeroll smiley??!

LIW: I read the welcome stuff and the forum rules for Theories and Speculation, and there was a link to an index of all the previously posted theories, but when I clicked on it, the thread was no longer valid.

I'm sorry I'm such a tech idiot or I would post it here for you. Or wherever it would be appropriate??

Pandora...I'm way past college and I only took one psych class a billion years ago...during the last millenium...and I don't really remember much about Freud vs. Jung so I'm talking a little bit off the hip. But, I took a lot of literature classes in school so I remember a lot of discussion about Freud and Jung and ego/Id, symbolism, etcetera, from those classes. When I was discussing this idea with someone IRL they asked me, "what about the superego?" And of course, I couldn't even remember there WAS a superego in the first place...but ultimately I decided maybe Walt represents the superego. Special...unusual powers...ability to cross from Id to Ego...playing backgammon opposite Locke, so fairly immersed in the logical mind, but also operating on a different, emotional/primitive level, like with the bird incident.

Again, my apologies to real psychiatrists or psychologists for my general ignorance...but it also occurs to me that writers might stick with the very basic, obvious, relatively well-known aspects of Freudian or Jungian psychology. I tend to think that the more obscure or specialized the knowledge it takes to understand a theory, the less likely it is to be true. ;-)

Buzz, well, from the perspective of a real shrink, I think you did a fine job of figuring out the overall themes. :)

The superego, however, doesn't have anything to do with the supernatural or anything like that, though. Here's a quick review of Id, Ego & Superego (from the wiki because I am feeling lazy this AM :)):

The ego, superego, and id are the tripartite divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoanalytic_theory) compartmentalizing the sphere of mental activity into three energetic components:

the ego being the organized conscious mediator between the internal person and the external reality.
the superego being the internalization of the conscious extenuated by rules, conflict, morals, guilt, etc.
the id being the source of psychological energy derived from instinctual needs and drives.The ego is kind of the diplomat between the superego, which is like the moral conscience, and the id, which incorporates the impulsive instincts for pleasure. Simplified, just think of the guy in a dilemma, with devil sitting over left shoulder, and angel over right.

[PandoraX]

Nice work, Buzz; have you seen [spoiler="film reference"]not to mention the madonna/whore discussion of "Gilligan's Island" in Dazed and Confused :)

Deep, man... Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep....

[Son of Locke]

Deep, man... Deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep....

Thanks, Pandora. Gotta have as much fun as I can while I'm stuck in this place... :cool:

I think it might be icky to quote myself, but I'm hearing whispers, or perhaps echoes (Eko's?) of the "Psychological Dangers of Domestication" thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=425317#post425317 if you haven't seen it, props to Ace of Diamonds), where I originally posted this:

Just got back from touring the Skinner Box threads, and this seems like a nice, safe place to post...

Been thinking about the sequence of the losties' habitats. RW'ing a lot of 1-5 lately, I noticed Jack refer to their arrival on "the Heart of Darkness" (wondering when Sawyer will pick this up, or whether the Hatch movie collection contains Apocalypse Now) When he confronts Sawyer scavenging the fuselage, Sawyer reminds him, "I'm in the wild."

As their stay has lengthened, the losties have moved literally and figuratively deeper into the dark--from the bright, chaotic, dangerous "edge" on the beach to the slow, rhythmic, suckling spot of the Hatch. and also, as the PDD thread explores, closer to civilization (of some form). While the dark, mysterious, perilous Jungle is still all around them, I wonder if they haven't (temporarily, at least) tamed its threat...

Theater folks, ref. "Into The Woods," a Sondheim musical, about a group of archetypical fairy tale characters (Cinderella, Snow White, Prince Charming, the Big Bad Wolf, Jack--of beanstalk fame--who venture into the Woods to battle a Giant (who herself has lost her husband when Jack cut down the beanstalk) and face their own demons.

More from that thread...I'm curious to see whether the progression doesn't go "deeper" than the Hatch, before emerging again somewhere else. Where does one go once they leave? Only back to the caves or the beach? Perhaps Locke was betting that a trip into the rabbit hole with ol' Smokey back in S1 would get him closer to the beating "heart" of the Island? Perhaps Desmond will enlighten us. Is the choice to live with the Others a coming stage (perhaps of additional domestication?) additional characters will face?

Is Henry Gale's current situation--imprisonment--the next stage facing the primaries? As mentioned in the Dostoyevsky/Percy discussion, Jack, Locke, Sayid, and Eko have all visited Henry's cell, with varying/uncertain results.

Sayid and Locke have, as some have mentioned, reverted (or slipped, at least) from their somewhat redempted states in S1. Jack has made clear (to Gale at least) the rift in the leadership and appears to be trapped in his prison(?) of denial.

All three appear to be trapped, while Eko has transformed, and symbolically marked his release from penitance--by cutting off his beard. Does the marking and cutting of the trees indicate a future living space, and perhaps his higher level of self-determination than the other primaries (the men, at least)?

Weaving blind here, folks, anyone want to take up the pattern?