+ Elements in lost.

[jaystao]

I was interested in how elemental forces seem to play a large part in LOST. Both in a physical sense and as a symbolic/narrative template. I haven’t found a thread that deals primarily with this elemental structure as a whole so I thought a discussion on it would be interesting. This thread intends to deal singularly with the nature of the elements in lost and what they could mean, how they relate to one another and how they tie into other threads and theories of lost.

First of all my thoughts.

I consider the various angles I discuss under these requisites (similar to other threads).

The Mystical: Supernatural (something that is beyond current scientific agreement or understanding) and the Symbolic (something that is representative of an idea or understanding in a narrative sense). The scientific: The mundane (it can be explained by modern sciences and happenstance) and the extraordinary (it is explainable by modern understanding but highly improbable or uncanny).

For instance the sickness could be explained purely in a scientific sense, like supposing there were chemical elements as the origin of ‘the sickness’ (water + rock + blood + your daddy = virus) it may have a mundane fairly scientific understanding yet lead to extraordinary or even supernatural conclusions especially if the out come is open ended (no one knows what the effects of certain phenomenon might be but we can speculate on good evidence).

I would like to put forward some ideas as a starting point to this theory.

There is an elemental equilibrium on the island. This means that there are several elemental forces opposing or complimenting one another to form an ecological hierarchy of sorts. It is an island after all, and in a mundane sense all islands are like this as an isolated biological environment. However, whether it is by extraordinary or supernatural means, there are certain elements that are causing the strange nature and phenomenon (the sickness, the dreams, the monster) of the island to appear and these elements are acting both singularly or in unison with one another.

There is a ‘priori’ elemental nature or force on the island that ties all the elements and their unusual compositions together. This force is primarily neutral or subtle and rather it is the various sub elements and social ordering of the islands habitat that brings about the various agendas and phenomena of the island. As an example I thought that this element could be lithium acting in a variety of forms or some kind of emanation deriving from the islands ‘heart’ irradiating everything and creating certain reactive qualities. Then again maybe it is warped gravity; some kind of crystal holographic effect; a psychological hypnotic acid etc.

The composition of Light and dark as elemental forces in lost play an important role in foreshadowing phenomena and events. They are prime elements (though perhaps not the priori element above) by way of interaction with the island in a physical sense (Photosynthesis/respiration, dark decay, hypothalamus stimulation, dreams etc) and as a symbolic narrative reference where the forces of good and evil are depicted in the duality of light and dark (Greek mythology, yin/yang symbolism, moral choices etc).

A central nexus or understanding is the origin of this priori force. This I propose is the Void, or pure Chaos, which is where all existent forces on the island originate in a mythological sense (Greek, Sumerian, biblical) and a scientific sense (chaos theory, genetics, quantum physics). Wether mystical or scientific in their origin all extraordinary aspects or phenomena of the island spur from this central concept and perhaps its dynamic opposite.

There are many manifestations of elemental forces in Lost. Some are prime elements: Fire and electricity (the spark of invention, primal urges, forces colliding), water (the sea), air (the weather/storm), metal (the fuselage), earth (the island), wood (the jungle), sound? These can be more defined by sub elements that spur from them both in a spiritual and a physical sense.

These sub-elements could be: The islands lakes/ rivers/waterfalls, trees, the black rock, the beach, the cockpit, the fuselage, the sickness, the bridge (symbolic of wood/earth passing over void/air), polar bears (in a symbolic sense and as a product of the island’s nature), blood, sweat, tears, the guns, the raft, the stones, the monster (as an elemental force), rain, the animals (boars, birds, fish), emotions (love, hate, anger, laughter, sadness, remorse, revenge). Thought itself. The batteries. Thunder/ lightning.

Gestalts and transitions: There are also places which act as elemental gestalts and transitionary phases of one element into another. The caves (where earth, dark, water, metal, forest meet) and which is a transition from the beach (light, sea, sand, air and connected by metal), the mountain (significantly the one holding the black rock), storms (as a tempest of elemental forces) and the island itself. These places are also spiritual foundations and pathways in which one can journey. Because they are places of power they maybe dangerous but they may also be save havens.

References:

Elements and science: The Greeks believed in four elements that were tied by one master element. These were water, fire, air and earth. The 5th element was ether, which has also been personified as love or attraction. In more modern scientific times this classical interpretation of the world could be described as magnetism, gravity, strong/weak forces or gas (air), solid (earth), energy (fire), liquid (water). A 5th interpretation is open to debate as it has been postulated in various forms by modern ideas (chaos, space, time).

The elements personified in mythology: The Greeks personified elemental ideas and forces in the form of their celestial Gods (including the Titans who were primordial elements incarnate that the more evolved Gods would eventually usurp in power). These divine forces followed certain lineages back through time deriving from one primal origin which many describe as the dark void or Chaos. From chaos comes earth (gaia) and attraction (Ether), from chaos comes darkness and in that its dual opposite light. Thus night and day are also born….

Chinese thought: Another elemental conception of the world can be found with ancient Chinese thought. Here five pictograms are used depicting the elements of Water, fire, earth, wood and metal. Each element is intertwined with the other elements and even where there is direct opposition, there is also supple interweaving between elements that represent a flow to which all life and nature must journey. This circular inter connection is best represented by the yin and yang symbol. Where forces of light and dark, strong and supple, life and death are in opposition yet have an origin or union with the other.

The island as a reflection of light and dark dual opposites also represents this interconnection with the theme of yin/yang in relation to the black rock. This is the dark element that lies within the light (and vice versa) (it was suggested by some one that there is a white rock within the dark beneath the island, at first I thought this absurd but perhaps it has merit).

Thus one element merges into the next in an ever spiralling transition where progress is not stagnant but continuous from one stage to the next. Each stage is both a microcosm flowing to next and also upwards to the macrocosm of the universe, and vice versa. These pictogram elements also represent crucial moments in ones life, and were both spiritual and physical manifestation of life’s journey. This is important because every step the castaways take is done through transitions of elements that flow into the next (they move from the beach (light), to the caves (dark) but are connected by elemental conjoints (the fuselage wreckage/forest). The sea is a macrocosm, the pool and waterfall a microcosm. This transition is also one of spiritual choice (hope of rescue, hope in survival).

The numbers: even the numbers might represent elemental forces at play as suggested with the five pictograms. I represented each number as a reading of the I-ching (Chinese divination method using the five elements) and came up with results that are strikingly similar to some of the narrative plot lines of LOST (note: only after further reading). The number 4 for instants is the relationship and journey between a youthful student and his teacher (a flowing spring at the foot of a mountain). This ‘is’ the story of boon and lock’s relationship. Where one must ask a series of questions before there is an answer (boon/lock, Charlie/boon, Walt/Michele). Though the readings are enigmatic there is some evidence to suggest that perhaps the writers are using I-ching readings to help develop the narrative of lost through elemental forces at play (try it it’s fun). Check out this sight for more.

i-ching web site (http://www.akirarabelais.com/i/i.html#8)

Elements and psycology: There are many means in which elements play a part as a metaphor for human psychosis (and in that also as a physical reason for behaviour). Once again Neill006’s alter theory has influence.

Freud meets the matrix. (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sageRange?topicID=800.topic&start=1&stop=20)

Here the elemental nature of the island represents an almost operatic psychological war between the Gods and the Titans. The Titans being the primordial elements of the universe as barbaric lords of creation who were in greek mythology usurped by the more evolved ideas that were the Gods who imprisoned the titans deep within the earth. The earth here represents the human subconscious, where our primal titanic urges are still raging and the evolved minds of the Gods (the castaways) must surpress in order to stay in control of their civilised ‘ego’. Which basically means ‘don’t open the hatch!’.

There were other ideas I wanted to explore dealing with elements and I apologise if this is some what winded, anyway I’ll finish off with these quotes.

As human beings, we never fully overcome our Titanic urges. Although banished to the Tartarus of our unconscious, they remain powerful subterranean energies, unconscious motivating forces ever threatening to break the bounds of their imprisonment. Some persons are more aware of the archaic elemental forces within them, engaging in internal battles to keep them under control; others feel at the mercy of unconscious complexes or "horizontal subpersonalities" which are controlling their behaviors while remaining inaccessible to consciousness. - unknown.

Yes, Chaos is the primal state of the universe, an undifferentiated place of being in which there is no pre-conceived, linear ordering. Hesiod writes: Chaos genet and translators make this as "First Chaos came to be". But the word genet, from which the words genos and gene originates, meaning the ultimate unit of heredity. In other words, Chaos is the ancestor of all things. It is a natural state of being that operates without a sense of linear order. Hesiod’s rendition of a cosmology is one in which Chaos is gradually replaced by the divine order and justice of the monolithic Zeus. It is an evolutionary story of lower to higher forms. - Chaos theory and geneology web blog.

Feel free to add your comments if you survived this long.

[Chance Gardener]

Jay, hopefully you won't misunderstand me here, cause this all is pretty interesting, but truthfully, I'm not drunk enough or high enough for this to be discussed properly.



I like to watch

[jaystao]

No offence taken. Its a bit much for me to take in and I wrote it, and now I regret making so many points. I should have put it into segmants on different threads, but it is what it is. I just wanna talk about elements is all. I want to talk about what kind of element the black rock might be? A lava rock? A crystal based solid? An organic compound? A mirror like metal?.......

[Chance Gardener]

Asteroid. First guess. (twilight zone factor - it has psionic properties that enhance/amplify thought/emotion/desire)

Lava dome. Second guess.

Next Jon Tesh venue. Maybe I am drunk enough or high enough guess.

No, really, they are good thoughts, but I think it's more about how we are perceiving the show and its impact on our lives - rather than what the writers are intending as background for the island or the survivors.

[Gambit980]

Jay,
I like your write up on the different perspectives on unlocking this Lost island. I had thought about there being a connection with all of the yin yang elements in this show. For instance.
The white and black rock found in the cave
the black and red pieces used to play connect four
the backgammon pieces
the beach vs the cave
I can't think of any others but I sure there is more.
btw I hope all of you who believe there is no link between science and the supernatural read this post.

[drabauer]

I think this is a wonderful reference Jays tao, and I'm citing it in the Lost Meanings Index (http://www.swedishpoet.com/lostmeaning.html) under Natural. That is, dear responders, I dont' think Jay meant it as a theory per se but as fertilizer for our own observations and theories (correct me if I'm wrong!). This is the kind of post we will return to when new revelations surface.

[jaystao]

I'll go with that. I was actually researching a rather dull theory on genetic mutation (the island as a biological petri dish) and started to get into the idea of elements as a means in which to connect everything (like a periodic table of speculations). Another area I was keen on was 'language' and communication as another Rosetta stone of LOST theory.

Moving on.

The idea of transitions is interesting though. The castaways seem to have found there 'center' or foundation (the caves), but are still clinging to the idea of 'keeping still' (the beach which has parallels to the mountain as a gestalt of elements and also as a vantage point between worlds - both offer exit points from the island). The questions is where will they head to next? They may have to give up the beach for some reason (some danger I suspect, like a storm or an attack). Forcing them to take shelter in the caves, however they also have several choices in relation to exploration. The mountain of the black rock seems to be one ultimate goal but also the hatch is another path. I think they will find black rock before opening the hatch however. The mountain represents balance and also confrontation. It is here that the forces of the story will collide (remember that the 'others' control the tower now). The caves are a microcosm of the mountains macrocosm and is a reverse cycle (dark to light and perhaps to dark again). So my prediction is that they will travel to the mountain after some mucking around and after some confrontation/problem then to the hatch (microcosm?) which may represent fire/electricity (enthusiasm/ingenuity?).

[JacksGirlfriend]

I love the work you put into this and it was an interesting read (I had a little of Chance's drink while I read. He didn't mind. His eyes were glazed at the time.).

I think your rather comprehensive "encyclopedia" is something we will be referencing for quite some time. Although I tend to think the most important aspect of this show is the characters and their relationships to one another (perhaps as a healing/therapeutic device), I do believe that the island plays an "elemental" role in the plot as well.

I'll be checking back here from time to time.

[spooky]

Another area I was keen on was 'language' and communication as another Rosetta stone of LOST theory.

Nice post Jays tao, the elements as master key is interesting. I like the idea of language being important, too. I know I couldn't come up with any master key scenario, but it is an interesting part of the show. I'd like to hear what your thoughts are.

[cccourt]

Jay: I might be putting myself out on a limb here...and then sawing it off...but as a moderator here...I have almost stopped reading the T & S forum. They are repetitive and thoughtless.

WOW.........do you bring something to the equation. I am so glad that I must venture into this realm in order to maintain my job title. This is great. Thank you so much.

ccc

[cccourt]

BUMP

[jaystao]

Ah.... thanks for the encouragement. wow. I'm still trying to root out that rather lame genetic mutation theory (you know the one, mad scientist plays god with life, dices with the forces of nature, creates a monster!) I keep getting waylaid by other tangents. But in hindsight if that were the case, who gives a damn! The avenues that the road it takes to get to any conclusion are far more enlightening/entertaining. Who needs a play station or university subject when you have the lost forum. (Its cheaper to). This is a great way to get people interested in all sorts of subjects, sigh, if only I had this much enthusiasm at high school.

Spooky. Language was my initial idea of what could connect every thing. Language is everywhere in LOST, the mathematical numbers and sequences, the music, the Spanish in the comic book, Shannon reacquainting herself with French, the castaways learning to co-operate.... everything boils down to communication. My original idea was that there was a universal (priori) element that connected everything on the island in a communicative harmony. That trees and polar bears could some how communicate (not talk per say just 'communicate'). In the right harmonic mind frame one can 'feel' and 'hear' this interaction. If light and dark aspects of the island were somehow dispersing some kind of balancing agent then the Polar bears unique qualities (light absorption, adaptability) might have been used as a testing specimen to see what effect such an ecological equilibrium would have on higher organisms not to mention being at the top of the food chain (especially if it allowed some kind of adaptation/nourishment mechanism to form).

If there were a 'hive mind' like social system on the island, that would also mean that maybe there are also parasites. Alien entities that are able to assimilate into the hive and use its resources for their own means. Alternatively the idea of a virus or sickness also fits into this category. This maybe due to some kind of imbalance (like the French science team). If this were the case how would such an entity react to those that might be able to help 'cure' it (the castaways). A living ecology may have some sense of self-awareness but a tree probably couldn't speak English so perhaps some of the phenomena in lost is due to this attempt at communication? Yet the central idea still remains, what elements on the island are forming this communicative discourse if any (what forces are 'effecting' the castaways in such an extraordinary way).

An idea was that metal is somehow an aspect which is in favor of the castaways. As a manipulated substance, the technology is able to overcome the more primordial natures within the island. Ethan didn't seem afraid at all (perhaps thinking the one gun was now obsolete) but seemed to stop in his tracks only when confronted with a gun (and it was raining - metal/water, any connection?). The Polar bear was struck by a metal knife (wimp) (side note, Boon/Shannon, Kate and Walt were all protected in those mangrove like trees at some point). The sheriff had a piece of metal in his torso. I thought it was the water that might inhibit the monster but maybe its metal? In folk lore the demons of limbo were supposedly highly susceptible to iron weapons so maybe this is being used as a metaphor for some scientific explanation as well as the symbolic reference of technology overcoming nature. Also notice how the plane wreckage and water are always connected in some way (it was raining when they arrived at the cockpit also).

Gambit980 In regards to your light and dark reference I thought you might be interested in the link below. You wanted science and mysticism. Look at the image at the top in reference to the quote. It kinda reminded me of the first image in Lost where Jacks eye (microcosm) is a reflection of the sun shining through the trees (macrocosm... sorry I can't help it now). PS look at the other pages its very.... interesting.

(This may change your perception of the world so proceed with caution) www.tortuga.com/science/DNA/6.html (http://www.tortuga.com/science/DNA/6.html)

[kiwipat]

I tend toward the Black Rock being a natural feature of island ie a hunk of lava - a geology common to the Polynesian islands.

There are famous volcanic black rocks all over the Pacific with perhaps the best known examples being the two towers of rock that dominate the centre of Bora Bora, Tahiti, and the lava outcrop at Kaanapaali Beach in Hawaii.

On the island of Rarotonga in the Cook Islands “The Black Rock” is the departure point for the dead on their way back to Hawaiki (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1324.topic)

I think it is also interesting that lava can contain a lot of iron and is known for its magnetic properties - perhaps a reason for the compass being off in Hearts & Minds.

PS. Great elemental analysis Jays!

[jaystao]

I'm leaning towards some kind of natural crystal like formation growing out of the mountain (if that's possible). I was reading an article in the foyer of the local television studio and what do you know it had that old flag boy of conspiracy theories, Tesla. It was half cut out for some reason so you could only read half the paragraph (spooky) but mentioned that he was responsible for some experiments in using crystals for radio sets (I didn't have a enough time to delve further). Looking on the Internet I found some good sites regarding crystals as a natural power source and as a receptor for radio transmissions (though theres a mixture of science meets crank science admittedly).

I agree however, the elements in the Pacific as depicted in Polynesian mythology and in a physical sense are just as interesting and perhaps more applicable because of the shows locale. I've seen the lava rocks in Samoa and its quite impressive. Hawaii has all sorts of mountainous terrain that sports similar sites so its a sure bet that their going to use these locations in the show. If the black rock sports high iron content that could also fit with the idea of the mountain as a gestalt of elements. In occult folklore mountains or places where heaven meets earth, are sometimes described as 'airies' which enhance occult energies and spells (particularly by way summoning and invoking energies from other dimensions). This is represented with the fact that the control tower is on top of the mountain (it enhances radio transmission). Perhaps that is also why black rock and its effect can be found there also.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Jays tao,

I keep coming back and reading your post. My brain's a little dead lately but below are some rock and mineral tid-bits that might be applicable when speculating about some of the mysteries on LOST:

- Lodestone: A type of magnetite with very strong natural magnetic properties, used in early compasses for navigation.

- Magnetite: A mineral with natural magnetic properties that will attract a magnet. It is an ore of iron.

- Mineral: A solid substance found in nature but NOT made by living things. Under proper conditions can form a crystal.

- Obsidian: Natural volcanic glass that forms when lava erupts and quickly cools. (glass in not a conductor, but an insulator)

- Quartz unique property: Quartz has a property called piezoelectricity. If you apply pressure to a quartz crystal, it produces a tiny eletric current, too weak to be noticed without the proper equipment. If an electric current is applied to a thin slice of quartz, the mineral will vibrate a t a rapid, steady rate.

------

You've also got me thinking about alchemy, and I don't mean turning things to gold. I'll see if I can dig up something that applies here.

SHBL

[jaystao]

SHBL. I wish you well on your search. May the force be with you (what ever that is). Geology and biology are actually really interesting areas and I'm glad that this thread is inspiring some analysis on the matter.

Currently I'm heading of into the world of Amino acids (which pretty much make up our DNA and other things). Theres definitely possibilities in both areas so perhaps we can compare notes? A lot of the ideas on this thread sprang from your chaos thread so it will be interesting to see if the two concepts can connect.

On a matter of Chaos and time. I suggested that Chaos was the origin or nexus to which this elemental symposium spurs but in that was the suggestion of a dual opposite. Well from what I read and from a bit of thought, that dual opposite would be time which represents order. Within chaos there is no order, everything happens simultaneously or there is void, in which nothing can exist. Once time exists however then a linear order also comes into being, as possibilities become probabilities eventually collapsing forming events. What I am suggesting from all this is that time might be a major factor in the elemental 'nature' of the island.... more on this later.

Over and out.

[cccourt]

bump

[jaystao]

I promise this is my last foray into longwinded posts. I start it off small. I’d like to talk about the transition and micro/macro cosmic relations I mentioned earlier, where I suggested that the castaways may have to achieve their ‘high’ place before they descend to their low (the hatch). This I proposed was the gestalt of the black rock/tower/mountain. However I was tricked. Each individual maybe following cycles that are at differing levels, Locke is definitely ahead of the game. A hidden card was dealt with the plane/tree/cliff gestalt that was Locke's ‘higher’ place. He needed to go here before he could advance with the Hatch (his receptive earth). Likewise I was thinking, Jack faced a similar high place of danger before he could advance to his next cycle/gestalt. This was the cliff face he fell from but was saved fortuitously by Locke – the cliff was an almost oppositional gestalt to the caves. His father was likewise akin to a flowing river which he was following. Water represents danger/motivation. The cliff was his abyss, which must be overcome before he can find his receptive earth/the caves.

Cannot figure out how to post an image, so this post has stagnated. Sorry.

[jaystao]

The following are excerpts taken from the I ching resource. Which for further understanding of this post is a must read.

pacificcoast.net/~wh/Index.html (http://pacificcoast.net/~wh/Index.html)

Symbols taken from tortuga.com and it was this that I suggested previously may be a recipe for some of the narrative transitional elements and events in LOST.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y191/jaystao/symbols.jpg

Forgive my harsh hand drawn rendering. The above are the numbers represented by the symbols as given by tortuga.com using the 64 hexagram readings of the I-ching to correspond to the 64 types of dna/rna genetic sequencing acids in human cells.

The numbers have two sets of principle symbols because I was unsure as to which side of the circumference to use (as both contain divergent sets of numbers). The yellow I-ching numbers represent the below symbols, and the above set of symbols are in correspondence to the dna representation of the numbers (at least that was my interpretation).

The numbers off set from the centre represent the corresponding numbers in relation to our central numbered sequence depending on which way the centre began and turns, these inturn correspond to other numbers each merging into the next and so on.

Our set of numbers however are special because they are ordered from lowest to highest. This could mean that a: I am completely wrong. B: They are subject to the transition of time (by any interpretation of any chronological event) or C: they are subject to human pre-determination. That is to say, if originally they had manifested randomly, they have been since ordered by some intelligence (both aspects B/C are fundamentally subject to I-ching methodology in fact so is A but only on a syncronistic level).

4: Youthful folly. A pupil seeks a teacher and a series of questions is asked/answered.
8: Holding together. A community comes together through perseverance. Precautions are undertaken.
15: Modesty. Modesty creates success through motivation and intention.
16: Enthusiasm. Through ones actions others are caused to help and aspire.
23: Splitting apart. Troubled times create a disharmony; superior men are best to remain dormant/absent/flowing.
42: Increase. It furthers one to undertake, to discover, to be enlightened, cross the great sea.

Each series of narrative events work both as transitions and as a means unto themselves. Regarding the number 4 for instants. In a series of questions Boone chooses to stay with Locke and a relationship is undertaken (perhaps the best example of a number 4 relationship). Hurly approaches Sayid in Numbers and a series of questions are asked and answered. After Locke saves Jack in ‘White Rabit’ once again a series of questions are asked. Sawyer gets a similar discussion with Locke in Out Laws. Charlie also in the Moth developing a similar pupil/teacher relationship. Locke asks a series of questions when he meets his mother – this relationship is extended (in contrast with his future relationship with Boone) with his father. Walt has a teacher/pupil relationship with his father and with Locke. Sometimes the number 4 works as microcosm transition in the story, sometimes as a macrocosm that ‘is’ the story. This is true to other numbers/events.

Similarly the idea of splitting apart: It works on many differing levels. Physically the castaways are splitting apart with some dissention, the plane actually splitting, the beach/caves. In the search for Ethan/Clair the team splits to follow two divergent paths with some dissention. In Numbers (which has clear pattern to the ordering of the ‘numbers’), Hurly and Charlie are split from Jack and Sayid. Charlie imposes disharmony to Hurlies enthusiasm – the two are further split with both running in opposite directions it comes full circle with a series of questions asked and enlightenment found (42) and an increase (batteries, knowledge). Boone must leave Locke near the end of DEXM to climb the plane and Locke remains dormant below. Splitting can also mean a spiritual/political disharmony or something which is an unseen inner dissention. Where inferior forces weaken the strength of the superior man.

Here are a few ideas about the I-ching.

It is set in relation to eastern elemental cycles in the life/cosmos that today’s psuedo science calls biorhythms (where a persons life is directed by their relationship with chemical/chi cycles and similar corresponding rhythms in their environment). This connects in someway to the spiral idea and maybe disconnect.

It is considered by many to perhaps be the oldest book in the world, predating the bible and is based on even older ancient primordial shamanistic rituals using bones that were eventually replaced with yar sticks.

It is considered the first man made computer system in the world and was the basis for modern day binomial computer language.

Along with the like minded philosophy/literature of tao te ching it has influenced every aspect of Chinese traditional thought and has helped stimulate the foundations of modern ideas in linguistics, psychology (Jung) and sciences such as chaos theory, quantum physics and modern day computer language.

It has its origin in nature (of self and of world), to which all knowledge derives and a further understanding can be gained. …..

Building fires/staring into the oblivion: Something I noted in the show is the constant background activity of collecting fire wood and the staring into said fires by the castaways. In fact staring into oblivion is similar to becoming a state of wu -chi or nothing to achieve absolute concentration, a well spring before a state of oneness is developed - Tai chi, a factual state of the yin/yang dual opposites where creativity is developed/expressed.

My idea is based on this excerpt: “Fu Hsi was watching his camp fire one night and noticed within it three logs that reminded him of a trigram. As he walked around his campsite, he happened to see the same three longs, but from the opposite side of the fire pit. It was at this point that a great enlightenment washed over him, and he began on the path of his work which would be memorialized in the I Ching”.

That is the divination methods of interpreting the present to foretell the future can be found in observing nature. What if the castaways are unknowingly developing I-ching methods in their observations, methods which are somehow ‘influenced’ by some higher order. Locke says the island is telling him what to do, maybe he sees the ‘trigrams’ as Fu Hsi did and is following a path set by these naturally occurring oracles/patterns (but possibly supernatural in their origin). Others may also be influenced subconsciously by these same said trigam readings (or something similar). Which hooks into the idea of Neil’s virtual world, or matrix theme. The island as some kind of super computer, using the simple I-ching based sciences as a foundation. Likewise the castaways are somehow enhanced, seeing the natural states of I-ching like patterns in the world.

Another idea of factuals and the I-ching is found in a supposed proof of the I-chings readings as a practical method of interpreting probabilities in this link –

members.tripod.com/~wu_wei2/Chapter_7_arguments.html (http://members.tripod.com/~wu_wei2/Chapter_7_arguments.html)

The method in this thesis used binomial distribution techniques to discover the link within the I-ching and its physical practicality and its supposition was that this is because the 64 hexagram ‘maths’ of the I-ching is correct and in correlation with some kind of cosmic/life matrix. This thesis relates to the sort of formula brassmunk’s uses in his numbers theory.


A hexagram, just like a trigram, is called a gua. This word can be defined as a "pile of divinatory information". But this word only describes a physical or visual object, it does not explain what a hexagram is, just what it looks like. When the Chinese talk of the idea behind a hexagram they talk of a shi, which is often translated by "moment". But what is a moment, both for the Chinese and for us westerners? For Westerners it is "a short period of time", an indivisible, ephemeral unit of time. We tend to think of this as the smallest such unit (at least in common language - it is obvious that some sciences use extremely short units of time to measure events). The Chinese have a totally different concept for the moment. A moment is a situation. It is the son of the past and the father of the future. This word, shi, is used in different ex-pressions to talk about seasons, times zones, chances, opportunities. A situation is far from indivisible, quite the opposite: it is a fence which holds together all of the related moments of an event, which are seen as a whole.

Let us use the word situation to talk about what happens inside a hexagram. This word can clear up a number of points. A situation can be seen in two different ways, and have two totally opposite interpretations. Seen from the outside, a situation seems frozen, not without a relationship to what came before it, but independent of this context, because you can only see the actual moment, and not its evolution. On the other hand, seen from the inside, a situation is quite different. The moment that is seen is lived through, and when you are on the inside you have to distinguish the relationship between the past and the future. It is dynamic, and you can not separate it from what came before it. It is just as difficult to envisage a moment without taking into account its possible evolution, what it may become, whether desired or not, because these evolutions are all present, in the form of possibilities. The relativity of the point of view changes the way the moment is perceived.

Again, the basic structure of the trigram begins with the polarity stated by Jung as introversive and extroversive. The lower Trigram stands for a person's attitude to their inner world, the upper trigram stands for their attitude to the outer world. The basic law of this system of Chinese thinking is that by changing your attitude to life, both inner and outer, you can effectuate a change in your fate. It is a pragmatic philosophy of taking responsibility for your life and creating your own reality.

The I Ching "constrains chance" as Mandelbrot says, by ordering the random process with a mathematical structure which correctly mirrors the Universe. It works because of the mathematical structure of the hexagrams themselves. This structure is the "base two" number system to the sixth power, the six yin or yang lines in the hexagram. One of the first Europeans to see the hexagram structure when it was first brought out of China in the early 1700s was Gottfried Leibniz. He is the German philosopher and mathematician who first developed base two mathematics in the West. Today the base two number system has become the cornerstone of all modern technical culture. All computers operate on a machine level using a base two binary code of off or on, 0 or 1, or as the Chinese would say, Yin and Yang.

The five Hsing also correspond to the five dimensions, five stages of evolution and five stages of human development:

5-0 Holy Sage Awareness TAO, (GOD)
4 The Called One Waking Man
3 Superior Man Reflection Animal
2 Worthy Man Dream Plant
1 Common Man Sleep Mineral

The aim of Man at each stage of development is different:

1. Common Man looks for material goods. This is the stage of the vast majority of the contemporary world; commercial, consumer striving for more and more things.

2. Worthy Man looks beyond materialistic consumerism and strives for growth and education. He imitates superior man.

3. Superior Man knows that he can only make sense of life and create meaning if he unites TAO and TE, intention and motivation.

4. But the political situation, greed and power can make the existence of Superior Man impossible. The Called Man, who has the task, "Ming", from heaven, will change the political situation.

5. The highest human stage, the Holy Sage, is in tune with heaven, earth, and the TAO. His mere existence makes him into a living pillar around which a culture might grow. In anthropological terms he is a "culture hero".

Another idea that I had was that the castaways might be showing characteristics based on the rhythmic cycles of the Chinese calender. That is to say the year that they were born. There are threads on how astrology might influence the castaways, these cycles are carried in sets of 12. So it might be interesting if this had any influence in the dual opposition of the castaways, their behaviour or in their various connections. Walt/Boone/Locke. Hurly had a rooster on his shirt in one episode which is a Chinese year. I wonder if there is a year for red herrings as well.

Forinstants the year of the DOG: 1946, 1958, 1970, 1982, 1994, 2006.

[boonian androphile]

Jays Tao:

This is such cool stuff. I certainly need more time and reading to process it all. Just so that I can one semi-intelligent response I recall (from the Michael/Walt rerun) that Boone was wearing the 4 aces shirt. That would symbolically fit your characterization of him as being in youthful folly. And I wonder if the year of the Rooster concept pertains to the current Chinese animal symbol. Another wink from the writers? I half wonder if the deaths will follow the 4 8 15 16 23 42 number chain. 8 is holding together: perseverance and precaution. Any character with 8 in his/her life? Sorry if any of this has been said/inferred before. Probably has in the numbers thread.

[boonian androphile]

would also help if I proof read my responses:

"Just so that I can----offer?----one semi-intelligent response..." Require a syntax/context checker as well. The spell check only goes so far.

[jaystao]

No need to worry to much about syntax and spelling, I spend half my life correcting myself. Enough to maintain a competant enough means of communicating ones thoughts is sufficiant. However your idea that the numbers could be some 'final destination' curse cycle might be interetesting and works with some of the mystery (how many died in Hurleys curse/hex?).

I used the term hex just now which is referring to the hexagrams I mentioned above, because in traditional chinese folk lore hexagrams could be used to carry a curse. Its all in the numbers. Munipulating ones destiny or fate in away by changing or incorperating a set of 'i-ching' hexagrams into thier biorythmic flow or some such yada yada. Chinese mystics and witches used it. This is called placing a 'hex' and these have both negative and positive consequences. I'm familier with the concept through watching chinese fantasy cinama so I'll have a further look into it.... be back later.

[jaystao]

""""The idea of transitions is interesting though. The castaways seem to have found there 'center' or foundation (the caves), but are still clinging to the idea of 'keeping still' (the beach which has parallels to the mountain as a gestalt of elements and also as a vantage point between worlds - both offer exit points from the island). The questions is where will they head to next? They may have to give up the beach for some reason (some danger I suspect, like a storm or an attack). Forcing them to take shelter in the caves, however they also have several choices in relation to exploration. The mountain of the black rock seems to be one ultimate goal but also the hatch is another path. I think they will find black rock before opening the hatch however. The mountain represents balance and also confrontation. It is here that the forces of the story will collide (remember that the 'others' control the tower now). The caves are a microcosm of the mountains macrocosm and is a reverse cycle (dark to light and perhaps to dark again). So my prediction is that they will travel to the mountain after some mucking around and after some confrontation/problem then to the hatch (microcosm?) which may represent fire/electricity (enthusiasm/ingenuity?).""""

Dont mean to bump my own thread (yes I do), and I'm bored (only a bit). But I was reading this post I did way back on the first page and felt like patting myself on the back (which I am). Granted the black rock wasn't on 'the mountain' (though perhaps there was some confusion since I thought the black rock/control tower would be 'higher up' - which it was) but I pretty much summed up a lot of the events occuring in the 1st season finale. Though perhaps its too vague or obvious I dont know.........

Anyway, I'm still very interested in anyone who could come up with an elemental 'cyclic' map to the events in lost (marcrocosm/microcosm) because I think everything runs in cycles. In this way perhaps we can predict where the narative will go to next......

[clayseason1]

Random thoughts on balance

Could the island be the nexus of our world or many worlds? Perhaps if it is. Perhaps it must maintain a certain balance or equilibrium in order for the world(s) to remain stable.

I've been thinking about lost's "Adam and Eve". My first impression when they were discovered was not that they were laid to rest there, but more like - Adam and Eve, upon completing the end game (balance restored as signified by the black and white stones) chose this as their final resting place. (That doesn't fully explain it but it's the best I can do.)

Are the survivors responsible for an imbalance? Did their choices so upset the stability of our reality that they were sent to the island to restore balance to the core of our universe(s)?

Do the "others" take people to even up the sides in the struggle to restore balance?.....or is it a primoridal struggle for control of the light and dark aspects of fate? Now "Zeke Gorton" has drawn a line. Does the line separate North and South? The stage now appears set for the struggle to take place.

foreshadowing? (click on the image to enlarge and look at the center of the turbine)
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2892/snapshot200601070736266et.th.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/my.php?image=snapshot200601070736266et.jpg)

Eko's words to his brother - "Yemi, I understand that you live in a world where righteousness and evil seem very far apart, but that is not the real world."

[jaystao]

I've been thinking about lost's "Adam and Eve". My first impression when they were discovered was not that they were laid to rest there, but more like - Adam and Eve, upon completing the end game (balance restored as signified by the black and white stones) chose this as their final resting place. (That doesn't fully explain it but it's the best I can do.)

Like they won the final 'test' of the islands end game. They made a choice - to stay (and their conflict was done).

Anyway, bumping because I have nothing else to do and this was one of the first things I ever posted way back mid first season. I still use it as the basis of much of my wriiting so its worth a read at least.

[yung23]

i think its rose and bernard..


"we'll never leave rose"

[Frecklestoo]

:Booky: Okay, I'm no scientist and especially not a chemist. But since we're talking elements, I looked up the periodic table of the elements to see what elements were associated with you guessed it...the numbers. This is what I found and like I said I'm no scientist, so you'll have to form your own conclusions. I included info about each element that could be related to Lost in some way:

4= Beryllium (Be) A non-magnetic metal. Aquamarine and emerald are precious forms of beryllium. Beryllium is used as a structural material for high speed aircraft, missiles, spacecraft and communication satellites. It is transparent to x-rays.

8= Oxygen (O) A gaseous element. The gas is colorless, odorless and tasteless. Liquid and solid forms are pale blue and are strongly paramagnetic. The human body is 2/3 oxygen and water is 9/10 oxygen. Oxygen is the main illuminating substance in the Aurora Borealis.

15=Phosphorus (GR. phosphoros) light bearing; ancient name for the planet venus when appearing before sunrise. Never found free in nature, it's widely distributed in combination with minerals. Phosphate rock is an important part of the element. Large deposits are found in Russia, Morocco, Florida, Tennessee, Utah, Idaho and elsewhere. It's very poisonous. It is an essential ingredient of all cell protoplasm, nervous tissue and bones.

16= Sulfur. Referred to in Genesis as brimstone. Found in meteorites. Occurs native in the vicinity of volcanoes and hot springs. Sulfur is a component of gunpowder. Used in making fertilizer. It's a good insulator. Sulfur is essential to life. It's a minor constituent of fats, body fluids and skeletal minerals. Has unusual optical and electrical properties.

23= Vanadium. Found in phosphate rock and certain iron ores. Found in small percentages in meteorites. Used to produce a super-conductive magnet with a field of 175,000 gauss.

42= Molybdenum. A metal used in aircraft parts. Obtained form molybdenite, does not occur naturally. Biologically, as a trace element, is necessary for nitrogen fixation and other metabolic processes. Essential for plant foliage growth.

What i'd like to know is what happens when certain of these elements are combined. But, I don't know where to look for this info. Okay, that's my 2 cents on this subject...hope it was a valid contribution!:Hippy:

[yung23]

freckles, some of us here have played with those ideas, but they never really went far to my knowledge. and I think you've taken jays "elements" in the wrong context.


but let us know if you find any combo material :)

I'd be interested for sure.

[jaystao]

I think the relationship with our numbers and the elemental compositions they relate too will come up eventually, since everything eventually does. Its bound to happen. Sulphur (Kates shower) and phospherus (apparently what the invisible door hatch mural was made from) are both found in the hatch for instance. I spent a long time fidling around with that particular elemental composition for instance and how it might be applied to 'opening' the hatch (before they found the revolving door). There are some interesting compositions found in regards to 'how to make a soft metal into steel' for instance and in terms off unbreakable glass (which are properties that I looked up). Some of the elements that go into Heroin are also interesting though none of them at this point seem to converge in one specific union of our numbers as elemental super combination. Berilium is an interesting element in itself, though I'm sure Yung can tell you about that and I see that you've found the space craft stuff (its also one of the first elemental structures existant at the begining of the Universe). Actually I quite like how you've given a list of possible attributes in regards to each use of these elements - keep it up becuase in terms of speculation and predictions some of these ideas and these elements in particular I'm sure are going to come round!

In terms of elements for instance, one of the weirdest theories I've ever presented was that 'lithium' was the universal element connecting everything, and it was being used to help 'iradiate' matter on the island. The weired part of the theory was that air conditioners in planes were using 'lithium' based materials or something like that, so when the plane was zapped the lithium reacted causing a chain reaction in the air being processed in the vents. Thus when the gas masks were being breathed into the irradiated air was in some way causing them to pass out and achieve a state of 'higher' nervana. However I think the gas in the masks might have been from another source unrelated to the air conditioning. It was pretty wack anyway....

[Frecklestoo]

freckles, some of us here have played with those ideas, but they never really went far to my knowledge. and I think you've taken jays "elements" in the wrong context.


but let us know if you find any combo material :)

I'd be interested for sure.

I suppose I could have taken it in the wrong context, but look at all the aspects of Lost that can be interpreted in multiple ways. I just took it literally and looked into how that might apply.:)

[jaystao]

Its an old by gone thread. Any contribution is appreciated and you did a good job in your research. Like I said, come up with some scenario in which the 'elements' might be specifically referenced (like the sulphur and the phosperas sorta) and you might have something there. As for a combo of effect, I really did wonder what mixing all these elements might cause?