View Full Version : Michael is a moron
sawyerhasbestlines
05-18-06, 03:03 PM
Michael is a moron.
Why didn't Michael just sail into the Losties camp and say, "here's the deal, there are some pod people with stupid names on the north side of the island who have Walt. They want me to bring 4 of you or I don't get Walt back. So let's all of us go and ambush them muthasuckas."
That episoded was more dead than all the Ethans.
Seat 42A
05-18-06, 03:10 PM
That would've been the smart thing to do. Probably the simplest thing. But maybe he was worried that the Others were watching. They knew that the Losties had captured Fake Henry. How they knew that I'm not sure. Maybe he was worried that they were watching somehow.
mrfrankie
05-18-06, 03:12 PM
Either bad writing or it just shows Michael's poor planning skills. He could have told everyone in the hatch about the IMs from the get-go. That would have given him better odds in the jungle. I can't believe he didn't think it was a trap anyway.
What kind of idiot trying to find a secret location holds a gun to a guy he just found? Why not FOLLOW him. Duh.
Michael hasn't been thinking clearly ever since Walt was taken. Heck he didn't think too clearly when Walt was right next to him. His goal in life is to protect Walt. 100% only thing on his mind.
He should have told everyone about the computer conversations, but I think that the messages told him to go alone. So, he followed instructions. Now they're telling him to lead 4 of his fellow losties into a trap and he'll get Walt and he's going to follow instructions. I think they could have gotten him to do about anything.
interplanetjanet
05-18-06, 03:22 PM
Because Michael has lost it--he's had some sort of mental break, and he's no longer rational. He has one plan, and he can't deviate from it. Possibly helped along by some drugs during his 10 days with the others.
I'm more concerned that our fusies aren't more suspicous. I guess Jack, who is crushingly unintuitive (no bedside manner), blames Michael's behavior on Jack's failure to organize an earlier search party?
Maybe the reason the 4 all start out with him will be that there is actual communication (!!!!) and Sawyer, Kate, and Hurley are all in on the plan. Otherwise, I'd expect Sawyer (who invited Sayid) and Kate (who saw Michael pushing Hurley to go) would balk at traipsing out after Michael.
sawyerhasbestlines
05-18-06, 03:26 PM
I'm more concerned that our fusies aren't more suspicous. I guess Jack, who is crushingly unintuitive
"Crushingly unintuitive" Lol!
If I was Michael, I'd be a little worried about someone re-winding the observation tapes of him letting Fenry go, and then killing AL and Libby.
What kind of idiot trying to find a secret location holds a gun to a guy he just found? Why not FOLLOW him. Duh.
Well, it seems that after retrospection, Mike came to the same conclusion. That is afterall the story that he told Jack in the box with the rest of the canned losties.
Lets not be quick to blame stupidity on the characters or the writing. Instead, why not consider that the past two weeks in lost time have taken place in how much real world time? Is it possible that we as real worlders might have a different perspective and motive than those that might be under the actual show time? We have had time to think over and over, for starters. Most of the botched decisions of late have come of the quick unrational snap decisions that the losties make.
Edit: spelling
mrfrankie
05-18-06, 03:35 PM
Hi Plane. I responded to this thread because I think Michael is a moron. No, really. I think his failure to organize his thoughts and come up a reasonable plan to find his son and then free Fenry are part of his character. The stress of the events simply accentuates his flaws. Since its part of his character, its part of the plot line and will catch up to him soon. I really don't think its poor writing but it is irritating.
If they were all rational we would have a bland series of events. Unless, of course, we can turn this show into a "Choose Your Own Adventure."
Either bad writing or it just shows Michael's poor planning skills. He could have told everyone in the hatch about the IMs from the get-go. That would have given him better odds in the jungle. I can't believe he didn't think it was a trap anyway.
What kind of idiot trying to find a secret location holds a gun to a guy he just found? Why not FOLLOW him. Duh.
Micheal doesn't have any planning skills or common sense.
His way of saving his son at the season start was to run screaming Wwwaaaaaaaaalllllttt at the top of his lungs after a glimpse of an Other. He knew that group had killed, what on earth did he expect to do if they had found him? He ran the risk of getting his silly ass killed in front of his boy. They already had tried to kill him by burning the boat.
He gets a message that can't he can't prove is from Walt, so he immediately turns on everyone to going running off alone in the jungle again. At least this time he shut up. He has no idea how many he'll face or how well armed they are.
Now he's willing to possibly get all of his friends killed, he went along with the Others plan without a second thought. And he knows Walt is alive,not the happiest kid, but not in any real danger.
The only reason not to warn anyone is if he knows there is a mole in the camp. He was alone with Alex for a few minutes and we don't know what she may have told him.
But it still seems foolish to believe they'll just Walt go after all they went through to get him.
sawyerhasbestlines
05-18-06, 03:56 PM
I'm convinced that any acts that involve Michael trying to save WAAALLLT, will only result in Walt getting killed.
He should just let the others have him, and negotiate some visiting rights. It's the same situation he had with Walt's mother. What's the difference? He should think of it as boarding school. I have more faith in Walt protecting himself than Michael protecting him.
"Hi, my name is Waaalllt, my dad is a murderer."
boonian androphile
05-18-06, 03:57 PM
I was rather hoping that Nurse Ratchett---I mean the very creepy Miss Clue would have showed Michael all the cameras and said: We know your every move. I know that idea would have worked better if Ana Lucia was a genuine target (of the Others...) and not just the last person in the hatch who also conveniently handed Michael the gun. But still. It would have heightened the paranoia. Also, the episode without a flashback (from Michael in particular---would have made more sense to have a better Adrift flashback here perhaps TPTB!!!!) didnt quite work for me, although I did not think it the worst episode of the year either. Episode 12, 13, or 14 perhaps? Not the second to the last one for the love of all things Lost!
longlostluvr
05-18-06, 04:01 PM
Hi Plane. I responded to this thread because I think Michael is a moron. No, really. I think his failure to organize his thoughts and come up a reasonable plan to find his son and then free Fenry are part of his character. The stress of the events simply accentuates his flaws.
I, for one, do not think that Michael is a moron. Completely and utterly out of his friggin' mind, but not a moron. You know those artist-types :). Anyway, I agree with you wholeheartedly, mrfrankie about the stress of the situation accentuating Michael's character flaws.
In addition, I also feel that in Michaels current frame of mind :hypnotize :tired: he feels betrayed by JACK and the other Losties. When it was revealed that Walt had been kidnapped by the Others no one shared his pain and loss (well, Shannon did, but look what happened to her). Clearly, Michael is an emotional sort of guy and established a quick attachment to his son, Walt. Mind you, I'm not making excuses for Michael's recent actions, for he is still a murderous maniac, but let's go easy on calling him a moron, at least for now.
Leofoenget
05-18-06, 04:04 PM
Sayid realizes Michael is "compromised" and if you notice Locke marching off into the jungle my guess is going back to the new hatch. I bet he will go start watching some video tapes and see Michael shoot Anna and Libby and team up with Sayid and help save the group possibly next season. I dont' think Michael will survive long, I believe he will be the next to go. I also believe the Dog plays much more of a role in all this than we realize.
my 2c
jan
sawyerhasbestlines
05-18-06, 04:04 PM
I was rather hoping that Nurse Ratchett---I mean the very creepy Miss Clue would have showed Michael all the cameras and said: We know your every move. It would have heightened the paranoia.
More paranoia to completely push him over the deep end would be better. I actually fell asleep watching the show, more gripped to my pillow, and rewatched it later.
Eko, will enjoy some rewound Episodes of Michael's slaughtering AL and Libby. I eagerly await him gathering his jesus stick and going after Michael. I'd also like to see Mr. Friendly with his lasso go against Eko and his Jesus stick.
longlostluvr
05-18-06, 04:06 PM
I'm convinced that any acts that involve Michael trying to save WAAALLLT, will only result in Walt getting killed.
He should just let the others have him, and negotiate some visiting rights. It's the same situation he had with Walt's mother. What's the difference? He should think of it as boarding school. I have more faith in Walt protecting himself than Michael protecting him.
"Hi, my name is Waaalllt, my dad is a murderer."
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: LMAO!
I stand corrected. I like your ideas better!
Bob Sacamano
05-18-06, 04:12 PM
Who is the bigger fool - the fool or the fool that follows him?
At least Micheal's moronic actions are understandable - I wouldn't expect that most parents would approach his situation much differently.
But Jack is so detached from anything resembling reality that he would blindly follow Micheal's plan - remember that Army you wanted to organize, Doc? - and doesn't even have the common sense to realize that Micheal has been through a trauma and may not be thinking clearly. You'd think that Jack's sense of detachment and aloofness - two of his more alluring qualities - would have led him to placate Michael and then consider his options (like Sayid).
boonian androphile
05-18-06, 04:12 PM
Hi, my name is Walt, and my dad is a murderer.
Hi, my name is Alex, and my mom is an insane French chick who lives in the ground.
mrfrankie
05-18-06, 04:14 PM
I'm convinced that any acts that involve Michael trying to save WAAALLLT, will only result in Walt getting killed.
He should just let the others have him, and negotiate some visiting rights. It's the same situation he had with Walt's mother. What's the difference? He should think of it as boarding school. I have more faith in Walt protecting himself than Michael protecting him.
"Hi, my name is Waaalllt, my dad is a murderer."
V. Funny. I actually kind of wondered that myself. If some group more powerful than I had kidnapped my baby I would just ask them to keep me too! I mean, if he got him back, where is he going to go?
Lost Luvr, I'll be nice. No more name calling. I know those artist types all too well.
redsoxgalbeme
05-18-06, 04:40 PM
"Crushingly unintuitive" Lol!
If I was Michael, I'd be a little worried about someone re-winding the observation tapes of him letting Fenry go, and then killing AL and Libby.
You mean like Eko? He pointedly told him that dog/hell story to unsettle him. Seems to me Eko has seen a little more from those observation cameras in the Pearl than he's letting on. But he's a murderer himself regardless of what image he's been putting out there for us all season. Let's not forget that fact. Self-made man of the cloth - yes, murderer - also yes.
Jack is a stump-head. He couldn't figure out what to do with an intuitive thought if it jumped up and bit him in the stump.
2 things I noted last night that were an exact replica of scenes that happened before which were;
1. Jack is trying to convince Eko to come to the funeral service and he's not having any part of leaving the computer. Jack finally turns his head, rolls his eyes and walks away from him sitting at the computer waiting to push the button, perfectly happy and intent to do just that. The same thing happened in the beginning of the season with Locke sitting at the computer waiting to push the button and Jack trying to convince him it's not important. So he turns away, rolls his eyes and walks out leaving him sit there.
2. Miss Klu says to Michael, 'for someone who claims to love his son so much, you don't know much about him'. The lawyer (I think it was) said the same thing to him when he was trying to get custody. Perhaps the words were a bit different but it was a premeditated jab at his character nonetheless.
sawyerhasbestlines
05-18-06, 04:57 PM
Redsox,
Good points. I like the idea that Eko may have already seen the tapes. And yes, he's a fellow murderer too, but I thought he might have a semblance of emotional attachment for Ana L and Libby since he hung with them for awhile.
I too, noticed that Miss Cluefree used the lawyerly stuff on Michael again. In fact, in another thread, I said: Lawyers only ask questions they know the answers to beforehand." One of the reasons I think Michael is a moron. His BS detector should be ringing bells, or at least his dejavu detactor. Does this man not learn a thing from prior experiences. I'm thinking Miss Clueless has a pre-island understanding of Michael's situation. She sure behaves like a lawyer.
MarkIsARealBoy
05-18-06, 05:07 PM
Michael is a moron.
Why didn't Michael just sail into the Losties camp and say, "here's the deal, there are some pod people with stupid names on the north side of the island who have Walt. They want me to bring 4 of you or I don't get Walt back. So let's all of us go and ambush them muthasuckas."
That episoded was more dead than all the Ethans.
Who says the sail boat is for him?
sawyerhasbestlines
05-18-06, 05:10 PM
"Sail into camp" is used in that context meaning "stroll into camp", "wander into the camp", etc. I was not referring to the sail boat at the end of the show. Re-read, as you are missing the entire point.
stoned_raider
05-18-06, 05:49 PM
I was also really really annoyed by the lack of communication thing reaching a climax this episode. It could have been so easy for Michael unless the others did think Michael would try to arrange an ambush and they want to attack the beach. The only other thing I can think of is they injected Michael with the "vaccine" (the cure is worse than the disease) and it caused him to think irrationally. It would support my idea that it was Rosseau who actually had the disease or vaccine and killed off her team for the others in attempts to get Alex back. But yeah unless they have some other explanation it's just bad writing.
sawyerhasbestlines
05-18-06, 06:00 PM
Another reason that Michael is a moron, is that he believes Walt was actually typing at the computer. :eek::eye-poppi He's a creative guy, someone creative would come up with a multitude of alternative scenarios.
Again, Walt is probably better off at the testing center. Miss Clue reminds me of Michael's wife. Not in looks but in how she handles him.
ILikeLostBrunettes
05-18-06, 06:15 PM
I guess a distraught father will believe anything if it has to do with his son.
watch this , it'll make you feel much better.
http://hurtyelbow.typepad.com/hurtyelbow/2006/05/lost_season_fin.html
sawyerhasbestlines
05-18-06, 09:03 PM
^^^^:naughty::clap:
NokomisIsABadRobot
05-18-06, 09:14 PM
His goal in life is to protect Walt. 100% only thing on his mind.
I 100% disagree. I think Michael's goal in life is to sit Walt down in a chair beside him so he doesn't have to be bothered by him at all. All this screeming ranting raving BS from him is a farce! He doesn't want his ''son'' back, he just wants his own life to be simpler again. Walt running through the woods (season one) means Michael has to deal with him possibly getting hurt or lost. Walt talking to Lock means Michael might possibly have to talk to him himself. Anything and everything that possibly makes Michael's little world have a bump in it.. he's all over Walt for. Its a kid Michael.. not a damn doll you sit on a shelf. And it's Michael's guilt over never fighting for his 'son' that drives his need to get him back right now..not some magical love he's developed for him in 3 weeks.
As to why he didn't just follow peeing man... that was a set up. As soon as Michael announced himself to the guy, bearded man was right behind him. It was a trap they set to capture Michael, and as usual... he fell right into it by trying to take the easier way of forcing the peeing man to take him to the camp instead of exercising some patience and following him.
I hate Michael and cant wait until his death scene!!!!!!!
Excellent points NokomisIsABadRobot.
After he separated him from Locke the first thing he did was ignore him for a golf game.
At the airport he tried to pawn him off on his mother, turning into superdad who would murder so coldly seems a little odd.
I have to say it again , the syndrome that affects many of the losties donttellmewhatIcantdo, he's a stubborn idiot. He didnt want the one person that treated the kid with respect near Walt, that is Locke. He said he wanted to see Walt but when his mother died Brian had to make him take Walt, he wasnt there fighting to get Walt then was he? Pride and arrogance not a pleasant combo.
PsychoFish
05-18-06, 09:55 PM
Michael is a moron.
Why didn't Michael just sail into the Losties camp and say, "here's the deal, there are some pod people with stupid names on the north side of the island who have Walt. They want me to bring 4 of you or I don't get Walt back. So let's all of us go and ambush them muthasuckas."
That episoded was more dead than all the Ethans.
i so agree with you ... he has to much luck and is not acting very secret...
at least sayid is clever enough to discover him ;)
let's blast the others and michael from the island!!
lostchild
05-18-06, 10:41 PM
I say Michael dies next week
Michael seems like the guy who got pushed around all his life. The ease with which Walt's mother manipulated him and his whining nature during all those scenes.
He's a wimp who is shoved around by life.
He grudgingly takes his son, tries to get grandmom to take him. No dice. He's a wimp once again.
He gets to the island, Walt is taken and he FINALLY can be the righteous dad, the mighty, fearless warrior out to rescue his son. He is in the RIGHT and is a man to be admired and revered. He snaps at Jack,"Do you have a son?" No, no. Only the mighty Michael has a son!!!!
Instead of the guy who gets hit by a car in NY....a car that also shows him no respect by not even stopping. His name should have been Ben Dover.
Anyway, I think it's all about Michael....... not Walt.
But then, I have a cynical outlook !
Sals
Last2BLost
05-18-06, 11:26 PM
I can see why they made Michael the way they did, they are driving the Michaels way or the highway. But what kind of pull did Michael earn with Jack... I mean Jack will yell back a Locke at any given time. But then Michael gives ultimatims Jack doesn't stand up for logic. So I feel it is not so much Michael or the actor that plays Michael (at least for me). It is more like Michael has never been close to anyone on the island except maybe Sawyer and Jin but now he shows up and starts demanding stuff... Where is the stop and think moment. That is why Sayid reigns supreme, and he will be the trump to this half-assed circus.
I sincerly hope "the character" Michael DIES or sacrafices himself for his child. That would be respectable, and I feel it is nessasary.
Let's say they give him Walt (as if that will happen) in exchange for betraying at least four of his fellow Losties, not to mention killing two of them. Where does he think he's going to go? Of course that is why he asked for "the boat".
Michael is an idiot for believing them. Period.
The outcome is utterly predictable and has been since the start of the season. They are going to be ambushed or their mission compromised in some other manner and the season will end with at least some of the losties in dire straights.
As one poster above said, Walt did not appear to be in any immediate danger as far as we or Michael could tell. Michael is acting purely out of selfishness and the desire to be reunited with Walt. A powerful motivation that needs to be tempered with thought and reason, not betrayal and stupidity.
They are going into what Sayid and Jack now know is a trap with only 5 people and little to no intel and not much of a plan, if any. What intel they do have they often don't share with one another. Not to mention they are outnumbered about 4:1, and that according to Michael. Brilliant.
It's as though they are doing the exact opposite of what any technical advisor would tell them should be done. ;)
Last2BLost
05-18-06, 11:50 PM
Badger : Michael is an idiot for believing them. Period.
No Kidding, I mean what else looks believable when it comes to the "Others".
Perhaps Michael will get them there and then confess all of it and plead for them to help.
But the way Michael is and is acting is just completely unpredictable (exacally what TPTB want).
Also the "Others" can't believe that Michael will be successful at this mission, when he hasn't done anything right in his life. They have to know the unexpected will be coming north to their camp soon.
LostInWilderness
05-18-06, 11:50 PM
Michael is a moron.
Ya think? What was your first clue?
sawyerhasbestlines
05-18-06, 11:51 PM
I can feel Michael's pain, when Desmond gets off the boat and they all collectively realize there is no way off magnetic island, and they are all doomed to co-exist as neighbors.
Michael thinks he and Walt just need a new boat and they will sail their way to Ellis Island. Fat chance. Badger, you are right. No way will they deliver Walt back, nor will Michael and Walt get to sail off in the sunset leaving the pesky murders behind him.
I'll say it again: Michael isn't the only one.
Verite Garde
05-18-06, 11:55 PM
I say Michael dies next week
I think that's who Jack is shooting at in the previews after he realizes they were led into a trap. Maybe he confesses.
Sayid already suspects it's a trap and told Jack as much. They have to at least suspect Michael (and clearly do), yet they are going to follow him and try and get Walt back from a hostile group numbering at least 22, according to Michael? In addition, they know the Others are armed with at least the 5 weapons they took from them the last time they were ambushed.
These people are beyond irrational. I've known children with more tactical sense than that. :crazy:
It'll be fun to watch though. ;)
DramaProject
05-19-06, 01:04 AM
Lost is antithesis of Fox's 24. Here the heroes make all the wrong decisions instead of the right ones.
There is no denying Michael is an idiot. If you want to step back and think about the fundamentals of bargaining for something you have to have something to use as leverage to insure the other side sticks to the bargain. The only leverage the Losties had with the Others was Fenry and Michael has set him free. This puts them in the same situation as before when the Others refused to give up Walt.
He should have come clean when he got back and said the want Fenry in return for Walt. They could have taken Fenry back North with them and Michael would be fulfilling his side of the bargain and still have insurance. What incentive do the Others have of fulfilling their end of the bargain once Michael has delivered his friends to them?
The Others have the kids which is the Ace that trumps all especially without Fenry. You want Walt well you can't have him. What are you going to do? BTW, if you don't drop all you're weapons and give yourself up we will kill Walt or tell our other team to do something bad to your camp you have left unguarded.
What is the point of going to the Other's camp? If it's to get Walt back alive how are you going to do that without any intel? Even if the Others didn't know they were coming which they already do and Sayid has said as much to Jack, then what possibility of success to the have going in guns blazing? If they learned anything by now they should realize the Others are smart, cunning and ruthless.
PandoraX
05-19-06, 01:12 AM
Thank you, sawyers, for saying this... I agree. I just can't buy all the excuses people make for Michael.. that he's desperate, that's he a father, etc. Would most parents kill for their kids, and sell out other people to save their lives? SURE absolutely... I wouldn't deny that.
But it's more about the choices he is making in this life and death situation. It's not that he's trying to kill people who took Walt, but that he's believing his captors, and trusting them to honor their word once he accomplishes his task. I think Drama and others are pointing out that in studies of hostage negotiations, there's no real evidence that it's safer to cooperate with the kidnappers, and that that guarantees any kind of real safety for a child. In this case, Walt is more than just a bargaining chip for them. It's clear that they have a real use for him from the number of tests they are running on him, and will likely betray Michael after he betrays his friends.
I think, however, that the next thread should be "Jack is an idiot for believing in Michael". When Mikey tells him "Look, we're gonna do this MY WAY" and makes it so obvious that he only wants 4 specific people (one of which is Hurley... a real Rambo/Jack Bauer type, I think), that's a huge tipoff that something is wrong in Suspensionofdisbeliefville. They should make Sayid the new leader, he seems to be the only one using his noggin lately!
You are so right. I can see doing what is right to help your child, but sacrificing six people when so far all he knows is the boy has to take tests?
Why should he ,even for a moment,believe these people?
GenCobra
05-19-06, 01:27 AM
Michael is a moron.
A desperate evil moron.
LostInWilderness
05-19-06, 01:27 AM
Not to mention you have 40+ people with a bunch of guns that will jump to your aid.
What is the point of going to the Other's camp? If it's to get Walt back alive how are you going to do that without any intel? Even if the Others didn't know they were coming which they already do and Sayid has said as much to Jack, then what possibility of success to the have going in guns blazing?
Virtually none, which I have been saying since last December...repeatedly. Of course the Losties (nor anyone else it seems) are not listening. ;)
If anyone thinks this show is not predictable, may I suggest Romper Room.
OneEyedJack
05-19-06, 02:06 AM
Is Michael a moron or has he lost the ability to be rational? If Michael is a moron, is it because the writers are writing him as a moron or are the writers themselves morons? I guess you could choose to look at these questions either way. Since I'm investing time in the show, I'm inclined to choose to put the positive spin on it until proven otherwise, where as others are inclined to put the negative spin on it until proven otherwise. Whatever the case may be, in season 2 Michael's behavior has been consistent.
Michael hasn't been behaving rationally since Walt was kidnapped. It only got worse when he started communicating with someone who claimed to be Walt via the computer. He should have been suspicious about whether or not the person he was communicating with was Walt. We weren't treated to a scene of him asking Walt a question that only Walt would know. I think we can assume that he just assumed Walt was behind the communications without scrutiny. Why? Either he is a moron or he was desperate to hold on to any thought that Walt was okay and he had the ability to rescue him, so he wouldn't allow himself to scrutinize the glimmer of hope that the computer offered.
Clearly, Michael also shouldn't have just believed that the Others would give back Walt. But again, it's already been established that Michael is either stupid or he's not in the frame of mind to allow himself to scrutinize the offer. It is a glimmer of hope that he won't let go of.
I guess there is not really much a difference between a moron and someone who can't think rationally. But in this case, he can't think rationally because he's not the type of person who can handle a stressful situation with anything resembling poise. I don't really see anything wrong with a character being written like that.
I keep seeing "Michael is a mormon" everytime I read this thread title, and I'm like "what does being a mormon have to do with any of his behavior?"
Either he is a moron or he was desperate to hold on to any thought that Walt was okay and he had the ability to rescue him, so he wouldn't allow himself to scrutinize the glimmer of hope that the computer offered.
That and the rest of what you said is correct. Michael is acting irrationally and selfishly. Although it's hard to say that about someone and their child, the fact is that is exactly what he is doing.
It's not poor writing, as the character is being written the way he is in order to evoke emotional thought and/or response amoung the viewers. And to that end they have succeeded.
The entire season has been building to this conclusion. A confrontation with the Others was inevitable and the Losties have done virtually nothing to prepare for it. And hence the outcome is inevitable if not entirely predictable, but it isn't going to be good.
To those who said Jack's idea of forming an 'army' was preposterous and milataristic, all I have to say is be very glad you're not on that island. ;)
OneEyedJack
05-19-06, 02:22 AM
It's not poor writing, as the character is being written the way he is in order to evoke emotional thought and/or response amoung the viewers. And to that end they have succeeded.
Agreed. Plus, there is a nice counter example in Sayid. He's a guy who fell in love then watched the woman he loved die violently in his arms. Yet he was able to consider the circumstances surrounding the woman who killed her and forgive her. He's transferred his anger to the others, and even as he's in a rage when dealing with one of the others, his intelligence and instincts are not failing him.
stilllost
05-19-06, 02:27 AM
i would do the same thing hes doing, seriously, look at how everyone around him acts....would you seriously trust them into helping you save your kid? hell no. and wtf everyones favorite characters have been murderers already, why does michael get treated like scum around here?
Forgiveness and understanding are two different things. He understands what happened because he's been there. Forgiveness wasn't part of the equation because there was nothing to forgive, only to understand.
But yes, Sayid is a rational character but he is also a conflicted one. However, the characters strength of will and self-discipline temper his emotions.
I don't expect any less from a professional in any field.
DramaProject
05-19-06, 02:45 AM
To those who said Jack's idea of forming an 'army' was preposterous and milataristic, all I have to say is be very glad you're not on that island. ;)
his army should be called the 'keystone cops'. blind ones that is lol
interplanetjanet
05-19-06, 03:00 AM
Michael hasn't been behaving rationally since Walt was kidnapped. It only got worse when he started communicating with someone who claimed to be Walt via the computer. He should have been suspicious about whether or not the person he was communicating with was Walt. We weren't treated to a scene of him asking Walt a question that only Walt would know. I think we can assume that he just assumed Walt was behind the communications without scrutiny. Why? Either he is a moron or he was desperate to hold on to any thought that Walt was okay and he had the ability to rescue him, so he wouldn't allow himself to scrutinize the glimmer of hope that the computer offered.
I agree. I don't think we're meant to take Michael as someone who could use his reason and doesn't--he started losing it when Walt was kidnapped, and has been sliding ever since. 10 days with the others--and after watching Claire, I think we should suspect some drugs may have helped him along to his present state--and he's so far gone he can only stumble along the "plan to get Walt back" even when it makes no sense. He's not being stupid so much as completely irrational.
ETA: It did occur to me that he's had so little time with Walt, it's hard to know what info only the two of them would share. I'd guess the others know Walt's birthday, for example. And his dog's name.
Jack, in contrast, even allowing that he has no useful people intuition (or he would surely have managed to kiss Kate) doesn't ask where Michael's guns went, or question that he wants to bring Hurley and leave Sayid--that's irrational. As is suggesting they go chat with Michael when Sayid points out the problems.
To those who said Jack's idea of forming an 'army' was preposterous and milataristic, all I have to say is be very glad you're not on that island.
This was pointed out by I_Knocked_Up_Sun in Homer's thread: they have no intelligence about the others. Are there 20 of them, or 200? Are they armed with 6 guns, or with an impressive armory? Have one short-range boat, or a way off the island? How many bases, where are they, what supplies does each have? What the hell do they want, anyway? What are they willing to fight for, and how hard, and what would discourage them?
Without answers to these, forming an army to attack is pointless. Forming an intelligence corps to gather information, and training for self-defense--those would be sensible.
*Saint*
05-19-06, 03:32 AM
I enjoy calling Michael a moron, but his behavior is more irrational than moronic. Though, those of us with rational behavior and proper judgment can stand back and see it as moronic.
Do I make sense?
He is upset with losing his son...I almost believe that he has been losing his rationale since losing custody of his son ages back. Finally, after losing Walt, after finally beginning to think they will get closer, I think he really started to lose it. He allows his emotions to guide him.
Think of it this way: when you are really riled up, do you make sound decisions? Or is it better for you to take a deep breath, take a few moments to calm down and THEN approach the situation??
Michael doesn't follow any sound judgment, thought or act. So he isn't a moron, but has some MAJORLY serious issues.
Quite frankly, I am kind of tired of him already....
sawyerhasbestlines
05-19-06, 03:52 AM
ASaint: I enjoy calling Michael a moron.
I do too. It sounds better than "Michael is a half wit." or "Michael's decision making process is stunted at kindergarten level" or "Michael murders to load a new level of survival guilt on his beloved son WAAAALT."
Here's an alternate definition for those offended by the word use of moron, though it's pronounced differently:
Moron \Mo*ron"\, n.; Sp. pl. Morones (http://dict.die.net/morones/). [Sp.]
An inferior olive size having a woody pulp and a large
clingstone pit, growing in the mountainous and high-valley
districts around the city of Moron, in Spain.
DramaProject
05-19-06, 03:57 AM
If I ever see the actor who plays Michael I'm going to yell...
WWWWWWAAAAALT
:DeadHorse:
or in a mock Mel Gibson voice
GIMMY MY SON BACK
PandoraX
05-19-06, 04:00 AM
While I agree that Michael is distinctly olive-like, I still like Dohboy's theory that he's a mormon better.
*Saint*
05-19-06, 04:02 AM
I do too. It sounds better than "Michael is a half wit." or "Michael's decision making process is stunted at kindergarten level" or "Michael murders to load a new level of survival guilt on his beloved son WAAAALT."
Here's an alternate definition for those offended by the word use of moron, though it's pronounced differently:
Moron \Mo*ron"\, n.; Sp. pl. Morones (http://dict.die.net/morones/). [Sp.]
An inferior olive size having a woody pulp and a large
clingstone pit, growing in the mountainous and high-valley
districts around the city of Moron, in Spain.
I love it!!!! :Cheers:
LostInWilderness
05-19-06, 06:05 AM
Aliteration is the key to happiness.
*Saint*
05-19-06, 06:07 AM
LiW you crack me up!!! ;)
This was pointed out by I_Knocked_Up_Sun in Homer's thread: they have no intelligence about the others. Are there 20 of them, or 200? Are they armed with 6 guns, or with an impressive armory? Have one short-range boat, or a way off the island? How many bases, where are they, what supplies does each have? What the hell do they want, anyway? What are they willing to fight for, and how hard, and what would discourage them?
Without answers to these, forming an army to attack is pointless. Forming an intelligence corps to gather information, and training for self-defense--those would be sensible.
I agree. I pointed it out last December (on the 12th) and several times since then. Let's take a look and see what I said as it addresses all of the points you brought up and a lot more. I apologize to those who have probably read this 20 times by now and are sick of seeing it, because quite frankly, so am I.
From the "Let's Get Walt!" thread, Apr 2005 Excerpts from my Strategy and Tactics post of Dec 12th, 2005:
You want action? Then let's make an OPLAN...We can start with the following excerpts from my previous posts...
(Note: The following is possibly the longest post in forum history) ;)
Overall strategy and tactics, 12 Dec 05
First of all the Others have exhibited nothing so far but hostile intent and more importantly, hostile actions and should be dealt with accordingly. Until they wave a white flag and surrender they are the enemy. I will not entertain any thought of "Oh...well...we don't know who or what they are." Or "They might be friendly." NEGATIVE! They are hostiles. Period. If you do not agree with this then do not bother reading the rest of this post.
What they truly know about their enemy, The Others, is basically nothing. Recon is of the utmost importance and should be done as soon as possible. In the meantime defenses should be put in place ASAP before things get FUBAR. Priority's are as follows: reinforce, stockpile, and defend and hope they can hold out longer than the others can, which is doubtful. Secondly: equip, gather intelligence and go on the offensive. It sounds risky but we can surmise that any engagement with the Others would be less than desirable so they need to make the engagement on their terms. The Others have made it clear that they are aggressive and hostile so an engagement on the Lostaways terms would be better than sitting around waiting to see what happened.
The beach offers nothing as far as a defensible position. If attacked from land they have nowhere to go but the sea and the sea is unforgiving. Besides, the others have a boat.
Are the Others really barefoot primitives or are they merely disguised as such? (Note: We now know they in fact were disguised) Spec Ops forces leave ID behind. I'm not saying any of these people are trained military, other than perhaps Sayid, but is merely an example. No unit patches and dog tags for example. Use of foreign weapons is not unusual. In effect, nothing that can identify them.
Creating a defensive position and recon should be their two priorities at this time. Rescuing Walt is not. I understand how important this is to them (and most of the audience) but they need information first. Where IS Walt? Is he guarded?, etc. Size, identification of leadership, overall strength of hostile force, location/s, terrain, transportation capability. What size groups do they move in. Patterns of movement, defensive posture, if any, permanent encampment/s, what type of equipment do they have, if any and is it military or civilian in origin.
Let's take a look at what they are defending against (or attacking).
1. A force of unknown size
2. Unknown supplies
3. Unknown defensive capabilities
4. Unknown location
5. Unknown offensive capabilities other than what we have seen so far
With mostly inexperienced combatants they are better off defending a static position. Trying to defend a position while on the move is far too dynamic for inexperienced operators. One has to know what to do without being told. When defending a camp it only takes one person with a plan to tell everyone else to stay there unless they make it this far then they fall back to a given location. Break everyone up into teams and start work on fortifying a central location and one that meets as many needs as possible.(Note: Locke stated in S1, Ep 15 I believe "We should circle the wagons. Set up a perimeter." He was right.) It should be close to or have water, food, and be easily defended. Whether they are on the move or not they are not being resupplied. However, with a central location supplies can be stockpiled. When on the move they can only carry a very limited amount of supplies and still be able to move and fight. Send out small groups to gather water and other supplies if not on the premises, as this will minimize losses if engaged in the field. On site water should be a high priority. Making camp over the hatch might prove a very good idea as fire teams could rotate out and go into the hatch for R&R.The drawback of the hatch is the fact it's an enclosed area and vulnerable to fire and explosives although those effects can be minimized by baffles. (Note: We now know there are blast doors)One of the best tactics would be to bottleneck any opposing forces when attacking in order to even the odds defensively. The only drawback is it is also a narrow escape route for themselves, as defenders.
The fact is, as far as we know, they are on an island and therfore have nowhere to run. They have to make a stand and defend it. Desmond's bunker has everything they need as outlined above and would be as good a place as any, given what we the audience have seen to date. In order to make the hatch more defensible, slashing and burning the area surrounding it out to 1,000 yards if possible would be a good idea. Hard work yes, but certainly possible since they have the greatest single discovery of all time: fire.
Offensive operations:
Guerilla Warfare, hit and run, light and fast is the way to go. Listening posts are always a good idea (Locke also mentioned they should post guards on a perimeter. See above.) as well as recon teams. Running headlong into a fight without first gaining INTEL is not a good idea. (Note: Just what happened with Jack, Sawyer, Locke and Kate) Locke with a sniper rifle to gain the ballistic advantage and to eliminate known identifiable leaders (e.g. "Zeke") in order to disorganize them would be one such tactic.
However, until they have INTEL the recon teams are to gather intel only and not engage the Others unless absolutely necessary and even then retreat if possible. Until such time as more INTEL is obtained one cannot outline any effective offensive strategy, including rescuing Walt.
Sawyer will not be 'combat effective' for likely a month or so since he is septic and they have little in the way of truly effective medications, including antibiotics. By this I mean IV antibiotics, etc. However, this IS TV and one kiss from Kate and he'll be back on his feet.
What weapons:
The AK-47 is excellent in adverse conditions such as the desert (dust/sand) and the jungle (water/mud), absolutely. It's one of the most rugged and reliable weapons made. They do suffer from inaccuracy when compared to the modern M16A2 or even the M4.
However, for close-in fighting such as door to door or the jungle the M4 (former) and M16A2 (latter), are hard to beat.
The reason the 5.56mm round was originally chosen was primarily for two reasons: it was easier to train someone to shoot well in less time due to the lack of significant recoil and secondly, they permitted carrying more rounds per troop resulting in more firepower (more rounds down range in less time).
The 7.62 caliber is ballistically superior at longer ranges but the cartridge in the AK-47 is a drawback in that regard (less powder). At longer ranges it's hard to argue against a larger caliber but in the jungle those shots are rare.
Given the fact the castaways are not trained the AK is a good weapon due to its ability to absorb punishment. It's more forgiving in that respect. They also make good 'spray & pray' weapons as, once again, they suffer from inaccuracy when compared to the M4/M16A2. If you hit what you're (hopefully) aiming at or just get lucky they do have more knock down power though (obviously).
On going off half cocked without a plan...
Going off half cocked is going to get them captured or worse. They need a plan. Gathering intelligence is one of the first two things thay need to do. They can't rescue Walt for example if they don't know where he is. They can't protect themselves if they have no idea what they are up against. All they have to do is observe, not engage. Mr Eko seems to know his way around fairly well, as does Locke. We've seen his woodcraft skills demonstrated repeatedly. In addition, as many others here have speculated (and it IS speculation) he may have more of the required skills than simply having worked as a "regional collections manager for a box company". The way he was handling that rifle in the bunker, although a very minor scene, may and I emphasize the word may, have been somewhat telling. Sayid is an obvious example. Then again, the Iraqi military didn't really impress me. Kate certainly knows how to handle a pistol as was clearly evident in the bank robbery. Nobody ever said Jack was going to need combat skills. The fact he is a surgeon is a needed skill however. In fact the support roles such as that are just as important if not moreso.
I could write a book on what they should do but the point is, as WildCard pointed out, they need organization and a plan of action. I don't care who they are, a plan is a plan because without organization they are doomed. No one said they needed military training. Although with the modicum of skills they possess as a group it would be hard to imagine they could not come up with a workable plan rather than simply sit around and wait to see what happens or worse, go charging into the unknown guns blazing. (Note: Jack's proposition to Ana Lucia about training an 'army' was a good idea.) Then again, this is TV and anything is possible. They could miraculously sprout wings for all we know.
(The potential was there when they found the balloon.) ;)
I didn't start this thread. I was merely pointing out what COULD be done, given the right leadership. The question was and remains "So is it time to break out the guns?", and now you know what I think. If they do, then they better have an idea of just what they need to do and not run around in the jungle playing Rambo.
On Disguise...
Have you ever heard the saying "Never underestimate the enemy"? All we have SEEN is a pistol, a powerboat, a Molotov Cocktail, and what appeared to be barefoot people, yes. Go ahead, arm yourself to the teeth and take on an unknown force with all the other unknowns I mentioned in my post earlier in this thread and good luck. In reality that would be foolish. But, once again, this is TV and that is probably just what they will do. (Note: And they did.) But, how do you know that is all they have? What technology do they have available that we have not seen yet? What is the "security system"? They had at least one pistol, yes. Maybe they have more. Would you bet your life on it? I wouldn't, nor my own either. (Note: They do now as they captured weapons.) "It's ass kicking time" I believe General George Armstrong Custer probably said or felt the same thing. After all they were 'untrained savages' (in his mind) and he was leading the U.S. 7th Cavalry.
On Taking Prisoners...
Capturing one of the Others would be one of my first goals, if at all possible. Then let Sayid do his job. (Note: fake Henry was captured and Sayid did do his job.)
On organization...
Organizing the group and developing a plan of action is key to their survival. Clearly they realize they are no longer alone on the island and are faced with a hostile force of undetermined size and capability. The Others, as we have seen, have a powerboat and at least one pistol for example. And where there is smoke, there is usually fire.
Going off half-cocked into the jungle and attempting to rescue Walt knowing nothing more than that is suicide. No, they are not trained soldiers and no one said they were or needed to be. They do have brains however and that is their best weapon. They now have weapons and combining the two would be their best defense.
Again, see my post #12. I wrote it taking into consideration the skills of the Lostaways. I never claimed it was a small unit tactics manual. Given the people, weapons and material they have, and some thought, they could become an effective force. By that I do not mean a Spec. Ops. unit but rather effective enough to do the job they have to do, survive.
And by the way: turning primitive but motivated indigenous people into an effective fighting force is something I know a little about. We've been doing it for a long time. The Lostaways however are not primitive and therefore I would expect them to be able to organize themselves.
and:
...Like WildCard said in another post there is no textbook answer. As a retired military officer I have been involved in both tactical and strategic mission planning. Much of what I said revolves around basic principles and as such doesn't require more than common sense and motivation. The island, including the Others, as well as their own desire to survive and return to civilization is providing the motivation for the group as a whole. In this way the Lostaways are not totally ignorant of the need to organize and defend themselves.
At some point I expect the writers to have a couple of them do some sort of recon in an attempt to ascertain what they are up against. (Note: Michael did and just returned. What did he find out?) As we saw, Locke was at least a war gamer and I sense his character has at least a basic knowledge of the principles I outlined previously. Sayid as well has been given a military background and has been written as a fairly level-headed and intelligent guy.
However, the characters are not without their flaws and have made some errors in judgement, tactically speaking. Example: Sayid noticed a cable on the beach and proceeded to investigate it. Then, when he discovered the tripwire he stepped over it and into the snare trap where he was later taken captive by Danielle. Why he did not think the visible tripwire could have been a decoy but instead stepped over it activating the real Booby trap is beyond me. Clearly a writing gimmick but I can't fault them for that.
Kate later did essentially the same thing: Picked up a doll that didn't belong there, even after Jack warned her not to. Is this becoming a habit?!
In addition, Michael is also motivated by the desire to find his son. But emotional responses need to be tempered by the fact they are in a clearly hostile environment and where all indications are the Others are the enemy. They have to be thought of as such at the present time since every encounter with them has had a bad outcome.
Once again, I never said they needed to be trained soldiers to employ what I outlined. They have the intelligence and at least some expertise to realize what they need to do, how and why...
and...
...I hate to use the term "militaristic". Think of it as survival. They are reasonably intelligent people and are now armed. However, they have limited weapons and ammo and no re-supply. In reality, given their situation, you would not simply charge into the jungle without a plan. (Note: And what did they do?) Remember "A failure to plan, is a plan to fail", but a plan requires knowledge....
...they have a limited number of weapons and ammo and can't afford to be captured and have their weapons fall into the hands of the enemy... (Note: And that is just what happened.)
From the "Let's get Walt!" thread:
Desperation is not the time to go on the offensive. A lack of accurate and timely INTEL and/or being in a position whereby one is forced to react are not times to engage in offensive operations.
Besides, the Losties are far from being in a desperate situation where they are forced to either attack or die. Rescuing Walt or anyone else for that matter will require planning and forethought, not a half-assed attempt based on the word of one man who may or may not have accurate INTEL.
(Of course we now know Michael was indeed coerced into freeing Fenry in exchange for the promise they would free Walt, an agreement they almost certainly have no intention of keeping. And worse yet, they are being led into a trap. Although they appear to be onto Michael they are still making a stupid decision. According to Michael there are 22 Others. There are 5 Losties going on this mission. 22 vs 5. That's >4:1 against them, in enemy territory no less. The French had better odds at Dien Bien Phu! ;) ) :crazy: :thwak:
:popcorn:
Harold Perrineau's situation somewhat reminds me of the time John Wayne's character was shot and killed by actor Bruce Dern in the movie "Cowboys". Some people actually hated him for it. :crazy:
Book_Girl
05-19-06, 07:55 AM
Badger: I agree with practically everything you said.
The Others are very clever and should be considered as "hostiles."
They're not the peace-loving hippy/scientists as some posters may have suggested.
Theres a huge contrast (ethically) in the way the two groups initiated the "trade."
The Losties attempted a straightforward trade: Henry for Walt, no questions asked.
The Others, however, showed their hand as opportunists. The pendulum swung in their favor when Michael got himself captured. The plan: Send desperate, obsessed Michael back to free Henry and we still get to keep Walt. Does anyone really believe the Others were going to honor their agreement with Michael?
interplanetjanet
05-19-06, 12:08 PM
Brilliant, Badger, and I think I did see it the first time.
I'm wondering if the finale title is a hint that, after the charge into the jungle half-cocked plan fails, they will start to actually talk to each other--that is, live together--and organize to figure out...er, all sorts of stuff.
Maybe this could be brought back to life after the finale, to discuss in the summer hiatus?
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