DHARMA Acronym discovered in ARG (Possibly Spoilerish-WMT)

[PandoraX]

OK mods, this is officially from the webmaze, but I thought I'd put it in here for the people who want to know spoilers but don't want to play the ARG, or have anything to do with the ARG, except to know clues we are finding from it.

Today, we've gotten access to part of the ARG where we are made to play a game much like SIMON FROM HELL. :) After memorizing a sequence of 42 colored buttons/sounds and repeating them in sequence, you get the following message:

D - Department of
H - Heuristics
A - And
R - Research on
M - Material
A - Applications

We're thinking that this is probably what DHARMA stands for.

If you want to play the webmaze and want to know more specifics about the game, please join us in that subforum. Just posting this for everyone else.

[LPU]

Huh. Not exactly where I thought that would go...so they see themselves as educators?

[PandoraX]

Huh. Not exactly where I thought that would go...so they see themselves as educators?

I don't think anyone predicted it like this... well, not exactly. I'm thinking maybe they mean more of the psych definition of heuristics (in behavioralism):

In psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology), heuristics are simple, efficient rules of thumb which have been proposed to explain how people make decisions, come to judgments and solve problems, typically when facing complex problems or incomplete information. These rules work well under most circumstances, but in certain cases lead to systematic cognitive biases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristics

[LPU]

That makes sense Pan. And it would certainly imply that the others are DHARMA-related, rather than entity-x.

[juanbong]

With Heuristics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristics), it is the technique of finding something or discovery. With the show, it is titled LOST, and our characters are lost. Very interesting.
Pan, I scrolled through the Hanso thread in webmaze this morning. Can you point me in the direction of how to get to the SIMON game? Thanks.

[PandoraX]

Juan: Sure...

I was trying not to get too detailed here because if the thread got too webmazy, it might get moved... but I can understand that it could be confusing to search through that whole thread just for how to get to this one clue.

www.thehansofoundation.org (http://www.thehansofoundation.org) > Active Projects > Mental Health Appeal > Inquire Today > enter "light sequence again" (from an anagram we found) > it gives you that crazy SIMON game, which takes a long time and is a bit painful to play; you get msgs after completing 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42.... it completes the msg (screencap):

http://f5.putfile.com/6/16310445624.jpg

If you need more help, check the Help Desk in webmaze forums, always very friendly and will help you if you get stuck.

EDIT: I just realized something. I think you have to go through the WHOLE WEBMAZE to get the pw to work in Mental Health (the site logs cookies, and if you haven't done earlier tasks, you can't jump around). If you are not a webmazer and don't really want to join the game, I wouldn't recommend doing it for this one clue, since there's nothing else to the DHARMA clue that we are getting except what I'm showing you. (though we welcome new players if you are interested in the rest of the game... check Truffula's stickied post on "Travel Guide")

[LPU]

How could they not actually come up with something for "A?" hahaha Lazy-ass bastiches...

[juanbong]

Quoted by Pan:
I was trying not to get too detailed here because if the thread got too webmazy, it might get moved... but I can understand that it could be confusing to search through that whole thread just for how to get to this one clue.


That works for me! Thanks again for your help, Pan!

Quoted by Pan:
EDIT: I just realized something. I think you have to go through the WHOLE WEBMAZE to get the pw to work in Mental Health (the site logs cookies, and if you haven't done earlier tasks, you can't jump around). If you are not a webmazer and don't really want to join the game, I wouldn't recommend doing it for this one clue, since there's nothing else to the DHARMA clue that we are getting except what I'm showing you. (though we welcome new players if you are interested in the rest of the game... check Truffula's stickied post on "Travel Guide")


I have only been keeping up with the game a little, not like everyone else, but will watch for what you mean in the above mentioned quotes. Thanks!

[Danono]

cool, and thanks for thinking of us without time and or patience to follow the web maze. I think this makes a lot of sense given the observation aspects of the initiative.

[Amanda+Jack]

ok this is out of place and has most deffinatly been covered, but isn't what Dharma doing...illegal?? its clearly a big operatoin, how the hell can they get away with all this.

[PandoraX]

No problem, Danono, and thank *you* for taking the time to water down the Insider Scoops in the past. Yeah, I figured there are people who don't want to be knee deep in the 'maze but still want to know about major clues... to be honest, there aren't all that many that I'd consider intrinsic to solving the mysteries of the TV show so far aside from this. If you are on the fence about webmazing at this point, I'd say, it's somewhat fun, but to really keep up with it, it is time consuming... there is a slowly evolving parallel plot about The Hanso Foundation, but not always directly tied into the show's plot and characters.

AJ: Well, maybe that's why they are doing this project in secret on an island? ;)

[pinnerman]

This is really cool, Pan. Thanks for posting this. This is in line with what they said about the webmaze - that we would find things out about Hanso and DHARMA this summer that would shed light on their shared history, but not directly impact the show in 2004.

This adds to the understanding of who DHARMA was and what they were trying to accomplish when Hanso set them up on the island. I believe it also adds proof to my theory that DHARMA wasn't originally very interested in electromagnetic studies, but Hanso incorporated that line of research into their work as a trade off to study the psychological disiplines they really wanted to work on. Basically, I think the things we're learning about Hanso through the webmaze seem to be all possitive spin on the outside (the site, the commercials, etc.), but when you dig deeper you find layers of deceipt and evil. It seems we're supposed to think they're being portrayed as the bad guys.

This also adds to my theory that Hanso screwed DHARMA over at some point before they severed business ties in 1987, and that the Others are the leftovers of what was originally DHARMA.

My theory connecting all of this can be found here:

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20823

It's one of the busier theory threads at the moment, and I appreciate the work that is being done on the webmaze, even thought I don't have time to do it personally. I incorporate small parts of its findings into my work, and take a little heat for doing so. I think ultimately there wil be a fair amount of information that will be revealed over the summer. The trick will be to figure out which handful of clues are the important ones, or is there a way to connect them all together to reach one ultimate clue from the webmaze - that is what I'll be looking for.

Thanks again.

[Kid_Kanada]

Pandora I followed your instructions--Active Projects > Mental Health Appeal > Inquire Today > enter "light sequence again" (from an anagram we found) > it gives you that crazy SIMON game, but before the game began a letter came up, not sure it this has been discussed before, the letter is by an Armand Zander. I would post the screen shot but I have no clue how to do that.

[tovarbaker]

kinda cool, although I think that I would have liked it better if it had been an acronym for the founders names (that we know so far) like some people have speculated

[PandoraX]

pinn: YW. On where it fits in... I think there are layers as well, but I think the whole heuristic idea is about the decisions they make that end up making the characters so complex. They've proven themselves to be bad decisions in the past... is this research into how they could be molded or conditioned to make better decisions?

Kid: I'm trying to keep discussion to the acronym and the theory behind it only here... we have a pretty long discussion on the logistics of the other clues in the webmaze forum already in the Hanso thread.

[BubbleBoy13]

Whoa whoa whoa. Jus one sec. In abbreviations like that, "ands" and "ofs" dont show up, just like in book titles where ands and ofs arent capitilized. Just my thought.

[interplanetjanet]

Whoa whoa whoa. Jus one sec. In abbreviations like that, "ands" and "ofs" dont show up, just like in book titles where ands and ofs arent capitilized. Just my thought.
They can guest star if they make your word come out better, though.

Thanks for posting this here, Pan. I think it's a great use of Spoilers in the hiatus. I am amused that arguably dharma wanted to promote applied common sense--things have clearly slipped a bit.

[PandoraX]

Yeah, I think the A is more just a forced vowel, since they needed it to make a "cool sounding" name that would fit with their religious/philosophical themes of Lost. Happens all the time in real life, with military project names, where they want to make some project sound all "badass". :)

[Sawyer'sBaby'sMomma]

In psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology), heuristics are simple, efficient rules of thumb which have been proposed to explain how people make decisions, come to judgments and solve problems, typically when facing complex problems or incomplete information. These rules work well under most circumstances, but in certain cases lead to systematic cognitive biases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias).

Now I see where this ties into the "The Losties are making bad decisions and I'm a little bit bent over it" part of this forum and where it could tie in with the show. Interesting and thanks for posting this!

[Dorkfish]

By PandoraX:
EDIT: I just realized something. I think you have to go through the WHOLE WEBMAZE to get the pw to work in Mental Health (the site logs cookies, and if you haven't done earlier tasks, you can't jump around). If you are not a webmazer and don't really want to join the game, I wouldn't recommend doing it for this one clue, since there's nothing else to the DHARMA clue that we are getting except what I'm showing you. (though we welcome new players if you are interested in the rest of the game... check Truffula's stickied post on "Travel Guide")

Actually, I didn't have to go through the whole webmaze, don't know if it's just me, but I just went to Mental Health and everything worked out! Just thought this would help.

[twinkletoesx]

Hey guys, I just tonight noticed that one of the Heuristic Definitions at Wiki mentions Jakob Nielson and he is from Copenhagen, Denmark....

"In human-computer interaction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-computer_interaction), heuristic evaluation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristic_evaluation) is a usability testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usability_testing) technique devised by usability consultant Jakob Nielsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Nielsen_%28usability_consultant%29)." --

Click on Jakob Nielson and you learn he not only was he born in Copenhagen, Denmark, to paraphrase Jakob successfully predicted the internet and web designs as we know it.

Further, Jakob's Usability testing technique reminds me of the orientation film at the Swan and the Pearl as usability tests:

"Usability testing is a means for measuring how well people can use some human-made object (such as a web page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_design), a computer interface (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface), a document, or a device) for its intended purpose ..Rather than showing users a rough draft and asking, "Do you understand this?", usability testing involves watching people trying to use something for its intended purpose. For example, when testing instructions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instruction) for assembling a toy, the test subjects should be given the instructions and a box of parts. Instruction phrasing, illustration quality, and the toy's design all affect the assembly process. Setting up a usability test involves carefully creating a scenario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scenario), or realistic situation, wherein the person performs a list of tasks using the product being tested while observers watch and take notes. Several other test instruments such as scripted instructions, paper prototypes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_prototypes),....are also used "

[tewkewl74]

By Jove! that's it! it all comes together. The best def i've seen yet...

that's for the post twinkletoes...

[twinkletoesx]

Yeah, the Copenhagen-originated Nielson Heuristic stuff reminds me of the Orientation Video of the Pearl. The Pearl video sets in motion the observation of people doing tasks they thought were of the "utmost importance" although we don't know what products they might be testing. It seems Dharma was being used to observe people like "Big Brother" being isolated, and this Dharma was just the "cover". Reading more, Nielson beleived in testing on 5 or fewer people at a time...I thought maybe thats why there are so many selections.

[Stowaway]

Now I'm going to have to change my signature (sigh)!

At least I got the word "heuristic" right.

Department of Heuristics and Material Applications - department of what larger organization. The Hanso Foundation? Is there a military connection?

Hanso was a munitions manufacturer right before he supposedly saw the light and became a peace-promoting philanthropist (yeah, sure). Is the whole thing about Hanso working with the military to produce a super-weapon using the special electromagnetic properties of the island?

And I suspect there's another layer beneath that layer - maybe the electromagnetic properties of the island are due to an alien spaceship that crashed there many centuries (maybe aeons) ago. Maybe the whole island is the remains of that spaceship grown over with vegetation.

Hey, now I think I get the arctic connection with the two guys in the season finale - it's a homage to "The Thing" (my favorite is the John Carpenter version). In that movie, scientists in the arctic find the remains of an alien spaceship and an alien corpse (that revives and causes a lot of havoc) buried in the ice. The spaceship crashed there something like 60,000 years previously.

Oh, wait a minute - if my theorized spaceship crash took place as long as 60,000 years ago, could that spaceship crash be the catastrophic event that caused the extinction of the dinosaurs? A spaceship as big as the island appears to be crashing on the Earth would be a good candidate for a Deep Impact E. L. E. (Extinction Level Event).

On and on it goes and where it stops nobody knows ... hopefully not until 5 or 6 seasons from now all of the layers will be peeled off the onion.

[Lawboy]

Department of Heuristics and Material Applications - department of what larger organization. The Hanso Foundation? Is there a military connection?

Based upon the fact that Inman said he left the CIA to join DHARMA, I assume that there is a military connection. Many types of businesses like this recruit from the special ops because they know they will get highly trained people who know how to follow orders. So while it may not be directly tied to a governement, its recruiting often targets those types. I think there is definitely some type of connection.

[hoovnasty]

I find it interesting that the word "Department" is used, perhaps this is just one of many "departments" in the Hanso organization.

[PandoraX]

Department of Heuristics and Material Applications - department of what larger organization. The Hanso Foundation? Is there a military connection?

Just based on the in-webmaze canon, the answer to your question is The Hanso Foundation, and related to a subdivision that specializes in Mental Health and Wellness. We're not getting a lot of mlitary connections so far in the game.

[Greatsageandeminentjunkie]

Wait, DHARMA stands for something?

There goes my whole "Greg Initiative" theory.

[Penelope]

I find it interesting that the word "Department" is used, perhaps this is just one of many "departments" in the Hanso organization.

Learning the meaning was a shocker, and the word DEPARTMENT was the biggest shocker. The Dharma INITIATIVE -- we had assumed this was an organization independent of a larger corporation. Now its looking like it is just one department. But don't be so sure to link it to Alvar Hanso's corporation merely because he is seen in the Orientation video. (and is a large chunk of the maze). TPTB often throw a red herring at us, and there are other possible corporations DHARMA could be a sub-division of:

1. We still have no idea what role the Degroot's play in any corporate context.

2. The finale introduced us to Penny Widmore and her family, so Widmore's corporations could be tied into DHARMA instead.

3. And let's not forget another corporate mogul -- Mr. Paik, Sun's dad.


PS: Pan I didn't realize you had started this thread since I don't come into Spoilers, until I read your reference to it in GD, but I am glad you did! :Cheers:

[bigmouth]

If anyone is looking for a great book that explains heuristics in a really entertaining way, I highly recommend Robert Cialdini's Influence: the Psychology of Persuasion (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688128165/002-9987365-5236068?v=glance&n=283155). Really one of the better books I've read about anything, ever.

Makes me wonder if this is why "choice" is such a powerful theme on the show. For whatever reason, our losties can apparently be manipulated or conned, but never actually coerced, so far as we've seen.

[Penelope]

Makes me wonder if this is why "choice" is such a powerful theme on the show. For whatever reason, our losties can apparently be manipulated or conned, but never actually coerced, so far as we've seen.

Interesting theory. So what would you say happened to Michael at the end of the season? I would define that as coerced, rather than manipulated, although I can see the argument go both ways.

[twinkletoesx]

Learning the meaning was a shocker, and the word DEPARTMENT was the biggest shocker. The Dharma INITIATIVE -- we had assumed this was an organization independent of a larger corporation. Now its looking like it is just one department.... A agree a shocker. While very possible Dhamra was operated as if it was independent at first, at any time after 1980 the Hansos may have acquired it with the stroke of a pen to a paper. The poor scientists may not have had much political acumen so may have signed their rights, inventons (and lives) away .

[Unlocke Locke]

Dharma is the name on the little bottle of vodka Locke was drinking on the plane

[Brian]

Re-titling and moving to the Spin-Off area. Please continue there. Thank you.

[truffula]

The DHARMA acronym is being discussed in the ALL HANSO thread as well as the ALL LOST thread.
Locking.
:)

[Lab]

Moved to Webmaze T&S / Spoilers.

[spooky]

The whole acronym seemed a bit non-sensical to me at first. But here’s a go. Taking the more psychological definition of Department of Heuristics and Research on Material Applications Initiative, if I were to translate that into everyday speech, I might say something like:

Department of how people make decisions and research on the practical application of the decision making process Initiative. It sounds pretty abstract, to me (application of the decision making process on what? to what practical/material end?). It’s abstract and it’s limited in how it relates to Dharma as a whole, although it does give some shape to the experiment at the Pearl, and probably to the Lostie's interactions with the Others.


But how about a wider translation in everyday language:

Department of problem solving techniques and research on the practical application of those techniques Initiative. It still sounds pretty abstract. Practical application of problem solving techniques on what?



Perhaps on the particular fields of study Dharma was/is engaged in. I’m wondering if the “heuristics” part of the acronym doesn’t have a wider significance than just the psychological definition. What if THF has good short-cuts/rules-of-thumb/modeling techniques for fields of study like Life Extension or Electromagnetism? They would gain a tremendous edge in their research in those fields. Maybe the “material application” of heuristics is what gives THF the cutting-edge status they seem to have in being able to do things like cure Thompson’s cancer, or keep Joop alive.

Aside from the “material applications” of heuristics, there also seem to be “material applications” of specific Dharma projects by THF.

From the Swan’s Orientation Film:
“Following in the footsteps of visionaries such as B.F. Skinner [there is a jump cut/splice here] imagined a large scale communal research compound where scientists and free thinkers from around the globe could pursue research in meteorology, psychology, parapsychology, zoology, electromagnetism, and utopian social [splice] Danish industrialist and munitions magnate Alvar Hanso whose financial backing made their dream of a multi-purpose social science research facility a reality.”

It looks to me like at least some of the on-island projects have found some “material applications” in the current Hanso projects, and at a break-neck pace:

Zoology – genetic manipulation done on the bears and sharks(?) furthered the “material application” of Hanso’s Genomic Advancement project (used to cure diseases like Thompson’s cancer). It may have also had an impact on the LEP (used to keep Joop alive, and perhaps sustain the aging Hanso).

Psychology – the obvious connection is to the Mental Health Appeal (which is linked to testing of the savants at Vik). I guess the “material application” is a steady supply of guinnea pigs, at this point? Of course, if the Heuristics part of the acronym is limited to a psychological definition, then I imagine it has to do with behavior prediction and manipulating the public at large. Not that THF seems to be particularly good at it, really. They seem more about bullying, and less about finesse or behavior modification. I think most people would question the motivations and ethical implications of a foundation funding research on Life Extension and Genomic Advancement, no matter how inocuous they tried to make their image. Add in Electromagnetism and Mathematical Forecasting, and it’s like, whaaa? Add in projects from the old site, like Juxtapositional Eugenics and Remote Viewing, and it’s like, WTF???

Meterology – I can’t see any relation to the current Hanso Foundation.

Parapsychology – this also may have also have something to do the testing on the savants at Vik. It almost certainly relates to the Remote Viewing Training Facility listed on the old Hanso site (and is the project Hugh was told to rename). Not sure what the “material application” might be, but spying and totally secure long distance communications come to mind.

Electromagnetism – Electromagnetic Research Initiative. We don’t have enough info to know what the material application is. Speculation includes some kind of weapon, and/or something to do with Smokey.

Social Utopia – Not sure about a material application, other than the whole bent on world domination thing.

It seems to me that “material applications” is working at two levels here. One is an application of “heuristics” (short cuts/rules of thumb) that are allowing THF to conduct research more efficiently than anyone else, making them leaders in cutting-edge technology. The other level is that the research is leading to “material applications” like curing cancer, increasing longevity, etc. I’m guessing that Hanso Foundation misuse of research done by Dharma caused a falling out, and that’s why they’re still stuck on the island and think they’re “the good guys.”

[drabauer]

Thanks so much spooky! I have been beating the drum for a wider notion of heuristics, as its a term I encounter all the time in my work, and in the work of others meaning, as you say "short cuts/rules of thumb" (or see my defn posted earlier in this thread). It's times like this that I hate Wikipedia with a passion. Everybody runs there for definitions instead of to a reputable dictionary, and gets whatever some hapless soul felt like posting for a definition. Not that I am against Wikipedia, but it was never intended to be a dictionary!

[rvturnage]

Spooky, please forgive me...I think I followed what you're saying. I just want to make sure I understand what you're getting at..I've found a couple of pretty simplistic definitions of Heuristics that I believe go along with it...
From the National Institute of Standards and Technology (http://www.nist.gov/dads/HTML/heuristic.html)
Definition: An algorithm that usually, but not always, works or that gives nearly the right answer.

and from whatis.techtarget.com (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci212246,00.html)
As an adjective, heuristic (pronounced hyu-RIS-tik and from the Greek "heuriskein" meaning "to discover") pertains to the process of gaining knowledge or some desired result by intelligent guesswork rather than by following some preestablished formula. (Heuristic can be contrasted with algorithmic.) The term seems to have two usages:

1) Describing an approach to learning by trying without necessarily having an organized hypothesis or way of proving that the results proved or disproved the hypothesis. That is, "seat-of-the-pants" or "trial-by-error" learning.

2) Pertaining to the use of the general knowledge gained by experience, sometimes expressed as "using a rule-of-thumb." (However, heuristic knowledge can be applied to complex as well as simple everyday problems. Human chess players use a heuristic approach.)

As a noun, a heuristic is a specific rule-of-thumb or argument derived from experience. The application of heuristic knowledge to a problem is sometimes known as heuristics.

So, if I'm reading your post correctly, based on these definitions, I take it to mean that THF were basically taking shortcuts in development based on the research done by DHARMA -- Not worrying if a solution works everytime, or more importantly, why/how it works or if it was a safe solution to the problem. They, THF, know it works most of the time, and base their work on that.

Am I correct in my understanding of what you're saying? Mainly, at this point I'm wondering if taking a shortcut based on Heuristic research actually gives a factual "why" or "how" something works. It seems to me, if THF are using shortcuts based on this type of research then they really dont know what they're doing. They just have a "pretty good guess".

I can see how Heuristics can work in sociological or psychological arenas, but could someone give me an example of the steps DHARMA may take in Heuristic research for zoology or parasychology? there's got to be more to it than "let's see what happens to a polar bear if we do this to that gene."

thanks...
rvt

[bigmouth]

Pen and Twinkle: Agreed -- that's a good point. And add to that the example of Ethan threatening to kill everyone in camp if Charlie didn't bring Aaron, which is pretty coercive, now that I think about it. Perhaps what I mean is that no one can make choices for them. The Others are forced to rely on carrots or sticks to get what they want on the Swan side of the Island. Why, for example, didn't Ethan just grab Aaron the way they did the tailsection survivors?
One is an application of “heuristics” (short cuts/rules of thumb) that are allowing THF to conduct research more efficiently than anyone else, making them leaders in cutting-edge technology.
Spooky: I like that, but have folks considered the reverse? Remember the "deterritorialization of ursus martimus"? Could suggest that the point of the research is to OVERCOME these heuristics that inefficiently prevent humanity from evolving. One of the problems with heuristics is they can persist long after they serve any valuable purpose...

[rottenralf]

Spooky, please forgive me...I think I followed what you're saying. I just want to make sure I understand what you're getting at..I've found a couple of pretty simplistic definitions of Heuristics that I believe go along with it...


and from

So, if I'm reading your post correctly, based on these definitions, I take it to mean that THF were basically taking shortcuts in development based on the research done by DHARMA -- Not worrying if a solution works everytime, or more importantly, why/how it works or if it was a safe solution to the problem. They, THF, know it works most of the time, and base their work on that.

Am I correct in my understanding of what you're saying? Mainly, at this point I'm wondering if taking a shortcut based on Heuristic research actually gives a factual "why" or "how" something works. It seems to me, if THF are using shortcuts based on this type of research then they really dont know what they're doing. They just have a "pretty good guess".

I can see how Heuristics can work in sociological or psychological arenas, but could someone give me an example of the steps DHARMA may take in Heuristic research for zoology or parasychology? there's got to be more to it than "let's see what happens to a polar bear if we do this to that gene."

thanks...
rvt

RTV - I am no expert here, but the way I was reading it I would prefer the word "alternative" to "shortcut". Shortcut can have a connotation of be less than ideal or faulty and I don't think that is the case here.

[bigmouth]

RTV - I am no expert here, but the way I was reading it I would prefer the word "alternative" to "shortcut". Shortcut can have a connotation of be less than ideal or faulty and I don't think that is the case here.
ralf and RVT: Many heuristics (i.e., mental shortcuts) are hard-wired genetically. For example, I remember reading somewhere that the mating instinct in roosters is triggered by the angle of the hen's head. As a result, one can exploit this heuristic to prompt roosters to mate with inanimate objects so long as they're placed at the correct angle.

[rvturnage]

RTV - I am no expert here, but the way I was reading it I would prefer the word "alternative" to "shortcut". Shortcut can have a connotation of be less than ideal or faulty and I don't think that is the case here.

less than ideal, or lacking of a proveable set of procedures is the way I took it by the definitions I found. Not faulty, neccesarily, but more in line with "this works when you do this", without the undeniable facts of "why" it works.

Which, to me says Hanso knew what they were doing when they applied the research, but they were'nt sure of all the affects. But, granted, I have no scientific knowledge what so ever. That's just how I interpreted it.

I'd love a very basic step by step on how heuristic research would be done and then applied in zooilogical research...or any research outside of sociological/pshycological circles.

[spooky]

less than ideal, or lacking of a proveable set of procedures is the way I took it by the definitions I found. Not faulty, neccesarily, but more in line with "this works when you do this", without the undeniable facts of "why" it works.

Which, to me says Hanso knew what they were doing when they applied the research, but they were'nt sure of all the affects. But, granted, I have no scientific knowledge what so ever. That's just how I interpreted it.

I'd love a very basic step by step on how heuristic research would be done and then applied in zooilogical research...or any research outside of sociological/pshycological circles.

Thanks for responding, rvt. I think it’s great to have some more definitions that focus on the general idea of heuristics as problem solving techniques/models/sets of rules. I understand what you mean about an application of rules-of-thumb that may or not be accurate. That’s partly why I originally sort of dismissed the acronym as nonsensical; it may still be quite likely that it turns out to be doublespeak. But some heuristics are better than others, I think – not that I’m an expert either. It may be a leap to say that studying heuristics is giving Hanso an edge. But I’m thinking if you come up with a heuristic that works well, then your guesses are likely to be better than the guy who doesn’t know about the heuristic; and then you have an advantage. If your heuristic saves you time, then you have another advantage.

To try and answer your question: What if by studying heuristics Dharma came up with a set of rules (a heuristic) that allowed them to find certain polar bear gene sequences twice as fast as anyone else – perhaps by some kind of search algorithm? I can’t say how that would work step-by-step, but maybe the “less than ideal” part is a risk that 5% of the genes they found weren’t what they were looking for, and they missed 5% they were looking for. But, they still would have found 90% of what they wanted, twice as fast. The upshot is they can get started on further research before anyone else. Or, what if Dharma discovered that children were better at remote viewing than adults, and then used that heuristic? It’s not that adults can’t be good at remote viewing (the heuristic isn’t always “right,” it’s just a rule-of-thumb), but by focusing exclusively on children they would probably achieve better results, faster than another group of parapsychologists that focused exclusively on adults. Does that make sense?

I'm not sure if it's fair to make the correlation, but I feel you, rvt.
Given some of the things we know about THF, I can't help but wonder if a focus on short-cuts/rules-of-thumb doesn’t speak to an underlying philosophical bent shown by THF. Get it done as fast as possible, by whatever means available, damn the consequences... it kind of seems to be their attitude. They don’t exactly seem to epitomize careful, ethical science. Maybe that’s why were so many “incidents” on the island.

drabauer, thanks! But I don't see your definition on this thread. Could you add it/link it? I'd love to see it!

BM: Interesting idea about throwing out old heuristics. I can't help but wonder if "The Island" didn't have an effect on experiments/experimentors that allowed for some counter-intuitive leaps re: heuristics.

[drabauer]

My apologies spooky; I thought there was only one acronym thread. Anyway, my definition was repeated by rvt, more or less. I want to highlight this:

Given some of the things we know about THF, I can't help but wonder if a focus on short-cuts/rules-of-thumb doesn’t speak to an underlying philosophical bent shown by THF. Get it done as fast as possible, by whatever means available, damn the consequences... it kind of seems to be their attitude. They don’t exactly seem to epitomize careful, ethical science. Maybe that’s why were so many “incidents” on the island.

Truer words may never have been spoke on this board! Whether its doublespeak or a big clue, I think we know why they need private funding!

[aggiesean]

My apologies spooky; I thought there was only one acronym thread. Anyway, my definition was repeated by rvt, more or less. I want to highlight this:

Given some of the things we know about THF, I can't help but wonder if a focus on short-cuts/rules-of-thumb doesn’t speak to an underlying philosophical bent shown by THF. Get it done as fast as possible, by whatever means available, damn the consequences... it kind of seems to be their attitude. They don’t exactly seem to epitomize careful, ethical science. Maybe that’s why were so many “incidents” on the island.

Truer words may never have been spoke on this board! Whether its doublespeak or a big clue, I think we know why they need private funding!
Research needs funding, whether public or private. But one thing that's been bothering me about this is: what about oversight? I'm lucky enough that my research involves no living specimens, only atmospheric phenomena. But doesn't bringing in living beings at least double the paperwork and oversight?

And true, The Hanso Foundation is powerful enough that they don't need this oversight, but DHARMA itself had two ideological founders: the Degroots of the University of Michigan. As a public university, wouldn't it be subject to this oversight? Even worse, if word got out about the terrible things happening in conjunction with UM research, wouldn't the university be forced to defend its reputation and crack down on DHARMA?

Cast in another light...

If the ARG writers made University of Michigan part of the bad guys in a storyline connected to a multi-million-viewer show, the Wolverines would sue ABC. :rolleyez:


I guess I'm asking those of us who deal with this in real life
a) How much oversight would DHARMA be under as a UM entity
b) How much oversight would DHARMA be under as a Hanso entity
c) Could this relate to what McIntyre said on Jimmy Kimmel Live about DHARMA "ending" in 1987, though we know this isn't the case? Perhaps 1987 is when it went from UM control to Hanso control.

:Cowdance:

[Penelope]

Aggie - my husband works on live subjects (albeit animal) but there is uber supervision from the government as a result of the public funding he receives. Such supervision includes random check ups that are unannounced. That is why I am reluctant to associate DHARMA with a university because they would have far more supervision than if this was a privately funded endeavor. There would indeed be more paperwork, and protocols to be followed with using live subjects, animal or human, in the public university setting.

[rvturnage]

Oh, i'm sure DHARMA has not connection to a university. I was under the impression that the Degroots left the University to found/help with DHARMA. And , this is strictly speculation here, but I'd guess that The Degroots had no idea how their research would be used by HANSO.

rvt

[aggiesean]

Oh, i'm sure DHARMA has not connection to a university. I was under the impression that the Degroots left the University to found/help with DHARMA. And , this is strictly speculation here, but I'd guess that The Degroots had no idea how their research would be used by HANSO.

rvt
The last "time" we saw the Degroots was 1980, according to the time stamps on the "Orientation" and "?" videos where they appear. In that "Orientation" video, the Degroots are connected to both DHARMA and the University of Michigan, which makes me think that, in the year 1980, DHARMA work was not so bad (or at least little enough was known about it) that the University of Michigan could be connected to the Degroots like this. We've had this issue in my field in terms of global warming, where professors with more "radical" ideas are sometimes asked not to affiliate their opinions with the university. I'd say DHARMA as we know it now qualifies as "radical."

That being said, I'm thinking of this type of timeline:

Pre-1980: DHARMA initiative founded by University of Michigan scientists with funding from The Hanso Foundation.
1987: DHARMA "closed", as in its activity ceases from the UM standpoint...
post-1987: ...only to be continued by the Hanso Foundation itself, where it can operate more freely as its own entity.

:Cowdance:

[Penelope]

Aggie -- I like that theory. Makes sense. Now do you think the DeGroots are still actively involved with Dharma??

Remember how we used to suspect that Zeke (when seen taking Walt at the end of S1) was Gerald DeGroot? Could that possibly be why he was to wear the beard on the island - to pose as DeGroot?

I have serious doubts that the DeGroots remain active in DHARMA, for several reasons:

1. Their research at U of Mich was in the 70s and it is now some 30 years later.
2. Beyond that Orientation video - have we seen them again? NO
3. However, the recent link of Mittelwerk to Michigan area makes me think they are still a part of the story. Maybe their research was shut down and then taken over by Hanso - moving in directions they did not like, which made them step away.

[bigmouth]

Apologies for being a Snoot (not usually my style) but I fear we're not quite getting the definition of heuristics right. They are shortcuts, yes, but not in a conscious sense. The concept connotes cognitive biases that govern our "gut" instincts.

Here's an example of a mental heuristic: human beings are hard-wired to be reciprocal. As a result, when I give you something, no matter how small, your instinct is automatically to give something back. That's why so many businesses will give customers small gifts (think of those labels you get in the mail around the holidays). They're exploting the heuristic of reciprocity in hopes you'll give them business.

In that regard, the acronym DHARMA makes a lot of sense to me. They were psychologists studying the cognitive biases of humans and animals. That's not to say Spooky and Doc A are wrong about the metaphorical significance (i.e., DHARMA took shortcuts in their work). Again, however, heuristics has a very specific connotation in psychology, so far as I'm aware. See, for example, the Cialdini book I cited.

And if you assume that DHARMA's goal was to prevent us from destroying the planet, you can see why they might be inclined to study heuristics. Some say the world is in such a terrible predicament because of our outdated cognitive biases. Alternatively, perhaps DHARMA sought to exploit heuristics to manipulate people into being better global citizens.

[drabauer]

Interesting bigmouth, good point. And I support that in no way was DHARMA continued under a university banner. The U Mich ref is to highlight where the DeGroots came from, but likely as not they spent 1980-87 under the aegis of Hanso. The "split" in 1987 is one of the many mysteries to be unraveled. I have an inkling, though, that it will relate to something that took 20 years; thus in 2007 in the game we may see the fruits of it.

[spooky]

BM, I agree that it’s not fair to make the correlation between heuristic “short cuts” and THF’s lacks of ethics, but it sure is tempting to do so (metaphorically, of course :)). And I like that you’re making a connection between psychological heuristics which are more behaviorial in nature (like reciprocity), with manipulation and social engineering. I’ve been thinking more in terms of psychological heuristics as dealing with internal thought processes (like decision making processes in chess players (original, key studies by a guy named deGroot, no less)). Dharma’s link to Skinner may be skewing my vision. Behaviorism seems like the most unlikley branch of psychology to have anything to do with psychological heuristics because of Skinner’s rejection of anything to do with the inner workings of the mind, per se. But if we’re talking about psychological heuristics specific to observable behavior, then it makes more sense to me.

I still can’t really buy into the idea that the Heuristics part of the acronym applies only, or most importantly, to the psychological research Dharma was doing. It’s still way too limited, to me, given the breadth of fields Dharma was studying. I’m not sure I can agree when you offer a definition of heuristic short cuts as connoting "cognitive biases that govern our "gut" instincts.” Maybe I’m not understanding exactly what you mean, but that seems to have an overly psychological/evolutionary bent compared to a more general understanding of heuristics.


Part of the problem of understanding heuristics is simply that it can be so many things, both general and specific, in a variety of scientific fields, and as simple rules-of-thumb we use in everyday life. The concept of heuristic “short cuts” could be anything from the old adage “red sky at night, sailor’s delight,” to a mathematical short cut like Euclid’s algorithm for finding the greatest common divisor, to complex sets of heuristic short cuts used in programming for AI; or boring old logic-based, time-saving search algorithms for something like, say, taxomony trees in zoology (okay I had to google for the last one for rvt :)).

I’ve been reading a book called Methods of Heuristics, and this seems like a pretty good definition of Heuristic in the general sense:

Nowadays the main usage of the word "heuristic" is mostly the adjective in the sense of "guiding discovery" or "improving problem solving." There might also be a slightly negative meaning attached to it of a less than perfect method or a lack of solution guarantee. The modern picture of a search for the solution, which might be intelligently directed but still has its inherent uncertainty, leads to its origin in ancient Greece where the verb "heuriskein" means to find. In the history of science we find attempts to formulate methods for finding proofs and for arriving at new discoveries. They belong to what was sometimes called the art of discovery, or later, heuristics. Later on, the history of heuristics can be best characterized as a search for algorithms. Algorithms are step-by-step procedures that "mechanically" produce a solution to any problem out of a certain class of problems.

[rvturnage]

...boring old logic-based, time-saving search algorithms for something like, say, taxomony trees in zoology (okay I had to google for the last one for rvt :)).

LOL...Thanks! I googled that and came up with an article on a "hitch-hiking heuristic (http://taxonomy.zoology.gla.ac.uk/~mac/hitchhiking/hh.html)"...I think I'm starting to get it.

I’ve been reading a book called Methods of Heuristics, and this seems like a pretty good definition of Heuristic in the general sense:

Nowadays the main usage of the word "heuristic" is mostly the adjective in the sense of "guiding discovery" or "improving problem solving." There might also be a slightly negative meaning attached to it of a less than perfect method or a lack of solution guarantee. The modern picture of a search for the solution, which might be intelligently directed but still has its inherent uncertainty, leads to its origin in ancient Greece where the verb "heuriskein" means to find. In the history of science we find attempts to formulate methods for finding proofs and for arriving at new discoveries. They belong to what was sometimes called the art of discovery, or later, heuristics. Later on, the history of heuristics can be best characterized as a search for algorithms. Algorithms are step-by-step procedures that "mechanically" produce a solution to any problem out of a certain class of problems.

This definition helps a lot, actually. I'm interested in this "art of discovery" as well as characterizing Heuristics as a search for algorithms...algorithms that may produce a solution to Valenzeti?

[drabauer]

Thank you spooky; I agree 100%. Heuristics is a technical term used in mathematics and physics simply to describe any problem-solving method that is new but can be formalized. I could give you thousands of citations!

Without anything more to go on, I would assume the mathematical meaning because that is the most generalizable.

[twinkletoesx]

while I was very enthusiastic to find a copenhagen example of heuristic study identical to the swan and pearl hatch videos (user testing), I can also agree with spooky and drabauer and whoever else comes along and thinks so, that Heauristics in the Dharma name is as broad as possible so that it can be the umbrella term or catch-all phrase for anything the scientists thought of, for years to come.

[Batman Laz0r]

Again, however, heuristics has a very specific connotation in psychology, so far as I'm aware. See, for example, the Cialdini book I cited.

Sneaking this in, just for info's sake, even though I'm wondering more if heuristics has more to do with the Valenzetti equation: cognitive heuristics (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=752098&postcount=54)(in particular, social cognitive heuristics)


Some say the world is in such a terrible predicament because of our outdated cognitive biases.

To give a niddly piddly counterpoint to this, our cognitive biases aren't really outdated. They're extremely useful to us (and necessary in order to function as we do) and though they can be made to fail in certain situations, they usually work correctly.

[The drip]

I'd like to say that I found this thread very interesting, you are all brilliant.

I just have something to add. I don't know that much about heuristics and its relation in different areas but by now many of you may have heard of anti-virus programs that operate using heuristics. The point of a heuristic antivirus program put simply is that it can detect patterns based against a a database of sorts. This is a quick way of finding a virus without having to know the precise iteration.

So in a sense it is a "shortcut" because it is utilizing pattern recongnition to find answers instead of doing it the typical scientific way of conducting an experiment and only when you can repeat a result over and over again is it recognized by the entire scientific body that you have discovered something.

One area in real-life that would probably be much happier if they utilized patterns to realize answers would be sub-atomic research and quantum physics. To find smaller and smaller sub-atomic particles they have to use colliders and in order for it to be recognized that a particle does exist, the occurance of detection has to occur a certain number of times. However, many scientists who work smashing together atoms to release those sub-atomic particles believe that certain particles smaller than muons and taos, smaller than anything we have recorded with "certainty" do exist, but they just can't say that they actually do exist because the rate of detection doesn't meet scientific criteria. Thus, if a corporation were trying to discover certain things to make advances faster than their competition, they would make up their own rules.

So if a corporate scientist were to discover something but were unable to reproduce the results to convice the scientific community, but were able to produce the required result at least enough to convince the companies CEO then the company might be tempted to go along with its research anyway.

So, the implications of this is precisely what some of you have been saying, that Hanso Foundation may be exploiting properties of the universe that they don't understand, but because they know how to "control" these things for their own use, they go ahead anyway.

Hanso Foundation may be the very virus that is leading to the ultimate destruction of the world while masquerading as the saviour, the "cure" and the ones with answers to all our problems. But the "others" may be the only ones who know the truth.

[drabauer]

I'm glad that you brought up the anti-virus program, the drip, because I think viruses will be important to the story (in the area of genomic advancement as well as life enhancement). I know a postdoc in bio-mathematics who works on viruses, in an eerily parallel situation. His field reconstructs the evolution of organisms (of any type) and tries to predict what they might develop into using similar heuristics. His team is working on HIV because the funding is there, and because the HIV virus mutates at an alarmingly fast rate (which is why it's so far been impossible to beat). They are trying to figure out the mechanisms of virus evolution in a kind of reverse engineering based on observable mutations.

I just wanted to add that to insert the idea of evolution and mutation into ongoing discussions regarding research and prediction in Dharma experiments.

[RichardR]

Thank you spooky; I agree 100%. Heuristics is a technical term used in mathematics and physics simply to describe any problem-solving method that is new but can be formalized. I could give you thousands of citations!

Without anything more to go on, I would assume the mathematical meaning because that is the most generalizable.

I'm going to completely disagree. A heuristic does not have anything to do with math, psychology, or physics in the context used. It's being used as a noun. Meaning a multiple of techniques are being used to solve one problem.

[twinkletoesx]

I am going to say something just so we can move on to page 7. Heuristics is a big term to be vague, about as vague as the word "electromagnetic anomaly" and "utmost importance".

Think World War II and how the vague words are chosen to hide if not completely sugar coat the truth: Remember how "the final solution" was really mass murder and genocide.

Bottom line: I don't trust their "heuristics application"

[J_C]

The Department of Heuristics blah, blah blah
Translated:
The Department of figuring things out while you do them.
You've merely stumbled upon the writing department at ABC.

It could also be a reference to the theorizing of the shows fans.

Would you like some tartar suace with that red herring?
As regards to it solving the acronym mystery; nope.

[~G~]

The Department of Heuristics blah, blah blah
Translated:
The Department of figuring things out while you do them.
You've merely stumbled upon the writing department at ABC.

It could also be a reference to the theorizing of the shows fans.

Would you like some tartar suace with that red herring?
As regards to it solving the acronym mystery; nope.

Ummm...that is what it stands for. The acronym mystery is solved. Like some mustard with that crow?

[minywheats]

The Department of Heuristics blah, blah blah
Translated:
The Department of figuring things out while you do them.
You've merely stumbled upon the writing department at ABC.

It could also be a reference to the theorizing of the shows fans.

Would you like some tartar suace with that red herring?
As regards to it solving the acronym mystery; nope.

I dont rag people offten but you my friend need to insert your foot into your mouth and go back to surfing the forums again:banghead: