The polarization between webmaze and GD, T & S, et. al

[see you in the next life]

I am becoming more and more dismayed by the reticence to accept as canon things that are learned from the Lost Experience by those who are not participating in it.

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that everyone must participate to enjoy the show.

It just seems to me that it is obvious that learning ancillary history about the Hanso Foundation and the Dharma Initiative is valuable because on one level or another it does tie to the show. If TPTB are creaing it, then it is canon.

For example, if we learn the entire history of the Black Rock, and if that is never completely explored on the show itself, wouldn't you think that those who are not participating in the ARG would at least like to know. I find it amazing that, at this moment, we in the ARG know what the Dharma acronym stands for.....and the remainder of the board does not. Granted, that will probably be revealed in due time on the show.....but there are plenty of things that might not.........Adam & Eve, Black Rock, and the list goes on and on.

Further, those in T & S who have developed expansive theories (Pinnerman, Lacenaire, NeillT06, bigmouth, and Yung23 - to name a few), might benefit from seeing, for example, those streaming images that Persephone provided us with yesterday. I posted on each of their major theory threads and extolled them on the possibilities of furthering their theories if they watched the video stream. Heck, they might even be able to help us determine what a few of those images are.

So far, the response has been not so good. Some can't get past the fact that they don't drink Sprite, and while I don't like the commercialism.....is it really any different than the commercialism that is crammed down our throats during each commerical break.....or does anyone here believe ABC is bringing us LOST out of the goodness of their hearts?

The fact is, the Lost Experience IS CANON!

I cannot believe that anyone who takes the time to develop an incredibly elaborate theory about the show would not be interested in the radio tower off-shore from Korea....or the images of volcanic eruptions and nuclear detonations depicted in the streaming video.

I have attempted to reach out to a few of those who have been long-termers here. I guess we are still awaiting a response.

[ebos]

wow.... well said!

you win the internet... all of it.

[Zamboni]

Rock on.

[see you in the next life]

CANON =


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/Orientation%20flashes/f11.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/other/LivingRoom.jpg


REASONS THEY SHOULD SEE IT =

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/Orientation%20flashes/z21.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/DeathMountain/Other/hansovid5.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/Orientation%20flashes/r11.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/Orientation%20flashes/h51.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/Orientation%20flashes/g161.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/Orientation%20flashes/e81.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/Orientation%20flashes/c61.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/Orientation%20flashes/d11.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/Orientation%20flashes/d51.jpg

[Penelope]

I do not agree SYITNL - some people prefer to look ONLY AT THE SHOW to elaborate their theories and discussions. Let's not force this on them. Its not fair to shove a game down the throats of viewers who are not playing to go upstairs and just post these clues as canon for theories and such because they are not directly from THE TELEVISION SHOW. I understand and respect the line that should be drawn there.

We need to have a T&S thread based on the webmaze here. This has been broached with the BUILDING THE STORYLINE BEHIND THE CLUES thread and could be further elaborated if the moderators of the forum agree we need to keep ARG-based theories separate. But that is not something I am to decide. I will continue to respect the rules and keep what I learned about the show from the ARG out of the upstairs. I post up there a lot, its not that hard.

Just my 2 cents on keeping the balance of the force here....

[~G~]

Pen- I agree. It is obvious that not everyone wants to partake of this summer fun. And that is what it is. A way to keep a section of devoted LOST fans satiated. Not every devoted LOST fan needs, nor wants, this.

I agree, also, with SYITNL, for purely selfish reasons. There are brilliant theorists upstairs. I would love to have their insight and brain power involved in this experience. Zamboni's theory, for example, started in T&S, and came down here. Thankfully, ZZamboni did also, and his/her (sorry, I don't know) contributuons have been wonderful.

Not everyone wants things laid out. The enjoyment they receive is from creating their own theories. And those theories that work, are brilliant. Why can't they have that, and we have this?

[DarthKitty]

Eventually the info we are getting in the ARG will appear on the show. We are just finding out all this info earlier. It will all work out in the wash for everyone. We'll just know first!!! :)

[aggiesean]

Is it possible to discuss the same basic theory by some of the expansive T&S threads and re-focus on it here as well? The main thread in T&S can remain ARG-free, as per the board's wishes, and we can discuss/alter the theories as the ARG sees fit.

ETA:
Eventually the info we are getting in the ARG will appear on the show. We are just finding out all this info earlier. It will all work out in the wash for everyone. We'll just know first!!! :)
Not necessarily. I heard from either TVguide or Entertainment Weekly that the Experience was meant to supplement the show's mythology, and that not everything from the Experience would make it on the show.
:Cowdance:

[see you in the next life]

As I stated previously...................

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating that everyone must participate to enjoy the show.




All I am stressing is that it would be awful nice to have some of the theorists examine the images, etc. It might help us and could solidify their theories.

It is a long summer with little else in the LOST realm.

I post at least as much in GD & T S as I do in the webmaze.

There is good deal of brain power there also. I am reaching out to try and harness some of it.

[VeeAyetheCPA]

All I am stressing is that it would be awful nice to have some of the theorists examine the images, etc. It might help us and could solidify their theories.



Just remember the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." While it is frustrating that they don't "see the light" that we do, you can't force them to do so. I've seen enough turmoil with similar situations dealing with religion.

[see you in the next life]

Just an update.

Pinnerman is looking at it. JaysTao seems interested.

[see you in the next life]

From General Discussion, I give you our own Drabauer:


"We have been led to believe by TPTB that the Lost Experience ARG and the television series would exist as parallel worlds, worlds with common touchstones, but neither dependent on the other.


Quote:
"The game reaches back into 'Lost' history and looks forward to future episodes," said Mike Benson, senior vice president of marketing for ABC Entertainment.

You don't need to be one of those hard-core fans who've memorized every episode, he said. "We wanted to make it so that if you watched 'Lost' from the beginning or if you've never watched the show before you can get into this."

The game is specifically designed in a manner that is not dependent on information from season one or season two.

Nevertheless today those who follow the online game received information that I believe contradicts this statement. Or, if it doesn't contradict it, it makes it almost impossible to continue theorizing about Lost without referencing the Experience, especially if this information is but the first of more revelations intimately connected to the show.

For those who will read the item to which I refer, this thread is meant to debate whether 1) I am overstating the case, or 2) whether the intermingling of show back story and game poses problems to our ongoing discussions here at losttv-forums.

I want to theorize in theories and spec; I don't have time to debate endlessly the details of the ARG in that forum (which moves at lightning speed and functions more like a chatroom). Yet as I follow at a casual distance, I will have to pull out of more and more debates because I "know too much."

[Zamboni]

Pen- I agree. It is obvious that not everyone wants to partake of this summer fun. And that is what it is. A way to keep a section of devoted LOST fans satiated. Not every devoted LOST fan needs, nor wants, this.

I agree, also, with SYITNL, for purely selfish reasons. There are brilliant theorists upstairs. I would love to have their insight and brain power involved in this experience. Zamboni's theory, for example, started in T&S, and came down here. Thankfully, ZZamboni did also, and his/her (sorry, I don't know) contributuons have been wonderful.

Not everyone wants things laid out. The enjoyment they receive is from creating their own theories. And those theories that work, are brilliant. Why can't they have that, and we have this?

His, to be exact. And thank you!

[Vincent_Madison]

Just remember the old saying, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink." While it is frustrating that they don't "see the light" that we do, you can't force them to do so. I've seen enough turmoil with similar situations dealing with religion.

This is a good thread with good opinions.

I myself have no trouble understanding that some people just want to watch the show and not get involved with the LOST Experience or any webmaze stuff for that matter.

I have trouble understanding the people who have indepth theories about LOST that choose (or somehow are unable) to think "out of the box" and focus on the definition of "Real" and "Fake", "Canon" and "ARG".

If you enjoy LOST as a TV show - great. watch it and enjoy.

The problem is that most people want more, and you CANNOT draw a line defining which side is which. (I know - people will argue the point. - if it's not in the show - it's not Canon.) Well - now we are finding things in the LOST Experience that ARE in the show. (No big surprise there.)

I also agree that you can't force people to agree with you or do something if they do not want to.

Does that mean we should not promote and communicate to possibly encourage, educate or enlighten?

No - we just need to be careful about the medium and how we do it.

PM's or Posts that are worded to direct and encourage without "spoiling" are ok in my books.

Personally - I feel sorry for people who are not able to look at everything LOST related and draw their own conclusions, but respect their right to do so. I sometimes wonder why they come to places like LOST-TV though.
Internet boards are always a forum for open discussion and ideas, and trying to censor them or even stringently structure them can be a bad thing. We need structure to avoid chaos though - and I think the mods here at LOST-TV do an awesome job. Better than any other boards I have been on.

So - no easy answers here IMHO.

I think some of the LOST Experience is really lame, but there are parts that I think are very important to understanding the whole of LOST.

I can live with that without the show (or the Experience) being ruined for me.

It's like life. Somedays - life sucks and there are really lame experiences.

Some days the sun shines and life is good. Sometimes people deceive and other times they lift you up.

Enough of my ramblings....

Just wanted to throw my thoughts out there...

VM :)


ETA: I HAVE noticed some faces that are "new" to Spin Offs but have been around LOST-TV for a long time participating down here more - and I think that is great.

[Zamboni]

Call me crazy, but the the characters stopping to spout ads mid story kind of has an interesting familiarity to it.

Has anyone listened to old radio dramas, where mid-show the actors themselves stop and say "Now a word from our sponsors" before going into an advertisement for Rich Chocolate Ovaltine or Daisy Red Rider BB Guns?

It is such a time honored tradition that a modern old timey radio variety show does the same thing with Podermilk Biscuits, Bebopareebop Rhubarb Pies and the Ketchup Advisory Board (any PHC fans in the hizzouse, can I get a what what?).

The truth is, in some ways, the characters working the ads into the story kind of reminds me of that in a perverted way. In some ways, with the DJ Dan podcasts, there are aspects of this which remind me of an interactive version of a radio drama, complete with hidden messages and decoder rings which sometimes reveal plot points, sometimes reveal ads.

Is this a totally loony perspective, or does anybody else agree with me? Just remember to drink your rich chocolate ovaltine.

[see you in the next life]

Vincent_Madison.............if you were a woman, I'd marry you.


As for ads, you know..............there are plenty of ads shown during the show.

Trust me, if you think ABC has altruistic intentions for putting LOST on the air each week, you better think again.

As long as they keep the ARG going, they can run "Oops I crapped my pants" ads.

In fact, maybe Alvar is wearing one right now.

[jlmlostarg]

I agree about the ads. So far, we have only had to manuever thru sponsor sites, not sit and wait for a commercial to finish playing before we could get the information we seek. It would be a different story if we had to go buy a can of Sprite and drink it to see a code printed on the inside bottom of the can. THEN I would have a problem...

As far as T & S goes, I really don't think there will be too much to worry about when season 3 kicks off. The show will very likely mention things that we players have already seen, but they will re-explain it for the viewers. We will all just be sitting there saying, "Yep...knew that already."

To quote Andrew "Dice" Clay- "Dat...Dat's what I tink. Oh!"

[Jeannie]

SYITNL, while I appreciate your enthusiasm, I think you are doing more harm than good by arguing in the GD thread. People will (and should) make up their own minds. You can't tell them what they should or shouldn't think - about commercials or the webmaze.

I think Vincent said it best here:

No - we just need to be careful about the medium and how we do it.


If you think there is someone who would benefit from being here, and who we would benefit from having their insight, then PM them. Don't go and post that "The webmaze is canon." It will just upset those who don't want to know about the webmaze.

And from drabauer's post which you quote above:

For those who will read the item to which I refer, this thread is meant to debate whether 1) I am overstating the case, or 2) whether the intermingling of show back story and game poses problems to our ongoing discussions here at losttv-forums.

I want to theorize in theories and spec; I don't have time to debate endlessly the details of the ARG in that forum (which moves at lightning speed and functions more like a chatroom). Yet as I follow at a casual distance, I will have to pull out of more and more debates because I "know too much." (Emphasis mine)

She is concerned about how the maze is affecting the board in general - which is here for all the casual viewers as well as those of us who are "geeks." Those people may very well not want any mention of webmaze items in other forums, and I believe that we should respect that wish.

Not trying to cause problems here, just pointing out that we need to be respectful of the rest of the board here. Especially if we want them to be respectful of us. Just my two cents.

[Zamboni]

I think, ultimately, there needs to be a second T&S board for theories that combine show+ARG. We're just scratching the surface of theories that can be extrapolated from the new data, and don't properly have a forum to do it. Webmaze forum has done well so far, but I really don't want to see it cluttered by speculation and theories. I'd like to see it more geared towards coordinating efforts towards solving immediate riddles in the webgame.

Just my ostentatiously humble opinionation.

[see you in the next life]

Jeannie, Drabauer started the thread in General Discussion, NOT ME. She obviously thinks it is a pertinent topic of discussion....;and believe me, I am going out of my way to not offend there. It is, in my opinion, a valid discussion.....since it appears that TPTB have blurred the line between Lost Experience "island mythology not pertinent to the show" and stuff pertinent to the show (Black Rock, Magnus Hanso, etc, the black horse, polar bears, etc. etc.).


I think her overriding point is that she feels that TPTB have broken their word about the Experience by including things that are INTIMATELY CONNECTED to the show.....and that by necessity it is forcing everyone to more closely look at the Experience or risk being left out in the cold.

[Penelope]

Jeannie, Drabauer started the thread in General Discussion, NOT ME. She obviously thinks it is a pertinent topic of discussion....;and believe me, I am going out of my way to not offend there. It is, in my opinion, a valid discussion.....since it appears that TPTB have blurred the line between Lost Experience "island mythology not pertinent to the show" and stuff pertinent to the show (Black Rock, Magnus Hanso, etc, the black horse, polar bears, etc. etc.).



I think what Jeannie and some of us are trying to say here is that for some people, they don't CARE what we learn in this ARG if it is NOT on the show. My husband watches LOST, and when I told him about the Black Rock last night he was furious. He didn't want to know that unless the ACTUAL TELEVISION SHOW brings it out. IF this game is an essential for all viewers of Lost to watch, then your argument here has merit. But TPTB do not intend this ARG to be something you MUST follow to watch the show and thus, engage in discussion. If those upstairs do not wish to have their theories spoiled by information from the game, we ought to respect that. I think calling something Canon to a group of people who are not participating in the maze is unfair to the thoughts and theories they have worked hard to develop and discuss up there. I just don't want to see another 'us versus them' start in the forum over this discussion. I have felt comfortable recently posting upstairs and would hate to see this discussion start another forum war.

[LPU]

I think that's what it's devolving into though, Pen; Us vs. Them, just like S3's theme. Though I spend most of my time in GD I do check in here for the amazing updates on the ARG (thanks guys!). I don't think anyone wants to see a chasm between forums on this board, but damn it's gotten heated in GD over this.

[see you in the next life]

Listen, Drabauer started a thread entitled LOST and the LOST Experience in the General Discussion section of the board. SHE obviously felt it was pertinent.

If Homer and the "others" don't want it talked about in their forum, let them move it. I didn't start the thread, but since it is there I have been involved in the discussion. It is, after all, a discussion board. I have spoiler tagged stuff that needed to be.

I do find it incredibly funny that Lacenaire keeps telling me that the Experience is not reliable, as though it was made up by 2 geeks on the internet. The fact is, Damon & Carlton announced the Lost Experience. They don't have to participate (believe me, I respect that) but to act like it is some big summer hoax is stupefying.

[LPU]

Hope it didn't sound like I was attacking you above syitnl, just making note of the contentions in GD right now.

[~G~]

I am deleting this. I am sorry to have even written it.

SYITNL-I apologize. I had no place to get snarky...

[see you in the next life]

ALL that is required to post something is A SPOILER TAG (and the common courtesy of simply asking if they would be interesting in having a look at something). That was established long ago. I believe I met those requirements and did so in a thread about the Lost Experience that was started, not by me, in the General Discussion forum.

[see you in the next life]

You know, in the final analysis, all I did was simply ask NeillT006, lacenaire, Pinnerman, bigmouth, and Yung23 if they might be interested in looking at a few images to see if they could identify anything, while suggesting that they might get furtherance of a theory from it. I used spoiler tags and said pretty please, may I. I did so in T & S.

The controversy didn't really begin until I saw Drabauer's post in General Discussion. I offered an opinion in a thread I didn't start in a forum I didn't choose as the approrpiate place for said thread.

Really, that's it.

[~G~]

Ditto for this one.

[PandoraX]

I see what you are saying, syitnl, and agree on the part of most of it being canon, to the show, however, I agree what Pen and lamet said about respecting other people's rights to avoid seeing the information if they don't want to see it. Parallel this with spoilers. What Damon and Carlton tell us in their podcasts and interviews is official canon, too... very often, general hints about where show is heading... and many people don't consider these true spoilers. But some people just want to only know information from new shows... they don't even watch previews. That's certainly not the way I prefer to watch, but that's me. It's not my job to cram information down people's throats if they don't want it.

I posted a thread on what the DHARMA acronym stands for in the Spoilers forum, where I put that it was ARG related clearly in the title, and I tried not to discuss details about the webmaze aside from the information... and it was very well received by nonwebmazers. I think this was because people knew what to expect, and I put it in the proper format so that only those seeking the info would get it. I haven't seen anyone who used webmaze info in spoiler tags get flamed for it either. So really, it's not like people are saying you can't ever mention ARG info outside this forum... it's more about how you format it.

[see you in the next life]

Pan X..............listen, I love your stuff in here. I used SPOILER FONT. Pinnerman is responsive and is going to look at it and give me his opinion. That is all I asked for. Note: asked for. I made no demands of anyone. Thought they might be interested. That's all.

The hubub is all over the thread in GD that I did not start. Drabauer did. She must have thought she had a good reason to. I happen to agree with her. That's all.

[dragon44]

It's not my job to cram information down people's throats if they don't want it.



ya know, these threads and spoiler boxes don't open themselves...

[Zamboni]

I think at this point everybody is arguing the same point, just worded differently, and it is beginning to degenerate into semantics.

[Jeannie]

SYITNL, I respect your enthusiasm. But if you feel that was the point of drabauer's post (and I read it a little differently, as in she is concerned that the webmaze stuff and her knowledge of it will leak into T&S causing her to be leery of what she posts for fear of spoiling) it is still her "battle to fight." You could have gone in, posted your agreement, and moved on. You keep saying the same things over and over, arguing with people like lacenaire who is never going to agree with you... and in the meantime the "us against them" attitude that has been slowly being overcome is growing again.

You made a request in T&S, and you got some reponses you liked and some you didn't (as evidenced by your starting of THIS thread.) And that's fine. Hopefully you will lure some of those people over to help us out. But folks have to come of their own free will.

And sometimes in a battle like that thread has dissolved into, the best thing to do is to back out and just stop posting. If drabauer feels that there is more to be said about it, she'll be back to add to what she wrote. Somehow I feel confident that whatever she originally meant, she didn't mean for it to turn into this mess.

[see you in the next life]

thanks, Dragon44.


I happen to think Yung23, lacenaire, Pinnerman, bigmouth, and NeillT006 are pretty bright. Their input, if they desire to provide it, might be very productive for us, and maybe even for them. Seemed like a good idea at the time, and like I said, Pinnerman seems responsive to it. And like you said, SPOILER BOXES don't open themselves.

[see you in the next life]

Jeannie............I respect everything you said.

[Zamboni]

I stay out of GD completely (except for Non-Metalllic Metals. That thread is HY-Larious!) because I don't like flame wars as a rule. Believe you me, I have enough drama in my life without artificial internet drama.

Ultimately, any choice made is going to be a compromise. No single solution will make everybody happy. Only some sort of middle ground solution will begin to make everybody happy. Nobody can force their own preferences/ideas on somebody else. That's what governments and news media are for, not internet discussion forums about a TV show.

[PandoraX]

syitnl: Apologies, I must be out of it, because I thought you were refering to a totally different thread issue that was in T&S. Shows how out of it I am with nonwebmazers (now that I've joined this new ARG community)... I haven't really checked much of GD lately... but that was a good thread to check, and I added my $0.02. THanks for pointing it out.

[RichardR]

Listen, Drabauer started a thread entitled LOST and the LOST Experience in the General Discussion section of the board. SHE obviously felt it was pertinent.

If Homer and the "others" don't want it talked about in their forum, let them move it. I didn't start the thread, but since it is there I have been involved in the discussion. It is, after all, a discussion board. I have spoiler tagged stuff that needed to be.

I do find it incredibly funny that Lacenaire keeps telling me that the Experience is not reliable, as though it was made up by 2 geeks on the internet. The fact is, Damon & Carlton announced the Lost Experience. They don't have to participate (believe me, I respect that) but to act like it is some big summer hoax is stupefying.

She says she was led to believe that Lost and TLE were parallel and would not cross paths. I read that TLE would bring forward clues that directly relate to the Lost show that would allow people to form conclusions about the tv show.
Anyway. I think ultimately people on the GD side seem perturbed that TLE is now recycling clues that should or could have been resolved by just watching the show. It seems a great deal of people didn't put together things that could have been put together. Likewise for those that had the accurate conclusions on the GD side the webmaze isn't particularly enlightening. Yes it confirms things some of us thought, but I was just as confident about it's accuracy even without specific validation.

[see you in the next life]

Pan X............no worries. I believe Jeannie is right. I tried to solicit a response from theorizers I have great respect for, got some positive and negative responses, and then got myself into a messy, unresolvable debate in GD. Best to let Drabauer fight her own battles since only she can really know exactly what she meant to do when she started the thread.

Make no mistake, though. Damon & Carlton announced this Lost Experience. For me, that makes it canon.


THIS IS NOT COPENHAGEN.JPG
THIS IS NOT COPENHAGEN.JPG
THIS IS NOT COPENHAGEN.JPG

SYSTEM TERMINATION
SYSTEM TERMINATION
SYSTEM TERMINATION

[Jeannie]

Can I save this I believe Jeannie is right. and show it to my kids? LOL.

And I agree with you, there is no way TLE isn't the real deal. Damon and Carlton did say so, and those who want to dismiss that do so at their own peril. But they also have the absolute right to dismiss it if they choose.

[LAN]

I think at this point everybody is arguing the same point, just worded differently, and it is beginning to degenerate into semantics.

Hey watch it buddy....on a GOOD DAY my life reaches the level of semantics......on a GREAT DAY debauchery. :)

[RichardR]

Can I save this and show it to my kids? LOL.

And I agree with you, there is no way TLE isn't the real deal. Damon and Carlton did say so, and those who want to dismiss that do so at their own peril. But they also have the absolute right to dismiss it if they choose.

Consider that on top of that they said there would be "web based" revelations that were not part of TLE and they would/could completely deny they had anything to do with it.

[see you in the next life]

RichardR:

"Anyway. I think ultimately people on the GD side seem perturbed that TLE is now recycling clues that should or could have been resolved by just watching the show. It seems a great deal of people didn't put together things that could have been put together. Likewise for those that had the accurate conclusions on the GD side the webmaze isn't particularly enlightening. Yes it confirms things some of us thought, but I was just as confident about it's accuracy even without specific validation."


There are those who would argue that a good show is straight-forward and simple to understand. Do you agree with that?

Certainly you agree this show is anything but that. We are 2 seasons in and most would say they still do not know what the major story arc is. There is still great debate as evidenced by the great work of many of you in T & S.

To say that the Black Rock has been figured out or should have been on the show is to only scratch the surface. Example: "How did the thing get into the middle of the island?" The webmaze has not solved that question, at least NOT YET.....and it might not ever. But we do know now that Magnus Hanso is not Alvar, as was speculated, but rather an ancestor. We know that he was associated with the Black Rock.

Should the casual viewer have discerned that? I mean, in the 10 seconds that the Blast Door Map was visible. I have friends who think it is crazy that I spend so much time on the losttv board. They say a person shouldn't have to do that to watch the show. Yes, we here are not critical of those who spend hours screen-capping shots of the Blast Door Map and we use their findings to support our theories and beliefs.

My point is, can you honestly say that you figured out the entire story of the Black Rock?

[RichardR]

RichardR:



To say that the Black Rock has been figured out or should have been on the show is to only scratch the surface. Example: "How did the thing get into the middle of the island?" The webmaze has not solved that question, at least NOT YET.....and it might not ever. But we do know now that Magnus Hanso is not Alvar, as was speculated, but rather an ancestor. We know that he was associated with the Black Rock.

Should the casual viewer have discerned that? I mean, in the 10 seconds that the Blast Door Map was visible. I have friends who think it is crazy that I spend so much time on the losttv board. They say a person shouldn't have to do that to watch the show. Yes, we here are not critical of those who spend hours screen-capping shots of the Blast Door Map and we use their findings to support our theories and beliefs.

My point is, can you honestly say that you figured out the entire story of the Black Rock?

I can confidently say yes I have an understanding of the Black Rock that goes even further than what has been openly discussed.
The one thing I see as important in drawing conclusions is figuring what is important and at what time is it important. And what is clearly not important at that time but is important later. To what degree are the stories entangled. Divide and conquer.
Where the Black Rock sit is not important at this time in figuring out what it was. Isolated we deduce Magnus was stranded on the island for quite some time. Long enough to have a child. Adam and Eve, the age of shackles found, all led to the fact it was a mining ship manned with slaves. It apparently was his son Alvar who found a way off the island.
Where the ship rests now is not important to this story but likely important in another story. As it sits it signifies uselessness. They obviously felt it served no purpose what so ever in helping them get off the island. Same as the "others" lack of concern in giving Michael a boat. Same as the "others" lack of interest in taking Desmond's boat. Obviously no one on this island sees a boat as any type of asset.

[see you in the next life]

I suppose the only thing left to do then is to sit back and wait to see if TPTB feel the need to confirm that your understanding of the Black Rock is the understanding that all of us should also understand because, until TPTB do so, it remains speculation and not canon. Trust me, if your supposition turns out to be fact as presented on the show, I will seek you out and commend you for your interpretive skills. I only hope that if information presented in the Lost Experience comes into play on the show (and in my opinion it already has) and thus, becomes canon, that it will be met with the same degree of acceptance.

[RichardR]

I suppose the only thing left to do then is to sit back and wait to see if TPTB feel the need to confirm that your understanding of the Black Rock is the understanding that all of us should also understand because, until TPTB do so, it remains speculation and not canon. Trust me, if your supposition turns out to be fact as presented on the show, I will seek you out and commend you for your interpretive skills. I only hope that if information presented in the Lost Experience comes into play on the show (and in my opinion it already has) and thus, becomes canon, that it will be met with the same degree of acceptance.

Fair enough.

[myhappycakeoven]

In short, the point of this thread is:

A: People who don't wish to play the game should still be able to use the highly valuable information it produces.

B: Spoiler-phobes have their right to live in the closet until October.

As always, spoiler-phobes win. Oh well.

[lacenaire]

Well, I just read this thread, and wow, I am way beyond flattered.
I am sorry if I sounded too curt, seeyouinthenextlife and folks,
but this is a kind of ideological thing for me, it's not personal against you
or any of the people following the WM.

Besides the issues of the reliability of the information and its relevance
I find it so difficult to interpret the information because there seems
to be so little context and it is so randomly scattered, I just can't work
that way, I need some order when I look at things and for me there's
just too much chaos in the WM. Too many parallel websites, videos, pics, memos and stuff. It's just too much and I feel that the effort necessary to put order into the chaos wouldn't pay off for me. I prefer going back to old episodes, look at screencaps and revise things that I might have overlooked from the episodes.

It's just a personal choice, please don't interpret anything beyond that.
I respect that you choose to play ABC's game, but I don't like the idea behind the game (commercialism), nor its rules nor how the game is being played out using/mimicking the worst tactics of the internet culture.


If you honestly think that it would be interesting to have some of the reticent theorists involved in the WM, I honestly think that many of you shouldn't pay so much attention to it, as I mentioned to Pandora before, and now to you, you are being missed in the GD and TS forums. That's why I opened a thread for people to suggest alternatives to the web game. Not to attack you, but to genuinely offer alternatives that would help us non-mazers relax and "stay in shape" for season 3. Hope you understand my position.

Namasté. :)



EDit:
PS. If it is any good I can help all of you to find tie-ins between the show and the WM.
That is, if you see something that you believe might have been on the show you can suggest the possible connection and where you think it might have appeared and I will look for it too. I would suggest opening a thread for visual and script tie-ins, just to serve as evidence that us non-mazers can actually check to see how wrong we are in not paying attention to the WM. ;)

[see you in the next life]

thanks lace............

[drabauer]

Hey, just want to say thank SYITNL for keeping the faith. I agree with you but, as others have said ad nauseum, will continue to respect board rules about separation. I think it is foolish to draw an artificial line between the show and ancillary spin-offs: IMO blowing up a single image of the blast door and translating its Latin phrases is no different than going to a site featured in a commercial on the show and learning some more background.

For that matter, is there not a dichotomy between discussion on an internet message board yet choosing to ignore all sources on the internet pertaining to the topic under discussion?

That said, I completely sympathize with Lacenaire's distaste for the whole thing. I would like lace to say more about how the webmaze seems to exploit the worst aspects of internet culture. I certainly am not impressed by how it's unfolded so far, but without knowing where they intend to end up at the end of the summer, it's hard to judge.

[rvturnage]

I'm just glad to see you and Lacenaire posting down here...:Cheers:

[supermodel]

Nice to see you guys, I am afraid of GD so I always have to wait for y'all to drop in here.

originally posted by lacenaire:
I would suggest opening a thread for visual and script tie-ins, just to serve as evidence that us non-mazers can actually check to see how wrong we are in not paying attention to the WM. ;)

Good idea! Like the picture on the hatch wall that was seen in the recent psychological video? And the DHARMA acronym? Those who are curious can read it, and evaluate the, um, value of the ARG. Those who don't want to know can avoid it.

originally posted by drabauer:
I would like lace to say more about how the webmaze seems to exploit the worst aspects of internet culture. I certainly am not impressed by how it's unfolded so far, but without knowing where they intend to end up at the end of the summer, it's hard to judge.

Just because we're playing the ARG doesn't mean we don't agree that the game has its faults. See the complaints (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21856) and venting thread. I'm not only the founder of the thread, I'm a client, too!

However, I am leery about getting into too much discussion. The relationship between webmaze and GD has been rocky to say the least, and characterized by defensiveness on both sides. IMO things have been going much better in the last few months, we've reached a sort of detente, (some of the mazers are even enjoying posting in GD, which we all know is huge progress) and I worry that a discussion about the faults of the ARG could upset the very delicate balance.

Not that I am against such a discussion in concept. Criticism and insight by interested parties such as yourselves, who have taken the time to look around and get a feel for what's going on, are always welcome. But I would hate to see certain other uninformed posters turn it into open season on those deluded webmazers. Popping in to T&S and criticizing someone's theory without bothering to read the thread is unspeakably rude. Popping in to Spinoffs to criticize the ARG without at least a cursory knowlede is equally disrespectful.

And lace, if you're interested in "staying in shape," but aren't interested in the official ARG, there are a couple of good places in the Spin-Offs subforum, created by some of our very own posters. Admittedly fanmade and unofficial, so no need to engage in thorny discussions of how it all relates, but also a ton of fun and a great workout for your research and critical thinking skills. Check out the World of Vincent_Madison (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12627). There's not a person in the subforum who won't agree that they've learned a ton from old VM! I know 700+ pages is a lot to catch up on, but fear not! Vincent is also a bit dissatisfied with the ARG and plans to launch a new mystery later this summer, you can get in from the start. You might also visit SanityAgainstChaos' "Lost Challenges (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11801)" thread for some puzzles that do not require a long-term commitment, as do the ARG and VM. Each puzzle is self contained so new people can jump in at any time.

[Lawboy]

With everything that TPTB have thrown out at us, there is no way that they can fully cover all the backstory to everything. The Webmaze gives TPTB to do that, to add depth and history without clogging down the show. SO I think this is fun, adds backstory, but still will not answer the biggie questions until TPTB are ready to reveal all to us.

Look at it this way. In the Wizard of Oz, we learned that Dorothy was travelling to see the great and powerful Oz. All events let to that as he was to be the saviour, to help her get home. It was not until near the end that we discovered he was a fraud. And that Dorothy had the power all along to get herself home, just didn't know it, or how to use it.

I hope Lost takes that arc......but this game tells us more about Munchkinland. About the green people. About the flying monkeys. About the other stuff to build a deeper story.

[PandoraX]

Nice to see you guys, I am afraid of GD so I always have to wait for y'all to drop in here.


See, this is one of the big problems, I think. As drA calls it, "ghettoezation"... and I agree. The hostile attitude makes people who are perfectly nice, and usually follow the rules, afraid to even poke their heads in the other forums for socializing. I started out as a T&S/GD kind of person, and to some degree, I'm more familiar with people there, but am now becoming familiar with people from both forums. I'll say that most of the hostility comes from a minority of mods only. I think we're all threatened by what we aren't familiar with, and that goes both ways.

[Penelope]

If you read the twin of this thread upstairs - it exemplifies why some of us do not go up there and also why we feel ghettoized. Lately I have just been going elsewhere because I refuse to let a few bad apples ruin my fun!! And for the most part, everyone has been quite nice!

[PandoraX]

Again, I'll just say that my distaste for the attitude comes only from 2 mods in particular (one of whom I do consider a friend), and leave it at that. I see a number of other nonwebmazers and moderators have a negative attitude to the game, and I have no problems with that (and can understand where the feelings come from)... they're entitled to their opinion and I still like hanging out up there for other topics of show discussion. I just think it's sad that one valuable contributor from the webmaze forums left as a result of the bad vibes.

[Lawboy]

Lets just say some people take things WAY too seriously. It is all for entertainment. The show, the webmaze and all other tie ins. It is all about fun. I love the show, but it is not my compass for life, does not give me special meanings or anything. And I am afraid that this search for more meaning prevents some people from just having fun with it. Because maybe that would minimize their meaning, if it was just all about entertainment. Which it is.

[ebos]

i think one of the problems is that as this game goes on... we will be finding things... it could be one little tiny thing... and it may completely disprove someones entire theory on the other boards. i looked through those boards one day just out of curiosity and some of the theories there are so enormously in depth and complete that for something to just come along... jump in their face and go "HAHA YOU'RE WRONG!! GO TO THE BACK OF THE LINE DO NOT PASS GO DO NOT COLLECT $200!".... something like that would probably devastate them after all that research and hard work.

[aggiesean]

i think one of the problems is that as this game goes on... we will be finding things... it could be one little tiny thing... and it may completely disprove someones entire theory on the other boards. i looked through those boards one day just out of curiosity and some of the theories there are so enormously in depth and complete that for something to just come along... jump in their face and go "HAHA YOU'RE WRONG!! GO TO THE BACK OF THE LINE DO NOT PASS GO DO NOT COLLECT $200!".... something like that would probably devastate them after all that research and hard work.

But every theory runs this risk, does it not? It's possible to have a well-thought-out theory that relies on a crucial piece of information being correct. Everyone who posts a theory on the web runs this risk. But the show won't conform to every theory. It's bound to happen as the show goes on, even without WM material.

If the WM shows a theory to be false, it's not up to us to tell a theorist who doesn't read WM material to "correct" them. At the same time, a WM-friendly theorist should be allowed to alter their theories to reflect the new information.

:Cowdance:

[PandoraX]

I posted this list upstairs, and even it was met with friction and resentment:

Widmore Corp & Family (4 in show, large part of Bad Twin)
Paik (Sun's father in show, several instances in TLE)
The Hanso Foundation (not a big part of show, huge in webmaze)
DHARMA (bigger in show than in webmaze)
Alvar Hanso (not big in show, huge in webmaze)
Apollo Candy Bars (not big in either show or webmaze, but mentioned briefly in both)
Oceanic Airlines (obviously integral to show, small mentions in Bad Twin)
Bad Twin (mentioned in passing only on show, unknown significance to overall TLE)
Valenzetti (mentioned only on blast door map on show, larger part in TLE)
The Black Rock (mentioned in show and TLE about equally so far)
Magnus Hanso (only seen on blast door map on show, a little more detailed in TLE)
Dr. Marvin Candle (big part of show, brief appearance in TLE only)
Cindy (flight attendant on show, very brief appearance in Bad Twin)
Mr Cluck's Chicken (Hurley's employment on show, *very* brief mention in Bad Twin & webmaze--more of a shoutout)
Smoke Monster (big part of show, possible brief descriptive mention in TLE)
Electromagnetism (very big part of show, a lot of mentions in TLE)
Tattooed Shark (brief appearance on show, a few appearances in TLE)
The Sickness (big part of both show and TLE)
Africa (Nigeria on show, large part of TLE)
Australia and/or Pacific Island involvement (important to show, brief mentions in Bad Twin & TLE)

...when it didn't have anything spoilerish about it, and didn't make any mention of details as to where they appear, how, or include elements of the story that only appear in the webmaze. I'm curious how that makes any sense at all if they're asking us to be mind readers about what information is allowable outside of tags and what isn't.

[aggiesean]

...when it didn't have anything spoilerish about it, and didn't make any mention of details as to where they appear, how, or include elements of the story that only appear in the webmaze. I'm curious how that makes any sense at all if they're asking us to be mind readers about what information is allowable outside of tags and what isn't.
Well, you're preaching to the choir here, but I can try to play Devil's Advocate here (....hehe, preaching to the choir before I leave for Mass :D ):

The way I see it, pure television show viewers are willing to see the ARG exists (I read dr bauer's comments on "do we have to even spoiler-tag "TLE""), but would rather know nothing about what is contained therein. Had you posted that list anywhere else in the forums (except here), I would probably agree with their stance simply because it does say some portions that are included, which some don't wish to see.

Purists kind of remind me of me in a sense. I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I must eat meals in a specific order, specific type of meals, I must push stoplight buttons 15 times before I cross, stepping around grates ruins my day, etc., etc. Don't tell me not to do these things, because I "know" they need to be done. In the same sense, a purist wants to discuss and know what is only on the show. I won't step over the line and make everyone else follow along with my OCD, but I refuse to let people step on what I believe to be right and necessary. And there are enough purists on this board that we need to consider what their wishes are in this regard.

That being said, of course:
a) You posted in a thread that is meant to discuss the role of The Lost Experience and its stance on these forums. In that context, it belonged there.
b) The complaints I saw in there were from moderators, and between new people posting WM info accidentally, or spoilers accidentally, or trolls on this board (wasn't there an incident a couple of months ago with a troll posting a huge spoiler all around?), they should be willing to view such "spoilerish" information because it's part of their duties here to remove it when necessary.

I may have more later, but church calls.

:Cowdance:

[PandoraX]

Had you posted that list anywhere else in the forums (except here), I would probably agree with their stance simply because it does say some portions that are included, which some don't wish to see.

a) You posted in a thread that is meant to discuss the role of The Lost Experience and its stance on these forums. In that context, it belonged there.

sean, I think that pretty much is a very good summary right there, and I've little to add to it. Had it been part of a T&S thread which had no mention of "webmaze" in the title, I most definitely would have spoiler tagged it. The interpretation of it is contextual.

[aggiesean]

Since we're having our own discussion over here, I figured I'd copy over the comment by Suil Laith, the "High Priestess" of the board, from the GD thread for those of you "avoiding" that one. :D


Until and unless it is established that webmaze has anything to do materially with the show-- and believe me, we've been "had" by TPTB before --- we can't know whether this stuff is spoilerish.

Or not.

Hence --- the origin of a spoiler should be so designated.

I am going to amend the Posting Guidelines -- this assumes people actually read them, btw --- to specify this.

When Season 3 opens, I bet we get our answer as to what, if anything, webmaze stuff has to do with the actual Show.

I'm with the camp that says this is just a ploy by ABC to keep viewers interested. Frankly, I don't mind. If folks are having fun, go for it. If material information comes out -- well then. Entertainment has been racheted up a whole new level.


:Cowdance:

[rottenralf]

Since we're having our own discussion over here, I figured I'd copy over the comment by Suil Laith, the "High Priestess" of the board, from the GD thread for those of you "avoiding" that one. :D



:Cowdance:

Deleted because I am no longer involved in this discussion

[see you in the next life]

Rottenralf....................you're preaching to the choir, brother. But let me attempt to modify your statement to make it more accurate....In point of fact, there is primarily 1 person over there who wants to make it a purist discussion, and by purist I mean only what he thinks should be talked about in General Discussion.

He ripped Pan X for not tagging the comparison of things that have crossed over from show to Experience........but when you do tag something, he refuses to read it...and that negates our ability to make the comparison we are using to try to justify our argument. It's a bleeding Catch-22 if ever I've seen one.....and if you do make a point, hey, just ignore it and don't respond.....you get the one-sided argument you need to defeat another persons logic.

I wanted to stay in there and continue to fight.....but a person gets so completely worn down after awhile.

It's funny....if you skim through the entire 90 pages and read only NeillT006'scomments, he was the one truly neutral person who made complete and total sense throughout the thread, i.e. "use spoiler tags" for Lost Experience material (same as you would for spoilers) as a simple courtesy.....but oh, no.....a certain someone can't stand the thought of the information even being available in the GD area.

So, how was it resolved. The rule is the rule. Only new addition calls for a theory, if driven by Experience information, to be labelled WMT in the title.....and one other little caviat.......the head mod has final discretion regarding whether it belongs in their forum or not. Oh well, best to stay out of GD....like you said.

[PandoraX]

Yeah, exactly, syitnl, you summed up a lot of what my issue was with it, also. Basically, I doubt WMT tagged in the title will be of little justification... what I got out of all this is that they do not want to even get an inkling that web material exists... the ultimate ostrich in the sand approach. So even if the thread starts out as having nothing to do with WMT but drifts in that direction (still with tagging), I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that it will end up in the Webmaze T&S. The idea is out of sight, out of mind. But I'm finding it pretty pointless to debate the split hair points now... even having started out as a GD person, I'm pretty much done with that forum, at least for the summer. I feel like I'd even rather talk about non-webmaze LOST material down here.

[LPU]

So are you guys done with GD for good? It'd be a damned shame to see the board splinter like that.

[rvturnage]

So are you guys done with GD for good? It'd be a damned shame to see the board splinter like that.
Nah, Pan will be back up in GD sooner or later...she likes aggrivating the bejeezus out people to much to stay down here all the time. :)

rvt

[see you in the next life]

I know this is going to sound snarkey............and so I apologize in advance.....but, while I may not be done with GD....and I am done with Homer.

The fact is, although I was IMHO unfairly lumped with him as being intractible (by rimkick, of the 26 posts), I am not. I do think he is. He as much as said so. He has a general disdain for mazers and the maze. I tried to get him to discuss a point I was trying to make and he continued to just "shine it on" as though I wasn't talking to him.

As for the so-called agreement that has been struck, it states that in the final analysis it is left to the discretion of the mod as to whether it stays or not. So, guess who is a mod in the GD area?

The sad thing is............I love the GD area. I really like it the day after a new episode.

[PandoraX]

So are you guys done with GD for good? It'd be a damned shame to see the board splinter like that.

LOL, while it's true I do like to aggravate people, and I would never back down from a good debate... I think the issue isn't so much I have a grudge against anyone... I have lots of love for folks up there, even ones I disagree with. And certain mods, like LIW, did I feel try to be very proactive in trying to keep level headed and resolve issues (may not have seemed like it from the short forum posts alone, but I am talking behind the scenes)... not that I can say this for all of them. But again, for me it's a practical matter. I just don't see much point in posting about anything during the summer that doesn't eventually tie back into extra-television related material... I'm not just talking about the ARG alone, but also about interviews and Comic-Con this summer, which I may go to. I might feel differently in Sept. Just for now I feel like people have their minds made up, and it's really not up to me to change them... and I don't like posting in an area where I feel like I have to walk on eggshells with every post.

Besides, rvt, it is apparent I can aggravate you down here just as well. :D

[LPU]

Well I guess I'll just have to mosey down here periodically and say howdy to you dirty WM'ers!

[see you in the next life]

yeah LPU.................it's fun down here in the ole Ghetto!

[LPU]

Project. Another word for experiment. You poor, neglected souls!

[Penelope]

Fortunately I'm a moderator of two areas. I'm going to be shifting "What I Think... into the TV Show T&S forum. Seems like a whacked solution to me, but I am determined to have an area for discussion about a TV show on a board set up to discuss that TV show. You can be sure anything tagged WMT will create a sonic boom as it flies out of there.

um, so I am confused - now even spoiler tagged mazing theories are not allowed in the forums above? I thought they were? Mazing friends, enlighten me before I say goodbye to the upstairs world for good as some of you already have...

[Jeannie]

I *think* Homer didn't get his way, so he's using the "head mod makes the final decision" rule to say that in "What I think" a mention of the webmaze will send you flying.

Slightly sour grapes, and kind of funny since he is basically setting What I think up to be just what Ralf suggested and he didn't want to hear about... a purist forum.

But everywhere else, spoiler-tagged things are okay, if I understand correctly. Unless it's a theory largely based on and discussing webmaze stuff and that goes in the webmaze T&S.

I'm sure lab or truff will correct me if I got that wrong. ;)

[Penelope]

Well that's a shame IMHO because that just turns me off like some others in this thread to post my theories upstairs. Maybe because I am a mazer my theories aren't welcome. Well I'll just post them down here for you all to read :D

[PandoraX]

Exactly, Jeannie. In the end, main written rules standing or not, it comes down to what individual mods think should be allowed in their prospective forums, and the inconsistancy issue rears its ugly head again. I'm not really sure what started this one mod's personal crusade against all things webmazish? If you don't like the stuff fine, but enforce the rules and make people tag their statements, and if they don't, then give them a warning; if they don't heed the warning, boot them out. I don't understand how that is so much harder than enforcing the spoiler rules for other spoilers.

[Jeannie]

Yes, and Central Scrutinizer has a good point too. Not likely anyone who posts here in this forum, since it would be too obvious, but someone is going to lurk and read and decide to create a new theory using webmaze stuff but pretending it didn't come from here. You know saying, "It was obvious from the show." And really how do you prove they were reading here if they don't post here? You can't.

I know the admins were trying to keep everyone happy, and I understand what a tough job they have. But you do need consistent rules applied everywhere, in my humble opinion.

I suspect we have not seen the end of this "debate" by a long-shot, but in the meantime I'll just hang out down here where it's safe. :)

[Penelope]

I suspect we have not seen the end of this "debate" by a long-shot, but in the meantime I'll just hang out down here where it's safe. :)

:yeah:

[see you in the next life]

Homer is the God of All He Surveys. Why not just start a "This Meets Homer's Approval Forum" and let him moderate it?

[supermodel]

Originally Posted by Locke Push-Ups
So are you guys done with GD for good? It'd be a damned shame to see the board splinter like that.


Newsflash: it was already splintered, has been for a long time. Things were a little friendlier in the past couple of months, and a few mazers began to feel comfortable upstairs, but most of us never go upstairs. Hell, our own mod has repeatedly advised us against it.

You're right, it is a damn shame, we have some incredibly sharp posters here and IMO the community is one of the friendliest, polite and most welcoming to newcomers I've seen on ANY of the forums.

[LPU]

Well, color me dumb because I had no idea it was like this. I hope that you don't mind a little GD cross-pollination down here, though. I don't have the time (or maybe it's the patience) to devote to the WM that you all do, but I do stop in for my fix from time to time and your time and energies are appreciated.

[supermodel]

Not dumb, you just didn't know! But yeah, this has been simmering for a long time and getting progressively worse.

Personally, I think it is great that some of you guys have been dropping in here for updates. That's why we keep editing the first post of every thread and truff's travel guide. Well, that's not the only reason, it helps us dedicated mazers as well. We sometimes fall behind too!

[PandoraX]

LPU, I think you'll find that people are generally very friendly down here, whether you are a hardcore webmazer, or have never heard of any of the characters. I am a cynical one myself, but I say it's a refreshing change not to have to get outshouted by everyone else... and rather feel like we're working together towards some answers to things we can admit we don't know the answers to. I'll be honest, the feeling I get in the other forums... and this is coming from someone who was always in GD prior to this... was that "I'm more right than you, and I'll prove it". It gets a little old after a while.

If you are feeling lost, feel free to stop by the help desk. The Webmaze T&S has some good threads which you can explore that are more "general" too, not just clue oriented. If you feel like you don't know who a character is, feel free to ask.

[Penelope]

Well, color me dumb because I had no idea it was like this. I hope that you don't mind a little GD cross-pollination down here, though. I don't have the time (or maybe it's the patience) to devote to the WM that you all do, but I do stop in for my fix from time to time and your time and energies are appreciated.

LPU, you know me from other parts of this board so I know you are well aware that I am the friendly sort. :D Contrary to what some may think elsewhere on this board we are a fun and welcoming group, as Super & Pan have posted. We have welcomed and will continue to welcome anyone here with open arms!! :Cheers:

But sadly, some of us have already left the forum altogether and others are declining to post upstairs due to the ghettoization of the webmaze.

[LPU]

Thanks guys. I've followed Truff's updates on a fairly regular basis so I think I'm up to speed. He's done an amazing job! I won't hesitate to tap one of you on the shoulder if I get lost, however. You guys are GD's loss, that's for sure. I still hope that some legitimate compromise may be worked out over he Summer. Hope to see you all North of the DMZ when S3 starts!

[rottenralf]

Homer is the God of All He Surveys. Why not just start a "This Meets Homer's Approval Forum" and let him moderate it?


Deleted because I am no longer involved in this process

[John]

....we now have a purist forum and traffic will decide whether it is worth keeping. Sometimes your words come back around to bite you in the arse. Still they now have a place where their request to stay ignorant (not said in an unkind way) can be respected and finally us mazers can't be blamed for going in and ruining their experience.

Don't jump now. It's not decided, just as I mentioned in BBR. Your quest has not been realized, Ralf.

[LostInWilderness]

I'll just say that as of this moment, the guidelines are as they always were. Read them in the Welcome Forum, T&S, and Spin-offs. Until an admin changes those guidelines, they are the canon on the board. You'll notice they haven't changed since the first webmaze began. I have every confidence they won't change at all since they are simply the best, most inclusive, guidelines we can come up with regarding the webgame. If any moderator acts outside those guidelines as posted, please PM an admin, and we'll check on it.

[LostInWilderness]

For example, if we learn the entire history of the Black Rock, and if that is never completely explored on the show itself, wouldn't you think that those who are not participating in the ARG would at least like to know. I find it amazing that, at this moment, we in the ARG know what the Dharma acronym stands for.....and the remainder of the board does not. Granted, that will probably be revealed in due time on the show.....but there are plenty of things that might not.........Adam & Eve, Black Rock, and the list goes on and on.
You may well be right, and God help TPTB if you are. If playing the webgame means you have more insight into the show than the 15 million viewers who don't play, 15 million viewers will evaporate, just like 8 million did last season. TPTB have placed themselves under a sword of Damecles, and they risk alienating everybody but the gamers. They sorely miscalculated last season, and reaped the whirlwind. Let's hope they haven't done the same with the webgame, or there will never be a fourth season.

[LostInWilderness]

Just noticed this is locked. Unlocking.

[Suil Liath]

I've said this before -- several times-- and I'll say it again. The nature of entertainment is changing. And TPTB lie like rugs. If they say it isn't necessary to play the game, as it were, they might very well be lying.

For now --- and only for now til things gel -- "canon" vs the "maze" should be kept in two separate bowls til it says to mix them together. For the most part.

This does not mean that the folks who are involved in the "maze" are any less valid than the Classicists. We just don't know who things will play out -- and probably won't know til Season 3 opens. for all we know, webmaze might turn out to be far more critical than just a game.

LiW, as the head mod in T&S, is free to establish the finer points of the guidelines in his forum. Homer, is likewise free to do the same in Guys and What I think is going in.

As for GD -- that is more open territory and we're still working on the temporary boundaries. Temporary because things mutate as the nature of the "experience" evolves. GD is for general discussion of the show. Like this thread. It just makes it more difficult for open dialogue if people have no idea what you're talking about because they don't play the "game", however. It might make for rather stilted or one sided conversation.

I'm sure this will all sort itself out as we go along. And it will be interesting to see how germaine all the "webmaze" info is to the tv show itself.

[NeillT006]

Deleted because I am no longer involved in this process

Now, that was an incredibly brave act.

N.

[see you in the next life]

"Mod Edit: I am moving this thread from the webmaze forum to General Discussion so that the membership as a whole can see just what morons the mazers regard the rest of us who don't participate in the game.

Be warned that there are webmaze elements which you might not want to see openly displayed in this thread."


I would like to know which Mod it was who made the above edit. How dare you speak for me. I would like to know who felt it necessary to imply that I was asserting that those not participating in the game were morons. This, in my opinion, is the exact form of editorializing that mods should stay out of. You get to make your little comment and then sticky the thread so that it remains there for all to see, as though you somehow are the authority and get the last word on it.

Moderate - not excessive or extreme. Temperate. One who holds moderate views or opinions.

I couldn't care less whether you play the game or not. What I object to is any attempt to suppress conversation about the game in any forum, so long as it is spoiler tagged appropriately so that those who choose not to be exposed to it don't have to be. So far as I know, not ONE person was required to open the thread that Drabauer started in general discussion..........and brother, let me tell you, there is a considerable amount of IRONY in that fact that someone chose to move a thread of this nature from spin-offs back to General Discussion.

It is simply crass. Plain and simple. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

[see you in the next life]

Please take the time to have a look at the "Polarization between GD, T & S and ARG" thread which I started a few days ago. You WON'T FIND IT HERE IN THIS FORUM.......IT HAS BEEN MOVED TO GD AND STICKIED. LOOK AT POST #1 FOR AN EXPLANATION OF WHY IT WAS MOVED. PLEASE THEN CHECK POST 94 OF THE THREAD, WHICH I JUST MADE. IF I AM OVERREACTING PLEASE FEEL FREE TO LET ME KNOW.


MOD----PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD ONCE EVERYONE HAS HAD A CHANCE TO SEE IT.

[Jeannie]

Wow. I saw the thread had been moved there, but I didn't open it.

Editing to remove further comments, which were sent to an admin by PM.

[lostgal69]

I dont think your overreacting at all,SYITNL, it is a shame that the TBC has the power to write thing's like that and get away with it, yet again., I dont recall seeing one post that the webmazer's called anyone that didn't follow it a moron, that's for sure.

[TheBigCat]

Listen up, mazers and gamers. Uncle BigCat is gonna school you all on some things. Don't worry about taking notes as there will be no test, this is strictly an FYI course.

Some people have been saying that I don't like the mazers, that, in the words of one member, I "just want to keep (you) segregated from the rest of the board". Nothing could be farther from the truth. Do not confuse my opinion of the webgame and spin-off boards with my opinion of you. If you are having fun figuring out all the little tidbits of info that TPTB are hiding in the ARG sites and sharing them with others, helping one another solve each puzzle then that's great. I'm proud to be a moderator on a board that has such intellegent dedicated people for members.

But a small, vocal faction have decided that the rest of the board is stupid for not being as eager for the information gleaned from the ARG as they are. Others have decided that the people who are doing the webmaze are somehow the elite of the board. When the ARG was initially anounced I expressed, unnecesarily harshly no doubt, a lack of confidence in the game, and the possibility that a bunch of people were going to show up and pose ARG related issues in the rest of the board, willy nilly as some people who are fond of not reading before posting are often wont to do. Gladly, my fears on these two subjects have been proven unfounded. From all accounts the ARG is as exciting as promised, and the number of people starting threads in GD asking if anybody has any info on the latest ARG site has been very small.

I also mentioned that I could see a certain cliquishness, an "us vs. them" attitude developing. I was told that I was imagining it, that there was no such thing in this forum. Unfortunately, I was right. Damn me for being a student of human nature. That cliquishness is very real, and it's gotten out of hand. It has reached the ears of the owner of the board, and as I predicted, one member so far has been punished for the infractions of consistently devisive posting and repeatedly calling out the staff. So far it's only a minor punishment.

There are others whose heads could be on the same block. Since I don't want to see this happen I'm gonna provide some helpful hints for all of you. For starters, Lab5 and Truffula are not "your" moderators. They are only the staff members with the primary responsibility for this forum. All of the staff of this board are equally "your" moderators, so don't go getting the idea that all you need to do is listen to Lab and Truff and damn all what any other moderators say.

Next issue is that nobody, not a one of you is any better or any worse than any other member of this board. All of you are free to come to this board and post in this or any other forum. If you chose to just post here in the ARG forum, or if you decide to post in the other areas of the board, or whatever you decide, that is fine. Respect for those who post in other areas is expected of all. But comments like "those guys over in the forum are..." are only going to lead to trouble. Trust me one this one. When I was given primary responsibility for the shipper forum it was a mess. One of the first things I had to do was go in and clear out several threads derogatory of shippers that were a relic of Season 1 when there were people who only posted in their specific forum, rarely ventured into others, and when they did it was often something questioning the validity of that forum. There were accusations galore that people who only focused on one aspect of the show somehow missing out on the entire picture. There was no "Guys, ..." and "What I Think..." forums back then, just GD, T&S, Shippers and Lostaways. The hardcore theorists and the dedicated shippers were the most subject to ridicule. That should tell you why I got a bit bent out of shape when the Algo/Borky thread showed up in Shippers.

So don't go telling me that there's no "us and them" attitude here. I know better than that. It's something that is always going to develop, and anyone who cherishes harmony should immediately take a stand against anyone making any devisive statements. For example, I am hearing noises that mazers are not welcomed in the other areas of the board. I see a lot of people with ARG tags in their signatures posting in other areas and I have never seen them treated any differently than anybody else. So if somebody tells you that, you tell them to get a life and quit causing trouble.

Finally, the last thing anyone wants to do is to get the attention of the board owner. If she has to take action on anything you do odds are you aren't going to like the result. If you have any issue with the decision of any moderator's action or decision feel free to PM an administrator. But do not (can I say that loudly enough? Let me try again....) [b]Do Not call out any moderator in open forum. Politely questioning them once regarding a decision or action is fine. Engaging them in debate, badgering them trying to get them to do things your way, that loses. But the Constitution of the United States is not in force here. There is no First Amendment. You do not have the right to say anything you darned well please. Also, there is no Third Amendment, but that's not really at issue since we have no soldiers which we would be quartering in private homes anyway.

Thank you.

Have a nice day.

Class dismissed.

[Skate]

I don't think she was calling anyone a moron, she was just stating that a lot of people think that any facts or information gained from the lost experience isn't really real because it was not gained through the tv programme. A lot of my friends watch Lost relgiously but I'm the only one who also plays the lost experience game because I want to know as much about Lost as I can (it's so damn addictive :p) but a lot of people think that the information I now know because of the Lost experience game isn't really true because it didn't come from the programme, I certainly don't think any less of them for thinking that, but I think there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding the connection of the game and the tv programme, which is what SYITNL was also saying I think, that the game is just as "real" as the tv programme and for those who DO want more information about the story behind things that occasionally are featured in the tv programme, the game offers that. :)

I think it was a little cruel of the mod who edited that post to put words in the original poster's mouth..

And I am not saying that the people who play the game are in any way better than those who don't, of course not, that would be insane - I'm only agreeing that a lot of people seem to be confused about just how "real" the game is in comparison to the tv programme. :)

[see you in the next life]

No.

The mod asserted that we (webmazers) were referring to those not playing the game as morons.

I never said that. I don't think any of us did. I believe Homer said (in the thread that Drabauer started) that we thought non-game participants were morons but he was putting words in our mouths. Not what we said.

[clayseason1]

Mod Edit: I am moving this thread from the webmaze forum to General Discussion so that the membership as a whole can see just what morons the mazers regard the rest of us who don't participate in the game.
I followed this thread's conversation and I didn't come away with the impression that the "mazers" regarded everyone else as morons. I came away with the impression that the "mazers" didn't feel like a part of the community as a whole......and that is sad.

Hopefully each of us bring something to the community to enrich everyone else's experience on the board. If everyone would just take the time to treat everyone else the way they wanted to be treated, we could avoid these conversations which only lead to hurt feelings and discord.

[PandoraX]

Wow, all I have to say that editing in that remark and then closing the thread so that you could have the "last word" was an incredibly childish act, TBC.

To tell the truth, I understand the frustration that may have prompted this mod to put it in GD... that this was a thread perhaps was isolating one section of the population from participating, because it was in a less inclusive forum. But I think I understand syitnl's frustration at starting it downstairs also--that half the people who should have been involved in the debate felt too intimidated to poke their heads upstairs, because they felt like GD was the forum that was more exclusive nowadays. I'm not saying that this should necessarily be right, because a thread like that could seem like 'conspiring against' the rest; I personally think that the two threads should be merged.

But editing in an offensive remark which was purely editorialized as being "what we all feel" and then stickying it in an attempt to "show someone off at the stockades" was just a petulent, vindictive, and frankly, sad, thing to see. I'm all for it all being out in the open.

[John]

Closing. Things are out of perspective.

[see you in the next life]

Now the thread in GD has been closed.............but imagine this,


the offensive mod editorial (post #1) remains.


I won't be here too much longer if this kind of bullying, editorializing, and vindictiveness is allowed to go unchecked.

[lostgal69]

I am thinking a lot of people are right there with you!! SYITNL !!

[Penelope]

:yeah:

[SageTemple]

Yeah, you know, I'd rather wade through a totally unmoderated mess than be subject to someone's random idea of what I should or shouldn't see.

This was a good board, and I may very well just go back to lurking, but after that commentary -- by a mod no less, I don't really see much point in contributing -- that makes 2 mods actually, 'cause Homer was completely bent in that other thread.

Oh well, whatever --the nice thing about the ARG is that it's spawing new boards, that are embracing both aspects instead of 5 gagillion posts bitching about it.

So, c'est la vie, seeya

[drabauer]

I have reopened this thread and moved it to Webmaze T&S, as it largely duplicates the existing thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22250).

carry on!

[Penelope]

thank you DrA!

[ebos]

how about we just keep the forums and ideas separate entirely. if you live in the arg then stay there and if you're purely for the show, stay there. if you want both then learn to censor yourself for the sake of not pissing people off.

why push something in a forum where people dont want to hear it.

let the show decide who is right and wrong in 3 months

this bickering over nothing needs to end... its just pathetic

[VeeAyetheCPA]

carry on!

Okay, if you say so!
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_47.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_105.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/100.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/100.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/100.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_5_137.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_15_29.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_5_131.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_28_5.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_13_16v.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_100.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_106.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_120.gifhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/101.gif

[drabauer]

The "message" is gone and the thread has been moved here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22088). Locking now.

[rimkick]

Thank you DrA. Let's get it all out in the open for discussion. This is supposed to be a way to generate discussion and open communication. Whomever added the comments and closed this should be chastised. IMHO. I don't agree with SYINL most of the time and I like Homer, but this has been festering for over a week and it has to stop. The only way to so so is to get it totally out in the open and talk about it.

[LAN]

TBC, first of all I respect the fact that you have come out and expressed your position on this ridiculous discussion. I know it was inevitable that we would need to find a middle ground between the purists and the "mazers" as far as posting in GD, but I think EVERYONE thinks the degeneration here has gotten out of hand. Given that, I want to respond to your thoughts, to hopefully explain where some of us are coming from, becuz I think it is not clear when it is broken up in 30 threads. I am NOT trying to fuel the fire, I am hoping for a civil discussion in the hopes of appeasing the board.

Listen up, mazers and gamers. Uncle BigCat is gonna school you all on some things. Don't worry about taking notes as there will be no test, this is strictly an FYI course.

Some people have been saying that I don't like the mazers, that, in the words of one member, I "just want to keep (you) segregated from the rest of the board". My take on this, is that it is not so much you, but Homer Noodleman who wants this, and he has explained his reasons. Which I think are TOTALLY VALID. I think it's the WAY in which he decides to express himself that is completely disrespectful to us. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Do not confuse my opinion of the webgame and spin-off boards with my opinion of you. If you are having fun figuring out all the little tidbits of info that TPTB are hiding in the ARG sites and sharing them with others, helping one another solve each puzzle then that's great. I'm proud to be a moderator on a board that has such intellegent dedicated people for members.

But a small, vocal faction have decided that the rest of the board is stupid for not being as eager for the information gleaned from the ARG as they are. If I am not mistaken, A moderator opened that thread so that people could have a choice, and discuss, instead of simply running with the opinion of 4 or 5 holier than though members of the board. Others have decided that the people who are doing the webmaze are somehow the elite of the board. Show me a thread where most of the posters dont think they are the smartest, funniest, elites of the board. I dont think the problem comes when from hubris, I think the problem comes from striking at others. When the ARG was initially anounced I expressed, unnecesarily harshly no doubt, a lack of confidence in the game, and the possibility that a bunch of people were going to show up and pose ARG related issues in the rest of the board, willy nilly as some people who are fond of not reading before posting are often wont to do. Gladly, my fears on these two subjects have been proven unfounded. This surprises me, I figured it happened all the time, but we all worked together to minimize the damage. From all accounts the ARG is as exciting as promised, and the number of people starting threads in GD asking if anybody has any info on the latest ARG site has been very small.

I also mentioned that I could see a certain cliquishness, an "us vs. them" attitude developing. I was told that I was imagining it, that there was no such thing in this forum. Imagining it? In my opinion you are the main person responsible for this. I am just being honest here, but I dont think people were adamantly one side or the other until you made your infamous post. Unfortunately, I was right. Damn me for being a student of human nature. That cliquishness is very real, and it's gotten out of hand. It has reached the ears of the owner of the board, and as I predicted, one member so far has been punished for the infractions of consistently devisive posting and repeatedly calling out the staff. So far it's only a minor punishment. Do you think caning is appropriate? (I kid)

There are others whose heads could be on the same block. Since I don't want to see this happen I'm gonna provide some helpful hints for all of you. For starters, Lab5 and Truffula are not "your" moderators. They are only the staff members with the primary responsibility for this forum. All of the staff of this board are equally "your" moderators, so don't go getting the idea that all you need to do is listen to Lab and Truff and damn all what any other moderators say. This baffles me. We love our Lab and Truff cuz that is who we see on a daily basis downstairs. But I think we as a group are VERY respectful of all of the moderators. We even respect the position you hold here, which is the main reason we were so pissed at your attitude. You may say it is "imagined" but I dont know if you are trying to fool us or yourself. It was real and it was pointed.

Next issue is that nobody, not a one of you is any better or any worse than any other member of this board. All of you are free to come to this board and post in this or any other forum. If you chose to just post here in the ARG forum, or if you decide to post in the other areas of the board, or whatever you decide, that is fine. Respect for those who post in other areas is expected of all. But comments like "those guys over in the forum are..." are only going to lead to trouble. Trust me one this one. When I was given primary responsibility for the shipper forum it was a mess. One of the first things I had to do was go in and clear out several threads derogatory of shippers that were a relic of Season 1 when there were people who only posted in their specific forum, rarely ventured into others, and when they did it was often something questioning the validity of that forum. There were accusations galore that people who only focused on one aspect of the show somehow missing out on the entire picture. There was no "Guys, ..." and "What I Think..." forums back then, just GD, T&S, Shippers and Lostaways. The hardcore theorists and the dedicated shippers were the most subject to ridicule. That should tell you why I got a bit bent out of shape when the Algo/Borky thread showed up in Shippers. Understandable. We hope you know that it was not intended as a slight against the shippers thread in general, in the same way that the Metallic/Minerals thread is not intended to disrespect the show Lost. It was all in fun, and not an insultory type of fun..... Then again, I didnt create that thread, but I think I know enough about those involved to speak on this.

So don't go telling me that there's no "us and them" attitude here. I know better than that. It's something that is always going to develop, and anyone who cherishes harmony should immediately take a stand against anyone making any devisive statements. Agree completely on this. As adults we need to differentiate between inevitable discussions on where to post what and sheer argument for arguments sake. For example, Homer Noodleman does not want to read any web-maze material in the general discussion threads. That is 100% valid. It is also valid for other people to disagree with this and discuss. During the course of this discussion things inevitably digressed into disrespectful comments and sheer idiocy, on both sides. For example, I am hearing noises that mazers are not welcomed in the other areas of the board. I see a lot of people with ARG tags in their signatures posting in other areas and I have never seen them treated any differently than anybody else. So if somebody tells you that, you tell them to get a life and quit causing trouble. Other than the Shippers thread, which I now understand better, I have never had a problem elsewhere

Finally, the last thing anyone wants to do is to get the attention of the board owner. If she has to take action on anything you do odds are you aren't going to like the result. If you have any issue with the decision of any moderator's action or decision feel free to PM an administrator. But do not (can I say that loudly enough? Let me try again....) [B]Do Not call out any moderator in open forum. Politely questioning them once regarding a decision or action is fine. Engaging them in debate, badgering them trying to get them to do things your way, that loses. But the Constitution of the United States is not in force here. There is no First Amendment. You do not have the right to say anything you darned well please. Also, there is no Third Amendment, but that's not really at issue since we have no soldiers which we would be quartering in private homes anyway. As long as the 21st amendment applies, I'm cool with the structure.

Thank you.

Have a nice day.

Class dismissed.

Hope you read this, thanks for your thoughts....let's fix it.
LAN

[see you in the next life]

"Agree completely on this. As adults we need to differentiate between inevitable discussions on where to post what and sheer argument for arguments sake. For example, Homer Noodleman does not want to read any web-maze material in the general discussion threads. That is 100% valid. It is also valid for other people to disagree with this and discuss. During the course of this discussion things inevitably digressed into disrespectful comments and sheer idiocy, on both sides."

I agree with this also and that was the point of the compromise. Use spoiler tags for spoilers and webmaze stuff if it is being discussed or posted in other forums (GD, T & S, etc.). I think Homer didn't want the stuff in other forums at all.

[Suil Liath]

Ok, the fact that people are trying to interpret what other people are saying is the problem in the first place. So. That said, I will lock this so we don't misinterpret ourselves into a corner.

Just for the record: webmaze may or may not be an integral part of this whole thing. It could have been the intention all along. It could be a way to maintain interest in a show with falling ratings. It might be the wave of the future for entertainment. It might have information that while interesting, has nothing to do with what we'll see in the show. Those of us who don't do the webmaze thing might be seriously grateful for those who DO if it turns out webmaze is the ANSWER and the show is just smoke and mirrors.

We'll know this eventually -- Season Three opens in October.

As for HOW this whole thing is being handled --- this is being addressed among the moderators as we speak so that more feathers won't be ruffled as we lumber towards resolution.

[John]

Suil and I sort of jumped in here at the same time, so in the interest of maintaining cohesiveness across the board, the thread is being locked temporarily. The heat between the two tribes is getting a little out of control, and many are up in arms. We need to put that fire out. It's in our best interest.

The administrative and moderation staff is working harder than ever to find a solution to the current problem. I want to personally state that a decision will be made that will be the best decision for the entire forum. In the mean time, please abide by the guidelines as they are stated.

There will be updates as we progress. We ask for your patience as we find our way through the new challenges that face us. Your opinions are valuable to us, but I ask that the opinions be directed to PMs rather than posts to the board.

Thanks for your understanding. I, or another moderator will provide an update soon.

Thanks,
TPTP

[see you in the next life]

COULD A MOD PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD, AT LEAST TEMPORARILY?

[Suil Liath]

Actually, rimkick, the best thing to do is retire to neutral corners. This whole thing has now landed on the desk of She Who Sits In The Corner Office (me). I want you all to know a few things.

1. I don't have a negative opinion of webmaze or the posters. They're probably smarter than I am.

2. I do not quarrel or chastise the mod staff in public.

3. This has ceased to be about webmaze or anything like that and has simply become a personality contest.

Hence, while I am waiting for further discussion privately with a couple of folks, let's leave this for now. I realize that people have things they want to say in this regard. Communications are breaking down left and right. Feelings are running high. All that stuff.

So, let me put it this way: these issues are being addressed.