Theories & Speculation - Webmaze Clues & Connection to the TV Show

[Penelope]

Okay Gang,

Some of you have read and/or participated in the recent discussion both in this forum and in GD regarding dissemination of webmaze information into theories and speculation about the show. As Dr. Amy's thread upstairs posited, it seems impossible for anyone actively following the webmaze to be able to contribute in some theories which may be influenced by clues we have learned from The Lost Experience.

Rose & Jeannie & I brought this idea to Lab & Truff and we have decided to start a webmaze theories thread here. What I'd like to do with this thread is something similiar to how Aggie maintains our OWA discussion. This first post will be continously updated and catologed with our ideas and links within the thread. Rose suggested for now we use this thread to explore any theories and ideas. Let's not limit ourselves to one narrow issue, because right now, we don't have to many 'discoveries' but I am sure that will change. If this takes off, Lab & Truff can always assist us in separating subthreads appropriately.

Here are some topics this thread could explore, as an example:

D.H.A.R.M.A as an acronym and discussion pertaining thereto
The Black Rock
Possible Character Connections to the Lost Experience - theories on how the Game may tie in;
The connection between the island and our clues thus far

eta: Please direct anyone you see upstairs posting theories that contain webmaze information here, whenever you see them. Thanks and enjoy!!

eta2: VM - I'm happy to have the doggie's seal of approval on this endeavor! :blinkie:

[Vincent_Madison]

Way to go Pen!!!!!

Our own T&S thread where we can talk about ANYTHING!!!!!!

This rules!!!!!!!

THANKS!!!!!!!

VM :)

[3-Putt]

This just does not look like a stable structure to me. ---

http://i5.tinypic.com/15chuec.jpg

...unless it was tethered on the other end ---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

But could you really move something like that ? I guess you could if you had the right kind of ship. Hmmm.

(You will find that those of us from the 'World of Vincent Madison' like to throw out wild ideas just 'cuz they are fun to research and we learn a pot full of stuff in the process...and that makes us happy as piglets. :) )

[PandoraX]

This is a great idea. I think it does work well as a thread instead of a separate forum, too, since everything is so integrated here. To tell the truth, I thought that this was what STORYLINE BEHIND THE CLUES was going to be about (seeing the big picture)... but that ended up being more a thread about timelines. As we see more and more crossover between sites (DJ Dan posting a link on his podcast to ROT or Compass, for instance), it gets confusing which thread to post to for larger themes.

That being said, my mind's devoid of actual theoretical substance right now. :D I shall visit again later...

[Penelope]

3Putt - are we speculating that this image is the Black Rock too? I know this was from a previous update.
On the island -- Danielle stated that there was a tower at the Black Rock.

I like your Space elevator idea better though....more to discuss there. ;)


While I am posting I'd like to throw this into the pot - D H A R M A = the D = Department. I posted this in Pan's thread which was in spoilers but it is locked now. Deparment for what corporation?? I think it would be facetious to assume its Hanso. We have other corporate ties:

1. Widmore
2. Paik Heavy Industries
3. The DeGroots -- they have to be working for someone, and maybe it is not Hanso.

ETA: 3Putt - your 'tethered at the other end' phrasing reminded me of that cable that Sayid found....sigh...I want to know what that was...

[rvturnage]

This just does not look like a stable structure to me. ---

<image removed for space>
...unless it was tethered on the other end ---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

But could you really move something like that ? I guess you could if you had the right kind of ship. Hmmm.

(You will find that those of us from the 'World of Vincent Madison' like to throw out wild ideas just 'cuz they are fun to research and we learn a pot full of stuff in the process...and that makes us happy as piglets. :) )

I think so, with the right size ship. While it does appear to be tall, it doesn't neccessarily appear too top heavy. The top seems to be rather narrow, which would make it easier to haul on a ship, I'd think...but I'm no engineer...or a sailor, for that matter.

ETA: Penelope...we're speculating about the ship that was discussed in the recording Rachel released...being discussed by Mittlewerk and a Paik representative.

[Vincent_Madison]

I think so, with the right size ship. While it does appear to be tall, it doesn't neccessarily appear too top heavy. The top seems to be rather narrow, which would make it easier to haul on a ship, I'd think...but I'm no engineer...or a sailor, for that matter.

ETA: Penelope...we're speculating about the ship that was discussed in the recording Rachel released...being discussed by Mittlewerk and a Paik representative.

As soon as I saw the picture I thought of the Space Elevator - before I even saw the link underneath.

Very weird but cool idea.

[supermodel]

Deparment for what corporation??

Well, first of all, I think it's not a corporation. According to the Orientation video it's some kind of academic research project founded by the deGroots and funded by the Hanso Foundation. Maybe "department" refers to a university department? Or to a sub-department of some larger deGroot enterprise?

Or, it could be part of Hanso. Maybe the way THF funded the project was by basically takign ownership for it and putting the deGroots ont heir payroll. Great way to assert control.

[MrSnappy]

[quote=Penelope]3Putt - are we speculating that this image is the Black Rock too? I know this was from a previous update.
On the island -- Danielle stated that there was a tower at the Black Rock.
quote]

How long does dynamite last? I can't imagine it would last from the original voyage. Did Danielle's team bring it there to store it? Just curious...

ETA: not that this question is related to your post really, Pen...the thought just crossed my mind when I read it...

[Lab]

To maintain continuity along the lines of Webmaze T&S going in Spin-off, we are moving this thread to Spin-off. As with some of the other new webmaze T&S type threads, it may still contain discussion related to The Lost Experience, but will be located in Spin-off, with other webmaze T&S to maintain uniformity and consistent policy.

[NeillT006]

This just does not look like a stable structure to me. ---

http://i5.tinypic.com/15chuec.jpg

...unless it was tethered on the other end ---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

But could you really move something like that ? I guess you could if you had the right kind of ship. Hmmm.

(You will find that those of us from the 'World of Vincent Madison' like to throw out wild ideas just 'cuz they are fun to research and we learn a pot full of stuff in the process...and that makes us happy as piglets. :) )

It looks like a space elevator.

N.

eta: of course it does. That is what the caption says.

Oh. That will teach me not to read.

It also made me think of two other things.

Clarkes Childhood's End (another Pacific tale)

The "ETHAN" project which I think had to do with high atmosphere tests involving ground based lasers.

N.

[truffula]

To continue....Ralf answered a question about the Black Rock that kinda put 2 and 2 together.
A question was posted by MrSnappy -

Can someone help me out? Just a quick question...if the black rock went to the island last century, how would the dynamite still be usable? Did Danielle's group bring it there for storage or something, I must be forgetting something...

And Ralf responded (partial quote) -

it was stored in a ship that has been sitting in a humid tropical setting for a century that by all rights at that point shouldn't of been anything more than a huge mound of moss and mold.

And that got me thinking. Well, made me want to put this here so that the great minds here can get more out of it than me ;)

The reason the Dynamite was still usable, and the reason why a ship in the middle of a tropical jungle isn't all mold and moss is because -
It was NOT there for a century.
Some sort of TIME TRAVEL is involved here.
It kinda explains why Mittelwerk was lookin into records at Allied Copenhagen. Before 1900 and after 2000....only problem is....he's not gonna get any hits there. He needs to go back more. Cause Rousseau saw the Black Rock before the year 2000.....hmmm...or did she?

Its late and I'm tired, so I hand this idea over to yal smart folks. :)

Peace,
Truff

[Penelope]

The reason the Dynamite was still usable, and the reason why a ship in the middle of a tropical jungle isn't all mold and moss is because -
It was NOT there for a century.
Some sort of TIME TRAVEL is involved here.

Yes this is my theory on the Black Rock too. Even before we learned the webmaze reveal about the Black Rock, the only answer to the ships location on the island and its condition, including the condition of the dynamite, was time travel/time warp.

What if Hanso is involved in some sort of business that allows them to profit in a different time? The Slave Trade historically was a huge profit maker. Hanso has been around awhile as a corporation----but just HOW long??

[aggiesean]

It kinda explains why Mittelwerk was lookin into records at Allied Copenhagen. Before 1900 and after 2000....only problem is....he's not gonna get any hits there. He needs to go back more. Cause Rousseau saw the Black Rock before the year 2000.....hmmm...or did she?

Unless she lied to Sa'id, then yes, she did. She told him in "Solitary" that she found the transmission tower by the Black Rock soon after her ship crashed 16 years 5 months prior to the 815 crash. In real-time, that would put her crash at April 1988. In time-travel time, possibly earlier than that.

:Cowdance:

[Jeannie]

What if Hanso is involved in some sort of business that allows them to profit in a different time? The Slave Trade historically was a huge profit maker. Hanso has been around awhile as a corporation----but just HOW long??

Interesting thought, Pen. If you can go back and make a profit in the past, it's going to help you today as well. But you have to watch playing around with the past, because it will affect your future.

Anyone here ever read the book Replay? It was a story of a guy who kept dying on a certain date at a certain time, then "coming to" in his past. He used knowledge of the future to amass a fortune in one life, to chase the girl of his dreams in another, etc. But nothing was ever the same as in his original life because every little thing you change in the past, changes something else, which changes something else... and on and on. The butterfly effect.

[/ramble]

[Penelope]

Interesting thought, Pen. If you can go back and make a profit in the past, it's going to help you today as well. But you have to watch playing around with the past, because it will affect your future.

Anyone here ever read the book Replay? It was a story of a guy who kept dying on a certain date at a certain time, then "coming to" in his past. He used knowledge of the future to amass a fortune in one life, to chase the girl of his dreams in another, etc. But nothing was ever the same as in his original life because every little thing you change in the past, changes something else, which changes something else... and on and on. The butterfly effect.

[/ramble]

I was thinking of the Butterfly Effect but yeah that movie sounds about the same. If time is being 'toyed with' by Hanso, IMHO, God Help Us.

[rvturnage]

Okay...I am SOOOO confused...why is this thread in Spin Offs instead of the the 2006 TLE ARG?

[Jeannie]

I was thinking of the Butterfly Effect but yeah that movie sounds about the same. If time is being 'toyed with' by Hanso, IMHO, God Help Us.

Oh yeah, God Help Us All.

In one of the guy's replays in the book, he (and a woman he met who was living through the same thing) decided to go public to try and get help. They were immediately grabbed by the government, who wanted to use their knowledge to the government's good. The problem of course, was that after the government changed one thing, our heroes could no longer tell them the future, because now it was changed. By the time the guy "died" again, the world was in the midst of a raging war, about ready for us all to destroy ourselves.

[Penelope]

Okay...I am SOOOO confused...why is this thread in Spin Offs instead of the the 2006 TLE ARG?

Because to be consistent with the Forum rules for thread locations, only discussion of the clues from the game I guess go in that other thread. That is what I took from Lab's move post last evening (above), and I apologize that I posted it in the wrong place.


ETA: So not to double post, Pan just made this excellent connection here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=760884&postcount=396). Which brings me back to my time travel theory -- maybe they are harvesting organs they have procured in the past?? Illegal indeed!!

[rvturnage]

Because to be consistent with the Forum rules for thread locations, only discussion of the clues from the game I guess go in that other thread. That is what I took from Lab's move post last evening (above), and I apologize that I posted it in the wrong place.


ETA: So not to double post, Pan just made this excellent connection here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=760884&postcount=396). Which brings me back to my time travel theory -- maybe they are harvesting organs they have procured in the past?? Illegal indeed!!

Oh...I thought "spinoffs" was the secton of the wembaze forum for non-TLE (re: fan site) stuff...

As for timet travel...I just can't get behind that yet. I'll have to see something a lot more openly pointing to travel to make me second guess TPTB saying that time travel wasn't involved.

rvt

[sayidsalot]

Arthyr C Clarke - Childhoods End - I have been thinking about this book (which I have read several times in my life since I was 14 or so) .

This book has kids who develop the abilities of mind powers... they do dreamwork at first, really cool...

I DO wonder if the writers have read this, but I IS one of the best SCI-FI books EVER so probably yes...

Anyway, worth a read for you folks who have not read it.

Carmen

[jlmlostarg]

Ok, we moved the discussion of whether or not the IM log found at lycgy.com means that RB=P to this forum. So let's discuss it...

The IMs are dated from March (even though the dates are a bit muffed, the first one shows session opened Mar.1 and closed Mar. 6, etc which could be important or could just be a typo). This could imply a couple of things (as far as I can tell): 1. That OpenersHep IS Persephone and her name is Rachel B.(lake).
2. That O is NOT P but her real name IS RB.
3. That O IS P and she lied about her name being RB.
4. That O is NOT P AND she lied about her name (thereby adding a third person to the equation).

Number 4 does not seem likely at all, so we can pretty much discount that one.
Number 3 also doesn't seem very likely as that would imply that P is trying to cause trouble for RB.
That leaves 1 & 2 as the only real possibilities.

#1 makes the most sense in the game so far and is the most logical.
#2 makes sense if RB is working in conjunction with P and uses the 'O' name so we understand that she is on our side.

"Why? What's it all mean? I DON'T KNOW!" (Bonus points if you can name the movie that quote is from!)

[rottenralf]

Because to be consistent with the Forum rules for thread locations, only discussion of the clues from the game I guess go in that other thread. That is what I took from Lab's move post last evening (above), and I apologize that I posted it in the wrong place.


ETA: So not to double post, Pan just made this excellent connection here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=760884&postcount=396). Which brings me back to my time travel theory -- maybe they are harvesting organs they have procured in the past?? Illegal indeed!!

One of the best movies I've seen that deals with the cause and effect of messing with the past is Frequency. I love time travel movies. With that being said i am hesitant to attribute anything on Lost with time travel just yet. It could explain a lot of things but I personally would be more comfortable with a time warpage caused by magnetic releases that occur naturally on the island. It would also seem to jibe with Einstein's theory of time (not that I understand that fully) with the magnetic pulses bending the lightwaves and thus creating a time warp. I really not sure how scientifically accurate that is but it is how is sorta understand it.

[Vincent_Madison]

Let's not mix up time travel with the fact that time is relative and dependant on where you are.

Linear time is considered to be an illusion for us based on where we are (Earth) and the particular forces and physics that exist here.

Einstein and others proved scientifically that time is relative.

So just because the LOSTIES may not have "time travelled" in the sense that we see in TV shows or movies does not mean that the environment around the island may not be subject to altered laws of physics and time and space.

That could mean that the plane left Sydney in Sept 2004 as we know, and even perhaps crashed in Sep 2004.

But if time is moving differently there, then it may not be June 2006 there.

It may actually be say - 3 or 4 months after the crash - say - December 2004 as we calculate time.

That would mean the progress of the show would continue as we are seeing it, but our world keeps going as we measure it.

At some point in the future - our time could be Sept 2009 and the Losties may be at February 2004.

Technically this could happen without "Time Travel".

[aggiesean]

Ok, we moved the discussion of whether or not the IM log found at lycgy.com means that RB=P to this forum. So let's discuss it...

The IMs are dated from March (even though the dates are a bit muffed, the first one shows session opened Mar.1 and closed Mar. 6, etc which could be important or could just be a typo). This could imply a couple of things (as far as I can tell): 1. That OpenersHep IS Persephone and her name is Rachel B.(lake).
2. That O is NOT P but her real name IS RB.
3. That O IS P and she lied about her name being RB.
4. That O is NOT P AND she lied about her name (thereby adding a third person to the equation).

Number 4 does not seem likely at all, so we can pretty much discount that one.
Number 3 also doesn't seem very likely as that would imply that P is trying to cause trouble for RB.
That leaves 1 & 2 as the only real possibilities.

#1 makes the most sense in the game so far and is the most logical.
#2 makes sense if RB is working in conjunction with P and uses the 'O' name so we understand that she is on our side.

"Why? What's it all mean? I DON'T KNOW!" (Bonus points if you can name the movie that quote is from!)
I'm seeing more and more reason to think that Rachel = Persephone. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if they're not the same person, considering the maze's love for twists. (Let us also not forget that included is a mystery book with twists with the name "Twin" in it.)

So if #2 is right, why would Rachel use a name so connected with Persephone? Legitimacy? She already has that from us; both of them do.

Perhaps they are working together, but want people to think they are the same person, lest someone assume they are the same person and one of them is captured.

:Cowdance:

[yung23]

I see you all playing with time ideas.. I too have thought they could be living the same time over and over
ie : the same 108 minutes, but different possiblities each time..


so what of the iterations ?

was sayid wrong in thinking they were iterations of the broadcast ?

[Lab]

Moved to Webmaze T&S / Spoilers.

[lacenaire]

Vincent M., that's exactly the premise of "The Fantastic Journey" a tv show that imo is a precedent for Lost.

One guy in the show explains it like this:
Two identical twins.
One in Japan, and one in New York are speaking on the phone.
They were born the same day.
But now one is a day older than the other.
And yet, they are talking at the same time.



Relativity. Wow.

[Maestra]

Just bringing over a few key points from a discussion starting over in the Webmaze threads earlier today..

Hi all...

Found a new image on the compass. It's Persephone and the initials WTK.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j303/Maestra_2006/TLE/4c398494.png

Discuss. :)
Okay...I've been stewing over this since I posted it last night. My first thought was that this was supposed to get us looking for the OpenersHep/WTK conversation. But it didn't really point us in any direction, so I think probably not.

Here's my new thought: This is telling us that Persephone was the one talking with WTK. Persephone, not Rachel. I'm starting to believe that Persephone and Rachel are separate people, for sure, and that they may eventually be leading us in different directions. We may have to decide who to believe, Persephone or Rachel. Rachel uses pieces of P's hacks to convince us she is in the know... Maybe she is a red herring?

Just a few thoughts... :)
The bottom line: you think Persephone pretended to be Rachel B in that convo with WTK??
Interesting....I was sorta disappointed they were one in the same, actually.
Yep, I guess I do! :) I think P & R are both going to try to convince us THEY have the goods on THF...and they'll do things to discredit one another. Just a speculation.

Why I think this: the theme for season 3 is Us vs. Them. What a nice tie-in for this experience.

[truffula]

If, and I say IF, Rachel and Persephone aren't the same, I think it's extremely obvious whose "side" I'm gonna choose, should it come down to that. ;)

I wonder if TLE is gonna give any answers as to who the heck Fenry, Friendly, and Clue are. This "Us vs Them" in S3 is the one thing that makes me think that somehow, the "endgame" for TLE is gonna tie into all of this somehow....

/end drooKing Truff post :p

[Maestra]

Adding further fuel to the fire that someone's misleading us...

Rachel suggested in her blog that Mittlewerk's island was near the equator. Turns out, it's nowhere near the equator. Check this out:

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=763061&postcount=698

Sorry, ILE! :eek:

[back_gammon]

Apologies if I'm posting in the wrong thread or breaking a rule. I don't quite understand all the rules, even though I try.

Regarding the dynamite in the Black Rock. IMHO, the simplest answer is that someone put it there long after the ship wreck.

My guess is that the ship has been used for various purposes, including storage, by the various people who have come to the island over the past 100 years.

For example, I think dynamite would have been useful during the construction of the hatches. Someone had to build them, and my guess is that they were built after WWII, perhaps during the cold war era. Thus, the dynamite could date to the mid-twentieth century or even later.

[rottenralf]

BG - long time bud!! This is the proper thread, and about the rules...even as written they can be interpreted by any mod at any time to however they see fit so whatever you do it is wrong.
The dynamite being put there later on could be right. But that still doesn't explain why the ship is still not rotted away. Sometimes you have to take Lost reality with a grain of salt, sometimes you need to bring the whole salt shaker.
Your point wasn't mentioned so thanks for bringing it up, it's very possible.

[back_gammon]

BG - long time bud!! This is the proper thread, and about the rules...even as written they can be interpreted by any mod at any time to however they see fit so whatever you do it is wrong.
The dynamite being put there later on could be right. But that still doesn't explain why the ship is still not rotted away. Sometimes you have to take Lost reality with a grain of salt, sometimes you need to bring the whole salt shaker.
Your point wasn't mentioned so thanks for bringing it up, it's very possible.

Hey Rottenralf, thanks for the reply. Lucky and I are huge Black Rock fans and we've discussed this very topic for hours on end. Why didn't the ship rot into oblivion, especially in a tropical climate?

My best answer is that sailing vessels of this sort were very expensive things, similar in their day to our current commercial jumbo jet transports. Builders would have used the best materials and technologies available at the time, including the strongest and most appropriate woods treated with the best available wood preservatives. This could extend the life of the ship considerably and prevent some of the expected rot.

Still, as you mentioned, this is tv-land, after all, and sometimes you just have to salt liberally.

BTW, did you know that the character, Montaigne/Montand (of losing his arm in the Dark Territory fame), was a nod to a French film titled "Wages of Fear"? In the film, four men transport deadly dynamite hundreds of miles under the most hostile and frightening conditions. I had speculated about this film reference last fall, and in one of the most recent podcasts Damon and JJ confirmed the reference.

Anyway, it's something to ponder when you're thinking about the dynamite. :)

[Hurley4Prez]

I didn't know where else to put this, so I'm doing a bit of gravediggin' with this thread, but--

Does anyone else get the feeling that TLE is a game for those playing, and a fertile testing ground for the direction of the actual show? I mean, it looks as if the validity of any facts found in the game, and their connection to the actual show are still in question. It seems as if it's done on purpose (what isn't in network TV?). I'm waiting for a big reveal on the ARG, and want to see people's reaction to it. If it's positive, I think we can look forward to learning more about the Valenzetti Equation and more on LOST. If it isn't received very well, or with little fanfare, I think we can be sure that the explaination for the ARG will be "Sure, it was bogus. But you had fun, didn't you?".

Anyone else get this feeling? It seems appropriate enough, considering the subject of last season (DHARMA and experimentation).

[back_gammon]

Very possible. You make some good points. I don't know what to make of the ARG except it seems to be very appealing to a certain sub-set of Lost fans. Not all online Lost fans find it interesting, and most of the mainstream Lost viewers either don't know about it or don't care.

But your spot on with your assesment that it seems to be an experiment of some sort. My guess is that TPTB are sort of feeling their way along. Multi-platform content is still pretty new as a tie-in to television.

[Hurley4Prez]

Thanks for responding BG. :)

There does seem to be a lot of people on both sides of the love it/hate it argument. I'm not one of them, as I neither believe TLE is the second coming, nor a penis-shaped potato. I guess we both can agree that it looks more like an interesting experiment, whichever direction they take it.

I'm hoping they ofer something more substantial before October, so we can guage the online reaction to it and see how that's handled on the actual show. It's never been done before to this extent (as far as I know), and it's fun to watch.