The Timeline is Broken

[LPU]

Oceanic flight 815 disappeared in September of 2004. On September 22 of the same year the fictional docudrama LOST debuted on ABC television. LOST tells the story of the survivors of that fateful flight. Focusing on their struggles both on "craphole island" (as one survivor puts it) and in their pre-island lives, the story reveals the hidden connections between 815's passengers and teases the viewer with layer upon layer of mystery. The audience is asked to reason the hidden meaning behind the connections the castaways share, was it fate that brought down flight 815, what deeper purpose do the now famous string of numbers hold and who exactly are the mysterious others. Co-creators J.J. Abrams and Damon Lindelof promise even more questions and that yes, they do indeed hold the answers. The real question is how; How do a couple of science-fiction, comic book geeks get such a huge project off of the runway and into the air with little more than a spec. script, and with such seemingly complete and prior knowledge of the events that hadn't even transpired when the story was pitched and the pilot was in production? How did the powers that be know of flight 815? How did TPTB know of the mysterious DHARMA and of the Hanso Foundation? And a particular point of interest to this writer is how the creators knew about Cindy Chandler, flight attendant on Oceanic flight 815 and her boyfriend author Gary Troup?

Cindy and Gary were lost nearly two years ago, passengers on that ill-fated trans-Pacific flight, but they are not forgotten. They are now part and parcel of the LOST mythology. The two were portrayed by actors in the series. "Cindy" could be seen performing her duties as an Oceanic flight attendant and as a survivor from the plane's tailsection before mysteriously vanishing early in season two. You may remember "Gary" as the man who gets sucked into one of the beached jet-engines during the opening minutes of the shows pilot. The manuscript for his last book, Bad Twin, also makes several cameo appearances during the course of the first two seasons. Bad Twin is an old fashioned who-dunnit and was published this year by Hyperion books. Printed nearly two years after Gary Troup went missing the novel shares with LOST the themes of fate, good and evil and redemption. It also shares (in yet another fiction meets reality crossover) such integral players as the Hanso Foundation and Sun's (a character from LOST, played by Yunjin Kim) father, Mr. Paik. How to explain the shared knowledge between a book, two years old but only now ready for public consumption, real life organizations and people and a television show conceived and pitched on the fly with an airdate virtually identical to that of the actual crash? Are we the viewer to chalk this up to mere coincidence, fate if you will, this convergence, or do the show's creators and ABC have firsthand knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the doomed flight 815 and it's passengers?

The timelines simply do not match up. How is it that the shows creators appear to know the unknowable? How is it that ABC is able to turn out a multimillion dollar drama with so many troubling real-life connections in such an expeditious manner while it takes Hyperion eighteen plus months to release a completed manuscript by established author and Oceanic 815 lostaway Gary Troup? To be certain, LOST remains one of the most compelling dramas on television. It asks many of the proper questions and yes, even serves up some minor answers. The problem is, the questions I have are for the men behind the curtain. They aren't talking, and time may have already run out.

[Penelope]

LPU in the Webmaze T&S thread Vincent_Madison made an excellent point about the relativity of time explaining the otherwise broken timeline between the show and the webmaze. Check it out. I'd love to hear your thoughts using that theory. IMHO, its the only way to justify the problem you have eloquently pointed out above.

[LPU]

That's a good idea that VincentM has there, Pen. That would explain the show itself as we are viewing it (and is fascinating to think about) but I don't think that it would explain away the fact that TPTB seem to be privy to information that they simply should not have. It would appear that they too are far deeper down the rabbit hole than anyone may know. I'm talking class-action lawsuit deep on the part of the friends and family of Oceanic 815's passengers.

[Penelope]

Another wrench in the fire LPU is that TPTB stated time travel and issues of time are not actually a factor - so if they become one, they had to back pedal on that statement, or they never meant the statement as truth when stated. I forget where I heard that - someone posted it here.

And from the legal standpoint -- you are absolutely correct. Aggie brought that up earlier (i think it was him?) about potential lawsuits for the information that they seem to have about the crash. I guess they didn't get a legal consult for the ARG huh? LOL - they should have called me. :D

[LPU]

Bullocks. Should have known that you guys had discussed all of this to death! I swear I'll have an original idea one of these days! LOL

[Penelope]

But your points are from a slightly different perspective! Keep going!! :D

[LPU]

Maybe a truly fresh set of eyes will stumble in here and lost and be able to add a new wrinkle or two.

[LPU]

You know, maybe, just maybe TPTB aren't as dumb as we think. I mean they probably are but what if they're just as ticked about the way the show/ARG is going as we are? How far was their hand forced and in what direction and by whom? Maybe they're just as ticked with ABC and Disney as lace is. Some of the Hanso/DHARMA stuff is eerily similar to some of Walt Disney's quotes in regards to EPCOT. Now, they could never get away with this on the show itself but what if, through the course of the ARG and the way they have muddied the timelines they are taking a pot-shot at Disney and in some way actually implicating the Mouse House?

[equinox]

do the show's creators and ABC have firsthand knowledge of the circumstances surrounding the doomed flight 815 and it's passengers?
Yes, this sounds like the inescapable conclusion.

TPTB seem to be privy to information that they simply should not have. It would appear that they too are far deeper down the rabbit hole than anyone may know. I'm talking class-action lawsuit deep on the part of the friends and family of Oceanic 815's passengers.
I like your reasoning. Your explanation is consistent and elegant. There's no need to invoke a timeline inconsistency when your explanation works perfectly well (even if it may not be what TPTB had in mind initially). From an in-game perspective, if the producers can potentially get into trouble with shady organizations for revealing disturbing questions, there is in principle no reason why they couldn't get into trouble with the authorities and with the families for letting a deadly catastrophe occur when they had prior information about it but preferred to make money from those people's deaths. It might even be possible to think of some additional explanation that would save the producers face: "Your honor, we did tell the authorities about it, but at that time nobody would take seriously those revelations from an Australian psychic."

You know, maybe, just maybe TPTB aren't as dumb as we think. I mean they probably are but what if [...]they are taking a pot-shot at Disney and in some way actually implicating the Mouse House?
Hey, why not?

[bibleshopgirl]

Do you guys think that perhaps Jimmy Kimmel just messed things up by asking the actor playing Hugh McIntyre about the show "Lost" and "Hugh" messed up by answering him? Something tells me that was just a huge "boo boo" and they can't really do anything to fix it now.
You know, a good way of figuring that all out is getting Rachel Blake to answer a question about "Lost" the TV show. I bet you she'd either say "I've never heard of it" or not answer at all.

[equinox]

Do you guys think that perhaps Jimmy Kimmel just messed things up by asking the actor playing Hugh McIntyre about the show "Lost" and "Hugh" messed up by answering him?
No, I'm sure that's exactly what they had planned. The show does exist in real life, so instead of ignoring its existence in the game's universe (which would be ackward) they acknowledge it (which makes complete sense). Thus, their statement works well on the theoretical level. But more importantly, I think, it is also very practical for them, in that, paradoxically, in fact it helps keep the show and the game entirely separate. What their statement basically and explicitly tells, on the practical level, is that absolutely nothing at all from the show can be considered canon, certain or factual, for the purposes of the game.

When we are watching the show, we go with the logic of the show: we can build theories about the show's story and universe and, to that end, we consider what is seen on the show as being real, as actually happening, we can consider what happens there as canon, we can infer reasonable conclusions from those events, and we can build theories based on those "facts" and on the reasonable inferences derived from them. But, on the other hand, when we are playing the game, during the time we are playing the game, we must use a different logic, it's a different universe, where what is seen in the show is not considered real, and it can be anywhere between 0% and 100% inspired or not by "reality".

Therefore, when we build theories relating to the game's story and universe, the only elements that can be considered real are the "facts" that have been specifically created for the game's universe (facts which can be somewhat difficult to determine since we do not witness them directly but instead we gain knowledge of them through hearsay from someone else) and, in a certain measure, facts from real life (when they are not in too flagrant contradiction with game-specific "facts"). Theories about the game's story which would attempt to include any show-specific element would simply be built on quicksand, because in the game's universe any show-specific element can be entirely false.

Also, from an out-of-show and out-of-game perspective, what the statement also tells us implicitly is that the game-specific elements are not canon for the show's universe (just as it tells us explicitly from an in-game perspective that the show-specific elements are not canon for the game, as mentioned above). The events that happen in the show cannot be considered by us at the same time as really happening (as they are in the show's logic) and as not really happening (as is the case in the game's logic). Since, in the game's universe, the show is explicitly acknowledged as being a fictional show, as per McIntyre's statement, that game-specific fact is incompatible with the show's different internal logic. Indeed, we cannot play at the same time by the show's logic and by the game's logic. At any given moment, we choose to play by one or the other.

[OHIOBRONCO]

I truly believe that the whole Jimmy Kimmel interview is being given way too much importance. The show has to be part of the mythology of the game and vice versa. Otherwise, why bother with the game? The plane crashed two years ago in game and many of the things in the game happened before the crash. Those incidents which occur in current time will only help to fill holes in the DARHMA / Hanso story.

[bibleshopgirl]

I totally agree with you, Ohio. If the Lost producers and the ARG producers are at all worth their salt, then what we learn in the ARG will have bearing on what happens in the show. Now, granted, everything that happens in the ARG is taking place 2 years after the events that take place on the show. Nevertheless, any "history" we learn in the ARG ought to be same as the "history" on the show....such as what we learned through the ARG the initials D.H.A.R.M.A. stand for ought to be the same as what I hope the rest of Lost's loyal followers learn at some point during the show.
As for the Jimmy Kimmel thing, I stand by that it was a big mistake. This wouldn't be the first time that the ARG producers have made a glaring mistake and I'm afraid it won't be the last. I don't believe that "Lost" is a fictional TV show in the world of the ARG. It doesn't make sense and it wouldn't work. There is no way that a TV show based on an actual event of a plane crash could debut on the same day that aforementioned plane crash happened.