Frame Story/Historical Fiction: Understanding The Lost Experience

[aggiesean]

This theory seeks not to better understand the television show Lost, but to understand the world of “The Lost Experience” Alternative Reality Game (ARG) by separating what is considered factual on the show from what is embellishment by the show’s writers.

I. Introduction

“The Lost Experience” combines two literary techniques: frame storytelling with historical fiction.

Frame Stories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_Narrative) contain stories within another story. A classic example is Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstein) where Captain Walton is told the inner story by Victor Frankenstein after Victor is rescued by the Captain. In this sense, “The Lost Experience” is fiction to our world, and in the world created by “The Lost Experience” exists the television show Lost. Now, just as one may hear only Victor Frankenstein’s tale without the outer story of Captain Walton, one may watch Lost without ever partaking in “The Lost Experience.” The full creation of the writers, however, in both cases includes this outer frame.

Historical Fiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_fiction) contains historical events, yet includes fictional embellishments by the writer. Examples from literature include An Occurrence at (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22An_Occurrence_at_Owl_Creek_Bridge%22)Owl Creek Bridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22An_Occurrence_at_Owl_Creek_Bridge%22), which takes place during the Civil War. Movies that can be considered historical fiction, often containing the phrase “based on a true story” before the beginning of the movie, include Erin Brockovich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich_%28film%29), Titanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_%281997_film%29), and The Perfect Storm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Perfect_Storm_%28film%29), among countless others. This also includes the television show Deadwood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadwood_%28TV_series%29), which includes real-life individuals such as Wild Bill Hickok, Calamity Jane, George Hearst, Al Swearingen, Seth Bullock and Sol Star.

To the real world, Lost would not be considered historical fiction; there are not enough similarities between the television show and our world to make this connection. It is clear, however, that many entities that are on the show that do not exist in the real world DO exist in the world of “The Lost Experience.” Thus, Lost is to the ARG world what Deadwood is to our world: historical fiction.

From this point forward, the word “real” refers to what is real in the world of the Lost Experience, NOT what is real in our world; thus, what is true in the outer story. Conversely, the word “fake” refers to what is not real in the ARG world, yet is true in the context of Lost. Anything considered “fake” below may be proven true in the future; as this happens, this post will be updated.

Formulation of what is real includes all sources from the Lost Experience, with the exception of:
1) The show Lost, unless it is proven real by other sources.
2) The story within Bad Twin, unless proven real by other sources. Text from the book’s “Note from the Editors”, the letters from Gary Troup and Christine DeVries at the beginning of the hardback version, and the video interviews between Gary Troup and Laird Granger are considered real.
3) Other sources within the ARG world whose statements can be considered untrustworthy, for reasons to be defined below.

II. Real Events

In “Live Together, Die Alone, Part 2”, Locke tells Desmond that Oceanic Flight 815 crashed on September 22, 2004, as it traveled from Sydney to Los Angeles. The outer cover of Bad Twin verifies that Oceanic Airlines does exist, and that its plane, Flight 815, did crash. The “Note from the Editors” inside states

As many readers are already aware, Gary Troup has been missing since September 2004, when the jetliner that was carrying him from Sydney to Los Angeles crashed somewhere over the South Pacific.

This verifies that the crash occurred in September 2004, though it does not confirm that it crashed on September 22nd. In addition, there is no proof that the plane truly crashed on an island. Therefore, FOR THE MOMENT, this should be considered false, writer embellishments to enhance the program. This would not be unprecedented; the aforementioned The Perfect Storm was based on a missing ship where no one knows what truly occurred on that ship; much of the movie was false.

III. Real Organizations

The “Orientation” video on the program introduced us to two organizations: The Hanso Foundation and a program within the Foundation, The Dharma Initiative. The Hanso Foundation is clearly a real organization, as verified by its website (http://www.thehansofoundation.org), commercials during the show, an interview with Hugh McIntyre on Jimmy Kimmel Live, and by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse during their May podcasts and the July 22nd ComiCon panel (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=828771&postcount=65).

The Dharma Initiative was revealed to be real on June 13th, with the anagram revealed to stand for Department of Heuristics And Research on Material Applications. This anagram was verified by film clip 3gtvi0m11 on HansoExposed. (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21995) In addition, the first frame of video fragment r3pux4 contains images that are used to represent the Swan and Pearl hatches on the show, though whether or not the uses of those hatches are the same in the real world are yet to be seen.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/r3pux4.jpg
Other information from the show, however, does not verify with real life. Both the “Orientation” and “?” videos contain copyright dates of 1980. In “Live Together, Die Alone,” Kelvin says he joined the DHARMA Initiative after Operation Desert Storm in the 1990s. However, on Rachel Blake’s FAQ page posted on July 25th, she states:

There is also a seventh project…called the DHARMA Initiative. Little is known about this program, but everything I’ve discovered has led me to the conclusion that the scientists of the DHARMA Initiative disappeared over 30 years ago.

In addition, the HansoExposed video contains a copyright of 1975. Finally, during Hugh McIntyre’s interview on Jimmy Kimmel Live, he stated that the DHARMA Initiative did once exist, but was discontinued in 1987. Are all these uncompatible?

It is possible that the DHARMA Initiative scientists disappeared from public view in 1975, yet still had the means to create the video in 1980, was officially “closed” in 1987, but could still contact Kelvin in 1991. Possible, but not provable at this time. Given the insistence by Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse that Lost itself is a show, it is problematic to assume that EVERYTHING from the show is real.

With this in mind, we can still say that the 1975 video is real, the fact that The Hanso Foundation formally shut down the DHARMA Initiative in 1987 is real, and that Rachel currently sees the DHARMA scientists as “missing” is real. The show orientation videos, however, as well as Kelvin Inman’s arrival in the 1990s, FOR THE MOMENT, should be considered fake, embellishments by Damon, Carlton, and the Lost writing staff.

Finally, signs in “Fire + Water” and labels in “The Whole Truth” refer to Widmore Construction and Widmore Labs, respectively. On July 10th, Rachel revealed in her blog that she used to work for “Widmore,” suggesting that, though we don’t have proof that Widmore has a Construction or Labs facility, Widmore does in fact exist as a company.

IV. Real People

The following individuals on the show Lost are real:

Gary Troup—the name is seen on the manuscript of Bad Twin shown in the episodes “The Long Con” and “Two for the Road”, though as of yet Gary Troup has never been seen on the show. The publication of Bad Twin and subsequent interviews with the author show that Gary Troup is real. The individual videotaped in the interviews can be assumed to be the real Gary Troup.
http://lostpedia.com/images/thumb/4/41/GaryTroup.jpg/250px-GaryTroup.jpg

Cindy Chandler—The Oceanic Airlines flight attendant has been seen on a few episodes encompassing both seasons. The editors notes of Bad Twin, as well as Gary Troup’s interviews, reveal her to be a real person (and that they were lovers). She has only been seen on the show in scenes on the plane and on the island. This person can be assumed to be an actress in this situation.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/cindy.jpg

Alvar Hanso and the Degroots—These three individuals are staples of the “Orientation” and “?” videos. Alvar Hanso is also a central piece (albeit “missing”) of the ARG, and the Degroots were named in the HansoExposed video. Thus, these individuals can be said to be real. The Degroots have not yet been definitively seen elsewhere other than the show, and those individuals on the show should for the moment be considered actors.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/degroots.jpg
Alvar Hanso was definitively identified by the same image by The Hanso Foundation website. However, the following exchange at ComiCon:

Lindelof: [Alvar]'s an actor.

Cuse: He's in a window in our TV show.

Rachel: Alvar Hanso is real...
This suggests that Alvar Hanso on the show is an actor. The Hanso Foundation may have used the actor's image on its website to cover for the lack of a true image of the currently-missing leader of the organization.
http://folk.ntnu.no/jonkjeti/Lost/Alvar.jpg
However, if video fragment 4kvklaydm0 (http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/HansoExposed/4kvklaydm0.png) is followed by tribalwars (http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Webmaze%20Pics/HansoExposed/tribalwars1.jpg), as now appears to be the case, then this appears to be the real Alvar Hanso:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/e82kni8l.jpg

Magnus Hanso and Valenzetti—both have appeared on the show via the “Lockdown” Blast Door Map. A book posted on Rachel Blake’s blog in June revealed that a Magnus Hanso was involved in illegal slave trade in the 1880s. In addition, we have learned from Rachel Blake and DJ Dan that Enzo Valenzetti was a real individual who worked on a Valenzetti Equation. These individuals existed, but whether Magnus Hanso really appeared on the island or Valenzetti’s Equation was really used in research on the island remains to be seen.

In addition, it is more likely that the following are real individuals, though definitive proof does not exist:

The Widmores—“Live Together, Die Alone” introduced us to two members of the Widmore family: Charles and Penelope. While Widmore has been proven to be a real important name, however, no references to these individuals have been made. In addition, in the previous names, we have names and situations that tie the show character to the real world; this does not yet exist here; only a common surname exists. The fact that I share the same first and last name with an MLB first baseman doesn’t mean I play baseball. This is potentially the same situation; therefore, I would not say for certainty that Charles and Penelope Widmore are real.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/charles.jpghttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/penelope.jpg

The Paiks—Mr. Paik appeared in “…In Translation”, and has been referred to in other episodes. While references have been made to Paik Heavy Industries in the ARG, no official connection to the Mr. Paik on the show has been made. As with the Widmores, a similarity in last name does not mean it is the same person. That being said, any future revelation saying Mr. Paik is real would be VERY significant, because it would greatly increase the likelihood that his daughter, Sun-Hya Paik, and her husband, Jin-Soo Kwon, are real.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/mrpaik.jpghttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/sunandjin.jpg

No other character on the show has been referred to by the ARG, and thus cannot be assumed to be real.

V. Importance of Cross-World Interactions (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=864462&postcount=10)
VI. The Writers' Motivation Behind a Framed Story/Historical Fiction Combination (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=864462&postcount=10)

VII. Disclaimer

Everything above is how I see what is real and what is embellished for the show as of today, August 11, 2006. This may change in the future, and this post will be updated as new information is obtained. If you notice something that needs a link for clarification (I kinda got tired after a while), please let me know. Any additional input would also be welcomed. :D

:Cowdance:

[drabauer]

Excellent job! I look forward to expansions and embellishments of this thread. Anyone care to unmuddy the comic con waters?

Has any other ARG employed this kind of a structure?

Maybe it would help to have a tree diagram or something.

And of course the DeGroots have just made an appearance as characters in the ARG.

[aggiesean]

Anyone care to unmuddy the comic con waters?

The main problem from ComiCon was this exchange:

Rachel: Stop it! You're protecting him. You're protecting a very real, very dangerous organization.

Lindelof: It's not real! It's a television show! There is no Alvar Hanso!

Rachel: It is real! The Hanso Foundation is real! The Dharma Initiative is real! Thomas Verner Mittlework is real and what he's doing right now, in Sri Lanka, he's doing terrible things, that's real. Where is Alvar Hanso?

Lindelof: He's an actor.

Cuse: He's in a window in our TV show.

Rachel: Alvar Hanso is real and I am* living proof of that and my name is Rachel Blake and I am real!

At first, this appears to say that Alvar isn't even real in the ARG world. However, it could also be saying that:
a) The Alvar seen in the "Orientation" video is an actor, as well as
b) The ARG-world Alvar Hanso is dead. ("There is no Alvar Hanso" = none living, anyway)

As far as diagrams go, I'm not as good as mapping those out, I'm afraid, other than spelling out what is above. :)

Also, drabauer asked me via PM if I had a theory as to why the writers of the ARG used a framed story in the first place. I'm not certain yet, but here are a few ideas I had:

Firstly, there are many aspects of Lost, such as the smoke monster and the polar bear, that make the show science-fiction to our world. Making these aspects real automatically would turn off Lost viewers that are not as interested in the science-fiction aspects of the show.

Secondly, the outer frame has introduced sources of information for the ARG that would not be available otherwise, such as the Damon/Carlton Podcasts, ComiCon, and the Speaker/Ninja blogs, allowing these sources to operate within the ARG world without insisting that everything that happened with the island is true.

That brings me to my third idea: We found out in the finale that the plane crashed 22 months ago; if they say now, in July 2006, that everything from the island is fact, they've given away the ending to the entire series. Now we know that as of May 2006 (when Bad Twin was released), Flight 815 is said to be missing instead, leaving what has happened to the islanders in limbo so as to keep the rest of the series mysterious.

Finally, depending on what we learn is real in the ARG world, another comparison could be possible: that to Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle." This was a fictional novel, yet with enough truth and detail so as to bring about change to our world. Depending on what direction the show takes in Season 3, there could be enough outcry against Hanso in the ARG world so as to bring about change in that world.

:Cowdance:

[drabauer]

Thanks aggiesean! The Jungle is a great comparison, although another metafictional one. I wonder if they will ever clarify the relaltion of the show to the ARG, or leave the frame edges fuzzy, so to speak.

[rvturnage]

Aggie, great summation of the two "worlds", thanks...although I knew all of it from TLE itself, it stayed random in my head. This really helps remind me what's what...

I have to believe that TPTB will clarify the relation of the show to the ARG and that ultimately the show will be revealed to be more than just fiction...I can't see them taking the impetus for the whole thing, and making it a bit player in the overall story.

[LostViking]

Other information from the show, however, does not verify with real life. Both the “Orientation” and “?” videos contain copyright dates of 1980. In “Live Together, Die Alone,” Kelvin says he joined the DHARMA Initiative after Operation Desert Storm in the 1990s. However, on Rachel Blake’s FAQ page posted on July 25th, she states:

Just a small point, but kelvin's statement doesn't disprove that Dharma is real in the show and game. Kelvin could have been "dropped-in" to fufill a mission after the fact.

Nice job by the way.:)

[drabauer]

It strikes me that part of the tension in the ARG is the guessing game we are forced to play about just how much of the Sri Lanka film will play into the Lost reality. With every new snippet we seem to have a more direct tie-in to the show. THis puts the show in a strange position. Whereas it seems that, in Bad Twin "the names were changed to protect the guilty," if is more and more looking as thought the "fictional" Lost opened itself up to libel by using the actual names of Hanso operatives. As long as the show never directly accuses those individuals of heinous acts, we can maintain the fiction that the "show within the ARG" is a thinly veiled roman a clef. But Lost is moving to implicate Dharma, and the the film appears to incorporate the backstory of the show.

[LostViking]

It strikes me that part of the tension in the ARG is the guessing game we are forced to play about just how much of the Sri Lanka film will play into the Lost reality. .....we can maintain the fiction that the "show within the ARG" is a thinly veiled roman a clef.

Thank you drabauer, I thought it was just me ;)

I can't see how they avoid the concept that the Hanso foundation and Dharma Intiative that is now revealed in the webgame is the same as the show. I can buy that maybe Jack, Sawer and Kate don't really exist in the webgame - but I haven't seen enough to prove they don't either. How reliable is Rachel anyway?

[Lawboy]

It is a conundrum for TPTB either way now. The purists and non-TLE followers are going to be unhappy if events taken from the ARG are now canon for the show. And the TLE players are going to be bothered if the thing they did all summer is simply discarded and ignored come Season 3. Personally, I hope the TLE simply leads right in to Season 3, gives some backstory, but does not directly find its way on to the show. Just gives some depth to the Dharma and island history pre-Losties.

[aggiesean]

I've added two sections to my overall explanation and theory, posted here and linked from post one:

V. Importance of Cross-World Interactions
The three worlds of discussion can be described visually as such:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/ThreeWorlds.gif
Here the boundaries between the worlds are not set in stone; there is some interaction by the same people, though their mission in each world is different.

Let’s simplify the discussion at first to the two-world model: the world of the show and the real world. Some similarities exist between the two worlds; for example, songs by bands such as The Kinks (“The 23rd Psalm”, “Fire + Water”) and Dave Matthews Band (“Abandoned”) show that these bands and the particular songs played/sung exist in both worlds. However, not everything is the same; Oceanic Airlines does not exist in our world, and Flight 815 (or any major airline, for that matter) did not crash on September 22, 2004. Yet this is a fact of World 3, as it is noted in the figure above.

Some persons do exist in both worlds, yet take on different roles in each. For example:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/jackphoto.jpg
In World 3, he is Jack Shepard, a surgeon. In World 1, however, he is Matthew Fox, an actor. Treating him as Matthew Fox when in World 3, or calling him Jack in World 1, both have the same result: an awkward situation, because though he is physically in both worlds, the characterization in both worlds are different.

In the same way, someone can exist in all three worlds above, with differences in characterization in each:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/danieldaekim.jpg
In World 3, this man is Jin-Soo Kwon. In Worlds 1 and 2, he is Daniel Dae Kim, here seated at ComiCon. The band on his right wrist, however, has different interpretations in the two worlds. In World 1, he was given this before the panel, possibly by a stagehand backstage, so to help reveal a clue for participants in The Lost Experience game. In World 2, however, Rachel Blake singled out Kim, as well as Jorge Garcia, Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse with her “You’ve got blood on your hands” rant. Clearly, in World 2, these four were participants (willing or unwilling) in revealing the true nature of the Hanso Foundation.

How do we, the players, fit in? Well, online personalities themselves are creations of a new world. Very few of us reveal our full names online; instead, people are known by screennames chosen for media such as message boards or chat rooms. These can be based off of statements (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/member.php?u=2217), characters (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/member.php?u=59), symbols (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/member.php?u=13327), etc. Even when someone’s real name is known, the vast majority of reference to the person is to the screenname, to protect the relative anonymity the online community has inherent within it. Thus, by even taking part in a message board, one becomes members of two worlds: the world offline and the world online.

With this in mind, we see that it is easy for us to take on membership in a third world such as TLE. The creator of the non-TLE affiliated oceanicworldair.com, who goes by the screenname Vincent Madison, told me that from the perspective of a character, “direct interaction with the players is not required, but can enhance the experience greatly.” He also noted “the players in a successful ARG take on their own characters and do not end up being ‘themselves’” (Vincent Madison, personal communication). In other words, successful Alternate Realities such as The Lost Experience allow the players to become, even in a small way, part of the action.

Posting on the comments page to Rachel Blake’s blog worried for her safety, putting together the Sri Lanka video on Hanso Exposed, conversing with the Retrievers of Truth on AOL Instant Messenger…these are just some of the ways in which participants in TLE have interacted with World 2. In doing so, we are not ourselves; we are in effect taking on a different characterization in these encounters.

These interactions are in some cases returned by World 2 characters. The May 24th update from RetrieversofTruth cited emri.perception.net, a website created by LostTV user lxicon. Maestra, another user at LostTV, conversed with the user “thejeepchannel”, an in-game character on YouTube:

I remembered reading here on the boards that someone had added thejeepchannel as a favorite and received a message from him. So I decided to send him a message and ask what he had against DJ Dan. Was I ever surprised to receive a response! He initiated contact twice, I believe, and rarely responded to my messages. But when he did, he was always very brief, and to the point. I got the feeling he was rushed (possibly contacting many people?) or anxious, trying to hide what he was doing. That, of course, added to the excitement. :D ” (Maestra, personal communication)





She was eventually cited in a video from him, posted on the official Jeep site, as a “true believer.” Cited by screenname, of course; her World 2 personality.

However, just as you can be the “same” person, yet operate under different characterizations in different worlds, it again becomes problematic to automatically apply one world’s characterization to another world. It is important to keep this in mind when attempting to apply one world’s truths to another. Again, what is true on the show is not necessarily true in TLE, and vice versa.

VI. The Writers' Motivation Behind a Framed Story/Historical Fiction Combination
When the creators behind Lost began planning The Lost Experience, they must have discussed how best to relay this information in such a way as to make people interested in following along, while not revealing so much through TLE that those who watch only the show really miss out. Though some TLE information has been revealed from live press conferences, talk show interviews, commercials and print ads, the internet was chosen as the primary vehicle behind dissemination of TLE.

The internet has allowed communication to flourish in the past few years in ways that couldn’t have been imagined a generation ago. Its use has increased exponentially, to where many today can’t imagine a world without it. This near-dependence, combined with the large communities dedicated to Lost on the Web, made the Internet the prime location for TLE dissemination. However, as mentioned above, the ability for the online community to interact with TLE is vital for its success.

So how could TLE come to the internet, allowing participants to take part in the story (without too much participation)? Let’s go back to the 2-world model, that of Lost and that of our world. Let’s also remember that the crash survivors in World 3 have no contact outside their island. How then can the players interact with people on the island? The crash survivors can’t have contact with us, for continuity of the show. The “others” may or may not have outside contact; we truly don’t know this in the context of the show thus far, and revealing that they do may reveal “too much” in terms of future plot. Thus, TLE should focus on the backstory, away from the island.

What is important enough about the backstory that could keep players’ interest for the summer? Here, I believe the “Orientation” filmstrip came to mind. Online interest skyrocketed after its airing, with a preponderance of fansites accompanying this. Fans wanted to know more about this mysterious Dharma Initiative, and The Hanso Foundation that funded it. Not all questions could be answered on the show, lest the show dissolve into 44 minutes of dialogue explaining these organizations. TLE, however, would allow this information to be distributed more easily.

So why a framed story, putting TLE between our world and Lost, rather than part of the Lost world? And why write TLE so that, according to TLE, Lost isn’t completely fiction, but rather historical fiction? In hindsight, I think we were told this in May, and are seeing the confirmation of this during this third act.

In “?”, the Pearl orientation video told us that everything we saw in the “Orientation” filmstrip was a lie. The moods in the viewing rooms in both cases accurately mirrored what the audience was thinking; after “Orientation”, “We have to watch that again”, while after “?”, a feeling of uselessness. Even for those of us who loved “?”, stuck in the back of our minds was this voice saying “Everything you thought was cool was a lie.”

This voice, however, was disproved in “Live Together, Die Alone”, the moment that Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Michael and Hurley came across the tubes in the field. The viewer THEN knew what the real lie was, two weeks after “?” aired.

Now remember that the writers behind Lost are also the brainchildren behind The Lost Experience.

How did you feel when you heard Hugh McIntyre tell Jimmy Kimmel that Lost was a fictional show? At this point in TLE (May 17th), we had no show tie-ins other than the Hanso Foundation; no Black Rock, no Dharma, no numbers. Why spend all summer on something so loosely related to the show we all loved? If Lost was Friends, TLE would become Joey.

By making Lost historical fiction, the ending result would be an affirmation of the views of the interested participants, coming after the disappointment of being told our beliefs were a lie. Just as the Season 2 Finale was, in my opinion, enhanced by the disbelief after The Pearl film, the final reveal of the true nature of The Hanso Foundation and the Dharma Initiatives will be enhanced by the “just a show” revelation.

The writers of Lost and TLE have shown that they like playing with our emotions and minds.

And we like it.

:Cowdance:

[TerminalFrost]

Great thread aggie, and well thought out.

One thing though. On this question:

Other information from the show, however, does not verify with real life. Both the “Orientation” and “?” videos contain copyright dates of 1980. In “Live Together, Die Alone,” Kelvin says he joined the DHARMA Initiative after Operation Desert Storm in the 1990s.

And:

In addition, the HansoExposed video contains a copyright of 1975. Finally, during Hugh McIntyre’s interview on Jimmy Kimmel Live, he stated that the DHARMA Initiative did once exist, but was discontinued in 1987. Are all these uncompatible?

I had this thought.

To double check, I re-watched the Hugh McIntyre interview. He states that the Dharma Initiative was cancelled in 1987, then immediately clarifies and says that their funding was pulled.

I read that to mean that the Hanso Foundation stopped funding Dharma in 1987 and withdrew their support. It does not say, however, that the Dharma Initiative didn't go elsewhere for their funding.

If the Dharma Initiative found alternate funding to replace the monies provided by the Hanso Foundation, they could very well have still been active on the Island when Inman was recruited after Desert Storm.

And if they were still active in that way, McIntyre and the Hanso Foundation may not have known it, or did not wish for that information to be known.

Kind of plays into the idea of the "Incident" mentioned on the Blast Door Map being the split of Dharma and Hanso, or the event which triggered that split.

[rvturnage]

To double check, I re-watched the Hugh McIntyre interview. He states that the Dharma Initiative was cancelled in 1987, then immediately clarifies and says that their funding was pulled.

I read that to mean that the Hanso Foundation stopped funding Dharma in 1987 and withdrew their support. It does not say, however, that the Dharma Initiative didn't go elsewhere for their funding.

If the Dharma Initiative found alternate funding to replace the monies provided by the Hanso Foundation, they could very well have still been active on the Island when Inman was recruited after Desert Storm.

And if they were still active in that way, McIntyre and the Hanso Foundation may not have known it, or did not wish for that information to be known.

Kind of plays into the idea of the "Incident" mentioned on the Blast Door Map being the split of Dharma and Hanso, or the event which triggered that split. I always took that line from McIntyre about DHARMA's funding being pulled to simply mean Hanso quit funding in the open, but continued behind the scenes and off the books.

But you're right, Terminal...there's no reason they couldn't have gotten funding from other sources either. Either way, I'm not too bothered by the dates on the orientation films.

[dp2]

TerminalFrost, they don't have to be compatible. Inman exists in World 3, the Lost television show. McIntyre and HansoExposed exist in World 2, TLE. Even if in the future we learn that there is an Inman in World 2, there's no reason to believe they're the same person with the same history. Inman3 would be a fictionalized version of Inman2.

On top of all that, it's possible Inman was telling untruths, intentionally (he was lying) or unintentionally (he believed he joined DHARMA but it was something else). But that's outside the scope of this discussion.

ETA: I think I disagree with some of Aggie's wonderful post. I don't think cross-world interactions are necessarily important, though it depends on the nature of the interaction. I think of the backstory to TLE thusly: TPTB of World 2 heard about Hanso, DHARMA, and related people and history, all of World 2, and decided to work it into their show (World 3), including some real (in World 2) names and events. So, if Paik shows up in TLE, that need only mean that TPTB (of World 2) heard about a man named Paik related to Hanso and incorporated him into their television show.

I also differ on what is real in sections 2-4. Wrap your brain around this: there is actually another layer here, between world 2 and 3, which is a TLE within the TLE. Before TLE, we had Bad Twin and oceanicair.com (that may not be the correct address) which acted as sort of an embryonic TLE. They presented elements of World 3 as though they existed in World 1, and thus they made up their own subworld -- I'll call it World 2A, to remain consistent with all previous posts in this thread. That worked fine, until the Hanso of World 2 protested the publication of the book. We now have to view Bad Twin as a TLE within World 2. After all, if we suppose Oceanic 815 did disappear in Sept, 2004, in World 2, how did the World 2 TPTB write a show about it before it happened (the show still premiered in Sept, 2004, in World 2, correct?) So, the book must exist in world 2 the way it originally existed in World 1. Hyperion of World 2 published a book in cooperation with ABC of World 2 as though a character in World 3 really existed in World 2. Borders of World 2 even distributed interviews with Gary Troup, who really only exists in World 2A and World 3. In the reality of World 2, he is only an actor.

This may seem like I'm overcomplicating it, but really the crux of it is that the dates prevent Gary Troup and Flight 815 from existing in World 1 or 2, so only a world between 2 and 3 makes sense.

Know where it gets really crazy? There's another world! The world of the actual Bad Twin story! And that story is fiction within both World 2A and World 3!!!

[aggiesean]

In light of recent events, I have made two additions to my first post:
1) That the logos used for the Swan and Pearl hatches were based on real logos according to video fragment r3pux4:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/r3pux4.jpg
2) Assuming that video clip "4kvklaydm0" is followed by "tribalwars," which given video evidence appears to be the case at the moment, we can now identify this man as the real Alvar Hanso:
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/aggiesean/e82kni8l.jpg
ETA: I think I disagree with some of Aggie's wonderful post. I don't think cross-world interactions are necessarily important, though it depends on the nature of the interaction. I think of the backstory to TLE thusly: TPTB of World 2 heard about Hanso, DHARMA, and related people and history, all of World 2, and decided to work it into their show (World 3), including some real (in World 2) names and events. So, if Paik shows up in TLE, that need only mean that TPTB (of World 2) heard about a man named Paik related to Hanso and incorporated him into their television show.

I also differ on what is real in sections 2-4. Wrap your brain around this: there is actually another layer here, between world 2 and 3, which is a TLE within the TLE. Before TLE, we had Bad Twin and oceanicair.com (that may not be the correct address) which acted as sort of an embryonic TLE. They presented elements of World 3 as though they existed in World 1, and thus they made up their own subworld -- I'll call it World 2A, to remain consistent with all previous posts in this thread. That worked fine, until the Hanso of World 2 protested the publication of the book. We now have to view Bad Twin as a TLE within World 2. After all, if we suppose Oceanic 815 did disappear in Sept, 2004, in World 2, how did the World 2 TPTB write a show about it before it happened (the show still premiered in Sept, 2004, in World 2, correct?) So, the book must exist in world 2 the way it originally existed in World 1. Hyperion of World 2 published a book in cooperation with ABC of World 2 as though a character in World 3 really existed in World 2. Borders of World 2 even distributed interviews with Gary Troup, who really only exists in World 2A and World 3. In the reality of World 2, he is only an actor.

This may seem like I'm overcomplicating it, but really the crux of it is that the dates prevent Gary Troup and Flight 815 from existing in World 1 or 2, so only a world between 2 and 3 makes sense.

Know where it gets really crazy? There's another world! The world of the actual Bad Twin story! And that story is fiction within both World 2A and World 3!!!
One issue I've found with this analysis: What was the first air date of Lost in World 2? Where were we told that it was the same as in World 1? It is possible that the show began airing in World 2 later than in our world.

That being said, I have been entertaining the idea that there are, in fact, more than three worlds involved here. Of course, when you think about it, there are over 6 billion "realities" in the world, with everybody's own version of reality being slightly different. Why not have more than three realities in The Lost Experience?

I think I'll stay with three worlds here, for now, though.

:Cowdance:

[dp2]

One issue I've found with this analysis: What was the first air date of Lost in World 2? Where were we told that it was the same as in World 1? It is possible that the show began airing in World 2 later than in our world.
You have a point. That is possible, as far as I know. It could have been uttered at ComicCon, which seems to have taken place in World 2.

I think I'll stay with three worlds here, for now, though.
It's your thread! :cool: I'm just glad to see someone else considering the whole thing in the same way I have been. I'll keep watching here for discussion.

[aggiesean]

:bump:ing this thread because of new information arising from "Exposé":

So now there is a fourth frame in the story: a new innermost frame of the world of the "Exposé" television show, on which Nikki was a guest star. I'm giving it the stance of a separate level based on the following:
-its importance to the plot: Nikki and Paolo would not be on the plane had it not been her guest spot on the show as part of their plan to obtain the diamonds.
-Hurley's assertion of it being "the best hour in the history of television": we now have a fictional account given a high priority by a fictional character. This differs from the usual literary references within Lost in that it is not simply seen/mentioned in passing.

So re-evaluating things from the perspective of the world of TLE, we have one show (Exposé) within a historical fiction show (Lost). The show has been acknowledged by Hugh McIntyre, Rachel Blake, and DJ Dan, all of whom have lambasted the show. But why? With regards to Hugh McIntyre and the Hanso Foundation, the answer is obvious: it portrays the company as a mysterious (and possibly evil) company with random programs on a remote island in the South Pacific? But why Rachel Blake and DJ Dan? Why hate a show that reveals so much of what they're fighting against?

Because of things like "Exposé."

It's one thing to take the true account of the crash of Oceanic Flight 815 and turn it into a historical fiction narrative. This act requires embellishment of the facts, enhancement of characterization, etc. It's a necessary evil in terms of making a program that informs, yet entertains.

But why the wide range between information and characterization between episodes? There are writers who bring this true account to the writing room and slide in the truth to alert the public. And there are writers who accentuate the show aspect of it so as to discredit the truth.

"Exposé" is a shot fired by discrediting writers aimed at those revealing the truth.

Television shows within television shows are not new, with thematic episodes addressing this issue on programs such as Murder She Wrote, Friends, and The X-Files. As in "Exposé", the show within is made more ridiculous than the original show. This theme serves to remind the viewer that what you are watching IS A SHOW, not reality.

That is a message that would make Rachel Blake and DJ Dan furious, but plays PERFECTLY into the hands of the Hanso Foundation. We've already seen THF buy advertising time during the show itself so as to show what it's "really" like, to combat its image from the more "informative" episodes. This is a new step in tactics; not just to get the other writers to shy away from revealing information about its programs, but to attack WITHIN THE SHOW those who would use the show as proof of THF's problems.

:Cowdance:

[Rick James]

I'm confused...

It's all technically fake right?

maybe I'm tired. I mean I know it's a show and everything but, I thought ABC bought the rights to make a mini corporation called the hanso foundation and registered all the websites under ABC. So in a sense, the hanso foundation doesn't really exist right?

Do I sound like an idiot?

[aggiesean]

I'm confused...

It's all technically fake right?

maybe I'm tired. I mean I know it's a show and everything but, I thought ABC bought the rights to make a mini corporation called the hanso foundation and registered all the websites under ABC. So in a sense, the hanso foundation doesn't really exist right?

Do I sound like an idiot?
Not at all. :) In the world where we exist, all these things, be it Hanso Foundation or Middle Earth or Harry Potter, whatever, are all fake. However, each fictional creation is a world within itself, where what's real and what isn't can be different than our world.

In terms of simply the show, Lost, it operates within a different world than ours, where The Hanso Foundation, DHARMA, Oceanic Airlines, etc., are real.

The Lost Experience, however, did not exist in the same world as Lost, but not in ours either; it was the middle shell of a Russian doll, between our worlds. Some things existed in both our world and the world of TLE that did not exist in the Lost world, such as when Daniel Dae Kim and Jorge Garcia were treated as actors at a TLE-related event. The Hanso Foundation, however, existed as a company both on the show and in the world of TLE; when I said "real" in my previous post, I meant "real" in terms of TLE.

This in itself was an issue in TLE, where the real Hanso Foundation disagreed with its characterization on the show Lost.

Hope this helps. :)

:Cowdance:

[kpoz]

Agh, just reading this stuff reminds me of the sheer agony I felt during that Jimmey Kimmel interview.

It would have been fine for them to till talk about DHARMA and the Hanso website, but as soon as Huge Macentyre said the word "LOST", (much less going on to denouce it as a fictional show) it really ruined all the mystique about TLE for me.

Up until that point, all the Hanso websites and Oceanic stuff was so mezmorizing to me becuase it was a true extension of the events of the story that we, the "world off the island" could interact with. It was almost like actually being a character in LOST, with learning little bits about Dharma, the Island, Hanso, etc while mixed in with all kinds of wonderful confusion and deceit; just like the survivours on the island. We could explore some of the mythology of the show on our own.

Then, that bloody interview came along and totally severed that connection, and TLE just became like some cheesy spin-off movie, like "Joey" from Friends, or if some minor character from the 007 Bond movies got his own full-length show.


And man, that ComicCon thing just really sunk me further. In fact, just to hear TPTB talk about how "the show is just a show", "he's just an actor on our show", etc actually started to chip away at the credability and mysteique of LOST it's self. Really, I think the show was damaged by the fact that TLE was "in a different world" than the "TV show LOST", and was attacked and acknowledged by people who were a part of the LOST mythology.

Ok, so there's my angry, 3:30 AM rant. I guess, I just really would have loved for TLE to be kept within the same "world" as the LOST story. If everything that happened in TLE was congruent cannon to the story of LOST , it really would have been so much cooler and added even more power to the show.