numbers theory"... to change the numerical value of any of these factors..."

[LostViking]

I have been watching the new orientation video unfold for some time now - and I felt that alvar was, when we could see the full video, going to explain what the numbers meant. I think the latest clip.."If through your research, you manage to change the numerical value of any one of these factors..." is what I have been expecting.

Based on the new orientation video, particulary The fact that Dharma has the mission of basically preventing the end of the world - I would like to propose a new theory relating to the numbers and the entering them.

What if the numbers represent the exact number of years, days, and hours before the world destroys itself AND what if the way Alvar would know if the "one true way was found" would be that the numbers would change. That is to say, the numbers would increase as the dharma folks made headway in saving the world and the numbers would stay the same if they failed.

I think that is why mittlewerk said "we know they failed" The numbers had not changed.

I guess what I am wondering is this - if the antenna originally broadcasted the numbers (prior to Danielle) perhaps it is the entering of the numbers that causes them to be broadcasted off the island in a "special frequency known only to us"

So, because of the magnetic fields on the island, there is no easy way for the world to get messages from the island - except by the radio tower. So the only message they send from the island is these numbers - if I am right (and I am sure I am not the only one thinking of this idea) that the numbers do represent the outcome of the equation - then the only way the world would know if progres has been made is by the numbers changing.

The Dharma guys, with the secret help and unlimited resources of the world, are working on the island to prevent the equation from being correct - or maybe just making the equation predict a longer and longer time.

[LostEmissary]

I postulated on this last week before that new fragment game out.

Their goal is to research in depth the various variables that go into the equation, with the purpose of potentially altering these variables. If certain variables of the equation can be modified, the destruction of mankind can potentially be postponed.

My thinking is that the numbers will tie in somehow to variables that are part of the Valenzetti equation.

Just as a completely over-simplified example, let's pretend the Valenzetti equation is this:

10*E = 10

Where E represents the strength of the Earth's magnetic field. Of course this may not even be a part of the Valenzetti equation, and there are clearly other elements, but for arguments sake we'll use this.

Now we assume that the destruction of manking will come when the equation is balanced... in other words, when the left side of the equation becomes 10, the world will end. Therefore, when the value for E is one, the equation becomes:

10*1 = 10

or

10 = 10

Which would balance the equation, resulting in the end of the world.

I think the DHARMA Initiative is doing research on how to purposefully influence these values (in my example, the value of E), so that the equation will never be balanced. This is essentially what you're saying.

I think it's a little cheesy... the idea that a single equation could predict the end of humanity is pretty far fetched, but oh well.

Obviously this could be all wrong, but I think it's the way that most makes sense based on what we've learned so far from the Hanso Exposed fragments.

[Dagolu]

I was thinking the exact same things.

but I was thinking that the numbers actually mean the constants in the equasion. eg [{(e*4)+(8/c)15}^16(23r)]/42=years left. where
e is the power of the earth's magnetic force
c is the speed of light
r is the number of exact amount of radiation in the earth as of the beginning of humankind.

thats the way I see it.

(btw, that equasion is far too simple to actually be the equasion.)

[LostViking]

I postulated on this last week before that new fragment game out.

My thinking is that the numbers will tie in somehow to variables that are part of the Valenzetti equation.



LostEmissary and Dagolu,

Thanks for responding! Things are soooo quiet down here in the basement of the webmaze! :rolleyez: :rolleyez: :confused: :confused:
:rolleyez:


I think you are both saying the same thing - that the numbers are the variables - not the actual years days and months.

I can't argue too much with that - perhaps the off island folks know the current values of the variables - so any change in them would be a good thing.

But If you think about it 4 8 15 16 23 42... could be seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, and years. But I have no evidence either way. (we will have to see the last 10 clips)


Either way though - I think we all agree that the numbers change as a sign of Dharma's success.

[crt404]

If you go on the assumption that the numbers are the actual minutes, hours, days, weeks, and years, then from 1962, it is 42 years til the plane crashes in 2004.

Maybe the plane crashed because the equation was correct and the world has gone into a nuclear winter?

[LostEmissary]

Maybe the plane crashed because the equation was correct and the world has gone into a nuclear winter?Well, I think we can assume that's not true, since we saw a glimpse of the outside world in the season 2 finale, and Penelope was talking on a phone to some guys at a watch station.

Since the equation is supposed to predict the end of humanity, I don't think we can assume the end of humanity has happened if Penelope is still sleeping soundly in bed and having two guys do research for her.

And from an ARG perspective, it can't be a nuclear winter, as it's set in our actual world, present day, and we're not all dead.

[crt404]

Ok, there are some flaws in my plan!

I'm only just getting my head around the ARG world. I apologise for what I now realise was a stupid suggestion. *hangs head*

[LostEmissary]

Ok, there are some flaws in my plan!

I'm only just getting my head around the ARG world. I apologise for what I now realise was a stupid suggestion. *hangs head*Not at all! What makes a discussion great is the input of many different ideas. There are always ideas that nobody has proposed before that can contribute to many new theories.

Even if a theory has a flaw or two, or even isn't possible for one reason or another, doesn't mean that the theory won't help open other avenues of discussion that weren't considered before.

It always helps to have people share their ideas and thoughts, and nobody should ever be embarrassed if they present something that is in some way unlikely or not possible.

[bigmouth]

dweiss: This comment really caught my eye, too. Taken with TWM's statement that Dharma "failed," the implication would seem to be that Dharma was unable to change any of the Valenzetti's numerical outputs.

But...

In my wilder moments I catch myself wondering: what if the Numbers used to be different? I mean, we see someone start to write the Numbers on a chalkboard in the Sri Lanka film but I don't recall ever seeing them listed in their entirety.

In my revised Catastrophe thread, I discussed the relationship between exponential growth (e.g., in population) and global catastrophe. Notice how closely the Numbers (4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42) come to being an exponential set (e.g., 4, 8, 16, 32, 64). The former looks an awful lot like growth that begins expoentially, slows in the middle, then picks up again at the end. If there were a seventh Number, I could easily see it being 64...

So what if the Numbers once WERE an exponential set? Perhaps Dharma's efforts succeeded in slowing the numerical progression but only temporarily. Maybe this is what TWM meant by Dharma's failure...

[LostViking]

So what if the Numbers once WERE an exponential set? Perhaps Dharma's efforts succeeded in slowing the numerical progression but only temporarily. Maybe this is what TWM meant by Dharma's failure...


Bigmouth - I think we are thinking the same thing! Yes, I think it is possible the numbers could have changed some since the begining.


Now that I think of it.....i wonder if thats why there is the INDUARATION voice on the braodcast of the numbers - and later Daniells message - because it lets you know when there has been a CHANGE!!!! Why else would anyone need to know how long the numbers have been playing - plus the induration measured when danielle changed the recording. Why woukd it be set up that way unless someone expexted the numbers to change...

Am I way off here? This seems like a pretty big thing. I wonder if I could bring it up to GD without getting labeled a webmazer and being sent back to here?

[LostViking]

Ok, there are some flaws in my plan!

I'm only just getting my head around the ARG world. I apologise for what I now realise was a stupid suggestion. *hangs head*


Hi crt404,

I once speculated that a giant mushroom was causing the hallucinations everyone was having.. a giant sentient mushroom.

You are in good company - no need to appologize ;)

[LostViking]

I have a new thought about the numbers - that is best placed here I think.

When we first hear the Danielles Distress call there is a male robotic voice that plays after her message that says "Iteration..."and then a number. Sayid tells us that the induration tells us how many times the message has played....since Danielle changed it.

Now, I have to ask, why would such a system exist unless it was expected that the numbers would CHANGE?.

Obvioulsy there is an automated system that was braodcasting the numbers. Danielle claims she heard it. Lenny heard it. Then Danielle is stranded, she kills her shipmates and finds the radio tower. She changes the message - and now her message plays instead of the numbers and the iteration measures the number of times the new message plays.

Why is there a way to change the message in the first place.

I think the answer is the numbers are not as static as we all thought. I think the design of how this message is braodcasted and the fact that Danielle was able to change it indicates that the numbers can change - and the radio system was desined to not only allow for the change but also to measure it.

It may be that this has been brought up before - but not as an individual post - please let me know if I am mistaken....

[Mysterious Mike]

I am thinking that it was used for legit broadcasting on the island and then something happened , the incident or the downfall of Dharma , and the numbers broadcast was put in. Hurley seems to think the numbers have power so someone could have set it to broadcast these numbers of power as a big FU to the rest of the people on the island or as a way to draw people in.

Anyway intresting idea but as I said I don't think the broadcast tower message was originally intended to broadcast just the numbers

[LostViking]

I am thinking that it was used for legit broadcasting on the island and then something happened , the incident or the downfall of Dharma , and the numbers broadcast was put in.

Hi mysterious mike!

I am not so sure it had another purpose - then again I am not sure it didn't. I suppose there is no evidence either way, since we only have Danielles version.

We know that Lenny and Sam Tooney heard the numbers broadcast a while back. We know that Danielle claimed she heard the numbers 16 years ago and it drew her party to the island.

So - I think it is safe to say that the station broadcast the numbers from the station for the past 16 years. I can't imagine Danielle adding the induration voice to her message, so I think it's logical to conclude the induration was present prior to Danielle's tampering.

We also know that Dharma was and is a functioning entity - Fenry, Ethan and Tome were doing their other acts in the medical Hatch to Claire. Goodwin and the Other's were harvesting the good people. I think, at least on the idlamd, dharma is alive and well. I can't think of any reason why a functioning - but likely cut off group - woukd change the island broadcast to suddenly start broadcasting these mysterious numbers - no, I think the numbers were being broadcast right along, as was the induration. I think that is the purpose of the radio tower - to braodcast a signal from an island that cannout be heard from.

[Mysterious Mike]

I guess am having trouble with what your getting at. To me it only seems logical that Dharma would want a way to communicate on the island whether that is everyone on the island or just the DeGroots and other higher ups who knows. Even if the interation counter was there when Danielle got there that does not mean it has always been there. It could be something as simple as hitting a switch to turn the interation counter on.

I pulled the transcripts for the hell of it.

From Numbers

DANIELLE [lowering her rifle]: Our ship picked up a transmission -- a voice repeating those numbers. We changed course to investigate. After we shipwrecked my team continued to search for the transmission source. It was weeks before we found the radio tower.

HURLEY: There's a radio tower on this island?

DANIELLE: Yes, up by the Black Rock. Some of us continued to search for the meaning of those numbers while we waited for rescue. But then the sickness came. When my team was gone, I went back up to the tower and changed the transmission.

HURLEY: The distress signal we heard?

DANIELLE: Yes.

HURLEY: But the numbers -- did you ever find out anything about them? Do you know where they got their power?

DANIELLE: Power?

HURLEY: They bring bad stuff to everyone around you. They're cursed. You know that, right? The numbers, they're cursed.

DANIELLE: Numbers are what brought me here. As it appears they brought you. Since that time I've lost everything, everyone I cared about. So yes, I suppose you're right. They are cursed.




So Danielle and her team found the tower together and the sickness came when they were trying to find the meaning of the numbers. Your guess is as good as mine as to why the numbers were broadcasting , further more why would they be etched into the side of the hatch ?


From Solitary

SAYID: What is this place? Those batteries -- they wouldn't be able to produce enough power to transmit your distress call all these years.

DANIELLE: I broadcast from somewhere else. But they control it now.




If they control the tower I wonder why they haven't changed the message back ?

[drabauer]

I think it's a great theory dweisspt. It is a little hard for me to picture how they're going to explain this though.

[LostViking]

I think it's a great theory dweisspt. It is a little hard for me to picture how they're going to explain this though.

Hi drabauer!

I hope you are referring to my number theory and not my mushroom theory ;)


As far as explaining the numbers changing...they show Jack the film, then explain how the numbers represent either the amount of time left or that the numbers represent variables of the equation (I still think its the former) - then they tell jack that the world will know if there has been progress made - at preventing world end - by the numbers changing.

Then Hurley says "dude, thats crazy!" and it all seems to make sense.

[Mysterious Mike]

dweisspt I read your numbers theory in the the webmaze forum and it makes more sense now.

I will refer any thoughts to that thread because its a fine line into what some may consider spoiler material. Good Theory though.


-------------------------------------

TV show in this area only please. -H. Noodleman

[hallad69]

I agree with this, but my reasoning goes into webmaze territory, so I'll "spoiler" it for good measure..
I think that the whole idea of Dharma is to try to change the numbers which are the results of the Valenzetti Equation. The various research stations on the island are trying to do this from various angles. When they manage to change one of the numbers, the Equation will be changed, and thus the world will be saved.

[Farmer Ted]

When we first hear the Danielles Distress call there is a male robotic voice that plays after her message that says "Induartion..."and then a number. Sayid tells us that the induration tells us how many times the message has played....since Danielle changed it.


I'm pretty sure that it was saying "iteration." At least that makes more sense to me. Gonna read the last of your post now.

[LostViking]

I'm pretty sure that it was saying "iteration." At least that makes more sense to me. Gonna read the last of your post now.


Oops! Thanks Farmer Ted - I am such a bad speller!

I will go back and fix that :)

[ApuLovesManjula]

I think that is a really interesting theory. My question on the idea about the numbers being a countdown of sorts is this: at what point does the countdown begin? Since the numbers don't appear to have changed, there has to be a starting point for the countdown. That makes me think they may be some components of an equation (I used to teach math till I had a baby :) )

[bigmouth]

dweiss: You may be onto something, but I'm not sure the iterations get you there. I should think such a feature would be built into most automated distress systems so rescuers can get a sense of how long they've been running.

But the very idea of a Number broadcast -- now that carries some interesting implications. Maybe someone was listening for a time when the Numbers did change. Perhaps that was the very purpose of the broadcast in the first place.

PS: I just realized -- the radio tower isn't a distress beacon. Maybe you're onto something after all with this angle!

[island_maverick]

Adding a Spoiler Thread label to the title. This idea looks like it originated in webmaze-T&S.

[NeillT006]

Mav, this is aggravating.

The boy is just talking ideas and tying them to the broadcast show.

No TLE is quoted or otherwise referred to by him.

But since you think that his inspiration is to be found in TLE it has to be spoiler-labeled.

So, let me get this straight.

I read TLE threads.

So now I am presumptively a source of dreaded TLE-spoilers whenever I post?

I am hoping that this is just you running off half cocked and is not a board policy decision, because if it is the latter then we are going to have no end of troubles as time goes on.

If I have to dig it it up I will, but I recall JG saying at one point that there was nothing wrong with posting spoiler driven thoughts as long as no references were made to the spoilers themselves.

JG, I know you have had a birthday recently, but you remember saying this do you not?

Is this no longer the accepted practice?

I apologize for the vent but this is is just too stupid.

N.

[Homer Noodleman]

Guys,

I've made it clear this area is supposed to stay TV-Centric. Dweisspt's original post accomplished that quite nicely. However, it wasn't long that the Maze stuff explicitly had to get dragged in. Tisk, tisk.

I'm removing ST from the thread title because this area is for TV discussion only. A thread veers so far from the show that it needs a ST tagging will get booted out of here. This section of the board is restricted to the show. If you don't like that restriction -- don't waste your time whining -- post elsewhere on the forum where the ST tagging of a thread is allowed.

I'll leave the spoilerish stuff tagged, but ask that NO more if it appear in this thread. Talk about the notions raised in the parent post all you want, but please keep the conversation confined to events that have aired.

[Mysterious Mike]

All I did was reference that dweisspt had a similar concept in a thread in the Web maze without posting any content what so ever. Then preceded to say I wouldn't address it in this forum. How is that a breach of what is allowed without a spoiler tag ? Should I have spoiler tagged this because I said webmaze ?

[NeillT006]

If you don't like that restriction -- don't waste your time whining -- post elsewhere on the forum where the ST tagging of a thread is allowed.


Homer:

Do us all a favor and point out the specific portions of the Site guidelines that you believe have been violated.

I believe this could be educational.

N.

[Homer Noodleman]

Keep this thread on topic please. Complain about moderating in this thread: Summer Moderating Issue (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20986&highlight=summer+%2Cmoderating).

NeillT006... Rule Six from Babblings from the Moderator. (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10951) The thread is stickied at the top of this forum.

[NeillT006]

Oh, I see.

The rules are different here.

N.

[Homer Noodleman]

Yes.

[LostEmissary]

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=946355&postcount=1594


Alvar: "That is the work to which you have committed yourself. Change the core values of the Valenzetti Equation, and you will change the course of destiny"

[JacksGirlfriend]

I'm not sure what sparked the idea and I don't really care as long as the topic at hand references the TV show (which the first post did). When we start dragging supporting evidence in from the webmaze the thread veers off into a totally different direction, which would necessitate the need to move this thread elsewhere. Please confine the topic of the numbers to the show here. If you wish to talk about the numbers with evidence from the webgame (which is certainly allowed), it should be done elsewhere.

[hallad69]

I think that is a really interesting theory. My question on the idea about the numbers being a countdown of sorts is this: at what point does the countdown begin? Since the numbers don't appear to have changed, there has to be a starting point for the countdown. That makes me think they may be some components of an equation (I used to teach math till I had a baby :) )

I have trouble believing that the numbers are a countdown, since changing one of the numbers would not prevent the end of the world, just delay it (or perhaps even hasten it). Having said that (ie keeping my options open) If Alvar's video was made in 1975, you could assume that the Equation was solved somewhere around 1970, give or take. Co-incidentally, 1970 plus 42 years takes you up to 2012, which is when the Mayan calendar ends.
:confused:

I am more tempted to think that the six numbers are the results of 6 separate equations within the bigger Valenzetti Equation. Each sub-equation gives a pretty constant result, which is what the 6 Dharma stations are each working on changing.

[Fierro]

Man, now I don't know if I should post here or elsewhere with all this spoiler tag discussion... Well, I'll just say that I like the idea of the numbers changing and not being static. That would be the only reason (at least for me) to have a radio tower transmiting a voice repeating a set of numbers all the time. That might also explain something else that we've been discussing in one of the first threads i made here, it's called 'how did they know what numbers to enter'. If you remember well, in the swan orientation video Dr. Candle speaks about inputing the CODE, but he NEVER MENTIONS the numbers as we know them NOW 4815162342. What did he expect the button pushers to use as a code then if he is not telling? So they didnt include any numbers in the video because its a changing set of numbers? MOst people agree that they were edited out for some reason. But why would they do that if you need to know what numbers to enter in the computer to save the world???
Now the question is what if the numbers were different A LONG TIME AGO?
Unfortunately I can't say or speculate anymore here or I would cross the line to the dark side... But for anybody interested, go check the Webmaze forums...

[Fierro]

I've always wondered if the Valenzetti equation predicts not only WHEN the world is gonna end, but also HOW it's gonna end...

[hallad69]

I've always wondered if the Valenzetti equation predicts not only WHEN the world is gonna end, but also HOW it's gonna end...

I really wouldn't know. Quadratic equations is about my limit. Algebra was never my strong point.

[bigmouth]

dweiss: But the very idea of a Number broadcast -- now that carries some interesting implications. Maybe someone was listening for a time when the Numbers did change. Perhaps that was the very purpose of the broadcast in the first place.
ETA: Just read JG's post and reread Homer's rules. Apologies, though imo this constraint is increasingly untenable...

[LostViking]

Umm, maybe I shouldn't have tried this here. I was thinking the counting of the messages itself implied that it was meant to change - and nothing more than that. Yes, I starting thinking about the numbers because of TLE - but I felt this post was on-air evidence only. I still do, and I appreciate the chance to discuss on-air stuff with members of the whole board. Sorry to have started an argument. I will try and keep this thread on-topic as well as my time permits.


Back to the original idea.

Bigmouth: I hear what you are saying about counting a distress call - but I don't think it was ever intended to be a distress call. We know it simply broadcast these mystery numbers - at least long enough for sam tooney and Danielle to hear them.

With the evience we have so far, I think the original purpose of the radio broadcast was to read the numbers - Danielle changed that message to make it a distress call - and the interation (thanks FT!) started counting the number of times the changed mesage played.

Maybe I am missing something, but it seems to be a system designed to do just that - record a change in what was being read - then keep playing the new message until someone changes it again.

I have to wonder if the broadcast changed back to the numbers - or changed numbers - if that might be a way to signal to the rest of the world that the game is over - come get us.

[NeillT006]

which would necessitate the need to move this thread elsewhere.

Call the Army Corps of Engineers because we've got ourselves a serious erosion problem going on here.

N.

[LostViking]

Dr. Candle speaks about inputing the CODE, but he NEVER MENTIONS the numbers as we know them NOW 4815162342. What did he expect the button pushers to use as a code then if he is not telling? .


Thank you for your post fierro.

I forgot about the orientation video - you are right it never says the numbers we know - just "the code"

That is interesting, because if they are the same - why not mention them. That might be more evidence that the numbers do in fact change.

[see you in the next life]

By numbers, I assume you mean Valenzetti Equation.....you know, mentioned on the show and in the ARG.


Wait a minutes, two worlds collide.


This does not compute.

Which way do I go which way do I turn?

Meltdown

System failure

System failure

System failure





How absurd this is all getting to be.

[Noav Sigless]

Help my memory out here. When was the Valenzetti Equation mentioned on the show?

[LostViking]

Help my memory out here. When was the Valenzetti Equation mentioned on the show?


I assume he meant on the blast door map

[see you in the next life]

Corrected, I stand.

Not mentioned, but rather shown on the Blast Door Map.

[bigmouth]

I have to wonder if the broadcast changed back to the numbers - or changed numbers - if that might be a way to signal to the rest of the world that the game is over - come get us.
I think that is an excellent speculation. Or maybe, come get us, we've succeeded.

[see you in the next life]

I believe that the original plan was for the broadcast numbers to be changed if, and only if, the Initiative were able to change one or more of the numbers (variables), thus succeeding.


This, however, worries me. If Danielle changed the transmission from the numbers to her psychotic ramblings.......and no one noticed or did anything about it, then what would that say about whether the DHARMA INITIATIVE is still an active, ongoing, project?

[bigmouth]

I believe that the original plan was for the broadcast numbers to be changed if, and only if, the Initiative were able to change one or more of the numbers (variables), thus succeeding.


This, however, worries me. If Danielle changed the transmission from the numbers to her psychotic ramblings.......and no one noticed or did anything about it, then what would that say about whether the DHARMA INITIATIVE is still an active, ongoing, project?
seeyou: I don't believe it is in the sense of being funded by THF. I get the sense that people are being pushed back into service to rectify some past mistake. Think of the original Flash and Green Lantern in the Faster Friends comic. Maybe those who shut down Dharma are being called to account for their error.

[Noav Sigless]

I can't seem to find the words "Valenzetti Equation" on the blast door map. Is it a specific mathematic equation that is on the blast door map?

[NeillT006]

We're a funny species.

We are at our very best when things are at their very worst.

If one wanted to create an environment triggering technological and cultural innovation and modification, conditions posing a significant and seemingly insurmountable threat to continued existence would likely be a good choice.

But you couldn't just manufacture those conditions.

Could you?

N.

[bigmouth]

We're a funny species.

We are at our very best when things are at their very worst.

If one wanted to create an environment triggering technological and cultural innovation and modification, conditions posing a significant and seemingly insurmountable threat to continued existence would likely be a good choice.

But you couldn't just manufacture those conditions.

Could you?

N.
Well, that's the premise of Watchmen. And the Unabomer manifesto. Interesting reads, both.

[NeillT006]

Never read them.

But I am curious about the possibility of a really long con.

N.

[Without Dane]

Yeah, in terms of the most recent webmaze information, I predict an eventual scene where...

-The numbers are being heard through a speaker like the one in the Swan hatch, and after a few repetitions a single number changes... i.e. "1, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42" or some other number...


-This could happen in alot of different ways, and would signal some sort of eventual success regarding DHARMA's mission with the Valenzetti Equation, or it could even be the result of Desmond turning the fail-safe key.


Moderator note: This is not a webmaze discussion. I have added tags. -TPTP

[see you in the next life]

Here ya go Noav Sigless


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/LostWall14.jpg

[John]

...would signal some sort of eventual success regarding DHARMA's mission with the Valenzetti Equation...

What mission is that?

[Richardstone]

What mission is that?


To change the core values of the equation (the numbers) and alter the destiny of mankind...



Moderator note: Added tags for the quote. -TPTP

[John]

Exactly my point. Thanks Richardstone.

I have added tags to conceal the webmaze material.

As has been pointed out, this thread is for TV related discussion ONLY. Further duscussion of Web Maze information will get the thread moved or locked.

[Noav Sigless]

Thank you, syintnl.

[Richardstone]

The numbers/core values appear on the map too...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Richardstone/numbers.jpg

Though it strikes me they are on there as the code rather than the core values, would the button pushers have been aware of the equation?

Maybe at one time, when things ran smoothly and replacements were sent on time...

[bigmouth]

I'm confused.

Valenzetti is mentioned on on the Blast Door Map. Some people speculate it's a reference to an equation with the Numbers as the output. If you doubt that speculation because you think there's insufficient proof, well, that's your prerogative. But unless and until someone justifies the speculation by reference to something outside the four corners of the show, it's fair game. Correct?

PS: Neil, definitely check out Watchmen. About the ultimate long con that begins on a remote South Pacific Island...

[Noav Sigless]

But unless and until someone justifies the speculation by reference to something outside the four corners of the show, it's fair game. Correct?

That's a tough question. Maybe?

[Jeph]

Is the equation bad?
Had a thought after catching up with the latest clips...

Lets assume the result is accurate.
After many unsuccessful attempts at changing the core factors, could the fear of the approaching result be enough to drive some form of radical action in an attempt to save ourselves?
Is it possible, this 'radical action' is what the equation was predicting all along?
Is that why the core factors wouldn't change? The moment the equation starts, we set ourselves up for destruction.
Kinda paradoxical. Only by stopping work on the equation and removing it from existence could we be saved.

Any thoughts?

[Fierro]

Is the equation bad?
Had a thought after catching up with the latest clips...

Lets assume the result is accurate.
After many unsuccessful attempts at changing the core factors, could the fear of the approaching result be enough to drive some form of radical action in an attempt to save ourselves?
Is it possible, this 'radical action' is what the equation was predicting all along?
Is that why the core factors wouldn't change? The moment the equation starts, we set ourselves up for destruction.
Kinda paradoxical. Only by stopping work on the equation and removing it from existence could we be saved.



Any thoughts?


WOW:thumbs_up

[LostEmissary]

Is the equation bad?
Had a thought after catching up with the latest clips...

Lets assume the result is accurate.
After many unsuccessful attempts at changing the core factors, could the fear of the approaching result be enough to drive some form of radical action in an attempt to save ourselves?
Is it possible, this 'radical action' is what the equation was predicting all along?
Is that why the core factors wouldn't change? The moment the equation starts, we set ourselves up for destruction.
Kinda paradoxical. Only by stopping work on the equation and removing it from existence could we be saved.

Any thoughts?I love it! The existance of the equation itself is what leads to our own destruction. Watch this virus they engineered get out of control and destroy all of humanity. Now that's something.

Of course, I don't think the game will end in the destruction of humanity, but nevertheless, very cool theory.

[LostViking]

Is the equation bad?
Had a thought after catching up with the latest clips...




I love it jeph! that would be an awsome ending to the whole saga - the numbers are BAD ;)


Well, I don't know if any of you noticed but the final few clips seem to confirm my theory that the numbers change - and that the radio tower was designed to broadast the numbers -

Alvar: "the transmitter will only broadcast the core numerical values of the Valenzetti Equation"

"That is the work to which you have comitted yourselves. Change the core values of the Valenzetti Equation, and you will change the course of destiny."

And then there was mitttlewerks statement ""And in spite of every effort of the Foundation, we are gripped in the tyranny of those six Numbers."


So it seems still unclear if the numbers represent time left or the variables themsleves. Either way, they can be changed as dharma's work progressed. This seems to support my idea that the iteration count was a purposeful part of the readio transmission. So I now am sure that the numbers change - if Dharma makes progress.

It also seems clear that Dharma is trying to affect real world variables - and effect thm enough that the Valenzetti equation will produe a different result

This makes me wonder at a TPTB comment from a while back that the last number was the most imortant. I still think time is at least one of the numbers - what if its the last one? As in time till we blow up?

In the hanso thread rvturnage made a great speculation today, that I think shoukld be considered further

TA: this is interesting (Hanso's quote numbered by me)...

Zr2ji - "And inspite of every effort of the foundation, we are gripped in the tyranny of those six numbers" (Mittelwerk)

and compared to:

- chocolates - "Whether through
1.)nuclear fire,
2.)chemical (warfare) and
3.)biological warfare,
4.)conventional warfare,
5.)pandemic,
6.)overpopulation.."
(Alvar Hanso)

So, would these be the six variables that were used in the equation? Do the 6 numbers correspond to the answer to 6 "sub equations" that make up the V.E.?

Interesting that there are 6 possible world enders and 6 numbers. I think rvturnage is probably right that there are sub equations for each of these outcomes.

Funny, I would of thought climactic weather shift and meteor strike should have made the top six - but what do I know ;)

[Lab]

Moving to Webmaze T & S and merging with existing thread.

Homer has clearly indicated this is a TV only discussion area and too much webmaze has crept into this thread.

This is a group decision by the staff.

Please continue discussion in Webmaze T & S thread. Thanks.

[LostViking]

This is a group decision by the staff.




No offense to the staff - but I can't quite understand this decision. I was bringing up non-webmaze On-TV subjects for one reason only, to get other opinions about my theory - that the iteration and fact that Danielle could change the recording might indicate the numbers were meant to change. I can't help what other people posted.

By sending that discussion back here eliminates a majority of the board from discussing this. It is impossible for me to believe that I can now post anything in any place other than here without being accused of starting a webmaze comment. And there is not a lot of discussion or viewing here - I think because of where this T&S has been buried - I mean placed.

Mainly, because I viewed a very well produced orientation video that bears a stiking resemblance to the other two videos we have seen, I doubt I can make an un-maze-tainted post again. This video places anyone who views it in a superior position when it comes to theorizing on "what's going on".

[see you in the next life]

dweisspt........................you are preaching to the choir where I am concerned. However, and trust me, I know this for sure, you may as well beat your head against a brick wall. They don't want to know and they won't access the Lost Experience stuff as real until they see Rachel in an episode of Lost or until this Orientation video jumps up and bites them in the *&%. Trust me.

"We don't need a hi-falootin, stinkin webmaze. It shakes us up and we don't like and can't handle anything that messes with our normal sensibilities. All we really want is for Kate and Sawyer to get together.....and ofcourse, to see this new Brazilian Tom Cruise."

[Fierro]

So the only purpose of the radio transmitter on the island was to broadcast the numbers so the outside world (HANSO HEADQUARTERS) will know when Dharma have succeded in changing them, right?
I have a question, though: doesnt this void the whole concept of the island being cloaked by an electromagnetic shield that keeps it INVISIBLE AND UNDETECTABLE to the rest of the world? Doesn't this shield interfere with the transmition? Can't this broadcast be detected by someone else, making it easy to pinpoint the location of the island? Or that's why Hanso mentioned the whole '...in a frequency and encryption only know to us...'?

[Fierro]

I love it jeph! that would be an awsome ending to the whole saga - the numbers are BAD ;)


Well, I don't know if any of you noticed but the final few clips seem to confirm my theory that the numbers change - and that the radio tower was designed to broadast the numbers -




And then there was mitttlewerks statement ""And in spite of every effort of the Foundation, we are gripped in the tyranny of those six Numbers."


So it seems still unclear if the numbers represent time left or the variables themsleves. Either way, they can be changed as dharma's work progressed. This seems to support my idea that the iteration count was a purposeful part of the readio transmission. So I now am sure that the numbers change - if Dharma makes progress.

It also seems clear that Dharma is trying to affect real world variables - and effect thm enough that the Valenzetti equation will produe a different result

This makes me wonder at a TPTB comment from a while back that the last number was the most imortant. I still think time is at least one of the numbers - what if its the last one? As in time till we blow up?

In the hanso thread rvturnage made a great speculation today, that I think shoukld be considered further



Interesting that there are 6 possible world enders and 6 numbers. I think rvturnage is probably right that there are sub equations for each of these outcomes.

Funny, I would of thought climactic weather shift and meteor strike should have made the top six - but what do I know ;)

I believe that the environmental variables they were manipulating are the research fields of the DHARMA Initiative:

Psycology (?)
Parapsycology (?)
Meteorology (global warming, ice age, sudden climate changes, etc)
Zoology (habitat readaptation, genetic manipulation, virus testing)
Electromagnetism (magnetosphere problems, etc)
Utopian Society (eugenics, genetic manipulation, illness-free)


6 stations - 6 numbers

1 number for each station to work on?

Get a new numerical value for that variable and you will have proofed that the future can be changed?

[LostViking]

fierro

I wonder if the to lists are the same?

1.)nuclear fire - possibly could be prevented by electromagnetism
2.)chemical (warfare) stopped by zoology (genetic manipulation)
3.)biological warfare, same?
4.)conventional warfare stopped by psychology.
5.)pandemic, stopped by Zoology
6.)overpopulation.." Utopian societies could stop this

Hard to see how the two relate. I wonder if the list of problems and the list of projects are not meant to match up with each other or the variables.

The equation must quantify world events and statistics in some way. There must be natural and man made factors. Like global temperature, population growth, maybe a measure of the number of bullets or guns ordered. Maybe the method of destruction doesn't matter to the equation - just these factors and the amunt of time before something gets us.

This reminds me of those actuary formulas they use to predict life expectancy - all sortsof yes/no questions and measurements go in - and out pops your personal life expectancy.

Eta: I just saw the final quote "Valenzetti gave numerical values to the core environmental and human factors in his equation, 4 8 15 16 23 and 42..."

So it looks like I was wrong about the numbers representing the time left - but the numbers are supose to change. I am happy to be partially right about anything!

[Fierro]

Check this: (human extinction related)

http://www.nickbostrom.com/existential/risks.html#_ftn6


I wonder if each number is related to the level of risk of the potential hazardous environment that Valenzetti took into consideration when he created this equation. 42 would be the higher one then. What environmental hazard is assigned to it? Electromagnetism? Genetically engineered virus?


I was also thinking that maybe the fact that they couldn't modify any of the variables through their research might mean that the FATE of the world can't be changed. THe world is gonna end the date the Valenzetti equation predicted long time ago.
If true, what's Mittlewerk gonna do to change that?

[LostViking]

Check this: (human extinction related)

http://www.nickbostrom.com/existential/risks.html#_ftn6

I like this one the best:
7.2 Killed by an extraterrestrial civilization

The probability of running into aliens any time soon appears to be very small (see section on evaluating probabilities below, and also [66,67]).

If things go well, however, and we develop into an intergalactic civilization, we may one day in the distant future encounter aliens. If they were hostile and if (for some unknown reason) they had significantly better technology than we will have by then, they may begin the process of conquering us. Alternatively, if they trigger a phase transition of the vacuum through their high-energy physics experiments (see the Bangs section) we may one day face the consequences. Because the spatial extent of our civilization at that stage would likely be very large, the conquest or destruction would take relatively long to complete, making this scenario a whimper rather than a bang.

Good find - makes me wonder if there really is such an equation - or more than one?

[Fierro]

What if, based on Jeph's excellent idea, Dharma's attempt to save the world resulted in THE INCIDENT which triggered what eventually is gonna cause the end of the world?

[rvturnage]

dweisspt, that list of 6 things that Alvar mentioned isn't really valid as the 6 factors of the Equation...a few others are mentioned by Mittlewerk later : poverty and famine. Not to mention biological, nuclear, chemical and conventional war all amount to war. I think the 6 I mentioned were just examples of some of the things that Valenzetti took into account in his work.

Fierro, I really like Jeph's idea as well...I'm not sure the INCIDENT itself is what triggered the end of the world, or the research/steps DHARMA is taking, but either way, the fact that they could cause the catastrophe they are attempting to prevent is really a great thought.

Also, there is a similar equation to Valenzetti...The doomsday argument/equation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Equation

rvt

[bigmouth]

Also, there is a similar equation to Valenzetti...The doomsday argument/equation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Equation
rvt: Awesome cite! I think I remember reading something about this a while back. Reminds me a bit of the guy who uses mathematical forecasting to predict with eery certainty how many weeks any given broadway show will run.

[Fierro]

dweisspt, that list of 6 things that Alvar mentioned isn't really valid as the 6 factors of the Equation...a few others are mentioned by Mittlewerk later : poverty and famine. Not to mention biological, nuclear, chemical and conventional war all amount to war. I think the 6 I mentioned were just examples of some of the things that Valenzetti took into account in his work.

Fierro, I really like Jeph's idea as well...I'm not sure the INCIDENT itself is what triggered the end of the world, or the research/steps DHARMA is taking, but either way, the fact that they could cause the catastrophe they are attempting to prevent is really a great thought.

Also, there is a similar equation to Valenzetti...The doomsday argument/equation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Equation

rvt

dweisspt, that list of 6 things that Alvar mentioned isn't really valid as the 6 factors of the Equation...a few others are mentioned by Mittlewerk later : poverty and famine. Not to mention biological, nuclear, chemical and conventional war all amount to war. I think the 6 I mentioned were just examples of some of the things that Valenzetti took into account in his work.

Fierro, I really like Jeph's idea as well...I'm not sure the INCIDENT itself is what triggered the end of the world, or the research/steps DHARMA is taking, but either way, the fact that they could cause the catastrophe they are attempting to prevent is really a great thought.

Also, there is a similar equation to Valenzetti...The doomsday argument/equation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Equation

rvt


Alvar Hanso says 'Valenzetti gave numerical values to the core environmental and human factors in his equation: 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42', so we can assume each of the numbers corresponds to one of these factors, right? What are these factors? We still don't know, but they are 6 or at least 6 categories...

Anyways, how can The Hanso Foundation be so sure about the accuracy of this equation? Was it tested before on something else? Was it run on a supercomputer as a mathematical model to see what could happen in the future using those core values? Or is it like the mathematical proof of the paranormal gift of premonition?

[LostViking]

Or is it like the mathematical proof of the paranormal gift of premonition?[/I]

I am keeping my fingers crossed on that one. (ahem-improbabaleremoteview - ahem)

I really think that is why they were wanting someobne like walt - because he has remote viewing ability and could help them see forward enough to know how to change the variables - or maybe to know if they even could change the variables.

I will keep my fingers crossed on that one.;)

[3519273540]

Sorry to say, but the idea of an equation that predicts the end of the world is absurd enough.
Even more absurd is the idea of "core values" of an equation, that really doesn't make sense, it's just words.

But the real kicker, is that Dharma was trying to "change" the "core values" in the "equation that predicts the end of the world". An equation, if true, can't be "changed", it is what it is. If Dharma succeded in changing it, then it wasn't true in the first place, so why all the fuss? If the equation is true, nothing can be done.

I like to play along to a point, but this is all too silly for me.

[drabauer]

Three points:

bigmouth - Watchmen has been discussed often on this site, but thanks so much for bringing up the unabomber manifesto. I did read it, and it was quite good in a twisted way - very appropo to something like this; I wouldn't be surprised if Mittelwerk wasn't partially based on Kaczynski.

Jeph - those kinds of tautological plots remind me of 12 monkeys and . . I can't think of the other example (I guess any apparatus of mutually assured destruction, such as depicted in Dr. Strangelove), would serve as an anology). The problem with the fear engendered by the equation bringing about its result would require a lot more information about how the equation was derived, which brings us to . . .

3519273540's point: What the hell does 'core values' mean? Are they constants, coefficients, variables tied to empirical facts, variables based on flate percentages, variables based on stochastic percentages? variables based on hypothetical figures derived through some other means?

I agree that the idea is too silly without greater contextualization.

[Richardstone]

I know it's called The Valenzetti Equation but...

the equation was the end result of a study commissioned by the United Nations
following the Cuban Missile Crisis. With their respective nations having just faced the
very precipice of mutually-assured destruction, the United States and Soviet Union - under
the auspices of the Security Council - secretly sought Valenzetti out as a disinterested
third party and charged him with the creation of an infallible mathematical algorithm for
the prediction of Armageddon.

Which is a very different thing...

And also makes more sense for the reasons 3519273540 described...

:)

[LostEmissary]

I know it's called The Valenzetti Equation but...

the equation was the end result of a study commissioned by the United Nations
following the Cuban Missile Crisis. With their respective nations having just faced the
very precipice of mutually-assured destruction, the United States and Soviet Union - under
the auspices of the Security Council - secretly sought Valenzetti out as a disinterested
third party and charged him with the creation of an infallible mathematical algorithm for
the prediction of Armageddon.

Which is a very different thing...

And also makes more sense for the reasons 3519273540 described...

:)Interesting... so it's more like a computer program perhaps. Who knows - this Valenzetti guy may have been an idealist who just wanted to scare humanity into changing their ways. The algorithm may only purport to predict the end of humanity. This could be why the numbers never seem to change: the algorithm is purposely flawed to always deliver a "death sentence," to force humanity to continually fight against the negative factors in society.

[LostViking]

Who knows - this Valenzetti guy may have been an idealist who just wanted to scare humanity into changing their ways. The algorithm may only purport to predict the end of humanity. This could be why the numbers never seem to change: the algorithm is purposely flawed to always deliver a "death sentence," to force humanity to continually fight against the negative factors in society.

That is an interting thought. I wonder if that is why the dharma seems intersted in precognition and psychics - to see if the end really is where Valenzetti said it was.

But, I have to wonder, wouldn't Valenzetti have to had offered some evidence or even proof that his numbers would work? Maybe he predicted something else that did prove correct. Like a weather event or a war that hadn't happened yet. I would guess the equation is scalable for more than just the end of the whole earth.

[LostViking]

I agree that the idea is too silly without greater contextualization.

I doubt they will let us down in that department

[Fierro]

Sorry to say, but the idea of an equation that predicts the end of the world is absurd enough.
Even more absurd is the idea of "core values" of an equation, that really doesn't make sense, it's just words.

But the real kicker, is that Dharma was trying to "change" the "core values" in the "equation that predicts the end of the world". An equation, if true, can't be "changed", it is what it is. If Dharma succeded in changing it, then it wasn't true in the first place, so why all the fuss? If the equation is true, nothing can be done.

I like to play along to a point, but this is all too silly for me.

They are not trying to change the equation, they are trying to change the result of it (END OF THE WORLD DATE) by modifying its variables.
And first of all, let's not forget that Lost is a Sci Fi show.

I've been thinking a lot about this equation and I've come up with a couple of ideas.

How did they get those core values in the first place?

I believe that they took the 6 more probable end-of-the-world scenarios after the cold war and applied this equation or some kind of subequation to each one of them. We know nothing about how this equation might work or what it looks like (and I doubt we are gonna get anymore info about it). And that's how we get the infamous numbers. Each number relates to the degree of probability the world is gonna end that way. So let's say:
nuclear war = 4
climate change = 8
solar radiation (electromagnetism) = 15
overpopulation = 16
meteor impact = 23
biological warfare = 42

Now they use those values in the main part of the valenzetti equation and they get the date of the end of the world. (remember we are talking science fiction here!)

Anyways, I think the main point they want to make in the show is that the numbers can't be changed because no matter how they manipulate the environmental variables they always get those same numbers, so the date of the end of the world is FIXED. The world is gonna end on that same day they calculated 30 years ago. If you think about it, this goes along with the FATE motif that has always been part of the show. I also believe this could kinda explain Hurley winning the lottery using those numbers. Think that these 6 numbers seal the fate of human race. Hurley heard those numbers from Lenny who heard them being broadcasted by the Radio Tower on the island. Now, what if somehow Hurley's money (won thanks to those numbers) will end up being involved with the way the world will end? Let's suppose whoever is in charge of his money now will invest in some projects or companies that eventually will develop a virus or weapon or something that will cause a mass human extinction ( I personally believe it is virus-related). Perhaps if Hurley had never boarded Flight 815, he wouldn't have invested in those companies... and the world wouldn't end... But he had to go to Australia to find out about THOSE numbers. See what I'm saying? The numbers are cursed after all. It's all about FATE (and chain reaction)
I also believe (like Jeph suggested) that all of Dharma and Hanso's efforts to try to save the world will eventually turn up to be the trigger that will cause a massive human extinction. How's that for irony?
We may have been given a clue to that in the last part of Mittlewerk's speech. What is he about to do?
If you know with absolute certainty that the Human Race is going to be wiped out off the face of the earth on a fixed day, what can you do to avoid it? Nothing? There's only one thing I can think of: start all over again. But for that, you need to SAVE a certain amount of human specimens to assure a fast repopulation rate.
Now, I asked this question a couple of posts earlier: Does the Valenzetti Equation predict not only the When but also the HOW?
If my idea about the numbers representing the level of end-of-the-world probability, whatever armageddon scenario is assigned to number 42 will be the culprit. In my example it was Biological Warfare.
I believe that Mittlewerk is about to try this genetic-engineered virus at a grand scale with the purpose of INMUNIZE the local population against ALL TYPES OF VIRUS. They are trying to create an UNIVERSAL 'INTELLIGENT' VACCINE. What they don't expect is that this supervirus is going to get out of control and cause exactly what they were trying to avoid: THE END OF THE WORLD.

It's all about fate... and irony...

[Without Dane]

Awesome ideas. The numbers representing probability would be very clever.

[Fierro]

this guy at the fuselage has an amazing theory about the Swan Station perfectly combined with what we already know about the Valenzetti Equation. Check it out:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1158431&postcount=57

[Fierro]

check this site: The Earth Simulator
http://www.es.jamstec.go.jp/esc/research/Holistic/index.en.html

[Fierro]

Following this guy's idea...

Now I have a doubt: is the electromagnetism part of the island itself (and DHARMA built a supercomputer taking advantage of it) or is this electromagnetism a by-product of this supercomputer?

Check this quote from this site:

'Ferromagnetism is an interaction of quadrillions of atomic magnets that behave in very complex ways. In fact, ferromagnetic interactions in a crystal could be considered to be a kind of computer, called a cellular automata machine. A ferromagnetic crystal can be considered a massively parrallel cellular automata supercomputer. Could such a computer organize thermal fluctuation energy into useful high grade energy ? I believe it can under some very special conditions. I think it is very possible that 123 years ago Wesley Gary discovered a phenomena, that although of very small scale at first, could be of immense importance to the future of energy generation !'

http://www.avonhistory.org/church/gary.htm

[Richardstone]

Following this guy's idea...

Now I have a doubt: is the electromagnetism part of the island itself (and DHARMA built a supercomputer taking advantage of it) or is this electromagnetism a by-product of this supercomputer?

It's part of the island itself, geologically unique...

CANDLE: Station 3 was originally constructed as a laboratory where scientists could work to understand the unique electromagnetic fluctuations emanating from this sector of the island

KELVIN: Electromagnetism, geologically unique. The incident... there was a leak. So now the charge builds up and every time we push the button it discharges it before it gets too big.

Still, what they did to it or with it that affects The Valenzetti Algortihm (Equation)...

I wonder what leaked?

[Fierro]

According to arnezami's theory the Swatch is home to a supercomputer whose sole purpose is to create an end-of-the-world mathematical model based on the 6 variables inputed in the terminal. Everytime they thought they had got a change in one of the core values, they had to test the new sequence before broadcast it to Hanso. If the symbols at the end of the 108 minutes computing time (it takes a few hours to calculate 33 Pi million digits on a regular home PC computer) was DEATH, it meant the new sequence was invalid. It seems that they never get the ALIVE symbols. After the incident, the computer got messed up and the only way to keep it working was to keep entering those numbers to get it on a loop, perhaps hoping it could be repaired.
Now ( and I think dweisspt is gonna like this) could it be possible that DHARMA was using 'special people' as a CPU? Maybe somehow, these supernatural gifted people were overstimulated by this natural ultra high electromagnetic field of the island to work as a HUMAN BRAIN-WAVE SUPERCOMPUTER. This could explain the whole kidnapping selected people thing and of course Walt.
That could also explain why Henry wanted them to stop pushing the button. They don't need that computer anymore since its broken. BUt they do need all the electromagnetic energy being used by it.
My believe is that they do have another computer somewhere else and they are gonna use it with the people they kidnapped.
But why Jack, Kate and Sawyer? Have they ever shown signs of supernatural powers?
Here is where I'm gonna resort to my own Original Plan Theory basis. I believe that all this people have something inside of them that make them suitable for this machine. Could they have been prepared even before being born to be used as Human CPU's? Microchip implants? DNA manipulation? That's why they put all this people on Flight 815. THey needed them to run the new supercomputer.

[NeillT006]

Over at the Fuselage poster ApolloBar has discovered a mathematical interrelation between the core values, a goal which many have attempted but have failed to achieve.

Valenzetti Equation Cracked (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/forumdisplay.php?f=89)

I see importance in that finding to this thread. What it suggests to me is that the tweaking of one core value may have a necessary consequence for one or more of the other core values.

If the nature of the interrelatedness of the core values is not understood by our stalwart world savers they could find them selves standing around scratching their collective heads asking "why in the hell, when we do this, does this happen?" And of course, it leaves the door open for the result that the collective consequence of a tweak of one value, beyond being unexpected, may not beneficial, and could actually be not so good.

Of course, without having a grasp of the interrelatedness going in, things would be sort of trial and error. This would put a premium on observation, and only by close observation would the engineers be able to understand the true consequences of their actions.

This resonates, by the way, with an earlier of line of thought in Tweaking God's Knobs (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7686&highlight=Tweaking+God%27s)

N.

[Fierro]

I think that correlation is irrelevant to the show. It may explain why the TPTB CHOSE those specific numbers, though

[NeillT006]

I guess if they elect to be shallow and pedestrian, that could be the case.

I continue to hope for more.

N.

[Fierro]

After been reading a couple of other threads, I believe that I may be wrong about my idea of Mittlewerk developing a supervirus-vaccine to save a certain amount of people to start Human Race all over again after the Apocalypse predicted by the VE. The idea posted at some other threads about Mittlewerk testing a genetic engineered virus on a local population to reach an EXACT 30% mortality rate to, later on, try it on the whole world population to reach the same exact rate makes a lot of sense.
If you cant change any of the 6 variables by manipulating the environment through science research, what else can you do? If one of those factors is overpopulation (which I believe it is), after trying to change all the rest without success, doesnt it make sense to alter that very variable in a more 'direct way'?
Killing 30% of the world population would definately have a dramatic impact in the output of the VE. The world won't reach the overpopulation level predicted by this equation triggering the chain reaction that eventually would cause the human race to extinct on the predicted day.
So, at least for Mittlewerk, killing almost 2 billion people to save more that 4 billion is the only way to go. What would you do?

[NeillT006]

Explore genetic manipulation of fertility rates.

N.

[Fierro]

are you suggesting that Mittlework doesnt want to kill 30% of world population but turning them sterile?

mmmm...

[NeillT006]

I don't know about him.

But you asked me what I would do.

N.

[Fierro]

well, it would all depend on how close we are to that apocalyptic day.

[NeillT006]

well, it would all depend on how close we are to that apocalyptic day.

About 10 years to reduce population by 1 billion assuming - 0 - births.

N.

[Fierro]

All this morality discussion reminds me of the novel The Dead Zone (the book). If I remember correctly the main character has the power of premonition by touching people. In one occasion, this person touches a man who was gonna be the next president of The United States. In his vision, he saw that this man was gonna be responsible for the death of millions of people, so he decided to kill him himself to change the course of the future. In the book he also makes the next question:
If you could go back in time and meet Hitler, would you kill him?

[Fierro]

About 10 years to reduce population by 1 billion assuming - 0 - births.

N.

Well, I agree that it would be a much better solution; but for a TV show, the idea of killing millions of people to save more millions is much more dramatic.
The way I see it is that Overpopulation was never the variable with the highest score, but after decades of failed attempts of trying to get new core values, they realized that the only way to modify the original sequence is by manipulating the only variable that can be changed by taking a 'radical action': overpopulation.
I also believe they are running out of time. The end of the world is really close. It's already too late to try any other approach (like modifying fertility rates through genetics), so for the Hanso Foundation, selective genocide is the only possible way.

[3519273540]

It is utterly trivial to find a "mathematical interrelation" between the numbers, since the concept "mathematical interrelation" is not clearly defined.

[Without Dane]

Well, I agree that it would be a much better solution; but for a TV show, the idea of killing millions of people to save more millions is much more dramatic.
The way I see it is that Overpopulation was never the variable with the highest score, but after decades of failed attempts of trying to get new core values, they realized that the only way to modify the original sequence is by manipulating the only variable that can be changed by taking a 'radical action': overpopulation.
I also believe they are running out of time. The end of the world is really close. It's already too late to try any other approach (like modifying fertility rates through genetics), so for the Hanso Foundation, selective genocide is the only possible way.

I think this is an awesome thought. I couldn't agree more.

[NeillT006]

It is utterly trivial to find a "mathematical interrelation" between the numbers, since the concept "mathematical interrelation" is not clearly defined.

It seems to me that, in the context of LOST, the search for connections and interrelations is always appropriate.

N.

[Fierro]

Something I still don't get from the Dharma Orientation video is that Hanso said the radio tower would transmit the numbers using a special frequency and encryption, right? But the numbers Lenny and Danielle heard around 16 years ago are still 4 8 15 16 23 42. Does this mean that they are encrypted somehow? If so, what are the REAL numbers, then?

What happened to lacenare's post?

[Richardstone]

Something I still don't get from the Dharma Orientation video is that Hanso said the radio tower would transmit the numbers using a special frequency and encryption, right? But the numbers Lenny and Danielle heard around 16 years ago are still 4 8 15 16 23 42. Does this mean that they are encrypted somehow? If so, what are the REAL numbers, then?

What happened to lacenare's post?

How do you mean the real numbers?

I just thought he meant the signal was scrambled and coded...

Lenny and Sam worked at a naval listening post and may have been skilled enough to break the code, I know that Sam's wife says it came through the static but maybe it was Lenny and Sam's job to find the frequency and break that encryption, I imagine they gave the numbers to their superiors but could'nt help but wonder what they were? They stuck, 4 8 15 16 23 42, and then one day Sam used them, he opened the box...

There's more than a military feel to Danielle's team too, I think Brennan was military, maybe even Danielle herself, she's pretty handy with the weapons, survival skills and booby traps...

[Fierro]

by real numbers I meant that maybe they were not base 10. That's all. Inspired by a post Lacenare did but I supposed he deleted inmmediatly.
And I guess you might be just right about Lenny and Sam cracking the encryption even when Hanso said it was only known to them...

[Fierro]

It's interesting that in the movie Mercury Rising a savant boy cracks an uncrackable code created by the CIA or something, and Lenny shows a lot of symptoms of being an autistic savant.

[LostViking]

Fierro,

I don't think the numbers were coded - just braodcast on a special frequency and encription known only to Hanso - I think lenny and Danielle could have heard the broadcast using a shortwave radio with some type of encription built in.

What is odd is the planes transponder was able to hear this broadcast without special equipment. (we have to assume danielle's new message did not alter the frequency or encription) - Makes me wonder if Oceanic was a Hanso division. Or at least outfitted by Hanso Industries.

I have been thinking a lot about your posts, Fierro, and the numbers and the stations. I posted this in the GD thread as well...

I think each station represents different ways of preventing the end of the world. For example, I think the zoology station was researching how to prevent extintion of polar bears in the event of a climatic shift. I think the medical hatch was exploring ways to use viruses to prevent overpopulation - and probably ways to lower peoples risks of dying from a biological/chemical attack (changing people DNA using viruses. I think the numbers being 6 and the hatches being 6 might be a coincidence.



I think the numbers are just variable for the equation. Like the other "doomsday" calculations that were posted here.

I also think it is highly probable that Valanzetti had to prove his equation by predicted other things with his equation. Why else would everyone put so much stock in it?

Rember the Hanso Website and the mathmatical Initiative? Did't it say it was helping end famine by predicting the weather? I bet this equation can predict more than just the end of the world.

Maybe it can predict plane crashes....hmmmmmm! :)

[Fierro]

Fierro,

I don't think the numbers were coded - just braodcast on a special frequency and encription known only to Hanso - I think lenny and Danielle could have heard the broadcast using a shortwave radio with some type of encription built in.

What is odd is the planes transponder was able to hear this broadcast without special equipment. (we have to assume danielle's new message did not alter the frequency or encription) - Makes me wonder if Oceanic was a Hanso division. Or at least outfitted by Hanso Industries.

I have been thinking a lot about your posts, Fierro, and the numbers and the stations. I posted this in the GD thread as well...



I think the numbers are just variable for the equation. Like the other "doomsday" calculations that were posted here.

I also think it is highly probable that Valanzetti had to prove his equation by predicted other things with his equation. Why else would everyone put so much stock in it?

Rember the Hanso Website and the mathmatical Initiative? Did't it say it was helping end famine by predicting the weather? I bet this equation can predict more than just the end of the world.

Maybe it can predict plane crashes....hmmmmmm! :)

Hey Dweisspt. I totally agree about what you said about the purpose of the stations. Regarding how to test this equation, I made a thread about it (which unfortunatley is not getting any replies:( ). But basically I believe what a guy posted over at the fuselage. There was a supercomputer at the hatch that created a simulation of the end of the world scenario based on the variables entered in such computer.
I also speculated that this computer may have been using the power of a network of human brains to calculate this equation by taking advantage of the unique electromagnetic properties of the island.

[Lost_RuNNeR]

What if Hanso itself created the major crisis predicted by the Numbers?
The sickness.

[Fierro]

That's what I think. But I'm not sure if it is the same sickness that's supposed to be on the island, though.

[bigmouth]

Here's a thought that relates to this theory. We know the numbers are supposed to represent the core factors of the Valenzetti Equation. We also know the Valenzetti can be expressed using hieroglyphics.

So what if the countdown time hieroglyphics are somehow tied to the Valenzetti? Perhaps that's how Dharma was originally supposed to know if and when they had affected the core factors.

One problem is that there are six Numbers but only five hieroglyphs. Perhaps, however, the sixth factor is a function of the first five much like the meaning "underworld" is a function of the five symbols that make it up.

[island_maverick]

So what if the countdown time hieroglyphics are somehow tied to the Valenzetti? Perhaps that's how Dharma was originally supposed to know if and when they had affected the core factors. Would the hieroglyphs appear in a rearranged order, depending upon the latest status of the core values?

[bigmouth]

Would the hieroglyphs appear in a rearranged order, depending upon the latest status of the core values?
mav: Good question -- for which I have no answer. I wonder, would rearranging the symbols change their meaning (i.e., from "underworld" to something else)?

[island_maverick]

It would be interesting to seek out an expert on hieroglyph interpretation. Even if it is made up, one could guess at how a language based on symbols would have the adaptability to afflict a different phrase or meaning from merely 5 or 6 symbols, simply by rearranging their order.

Perhaps the order would be like a combination. If the work of each hatch is judged on the success of its latest work, maybe the symbols represent a yes or no per hatch. Only when all/some/one are dipoled correctly, would the message laid out by the order of the symbols appear to mean anything.

[littlelabrynth]

Here's a thought that relates to this theory. We know the numbers are supposed to represent the core factors of the Valenzetti Equation. We also know the Valenzetti can be expressed using hieroglyphics.

So what if the countdown time hieroglyphics are somehow tied to the Valenzetti? Perhaps that's how Dharma was originally supposed to know if and when they had affected the core factors.

One problem is that there are six Numbers but only five hieroglyphs. Perhaps, however, the sixth factor is a function of the first five much like the meaning "underworld" is a function of the five symbols that make it up.

Actually, there are at least 6 heiroglyphics. In addition to the five we saw when the countdown timer ran out, there is a sixth one that was not locked in. Possibly even a seventh. I took this image from Lostpedia.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/littlelabrynth/CounterZeroHieroglyphic2.jpg



Dr. Armand Zander also confirms the possiblity of 6 heiroglyphics when he meets with Rachel. (transcript) (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=773467&postcount=936)

R: What kind of equation is this?
Z: It's like nothing I've seen...there are these...symbols...I asked one of the mathematicians, and he said that they were... representational-
R: Representational of what?
Z: I've always thought they looked like... Egyptian heiroglyphics...there are five, maybe six of them in there, and, uhhit's a vulture, a staff, a-

[bigmouth]

Actually, there are at least 6 heiroglyphics. In addition to the five we saw when the countdown timer ran out, there is a sixth one that was not locked in. Possibly even a seventh.
littlelab: Good point but I meant the timer has only five places for symbols. If they're supposed to correspond with the core factors, you'd think there would be six places -- unless you count the overall meaning as the sixth.

[Fierro]

littlelab: Good point but I meant the timer has only five places for symbols. If they're supposed to correspond with the core factors, you'd think there would be six places -- unless you count the overall meaning as the sixth.


108=DEATH

any other number=LIFE?

[bigmouth]

108=DEATH

any other number=LIFE?
fierro: Nice! Though, 108 is actually a seventh number. For the scheme I'm proposing to work, the first five Numbers must somehow change the sixth (i.e., 42) which corresponds with the overall meaning of "underworld." Still, I love the notion that changing one of the values changes the meaning to "life"!

My speculation would work a lot better if there were six places on the timer...

[Fierro]

The fact that there are more symbols we haven't seen on the timer means that when they built that timer they knew they could get another 'word' at the end of the countdown. If 4815162342 means the end of the world, the output word is always gonna be DEATH. I believe they used egyptian symbols because they are also part of the VE. Maybe the calculations being done by these autistic savants arrange these symbols into words depending on the possible results. They might have got a little bit freaked out when they found out that 4815162342 formed the word DEATH.
This leads me to think that the real origin of the VE may be related to ancient civilizations which would explain the 4-toed Foot. Could a massive exodus of egyptians have reached the island a long time ago fearing an imminent apocalypse predicted by this primitive equation?
Not a very long time ago, I was almost sure that in this new season, we were gonna see a huge pyramid lying right there where the blast door map shows the question mark, wouldn't it be cool?
I also believe that this equation doesn't really predict the 'end-of-world', but the disappearance of the human race as a modern civilization. (although I believe we all agree with that). It has happened to lots and lots of ancient civilizations. Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, China, Mayans, etc. They all got extinct in order for new civilizations to rise. Maybe if we could apply the VE to each of this civilizations, we would get a different sequence of core numbers for each. 4815162342 is intrinsically tied to the demise of modern civilization.

So could all this mean we are gonna witness the rise of a new and better civilization, a necessary evolution process just like Bigmouth suggests in his Extinction or Evolution thread, or this is it? No more Human beings after we reach the VE deadine?





Check this sites:

Egyptians in Australia?
http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=paranormal&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.crystalinks.com%2Fegyptaustral ia.html

Egyptians in the Grand Canyon?
http://paranormal.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=paranormal&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rense.com%2Fgeneral6%2Fegy.htm

[littlelabrynth]

Check out this thread by lacenaire:
THeory - Egyptian Escathology - Mythology - Amenti (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7489&highlight=egyptian)



It contains some really interesting information.

[bigmouth]

Check out this thread by lacenaire:
THeory - Egyptian Escathology - Mythology - Amenti (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7489&highlight=egyptian)

It contains some really interesting information.
Agreed -- one of my all-time favorites.

[Without Dane]

Hey, I may have missed something (I also agree with this idea though) but how do we know that there were symbols we missed on the timer??

[truffula]

Hey, I may have missed something (I also agree with this idea though) but how do we know that there were symbols we missed on the timer??
I took over 200 screenshots frame by frame of the heiroglyphs locking into place, trust me, there are several symbols that didn't lock in....I would post caps now, but I'm out the door to work. I'll try to remember to post them after if someone else hasn't already. :)

[Fierro]

It would be interesting to see what egyptian hieroglyphs we need to make the word 'alive' or 'life' or 'to live' or 'upperworld', and if those symbols appear in your screenshots. Sounds like a lot of work! Who wants to start?:)

[truffula]

Here are some caps of the different heiroglyphs that didn't lock into place.

Starting with all 5 symbols locked in place:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/heiroglyphs1.jpg

Here are some of the other ones (from "One of Them") that we didn't see lock into place:

A running man?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/timer371.jpg

the bottom of him got cut off in the above shot, here is the lower panel:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/timer221.jpg


Here it looks like the first symbol (the staff) is also in the second slot from the left:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/timer731.jpg

And this time it looks like a slightly different version of the 3rd panel from the left (the flame):

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/timer881.jpg


And here is the running man in the first slot on the left as well

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/timer1611.jpg


This begs many questions.

Why the different symbols?

What do these additional heiroglyphs mean?

We know that D.H.A.R.M.A. is attempting to change the numerical values assigned to the core human and environmental factors of the Valenzetti Equation, now are these symbols their prediction of what it might look like if successfully changed? So if they changed one of the Numbers somehow, a different heiroglyph pattern would come up?

I would say that only 4 8 15 16 23 and 42 can be entered into the Swan computer, but we've seen Michael have full blown conversations with Walt on it, so we know it can accept other data besides the Numbers.
Desmond and Kelvin really have no clue what the Numbers mean, nor the true purpose of D.H.A.R.M.A. (ie - they haven't seen Alvar's film, they're more like test subjects). They're going on the word of Dr. Marvin Candle, who says only the code can be input, nothing about how it might be changed.

A random thought...perhaps the Swan station wasn't set up to directly change one of the Numbers, they just applied them after the incident to control what could be a world ending electromagnetic burst....

I promised myself I wasn't gonna ramble, and now I've gone and rambled :p I hope the caps are helpful. :)

[Richardstone]

Would it make sense to have seven symbols? One for each number and one for the total?

Dr. Zander said there were five or six symbols when he talked to Rachel...

It's interesting that there were potentially different combinations, and thus different words that could have been displayed beofre the clock got smooshed by the magnet...

[Richardstone]

I'm having one of those "Did I just say something really dumb and kill the thread?" moments...

Were there loads of other symbols on the clock Truff?

:confused:

[truffula]

I'm having one of those "Did I just say something really dumb and kill the thread?" moments...

Were there loads of other symbols on the clock Truff?

:confused:
Its hard to say. Aside from the 5 that lock into place, I'm certain there is the "running man" glyph, making 6 different ones.
Now I can go back again and try to play around with my caps to see if I can get more out of it. The problem I was having is that alot of potential different glyphs were either way too dark, too blurry, or only half of the panel was shown.

That, and my head starts to spin when I try to tie it all together - Valenzetti, the Numbers, the Swan, the code, the heiroglyphs, the EMP....
I am workin on a theory, but like I just said, its a jumbled mess of notes now, nothing really fleshed out.

[nastyned]

Let me see if I understand: part of the core plot of Lost is that there is an equation ( the "core values" of which are 4, 8, 15, 16, 23 and 42) that predicts the end of the world and researchers on the island are trying to change the equation?

It will be pretty sad if this is qhat Lost is all about. I like the post above that explains it this way:

"Sorry to say, but the idea of an equation that predicts the end of the world is absurd enough.
Even more absurd is the idea of "core values" of an equation, that really doesn't make sense, it's just words.

But the real kicker, is that Dharma was trying to "change" the "core values" in the "equation that predicts the end of the world". An equation, if true, can't be "changed", it is what it is. If Dharma succeded in changing it, then it wasn't true in the first place, so why all the fuss? If the equation is true, nothing can be done.

I like to play along to a point, but this is all too silly for me."

[littlelabrynth]

Here is an image of the only two symbols that I am aware of that did not lock in place.

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7913/counterzerohieroglyphic3na2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



The first heiroglyph, the one that truffula refers to as the "running man" is shown in more than one slot. Lostpedia (http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Hieroglyphics) says this heiroglyphic may stand for "child,"--or--according to this source (http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/determin.gif), the translation is "eat, drink, speak, think, feel".

The lower heiroglyph is "knife". I do not know if it appeared in more than one slot.


Does this seem right truff? Does anyone have any screen caps of the "knife" in any other slots?

[aggiesean]

But the real kicker, is that Dharma was trying to "change" the "core values" in the "equation that predicts the end of the world". An equation, if true, can't be "changed", it is what it is. If Dharma succeded in changing it, then it wasn't true in the first place, so why all the fuss? If the equation is true, nothing can be done.
I was going to wait to comment on this (I have another VE theory that will hopefully be ready to post in a few days), but I thought this should be clarified. True, equations that deal with the present cannot (in most cases) be changed. Force will always equal mass times acceleration, etc.

However, this isn't true about equations which model the future, which is what the Valenzetti Equation appears to be. Numerical forecast models must be re-run continuously as new data comes in due to the assimilation assumptions that must be made with the old raw data to make the models work.

In a possible single-equation corollary (the backbone of my upcoming theory--stay tuned! :) ), the Hubbert equation for oil production uses a term representing the total obtainable oil capacity of the Earth. When it was first run in the 1950s, this value was much lower than what is considered to be the total capacity today. Hence, the equation has changed. We may be looking at something similar with the Valenzetti Equation.

:Cowdance:

[bigmouth]

aggie: I agree -- well said. Another analogy would be Scrooge's famous plea to the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come. After being shown a series of successively more depressing visions of his future, and right before he gazes upon a grave that will turn out to be his own, Scrooge asks: "Are these the shadows of things that must be, or are they the shadows of things that MIGHT be?" Is this stuff all written in stone, or do we liberate ourselves from fate through foreknowledge? And if it's the latter, how much freedom can we reasonably expect to attain?

[truffula]

Here is an image of the only two symbols that I am aware of that did not lock in place.

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/7913/counterzerohieroglyphic3na2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



The first heiroglyph, the one that truffula refers to as the "running man" is shown in more than one slot. Lostpedia (http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Hieroglyphics) says this heiroglyphic may stand for "child,"--or--according to this source (http://www.jimloy.com/hiero/determin.gif), the translation is "eat, drink, speak, think, feel".

The lower heiroglyph is "knife". I do not know if it appeared in more than one slot.


Does this seem right truff? Does anyone have any screen caps of the "knife" in any other slots?
I went back and reexamined all of my frame by frame caps, and also read through the old "Hatch-clock-hits-000:00 - Symbols Thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14770&highlight=heiroglyphs)".
Very interesting stuff.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v718/ChanceGardener/Twosymbols.jpg

From what I have found from the link to these symbols at the top of this thread, these two symbols stand for Prosperity (the candle or pillar or flame) and Health (the bobby pin or crook). I think if that were the case, it might put a slightly different spin on things.

It may behoove everyone to consider that they aren't conveying alphabetic information but symbological information. Images meant to define a gestalt concept perhaps, or as shorthand script for those in the know with the Hanso Foundation and the Dharma Initiative

Chance was dead on and this was back in Feb. :)

I also found an early cap I made of an additional symbol - The Goblet:

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2283/etimer27ne.jpg

And here are some of the others that I made just now:

The Goblet again -

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/differentsymbol2-goblet.jpg

Here is the lower panel of a symbol I can't identify (could be the bottom of the blade??)

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/differentsymbol3.jpg
Panel 2 and Panel 5

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/differentsymbol4.jpg
Panel 4

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/differentsymbol8.jpg
Panel 2 and Panel 5 again

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/differentsymbol11.jpg
Panel 1 and Panel 2


Now it also appears that at some parts, the symbols line up with each other. Let me show you what I mean....

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/differentsymbol-pattern1.jpg
Note that Panel 1 and Panel 3 are almost identical (bird top, man bottom)

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/differentsymbol-pattern2.jpg
Again Panel 1 and Panel 3, this time with the Arrow on the bottom of each

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/differentsymbol9.jpg
Panel 1 and Panel 2 (goblet top, staff bottom)


That's all I have for now. :)
Enjoy! :p

Peace,
Truff

[Richardstone]

I know it's called The Valenzetti Equation but it is in fact an algorithm...

With their respective nations having just faced the very precipice of mutually-assured destruction, the United States and Soviet Union - under the auspices of the Security Council - secretly sought Valenzetti out as a disinterested third party and charged him with the creation of an infallible mathematical algorithm for the prediction of Armageddon.

The Valenzetti Equation just sounds better...

:)

[nastyned]

The theory that you can determine mathematically when the world is going to end seems absurd to me. At most it would be a prediction based on available data, not an equation or algorithim. Humans cannot accurately predict the weather more than a week or so in advance. The amount of data and time frame involved in predicting the end of the world would be unfathomable.

[Richardstone]

So would a floating cloud of sentient black smoke, but, there it was...

[hallad69]

The theory that you can determine mathematically when the world is going to end seems absurd to me. At most it would be a prediction based on available data, not an equation or algorithim. Humans cannot accurately predict the weather more than a week or so in advance. The amount of data and time frame involved in predicting the end of the world would be unfathomable.

You might like to read Aggie's new thread. It's very interesting. It looks at the equation not as a way to find out when the Earth will blow up in a "Death-Star" style-e, however it predicts the lifespan of the human race, which if you think about it, shouldn't really be that hard to do. If you plug in the genetic factors, average mortality rates, environmental factors, agressive tendencies and suchlike, you might get a result which says something like - "the human race has a lifespan of about 108 Billion people". Which would be bad if to date, about 106 Billion people have lived.

I understand that there are indeed equations which predict population growth. Put a zero on the right hand side of the equation, work backwards, and hey presto, one Valenzetti Equation.

[LostViking]

Hi, sorry I have been too busy to post here. I am glad to see this thread is still getting some attention.

I really like the thought that there are other symbols that spell out different results.


Here is my lame attempt to tie this in to my theories original premise:

So we have a radio system - and a hatch system that both seem to allow for the possiblity that the numbers can change. The radio system counts down the number of times a changed message plays and there is some way to actually change the numbers - as Danielle demonstrated.

And in the Hatch, there appears to be a primitve variable entering system that spells out "Doom" when our familiar numbers are entered - but has other symbols built in to the system that obviously spell out other things.

Here is something else, we know in the other hatch that Locke and Eko found, there was a printout showing the time and the numbers that were entered - why show what numbers where entered unless you wanted another record of when they would change?? there is no reason to record static numbers.

I know a lot of this is obvious to you webmaze folks - but the main board will be surprised by this "evidence". I really think there is a lot of in show evidence that this webmaze stuff really is about the show.

As an aside, I still wonder if Locke's Hatch is the only place where the "numbers" can be entered. Perhaps the hatch computers that calculate the equation are in Locke's orginal hatch, but the other computers are hooked into the island intranet and can also enter the numbers.


I guess we now know why Fenry knew what the numbers were - and was willing to enter them if Locke couldn't. Or do we? Maybe Fenry entered one variable(number) differently based on their ongoing work - and that spurred the blacklight????

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[bigmouth]

Here is something else, we know in the other hatch that Locke and Eko found, there was a printout showing the time and the numbers that were entered - why show what numbers where entered unless you wanted another record of when they would change?? there is no reason to record static numbers.
dweiss: Now that is odd, especially since the numbers would only change on the printout if someone entered them differently, no? Makes me wish someone had tried to enter different numbers at least once...

[hallad69]

I guess we now know why Fenry knew what the numbers were - and was willing to enter them if Locke couldn't. Or do we? Maybe Fenry entered one variable(number) differently based on their ongoing work - and that spurred the blacklight????


This info should appear on the print-out in the "?" shouldn't it ?

[LostViking]

This info should appear on the print-out in the "?" shouldn't it ?

Yes hallad69, I think it should be. But didn't Desmond just look back at the time he did not press the button? I don't think he looked at all of the reccord.

[hallad69]

Are there any screen shots of the printout before they ripped it off the printer ?

[Danakin]

I have a bit of spare time at the moment and actually want to make a speculation/theory about the numbers. It's a very simple theory, but I will flesh it out a bit.

People ask 'what is the meaning of the numbers?' and one might say the answer to that is obvious, anyone knows what the numbers 4,8,15,16,23,42 *mean* (even if you can't write it down on paper, you know it intuitively). Of course, what they are *really* asking is, 'what is the significance of the numbers to the plot of Lost?', they just didn't phrase it very accurately.

I reckon that the numbers were arbitrarily selected by the writers - by that I mean they could have been any numbers. They might as well have put pieces of paper marked 1 to 50 into a hat and chosen 6 at random, or just picked their 6 favourite numbers.

It certainly appears that if they were selected for a reason, it would be the selection of a list of symbols (symbolic), rather than the numbers they represent (mathematical). Roughly speaking, any 'interesting' arithmetical property which a set of numbers can share tends to be distributed evenly over the numbers - the appearance of 15 and 16 rules this out. You could of course have a polynomial of degree 7 going through those points, but that's not really 'interesting'.

I reckon that, when Lost is finished, you could spend ages going back through the entire plot, and replace the instances where 4,8,15,16,23,42 come up with 7,9,17,20,34,48 (and of course replace 108 with 135) and nothing else would change - no explanations, no events, no nothing. I reckon that the answer to the question 'what is the significance of these particular numbers to the plot of Lost?' is that there is no significance, no explanation, beyond that they were arbitrarily chosen by the writers to be uttered, written down, and typed into a computer, and so on, by characters in the show.

'The numbers' could as well have been any old numbers - that is my theory in a sentence.

If you only read one sentence of this post apart from this one, make it the one before this one.

[etta]

I reckon that the numbers were arbitrarily selected by the writers - by that I mean they could have been any numbers. They might as well have put pieces of paper marked 1 to 50 into a hat and chosen 6 at random, or just picked their 6 favourite numbers.


I reckon that, when Lost is finished, you could spend ages going back through the entire plot, and replace the instances where 4,8,15,16,23,42 come up with 7,9,17,20,34,48 (and of course replace 108 with 135) and nothing else would change - no explanations, no events, no nothing.

'The numbers' could as well have been any old numbers - that is my theory in a sentence.


Well said, Danakin. I agree with you 100%! :)

[hallad69]

'The numbers' could as well have been any old numbers - that is my theory in a sentence.
I too aggree 100%

[Dreadmire]

Has anyone noticed the numbers under "Travellers" at the bottom of the page http://www.oceanic-air.com/
What the heck?

[Lab]

There is discussion of that site in Spin-offs if your interested, Dreadmire.

It's in this thread:

Oceanic-Air.com Discussion Thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7041)

Hope that's helpful. :)

[NeillT006]

there was a printout showing the time and the numbers that were entered -





Roughly speaking, any 'interesting' arithmetical property which a set of numbers can share tends to be distributed evenly over the numbers - the appearance of 15 and 16 rules this out.

While both of you may be right in your ultimate conclusions, neither of these statements offered in support of your positions is correct.

N.

[Tanatie]

If the numbers can be changed howcome hurley keeps on getting them in the same way and they seem really important?

[snakey]

Thanks to Juanbong for posting this theory of Doc Jensen's , ties in with the V equation too.
http://www.ew.com/ew/article/commentary/0,6115,1547154_3_0_,00.html

[Fierro]

It's been a long time since I last posted in this thread, but I thought it would be a good idea to share this with you regarding a possible end of the world scenario:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061024/ts_nm/environment_wwf_planet_dc

[littlelabrynth]

It's been a long time since I last posted in this thread, but I thought it would be a good idea to share this with you regarding a possible end of the world scenario:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061024/ts_nm/environment_wwf_planet_dc


I followed a couple of links from the one you provided, and look what I found. (link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4585920.stm))
Population size 'green priority'
By Richard Black
Environment Correspondent, BBC News website
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

Solving the Earth's environmental problems means addressing the size of its human population, says the head of the UK's Antarctic research agency.

Professor Chris Rapley argues that the current global population of six billion is unsustainably high.

Writing for the BBC News website, he says population is the "Cinderella" issue of the environmental movement.

But unless it is addressed, the welfare and quality of life of future generations will suffer, he adds.

Professor Rapley's comments come in the first of a new series of environmental opinion pieces on the BBC News website entitled The Green Room.

"If we believe that the size of the human [ecological] 'footprint' is a serious problem, and there is much evidence for this," he writes, "then a rational view would be that along with a raft of measures to reduce the footprint per person, the issue of population management must be addressed."

A number of studies suggest that humankind is consuming the Earth's resources at an unsustainably fast rate.

Even so, the issue of population is hardly ever discussed at environmental summits or raised by green lobby groups.

Professor Rapley, Director of the British Antarctic Survey, acknowledges it is a thorny question, invoking the spectre of forced population control and even eugenics. (emphasis added)

He does not make suggestions about how the current upward trend, from the current six billion towards eight or nine billion by 2050, can be reversed.
But, he says population is one of a number of issues leading to environmental degradation of various forms, and needs a higher priority than it currently receives.

"Unless and until this changes," he writes, "summits such as [the recent climate change meeting] in Montreal which address only part of the problem will be limited to at best very modest success, with the welfare and quality of life of future generations the ineluctable casualty."It's a scary thought that there might just be a real-life Mittlewerk someday. :scared:


Anyway, I didn't know what eugenics meant, so I looked it up. I had seen the word here and there in different theories, but never had read any kind of good description. I can't believe I didn't look this up earlier. Just in case there is anyone other than me who is also unclear on eugenics, here is an excerpt from wikipedia.

Eugenics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenicist)
Eugenics advocates the improvement of human (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human) hereditary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereditary) traits through various forms of intervention.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenicist#_note-Osborn1937) The purported goals have variously been to create healthier, more intelligent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_%28trait%29) people, save society's resources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics), and lessen human suffering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffering). Earlier proposed means of achieving these goals focused on selective breeding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_breeding), while modern ones focus on prenatal testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_testing) and screening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_screening), genetic counseling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_counseling), birth control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_control), in vitro fertilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_fertilization), and genetic engineering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_engineering). Opponents argue that eugenics is immoral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immoral) and is based on, or is itself, pseudoscience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience). Historically, eugenics has been used as a justification for coercive state-sponsored discrimination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination) and human rights violations, such as forced sterilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_sterilization) of persons with genetic defects, the killing of the institutionalized and, in some cases, genocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide) on races perceived as inferior.
Darn...now I have to go searching for theories about eugenics. :D
Thanks, Fierro. :Cheers:

[Fierro]

I followed a couple of links from the one you provided, and look what I found. (link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4585920.stm))
It's a scary thought that there might just be a real-life Mittlewerk someday. :scared:


Anyway, I didn't know what eugenics meant, so I looked it up. I had seen the word here and there in different theories, but never had read any kind of good description. I can't believe I didn't look this up earlier. Just in case there is anyone other than me who is also unclear on eugenics, here is an excerpt from wikipedia.

Eugenics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenicist)

Darn...now I have to go searching for theories about eugenics. :D
Thanks, Fierro. :Cheers:

...I have a feeling that the Others are a bunch Eugenics fans...

[NeillT006]

Well, now we have a fertility doctor.

N.

[Fierro]

I had this idea after reading a post form Charlie's opium at another forum in which he speculated that cvi, cvii, etc shown on the Blast Door Map might stand for CIVILIZATION 1,2, etc...
What if...
Dharma set up a different small 'civilization' for each of the stations dealing with the 'mission' of changing its core number to test how each of these communities would react or evolve in case they did manage to change the core number associated to it. They would be like a trial and error experiments on a small scale. In case they succedeed, they could try it on the GRAND SCALE. (whole world population)

Perhaps Ben's civilization was the one in which they were trying 'polulation control'. This would certainly explain a possible pandemic infertility among the others.

Perhaps this is what the 'disease' is all about. Pehaps Dharma did succeed after all, and Mittlewerk is about to try this 'disease/virus' on the grand scale.

[NeillT006]

Fierro:

I was thinking the same thing.

I posted this a while ago over in What I think is Going On...

It could be that one of DHARMA's projects was population control. Perhaps an ill fated attempt at involuntary reduction in fertility rates delivered via a modified viral agent backfired resulting in 100% infertility. If this escaped the island it would be bad for Gerbers and Pampers. So, maybe they are working on attempting to ameliorate the effects.


I, of course, had in mind TLE, but stopped short of saying anything about it due to Homer's spoilerphobia.

N.

[Fierro]

Fierro:

I was thinking the same thing.

I posted this a while ago over in What I think is Going On...



I, of course, had in mind TLE, but stopped short of saying anything about it due to Homer's spoilerphobia.

N.
LOL

[yung23]

so if there are no more numbers at all, did dharma fail still ?
(they did change in a way, they are no more, unless Glass eye guy has his own button)

what a dumb answer for the numbers regardless
IMO. they are hiding the truth because there is a use and they want to save it till the end to blow us right the heck out of the water..

[LostViking]

Hi all!


Warning = show title spoiler is in this post:








So the next episode is titled "Enter 77"

My first thought was - is this what was speculated - that the numbers could change and that entering a change would trigger an off ilsand response?

I have to wonder if the entering of "77" will be something the losties will be tricked into doing - much the same way Locke was tricked into not emtering the numbers.

Its hard to speculate - since TLE never revealed what the number variables represented - but I have to think that 77 might signify that one of the variables has been changed.

[island_maverick]

4 + 8 + 15 + 16 + 23 + 42 = 77

Could that mean that the hatches which represent where 15 and 16 would be discovered, were the only ones where research had not yet reached a satisfactory conclusion? The other four stations had achieved their research goal?

[Without Dane]

That would be awesome if this episode finally tied in TLE.

I remember really expecting a scene this season where the numbers changed.
Or, a reveal that the smoke monster was originally designed to "judge" and kill 33% of the world's population (the "worst" people would be the ones killed) so as to change the value of the equation. But, the Others took over Dharma to avoid such a drastic measure - and the smoke monster continues to roam the island "judging."

Anyway - here's hoping at least the numbers changing happens on the show!

[yung23]

so I have been thinking about this info lately..

IMO it still makes no sense..

we were told that an incident happened and the numbers needed to be used to save the world.


well, the numbers had been invented YEARS before the incident (by the UN & soviet union and enzo Valenzetti) , so they were not created to overt an incident.


lets bring this discussion back to the table..


Hanso says changing any one of the core values (through your own research) will save the world..



Soo.... IF the numbers tell of the exact numbers of years left (as they say it does)

then how would changing 42 to a 43 save the world ?

doesnt that merely give us another year ?

[yung23]

dont TPTB realize, the WHOLE SHOW is a write-off unless the numbers had a real use ?

you cannot simply bury an old question with new questions.

[yung23]

what if... the Valenzetti BS equation was in fact a prediction of when humanity will die off.. (the same things have been done for rat experiments etc, the rats all do well unitl they reach overpoulation.. then the whole project dies off, sickness sets in, mental illness etc)


SO...

Hanso realizes the whole thing may be a mute point. and sets up Dharma, but his true goal, was the creation of this APollo god..

Hansos persononal WORLD LEADER.. one world under ONE GOD..

a controllable, version of a global guard dog..

and the island was made to be a hidden encryption base, using QC to break all codes it can listen in on (it IS a radio transmiting island in its most basic form).. Allowing the worlds computers to ALL be run from the island.. (the island is a firewall breaker)

but Dharma caught on, and decided not to take part in this new world order..

they wanted to save lives, not become the world power, and they wanted to stop Hanso(possibly moreso WIDMORE) from taking control of this new god system..


so now, they must simply "remember" their perfect leader JACOB, who had been used in this god test..
and try to maintain control over the island..

weak,, but it may be PART of this whole mess

[yung23]

4 + 8 + 15 + 16 + 23 + 42 = 77

Could that mean that the hatches which represent where 15 and 16 would be discovered, were the only ones where research had not yet reached a satisfactory conclusion? The other four stations had achieved their research goal?


thats interesting.. I wondered "why 77?"

that gives some ideas at least mav.

there are still two un-discovered hatches...

[yung23]

Ive been working some timelines/process ideas out on my own for fun..


the numbers had existed since 1962, long before being used in this "incident"


I am really beginning to think, the incident, was nothing more than the PURGE.

the hostiles takeover etc.

this is when the numbers were used.

but for what purpose ?

UP to the key turning, the "purged" flame station obviously still had communication ability, possibly from the oceanic beacon..

and the swan hatch was being used (by apparently only true Dharma workers), to enter the numbers...

but why ?

apollo was ascended using some other set of frequency/resonance MD effect...

the PURGE happened during the test..
the islanders got wind of what the true project goals were..
world takeover by widmore and co.

the others used the flame to actually make contact at the wrong time, and deocherence occured...

The subject was lost, and DHARMA set up the numbers,
knowing the other stations had been taken over..

to keep the project alive.. in staisis ? a temp storage field/lattice ?


the others/hostiles had communications abilities up to the key turning..

they probably sat in the pearl until they saw locke see the BDM..
& watched michael in the swan..

but still had not BEEN in the swan,

ben knew little of it from the looks of it...
desmond had the hatch closed and secure,
and it WAS hidden fairly well..
the numbers had not been purposely missed yet..

which means the hostiles did not get into the swan..




they were in the Flame.. but it apparently had no working sat dish..
the others may have been using the sonar beacon in the meantime..

but the key was used, and we heard the others say communcations are out..

so how did they get TV ? or jacks file ?

THE QUANTUM COMPUTER.. they asked it for simulations of what may have happened.. ?

[they see ALL]

with a quantum computer, you could type a name in it and get info???


;)