Locke: Dangerous Boob or Island Mystic

[sgtdraino]

Okay, in the interests of not jacking the other thread around any more, let's continue this here:

He knew Sawyer did not hit Sayid because he was the one who was guilty of that.. He clearly planted the idea in Sayid's head to get himself divert attention from himself and he aimed him at an innocent person.

True, Locke did insinuate that Sawyer MIGHT be guilty, by using a cigarette as a slow fuse. But simply mentioning the possibility shouldn't have been enough to send a rational person off on an attack mission. If somebody steals your radio, and I say, "I saw Steve near your radio," do you immediately go attack Steve? No.

Sayid did not use the knife to torture Sawyer, he tried to kill him with it.

Nonsense. He stuck it through Sawyer's arm, and he stuck him there on purpose.

If Locke had not decieved him there would have been no need for Sayid to protect himself.

On this island, I'd say there are plenty of reasons to protect yourself.

He knew at that point the man was angry and going after Sawyer for what he did. He didn't have to make matters worse by almost causing a man to be killed for his deception.

See above. Mentioning a possible scenario is not culpability for "causing" somebody to try to murder somebody else. If Locke had claimed to have proof it would be different, but he didn't.

I don't believe in his connection, I'm not an earth worshipper.

I'm not an earth worshipper either. But you really don't think the Island (by which I mean whatever force is behind his visions) is sending him (and Eko, and others) messages?

I believe he may be psychic and in touch with the natural

I'm not even sure he's psychic. There's no proof (yet) that he had this ability before he landed on the island. I just think the island force is communicating with him somehow, for some reason. It remains to be seen whether it's really a force for good, or if it's manipulating them somehow for its own purposes.

but his Island connection seems to have grown out of his spiritual search that began before they crashed. He obviously was into certain Aborigine or Native American beliefs. I have no reason to think his clunking Boone on the head came from a vision, it probably came from his own choice of what was best for Boone.

Don't forget, he started mixing up that paste earlier in the day, before he clunked Boone on the head. It's like he knew what was going to happen, the plan was already set in motion. There are plenty of other instances where Locke just "knows" things he shouldn't know, like that Michael was an artist.

He may believe in the "monster" as force for good, but something killed the pilot, polar bears are dangerous, and those are just two of the things they've encountered, there could be snakes etc.

True. But Locke (at that time) had complete faith in the island. I think the island told him no harm would come to Boone. When later, he asks, "is that what it made you see?" I think he's talking about the island. Now, could his faith be misplaced? Certainly. Only the future will answer that one, though.

How safe even in ordinary wooded area is anyone tied up?

Er, pretty safe.

If you've you've ever spent time in the forest you know it's not,

I have, and it is.

besides who gave him the right to do it? He's not Boones God, he was wrong to take that much control over another person because he thought it right.

Suppose somebody called you on the phone, and told you that they were going to kill your wife on her way to work, and you believed what they said. Surely you would do whatever was necessary to keep your wife from being in that position. Locke said he gave Boone an experience vital to his survival on the island. Maybe he got a similar message? Obviously Boone didn't survive, but hindsight is 20/20. I think a similar message is what prompted him to conk Sayid on the head too.

That was the injury that had to be tended to first, but I'll defer to someone with more medical training about that. If you get into an accident they put you on a back board before moving you, Locke could not have known how bad Boone's injuries were, but he had to know they were serious.

Locke prolly has about as much medical training as you or I. Would we make the right decision? (and again, there was no "right" decision, Boone was already mortally wounded) Also, keep in mind that he only started to be able to walk again just as Boone fell. Perhaps he didn't know how long he'd be able to use his legs for? Suppose he left Boone, ran for help, and then collapsed partway back to the camp? That would leave Boone out in the middle of nowhere even LONGER without medical attention. And you're also the one talking about how dangerous it is to leave someone helpless out in the woods. Not only was Boone helpless, but radiating the smell of blood. Now that COULD have brought predators.

The only reason he moved him was to hide what he was doing, as he pointed out Boone was an Island sacrifice.

That was something Locke only came to believe later. At the time it occured, he felt the island had betrayed his trust, hence the banging on the hatch.

He was clearly hiding it from the rest, as he did everything else in service to the Island.

If Locke does have one foible, it is that he tends to keep information to himself. Of course, so does everone ELSE on the island! ;)

Every totalitarian, oppressive regime uses the excuse of doing it for the greater good for every right they take, for every group they destroy. Nations take people out everyday for torture and death, all for the greater good.

There's a difference between an excuse, and actual good intentions.

Because he chosses to risk himself for his beliefs is one thing, but when he starts to force them on others, then he's wrong. You don't know my religion but what if I felt you and everyone else had to believe as I do because it will be best for all? Of course I think it would be best for all or I wouldn't believe it. Biut I think people would be quick to protest that it would be wrong for me to force others to believe as I do.

It sounds as though you think Locke will start murdering or harming anyone who doesn't believe the same way he does. I don't think that's ever going to happen. We'll see! It seems to me that Locke mostly keeps himself to himself, and if someone wants to pal around with him, that's when he starts imparting what he believes.

Oddly enough I can agree with that to a degree, he believes he's doing it for everyone, but he's really doing it out of his personal quest.

If he didn't think of himself at all, then he wouldn't be human. Of course he has motivations of his own. I still think he's one of the most selfless of all the 815s.

Please don't get me wrong, I think Locke is a great character and I hope they keep him until the end. He has wisdom, skill, intelligence and wonderfully played by TQ. To get back to the point of the thread I hope they use more of those things this year, for good or bad.

Same here! :)

[Khan]

True, Locke did insinuate that Sawyer MIGHT be guilty, by using a cigarette as a slow fuse. But simply mentioning the possibility shouldn't have been enough to send a rational person off on an attack mission. If somebody steals your radio, and I say, "I saw Steve near your radio," do you immediately go attack Steve? No.
The radio allegory does not fit this situation, it's an object,not an act of violence. Sayid was physically injured while desperately trying to be saved, the stakes are much higher.They had one chance because of the equipments low power supply.
If someone in a similar situation asked the man who did the crime if he did it and he begins to insinuate you or someone you loved and then proceeds to give the pissed off man a knife would you feel the same way? He was covering his ass by sending Sayid out after someone elses. In this case he was duplicity incarnate.
Why, smart and intuitive as he is, would he assume Sayid was in any way rational at that point. The man was pissed, and ready to get the one who hit him, a child would have seen that.
Nonsense. He stuck it through Sawyer's arm, and he stuck him there on purpose.
I see the scene as the arm being the only thing in the midst of the fight he could get to. Have you ever been in a knife fight? You don't pull one unless you mean business and know when that person coming after you with one is not merely intending to give you a little boo boo. He meant to damage more than an arm.
On this island, I'd say there are plenty of reasons to protect yourself.
Not applicable here. If protection was his motivation why wait until the moment he's in danger of being found out?
Why not just admit it ,if he wasn't trying to deflect attention from himself?

See above. Mentioning a possible scenario is not culpability for "causing" somebody to try to murder somebody else. If Locke had claimed to have proof it would be different, but he didn't.
He knew how Sayid was angry as hell, he knew trouble would follow, and he wanted someone else to pay for what he did.
I'm not an earth worshipper either. But you really don't think the Island (by which I mean whatever force is behind his visions) is sending him (and Eko, and others) messages?
I believe that something about the Island increases latent or existing psychic abilities. Even so clairvoyance does not give excuse us from right and wrong.
We may know things, but we still have a responsibilty to let other choose for themselves. We own no one.
I'm not even sure he's psychic. There's no proof (yet) that he had this ability before he landed on the island. I just think the island force is communicating with him somehow, for some reason. It remains to be seen whether it's really a force for good, or if it's manipulating them somehow for its own purposes.
True. But Locke (at that time) had complete faith in the island. I think the island told him no harm would come to Boone. When later, he asks, "is that what it made you see?" I think he's talking about the island. Now, could his faith be misplaced? Certainly. Only the future will answer that one, though.
I don't not believe the Island is a sentient being. Not matter what someone "knows" to be good or right it does not mean they can inflict them on someone else. I can't believe the Island is a mini god, with the power and wisdom to control the lives of all those in it's sphere. What's next, an alter, and dance around the fire to appease it?
Yes Locke had faith, but he can't force that on anyone. Next time someone is trying to make you join their religion then you should go because they believe and it doesn't matter if you do or not right, it's what they believe because they know more than you.
Don't forget, he started mixing up that paste earlier in the day, before he clunked Boone on the head. It's like he knew what was going to happen, the plan was already set in motion. There are plenty of other instances where Locke just "knows" things he shouldn't know, like that Michael was an artist.
I've had spiritual experiences, should I be able to drug you, and force you to adhere to what I've found to be true?
Or what if the government decides to monitor every citizens food and alcohol intake, forcing us to abide by the best known understanding of carb,protien, and fat amounts daily. Or force up to exercise X amount of hours daily?
What if we lost the right to work out our relationships, having to defer to someone who knows whats best for us, and will go to extremes to make us follow thier lead.
What if the your boss feels your partner is not good for you and takes extreme steps to separate you? And maybe they'd be right, but would you accept it?
Er, pretty safe.
I have, and it is.
Where were you? in the jungles of the Tahitii with the most dangerous thing being a nasty centipede? You were tied up? With no one knowing where you were, with polar bears?
Now you're pulling my leg, unless it was some back yard wooded area, I can't believe anyone would believe it's safe to be tied and left alone. This place is dangerous.
Suppose somebody called you on the phone, and told you that they were going to kill your wife on her way to work, and you believed what they said. Surely you would do whatever was necessary to keep your wife from being in that position. Locke said he gave Boone an experience vital to his survival on the island. Maybe he got a similar message? Obviously Boone didn't survive, but hindsight is 20/20. I think a similar message is what prompted him to conk Sayid on the head too.
I'm female and straight so no wife. My man okay?
That's not the same thing , it was not about Boones survival. As you pointed out Boone did it all and DIED following Lockes vision, and his love Shannon died on the Island too, so much for it helping him or anyone he cared about survive. If he had went back and blabbed or told Shannon and she blabbed or talked him it out of it he might still be alive because he wouldn't have followed Locke to the plane.
It was all about Locke's overall belief in what the Island wanted him to do. And he intense desire to hide it from everyone else. Shannon was his rival ,the only one who could get Boone to choose another direction, he got her out of the way, not because Boone needed to move on, he did, but to make sure Boone would keep his secret. He didn't do a damn thing until Boone decided to tell Shannon. If he cared so much, why not help until Boone became determined to include her?
Locke prolly has about as much medical training as you or I. Would we make the right decision? (and again, there was no "right" decision, Boone was already mortally wounded) Also, keep in mind that he only started to be able to walk again just as Boone fell. Perhaps he didn't know how long he'd be able to use his legs for? Suppose he left Boone, ran for help, and then collapsed partway back to the camp? That would leave Boone out in the middle of nowhere even LONGER without medical attention. And you're also the one talking about how dangerous it is to leave someone helpless out in the woods. Not only was Boone helpless, but radiating the smell of blood. Now that COULD have brought predators.
I have had some medical training, and I know better than to move a person with possible internal injuries, except in the case of eminent danger.
Now you think it's a dangerous place? Not before, when polar bears have been known to hunt humans for food ( non injured ones humans), and the boar may be thinned out so thier food source in a given area is less. Wild boars kill too.
It was not worth the risk, his motivation was to hide his findings, and control.
There's a difference between an excuse, and actual good intentions.
Communism satrted out with good intentions, but talk to anyone who has to live with that type of system and it's not pretty. Good intentionas are extemely subjective, especially after you start forcing them on others.

It sounds as though you think Locke will start murdering or harming anyone who doesn't believe the same way he does. I don't think that's ever going to happen. We'll see! It seems to me that Locke mostly keeps himself to himself, and if someone wants to pal around with him, that's when he starts imparting what he believes.
It's a possiblity, he's been willing to do what he feels is best for anyone who gets close or rather who gets close to what he's up to, he manipulates, deceives, risks lives, I wonder if he was a neighbor of yours or an politition of yours and believed differently than you if you'd still think he's to trusted. That he's worth giving up your free will to and putting your body and soul in his hands without any further thought of your own, just let him decide all that best for you and yours.
BTW thanks for the great conversation. I couldn't vote, the poll is too black or white.

[Island Hobo]

Wow, cool poll. I'm always on the side of Locke, some how I can always see it from his point of view. He was reading the island and doing what he thought was best for boone and everyone, and seeing how doing all that made it so Desmond could continue to push the button in The Hatch and keep everyone alive it turns out he was right.

In my opinion it was Boone's destiny to die in that way all so Locke would go back to The Hatch and freak out and get Desmond to stop trying to kill himself, the island intensionally deceived him in my opinion.

[Noav Sigless]

Yay! Another chance to call Locke a boob. How could I resist this thread?
I would like to add that he is also a gullible, irrational, delusional boob.

[sgtdraino]

The radio allegory does not fit this situation, it's an object,not an act of violence. Sayid was physically injured while desperately trying to be saved, the stakes are much higher. <snip> He was covering his ass by sending Sayid out after someone elses. In this case he was duplicity incarnate.
Why, smart and intuitive as he is, would he assume Sayid was in any way rational at that point.

Sayid seemed pretty rational to me when Locke gave him the knife. Locke didn't say, "Sawyer did it," he simply said that he didn't, and showed it was possible Sawyer could have. Doesn't matter how high the stakes are, the simple truth is it was Sayid's wrongdoing to attack a man simply because it's POSSIBLE he could be the culprit. Was Locke duplicitous? SURE! I'd never deny that he can definitely be sneakier than he gives himself credit. ;)

I see the scene as the arm being the only thing in the midst of the fight he could get to.

Arm slashes are common, arm stabs somewhat less so. An arm is narrow, it's much easier to stab a torso than an arm. But to my memory, Sayid had Sawyer completely off balance. A stab to the trunk, basically the biggest part of the human body, would have been comparitively easy if he had wanted to.

Have you ever been in a knife fight?

Nope, but I am a police sergeant with 8 years experience. I've seen them, and have had training on the dangers of knife combat.

He meant to damage more than an arm.

A person trained in knife combat can effectively kill you from more than 14 feet away, before you even have time to draw your gun.

Not applicable here. If protection was his motivation why wait until the moment he's in danger of being found out?
Why not just admit it ,if he wasn't trying to deflect attention from himself?

Oh, he was! But he didn't say, "go attack Sawyer," he said, "Here's a knife for protection. It's possible Sawyer could have done it."

He knew how Sayid was angry as hell, he knew trouble would follow, and he wanted someone else to pay for what he did.

No he didn't. He just didn't want to be held accountable himself.

We may know things, but we still have a responsibilty to let other choose for themselves. We own no one.

If a blind man is walking towards a cliff edge, do you stop him?

I don't not believe the Island is a sentient being.

Me neither. Well, what I refer to as "the island," is whatever force is sending Locke, Eko, etc. messages. I think it's clear that IS a sentient being of some sort. There's intelligence behind something that tells Eko, "Help John find the question mark." Somebody is pulling some strings, there. Now, I'm NOT convinced it really has the 815's best interests at heart. That remains to be seen.

Not matter what someone "knows" to be good or right it does not mean they can inflict them on someone else.

Happens all the time. Heck, that's what the criminal justice system is for, to enforce values of right and wrong onto members of society.

I can't believe the Island is a mini god, with the power and wisdom to control the lives of all those in it's sphere.

I don't think the island force is a god. I used to think it could have a divine source, but now I think there's a rational more down-to-earth explanation of some sort behind it. Somebody is pulling some strings. Now, I think JOHN believes that force is a force for good. I'm not totally convinced of that. But the point is, Locke thinks that force has the greater good in mind, and that is what he's all about.

Next time someone is trying to make you join their religion then you should go because they believe and it doesn't matter if you do or not right, it's what they believe because they know more than you.

Don't think in terms of religion. Say, you see a child about to touch an electric fence. You know if he touches it, it could kill him. Do you snatch him away from the fence, even though the act of snatching could injure him?

Now, one step further, suppose without your knowledge there'd been a power outage, and the fence is off. You snatch the kid away from the fence, not realizing the fence won't harm him right now. The kid twists his arm in the process. Was it wrong for you to play god, snatching him away from the fence?

I've had spiritual experiences, should I be able to drug you, and force you to adhere to what I've found to be true?

I'm actually not convinced Locke's paste did anything more than he said (disinfect Boone's wound). The vision may have been caused by something unrelated.

What if the your boss feels your partner is not good for you and takes extreme steps to separate you? And maybe they'd be right, but would you accept it?

This sounds like the "slippery slope" argument, which is kind of meaningless. If one tiny step in the direction of enforcing some manner of behavior is the start of a "slippery slope," then we shouldn't have any laws at all. There is no such thing as a slippery slope. Society draws a line.

Where were you? in the jungles of the Tahitii with the most dangerous thing being a nasty centipede? You were tied up? With no one knowing where you were, with polar bears?

I believe you specified, "How safe even in ordinary wooded area is anyone tied up?"

The answer is quite safe. You can sit in one place in an "ordinary wooded area" for days, a week or more, and nothing's gonna bother you. And it is quite hard to tie someone up indefinitely. We just had a murder here locally where a guy tied up another guy, killed his ex-wife, and left. The police were alerted when the tied up guy got free after a few hours. Locke knew Boone would get free. He even said so.

I'm female and straight so no wife. My man okay?

Heh. When I said that, I sorta expected you to come back with, "I'm only 13 years old!" Don't get hung up on details, it's just an example.

That's not the same thing , it was not about Boones survival. As you pointed out Boone did it all and DIED following Lockes vision,

If you save a man from getting run over by a bus, but a week later he falls down (or up) some stairs and dies, does that mean your act of saving him was pointless or wrong?

and his love Shannon died on the Island too, so much for it helping him or anyone he cared about survive. If he had went back and blabbed or told Shannon and she blabbed or talked him it out of it he might still be alive because he wouldn't have followed Locke to the plane.

Or maybe something even MORE horrible would have happened instead? Who knows? This is just pure speculation.

It was all about Locke's overall belief in what the Island wanted him to do.

True. But that belief is still centered in the idea that it is what is best for the group as a whole. The greater good.

And he intense desire to hide it from everyone else.

That's 'cause they "weren't ready," and "they wouldn't understand it." ;)

He didn't do a damn thing until Boone decided to tell Shannon.

He mixed up the paste. I think he knew what was going to happen. I think something told him.

I have had some medical training, and I know better than to move a person with possible internal injuries, except in the case of eminent danger.

Has Locke had any? We don't know. In any event, obviously I've had medical training too, and I think the call to move vs. leave Boone could legitimately go either way. Especially considering the decision had to be made right THEN. I don't fault Locke for the choice he made.

Now you think it's a dangerous place?

And you don't?

Not before, when polar bears have been known to hunt humans for food ( non injured ones humans), and the boar may be thinned out so thier food source in a given area is less. Wild boars kill too.

So, to leave Boone with a knife, tied up with bonds you know he can escape from, is more dangerous than leaving him bloody, unconsious, and helpless?

Good intentionas are extemely subjective, especially after you start forcing them on others.

This sounds like the ol' "road to hell is paved with good intentions" argument, another I think is kind of meaningless. If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, then I guess none of us should ever try to do good things? My only point is that Locke is motivated to do good things. He's not always right, but that's what he's motivated by.

I wonder if he was a neighbor of yours or an politition of yours and believed differently than you if you'd still think he's to trusted.

As with just about anybody you'd meet, he can certainly be trusted within certain perameters. Do I trust him with no reservation whatsoever? Of course not, nor would I anybody. Nobody's perfect. My only point is that his heart is in the right place.

BTW thanks for the great conversation. I couldn't vote, the poll is too black or white.

Awww, come on, vote! :)

[Khan]

Sayid seemed pretty rational to me when Locke gave him the knife. Locke didn't say, "Sawyer did it," he simply said that he didn't, and showed it was possible Sawyer could have. Doesn't matter how high the stakes are, the simple truth is it was Sayid's wrongdoing to attack a man simply because it's POSSIBLE he could be the culprit. Was Locke duplicitous? SURE! I'd never deny that he can definitely be sneakier than he gives himself credit. ;)
The purpose was to let someone else get hurt for his actions, unexcusable.
You never answered my question what if such a thing a happened to you or a someone you loved? Would you see it the same way?
Arm slashes are common, arm stabs somewhat less so. An arm is narrow, it's much easier to stab a torso than an arm. But to my memory, Sayid had Sawyer completely off balance. A stab to the trunk, basically the biggest part of the human body, would have been comparitively easy if he had wanted to.
You're talking to someone who's been there and did that more than once, come on, give it up, real people don't just aim for the arms, it's because you miss too often, I can guarantee you the other person won't be aiming for your arms. That fight was staged Hollywood style, but to me, it was clear they wanted to show Sayid in a murderous rage.
Nope, but I am a police sergeant with 8 years experience. I've seen them, and have had training on the dangers of knife combat.
Good, then you know how often it's not play. You must know what happens when two angry people go at it armed, I would have thought you to be a lawyer by the way you defend him in his crimes. :)
A person trained in knife combat can effectively kill you from more than 14 feet away, before you even have time to draw your gun.
I know that, martial arts, self defense training, among other things. Sayid was in the kind of heat that wants it to be up close and hands on. It wasn't a simple cold killing he had in mind.
Oh, he was! But he didn't say, "go attack Sawyer," he said, "Here's a knife for protection. It's possible Sawyer could have done it."
Oh Bulls.... He knew, we're not talking about the ignorant public, we're talking about the man who did it.
No he didn't. He just didn't want to be held accountable himself.
Didn't you arrest people like that? How many did you let off for being ..mystical and having visions? :)
If a blind man is walking towards a cliff edge, do you stop him?
Not applicable, it wasn't about Boone, it was about hiding his agenda. Self again.
Me neither. Well, what I refer to as "the island," is whatever force is sending Locke, Eko, etc. messages. I think it's clear that IS a sentient being of some sort.
We'll never agree here. I see it as something other then a single intelligent entity.
Happens all the time. Heck, that's what the criminal justice system is for, to enforce values of right and wrong onto members of society.
And you don't think he was wrong in any thing he's done? Odd for a law enforcement officer to let one's personal beliefs justify criminal acts. But it's so easy when it's just TV and real respondsibilty can be overlooked.
Now, I think JOHN believes that force is a force for good. I'm not totally convinced of that. But the point is, Locke thinks that force has the greater good in mind, and that is what he's all about.
Why should John control thier lives against thier will? Why? Would you give up your will to someone who merely has visions? I'd be fit to be tied if someone hit me, bound me, and all because they didn't like how I was handling my relationships and becasue they were afraid I might expose thier private Island plans.
Don't think in terms of religion. Say, you see a child about to touch an electric fence. You know if he touches it, it could kill him. Do you snatch him away from the fence, even though the act of snatching could injure him?
Now, one step further, suppose without your knowledge there'd been a power outage, and the fence is off. You snatch the kid away from the fence, not realizing the fence won't harm him right now. The kid twists his arm in the process. Was it wrong for you to play god, snatching him away from the fence?
It is more like religion than concrete knowledge of the effects of electricity. He believes in the Island, I believe in my God, shall I tell you force you into doing things I think are required to keep you from hell or earthy punishment? Then you'd have to live as I interpet my beliefs or I'd have to do whatever it takes to make you live that way for your own good. No that's not going to happen, we all have free will.
Besides he wasn't, again, thinking about Boone's well being, he was only interested in his vision. I believe there are terrorist who think the same way. They have a vison for the world , a very ugly one. But it's the same thing, once you start taking away basic human rights to bring your vision into being, you've crossed a very dangerous line.
I'm actually not convinced Locke's paste did anything more than he said (disinfect Boone's wound). The vision may have been caused by something unrelated.
Maybe, but why would Boone have a vision only after he he was knocked in the head and smeared with Lockes magic goo?
This sounds like the "slippery slope" argument, which is kind of meaningless. If one tiny step in the direction of enforcing some manner of behavior is the start of a "slippery slope," then we shouldn't have any laws at all. There is no such thing as a slippery slope. Society draws a line.
Not in this case, he took it upon himself to force a separation between Boone and his sort of sister, an emotional problem that existed since they were children, just to keep his little secret. Haldly an alturistc act.
I believe you specified, "How safe even in ordinary wooded area is anyone tied up?"
The answer is quite safe. You can sit in one place in an "ordinary wooded area" for days, a week or more, and nothing's gonna bother you. And it is quite hard to tie someone up indefinitely.
This is not an ordinary situation or Island. Have you tried that trick in a jungle? Would you? The monster one person, polar bears can and have killed people, you never address that problem. That what we knpw they face. I'm going to have to stop my wilderness vacations and find these places you're talking about. Because I sure as hell wouldn't want to be tied to a tree in any jungle or some of the places I camped in. Okay Tahitii and the like are cool, but no one is tying me up anywhere.
Heh. When I said that, I sorta expected you to come back with, "I'm only 13 years old!" Don't get hung up on details, it's just an example.

At what point did I sound 13? I hope you're joking since we've had such a lovely conversation so far, and I like to think you're not just trying to piss me off because you like the character and can't justify his actions.
If you save a man from getting run over by a bus, but a week later he falls down (or up) some stairs and dies, does that mean your act of saving him was pointless or wrong?
Or maybe something even MORE horrible would have happened instead? Who knows? This is just pure speculation.
I can't believe in the connection. You said it did it to save Boone, it was his only way to survive. All it did was hasten his death, chances are he wouldn't have been there.
There's no end to speculation, Boones death was quite horrible enough.
True. But that belief is still centered in the idea that it is what is best for the group as a whole. The greater good.That's 'cause they "weren't ready," and "they wouldn't understand it." ;)
Huh? Why is it his ideas that brings the greater good? The button was pushed not because of him, but because all were included, something he fought to keep from happening. He failed. When was it the Island's choice to shut everyone out? It took agroup to get the explosives and blow the cover, Desmond would have offed himself if they had not got there. He's not God or the voice of God. He was thinking only of his personal quest.
Has Locke had any? We don't know. In any event, obviously I've had medical training too, and I think the call to move vs. leave Boone could legitimately go either way. Especially considering the decision had to be made right THEN. I don't fault Locke for the choice he made.
I do because he put himslef before Boone, he only cared about John Locke in those moments, but that's a point we will probably never agree on. So we might as well not visit there again.
So, to leave Boone with a knife, tied up with bonds you know he can escape from, is more dangerous than leaving him bloody, unconsious, and helpless?
A means to excape, incompetant Boone, who's failed at everything good he's tried to do? The knife was not exactly at his finger tips, it took awhile for him to figure out how to free himself. It's a good thing the Cola contingent of the bear family wasn't near and hungry or even a member constrictor genus of snakes, or Boone could have been lunch.
This sounds like the ol' "road to hell is paved with good intentions" argument, another I think is kind of meaningless. If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, then I guess none of us should ever try to do good things? My only point is that Locke is motivated to do good things. He's not always right, but that's what he's motivated by.
I'll remember that the next time some ass says the Taliban was only trying to instill good Islamic values in Afganistan, or I should vote a certain way because it's best and I'm not being godly if I don't, perhaps I should defer to the music artists who say thier violent lyrics are not affecting the minds of the young. Thier motivations are all so sterling, I shouldn't question them or make a judgement when they're so obviously wrong., because motivation is all that counts, not results.
As with just about anybody you'd meet, he can certainly be trusted within certain perameters. Do I trust him with no reservation whatsoever? Of course not, nor would I anybody. Nobody's perfect. My only point is that his heart is in the right place.
I'm ambivalent about that, he's too aware not to know he's crossed the line too damn many times. But I don't think he's not completely evil, but his heart needs a lot of work. He needs to guide others, not play god with them, he has to know when to back off. Maybe that's his biggest lesson to learn.
Awww, come on, vote! :)
I can't, because he's is a mystic, but he's dangerously misusing whatever gifts he has, right now he's both.

[boonian androphile]

Dangerous Island Mystic Boob.:bullwhip: :tree: :pray: :dunce:

[Brian]

:yeah: What boonian said. ;)

[Smartypants]

God. I couldn't bother to read all those quotes. I went with Mystic. Was that the right answer?

[Brian]

God. I couldn't bother to read all those quotes. I went with Mystic. Was that the right answer?
Of course. :) :Cheers:

[sgtdraino]

The purpose was to let someone else get hurt for his actions, unexcusable.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I believe his purpose was simply to direct suspicion away from himself. I don't think he ever intended anyone else to get hurt.

You never answered my question what if such a thing a happened to you or a someone you loved? Would you see it the same way?

If someone wacked me over the head, and John told me how Sawyer could use a cigarette as a slow fuse, would I go attack Sawyer? No way. I'd want real evidence, not just possibilites.

You're talking to someone who's been there and did that more than once, come on, give it up, real people don't just aim for the arms, it's because you miss too often, I can guarantee you the other person won't be aiming for your arms. That fight was staged Hollywood style, but to me, it was clear they wanted to show Sayid in a murderous rage.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one too. I agree they definitely wanted to show Sayid losing his temper, but I still think that if Sayid had really wanted to kill Sawyer, he'd be dead. He just wanted to hurt him, take out his frustrations on him.

Good, then you know how often it's not play. You must know what happens when two angry people go at it armed,

It's astonishing how often two lunkheads will beat the crap out of each other, and then be buddies again the next day. And you can want to hurt somebody badly, without wanting to kill them.

I would have thought you to be a lawyer by the way you defend him in his crimes. :)

Sayid's crimes? ;) Far as I can tell, Locke has commited two crimes: Assault on Sayid, and assault on Boone. I guess he assaulted Charlie too, technically. ;) Telling Sayid that you can make a slow fuse with a cigarette was not a crime.

Oh Bulls.... He knew, we're not talking about the ignorant public, we're talking about the man who did it.

I really don't think he knew or intended for Sayid to go attack Sawyer. I think his only thoughts were to deflect blame from himself.

Of course, I ACTUALLY think TPTB didn't know WHO attacked Sayid at that point, but that's another argument. ;)

Didn't you arrest people like that? How many did you let off for being ..mystical and having visions? :)

Lots. Often you can't get warrants on someone with a history of mental illness. Magistrate will not give 'em to ya. But as far as assault goes? Sure, people get arrested for that all the time. Now let's see, if we arrested every 815 that was guilty of assault, just how many of them would that be? ;)

Not applicable, it wasn't about Boone, it was about hiding his agenda. Self again.

Agree to disagree.

We'll never agree here. I see it as something other then a single intelligent entity.

Not enough available information for a definitive ruling.

And you don't think he was wrong in any thing he's done?

Yes and no. I've said before that he does what he thinks is best for everybody, but that he's not always right.

Odd for a law enforcement officer to let one's personal beliefs justify criminal acts. But it's so easy when it's just TV and real respondsibilty can be overlooked.

You can't judge the situation on the island the same way you can actions that happen in a normal developed society. It's like that soccer team that crashed in the mountains, and ate some of the other passengers to survive. Back in society, that is a crime. But they did what was necessary for their survival.

Why should John control thier lives against thier will? Why?

It seems to me that 9 times out of 10, Locke let's people make their own choices. If they don't want what he's selling, then that's their choice. It's only occasionally, when someone's actions are affecting/endangering the rest of the group, that he lays the smack down on them:

1. Sayid, about to lead the 815s do a dangerous transmission source.
2. Boone, about to tell his dangerous sister about the hatch.
3. Charlie, endangering the baby.

Would you give up your will to someone who merely has visions? I'd be fit to be tied if someone hit me, bound me, and all because they didn't like how I was handling my relationships and becasue they were afraid I might expose thier private Island plans.

Since Boone stayed buddies with Locke after that, I guess he didn't see it that way. ;)

It is more like religion than concrete knowledge of the effects of electricity. He believes in the Island, I believe in my God, shall I tell you force you into doing things I think are required to keep you from hell or earthy punishment?

I don't think it's quite the same thing. In the context of this show, the things revealed by "the island" (or whatever you want to call it) clearly have a basis in reality. The island imparts information or "miracles" that can be impirically proven. It healed Locke's legs and Rose's cancer, it showed Locke where a real plane crashed, showed Eko the question mark, hinted at the importance of the hatch, hinted to Hurley that Walt was a missing kid, and apparently engineered Boone's death specifically so Desmond would live to turn the key. To me that says there's an intelligent design behind this "force." It ain't just some crazy mumbo-jumbo island voodoo froo-froo.

Besides he wasn't, again, thinking about Boone's well being, he was only interested in his vision.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one too. We simply have totally different interpretations of Locke's motivations. From my point of view, Locke never wanted anything bad to happen to Boone. He yelled at him to get out of the plane before it fell, he took what he thought was the best course of action to save him when it fell, and then he banged his fists against the hatch asking why his vision betrayed him.

Maybe, but why would Boone have a vision only after he he was knocked in the head and smeared with Lockes magic goo?

I don't know. Maybe something about the area he was left in. Didn't Eko and Locke camp out at a specific place because they were waiting for further instructions?

Not in this case, he took it upon himself to force a separation between Boone and his sort of sister, an emotional problem that existed since they were children, just to keep his little secret. Haldly an alturistc act.

You seem to think Locke can only do something for one reason. Sure he wanted to keep the hatch a secret, but I think he also wanted to help Boone. And it's not like he stopped Boone from doing whatever the hell Boone wanted, after his little dream trip.

This is not an ordinary situation or Island. Have you tried that trick in a jungle? Would you?

Hey, you were the one that set the "ordinary wooded area" danger conditions.

The monster one person, polar bears can and have killed people, you never address that problem.

Think about good ol' Steve Irwin (God rest his soul). Most animals aren't gonna attack humans unless they are feeling cornered and/or threatened. Boone was in relatively little danger, and that's WITHOUT any sort of enhanced knowledge Locke may have had about the area, via his tracking skills or any ESP communication from the Island.

At what point did I sound 13?

lol. At what point did you sound like a girl? The fierce kitty avatar threw me. As soon as I put "wife" I thought to myself, "I'm probably gonna be wrong on some detail of this, since the Island isn't giving me any visions about it, and Khan is gonna call me on it." :) And ya know what I have to say to that?

Khan! Bloodsucker! You've managed to kill just about everyone else, but like a bad marksman, you keep! Missing! The target! :)

Okay, who knows that one? Anyone? Anyone?

I can't believe in the connection. You said it did it to save Boone, it was his only way to survive.

Not exactly. I'm saying that is what the Island communicated to Locke, and what Locke believed. Locke believed that if Boone did not go through what he did, something bad would happen to Boone. And based on the other real and valuable information communicated through his visions, Locke was convinced he needed to act on this.

All it did was hasten his death, chances are he wouldn't have been there.

That is something we don't know and can never know.

There's no end to speculation, Boones death was quite horrible enough.

What I'm saying is that, maybe if Boone had told everyone about the hatch at that time, something even worse would have happened. Maybe not just to him, but to others as well. Who knows?

Huh? Why is it his ideas that brings the greater good?

Not his ideas generally, but things the Island tells him to do. And so far, that actually does seem to be the case. Yep, the Island killed Boone, but it also saved Desmond, got the key turned, and possibly has rescue on the way.

The button was pushed not because of him, but because all were included, something he fought to keep from happening.

He didn't fight to keep it from happening, he fought to delay it. He didn't want it revealed too soon. Why? Who knows. We weren't privy to that vision.

He failed.

As evident from the vision he got about Boone's death, the Island is not always clear about meanings, or exactly what Locke should do, and when he should do it. He didn't fail, he kept the hatch a secret precisely as long as he was supposed to.

When was it the Island's choice to shut everyone out? It took agroup to get the explosives and blow the cover, Desmond would have offed himself if they had not got there. He's not God or the voice of God. He was thinking only of his personal quest.

Nah, he was just doing what the Island told him to. He was up for that dangerous dynamite carrying too. If he's really as self-centered as you say, wouldn't he have found a tricky way to get somebody else to do that? And why let himself be dragged down a hole before he gets his hatch open?

I do because he put himslef before Boone, he only cared about John Locke in those moments, but that's a point we will probably never agree on. So we might as well not visit there again.

Yup! :)

It's a good thing the Cola contingent of the bear family wasn't near and hungry or even a member constrictor genus of snakes, or Boone could have been lunch.

The Island kept the area clear. ;)

I'll remember that the next time some ass says the Taliban was only trying to instill good Islamic values in Afganistan,

Well, I reckon there are three classes of "good intentions" people. You've got those that have good intentions, but are completely insane (like the nazis), you've got people who pretend to have good intentions, but really don't (some music artists, etc.), and finally you've got the people that really do have good intentions, and good reasons for believing the way they do. I think Locke is one of those.

I'm ambivalent about that, he's too aware not to know he's crossed the line too damn many times.

As many times as Sawyer (murdered a guy), Sayid (tortured a guy), Eko (killed a lotta guys), Ana-lucia (murder, again), Kate (more murder!), Charlie (killed in cold blood, kidnapped Sun), Shannon (attempted murder), Michael (cold blooded double murder), Sun (poisoner), Jin (beat the crap out of a guy), or Jack (conspired in torture with Sayid, "mercy" killings)?

But I don't think he's not completely evil,

Patented confuso-phrasing! :)

[Khan]

If someone wacked me over the head, and John told me how Sawyer could use a cigarette as a slow fuse, would I go attack Sawyer? No way. I'd want real evidence, not just possibilites.
You are thinking like a rational person, a police officer to boot. Sayid was in a froth because he put so much hope on the getting the signal for thier rescue. Way too stressed out to push without trouble.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one too. I agree they definitely wanted to show Sayid losing his temper, but I still think that if Sayid had really wanted to kill Sawyer, he'd be dead. He just wanted to hurt him, take out his frustrations on him.
Hmm If someone tried to take out their frustrations on me with a knife, one of us probably wouldn't walk away.
It's astonishing how often two lunkheads will beat the crap out of each other, and then be buddies again the next day. And you can want to hurt somebody badly, without wanting to kill them.
Heavens, how true. But those two had bad blood from the beginning, they were nowhere near friends. This is another point we'll disagree on, I believe he was blindly angry, the kind that with all of the stress, those bastions of morality, defense lawyers, use all the time to get thier clients off after some idiot realizes what he's done and what it will cast him the next day.
Sayid's crimes? ;) Far as I can tell, Locke has commited two crimes: Assault on Sayid, and assault on Boone. I guess he assaulted Charlie too, technically. ;) Telling Sayid that you can make a slow fuse with a cigarette was not a crime.
Not technically, morally, and a severe lack of character. It's like goading someone into committing suicide...wait they can try you for that.

[QUOTE]I really don't think he knew or intended for Sayid to go attack Sawyer. I think his only thoughts were to deflect blame from himself.
One more point we'll never agree on ( a few more and we won't have anything to talk about but the weather on Craphole Island). I firmly believe he did, in fact I think there's some sort of problem between Sawyer and Locke, besides Sawyer behaving like a jerk.
Of course, I ACTUALLY think TPTB didn't know WHO attacked Sayid at that point, but that's another argument. ;)
Don't I wish we could. But sounds like you believe as do , most of what they write probably goes something like this:
"Okay who's flashback are we doing this week? His? Fine. What happened in the last script? What? Oh S... how are we going to explain THAT?"
Lots. Often you can't get warrants on someone with a history of mental illness. Magistrate will not give 'em to ya. But as far as assault goes? Sure, people get arrested for that all the time. Now let's see, if we arrested every 815 that was guilty of assault, just how many of them would that be? ;)
*sigh* How true someone has to be seriously hurt or die before anything can be done.
No wonder so many states are relaxing the self-protection laws. Maybe it should be more like the old west, at least people understood right from wrong and the need to take care of yourself.
But then people shouldn't go to jail for a simple slap or a little fight either.
So in this case it's a real balance and wisdom is needed.
You can't judge the situation on the island the same way you can actions that happen in a normal developed society. It's like that soccer team that crashed in the mountains, and ate some of the other passengers to survive. Back in society, that is a crime. But they did what was necessary for their survival.
True, but if they had killed someone to eat them then it would have been a crime. Action or reaction is the key here. They need rules though, at this point they can steal, kill, or do nearly anything with out the group as whole stepping in. What I am I saying, forty some people crashed and thirty some immediately turned into livestock content to chew thier cuds all day.
It seems to me that 9 times out of 10, Locke let's people make their own choices. If they don't want what he's selling, then that's their choice. It's only occasionally, when someone's actions are affecting/endangering the rest of the group, that he lays the smack down on them:
I have a real problem with that but am in a difficult position, I believe in personal rights to the nth degree but also know that we sometimes need our asses firmly kicked. Motivation is what swings it, and I think he fell short.
Since Boone stayed buddies with Locke after that, I guess he didn't see it that way. ;)
Boone was a very good looking guy with a heart of gold, but alas he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer somtimes.
I don't think it's quite the same thing. In the context of this show, the things revealed by "the island" (or whatever you want to call it) clearly have a basis in reality. The island imparts information or "miracles" that can be impirically proven. It healed Locke's legs and Rose's cancer, it showed Locke where a real plane crashed, showed Eko the question mark, hinted at the importance of the hatch, hinted to Hurley that Walt was a missing kid, and apparently engineered Boone's death specifically so Desmond would live to turn the key. To me that says there's an intelligent design behind this "force." It ain't just some crazy mumbo-jumbo island voodoo froo-froo.
We may always disagee here. I think the Island heightens awareness in a way most people never experience. Many scientifc experments have shown some people have a predisposition to pyschic phenomenon. Out of all the research has emerge a theory all of us has latent ability. Dharma studied ESP It could be they found a way or to increase that in people. But it could be an Isaland anomaly that releases it.
I think some of the Dharma people are capable of focusing thier abilities, and they're after the ones better at, like Walt.
But I believe most of the odd experiences comes from the mind of the person , and I do think a form of clairvoyance is in play here.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one too. We simply have totally different interpretations of Locke's motivations. From my point of view, Locke never wanted anything bad to happen to Boone. He yelled at him to get out of the plane before it fell, he took what he thought was the best course of action to save him when it fell, and then he banged his fists against the hatch asking why his vision betrayed him.
No I don't think he wanted Boone to be hurt, he did try to stop him. But I think he chose wrongly when the worst happened. To me his greatest fault is his selfish control over others, his unwillingness to put the well being of someone else above his desires.
I don't know. Maybe something about the area he was left in. Didn't Eko and Locke camp out at a specific place because they were waiting for further instructions?
I don't remember, I'll have to check that.
Hey, you were the one that set the "ordinary wooded area" danger conditions.
Did I? I thought I was clear about referring to jungles ,serious wildernesses etc, not the backyard kind.
Think about good ol' Steve Irwin (God rest his soul). Most animals aren't gonna attack humans unless they are feeling cornered and/or threatened. Boone was in relatively little danger, and that's WITHOUT any sort of enhanced knowledge Locke may have had about the area, via his tracking skills or any ESP communication from the Island.
I'm sorry he's gone, I still can't enjoy the Animal Planet.
I think the monster is dangerous, he wasn't chasing Kate, Jack and Charlie because he wanted to make friends. The problem here is Lockes believes, but at least once that thing scared the hell out of him too. It's killed or something killed the pilot. Polar bears are known man killers, Locke may have chased thier normal prey away, In fact old or infirmed bears will hunt man for food. Remember the Grizzly guy, he and his girl friend were attacked in thier tents and savagely killed. They later found it was an old male and that year food was scarce.
lol. At what point did you sound like a girl? The fierce kitty avatar threw me. As soon as I put "wife" I thought to myself, "I'm probably gonna be wrong on some detail of this, since the Island isn't giving me any visions about it, and Khan is gonna call me on it." :) And ya know what I have to say to that? Khan! Bloodsucker! You've managed to kill just about everyone else, but like a bad marksman, you keep! Missing! The target! :)

:rotfl: Oh and now what in the hell is a woman supposed to sound like mister? I'm not the Stepford wife, Barbie, please-someone-rescue-because I'm helpless-as-a-shoe type. :) I guess you firgured that out by now though.:) The cats suit very well, believe me.
Not his ideas generally, but things the Island tells him to do. And so far, that actually does seem to be the case. Yep, the Island killed Boone, but it also saved Desmond, got the key turned, and possibly has rescue on the way.
I don't think the Island killed Boone, he should have never stayed in a plane in a damn tree. Boones need to be valuable caused him to behave foolishly. By the way I don't think Locke intended for him to die either, at least I hope not, but he was irresponsible and putting his secret first.
Nah, he was just doing what the Island told him to. He was up for that dangerous dynamite carrying too. If he's really as self-centered as you say, wouldn't he have found a tricky way to get somebody else to do that? And why let himself be dragged down a hole before he gets his hatch open?
I think I need to clear this up. My belief that he's self-centered is not about conscious motivation, but rather a self-serving blindness that drives him to use, manipulate or even cause people to be hurt to achieve what he belives is right. In the long run, it's wrong to live that way, because no one has that right over another person. Children, you determine what they can can and can't do.
But once we reach adulthood we have the right to make informed choices,, we should not have underhanded, deceptive, lying tactics, to make us do what someone else beliveves is right. Only the fundamentals expected of every human, no murdering, raping , etc.
Yup! :)The Island kept the area clear. ;) You need smacked for that, and can't arrest me it's a minor asssult and not worth work the paper work right?
Well, I reckon there are three classes of "good intentions" people. You've got those that have good intentions, but are completely insane (like the nazis), you've got people who pretend to have good intentions, but really don't (some music artists, etc.), and finally you've got the people that really do have good intentions, and good reasons for believing the way they do. I think Locke is one of those.
He may be, but as someone who feels an overwhelming need to guard and protect, I have to question the results of his intentions. In the end it's what determines the quality of life for all of us. We can never just let someone, however goodhearted have thier way.
As many times as Sawyer (murdered a guy), Sayid (tortured a guy), Eko (killed a lotta guys), Ana-lucia (murder, again), Kate (more murder!), Charlie (killed in cold blood, kidnapped Sun), Shannon (attempted murder), Michael (cold blooded double murder), Sun (poisoner), Jin (beat the crap out of a guy), or Jack (conspired in torture with Sayid, "mercy" killings)?
Amen. And they should have, if cows could organize, put a halt to the what happens on the Island, at least in thier little group. They can't deal with the past, but they damn well should make sure that they are protected from each other.
This is not a spoiler, just my belief, sooner or later TPTB are going to have to address that issue. They can't just keep running around, stealing, kidnapping, murdering and assulting with no consequences.
Patented confuso-phrasing! :)
Not really. I think there are truely evil people. Insane people who don't really know right from wrong. And people who mean weel but do very wrong things.
The last catagory is probably the broadest, ruuning the gammut from an over protective mother to someone who will do anything to get you to do what they think is best for you.
Locke is the latter, he's extremely wrong, but not with malicious intent. However to the person on the recieving end the results it doesn't really matter.
This has been an interesting conversation. I can see why we differ, we come from two basic points of view, one the Island can guide and the other, the Island can open people to the unseen and it's up to them what they do with it.

[Island Hobo]

It seems Locke has actually always been right in his actions, the only thing that went bad was when he decided to try to stop Eko from pushing the button. Sure sending Sayid after Sawyer was mean and giving him a knife was worse but Sayid didn't torture Saywer because of that, he did it to help Shannon. And Jack approved anyway. once Sayid was calm and willing to accept that it was stupid to find the signal Locke told him about it, Locke usually takes responsibility for his actions but if all the survivors are against him he's clearly gonna cover up what he did because it seemed like he ruined their chance to escape.

I'm with Locke, the only bad decision he made was about not pushing the button. Locke is the one to take the initiative and do what must be done, if there's a big problem Locke's the guy that's gonna make it go away.

[sgtdraino]

No wonder so many states are relaxing the self-protection laws. Maybe it should be more like the old west, at least people understood right from wrong and the need to take care of yourself.

Interesting statement, in many ways the 815s' society on the island is LIKE the old west, right now. Not much in the way of an organized justice system. You've got a few people with more influence than other people, and if things go really badly, they form up a posse.

And, of course, the problem with "old west" justice, is that it's pretty similar to modern day "street justice." The system street thugs tend to resort to. "Somebody messes me over? I ain't callin' the cops. I'm gonna get some of my boys together, and we'll go straighten it out ourselves!"

But then people shouldn't go to jail for a simple slap or a little fight either.

But they do. That's called "Simple Affray." There doesn't have to be a victim and a perpetrator. Group of people fighting in public? They ALL go to jail. Fighting is not allowed.

They need rules though, at this point they can steal, kill, or do nearly anything with out the group as whole stepping in. What I am I saying, forty some people crashed and thirty some immediately turned into livestock content to chew thier cuds all day.

Correct. The problem is that Jack is still only an "informal" leader. They need to go ahead and elect somebody, and then that person can set up an organized system to keep people civilized.

I have a real problem with that but am in a difficult position, I believe in personal rights to the nth degree but also know that we sometimes need our asses firmly kicked. Motivation is what swings it, and I think he fell short.

The biggest problem, is that we really don't know the full extent of the information that is motivating him to take action. We just aren't privy to that. I don't think Locke goes around assaulting people like it's no big deal. I think he only does so when it's a last resort, and there are MAJOR negative consequences if he doesn't take action. I equate the 815s' present situation to a battlefield/combat situation. Things are desperate, they're out in the field, life-and-death decisions must be made. The rights of the individual are reduced in such a situation, compared to normal society, because one mis-step by an individual can cause the deaths of countless others.

We may always disagee here. I think the Island heightens awareness in a way most people never experience.

I would agree, if the visions and such simply conveyed information, which the viewer can use as he likes. But from what I've seen, the visions quite clearly also convey a directive. "Do this." "Open the hatch." "Find the plane." "Help John find the question mark." This willpower to get people to do certain things isn't manifesting out of nowhere. The Island clearly seems to want certain things to be done, certain things to happen. Locke thinks those things are oriented towards the greater good. Is he right? Not sure.

I don't think the Island killed Boone, he should have never stayed in a plane in a damn tree. Boones need to be valuable caused him to behave foolishly.

I actually believe the Island DID kill Boone. The Island wanted Boone to die so that Locke would bang on the hatch, and save Desmond's life. The Island wanted the plane to fall so the way would be clear for Eko to climb up and see the question mark. And I think the Island ultimately did ALL those things to orchestrate a situation where Desmond would turn the key.

I think I need to clear this up. My belief that he's self-centered is not about conscious motivation, but rather a self-serving blindness that drives him to use, manipulate or even cause people to be hurt to achieve what he belives is right.

I just don't see him as a manipulator. I do see him trying to do what's right, and mostly leaving other people alone unless they choose to involve themselves with Locke. And, if somebody does endanger the group, Locke will put the smack down. Blindness that drives him to do what he believes is right? We all (if we're good people) do what we believe is right. What else is there to do? And how is doing what we believe is right, self-serving?

In the long run, it's wrong to live that way, because no one has that right over another person.

Presidents, judges, cops, military, teachers, parents, the list is inumerable.

But once we reach adulthood we have the right to make informed choices,, we should not have underhanded, deceptive, lying tactics, to make us do what someone else beliveves is right.

I recall remarking a LOOOONG time ago that Locke tends to treat the other 815s like children. Saying they aren't ready yet, that they won't understand it. The thing is, he may just be right about that. Suppose there's some horrible illness at the source of the transmission. Suppose Sayid led a team to that source, got infected, led them back, infected everyone else, and THEY ALL DIED.

Now suppose Locke got a vision that tells him some version of this. He knows the 815s aren't going to listen to him, aren't going to NOT go to this transmission source simply because a friggin dream told him it was dangerous. If he tells them, they will not understand. They are not ready to believe in dreams. So he takes action to prevent those deaths. One man gets a bump on the head, and 40-some people live. Yep, one guy's rights got a little violated. But sometimes in desperate situations, that is what is necessary for the group to survive.

This is not a spoiler, just my belief, sooner or later TPTB are going to have to address that issue. They can't just keep running around, stealing, kidnapping, murdering and assulting with no consequences.

I agree. I think at some point they'll build an organized goverment. Maybe their interactions with the Others are the start of this?

Locke is the latter, he's extremely wrong, but not with malicious intent.

I just don't think we have enough information to make that judgement.

This has been an interesting conversation. I can see why we differ, we come from two basic points of view, one the Island can guide and the other, the Island can open people to the unseen and it's up to them what they do with it.

Yep. And we've managed to stay civil, doing it! You haven't yet said:

I will leave you as you left me, as you left HER, at the center of a dead planet. Buried alive... buried alive...

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNN!!!

:)

[Khan]

Interesting statement, in many ways the 815s' society on the island is LIKE the old west, right now. Not much in the way of an organized justice system. You've got a few people with more influence than other people, and if things go really badly, they form up a posse.
They haven't really formed anything to deal with each other. Every group has been in some ways an attempt to rescue Brat Boy or his idiot father. Other than that, Sayid and Jack tortures, what the hell, a man gets stabbed, what the hell, Sawyer takes everything he gets to first, what the hell, the doctor/leader blackmails, what the hell. They ignore everything.
And, of course, the problem with "old west" justice, is that it's pretty similar to modern day "street justice." The system street thugs tend to resort to. "Somebody messes me over? I ain't callin' the cops. I'm gonna get some of my boys together, and we'll go straighten it out ourselves!"
Certainly there were abuses galore. But it was a different era, it wasn't so damn much about ego. Yeah there'd be the ass who killed someone for giving him what he thought was a wrong look, that will always be, but there was a much stronger, clear cut sense of right and wrong.
I despise the street thug mentality, and the perpetuation of it through music, etc. I'm not talking about the modern idea of "street juctice" loved by gangs, but rather a sense of taking care of ones self and your own when it is warranted. I'm watching to see how the new laws in Florida play a out about being able to shoot in self defense. It can be very good or very bad. The real problem is you're dead in some cases if your only option is to run, the type you mentioned will kill in a blink of an eye while the victum trying to figure out if it'll be justifiable shooting. Or it's abused by those who wanted to off someone anyway.
Most of time they not after someone who did them wrong, they're out after something that doesn't belong to them or to do something to some innocent person.
But they do. That's called "Simple Affray." There doesn't have to be a victim and a perpetrator. Group of people fighting in public? They ALL go to jail. Fighting is not allowed.
Didn't you just indicate it's not something you always arrest people for?
Correct. The problem is that Jack is still only an "informal" leader. They need to go ahead and elect somebody, and then that person can set up an organized system to keep people civilized.
True, he's wasn't even elected so to speak, they looked to him because he took charge , medically. And people still look up to doctors, business men, etc. What I don't understand is why in hell don't they think, observe and deal with thier leaders when it becomes clear it's needed.
But I guess if people did that dirty campaigns, smearing your opponant, not addressing the issues, etc, would never fly in election years.
I equate the 815s' present situation to a battlefield/combat situation. Things are desperate, they're out in the field, life-and-death decisions must be made. The rights of the individual are reduced in such a situation, compared to normal society, because one mis-step by an individual can cause the deaths of countless others.
Battlefields, good, that I understand. It's not really though, Locke was not facing combat, he was facing his dream, the one that was thwarted in Australia. He found a hatch, he wanted to control what was happening because he had been looking for a purpose. He sought that purpose in Aborigine beliefs, and the sudden ESP jolt made sealed it for him.
I would agree, if the visions and such simply conveyed information, which the viewer can use as he likes. But from what I've seen, the visions quite clearly also convey a directive. "Do this." "Open the hatch." "Find the plane." "Help John find the question mark." This willpower to get people to do certain things isn't manifesting out of nowhere. The Island clearly seems to want certain things to be done, certain things to happen. Locke thinks those things are oriented towards the greater good. Is he right? Not sure.
Was it the Island or Desmond? Since I think the Island is merely a conduit for psychic power how do we know Desmond's inner being wasn't sending out desperate signals?
I actually believe the Island DID kill Boone. The Island wanted Boone to die so that Locke would bang on the hatch, and save Desmond's life. The Island wanted the plane to fall so the way would be clear for Eko to climb up and see the question mark. And I think the Island ultimately did ALL those things to orchestrate a situation where Desmond would turn the key.

Why didn't it just knock the plane out of the tree before they got there? Or have the monster do it? It moved the front section of thier plane with no problem.
Presidents, judges, cops, military, teachers, parents, the list is inumerable.
Do you advocate those people making personal relationship judgements for adults? Or that they should lie, decieve, or manipulate you? Should they have the right to deal with your emotional attachments, when they are not breaking any law, only getting it the way of thier personal quests?
I recall remarking a LOOOONG time ago that Locke tends to treat the other 815s like children. Saying they aren't ready yet, that they won't understand it. The thing is, he may just be right about that. Suppose there's some horrible illness at the source of the transmission. Suppose Sayid led a team to that source, got infected, led them back, infected everyone else, and THEY ALL DIED.
Now suppose Locke got a vision that tells him some version of this. He knows the 815s aren't going to listen to him, aren't going to NOT go to this transmission source simply because a friggin dream told him it was dangerous. If he tells them, they will not understand. They are not ready to believe in dreams. So he takes action to prevent those deaths. One man gets a bump on the head, and 40-some people live. Yep, one guy's rights got a little violated. But sometimes in desperate situations, that is what is necessary for the group to survive.
The suppositions can't be used, there are too many unknowns, we have no reason to believe any of it would have happened.
I'm not ready to believe chanting and sending positive energy toward a conflict will save us all from destruction, but that doesn't mean there are those who don't. I would not tolerate them interfering with my life because of thier beliefs. And if they had the influence to disband the military someone would get thier ass kicked.
Locke wants to be there, he's decided everyone else belongs there too.
I agree. I think at some point they'll build an organized goverment. Maybe their interactions with the Others are the start of this?
More than likely it'll be because TPTB can't explain how so many people turn into brain dead zombies. You can't get a group of four or five to people to agree on where to have lunch without a discussion, yet this group lets three or for decide thier very fates without any imput.
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNN!!!
You had to go there didn't you, you couldn't resist. We're going to have to meet in therories, I haven't had the time to go there lately but that's waht this is all about.
Still I like the old Locke, I wouldn't trust him and would probably whack the crap out of him if pulled his act on me, but I hope he gets back to his hunter status. Hatch Locke was pathetic, maybe because I hate to be cooped up and it was like watching a wild bird in a cage, somethings should never be.

[sgtdraino]

Didn't you just indicate it's not something you always arrest people for?

If I see 'em, they go to jail.

What I don't understand is why in hell don't they think, observe and deal with thier leaders when it becomes clear it's needed.

It's easier to go along. And, plus, this is just a TV show. TPTB make certain allowances for plot development.

Was it the Island or Desmond? Since I think the Island is merely a conduit for psychic power how do we know Desmond's inner being wasn't sending out desperate signals?

Hard to imagine Desmond was telepathically telling Eko to help John find the question mark, to get the printout to show Desmond what he didn't even know about. That's awfully indirect ESP!

Why didn't it just knock the plane out of the tree before they got there? Or have the monster do it? It moved the front section of thier plane with no problem.

Got me! I guess it doesn't work like that.

Do you advocate those people making personal relationship judgements for adults? Or that they should lie, decieve, or manipulate you?

It all depends on the circumstances. If the stakes are high enough, yes.

Should they have the right to deal with your emotional attachments, when they are not breaking any law,

Hey, in a very real sence, there IS no law on the island that we know of. Whose jurisdiction are they under?

only getting it the way of thier personal quests?

I still don't see this as a personal thing. Locke believes he is doing what is best for the 815s as a whole.

The suppositions can't be used, there are too many unknowns, we have no reason to believe any of it would have happened.

That's kinda my point. We don't have enough information to prove things either way. There are simply too many unknowns to know for sure whether Locke is doing what is best, or whether he is deluded. We simply don't know. Both of our arguments are based on suppositions.

You had to go there didn't you, you couldn't resist. We're going to have to meet in therories, I haven't had the time to go there lately but that's waht this is all about.
Still I like the old Locke, I wouldn't trust him and would probably whack the crap out of him if pulled his act on me, but I hope he gets back to his hunter status. Hatch Locke was pathetic, maybe because I hate to be cooped up and it was like watching a wild bird in a cage, somethings should never be.

Amen! :)

[Khan]

If I see 'em, they go to jail.
Then your boy would be in the pokey, along with most of the cast.
It's easier to go along. And, plus, this is just a TV show. TPTB make certain allowances for plot development.
No no no, shoddy writing is not allowed on Lost. They didn't get to be where they are by being a run of the mill show.
I understand plot arcs, and time constraints, but a line or two here or there to show they are human not cattle would go a long way. They did it once with Artz who, in the middle of his blabbering, pointed out some didn't like how Kate got the best pieces of wreakage, etc.
Hard to imagine Desmond was telepathically telling Eko to help John find the question mark, to get the printout to show Desmond what he didn't even know about. That's awfully indirect ESP!
That's not what I'm saying, each of those things are separate. Desmond would have only been the source of the need to get into the hatch.
If the Island increases ESP abilities each of those things stand alone. Locke has an uncanny knack for reading people, he may have always been intuitive, but I think he's one who will have a more powerful reception to the "force" that heightens natural leanings in that area.
It all depends on the circumstances. If the stakes are high enough, yes.
I can't see it that way, I was instilled with a tough code of behavior in such things. It's not about judging when someone, or when I fail to live up it, but it does mean acknowledging it's wrong.
Hey, in a very real sence, there IS no law on the island that we know of. Whose jurisdiction are they under?
They weren't raised by wolves, they know right from wrong and every human society has basic rules.
I still don't see this as a personal thing. Locke believes he is doing what is best for the 815s as a whole.
I believe it would be good for the nation if all political parties could not raise money for campaigns and the public paid for limited air time, newspaper coverage, etc and each candidate had to state what they believed and stood for. There would be nightly or nightly debates, without taboo topics, conducted by average citizens, like a jury pool. I think that would be good for all, but I don't think most would agree or that it'll happen. I wouldn't have the right to for it on anyone by deception or any other form of trickery.

[Island Hobo]

Why didn't it just knock the plane out of the tree before they got there? Or have the monster do it? It moved the front section of thier plane with no problem.

Because then Locke wouldn't have went back to the hatch and saved Desmond's life in turn saving them ALL. Boone was meant to die, it was his destiny the season final proved that beyond any doubt.

[Khan]

That's one theory, but how do we know if Locke had not hid the hatch they wouldn't have went in it sooner and spared Desmond from reach the point of despair in the first place?

[Island Hobo]

Because then Eko wouldn't have been around when Locke decided not to push the button and they would have all died, but the island sent Eko to replace Locke until Desmond returned. How I see it was Boone's life on and even before the island was a huge chain of events that led him to Locke and the hatch, Locke making him see that letting go of Shannon was right and once everything was set it gave Locke the final message and brought them to the plane which led to Boone's death and Desmond's salvation. In turn saving Locke's faith which led him into the hatch to continue to the push the button to save all their lives until Desmond returned to end it all.

[sgtdraino]

Then your boy would be in the pokey, along with most of the cast.

Actually, he wouldn't, because I don't have jurisdiction over Lost island. We haven't yet met anybody who does, except MAYBE Kelvin. For me to restrain or punish Locke for something he does, I'd be no more or less guilty of violating the law than he is.

No no no, shoddy writing is not allowed on Lost. They didn't get to be where they are by being a run of the mill show.

Hey, I think Stephen King's Dark Tower series is excellently written, but even excellently written things have some plot holes if you peel enough layers off of them.

That's not what I'm saying, each of those things are separate. Desmond would have only been the source of the need to get into the hatch.

Then who wanted Eko to help John find the question mark? And why did it communicate with him through the images of dead people, Ana and Yemi?

If the Island increases ESP abilities each of those things stand alone. Locke has an uncanny knack for reading people, he may have always been intuitive, but I think he's one who will have a more powerful reception to the "force" that heightens natural leanings in that area.

It's a theory. Based on supposition. Not enough information!

They weren't raised by wolves, they know right from wrong and every human society has basic rules.

But the 815s don't really have a society yet. There are no rules, at least not formal ones. And without rules for the group to obey, then it is left to individuals to take action to protect everyone, even if the individuals have not been invested with any formal authority to do so.

I believe it would be good for the nation...

Among other things, I support consecutive term limits. By which I mean politicians cannot hold a certain office for more than a set number of consecutive terms. Then they gotta take a break and give somebody else a chance. I think the voting public has too great a tendency to go along with some old guy who's held the same office for years, and has name recognition. I think we should build a mechanism into the system that creates change. And heck, if the old guy really was the best man for the job, he can run again in a couple of years.

That's one theory, but how do we know if Locke had not hid the hatch they wouldn't have went in it sooner and spared Desmond from reach the point of despair in the first place?

We don't know if they would have, we don't know if they wouldn't have. Not a whole lot of point in arguing over answers to questions that HAVE no answers. Not enough information! :)

[Khan]

Actually, he wouldn't, because I don't have jurisdiction over Lost island. We haven't yet met anybody who does, except MAYBE Kelvin. For me to restrain or punish Locke for something he does, I'd be no more or less guilty of violating the law than he is.
I wasn't referring to you specifically, only that what he and a host of others have done is criminal. But have to disagree, someone who is responsible has to step up when these things happen or the last man standing will be the most evil one.
Hey, I think Stephen King's Dark Tower series is excellently written, but even excellently written things have some plot holes if you peel enough layers off of them.
I don't expect perfection of course, but these are not little holes they're huge gaps are gaps in an otherwise well written show. No one wants Lost to be like a dumbass daytime drama or a cheap Sci-fi channel made for TV movie.
Then who wanted Eko to help John find the question mark? And why did it communicate with him through the images of dead people, Ana and Yemi?
It doesn't have to be a "who". But that's where we are polar opposites. You feel in a single intelligence, I feel it's something that taps into ESP.
It's a theory. Based on supposition. Not enough information!
Well that's true for most of this, including the Island having plans and being able to direct anyone.
But the 815s don't really have a society yet. There are no rules, at least not formal ones. And without rules for the group to obey, then it is left to individuals to take action to protect everyone, even if the individuals have not been invested with any formal authority to do so.
Splitting hairs, technically if a Lostie murdered or raped someone there they haven't broken an Island law because no law has been written (as far as we know). But who would deny they where wrong? And I mean real first degree murder. Just because they dropped out of the sky doesn't excuse them from behaving responsibly.
Did you think it was right for the Others to kidnap a pregnant woman, almost cut her baby out, hang Charlie, and kill Steve/Scott?
Or if they get back some of the kids and one of them is child molester and takes up his old habits? The first thought anyone would have is not they have no law so not wrong.
My point is they can't be excused because there is no written document saying don't do such and such. It takes time to form a true socity, and people can't be allowed to let out every inner demon until it happens.
Among other things, I support consecutive term limits. By which I mean politicians cannot hold a certain office for more than a set number of consecutive terms. Then they gotta take a break and give somebody else a chance. I think the voting public has too great a tendency to go along with some old guy who's held the same office for years, and has name recognition. I think we should build a mechanism into the system that creates change. And heck, if the old guy really was the best man for the job, he can run again in a couple of years.
I wasn't talking about term limits at all I was thinking mostly about campaigning, and the need hold the elected accountable.
Personally I want the best person to do the job, and I've known elderly people who put to shame some half thier age.
We don't know if they would have, we don't know if they wouldn't have. Not a whole lot of point in arguing over answers to questions that HAVE no answers. Not enough information! :)
Agreed, we'll have to meet here again when or maybe I should if...no make that a big IF they ever tell us a damn thing before the last episode of the last year of Lost.

[Manifold Intensity]

I voted "Dangerous Boob." I'll never forget his classic killer line to Eko:

"I was wrong."

Duh!! :nanabobo:

[mjgill85]

Definitely island mystic :)

[Island Hobo]

Definitely island mystic :)

Amen

[john_locke]

Island Mysitc!!!!!!!!

[Dagolu]

both, he's a dangerous mystical island boob

[Brian]

Well said Dag. Reminds me of what someone else said above. ;)

[sgtdraino]

Where do we stand on this now?

As of last night's episode, we have a bit more information on Locke's actions at the end of Season 3,

We now know that the injury Locke inflicted on Naomi was not immediately fatal, and took hours to kill her. Had she sought medical attention, or had Jack examined her, she might even have been saved. Locke may have even intended for that, though it is impossible to know for sure.

It also looks quite probable that Locke never seriously considered shooting Jack, that he was just bluffing.

We are also starting to see Locke exhibit a much higher level of candidness about what he's experienced:

Locke: All I did... all I have ever done, has been in the best interest of all of us. I know I... I have a lot of explaining to do... but I never did anything to hurt any of you. I even risked my life to tell you that there was a traitor in your midst.

Sawyer: Why are we wastin' our time goin' to some shack, anyway?
Locke: Because we're supposed to.
Sawyer: Like you were supposed to throw a knife into that Naomi chick's back?
Locke: Uh-huh.
Sawyer: You mind tellin' us who you're gettin' your orders from, Colonel Kurtz?
Locke: I got 'em from Walt.
Sawyer: What the hell you mean, you saw Walt? In a dream?
Locke: No dream. It was Walt. Only... taller.
Sawyer: Okay... what exactly did Walt tell you?
Locke: He said I had work to do. That I had to stop this woman, Naomi, from bringing the rest of her people here.
Sawyer: What, you didn't ask any follow-up questions?
Locke: Ben had shot me and left me for dead. Walt saved my life. So I pretty much took him at his word.
Sawyer: He shot you... yet here you are, fit is a fiddle, trompin' through the jungle.
Locke: (pulls up shirt) The bullet went in one side, came out the other. I'd probably be dead if I still had a kidney there. Anything else?

Thoughts?

[Brian]

I'm sticking with Island Mystic, of the two options available. Sure he's faltered along the way but when hasn't everyone from time to time. I believe that in his mind he's doing the best for everyone's safety and survival. Granted, he could use a little work in the communications department, but that's a flaw many people have, not just Locke.

Considering the knife wound took as long as it did to kill Naomi, I don't believe killing her was his initial intention. Maybe he assumed Jack would check her condition and not leave her laying there for hours until she finally crawled off on her own.

That said, I still believe that ultimately, the fate of everyone will be determined by Locke and Jack, faith and science.

ETA - I also don't believe he would have pulled that trigger in "Confirmed Dead" when confronting Ben. Locke, unlike Jack apparently, doesn't have a desire to kill anyone, regardless of what they may do.

[Homer Noodleman]

He's getting stupider by the day.

Once again, until he comprehends his own story about Norman Croucher he'll never be anything but a hubris drenched loser.

On the island he's being led around by the nose by something that can take away his ability to walk at the slightest failure by him. We already saw that threat to him once, and his reaction to it was craven. He'll rationalize the fact that he is selling himself down the river to live out one of his many fantasies, and he'll lead himself and those around him into disaster as a result.

"Norman Croucher. Norman Croucher, double amputee, no legs. He climbed to the top of Mt. Everest. Why? It was his destiny."

No Locke, it wasn't destiny that got Croucher to the top of Everest.

[sgtdraino]

No Locke, it wasn't destiny that got Croucher to the top of Everest.

lol. Well, actually, it wasn't anything that got Croucher to the top of Everest, since Croucher never actually climbed that one. :)

But I think you are missing the point. Locke wasn't stating what got Croucher up the mountain, he was stating why Croucher tried to do it. Because Croucher believed it was his destiny to be a mountain climber.

[RangerMel]

Boob! :mad:

[Lostwithlocke]

Dangerous boob...what a bizarre phrase... :s

[in_a_days]

Dangerous boob...what a bizarre phrase... :s

A greater terror I can not imagine. :D

[Serafina]

Definately Island Mystic...I'd trust Locke over anyone else on that island.

[sweetsunray]

Seems to me that Jacob doesn't trust Locke anymore:nanabobo: Jacob prefers Hurley these days. Might have to do with the fact he didn't prevent the freighters from coming: couldn't shoot Jack, had no influence at all over Jack.

[sgtdraino]

Seems to me that Jacob doesn't trust Locke anymore:nanabobo: Jacob prefers Hurley these days. Might have to do with the fact he didn't prevent the freighters from coming: couldn't shoot Jack, had no influence at all over Jack.

That was definitely odd, not sure what to make about that yet. Right now I'm inclined to go with what others have said, that Jacob was hiding because he doesn't want a whole crowd of people coming to see him. Hopefully we'll get some clarification on this in the future.

A side note, I just want to say HURRAY!!! because Locke FINALLY HAS HIS KNIFE BACK!!! :)

Locke with no knife just doesn't feel right to me, and it's been several episodes with him lugging that empty sheath. Finally, he's got his Tigershark back!

He still didn't have it when they tried to visit Jacob, but later in the episode, when Locke gets the drop on Sayid, he's got it back again. They must have taken a little stroll by the tree Naomi jumped out of, and picked it up! :)

[sweetsunray]

Didn't Locke have a whole case of knifes?

[sgtdraino]

Didn't Locke have a whole case of knifes?

In theory, but we haven't seen that case since Season 1. Plus, the knife that Locke is now carrying is a SOG Tigershark, the exact same model he threw into Naomi's back. Either it's the same knife, or one just like it. And unlike Season 1's Master Bowie, the SOG is an expensive knife. It is unlikely Locke would be carrying around extras.

[Television]

Team Locke till I die. Or him whichever happens first.

[Homer Noodleman]

Where are all the Locke fans today? Out smashing dishes in frustration like their hero? :p

Well, once again Locke shows his true boobish colors. He really hasn't the slightest idea what he is doing, but that doesn't stop him from being convinced he knows better than everybody else.

Hmm... gas mask? Urban target? Wonder what that could possibly lead to? He is so gonna get his group slaughtered as he sits around in Ben's house and hones his gourmet cooking skills. I feel sorry for the castaways that trailed after him on his fool's errand.

[Brian]

You rang? Why bother answering everyone? I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change mine so we can just agree to disagree and I can get back to other things like capture HD pics of Kate in her undies from the episode. :)

[sgtdraino]

Where are all the Locke fans today? Out smashing dishes in frustration like their hero? :p

Come now, Homer. You must learn to be less predictable! Sure, Locke had a weak episode. I have utterly no doubts at all that he will kick ass again in the future, though. :D

[RangerMel]

Locke has pretty much acted like an idiot since season 1. I can't believe anyone actually likes him. :mad:

[RangerMel]

I was really rooting for Locke at the beginning of this season, but from what we've seen so far... it doesn't seem like these people are dangerous enough to justify knifing someone in the back. :mad:

[sgtdraino]

it doesn't seem like these people are dangerous enough to justify knifing someone in the back. :mad:

What do you think now? :)

Wow, I was reading some of the posts on page one, and this is a really good thread!

[RangerMel]

What do you think now? :)

Wow, I was reading some of the posts on page one, and this is a really good thread!

You still don't go around knifing people in the back. It's like totally rude and stuff.

Maybe Naomi was as harmless as Frank? We'll never know now.

[Susan B Anthony]

Maybe Naomi was as harmless as Frank? We'll never know now.

Or maybe as harmless as Keamy.

[DR76]

I think that Locke is a combination of both. Sometimes, he can be right. But . . . Locke had a bad habit of forcing his help upon others, especially when they have not asked for his help. I'm watching "Special" right now. I can't believe I just saw him not only lecture Michael on how to raise Walt, but teach the latter how to throw a knife - without Michael's permission.

[sgtdraino]

I think that Locke is a combination of both. Sometimes, he can be right. But . . . Locke had a bad habit of forcing his help upon others, especially when they have not asked for his help. I'm watching "Special" right now. I can't believe I just saw him not only lecture Michael on how to raise Walt, but teach the latter how to throw a knife - without Michael's permission.

Perhaps he thought Michael knew where his son was. Remember, after Michael demanded Locke keep his distance, Locke told Walt he was not to come to him again without his dad's permission.

[DR76]

Perhaps he thought Michael knew where his son was. Remember, after Michael demanded Locke keep his distance, Locke told Walt he was not to come to him again without his dad's permission.


Yeah, but that happened AFTER Michael told him to keep his distance. Before that, Locke was teaching Walt on how to throw a knife. And you DON'T teach 10 year-olds how to handle a knife without the parent's permission. Or force your advice on how to handle said 10 year-old down the parent's throat. Thankfully, Locke eventually adhered to Michael's wishes.

[Maitiu]

Why? If someone is a poor parent or struggling to adjust to being an active parent, isn't it in the child's interest to try to assist the parent?

And, honestly, is letting a kid throw a knife at a tree really that bad. They do stuff like that in Boy Scouts. Maybe not that exactly, but they certainly are taught to use things like bows and firearms. Is a knife really any worse?

[sgtdraino]

It's okay, Walt had a note from his mom giving Locke permission to teach him. :D