A Rat in a Cage, A Jack in the Box and Kate in a dress?(S3E4 UPDATE)

[Crandyman]

Three people captured. Three seperate confinements. Three different paths.

I think it's obvious now that Jack, Kate and Sawyer were all chosen for a specific reason. Their captivity is more than one of protection or punishment. This is proven by the way each one of them was seperated and treated. If detention was the sole purpose a single pit or holding cell would do just fine. On the contrary though, each of them was placed in a very different environment.

Jack: We find out it was a large tank for sharks and dolphins. It was dark, dank and quiet, leaving Jack completely isolated and trapped. The cameras and intercom made Jacks paranoia exponentially greater. It was a perfect way to 'break' Jack. This type of isolation made him completely dependent on someone else. This happened to be Juliet. She gave up information in order to 'reach' Jack. She gave up enough factual information that no one else could know on the island, that she had gained Jacks attention (trust wouldn't be appropriate here). Whether or not Juliet actually knew if Sarah was happy or not is completely irrelevant. The relevant fact is that Jack believes her and THAT is the first step in controlling someone.

Kate: Kate is treated, well....like a lady. She is given a shower, shampoo and a new dress. I can only imagine this would be the Others initial attempt at control. She is then led out to the beach to have a seemingly nice meal under reasonably calm conditions. By putting Kate in new clothes and giving her coffee, the Others hope to make her more comfortable which in turn would also make her more vulnerable and less resistant to change. Treating her like a savage would only encourage her to continue to act like one and would only hinder their goal.

Sawyer: In this episode, Sawyer has very limited interaction with the Others. He wakes up in an animal cage very similar to ones used to train gorrillas and chimpanzees. There is a boy, Carl, in a similar cage nearby which Sawyer tries to talk to. The kid doesn't respond until after Sawyer hits the "food" button for the second time. Carl tells Sawyer not to do it again and Sawyer responds in his typical fashion only to be shocked and thrown against the cage. Like a rat in a cage going after the cheese? Is this the best way to 'get' to Sawyer? Treat him like an animal? Was his escape attempt staged? In similar animal experiments after systematic treatment and punishments for behaviors escape is no longer entered in the mind. Is this the first step the Others have taken into changing Sawyer?

[cinderellabop]

Nice breakdown, Crandyman. I have nothing to add; I just wanted to tell you it was nice work.

[jonathanc1111]

I could be wrong, but I think that the reason Sawyer was placed in the cage is the Others did not think that they would be able to speak to Sawyer at all. He would be defiant more openly than the other two prisoners. They were attempting to get information from him by putting someone else in his situation ie the guy in the other cell.

[truffula]

I agree. :)
Very well broken down. It seems quite apparent that each of the captives was taken for a specific reason, and will be manipulated accordingly to achieve whatever the goal is for each individual.

[Z054J]

Glad to see I wasn't alone in my thinking.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Hi Crandyman,

My Boyfriend and I were discussing the same thing this morning. It's like each skinner box was custom made for them.

I think the end goal, is custom designed psychological breakdown - in order to rebuild them. But into what?

It's why they are not in the same kind of cell. Kate's psychological skinner box started when she put on the dress, not when she was put in the cage. But I think "feeling like a lady" would feel very uncomfortable to a tomboy who would rather wear pants and durable shoes.

Part of observing Sawyer is not in how fast he gets the food, like a bear, but how he interacts with Kate when a situation is set up for Sawyer to project a story of what happended to her. What we find out is how nurturing Sawyer is. He gives her the bear food that he got shocked getting.

Jack's box is that he is not control and separated from his flock. What is the breaking point where Jack goes insane? I'm hoping he turns the tables on them, by tracing the camera wire back to the observation room.

[Crandyman]

I am still wondering if the so-called "escape" attempt facilitated by Carl was staged. Did they want to see what Sawyer would do if released?

Did anyone else get reminded of the movie "Saw" when we first see Jack in the tank?

[Z054J]

Yeah, I think it was a set-up.

[DreaminLost]

I found it interesting that four men, some of them armed, escorted Kate to her breakfast with Fenry.

Juliet alone was the one taking care of Jack.

That speaks volumes to which is tougher.

[rvturnage]

I found it interesting that four men, some of them armed, escorted Kate to her breakfast with Fenry.

Juliet alone was the one taking care of Jack.

That speaks volumes to which is tougher.

Of couse, three of those four men weren't on duty...they just wanted a good look at CleanedUpKate. :pant:

[Crandyman]

I found it interesting that four men, some of them armed, escorted Kate to her breakfast with Fenry.

Juliet alone was the one taking care of Jack.

That speaks volumes to which is tougher.

Actually, I think it has more to do with personalities than anything else. Jack tends to wear his emotions on his sleeve. If it looks like he will comply then he probably will. Kate, as we have seen with the US Marshall, is a bit shady.

[cinderellabop]

I found it interesting that four men, some of them armed, escorted Kate to her breakfast with Fenry.

Juliet alone was the one taking care of Jack.

That speaks volumes to which is tougher.

While I actually wouldn't be surprised if that was true (that Kate is tougher), I don't think that's the reason Kate had an armed guard to take her to the beach. The difference here is that Kate was out in the open--and she is, to borrow an episode title, "born to run." She was a flight risk. Had Jack been take out into the open in the same way, however, I think he would have been equally likely to try to make a run for it, and he would have been likely to have an armed guard as well. Note that when Kate was in the locker room setting, the only one there was "Mr. Friendly."

[ZigbertToshicus]

Great questions. I don't know about Kate, but I would add that:

1. Juliet's treatment of Jack was designed to make him surrender control -- something that gets to the core of his personality issues. He can't eat until he agrees to abide by a set of protocols imposed by an outside power whose authority he does not want to recognize. In the end, he does this after his attempt to flout the authority does not work. Thwarted, having experienced flashbacks that reinforce his helplessness and inability to control events, and having placed some trust in the new authority figure of Juliet, he agrees to her protocol of sitting against the wall as she delivers his food. This is the first time I've seen him surrender. I think this was the objective of his treatment and Juliet succeeded in breaking him down in no time flat. Someone should offer her a job at Guantanamo -- I hear that quite a bit of technique is left up to the interrogator's 'discretion' these days.

2. I think Sawyer is being set up to be conned. Carl is a plant and the Others will try to get Sawyer to trust him so they can use him as a tool to break him too. I'm not sure how exactly, since it's so earlier and so little was shown of his experience in this Jack-centric episode, but I think that's the direction it's going.

With Kate, I'm sure it's something similar, as Crandyman says -- a customized incarceration experience designed to be maximally effective in light of her personal history and issues.

BTW, I forget, what did Christian say to Jack - the words that echoed in the intercom? May tie in here.

[IMLOSTRU?]

I found it interesting that four men, some of them armed, escorted Kate to her breakfast with Fenry.

Juliet alone was the one taking care of Jack.

That speaks volumes to which is tougher.

No Jack was in a sealed room with no way out. They were leading Kate in the open.

[jd_21]

Great questions. I don't know about Kate, but I would add that:

1. Juliet's treatment of Jack was designed to make him surrender control -- something that gets to the core of his personality issues. He can't eat until he agrees to abide by a set of protocols imposed by an outside power whose authority he does not want to recognize. In the end, he does this after his attempt to flout the authority does not work. Thwarted, having experienced flashbacks that reinforce his helplessness and inability to control events, and having placed some trust in the new authority figure of Juliet, he agrees to her protocol of sitting against the wall as she delivers his food. This is the first time I've seen him surrender. I think this was the objective of his treatment and Juliet succeeded in breaking him down in no time flat. Someone should offer her a job at Guantanamo -- I hear that quite a bit of technique is left up to the interrogator's 'discretion' these days.

2. I think Sawyer is being set up to be conned. Carl is a plant and the Others will try to get Sawyer to trust him so they can use him as a tool to break him too. I'm not sure how exactly, since it's so earlier and so little was shown of his experience in this Jack-centric episode, but I think that's the direction it's going.

With Kate, I'm sure it's something similar, as Crandyman says -- a customized incarceration experience designed to be maximally effective in light of her personal history and issues.

BTW, I forget, what did Christian say to Jack - the words that echoed in the intercom? May tie in here.


I think the con of Sawyer began with Carl, but the key to it will be Kate.

[IMLOSTRU?]

While I actually wouldn't be surprised it that was true (that Kate is tougher), I don't think that's the reason Kate had an armed guard to take her to the beach. The difference here is that Kate was out in the open--and she is, to borrow an episode title, "born to run." She was a flight risk. Had Jack been take out into the open in the same way, however, I think he would have been equally likely to try to make a run for it, and he would have been likely to have an armed guard as well. Note that when Kate was in the locker room setting, the only one there was "Mr. Friendly."

Right. Also I want to comment on dressing Kate up. Did you see the look on Sawyers face? Kate looked beautiful. They did that to her to start the love triangle. Clean and pretty gets juices flowing more than dirty, beat up and smelly.

[Crandyman]

he agrees to her protocol of sitting against the wall as she delivers his food. This is the first time I've seen him surrender.

Sit boy. Come on boy, sit. Sit boy. Good boy, now you can have your treat.

It's basic training of an animal. Positive reinforcement for good behaviors. Hence the ironic punishment Sawyer endurs for pushing the food button for the third time. It's all a system of control.

[Crandyman]

Right. Also I want to comment on dressing Kate up. Did you see the look on Sawyers face? Kate looked beautiful. They did that to her to start the love triangle. Clean and pretty gets juices flowing more than dirty, beat up and smelly.

Thats a great idea. This could be supported by the line Mr. Friendly uses when Kate asks about Sawyer and Jack. He responds with a query about why Sawyer and Jack and not Jack and Sawyer. Is Kate the bait, so to speak?

[caldric]

I don't think Sawyer's escape attempt was the only set-up. I think Jack's escape attempt was set up as well. We saw how easily Juliet knocked Jack out when she needed to...it's hard to believe she could be caught off guard so easily when she brought the food into the cell.

[DreaminLost]

The bait? :confused: Why would they want to start (or further) a love triangle?

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Sit boy. Come on boy, sit. Sit boy. Good boy, now you can have your treat.



But actually, the dog was bad and bashed into her. He let her think he was going to obey her. More interesting was Benry's betrayal to Juliet. Who's controllling whose behavior.

Agree that Sawyer is being conned, including the kid. I don't think they are observing his escape, but how he reacts to Kate. The kid, the escape, was misdirection.

Let's face it. Anywhere on the island is a version of prison whether it's button pushing, or the allusion that you are free and living in a tent. Foreseeing a new discussion on John Locke upcoming. Free will.

[I Like Freckles]

Look! Up in the sky!

Is it a bird (screeching Hurley's name)? No....

Is it a plane (breaking in two at the wrong point of the fuselage)? No...


IT'S CRANDYMAN!!!! (long time no see, my friend!)
[/chitchat threadjack]


Christian said something like "You need to let it go, Jack." Ties in perfectly with the techniques Juliet was using to break him down.

The "escape" scenario with Carl almost certainly had to have been staged. If not, it's just WAY too convenient that Carl finds the means to escape just after Sawyer arrives and is put in the cage across from him.

And I'll also be shocked if cleaned-up Kate isn't part of the Sawyer breakdown plan. Based on the file jacket that Juliette appears to have on Jack, they've likely got similar profiles on the other captives. We've previously seen (The Long Con) that Sawyer has a soft spot for women with whom he feels a connection and who are "dependent" on him. Cleaning up Kate to make de-"Sheena of the Jungle" her persona plays right into that dynamic.

It may also play into Kate's weakness too. She has been on the run and taking care of herself for so long that she's completely incapable of trusting someone else, let alone depending on them to take care of her. The fish biscuit exchange looked to be the beginnings of that defense mechanism breaking down -- she actually accepted help from Sawyer without bristling at the implication that she actually needed the help.

[TheTempest]

I found it interesting that four men, some of them armed, escorted Kate to her breakfast with Fenry.

Juliet alone was the one taking care of Jack.

That speaks volumes to which is tougher.
But at the end Ben comes up to Juliet and says, great work! I believe that Juliet isn't the only one in on breaking down Jack. Ben knew exactly what was going on.

Also Juliet shows Jack his "book of life" (so to speak) They've been watched their whole lives. With any kind of observation of anyone, in due time, you can learn what "breaks" anyone.

Who's to say that Sara wasn't "paid off" to leave Jack, to insure that certain events would/wouldn't come to pass?

[DreaminLost]

Yes, I know that Ben is aware of the psychological breaking-down of Jack, as well as breaking down Kate and Sawyer.

I only meant that it appeared that they thought Kate would be more difficult to handle than Jack.

I don't believe Sarah was 'paid off' to leave Jack.

I acutally thought it appeared that they didn't expect Flight 815 to crash on their island. I no longer think these particular people (our Losties) were manipulated into crashing on the island.

But now that they have, they're going to be used for the purposes of the Others.

Whatever that may be!

[I Like Freckles]

Also Juliet shows Jack his "book of life" (so to speak) They've been watched their whole lives. With any kind of observation of anyone, in due time, you can learn what "breaks" anyone.

Who's to say that Sara wasn't "paid off" to leave Jack, to insure that certain events would/wouldn't come to pass?

The file jacket actually bugged me a bit. All I can say is that it had damn well better have been assembled by some serious private investigating funded by the Hanso Foundation AFTER the crash and AFTER Ethan came back with at least a partial list of the Losties' names. Because if the Others/Dharma/whatever actually HAS been following these people all of their lives, I quit.

A big part of the end of S2 story arc was that the plane crash was completely random -- Desmond just so happened to decide to go follow Kelvin THAT day when the plane just so happened to have radio trouble and be flying over THAT island on its way to Fiji. Even if we take the leap that the pilot or some Oceanic people were in cahoots with the Others and deliberately flew the plane over the island, and that all of the things we've seen in flashbacks that led all of the Losties to be on Flight 815 leaving Sydney on Sept 22, 2004 were somehow orchestrated by the Others, Desmond not pushing the button until after the crash-inducing EM pulse got sent out was still a completely unplanned wild card.

Not to mention that the Others clearly had no idea who was on the plane until Ethan and Goodwin got to the respective camps and got settled in as moles. Note that Benry told them he wanted lists in three days.

[Crandyman]

The fish biscuit exchange looked to be the beginnings of that defense mechanism breaking down -- she actually accepted help from Sawyer without bristling at the implication that she actually needed the help.

This was curious to me. Are we to assume that she didn't eat the breakfast as provided by Ben. I know we see the cuts and bruises on her wrists but was that meant to hint to the audience that she put up a struggle? If she did eat then why would she accept the fish biscuit from Sawyer. Perhaps she didn't want to demoralize him anymore by saying she had a nice quiet brunch on the beach, oh, and with some hot coffee. She recognized how tremendously unselfish his act was and could not do anything other than accept the fish biscuit.

[DreaminLost]

Every time I see the words fish biscuit it makes me chuckle.

I thought it was a nicely done scene--Kate and Sawyer. Subtle yet powerful.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Who's to say that Sara wasn't "paid off" to leave Jack, to insure that certain events would/wouldn't come to pass?

That's a good theory. I hope you develop it into one. It's an interesting idea. Reminds me of when Locke was being conned by Cooper - and then Cooper still buys Locke off - turning him simultaneously into an accomplice. I don't think you were implying that, but it fits into the story.

For me, Sara wanted a way out. It would be way to big of a burden to be married to the guy who saved my life. I wouldn't want to be in either one's shoes in that dynamic.

[I Like Freckles]

Um...



Fish biscuit!

Sorry, couldn't resist.


And Crandy, I had the same thought when Kate answered yes to Sawyer's "you hungry" question. Didn't she just eat? Although I guess we only saw Benry offer her the food. I don't think she actually ate anything before we cut away to Jack or Sawyer in captivity.



And on a slightly related topic, did anyone else expect Benry to pull off a Mission impossible head mask to reveal himself as Jeff Probst when he was sitting at the table? I kept waiting for him to tell Kate that she could have breakfast as soon as she ate 4 deep-fried cockroach larvae. "It's a tribal delicacy here on Craphole Island."

[bigpappyblue]

Part of observing Sawyer is not in how fast he gets the food, like a bear, but how he interacts with Kate when a situation is set up for Sawyer to project a story of what happended to her. What we find out is how nurturing Sawyer is. He gives her the bear food that he got shocked getting.

I'll disagree a little on the oh so "nurturing" sawyer. Kate was scared, crying, very upset, unsure, etc etc. While giving the biscuit met her hunger need, he did nothing to meet her largest need, the emotional one, so I think you can only call him so nurturing. It's expected, cause he's a con-man, and a player, he get's that honest, and I don't believe REALLY knows how to treat a lady. What Kate wanted so desperately to hear was "It's gonna be alright freckles, we're gonna get out of here, don't worry" instead, he gives her the fish biscuit. Bah on the nurturing.

[ZigbertToshicus]

It's basic training of an animal. Positive reinforcement for good behaviors. Totally. I don't think Juliet was truly surprised by Jack's escape attempt. I think it was expected and part of the plan of breaking him down, focusing on his need to control.
"You need to let it go, Jack." Perfect. Uttered by his dad, the only authority figure he has likely ever recognized and the one who let him down and convinced him to never surrender authority again. And this appears right when he is having to decide whether to "let it go" and surrender authority to his captor Juliet. She's a feminine face, since he can't trust masculine faces after his father, and the whole experience of the episode seems engineered to break him down.

Now the question will be whether the Others will be able to build on this momentary surrender on Jack's part and perhaps ultimately turn (enslave) him, or whether his free will will triumph. Yeah, John Locke and the rest. I'm betting on Jack's free will in the long run although, I've got to say, he annoys me and there was something a little satisfying about watching him follow someone else's rules for once.
More interesting was Benry's betrayal to Juliet. Who's controllling whose behavior.Great point. It is clear that, although Jack has surrendered control in this episode, there is a genuine rift between Juliet and Benry. When Jack tries to reassert control over his life, as he inevitably will, it may be possible for him to exploit this division and win Juliet over. He'll certainly try. And the dramatic tension for him over the next several episodes will stem from the question of whether the Others will control him or he will find an opening and escape their control in some way.

And yeah, I agree with others that Kate was put their to influence Sawyer in some as-yet-to-be-determined way. Also, funny that Sawyer's game is fundamentally the same as Jack's (perform trick to receive reward), but the trick is so much stupider and he is so simple-minded as to actually be proud to have complied.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I'll disagree a little on the oh so "nurturing" sawyer. Kate was scared, crying, very upset, unsure, etc etc. While giving the biscuit met her hunger need, he did nothing to meet her largest need, the emotional one, so I think you can only call him so nurturing. It's expected, cause he's a con-man, and a player, he get's that honest, and I don't believe REALLY knows how to treat a lady. What Kate wanted so desperately to hear was "It's gonna be alright freckles, we're gonna get out of here, don't worry" instead, he gives her the fish biscuit. Bah on the nurturing.

I guess it seemed nurturing to me because, for one Kate tends to regress to little girl when she's freaked.

And there's an implication to what happened to her. (not that I think what's happened.) But I think they are trying to get Sawyer to make assumptions about what happended to Kate. And why it's nurturing (comparing Sawyer to Jack) is that Sawyer got calm, and didn't go aggro the way Jack does, yelling and screaming. That would have made her feel worse. Fish biscuit was a gesture. What I hope is that he slipped something into it.

Anyone notice what a nice catch she has. She'd be a good in-fielder.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Also, funny that Sawyer's game is fundamentally the same as Jack's (perform trick to receive reward), but the trick is so much stupider and he is so simple-minded as to actually be proud to have complied.

Name the trick, name the reward.

I think the trick was believing the kid, not the hit the rock on the button. The reward was Kate.

[Smartypants]

I think it was Sawyer giving Kate the only thing that he had that he thought could possibly make her feel better at that moment. Thus, it was pretty sweet.

She looked hungry for the fish biscuit. I don't think she ate Benry's brunch.

I for one, though, would have joined Dharma and done whatever they wanted if, after 2 months on Craphole Island, someone offered me fresh hot french-pressed coffee.

[bigpappyblue]

I guess it seemed nurturing to me because, for one Kate tends to regress to little girl when she's freaked.

And there's an implication to what happened to her. (not that I think what's happened.) But I think they are trying to get Sawyer to make assumptions about what happended to Kate. And why it's nurturing (comparing Sawyer to Jack) is that Sawyer got calm, and didn't go aggro the way Jack does, yelling and screaming. That would have made her feel worse. Fish biscuit was a gesture. What I hope is that he slipped something into it.

Anyone notice what a nice catch she has. She'd be a good in-fielder.

I see what you're saying, but during that scene I was screaming at the screen wanting him to show her a little love, make her feel better, lift her spirits, raise her hope. Alas, fish biscuit!!! They're all so freaking dysfunctional it's hilarious.

[Crandyman]

I'll disagree a little on the oh so "nurturing" sawyer. Kate was scared, crying, very upset, unsure, etc etc. While giving the biscuit met her hunger need, he did nothing to meet her largest need, the emotional one, so I think you can only call him so nurturing. It's expected, cause he's a con-man, and a player, he get's that honest, and I don't believe REALLY knows how to treat a lady. What Kate wanted so desperately to hear was "It's gonna be alright freckles, we're gonna get out of here, don't worry" instead, he gives her the fish biscuit. Bah on the nurturing.

I think the biscuit was just a symbol for his love of Kate. It was the only tangible thing he could do at the time. Is there anyone more selfish than a con-man? And is there anything less selfish than sacrificing a basic human need, like food, for another? Oh, and his endearing tone and joking about requesting the other cage and calling her "Freckles" was the emotional support she needed.

[ZigbertToshicus]

I think the trick was believing the kid, not the hit the rock on the button. The reward was Kate.

Ewww, very smart. I actually was thinking of the food trick, but I guess he actually performed two tricks and received two rewards, didn't he? I think you're right.

[Crandyman]

Name the trick, name the reward.

I think the trick was believing the kid, not the hit the rock on the button. The reward was Kate.

So are the Dharmites thinking that Sawyer will be easier to control as long as Kate is in the equation?

[Smartypants]

So are the Dharmites thinking that Sawyer will be easier to control as long as Kate is in the equation?

I think that's exactly it.

[Dezdemona]

I'll disagree a little on the oh so "nurturing" sawyer. Kate was scared, crying, very upset, unsure, etc etc. While giving the biscuit met her hunger need, he did nothing to meet her largest need, the emotional one, so I think you can only call him so nurturing. It's expected, cause he's a con-man, and a player, he get's that honest, and I don't believe REALLY knows how to treat a lady. What Kate wanted so desperately to hear was "It's gonna be alright freckles, we're gonna get out of here, don't worry" instead, he gives her the fish biscuit. Bah on the nurturing.
I disagree. Telling her "It'll be alright," would have been a lie, and they both would have known it. I don't believe Kate would have felt comforted by it in the least. They have zero control over events at the moment.

What I found interesting with Sawyer was his reaction to Karl's apology. I suspect he doesn't get too many people saying "Sorry," to him. Tom was already on his "Need to kill" list, but the incident probably put the kid into the "victim" category with him. That could be used to manipulate him at a later date.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I for one, though, would have joined Dharma and done whatever they wanted if, after 2 months on Craphole Island, someone offered me fresh hot french-pressed coffee.

Oh, I'm so there with you.

[MayBear]

I am still wondering if the so-called "escape" attempt facilitated by Carl was staged. Did they want to see what Sawyer would do if released?
.............

Oh yes!! I have to admit.... I hollered at the TV, "Sawyer!! You've just been set up!"

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b155/luvmyhunny/Smilies/thshy_2_03.gifBut you all talk to the TV too, right? Sometimes? Maybe once or twice?

[bricarguy]

I agree that it appeared to be a set up escape attempt. Especially since he asked where the camp was. I thought that was kind of an odd question. Also when (Is carl the kids name) he sent him in the other direction. Looked as though he was sending him where people were. Also, it appeared to be some kind of Zoo, therefore I would personally assume that the whole complex was probably self contained, and fenced. Therefore escape would be very difficult, and observation would be easy. Of course those are just my thoughts.

-Bri

[gertie]

I guess it seemed nurturing to me because, for one Kate tends to regress to little girl when she's freaked.

And there's an implication to what happened to her. (not that I think what's happened.) But I think they are trying to get Sawyer to make assumptions about what happended to Kate. And why it's nurturing (comparing Sawyer to Jack) is that Sawyer got calm, and didn't go aggro the way Jack does, yelling and screaming. That would have made her feel worse. Fish biscuit was a gesture. What I hope is that he slipped something into it.

Anyone notice what a nice catch she has. She'd be a good in-fielder.

Hahahaha! I noticed both the throw and catch!

But anyway, yes, I agree that Sawyer is being manipulated into thinking the worst of what happened to Kate.

She had those bloody wrists that looked like she got dragged or pulled or something.

[The_Lurker]

I'm not convinced Carl is a plant, but I admit the possibility. The kid may have wanted to know where the camp was so he'd have a target destination for his escape. Certainly the Others already know where the fuselage camp is, so there's no need to ask from just an information-gathering perspective.

He could have deliberately sent Sawyer one way to cover his own very real escape, or he could have thought they'd both have a better chance if they split up. Either way, I think it's too soon to tell.

As for Jack's compliance being the first step to being "broken," well, they were bargaining with food. It's not easy to deny yourself a basic human need. Hunger is a powerful motivator. As a doctor, Jack knows he has to maintain his strength and ability to reason to get out of his situation. He needs the food. So, this is a very minor "victory" for The Others. I think they may indeed have expected him to try to escape. It would have been far more productive for Jack to act rational (albeit indignant and as uncooperative as possible) and then tried that door maneuver much later, when it would be less expected. Of course, sadly, this is not in Jack's character. We know him to be an irrational hothead at times.

Kate: She may indeed have been hungry by the time she reached the cage. If her timeline was the same as Sawyer's, he was in the cage much of the day before she was brought. Certainly, Kate wasn't having a picnic on the beach with Benry that entire time. Who knows what she'd been going through? She may indeed have been hungry again by the time she was put into the cage. We didn't get to see the entire day through Kate's eyes, IMO.

Great observations by Crandyman, by the way.

[ZigbertToshicus]

He needs the food. So, this is a very minor "victory" for The Others
True enough. But it's a minor victory that he tried exceptionally hard to deny them. He's written as a guy who can't give up control on anything, even when he's doing something irrational and unnecessary like hanging from a chain on the ceiling. It's not like he planned to hang there all day long, but the moment she tells him to come down is the only moment he can't do it. Cause he doesn't want to give in. She tried to use his hunger (eating it in front of him) and his awareness of the effects on his body to convince him, but it didn't work (though it probably would have if he went hungry long enough). Because this is the kind of guy he is, because he refused to follow the feeding protocol the first time, and because he only did so after the taxing flashbacks and failed escape attempt ... I think it is likely a significant first step in the Others demonstrating and Jack accepting that they are in control now.

The question is whether he will take a second step toward recognizing their control or whether he will find a way to evade it. I'm sure that this theme, and the Others' prison guard tactics, will be significant for several episodes to come.

[Crandyman]

So, is the exploitation of each of their weaknesses an attempt to change them? As in, the first step of healing is recognition. Or are the three of them being played against each other for some other reason.

[interplanetjanet]

Kate starts as "clean her up, treat her nice" but then the handcuffs, and whatever happened between breakfast and being brought to the cage to mark up her wrists. Her reactions with Sawyer don't seem to go with just being attacked by the others, my first thought, so I'm going to hope she simply tried to french press Ben through his coffeemaker with both hands tied in front of her.

Karl...I initially assumed he must be a setup, but his question, something the top others all know but a rebellious teen (Alex's boyfriend?) might be very eager to know, and kept in the dark about. Up til now running away from the others meant trying to live like Danielle, but now there's a whole new group you could move in with...And releasing Sawyer made sense in terms of doubling his own chance for escape, but not in terms of how fast he picked those locks.

Jack and Jullet do have chemistry...I think his character needs someone educated and white collar: his connection with Kate had a hint of condescension to it, and with Ana was never believable, while he and Sarah definitely sparked.

[Farmer Ted]

Oh yes!! I have to admit.... I hollered at the TV, "Sawyer!! You've just been set up!"


Yeah, I guess the smart thing for Sawyer to do would've been to go back in his cage and put the lock back in place, but not quite latched. And then to take off in the middle of the night. But it's not something you'd think of doing in the heat of the moment.

[Joenet]

Regarding Kate;
Notice how they made Kate put the handcuffs on herself, when her escorts could have very easily put them on her well before they got to the beach. I think there's some significance to this - possibly part of breaking of her free will.

I think the Others knew she was coming to the island and was wearing handcuffs when the plane crashed. (just a thought)

[interplanetjanet]

I'll disagree a little on the oh so "nurturing" sawyer. Kate was scared, crying, very upset, unsure, etc etc. While giving the biscuit met her hunger need, he did nothing to meet her largest need, the emotional one, so I think you can only call him so nurturing. It's expected, cause he's a con-man, and a player, he get's that honest, and I don't believe REALLY knows how to treat a lady. What Kate wanted so desperately to hear was "It's gonna be alright freckles, we're gonna get out of here, don't worry" instead, he gives her the fish biscuit. Bah on the nurturing.

I've got to disagree here; when they arrive, Kate's barely held together; Sawyer gets her to laugh. That's what she needs. "It's gonna be all right" is patently false comfort, as is any assurrance that "we're gonna get out of here."

[Crandyman]

Regarding Kate;
Notice how they made Kate put the handcuffs on herself, when her escorts could have very easily put them on her well before they got to the beach. I think there's some significance to this - possibly part of breaking of her free will. [/I]


Very valid point. Like I have stated before, the Others don't merely want to keep these three as prisoners. They serve no purpose to them locked up. They hope to implement change. Kate putting the handcuffs on herself is another small step of her submission to the Others' way.

This is actually what happens to wild animals who have lived in captivity for some time. They become so adapted and institutionalized that their cage doors can be left open and they will not escape.

Perhaps these three are being groomed for their 'society'. To tame them so much that they will want to stay.

[ZigbertToshicus]

Regarding Kate;
Notice how they made Kate put the handcuffs on herself, when her escorts could have very easily put them on her well before they got to the beach. I think there's some significance to this - possibly part of breaking of her free will.

I think the Others knew she was coming to the island and was wearing handcuffs when the plane crashed. (just a thought)

Good points. I had been concentrating on Jack and Sawyer and forgot that Kate also made a choice to accept her captors' power in exchange for food. Of the three, Jack is the only one who really tried to resist. Sawyer actively sought to win his reward with the Others' system, Kate didn't like the idea of cuffs but accepted without much persuasion; only Jack really fought it. But this probably also has to do with the fact that Kate and Sawyer are sneakier people. They preserve their free will internally, by acting as if they accept others' authority, but figuring they will get what they want through more subtle means. So maybe they both just think they will play along until they see an opportunity. Jack is generally unwilling to fly under the radar this way though, so I think his surrender to Juliet is a real one, as far as it goes.

It will be interesting to see whose tactics extend their freedom the furthest.

[Crandyman]

The thing is, I'm not so sure Sawyers choice was a conscience descision of giving up his free will. I think things would have been different if there was an ultimatum given to him. His decision was merely out of curiosity and neccessity. I honestly don't think Sawyer saw it as giving up anything.

[Smartypants]

In fact, it was Sawyer's way of "besting" his captors by figuring out the contraption in his cage.

[ZigbertToshicus]

Yeah, I think you're right. He was left alone, aside from Carl, to figure it out for himself so it was more just him figuring out his environment than actively submitting to anyone. He might have acted differently if someone had specifically made him choose to wear cuffs or not eat. I still think he'd probably accept the cuffs though, figuring he needs the food and can wait for a better chance. Where Jack has to fight his hardest in every battle, Sawyer picks the battles he can win to greatest advantage for himself.

[redneck once removed]

I don't understand why everyone assumes Kate ate the food...She was a prisoner...After everything they've seen on the Island, including a Medical Hatch where they were doing experiments on a poor kidnapped Pregnant Woman (yes, Claire, duh, lol ) Why would she eat anything they gave her??, My first instinct would be 'what if the food is drugged' (like Claire's water, even if Kate never saw it) Kate is too smart for that...jmo

[I Like Freckles]

Well, Benry told her that she had to put on the handcuffs if she wanted any coffee... and then she complied. Why would she do that if she weren't planning on eating?

[Jinjur]

Hey CrandyMan I think you pretty much summed it up...:clap:

I asked the same thing about Kate when I saw her not eating....so much good bacon going too waste...

[MayBear]

Regarding Kate;
Notice how they made Kate put the handcuffs on herself, when her escorts could have very easily put them on her well before they got to the beach. I think there's some significance to this - possibly part of breaking of her free will.

I think the Others knew she was coming to the island and was wearing handcuffs when the plane crashed. (just a thought)

:yeah:

I thought that right away... There was definately some sort of significance with the handcuffs. I'm not sure they new she was coming... but somehow they knew she had handcuffs at one time....

Am I over-analyzing?http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/images/smilies/thinking.gif

[Prof_Frink]

Its all about the Love Triangle - Henry wants to know who Kate will choose - that's why he brought her to Sawyer.

Its soo romantic - that Henry, he knows what we want!

[kpoz]

Of couse, three of those four men weren't on duty...they just wanted a good look at CleanedUpKate. :pant:

Actually, did anybody else notice the easter egg in this episode? When Kate was put in the cage, right when she lifted up her left arm, one of the birds/annimals chirping in the backgorund made the "pretty lady-whistle".

[JacksGirlfriend]

I don't think Kate ate the food. If she had, she wouldn't have taken Sawyer's only fish biscuit.

She put the handcuffs on because she was told to do so and didn't feel there was much choice.

And Crandyman - I love the beginning post. It was a great analysis and one I hadn't gotten around to thinking about yet. Thanks for thinking for me.

[magnoliasouth]

I found it interesting that four men, some of them armed, escorted Kate to her breakfast with Fenry. Juliet alone was the one taking care of Jack. That speaks volumes to which is tougher.I disagree. I don't believe it has anything to do with toughness at all. Only which is more likely to try and escape and how. If they know anything about Kate and Sawyer vs. Jack, well there you go. Kate and Sawyer are very much alike. They're both con artists and constantly looking for a way out. Jack is kind hearted, in his own way which calls for a completely different way of handling him.

Jack beats Sawyer just about every single time anyway and Sawyer knows it.

[island_maverick]

Psychological conditioning and control makes the captives prone to further conditioning tricks.

Let's assume they are trying to promote a love triangle.

The three captives were chosen very specifically (one assumes for their 'specialness' or 'goodness', and/or for their unbending wlllingness to stick their own regimented personal belief systems, even if that means committing a crime).

The Others have a penchant for 'special' children. Maybe they haven't found the perfect one yet.

What better way to get one that to make one from two special adults. Perm any one from two outcomes to create a special child with specific traits.

(Ok, it's far fetched :rolleyez:).

[interplanetjanet]

Well, Benry told her that she had to put on the handcuffs if she wanted any coffee... and then she complied. Why would she do that if she weren't planning on eating?
To get him to keep talking? It's a failing of evil overlords, though I'm not sure it works on Fenry...but I don't think Kate got a Fenry chat when he was visiting them, so it's probably her modus operandi faced with superior force.

As for their interest in the love triangle--since everything we can check of what Fenry said is a lie, I'll take it that he doesn't actually care whose name she mentions first, just plays his games for the sake of it.

[Commedia Del'Lost]

Well, Benry told her that she had to put on the handcuffs if she wanted any coffee... and then she complied. Why would she do that if she weren't planning on eating?

She may have been planning on eating, thinking maybe they're weren't so bad, just cautious, until Ben laid that eerie "unpleasant two weeks" bit on her. Then she lost her appetite.

[LostInWilderness]

[B]I think it's obvious now that Jack, Kate and Sawyer were all chosen for a specific reason.
Yep. Looks like the plan is brainwashing, getting information, then using them to help indoctrinate all the 815s. I like Homer's idea that it will backfire, and the others will split. Maybe 1/2 of the others will join the lostaways against the unimportant giant rats in the maze next season.

I just stopped by to say great subject line.

[Variable]

I'd be more scared of kate, a "bad person" than jack, who does not have a history of hurting and outsmarting people.

has he ever killed anyone?

[Son of Locke]

In fact, it was Sawyer's way of "besting" his captors by figuring out the contraption in his cage.Funny, I thought it was a "even where you succeed, you fail" lesson. Clearly the contraption was set up for more than one captive (or a really large single captive) to solve as a team. That Sawyer figured it out on his own speaks more to his inability to trust than to his ingenuity. Although I laughed out loud at the celebration music.

By the way, anyone who hasn't read drabauer's "panopticon" thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19423) and is still posting in here...you ought to visit and tell us what you think.

[MochaKimono]

I think Carl is a plant -- not necessarily an Other, though, but definitely his placement was deliberate. They might've even left a bit of wire in there on purpose because they knew he would pick the lock with it.

But think of Sawyer's weakness for causing hurt to male children because of his selfishness. He completely dropped a con against that couple because they had a young son, and it reminded him too much of...him.

Maybe having the boy trying to escape and getting Sawyer involved and ending up painful for both of them will make him think twice about trying to escape and risk getting the boy involved...although I think Carl is gone now that Kate is in his cage? Or what? I don't have Tivo so I can't rewatch it or anything.

I'd be more scared of kate, a "bad person" than jack, who does not have a history of hurting and outsmarting people.

has he ever killed anyone?

Possibly has had patients die on him, though probably not through drunken blunders like his dad.

[Deadfall]

I think that Carl is likely one of several children the Others keep locked away (for whatever weirdo purpose that is). Maybe he was not adjusting as well to their plan as they had hoped and decided to put him on a "time out" of sorts. I definitely don't think this is the punishment room mentioned in the ep. where Michael finally sees Walt again, though.

[SageTemple]

I found myself wondering if Jack's cage was as real as he thought it was. I have a feeling that he's not underwater, and that the water rushing in was more staged than real.

We know that Kate and Saywer are in the same compound, and we know that Ben seems to be able to move fairly freely between Jack and Kate and Sawyer. Judging by the pullaway shot, there's not much water close to their camp -- certainly not enought to have sharks and dolphins nearby. It would also make sense to have all the zoology in the same area -- so the bear cages and the tanks are close to each other.

I think those big tanks that had the Hydra Logo on them are the same tanks that are feeding the water into Jack's cell when the door is open. It feeds into his isolation and need to depend on Juliet, yet it keeps the three of them in the same rough geographical area. I bet that Jack is no more than 30 feet from Sawyer and Kate, just underground.

I suppose, that it even could have been designed that way -- large water tanks designed to flood that room when necessary and drain back into the tanks when necessary, all for the benefit of the underwater zoology experiments.

Either way, I don't think he's far away, and I don't think he's underwater either.

[DreaminLost]

It's hard to say if they're actually near the ocean or not.

But remember when Jack drank some of the water dripping from the ceiling? He spit it out like it was salty ocean water.

[SageTemple]

It's hard to say if they're actually near the ocean or not.

But remember when Jack drank some of the water dripping from the ceiling? He spit it out like it was salty ocean water.

I'm basing it off the screen cap -- the long shot of the camp surrounded by vegatation. Doesn't seem to be any large tributary or body of water in the immediate area.

[I Like Freckles]

The place we saw at the beginning of the episode may not actually be where Kate, jack, and Sawyer are being held. I find it quite unlikely that the Others would risk their prisoners potentially leading an angry posse back to Othertown were they to escape.

[p2804w]

Anyone else buy the idea that the scenarios for JKS were just a bit too setup?

Jack: I dont believe that they know sarah is happy. Surely they have observed jack long enough to piece information together. He denies marriage and his profession at first to Juliet but then conceeds. Is Juliet a psychologist sent to break him - there is the link to Libby that someone posted somehwere else.

Kate: She is given the burden of knowing something bad is going to happen the fear has been installed, fear over uncertainty is a massive psycholoigical power.

Also when she returned Sawyer who was hungry offered her his food. Think we can agree he wants to bang next week out of her. however she had breakfast on the beach, did she not eat it? Is she greedy?

Someone somewhere else posted that the love traingle between these three would be linked to being hard for kate over the next few weeks as she is choosing who to be with. Perhaps it is to reproduce. Another thread mentioned the implications the others could not reproduce so perhaps they need other people to reproduce to keep the society going.


Sawyer: He is a free spirit untamed. a cage is not an ideal place for him, we know he will run at the first opportunity. I think Karl was planted by the others to demonstarte this. He tells sawyer which direction to run in and low and behold he gets captured by Juliet.

- Was she on the way back from Jack? Was she there as a stop device, surely no need to carry the tazer or whatever it is when she is walking in safe zones? -

Sawyer gets captured so he will give up hope of escaping again, thus breaking him down slowly.

Sorry to the people who i coined as 'someone somwhere posted' i have limited time!

[I Like Freckles]

Anyone else buy the idea that using the VERY effective search function on this board is a REALLY good idea before starting a new thread on a topic that is already generating interesting discussion in an existing thread?

[SageTemple]

The place we saw at the beginning of the episode may not actually be where Kate, jack, and Sawyer are being held. I find it quite unlikely that the Others would risk their prisoners potentially leading an angry posse back to Othertown were they to escape.

No, probably not, but I still contend that where they may be, they are close to each other, Kate and Sawyer for certain, and I'm postulating that Jack is nearby as well -- as opposed to the underwater hatch idea.

[I Like Freckles]

Well, it's quite possible to have an "underwater" hatch immediately adjacent to land, isn't it? All you have to do is bury the chamber that Jack was held in such that the door he opened was below the water line. Assuming that the scene with Kate and Benry at brunch actually did occur on a beach (and not on some Dharma greenscreen set as some have postulated), then I don't find it remotely difficult to believe that the Zoological station/Hydra station are within a quick walk of each other.

[juanbong]

Ya may take a look at this thread.....

it will be merged in with your thread.

Thanks.

[SageTemple]

Anyone else buy the idea that using the VERY effective search function on this board is a REALLY good idea before starting a new thread on a topic that is already generating interesting discussion in an existing thread?


Anyone else buy into the idea that snarking first time posters is a jerkoff move?

[I Like Freckles]

I'm not interested in sidetracking the discussion to debate whether or not some mild sarcasm qualifies as "snarking," but I will note that this thread was almost certainly on the front page of GD at the time the new thread was made. Contributing to the discussion is always welcome, as are new members. That said, it really fragments ongoing exchanges when there are two threads on the same topic. And the search function really is very good here.

If I offended p2804w by my failure to include a ;), then I apologize. Welcome.

[/threadjack]

[IMLOSTRU?]

What is snarking? Is that like snipe hunting?
http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/B/black_parab.jpg

[Quality]

Jacks test reminded me of the Pavlov experiment for some reason

[juanbong]

That said, it really fragments ongoing exchanges when there are two threads on the same topic. And the search function really is very good here.


Well said.

There were only 2 threads on this topic? ;)

I keed, I keed.

[end threadjack/]

[I Like Freckles]

Snipe hunting is almost certainly a jerkoff move. I did none of that.

Jacks test reminded me of the Pavlov experiment for some reason

I think the Others' approach to jack goes quite a bit beyond Pavlov's conditional response. In Pavlov's most famous experiments, he would provide some sort of stimulus (usually a bell) in conjunction with feeding the canine test subjects. Later, merely providing the stimulus without the food will still cause the dog to react (by producing saliva) as though food were being provided.

In Jacks' case, the Others are doing quite a bit more than that. He's being forced to submit to outside control in order to earn his reward (food, etc.) rather than exhibiting a subcinscious reflex associated with a stimulus. The Others are actually breaking down the control freak part of Jack's persona. From the looks of things, doing so pretty well crumbles him into nothing -- likely because so much of his sense of self and who he is is built on being in control of his person and everything around it.

[ReverendDarkness]

Does anyone else wonder what exactly was in the "file" that Juliette was looking at? She did not disclose any information that could not have been obtained via survielance. Was the file actually about Jack? or was it a random stack of papers, meant to make Jack think that they had extensively researched his past?

Did someone already bring this up? (since I don't use the search function)

[Hybrid Theory]

One thing I found funny was that no alarm went off when Carl was out of his cage, but one went off when Sawyer's cage opened.

At least, that's what I am thinking....can anyone verify that? If no alarm went off until Sawyers cage opened, it was definitely a setup.

[I Like Freckles]

Does anyone else wonder what exactly was in the "file" that Juliette was looking at? She did not disclose any information that could not have been obtained via survielance. Was the file actually about Jack? or was it a random stack of papers, meant to make Jack think that they had extensively researched his past?

Did someone already bring this up? (since I don't use the search function)

The file has been mentioned briefly in this thread. This thread: How the Others got Jack's Information (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25058) is another good place to take a look.

Since Jack hasn't actually SEEN the contents of the file, it's quite possible that Juliette brought out a sheaf of papers Acco fastened in a manila folder with one or two official-looking documents on top. IMO, all of the info she shared with Jack could have been readily obtained by a search of public records and some P.I. work in the two months since the crash. That does assume that the Others have a link to the outside world, but that seems pretty likely to me based on what we saw of Othertown.


BTW, not to sound like a broken record or a scratched CD or a corrupted mp3 file, but the search function really is a great thing. :D

[Crandyman]

As I have stated before, It really doesn't matter how they got the info on Jack or even if it was real at all. The point is that Juliet was able to convince Jack that it did exist, hence making him believe the statement about Sarah being happy.

[Crandyman]

So, to tie in some of the great ideas being thrown around in Why is Kate crying when she is taken to the cage? (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25175) I would speculate as to Kates incarceration in the cage near Sawyer. Do you suppose the plan was always to place her there or did she do something over 'breakfast' to be placed there? The more that I think about it, I speculate that perhaps Benry laid down the 'ground rules' over the breakfast scene. Information was given to her about what she has to do. If she doesn't 'play' along there will be consequences. Now, is Kate being used as an 'X' factor in a socialogical experiment between Jack and Sawyer? The Unselfish Vs. The Selfish?

[Noav Sigless]

Juliet succeeded in breaking Jack.
Back in the Swan station, Jack never believed the computer did anything. He was always willing to not push the button. He thought Dr. Candle lied in the orientation film and he thought Zeke/Tom was lying in The Hunting Party. He wasn't about to believe anything Juliet said to him, like say,

JACK [pointing to button behind Julie]: What's that for -- the button -- what's it for?

JULIE: It's for emergencies.

He didn't believe her when she said they would die if he opened the door. After the room was flooded and Jack and Juliet worked together to close the door, Juliet could have pushed the yellow emergency button but she didn't. She told Jack to push it and he did. He believed her. He was broken.


(Thanks spooky)

[Noav Sigless]

I'm just shallow enough to bump this after it got buried by redirects. Of course, I moved most of the threads that left the redirects. Oh well.

[Without Dane]

As I have stated before, It really doesn't matter how they got the info on Jack or even if it was real at all. The point is that Juliet was able to convince Jack that it did exist, hence making him believe the statement about Sarah being happy.

In regards to Jack's character arc in the episode it doesn't matter how they got the info on Jack or if it was real... but in terms of the show it really does matter. Brings up tons of questions, hardly a point worth brushing aside.

[Crandyman]

In regards to Jack's character arc in the episode it doesn't matter how they got the info on Jack or if it was real... but in terms of the show it really does matter. Brings up tons of questions, hardly a point worth brushing aside.

Agreed. It is very important to the overall plot of the show. My point is merely that of a psychological nature. All in all, I actually do believe that they have information on them, but am more curious as to why. The only reason they would even want it would be for some sort of psychological testing. It looks as though our initial season 1 theories are more correct now than we thought...perhaps.

[interplanetjanet]

A thought on the different treatment: Ben had a lot of time with Jack to observe how to manipulate him; he barely knows Sawyer and Kate.

So Jack gets the full-press: nothing to control, nothing to fix, and an interrogator who looks and sounds strikingly like his ex-wife. I'm especially struck by this last when she's made him laugh: "I'm a repo-woman." "I just put the toothpicks in." I think Julie Bowen, who plays Sarah, would have delivered the lines with exactly the same cadence, getting exactly the same reluctant laugh from Jack. It could be this is part of the chemistry of a J-J pairing; it could also be careful study of a tape of Sarah chatting to someone--copy her mannerisms, copy her little jokes. I'm not saying I'm convinced of the last, but the echoes of Sarah-Jack in their interactions are hard to miss.

With Kate, I notice two things. First, the line about "looking out at the same ocean" is quickly shown to be untrue when they lock her up next to Sawyer. Second, Ben's emphasis on her asking about "Sawyer and Jack." I think he may have had several different scenarios laid out for Kate, depending on how she reacted to the shower, the handcuffs, the conversation.

Sawyer is stuck in the animal cage. Because they don't care, or because that's the first step in their experiment to find out how to bend him? They saw how he interacted with Karl, now see how he interacts with Kate, episode 3 they'll have designed their Sawyer-breaker? Or is he really only there for Jack/Kate leverage?

[The Life of Riley]

With Kate, I notice two things. First, the line about "looking out at the same ocean" is quickly shown to be untrue when they lock her up next to Sawyer.

I thought about this as well. There is no view of the ocean from the cages. Jack's aquarium/cell didn't have a view of the ocean either (though it may be under it).

Maybe they will be near the ocean during whatever is supposed to go on in the next two weeks?

[melancana]

With Kate, I notice two things. First, the line about "looking out at the same ocean" is quickly shown to be untrue when they lock her up next to Sawyer.

I thought he meant "friends" as in all the other survivors back at the beach, not as in Sawyer and Jack.

[Verite Garde]

I could be wrong, but I think that the reason Sawyer was placed in the cage is the Others did not think that they would be able to speak to Sawyer at all. He would be defiant more openly than the other two prisoners. They were attempting to get information from him by putting someone else in his situation ie the guy in the other cell.

Sawyer is easy and can be bought for a price.

[Crandyman]

I thought about this as well. There is no view of the ocean from the cages. Jack's aquarium/cell didn't have a view of the ocean either (though it may be under it).

Maybe they will be near the ocean during whatever is supposed to go on in the next two weeks?

I just assumed that Benry was talking about the moment (the breakfast scene). That she could take solice in the fact that she is still looking out at the same ocean as her friends were.

I too, think it was a fairly large indication by Benry's line about "Sawyer and Jack". What's the purpose of the inquisition about the seemingly mundane statement unless there was a psychological factor involved.

The issue of Kate being placed in the cage with a look of shame has been discussed at length, but I offer another angle to the scenario. Perhaps the session with Benry was similar to a doctor-patient session. If there was a dossier on Jack why couldn't there be one on Kate? Possibly, Benry could have reviewed all the things Kate has done in the past. She could have been torn down piece by piece using psychological tools and mind games. That would at least explain the look and feel that Kate expressed upon her imprisonment in the cage. The cuts on the wrists is a whole different story though!!

[Verite Garde]

Hi Crandyman,

My Boyfriend and I were discussing the same thing this morning. It's like each skinner box was custom made for them.

I think the end goal, is custom designed psychological breakdown - in order to rebuild them. But into what?

It's why they are not in the same kind of cell. Kate's psychological skinner box started when she put on the dress, not when she was put in the cage. But I think "feeling like a lady" would feel very uncomfortable to a tomboy who would rather wear pants and durable shoes.

Part of observing Sawyer is not in how fast he gets the food, like a bear, but how he interacts with Kate when a situation is set up for Sawyer to project a story of what happended to her. What we find out is how nurturing Sawyer is. He gives her the bear food that he got shocked getting.

Jack's box is that he is not control and separated from his flock. What is the breaking point where Jack goes insane? I'm hoping he turns the tables on them, by tracing the camera wire back to the observation room.

Brilliant observations and I was saying as much about Kate in another post today. I swear Kate's tears are for her being forced into wearing a sun dress.

[interplanetjanet]

If there was a dossier on Jack why couldn't there be one on Kate?
I'd be surprised if they didn't have dossiers on Kate and Sawyer, and likely on all the major players they're interested in as well. The list with real names was a strong giveaway here.

Following a line from the "It doesn't matter what we were before, it matters what we are now," thread, why the dossiers and use of real names, if it's the present that matters? It implies they're very interested in these peoples pasts--perhaps "why J-K-S" is due not to what they've made themselves on the island, but simply to what they were before.

[roswellian]

I'm sure they have bio's for all the losties. I bet that Benry broke Kate down mentally with her past before the cage and that is why she was crying.

[LostInWilderness]

Ben sent Ethan and Goodwin to get lists. I'm sure the lists were so they could run background checks. I'm sure that's how they determine the "good" ones.

[magnoliasouth]

has he ever killed anyone?Yes at least one, he killed the marshal. Although that wasn't your typical cold blooded murder like Kate's murder or Sawyer's. It was a mercy killing which interestingly enough, is something a large number of people can identify with.

[truffula]

I was just looking at some posts in another thread about Karl, and his purpose, and it lead me to this thread with my thoughts....

As its being discussed here, each individual captive is being tested in a unique way to their personal character.
But what exactly are the tests?
I've been so busying myself trying to determine the end result/goal of the Others that I got to a point where I need to step back and examine each situation with more care. So with that, here is how I think the "round 1" tests went:

- Jack - they knew he would be the most difficult to break, so they put him in the most harsh of scenarios. The first test was to get him to break down and be honest; this test Jack tried to lie his way out of, but his true self showed and after lying about being a repo man, he is truthful about his father's death. The next test was that of trust; this test Jack started to do okay with, but by opening the door and releasing the water, he blew a chance of possible escape. Juliet knocked him out and back in the cell for you, Jack. Finally, Jack submits to the trust and backs up against the wall so Juliet can bring him food. This was quite the accomplishment in Benry's eyes. He knew Jack could be "turned" into a "good one", and even though he knew she wouldn't like doing it, Benry chose Juliet as the "tester" for Jack. Whether or not this will backfire for Benry remains to be seen.

- Kate - appealing to her feminine side, the first test is that of trust; she showers and puts on the suggested dress with little objection (though she wasnt offered much option as far as the dress :p). "You're not my type" was just Tom's way of enforcing this test - "you can trust me Kate, I wont look". Then she is tested with Fear as Benry tells her the next 2 weeks will be unpleasant. They know Kate is strong, and they're using this tactic to make her stronger. It also appears that for some reason, they want Kate and Sawyer to hook up - they are definitely manipulating that situation so that they DO hook up. First the comment by Benry about saying Sawyer's name first, then putting them in cages near each other. Perhaps they feel that if they can manipulate these two together, they can influence their ultimate decision of whether or not to "join" the Others....

- Sawyer - start him off in the Skinner Box. Okay, it was designed for animals, but to reduce Sawyer to animal-like mentality, this is his first test. Sawyer is so busy being slick, that he's forgotten basic problem solving, so they stick him in the cage to figure out what it took (probably genetically enhanced) Polar Bears 2 hours to do. Since he was taking too long, they decided to use their backup plan - Karl. The temptation of potential freedom gets the brain juices flowing, unfortunately it was all a setup. Notice how quickly Sawyer solves the food release once he's been put back in his cage. Then they tease him with the idea of being able to help/save Kate by putting her in a nearby cage. What's next for Sawyer, I don't know, but I have a feeling the next "two weeks" are gonna be just as unpleasant as Benry said it would be for Kate....


Wow....I rambled quite a bit there :p

[interplanetjanet]

Interesting Truff. But I think one reason Jack is treated differently is that he would be the easiest to break. Kate and Sawyer have both been prisoners, both been on the run, both tried to not get caught. Jack, outside of a few hours in a holding cell, doesn't have any of this.
And he fixes stuff, so, for the first time since the crash, he has no one to look after. If he had Kate to protect, he'd be acting pretty differently, I think a lot steadier and more plan-oriented.

A case in point is the questions. Jack is completely un-sneaky, unlike his comrades. If Jack thinks for a bit--and he is exhausted, dehydrated, disoriented--the questions are ones the others know the answers to. Between Ethan, Goodwin, and Mike's list, the others have surely figured out in 2 months that the plane was from Sidney, and that he is the doctor.

No one asks Kate or Sawyer questions. (Kate even asks questions. Yay! Though sadly Ben is probably the worst possible character to get answers out of.)
Would you expect Kate and Sawyer to be helpfully filling in info for them, or would they be saying "What do you mean, where did the plane come from? Do you expect me to believe you never got that out of one of the people you kidnapped?"

Jack is "on" when he's taking care of people, and most vulnerable with nothing to do. Kate and Sawyer are both used to looking out for themselves and having no one to protect (look at how Kate's protecting her mom worked out)--giving them someone to care about and protect, for whom their actions determine punishment or safety, will break them down in a way that a week alone in a bear cage wouldn't.

[Noav Sigless]

Guys, it's all about the button. The big , yellow emergency button.
Juliet turned Jack into a button pusher. That's how she broke him.

[interplanetjanet]

I dunno Noav, I agree the button's important and symbolic there. But there's a big difference between pushing the Swan's button, even though nothing appears to be wrong, and pushing the big emergency button during an emergency. I think cooperating in getting food and water--which they could have come up with a lot of much simpler methods of giving him--was the big break.

[Crandyman]

I would have to agree, I think the button was a mere symbol in the matter. They actually got to see results from him pressing that button in the middle a true emergency. However, Jack opening the door that held back the water was similar to Locke going ahead and smashing the computer. Both felt very strongly that nothing would happen when disobeying "protocol", so to speak. They were both warned right before they acted and both were proven to be terribly wrong.

[PandoraX]

Three people captured. Three seperate confinements. Three different paths.

I think it's obvious now that Jack, Kate and Sawyer were all chosen for a specific reason. Their captivity is more than one of protection or punishment. This is proven by the way each one of them was seperated and treated. If detention was the sole purpose a single pit or holding cell would do just fine. On the contrary though, each of them was placed in a very different environment.

Jack: We find out it was a large tank for sharks and dolphins. It was dark, dank and quiet, leaving Jack completely isolated and trapped. The cameras and intercom made Jacks paranoia exponentially greater. It was a perfect way to 'break' Jack. This type of isolation made him completely dependent on someone else. This happened to be Juliet. She gave up information in order to 'reach' Jack. She gave up enough factual information that no one else could know on the island, that she had gained Jacks attention (trust wouldn't be appropriate here). Whether or not Juliet actually knew if Sarah was happy or not is completely irrelevant. The relevant fact is that Jack believes her and THAT is the first step in controlling someone.

Kate: Kate is treated, well....like a lady. She is given a shower, shampoo and a new dress. I can only imagine this would be the Others initial attempt at control. She is then led out to the beach to have a seemingly nice meal under reasonably calm conditions. By putting Kate in new clothes and giving her coffee, the Others hope to make her more comfortable which in turn would also make her more vulnerable and less resistant to change. Treating her like a savage would only encourage her to continue to act like one and would only hinder their goal.

Sawyer: In this episode, Sawyer has very limited interaction with the Others. He wakes up in an animal cage very similar to ones used to train gorrillas and chimpanzees. There is a boy, Carl, in a similar cage nearby which Sawyer tries to talk to. The kid doesn't respond until after Sawyer hits the "food" button for the second time. Carl tells Sawyer not to do it again and Sawyer responds in his typical fashion only to be shocked and thrown against the cage. Like a rat in a cage going after the cheese? Is this the best way to 'get' to Sawyer? Treat him like an animal? Was his escape attempt staged? In similar animal experiments after systematic treatment and punishments for behaviors escape is no longer entered in the mind. Is this the first step the Others have taken into changing Sawyer?

Don't have anything to add right now, but I thought that analysis was really insightful, Crandy :) I'm making you an honorary shrink... maybe you could work for PsyOps (Kelvin Inman's people back in Iraq?)

[landa]

did any one bring up the fact that juilet looks alot like jack's ex-wife? could the others want jack to subconsiously trust her because she looks so much like sarah? just an idea..

[PandoraX]

did any one bring up the fact that juilet looks alot like jack's ex-wife? could the others want jack to subconsiously trust her because she looks so much like sarah? just an idea..

That's a great point also... I remember watching that flashback of Jack's last moments as Sarah left the police station in tears, and he knew he'd never see her again... and they panned to Juliet, another pretty blonde (though not quite as doey-eyed-gorgeous, she's definitely got a nice look, slightly more down to earth).

[sals]

That's a great point also... I remember watching that flashback of Jack's last moments as Sarah left the police station in tears, and he knew he'd never see her again... and they panned to Juliet, another pretty blonde (though not quite as doey-eyed-gorgeous, she's definitely got a nice look, slightly more down to earth).


Note to self: Rewatch and check Sarah and Juliet for eyes this time.



Sals

[interplanetjanet]

In defense of Jack, not assuming Ben is telling the truth is a reasonable plan of action. And Jack got to spend a lot of time with him, going through all the various layers of lies (except the Locke-specific ones).

[Crissy]

What is the other's motivation in this?And have we looked from their eyes? I am sure to them, that our Lostaways seem to be a very savage bunch. Benry was tortured by an Iraqi, Ethan was killed, so was Goodwine. I am sure the Others are a bit afraid of the Lostaways, hence the cages and boxes. (if this is being discussed elsewhere, please point me that way)

[The Eccentrist]

Juliet is hotter than Sarah.

[Crandyman]

To get back to the topic at hand, I too believe the use of Juliet in Jack's interrogation was a deliberate part of the psychoanalysis process of the losties.

Jack would only continue to be defiant to Ben and Tom because they have done nothing positive to reinforce their trust to Jack. No matter what they would say to him, whether true facts or not, Jack would always have his doubts and would unlikely conform to any new ideas.

However, Juliet poses alternatives to the situation by playing to Jack's weakness.

- She is a female. Jack obviously has some father issues which in turn negatively affects his relationship with all men. I would presume the Jack would have very little male friends in the real world. He connects with women because women are easier to 'control' in his mind. His hero complex truly shines when there are women involved, imo.

- No reason to distrust. Juliet had given Jack no reason to not trust her. When she told him not to open the door and he did it anyways, only gave her more credence. The few facts she gave up were in fact true, furthering her impact on Jack. In the classic scenario, she was the good cop, so to speak.

- Familiarity. She does look very similar to his ex-wife Sara, as has been discussed. Now whether Juliet was specifically chosen by Ben because of this similarity is yet to be determined. It would make perfect sense to use her to get to Jack if they did indeed know the resemblance. It would create a sense a familiarity which would help ease the tension of the situation. Plus, there were obvious issues that Jack failed to work out with Sara. Now, Jack has those same emotions brought back to the surface with the striking resemblance of a loved one. This is apparent as its revealed in the flashbacks.

- The final scene with Ben. As she exits the room from which Jack is held she is met by a waiting Ben. His comment and her subtle look and quick departure make me feel like she was just playing a role. Like someone brought into a 'special case' to help out. Ben recognized Jacks weakness and exploited it by using Juliet.

So....yes....Juliet was intentionally used because of her resemblance to Sara. I guess thats all I had to really say then huh? :confused:

So...Yes....

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Alex and Kate:

How to interpret the scene? Before tonight's episode I was leaning towards the idea Karl was a mole. Now I'm not so sure.

Alex had helped Claire escape from Ethan. Is she expressing her "free will" or doing what's she's told to do.

[interplanetjanet]

I was actually relieved to find Ben monitoring Sawyer and Kate; at least they get some of his attention. Glass Ballerina did seem to underscore that they were doing a full press on Jack, who would be easiest to break. Sawyer's evaluating strengths and weaknesses; Jack's sulking in the corner of his cell. He doesn't try to engage Ben in conversation, doesn't try to jump him or Juliet.

Either he's broken damn fast, or there's something to the hope that he's faking and will make a move when they let him above sea level.

[Verite Garde]

did any one bring up the fact that juilet looks alot like jack's ex-wife? could the others want jack to subconsiously trust her because she looks so much like sarah? just an idea..

Forgive me but why does everyone keep saying they look alike? They do not look anything alike beyond the straight blond hair and similar ages! Different bone structure, eyes, physiques, demeaners.

But I agree maybe they think Jack likes blonds.

[zetaprime]

Forgive me but why does everyone keep saying they look alike? They do not look anything alike beyond the straight blond hair and similar ages! Different bone structure, eyes, physiques, demeaners.

But I agree maybe they think Jack likes blonds.


They do look pretty similar to me, but Juliet is the prettier of the two if you ignore the evil character she plays.

[interplanetjanet]

They look generally similar--not like they're related or clones, but like they could both be Jack's type.

I'm more struck by the little jokes that make Jack laugh--I could completely see Sarah saying them, with the same intonation. Whereas, say, Ana Lucia or Gabriealla, his other putative love interests, would never manage that "I'm a repo woman" line.

[LostInWilderness]

How to interpret the scene? Before tonight's episode I was leaning towards the idea Karl was a mole. Now I'm not so sure.
Looks to me like Alex is a full blown traitor to the others. The lostaways might be the first chance she's had in her life to get free of them.

[interplanetjanet]

Looks to me like Alex is a full blown traitor to the others. The lostaways might be the first chance she's had in her life to get free of them.

Up until now, escape meant living in the jungle alone, like Danielle, not the most encouraging example. Now you could go join a group of 40+ people who aren't terribly interested in bossing you around. I think both Alex and Karl want out. Are there other teenage others? And do they agree?

(Leaving aside the question of a lost boys group, or other others group, in the interior.)

[IMLOSTRU?]

I am sure the "teens" want the real world. They are tired of burnt muffins and book clubs with a bunch of sterile middle aged baby boomers.

[Unlocke Locke]

Since the others said they do have regular contact with the outside world, it came to me that it is the outside world that has directed Ben and his group to capture JKS. All for the various reasons of the outside world.

It could be that Jack's mother wanted him captured and returned home. She could be paying a large sum of money for his return and not wanting him to be harmed. Thats why they are feeding him but giving him no way to escape.

In addition, in Kate's case it could be that the FBI has directed Ben to capture and detain Kate for them. Since Kate is a fugitive they may not care how she is treated. Same with Sawyer. Both are fugitives from the law now. The outside world may have gotten tipped off by Ben that they are still alive. This could be why Kate and Sawyer are working on the chain gang and Jack is not.

[LostInWilderness]

I can see the FBI telling Ben to dress Kate real pretty, feed her a nice breakfast, then throw her in the animal cage and put her on a two person chain gang. Did Jack's mom want him imprisoned in a shark cage too?

The others are obviously dependent on external supplies, so I grant you that Ben may have to answer to higher ups from off the island, but I don't think it's the FBI or Jack's mom.

[interplanetjanet]

Sawyer has a record, but as of flight departure he wasn't wanted for anything.

[zetaprime]

Anyone else wonder how they manage to keep those antique video monitors working after all these years? Getting replacement tubes for those things has to be next to impossible, since they don't make 'em anymore. I remember they were sometimes hard to get at the local shop even in the days when they still made TV's with tubes. And those old sets were notoriously unreliable. I was around in those days and remember the frequent visits from the TV repairman and the times he had to take the chassis back the shop. A bank of 6 such screens that are clearly of 1950's vintage would be impossible to maintain for 50 years, especially if used as security monitors and left on for long stretches. Also odd is the fact that the cameras are quite a bit newer than the monitors. They didn't have cameras like that back when those things were made. Cameras of that day were HUGE and also full of tubes and other antique electronics. One would figure that if they replaced the cameras they'd have replaced those screens with something newer as well..like the equipment that they rolled into Jack's fish tank, which was of a more reasonably modern vintage.

[LostInWilderness]

The screens are most likely from the 70s, like the rest of Dharma. In my experience, most would still be working fine. And Dharma could well replace them with long stored extras.

[sals]

Anyone else wonder how they manage to keep those antique video monitors working after all these years? Getting replacement tubes for those things has to be next to impossible, since they don't make 'em anymore. I remember they were sometimes hard to get at the local shop even in the days when they still made TV's with tubes. And those old sets were notoriously unreliable. I was around in those days and remember the frequent visits from the TV repairman and the times he had to take the chassis back the shop. A bank of 6 such screens that are clearly of 1950's vintage would be impossible to maintain for 50 years, especially if used as security monitors and left on for long stretches. Also odd is the fact that the cameras are quite a bit newer than the monitors. They didn't have cameras like that back when those things were made. Cameras of that day were HUGE and also full of tubes and other antique electronics. One would figure that if they replaced the cameras they'd have replaced those screens with something newer as well..like the equipment that they rolled into Jack's fish tank, which was of a more reasonably modern vintage.


CRT tubes are still manufactured and most tv's under 35" are all CRT's. And all the pre-amp and other vacuum tubes are still readily available.

Even roundish tubes like the ones in the monitors are still manufactured, even B&W ones.

But you're right...new cameras, why not new monitors? Strange mix of state of the art and vintage everything on this island.


Sals

[zetaprime]

CRT tubes are still manufactured and most tv's under 35" are all CRT's. And all the pre-amp and other vacuum tubes are still readily available.

Even roundish tubes like the ones in the monitors are still manufactured, even B&W ones.

But you're right...new cameras, why not new monitors? Strange mix of state of the art and vintage everything on this island.


Sals

I was referring to the various vacuum tubes, not so much the CRT tubes. I still think those look like 1950's vintage. The old Philco TV my family had when I was growing up had exactly that kind of screen..and it was made in the early 1950's. By the 1960's the screens already had a more rectangular shape. And as far as tube availability, I doubt whether you can find all the various tubes that used to be used in TV sets. Some of them were hard to come by even in their day, let alone 50 years later on a remote island. I agree that there still is vacuum tube equipment, but I doubt whether many of the more specialized tubes that went into vintage TV's are made anymore.

[sals]

I was referring to the various vacuum tubes, not so much the CRT tubes. I still think those look like 1950's vintage. The old Philco TV my family had when I was growing up had exactly that kind of screen..and it was made in the early 1950's. By the 1960's the screens already had a more rectangular shape. And as far as tube availability, I doubt whether you can find all the various tubes that used to be used in TV sets. Some of them were hard to come by even in their day, let alone 50 years later on a remote island. I agree that there still is vacuum tube equipment, but I doubt whether many of the more specialized tubes that went into vintage TV's are made anymore.


Here ya go...enough tubes to build a Univac:

http://members.shaw.ca/pacifictv/MAIN.HTM#NOS


We had a Philco like this one...We even had the panther:

http://www.vintagetvsets.com/philcof.htm


All that aside, I think the ancient bank of monitors was just to give the viewer the sense of how old the facility is. In real life, any faciility that old would have been upgraded many times by now.

Sals

[bettsydaniel]

Did anyone notice that in the cage the bear feeder button had a knife and fork on it? Why would a button meant for bears have human symbology (i hope thats the word) that only humans would understand? Also something i saw raised was why would the fish biscuits have dharma written on them when they were supposedly meant for bears?

[juanbong]

Merging with another similar observations on the cages.

Thanks.

[LostInWilderness]

Of course he won't believe her - [Jack] is man of science. Everything must be tested and never just take anyones word for it. He has to fugure it out by means of the scientific method. Trial and error.
I've decided this isn't true. Jack is a man of faith masquarading as a man of science. He has faith in rational explanations. He has faith he will succeed despite overwhelming evidence each time he is failing. He was going to cut off Boone's leg despite knowing Boone was dying of internal injuries. He foolishly refused food and water to tug on a chain he could not free. It's all part of his ego. I think MoS,MoF was referring only to Jack as much as it was referring to Jack and Locke.

[Crandyman]

The psychological games continue for Sawyer, Jack and Kate in S3xE4 'Every Man For Himself'.

Jack:
Jack remains isolated as he still sits in the shark tank with no contact with Sawyer or Kate and very little contact with Juliette or Ben. Jack does, however, have the ‘enjoyment’ of watching cartoons while he sits and ponders the future intentions of the Others. The explanation of the cartoons could be of several different intentions. One, being a calm and relaxing medium for him to concentrate. Nothing with violent or sexual overtones nor any realistic expectations from the real world, like news media. Similar to the types of programming allowed in mental institutions, the cartoons provide a source of distraction with little imaginative influence. The other possible intention is that of punishment. I could not help but draw a comparison to ‘The Silence of the Lambs’, where Dr. Chilton places the television channel on religious programming and blasts the volume in front of Hannibal Lecters cell as a form of punishment. In Jacks case, the cartoons could be used as repercussions but I do not think that is fitting. That type of treatment is not necessary for Jack as negative reinforcement would only work against their goals of breaking him. Instead, the mind-numbing qualities of an infantile cartoon would more likely lower the hostilities of Jacks personality.
Then we have the matter of conditioning, as pertaining to Dr. Sheppard. Much like Pavlovs dog, Jack seems to have learned quite quickly what four taps on the door means. When Juliette knocked on the door, Jack glanced at the surveillance camera and calmly sat down against the wall. It looks as though Jack has adapted with haste to the Others demands with little debate. We should also note that the camera, too, plays a role in this psychological game. His look to the camera obviously points to his paranoia and feelings of helplessness and futility in his current situation. The idea of always “watching” is a very powerful tool in trying to change someone. It’s a very common practice. How many of us do one thing when were alone and another thing when people are watching?
Although it seems that Jack has given up quite easily, it appears that perhaps he has only changed his strategy. In his scene with Juliette, he flipped the psychological toying to her and the relationship between herself and Ben. As has been stated, it was eerily similar to the conversation between Locke and Ben in the hatch. Perhaps we should not give up so easily on the Doc after all. The game is still the same but the way to win it may have changed.

Sawyer:
This whole episode is one psychological chess game after another for Sawyer. First he was defeated when his scheme to shock Ben failed miserably. It was well planned, well setup and well executed; up to the point where he tried to do the shocking. In fact the only shock that occurred was the shock of Sawyers foiled plan. On top of being outsmarted by Ben he was then physically beaten by what seemed to be a well trained Ben with an ASP baton. Sawyer has been beaten many times so that would do nothing to his psyche but being outsmarted, now that can be damaging to a con-man. His game begins when he awakes on an operating table with a band-aid on his sternum and gauze padding near his left chest, over his heart. Just waking up and seeing that has already put his imagination to work and it’s just up to Ben to convince him that its true. Ben explains to Sawyer that a pacemaker has been inserted into his chest and that if his active heart rate exceeds 140 he will die. Now that in and of itself may not be enough to convince a man, that bluffs for a living, that he is telling the truth. So, Ben brings in the rabbit and instead shows Sawyer the effects of the apparent procedure that was just done to him. This was a very elaborate plan to control him. Once Sawyer believed their story, his actions would be controllable.
Now, control via fear is not the motives of Ben and the Others. If that were the case they would have never told him the truth; that it was all basically, a con. There was never anything placed inside him that would cause his heart to explode. The rabbit reveal at the end was a way that Ben could show Sawyer that he conned him and did so effectively. It was also a way to foreshadow another ‘truth’, that they were on a separate island than what he believed. This was all elaborate ploy to attempt to show Sawyer that an escape was futile. Like Ben said, “we did all this is because the only way to gain a con-mans respect is to con him”. The doubt they put in Sawyers head about his heart and the reveal that he was conned essentially made Sawyer understand that they were a lot smarter than he thought and maybe escape was not going to happen after all.

Kate:
Kate’s role in this episode, from a psychological standpoint is tough to garner. The scene where Pickett beats Sawyer whilst asking Kate if she loves him, referring to Sawyer, seems to be more out of passion by someone who lost a loved-one rather than a psychological experiment. However, the implications of the scene should not be overlooked. Deriving results from that type of situation are usually unreliable because the subject in question is under so much pressure that oftentimes the subject only responds how they think they are supposed to respond, and not with unbiased honesty. That’s why Kates answer to the question, “Do you love this man?” cannot be taken with credence. This is also supported later when Kate says that she only said it so that Pickett would stop beating him. Now, Kates confession shouldn’t really be trusted either as her fear of vulnerability and her trust issues are most likely at work there.
A couple of things stand out to me though. The most prominent one is why Pickett would even assume that Kate loved Sawyer? The only reason I can assume that he beat Sawyer in front of Kate is because he wanted someone else to feel how he felt. To understand the feeling of a loved-one being hurt or in his case killed. He is in effect, hurting Kate just as much as Sawyer, if she really does indeed love him. Do the Others have some information that we don’t know about that makes them believe that Kate and Sawyer love each other? Often times, victims feel worse about actions on their loved ones rather than themselves. This happens frequently when a parents child is involved. You will hear the pleas of, ‘do anything you want to me but leave my family alone.’ Whether it was an intended psychological test on Kate or not it still yielded similar results of one.

[Homer Noodleman]

You missed the fact that much of their manipulation of Sawyer involved Kate. If you'll recall, Sawyer was instructed not to tell Kate anything about the pacemaker supposedly installed in himself -- or they would install one in her.

It seems to me that was an effort to break the trust between Kate and Sawyer. In fact, when Sawyer was returned to his cage Kate knew something was wrong with the way Sawyer was acting and she didn't like it at all.

[Crandyman]

Valid point, but I am still suspect as to the reasoning behind telling him that. I mean, I don't think Kate lost any trust for Sawyer because he didn't tell her what happened. Similar to how Kate didn't say anything to Sawyer when she was placed in the cage initially after her 'breakfast' with Ben. However, you are correct, the point should not be overlooked. Perhaps it was more of test on Sawyer than anything else. To see how much he cared for Kate. The Others must obviously know that something is going on between them because at this juncture it seems as though their fates are intertwined.

[Homer Noodleman]

Crandyman,

I don't think you want to look at it too narrowly. I think that was mainly to move Kate's character forward. Flashback Kate left her childhood sweetheart bleeding in the front seat of her car to keep running. Season Three Kate climbs back into her cage because she is concerned about Sawyer's behavior.