Shattered--An analysis of Sun

[Frecklestoo]

I think the glass ballerina represents Sun and her need to "dance" around the men in her life. It's a delicate dance and one false move and her life is shattered. The repercussions affect more than just herself and leads to the shattering of other people's lives.

I think Sun lied as a child for the same reason all children do...to avoid getting in trouble. And quite frankly, if Mr. Paik were my father, I'd be pretty damn hesitant to tell him the truth, too. Sun also lied to Jin, and has several times on this show. It appears that in Sun's family, the men are boss and the women are submissive, or at least, very intimidated. Sun has learned to be independent, and do her own thing. So to lie to her husband is just a way to maintain independence.

Sun lied by having an affair which shattered her family honor and led her father to force Jin to kill Jae. Jin was finally pushed beyond his limits and the relationship with Mr. Paik was nearly shattered. Opposing Mr. Paik would have surely destroyed Jin's life. Sun's break-up with Jae shattered his heart, and their whole affair nearly ended his life (actually it DID end his life). Sun has spent her life dancing around the expectations of the men in her life. The one man she WANTS to be with, she can't be with and I would think that would be shattering to herself. Her character seems to be a study in grasping at independence and trying to have her own identity, and follow her own path, not one that is expected of her. One false move in Sun's life and someone gets destroyed, including Sun herself.

Shooting Colleen on the boat was just another example of Sun proving her independence by going against what was expected. I don't necessarily think this episode was meant to show Sun as a liar. I think it was meant to show how she has spent her life tip toeing around the power and authority of the men in her life. And how one false move can destroy it.

Okay, that's my two cents....:Hippy: What do you all think?

[korndiddy]

Great summary and analysis of the character and the symbolism within this episode. I think that this will prove insightful for many.

[Frecklestoo]

Thanks, kd!:)

[LAH LAH]

Thank you F2...it is an enjoyable read...but one thing struck me while watching last nights episode...Sun seemed more defiant than independent...

She was undoubtably spoiled growing up and I think that transitioned into Sun gets what Sun wants...my view of Sun changed after watching the epi last night...

My two cents... :D

[LAN]

I think your summary is excellent F2. Here is why....

Most people in the other threads are making it a Sun vs Jin issue....and you avoided all mention of that. I think it is a frustrating case where Sun and Jin both want the same thing direly....but due to the family situation (Jin being forced to bow down to Mr Paik) they cant have it. Unlike Jack, whom I dont really think ever truly loved Sarah, I think Jin loves Sun more than anything in the world...we have seen many times where he is willing to change, apologize, relent and go against his own morals, just to keep Mr Paik happy, and to be able to be with Sun.

It is a vicious catch 22. In order to be with Sun, Jin is forced to turn into a savage animal. Sun despises the new Jin, and doesnt want to be with a man like that. So both characters are fighting to find a way to be with each other, but cannot remove the shackles they are in. Well, not until the moment in the airport when Sun decides to stay with Jin, and they foreseeably can run off into the sunset after Jin's last job.

[cinderellabop]

asian men (sorry, I'm not sure what country Sun and Jin are from)

They are from Korea. :)

[Frecklestoo]

Thank you F2...it is an enjoyable read...but one thing struck me while watching last nights episode...Sun seemed more defiant than independent...

She was undoubtably spoiled growing up and I think that transitioned into Sun gets what Sun wants...my view of Sun changed after watching the epi last night...

My two cents... :D

I agree that she's defiant, but I think it's due to her pursuit of independence. It's the only way she CAN be independent. Simply expressing her desires would get her nowhere because she's immediately put in her place. She's almost like a rebellious teenager.

Sometimes people lie as a form of self-preservation, and I think that's why Sun comes across as deceitful. I don't think she has malicious intentions, I think she feels trapped by a family that holds women back.

LAN...I like your catch-22 idea. I hadn't thought of that, but it's a good point. However, I'm not sure if Sun loves Jin the way he loves her. I wonder if Sun would have gone with Jin at the airport if Jae were still alive. I think she loved Jae and his willingness to let her be who she wanted to be.

[BujuPhunk]

I too enjoyed your summary and agree with you on many levels. I think the Glass Ballerina was a metaphor for the "wholesome" facade of Sun - which is as fragile as any other regular woman who is both difiant and independant. It is hard to be all three. But, I believe she wants to please everyone as she has been brought up to do. I think she thought Jae was what she wanted, when she realizes that it is Jin that she wants - just under different circumstances. She has to turn him down and then live with the guilt that he "killed" himself for her - the guilt - now, perhaps - that she may be pregnant with another mans child. I think, too, they were not trying to demonize her, but rather, bring her back down to earth - she has issues when her inner demons, just like the rest of our Losties.

My $5 bucks worth...haha

[Frecklestoo]

I too enjoyed your summary and agree with you on many levels. I think the Glass Ballerina was a metaphor for the "wholesome" facade of Sun - which is as fragile as any other regular woman who is both difiant and independant. It is hard to be all three. But, I believe she wants to please everyone as she has been brought up to do. I think she thought Jae was what she wanted, when she realizes that it is Jin that she wants - just under different circumstances. She has to turn him down and then live with the guilt that he "killed" himself for her - the guilt - now, perhaps - that she may be pregnant with another mans child. I think, too, they were not trying to demonize her, but rather, bring her back down to earth - she has issues when her inner demons, just like the rest of our Losties.

My $5 bucks worth...haha

Thanks for the $5...here's $2.50 back!:nanabobo: Just teasing, Mandi...it's obvious that Sun has a lot of inner turmoil...it'll be interesting to see what else we find out about her.

[Lawboy]

We did learn that Sun is a liar. But not only that, but capable of betrayal of the worst kind. She obviously has issues with her father, and Jin has now become the extension of that through her actions. Jin=Paik after working for him for so long and taking on his ruthless callousness. He was no longer the Jin she loved, the one different from her father. She rebelled against her father all her life, and then did so against Jin. She is callous and much more selfish than expected. She can not now be believed or trusted to act as one might expect.

[TheTempest]

Did anyone notice the piano piece that young Sun was playing on the piano?

Martini's Plaisir d'Amour

Plaisir d'amour ne dure qu'un moment,
Chagrin d'amour dure toute la vie.
J'ai tout quitté pour l'ingrate Sylvie,
Elle me quitte et prend un autre amant .
Plaisir d'amour ne dure qu'un moment,
Chagrin d'amour dure toute la vie.
"Tant que cette eau coulera doucement
Vers ce ruisseau qui borde la prairie,
Je t'aimerai", me répétait Sylvie.
L'eau coule encor, elle a changé pourtant.
Plaisir d'amour ne dure qu'un moment,
Chagrin d'amour dure toute la vie.

Roughly translates to: (sorry my French is horribly rusty)
The joys of love are but a moment long,
The heartache of love lasts for life.
I have left everything for ungrateful Sylvia,
But she left me and took another lover.
The joys of love are but a moment long,
The heartache of love lasts for life.
"As long as the water flows gently
To the stream that borders the meadow,
I will love you", repeated Sylvia to me.
The water still flows, yet she has changed.
The joys of love are but a moment long,
The heartache of love lasts for life.


Where's Camel when you need him?

[USAWYERMEK8]

Hey, I agree with the whole Shattered take on Sun...overall I speculate they are painting a picture that Sun is capable of a whole lot more than what we think...or even what the Others think about her. i.e., Colleen, you DON'T know Sun and that's why you got your bellybutton blown off. And Jae, You don't know Sun either and that's why we'll probably see that she did finish up her hubby's dirty work. Certainly this gal will again prove herself useful in future battles with the Others!

BTW, what's with the AMEX lock out deal to abc's website? Sorry I'm not one of the priveledged...but glad to have found losttv-forum! :)

[Jindo]

Culturally, asian men (sorry, I'm not sure what country Sun and Jin are from) are boss and their wives are submissive. Sun has learned to be independent, and do her own thing. So to lie to her husband in that culture is just a way to maintain independence.

For someone positioning him/herself as some kind of an expert in "things Asian," it's rather telling that you didn't even know they were Korean. So... where do you get your "Asian knowledge" from, other than Hollywood movies?

Keen observation of Sun's character, but I thought the minor call-out was in order... Sorry if I've changed the tone of the thread.

[Frecklestoo]

For someone positioning him/herself as some kind of an expert in "things Asian," it's rather telling that you didn't even know they were Korean. So... where do you get your "Asian knowledge" from, other than Hollywood movies?

Keen observation of Sun's character, but I thought the minor call-out was in order... Sorry if I've changed the tone of the thread.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to make an inaccurate observation or trying to be offensive by stereotyping a different culture. If I'm wrong about that statement, then I apologize. However, I don't think I positioned myself as an expert, merely an observer. If you have some other more accurate knowledge about the asian cultures, please feel free to share it.

[drabauer]

I have many Korean friends and students, and they would be greatly offended by your blanket description of "Asian" cultures. However, none of them watch Lost, so I can't get their response to last night! :(

I can tell you that Koreans have lots of differences, although I certainly don't want to venture into male-female relations; it has also been in the news recently that Japanese women are sekking Korean husbands, and that there are dozens of match-making services with that "theme." Which, of course, represents a complete turnaround regarding the regard with which Japanese traditionally view Koreans.

My Korean students talk more about the difference between urban and rural cultures in contemporary South Corea, which has certainly been a theme in Jina and Sun's backstory.

[Frecklestoo]

Okay, I went back and reworded my original post and took out the offending part. I really wasn't trying to be offensive and I apologize to anyone who thinks I was.:( I didn't realize what a blanket statement it was until it was pointed out to me.

[UKLostie]

Maybe we should cut Frecklestoo some slack people, it was an honest mistake and she has apologised and rectified her original statement, We are only human right, we make mistakes.

I think the observations made were very insightful and paints a picture of a young girl with a strict upbringing, trying to please the men in her life and avoid confrontation, but at the same time trying to prove to herself that she is her own woman with independant thought's.

[Frecklestoo]

Thanks, UKL...I appreciate the support!:)

[Moondogger]

Shooting what's-her-face on the boat was just another example of Sun proving her independence by going against what was expected.

I have to disagree with you here. When Sayid tells Sun that she will be safer in the boat, he tells her that there is a gun under the blue tarp, just in case the Others get past them and enter the boat. Sun responds by saying that "if they get past you, that means my husband is dead, and I won't care any more." To me this statement doesn't prove her independence, but rather her love and dedication to her husband. If Jin is dead, she wouldn't care if she lives or dies and that's why she shot the Other. She didn't know Jin was still alive, most likely she was convinced the Others killed him and Sayid.

So, to me, Sun's statement to Sayid, shows her utmost commitment and dependence on her husband, that if he is dead, she might as well be dead too.

[TheWatcher]

Nice job Freck...this whole thing is a good read...and mandi hit it to...Sun is like the rest of our losties...( and this is not about race) but about the fact they have inner demons...each one of them..no matter who or what they are,

You go sistah!

[interplanetjanet]

She didn't know Jin was still alive, most likely she was convinced the Others killed him and Sayid.

From the lack of gunfire, she might have guessed the others had done the sneaking thing again. But she wouldn't know, so props to her for shooting and escaping.

[Frecklestoo]

I have to disagree with you here. When Sayid tells Sun that she will be safer in the boat, he tells her that there is a gun under the blue tarp, just in case the Others get past them and enter the boat. Sun responds by saying that "if they get past you, that means my husband is dead, and I won't care any more." To me this statement doesn't prove her independence, but rather her love and dedication to her husband. If Jin is dead, she wouldn't care if she lives or dies and that's why she shot the Other. She didn't know Jin was still alive, most likely she was convinced the Others killed him and Sayid.

So, to me, Sun's statement to Sayid, shows her utmost commitment and dependence on her husband, that if he is dead, she might as well be dead too.

Nowhere in my post did I say that Sun doesn't love Jin or feel dedicated to him. But she HAS lied to him several times, been deceitful and gone against his wishes, including in her conversations with Sayid in last night's episode. When Colleen came on the boat Sun said to her "just let me get off the boat." When Colleen said "I know who you are Sun and you won't shoot me," Sun shot her. To me that was an act of defiance and independence against Colleen, not Jin. If she thought Jin was dead and didn't care if she lived or died, why did she ask to get off the boat?

[Verite Garde]

Love the analysis.

Big message in last night's eppie?

Sun is a lair.

Throughout the episode last night all the Korean dialogue was subtitled except in one scene. It was before Sun went to back to the Elizabeth when she and Jin were talking to eachother and Sayid was in the background.

Why were we kept from knowing what they were saying? It was a fairly lengthy conversation.

Is Sun lying to Sayid and Jin?

[Frecklestoo]

Hey, I agree with the whole Shattered take on Sun...overall I speculate they are painting a picture that Sun is capable of a whole lot more than what we think...or even what the Others think about her. i.e., Colleen, you DON'T know Sun and that's why you got your bellybutton blown off. And Jae, You don't know Sun either and that's why we'll probably see that she did finish up her hubby's dirty work. Certainly this gal will again prove herself useful in future battles with the Others!


I completely agree with you. There is a whole lot more to Sun than her family knows, or Jin knows, or anyone knows. Sun has managed to become her own person in spite of being oppressed throughout her life. And that's where the dance comes in. She's trying to balance the expectations of her family/husband, and her own needs/desires. Sun walks a fine line between independence and family honor/expectations. When she loses her balance, things/people come crashing down.

As is always the case with Lost, we could learn a whole lot more about Sun that will completely throw off my entire analysis. Only time will tell us what the entire truth is about her.

[Jindo]

Sorry for the delay in response--major time difference here. Thanks Frecklestoo for the edit; I think it was your wording more than anything else (e.g., "asian men," "that culture") that made it sound like you knew what you were talking about, which jarred with the "I'm not sure what country..." comment.

In any case, as I said in my initial reply, I do think it's a keen take on Sun's character, more deeply observed than a simple "She's a liar/she's got a dark side/Losties are full of surprises," etc.

Throughout the episode last night all the Korean dialogue was subtitled except in one scene. It was before Sun went to back to the Elizabeth when she and Jin were talking to eachother and Sayid was in the background.

Why were we kept from knowing what they were saying? It was a fairly lengthy conversation.

Are you talking about the scene just before Sayid tells Sun about the gun in the boat? It wasn't a lengthy conversation, and it was just Jin saying to Sun, "Get back in the boat. Go!" which Sayid then reiterates. It's the only non-subtitled part I could find.

Sort of off-topic: I noticed some curious subtitling errors, like when Jin seemingly reverts back to his Season 1 bullying ways by saying on the boat "Sayid is not your husband!" He actually said "Sayid is not the one pregnant!" DDK ad-libbing??

[Frecklestoo]

Sorry for the delay in response--major time difference here. Thanks Frecklestoo for the edit; I think it was your wording more than anything else (e.g., "asian men," "that culture") that made it sound like you knew what you were talking about, which jarred with the "I'm not sure what country..." comment.

In any case, as I said in my initial reply, I do think it's a keen take on Sun's character, more deeply observed than a simple "She's a liar/she's got a dark side/Losties are full of surprises," etc.


You're welcome for the edit...I really feel bad when I offend someone. And thank you for the compliment about my analysis.:)

[AceOfDiamonds]

Sorry, I'm not buying the friendly pseudo-feminist version of Sun's behavior as merely striving for "independence." Simply put, Sun was relatively independent from the very beginning. Her father did not throttle or limit her potential to live a successful life. She chose to fall in love with Jin and marry him. She chose to ignore the long-term ramifications of Jin working for her own father. When she started actively opposing Jin's new line of work, it was already too late. Jin was too far entrenched in her father's system to feasibly live if he tried to escape. In fact, we now know Jin was trying to escape by getting on Oceanic Flight 815, and we saw one of Paik's agents stop him in his tracks.

Sun gave into temptation and decided to engage in an affair with Jae. Intriguingly, even her father seems to give Sun the opportunity to do the right thing. At Jae's funeral, Paik tells Sun that it isn't his perogative to tell Jin about the affair. Even Paik, despite his rather insane view of morality, seems in this scene to hint that Sun should take responsibility for her mistakes and tell Jin the truth.

But of course, Sun does not tell the truth. In fact, Sun has a horrible reputation -- in comparison to Jin himself, who's been relatively honest even with the language barriers, and most of the other Losties -- of compulsive lying. She lies to Jin about her fertility. She decieves Jin regarding Jae. She decieves Jin, as well as the other Losties, about her capacity to understand English. She decieves Jin and Micheal by poisoning Micheal and refuses to come clean with her complicity. Those of you who think this episode is the first where Sun compulsively lies haven't gotten to know the girl.

Honestly the more I see of Sun the sicker I am of her. Funny, because at the beginning of the show I hated Jin and felt empathy for Sun's situation. Now it's almost the exact opposite. As Jin continues to make highly moral desicions (starting really with the end of Season One when he chose to forgive Michael and help Michael build the raft, and going into Season Two, as his relationships with Sawyer, Michael, Sun, etc all improved drastically), Sun continues to make highly immoral ones.

But wait... Jin not only makes highly moral desicions on the island, he also seems to make the most moral desicions in his flashbacks! From his sweet and almost-comparatively-healthy relationship with his father, who he dearly loves despite their socioeconomic differences, to his seeming inability to murder anyone he's ordered to murder, Jin just keeps making right desicions. How the hell can I not love this guy? Seriously, if there's anyone on this island who's actually getting things right, changing for the better, and trying his damnedest to become a better person, it's Jin -- unfortunately that probably just means he's going to be the next one to die.

[airlybird]

Very insightfull analysis Frecklestoo, good job:bump:

[drabauer]

Wow Ace, you are so on point in your analysis! WHile Jin isn't always cuddly, he is living the life that Jack only pretends, while we have seen Sun take after Kate.

That's my new theory: Sun and Jin are the new Kate and Jack. Jin is more moral than Jack will ever be, while Sun may be more of a natural outlaw.

[Jindo]

But wait... Jin not only makes highly moral desicions on the island, he also seems to make the most moral desicions in his flashbacks! From his sweet and almost-comparatively-healthy relationship with his father, who he dearly loves despite their socioeconomic differences, to his seeming inability to murder anyone he's ordered to murder, Jin just keeps making right desicions. How the hell can I not love this guy?

While I like the character of Jin too (if my handle's any indication), let's not go overboard! For whatever reason that we can all sympathize with, he was a thug for a mob boss, after all. Yes, it was his love for Sun, and no, he's not a bad guy at heart (as we're realizing more and more), but let's also not paint him as some victim who had no choice but to follow "the path."

Seriously, if there's anyone on this island who's actually getting things right, changing for the better, and trying his damnedest to become a better person, it's Jin"Changing for the better" -- ok, this part I definitely agree with, and I can also understand that everybody makes mistakes, and that Jin's whole involvement with Paik was one big slippery-slope-type of mistake. But deciding not to blow the brains out of an innocent (as far as he knew) man after you beat the crap out of him doesn't exactly reset the moral compass for the rest of us.

[Homer Noodleman]

Wow Ace, you are so on point in your analysis! WHile Jin isn't always cuddly, he is living the life that Jack only pretends, while we have seen Sun take after Kate.

That's my new theory: Sun and Jin are the new Kate and Jack. Jin is more moral than Jack will ever be, while Sun may be more of a natural outlaw.

It isn't as simple as a straight mapping.

Sun and Jack, the two on the island with medical skills (and I still say Sun's medical knowledge is more akin to Locke walking than anything) were both children of fathers who were prominent professionals. Both Sun and Jack's fathers were very overbearing.

Kate and Jin come from far more humble origins, with the fisherman and the farmer both being food providers. Also, when Paik tells Jin he is now his son, Jin joins Kate as being the only castaway with two fathers -- one good and one bad.

There is a wierd twist to the pattern, with Jack/Kate being echoed in Jin/Sun, but a certain amount of mirroring also taking place.

[LAH LAH]

Thank you F2...it is an enjoyable read...but one thing struck me while watching last nights episode...Sun seemed more defiant than independent...

She was undoubtedly spoiled growing up and I think that transitioned into Sun gets what Sun wants...my view of Sun changed after watching the epi last night...

My two cents... :D

Sorry, I'm not buying the friendly pseudo-feminist version of Sun's behavior as merely striving for "independence." Simply put, Sun was relatively independent from the very beginning. Her father did not throttle or limit her potential to live a successful life.

AoD...As you can see from my previous post...I agree. I saw Sun working more off of "princess syndrome" than working to be independent. I think Sun grew up very differently than the other women around her due to her circumstances. TPTB have done a great job of painting the bigger picture in regards to how powerful and influential her father was...therfore from what we have seen, she becomes elite. What Sun wants, Sun gets...I think it worked for her growing up and patterns are hard to break.

[Frecklestoo]

Sorry, I'm not buying the friendly pseudo-feminist version of Sun's behavior as merely striving for "independence." Simply put, Sun was relatively independent from the very beginning. Her father did not throttle or limit her potential to live a successful life. She chose to fall in love with Jin and marry him. She chose to ignore the long-term ramifications of Jin working for her own father. When she started actively opposing Jin's new line of work, it was already too late. Jin was too far entrenched in her father's system to feasibly live if he tried to escape. In fact, we now know Jin was trying to escape by getting on Oceanic Flight 815, and we saw one of Paik's agents stop him in his tracks.

Sun gave into temptation and decided to engage in an affair with Jae. Intriguingly, even her father seems to give Sun the opportunity to do the right thing. At Jae's funeral, Paik tells Sun that it isn't his perogative to tell Jin about the affair. Even Paik, despite his rather insane view of morality, seems in this scene to hint that Sun should take responsibility for her mistakes and tell Jin the truth.

But of course, Sun does not tell the truth. In fact, Sun has a horrible reputation -- in comparison to Jin himself, who's been relatively honest even with the language barriers, and most of the other Losties -- of compulsive lying. She lies to Jin about her fertility. She decieves Jin regarding Jae. She decieves Jin, as well as the other Losties, about her capacity to understand English. She decieves Jin and Micheal by poisoning Micheal and refuses to come clean with her complicity. Those of you who think this episode is the first where Sun compulsively lies haven't gotten to know the girl.

Honestly the more I see of Sun the sicker I am of her. Funny, because at the beginning of the show I hated Jin and felt empathy for Sun's situation. Now it's almost the exact opposite. As Jin continues to make highly moral desicions (starting really with the end of Season One when he chose to forgive Michael and help Michael build the raft, and going into Season Two, as his relationships with Sawyer, Michael, Sun, etc all improved drastically), Sun continues to make highly immoral ones.

But wait... Jin not only makes highly moral desicions on the island, he also seems to make the most moral desicions in his flashbacks! From his sweet and almost-comparatively-healthy relationship with his father, who he dearly loves despite their socioeconomic differences, to his seeming inability to murder anyone he's ordered to murder, Jin just keeps making right desicions. How the hell can I not love this guy? Seriously, if there's anyone on this island who's actually getting things right, changing for the better, and trying his damnedest to become a better person, it's Jin -- unfortunately that probably just means he's going to be the next one to die.

Did I miss something? How do we know that Sun was independent from the beginning? How do we know that Paik allowed her to live a successful life? I believe all we've seen of Paik and Sun's relationship is Paik being domineering. Sun DID choose to fall in love with Jin, but that was before he was working for her father. Did she know what her father did for a living and how evil he is? I don't think she had much say in what Jin did or her father did. Everytime she expressed herself to Jin, he shot her down.

Yes, you're right. She absolutely gave in to temptation and that was completely wrong and immoral. However, I think Sun loved Jin also and didn't want to hurt him by revealing her affair. I'm sure there was self-preservation involved too.

Sun has lied. But I get the impression that her lying is not malicious. She lied about Jin's infertility and decided not to tell him that HE was the one who was infertile. Again, maybe she did that to spare his feelings of shame, etc. She lied about the fact that she knew English, but why is that such a big deal to keep secret? I think she lived in fear and was afraid that if she revealed her knowledge of English, Jin would have cut her off. I think learning English started off innocently enough, but then of course led to the affair. She couldn't tell Jin she learned English from Jae.

I agree that Jin does have good morals and it's obvious from the flashbacks that he had a difficult time carrying out Paik's orders. But, I disagree at this point that Sun is highly immoral asa general personality trait. I think she's been intimidated from day one, and has learned how to get what she wants by being deceptive. And she has done highly immoral things and lied and been deceptive at times, but I don't think she's a bad person. The affair was wrong no matter how you look at it, but I think most of her deception has been in order to live an authentic life and not to hurt people.

Of course, if Sun turns out to be an evil, murdering whore, I'll gladly eat my words.:)

[interplanetjanet]

I'm between Freckles's and Ace's positions.

When Sun and Jin met, I think neither of them knew much about what Mr. Paik did. Sun's may have been deliberate, or it may have been a normal 20-year old's lack of interest in the details of dad's business practices. While they choose to fall in love, despite the known class barriers, I don't think either suspects that leaving the mafia will be what imperils their bond in a few years.

Twice, at their engagement and in Glass Ballerina, Sun has suggested running away to America. The first time, we deduce that's unworkable, but they don't. Jin wants to do the honorable thing. He'll sacrifice his dreams to have Sun.
Later, they both know running isn't so easy, but Sun still wants to try. At this point Jin has sacrificed a fair bit of his honor to have Sun, as he tells her. Every bad thing he has done, he claims, is for her, because it's required to have her.

One thing that's striking is that Mr. Paik has a much clearer, and truer, view of Jin's character than does Sun. Mr. Paik knows Jin will not kill for him. Sun knows he does something that covers his hands in blood, and when she asks what, he tells her it's what he must do, what he does for them.

Also on Jin's character, while Jin seems to have a warm relationship with his father, it seems to be the first time they've communicated in years. His father didn't know he was married, which surely happened a few years ago. Jin's tried to shut that part of his life away in shame, even claiming to his new family that his father was dead.

I think deceiving everyone about the English was easy. She was planning to run. When she decided to stay, she couldn't bring that up. (She could have passed it off as something to fill her days, but not why she didn't reveal it in Australia, where it would have come in handy.) When the plane crashed, they all expected to be rescued soon, so she didn't bring it up. Then time passed, and everything she had to explain had grown: why she learned, why she covered it up from him, why it went on and on.

Last season Sun and Jin were two who enjoyed a rare chance to grow without tripping over their pasts, as kept happening to most characters in season 1. In Glass Ballerina, we see this happening: Sun lies, hoping to evade detection; Jin sulks and won't talk to her, rather than talk about what's wrong. I hope this season can keep them both growing, rather than stewing. Some missteps make good storytelling; remaining forever stuck does not.

[Don12345]

Does anybody know the name of that classical tune that Sun was playing on the piano when she was a child?

[Noav Sigless]

Don, your question is answered in this thread.
Merged.

[AceOfDiamonds]

Did I miss something? How do we know that Sun was independent from the beginning? How do we know that Paik allowed her to live a successful life? I believe all we've seen of Paik and Sun's relationship is Paik being domineering. Sun DID choose to fall in love with Jin, but that was before he was working for her father. Did she know what her father did for a living and how evil he is? I don't think she had much say in what Jin did or her father did. Everytime she expressed herself to Jin, he shot her down.

What I mean by Sun being independent is this:
* Paik did not force Sun to marry a particular man; she was allowed to make that choice in her life.
* Paik has not forced Sun to work in a particular city.
* Paik has not kept Sun "under his thumb;" Sun does not live with him, and Sun herself has acknowledged that she could easily disappear from Paik's grasp and suffer no consequences (it is JIN's life, and NOT Sun's, that is threatened when Paik sends his henchman after Jin to stop Jin from leaving the country; Paik is more concerned about losing the employee and the value of his work as opposed to losing contact with his own daughter.)

Thus, Sun is reasonably independent. Paik does not make decisions for her. Yes, Paik is a domineering bastard who can clearly make Sun's life miserable if he wants to, but it's interesting to note that in "The Glass Ballerina," in two separate circumstances, Paik basically allows Sun to "get away" with a crime -- despite knowing that she is responsible for immoral behavior. Paik's relationship with Sun is clearly not terribly abusive because he allows Sun to blame the maid without consequences, and he does not take any action against Sun when he catches her shaming his family name by sleeping with Jae. In fact, Paik is complicit in the cover-up, and merely tells Sun that it's her responsibility -- and not his -- to tell Jin the truth. He treats her in that scene as a mature woman and not a child, which would suggest that while he may be an evil bastard with his business associates, he actually may not have ever severely mistreated his daughter.

Sun chose to marry Jin despite understanding that the consequences of the marriage would basically necessitate Jin working for her father, who she knew -- even if only vaguely -- was involved in some immoral behavior. What bothers me most about Sun's behavior torward Jin in the flashbacks, though, is that Sun blames Jin and not Paik for the immorality of the behavior her father is forcing her husband to do.

Let's review this:
* Sun knows her father is an evil, sinful man.
* Sun never once confronts her father about Paik's evil, sinful desicions. Even as an adult, she does nothing to stop Paik from his corrupt little corporate games. She doesn't even say a single disrespectful word to him.
* More importantly than her direct actions torwards Paik, Sun never seems to even allow herself to get angry with Paik in private; she never condemns her father in front of Jin; her anger is almost always directed to Jin himself.
* Jin clearly is not an evil man and he does not agree with Paik's practices. Even Sun can sense this.
And here's the kicker:
* Sun vents out all her bullcrap on Jin, and blames him for the dissolution of their romance as well as the immoral behavior of his job. Sun is angry at Jin because Jin is, in essence, an easier target for her to rail against. Jin is actually sympathetic and surprisingly weak around her because of his own morality; Sun exploits this to make Jin feel like crap for what he's doing. But despite Sun's amazingly high-pitched objections to Jin's behavior she merely tolerates her father; despite being her father's daughter, and thus having a great level of personal access to her father in which she could lobby or sway his practices, Sun refuses to even attempt a conversation with Paik; and Sun passively allows her father's unethical treatments to continue unopposed.

The difference between Sun and Jin in regards to Mr. Paik is this; Jin at least can fall back on the justification that he commits his immoral deeds out of his love for Sun and, in addition, he can point to a continuing trend of ethical desicion-making in which he essentially commits just enough to both please Mr. Paik (thus protecting him and Sun) as well as protecting the lives of the innocent men he is sent to kill (he never kills anyone.) Heck, most of the folks on Lost have pasts as murderers and killers; by contrast Jin actually has a better reason to kill Jae than most the other Losties had reasons to kill their targets, but of course, Jin upholds the spirit of his convictions and lets Jae go off relatively scot-free.

By contrast, Sun commits her immoral practices of deception and manipulation and lust with Jae because she can. She lashes out against Jin when, in fact, she really should be angry with Paik. Her anger is misdirected and she makes no effort to realize the error of her behavior. Instead, she continually -- even on the island, as Jin is reforming himself -- she still keeps on her compulsive lying. She lies about the English, she lies about the poisoning, she lies about Jae and the pregnancy, and then she has the audacity to place the entirety of the blame on the failure of their relationship as Jin's fault. When Jin and Sun hit rocky times in their relationship, Sun quickly accuses Jin of the 'short temper' crap.

That's also actually a good sign of Jin's own superior morality right there -- despite the fact that Sun inarguably commits far greater sins against Jin than Jin commits against her (hell, Sun's even the one who slaps Jin in the flashback, not the other way around as we'd be led to expect), Jin has the moral audacity to suck it up and refuse to accuse Sun of having faults. He chooses to love her anyway, and even loves her when he believes there is little hope for their relationship. She does not offer him the same respect; she sleeps around with Jae (and lies about it) instead. Or she learns English (and lies about it) instead. Or she tries to poison him (and lies about it) instead. She pretends to be Jin's lover and closest friend, only to continually backstab him, only to continually betray his trust.

Think about it this way; Jin loves Sun so much he is willing to sacrifice his own nobility and become a thug just to be with her; instead of recognizing the value of this sacrifice, Sun just keeps on spitting on his grave.


Yes, you're right. She absolutely gave in to temptation and that was completely wrong and immoral. However, I think Sun loved Jin also and didn't want to hurt him by revealing her affair. I'm sure there was self-preservation involved too.

If you really love someone, if you TRULY love someone, you tell him or her when you've made a mistake.
That's the greatest form of love right there; confession of guilt. Sun doesn't love Jin enough to tell him the truth, regardless of the consequences; that her self-preservation is more important than his well-being in and of itself is a bad sign.
By contrast, Jin has been pretty much above-board with telling Sun the honest truth, even when it means telling her that he doesn't see the relationship working out (as he did way back in Season One, I believe.)

Sun has lied. But I get the impression that her lying is not malicious.

She got her maid fired, she nearly damn well killed Michael, she sleeps around with some sauve English-speaking aristocrat, and wouldn't 'fess up to any of it, and now Jin may have to raise a child that may not even be his own? That's malicious lying in a nutshell.

I think she's been intimidated from day one, and has learned how to get what she wants by being deceptive.

No, you see, you misinterpet my definition of morality and immorality in regards to Lost.

The reason why Jin is the most moral Lostie is because he has recognized his failures, confessed to his mistakes and shown genuine desire to grow and change into a better man. Hell, he's apologized to Sun and told her that much. Jin is moral not just because of his behavior in the flashbacks -- though not killing his targets as the thugie only improves my perspective of him -- but also, more importantly, because Jin has used the island as an opportunity to promote positive change.

Meanwhile, Sun was a lying, manipulative bitch who spat on Jin's honor and worth as a human being repeatedly by refusing to tell him the truth about anything.
Sun is still a lying, manipulative bitch who spits on Jin's honor and worth as a human being repeatedly by refusing to tell him the truth about anything. Sun has shown no desire to change her ways. She's stagnant, still indulging in her old habits.

That fact alone speaks volumes as to why I believe Jin is an amazing, uprighteous, and dignified character. And it speaks volumes as to why I believe Sun is not any of those things.

[Frecklestoo]

You know, Ace, those really are some great points. I will definitely keep them in mind as I watch what Sun does/says in the upcoming season. I couldn't stand Jin in the beginning of this show, but you're right, he really is one of the most moral characters on the show. And now that I think about the interactions you mentioned between Mr. Paik and Sun, he did give her more leeway than you'd expect from a man who is so evil/powerful.

Your ideas are definitely some food for thought.:)

[interplanetjanet]

* Sun knows her father is an evil, sinful man.
* Sun never once confronts her father about Paik's evil, sinful desicions. Even as an adult, she does nothing to stop Paik from his corrupt little corporate games. She doesn't even say a single disrespectful word to him.
* More importantly than her direct actions torwards Paik, Sun never seems to even allow herself to get angry with Paik in private; she never condemns her father in front of Jin; her anger is almost always directed to Jin himself.
* Jin clearly is not an evil man and he does not agree with Paik's practices. Even Sun can sense this.
Whoa. The young Sun probably did not know her father was an evil, sinful man. She knew he was a powerful man who might not approve of her marriage to Jin, and pushed for an elopement. The strategy "easier to ask forgiveness than permission" is hardly unique to her; people who knew their parents wouldn't approve of their spouse have been running off for millennia.

The art history and matchmaking aren't exactly grooming Sun as the young capo: quite likely she comes to know what her father is by what her father makes Jin do: something with blood on the hands. And the kicker is that he won't tell her what he did, what he was ordered to do, what he is or isn't willing to do--he tells her he does "this" so he can be married to her.

Possibly Sun refuses to challenge her father; possibly she tries and is told "Ask your husband." I have the impression that Sun and Paik's interaction now largely goes through Jin.

There's blame for both here: if Sun would assert herself more with either man to know what the situaion is, that would have been a good move. She could tell her father she wanted out for both of them; who knows, it could have worked. But Jin could have told Sun something other than "to be with you, this is what I must do, this is who I must be." He won't work with her at all, won't respond to her suggestions that they try to escape for a new life in America, won't let her have some say in the stakes so they could present a united front to Mr. Paik. At the point where she's leaving it might be reasonable for Sun to conclude that, with her gone, Jin could escape her father and be the man she once fell in love with. With her there, he refuses to discuss defying her father.

[carmela]

I loved the insight we recieved into Sun and Jin with this epsiode and the subsequent discussions (like this thread) that have resulted.

I always thought Sun to be the most compelling of the female Losties. She is an interesting combination of good and bad, priviledged and desperate. Her "rich girl" background is brought down-to-earth with her knowledge of herbs and gardening. She has also proven to be of great help to Jack in medical crisis (Boone, Shannon).

Sun and Jin are amazingly complex, as are all of the Losties. Its great to see that TPTB are finally showing the "all sides" of these characters, rather than the one-dimensional view we got in S2.

[LostInWilderness]

Am I the only one who learned nothing about Sun? We already knew she was a liar. We already knew she was manipulative. Except for some religious disbelievers, we already knew she was having an affair. I had no doubt she would shoot Colleen before she would be captured. So, what did we learn?

[r.hyythloday]

Liar? Isn't everyone at some point?

What I took from this episode is part of a pattern on Lost. Throughout we see characters repeating mistakes as if stuck in a neurotic holding pattern. Here we see a young Sun betray her maid; her father knows the maid didn't break the ballerina, but he wants to show Sun the consequences of her betrayal, so he fires the maid. Paik seems disgusted that his daughter would be so insensitive to an employee. Then, adult Sun betrays Jin, who, like the maid, is working class. Paik is again disgusted at her betrayal. So Sun has a thing about betraying working class people in her life. Maybe she married Jin in part because of her earlier guilt--who knows? Just as Locke works out his feelings of being a pawn and Eko his feeling of losing a "righteous" path, so Sun is working out her pattern of betrayal. . .

[LostInWilderness]

That's a great observation. These people never learn.