The Others vs. The OTHERS

[truffula]

Time to let loose a little here. :D

"My name is Benjamin Linus, and I've lived on this Island all my life"
Well then, this predates DHARMA for sure.

And that means only one thing - DHARMA was just a side project in the Hanso family's true objective (whatever that may be).

Lets look at the facts.
Magnus Hanso was the captain of the Black Rock. It disappeared in 1881 - it went to the Island somehow. Magnus Hanso ended up on the Island with his ship, as is noted on the blast door map "final resting place of Magnus Hanso/Black Rock", and so begins the Hanso legacy on the mysterious Island.

By the time Alvar is of age, the Island is already set up for whatever the "Hanso Initiative" is. Somehow, the original intent of the DHARMA Initiative corresponds with what I'm calling the "Hanso Initiative", and Alvar uses DHARMA to further his true cause.

But I keep coming back to a thought I've been having ever since I saw the Swan Orientation film - that of a DHARMA/Hanso split. Perhaps some of the scientists (like maybe Rousseau?) affiliated with DHARMA's original research/the Valenzetti Equation figured out that Hanso was duping them and took matters into their own hands.

After seeing the amazing transcripts of the whispers from the S2 finale, I'm really leaning towards 2 groups of "others" - the remnants of DHARMA, and the "Hanso Initiative".

Juliet was likely an original member of DHARMA turned to the "Hanso Initiative" through a romantic relationship with Ben, who is "Hanso Initiative" all the way.

Hanso is still sending them supplies too, so he's well aware of whats going on. Those who don't know - it was confirmed in the Alvar Hanso Orientation film that The Hanso Foundation would be making regular food/medical supply drops in perpetuity to the Island. Which they still do.

ETA - D.I.H.G. from the blast door map = Dharma Initiative, Hanso Group - goes nicely with this theory I think. Meaning that the DIHG is the part of DHARMA that is focusing on the "Hanso Initiative" in secret, but not to Radzinsky, or MAYBE Kelvin (the blast door map makers) - though I think Kelvin wasn't aware of the true purpose of the "Hanso Initiative", he was recruited by them - KELVIN: "But thank god, I joined the Dharma Initiative, Namaste".
And he wasnt stupid and when he saw the opportunity to hide the knowledge of Desmonds boat from them so he could plan an escape, he did. This is why Ben and crew didnt know about the boat.


I'm sure I'll expand on this more as I hear some comments. :)

Peace,
Truff

[truffula]

I think I wanna change the name of this thread and just outright say what I've thought ever since I posted my "There are Others, and then there are OTHERS" theory at the beginning of S2.

What is happening on the Island as far as the "others" are concerned is an all out WAR between the HANSO group and the remnants of DHARMA.
HANSO group, Ben's folks, are working in one method - deception to aid their ultimate goal.
DHARMA group, the whisperers, are trying to help the Losties defeat the HANSO group because they no longer can (for some reason). They are also the ones providing the "havids" to the Losties to help them along the way.
Locke is special for sure cause of his miraculous ability to walk/heal on the Island, they knew this right away, so thats why they chose him as the recipient of most of the "havids" so far - the discovery of 2 DHARMA hatches. I bet Locke's next quest will be to find "The Flame".

I believe the split occurred in 1985 - as referenced on the Blast Door Map: "From following AH/MDG incident of 1985". We don't know an "M" DeGroot, but you can bet your bottom dollar that "DG" stands for "DeGroot" and "AH" stands for "Alvar Hanso". (This is BEFORE Rousseau allegedly crashed and ended up on the Island, btw.)

More to come (if I ever get a reply :p)

Peace,
Truff

[littlelabrynth]

You've brought up some interesting points which really got me thinking. But could you please explain what you mean by "Hanso Initiative". Was the Hanso Initiative the reason that Hanso decided to try to change the Valenzettti Equation, thus Hanso agreeing to finance DHARMA?

[cricer]

I had a similar idea as this one, but I never had enough facts or opinions to create such a detailed post as your own. Well done Truff, and I agree with it 100%. Except that I think you should add that this is why they continue to call themselves the good guys. I think this part is greatly overlooked, perhaps the Hanso Initiative feel they are the good guys and they are trying to eliminate the leftover Dharma people.

[truffula]

You've brought up some interesting points which really got me thinking. But could you please explain what you mean by "Hanso Initiative". Was the Hanso Initiative the reason that Hanso decided to try to change the Valenzettti Equation, thus Hanso agreeing to finance DHARMA?
Let me first attempt to clarify what I mean by "Hanso Initiative".
The "Hanso Initiative" as I'm calling it, is the true purpose of the work being done on the Island.
Let me try a little timeline, that might help too :)

1881 - The Black Rock disappears, eventually appearing on the Island with Magnus Hanso on it. Thus begins the legacy of the Hanso family on the Island. I don't think Magnus was alone when he showed up on the Island, either other shipmates/slaves or original Island inhabitants helped populate the Island and study its unique qualities. Somewhere in the bloodline, they figured out how to get back and forth from the Island (however that is) - the Hanso family secret, passed down through the generations to his great grandson, Alvar. Now since I can't speculate on what I think the ultimate goal of the Hanso's on the Island is, its difficult for me to expand further on this at this time. But I'm sure I'll get to it eventually ;)

1962 - the Valenzetti Equation was commissioned by the UN security council with the help of Alvar Hanso.

1970 - The DHARMA Initiative was founded by Gerald and Karen DeGroot

Now the question is, why did Alvar sit on the Valenzetti Equation for 8 years before DHARMA was founded? Because he wanted to. He needed a scapegoat to use it on the Island. Alvar knew the Valenzetti Equation couldn't be changed, he was sending those foolish DHARMA scientists on a wild goose chase. Thats why the foundation didn't care when Rousseau changed the transmission, thats why Sam and Lenny were able to hear the Numbers on what was supposed to be a frequency and encryption known "only to us".
So they form DHARMA and set up shop on the Island, shortly after, there was an "incident" as we all know. Hanso recruited who they could to their side, or should I say "changed some of the DHARMA members perspective" and squashed the rest of the first incarnation of DHARMA on the Island (the changing of the Valenzetti Equation). It is possible that some of these original DHARMA scientists escaped (Adam and Eve - and yes I'm taking into account how long Jack said he thought they were there, I just think Jack is wrong :p).

1980 - The Swan and Pearl Orientation films (at least) are released and the second version of DHARMA is born.

1985 - Incident between AH (likely Alvar Hanso) and MDG (M. DeGroot?).
I think this could be M.DeGroot, son/daughter of Gerald and Karen finding out what REALLY happened to his/her parents and revolting against the Hanso Initiative. This also could be when Alvar decided to show some of his strength and did something to them to make them incapable of doing any more damage - they are now the WHIPSERERS and Dream-Givers, trying to help the Losties in any way they can.


I'll probably add more later :)

Peace,
Truff

[cricer]

Oh sure, I wait a day for a reply and you can't even mention my post!

Just teasing Truff ;)

[littlelabrynth]

Thanks, truff. I was a little confused by what you meant by "Hanso Initiative" at first. I actually started writing a reply a few days ago trying to lay out a timeline, but it soon turned into a big, long four page theory about what I thought. I agree with your timeline and I am intrigued about exactly what Alvar Hanso's true intentions are. The theory I came up with goes in a different direction, but you might find some of the facts helpful. Maybe not. I will post it shortly.

Good job, and I look forward to more.

[yung23]

After seeing the amazing transcripts of the whispers from the S2 finale


?
link ?

please ?

:)

[littlelabrynth]

After seeing the amazing transcripts of the whispers from the S2 finale


?
link ?

please ?

:)

Here's the link (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=997841&postcount=368)
:Cheers:

[DCRHMC]

DHARMA was born from the need to manipulate the Valenzetti Equation and save the human race. We know this, not from the show, but the summer experience. There is no reason to think this isn't legit and connected so we operate as if it were factual. DHARMA was created by the Hanso foundation and the DeGroots were part of it.

The end of the "Experience" video clip shows the twisted Dr. Mettlewerk (sp) realizing the numbers can not be maniputaled by the scientific work of DHARMA (total failure of all their work), so he resorts to plan B - eliminate 30% of the worlds population to manipulate the numbers. His plan is to spread a virus by disguising it like an antidote to an already existing virus.

I agree there are 2 groups (3 if you include the plane crash survivors). Group 1 is Benrys clan, but who is group 2?

I don't see A. Hanso funding the DHARMA initiative and supporting a counter group on the same island. Maybe I didn't fully understand your post (I do like it).

Truffula: what do you think went wrong on the island to have created the situation the losties find themselves part of ?

[truffula]

I don't see A. Hanso funding the DHARMA initiative and supporting a counter group on the same island

I believe Hanso used the funding for DHARMA and the misconception that the Valenzetti Equation could be changed to get the greatest minds in the world on his Island for his twisted plan (The "Hanso Initiative", whatever it might be). Obvioulsy he wasn't dealing with idiots and shortly after DHARMA came to the Island, there was an "incident" which I believe was the original split between Hanso and the original DHARMA scientists.

Truffula: what do you think went wrong on the island to have created the situation the losties find themselves part of ?
I don't think anything went wrong. Everything is going as Ben's group of Others wants it to go (or so they think). I think they knew that eventually a plane was going to crash on the Island that would give them alot of new test subjects, and now they think they're manipulating the situation perfectly. However, I don't know how aware they are of the "OTHER" Others, the WHISPERERS and DREAM GIVERS, and their attempts to help the Losties.
Just last night we learn the Hatch imploded. There's no way those 3 would've survived that. They were helped.....from "beyond"....
*cue Twilight Zone music*

I would go off more now, but I'm still trying to wrap my brain around what we saw last night ;)

Peace,
Truff

[DCRHMC]

Good food for thought. The only part you mention here that I can't seem to agree with - and other posters have mentioned it hundreds of times - is the part about the plane crash being planned or orchestrated.

Would you rely on getting people to your island by crashing their plane? I believe the survival rate for commercial plane crashes is almost zero. I stand behind the plane crash being a true accident.

That being said, I always look forward to reading your insight and some of your opinions are really good.

[truffula]

Would you rely on getting people to your island by crashing their plane? I believe the survival rate for commercial plane crashes is almost zero. I stand behind the plane crash being a true accident.
I also believe the plane crash was an accident.
They didn't cause it, they just knew that at some point, it was gonna happen. Where I think it got blurry for them is how far they could Remotely View at that time.
It seems like they're looking for a "chosen one" almost, one who carries the answer or something like that. The blur that I refer to would be that they also knew that eventually they would get help in advancement of their studies from an unlikely source (like plane crash survivors) thus Ben's reaction when seeing it "Ethan, find the Fuselage, there had to have been survivors, and you're one of them". I attribute Ben's assumption that there would be survivors in such an unlikely situation to his potential knowledge of the Islands unique healing abilities, combined with their current ablilities to remote view.

ETA - and thanks for the compliment! :)

[DCRHMC]

Are you thinking along the lines of the Matrix with the possibility of a prophecy and/or chosen one?

[Black Stallion]

I want to read more. I have been thinking along these lines for a while now. I didn't get into the webmaze stuff very much but I'd read about it. I've also thought somethings else had to happen after 1985 cause Danielle was able to change the transmission in 1988 16 years ago (which I believe was aimed at the Hanso people). But now she said "they" controll it. So, the takeover of the island has been a progression????

I love it Truff. Keep it up.

And what does this mean now that Alvar is Back. How will that effect the island now? Will he attempt to come back there? Is Penny working for him?

[Charlie's Opium Den]

Hey. Thanks LittleLabrynth for directing me here from your other thread. This is quite interesting.

What I wanted to add was my opinion on the whispers. There has been some speculation here that they were somehow created by dharma/hanso, like by something they did. Like possibly they are the disembodied spirits of the original islanders (the statue builders). I disagree with this however. I think that they are a part of the island itself and everything that makes the island the unique place it is. First off just because i think that with all the talk by the directors about the island being a character in and of itself, and just everything we have learned, this seems more feasible. Kind of in the same vein as the islands healing ability e.g. Locke and Rose and (maybe) Jin's reproductive abilities.

The other possible catalyst for the whispers, (and possibly the healing) could be the valenzetti equation or something tangentially related to it.

I just think this makes alot more sense and just fits in with the whole Occum's Razor thing about the most likely scenario usually being true (not that an island having psychic whispers and healing ability is a 'most likely scenario' but you guys know what i mean lol). I should mention that i havent heard the transcripts of the whispers from the end of season two(thats the ones that were mentioned as being really revealing by one of teh people on this thread, right?)


Anyway, i also wanted to add something else that i was thinking of starting a thread about, but i thought i would test it out here first.

-Anyway, i was thinking about the virus, and that stuff about disguising it as a vaccination or something like that? I forgot exactly how it was put. But i was thinking- who is the only person who was taken long term injections of the Dharma 'Vaccination'? and who just developed the ability of precognition (or something similar) in the last episode? Granted he has been taking the vaccination for awhile, but maybe it takes awhile for it to begin changing the person, or maybe it is only with contact with something, or there was something in the hatch that was preventing the onset of symptoms, or maybe Kelvin was doing something to coutneract the vaccination/virus- he did die about forty-60 days ago, however long ago the plance crashed, and that is about the time when the virus was supposed to start. that all there is pretty convoluted though, and plus it doesnt explain why roussoue's team would get sick.
but yeah, basically what i was thinking is that desmonds precognition of locke's speech is remarkably similar to the psychic's (possible) precognition of the plane's wreck, and also possibly the dangers around claire's baby.
So- does desmond now have the virus? and did the psychic possibly have it as well? i could totally see danielle's actions- killing her partners, including her husband, stemming from the stress brought on by the precognition and strange behavior after her team got sick. and maybe the psychic somehow has also got the disease, but yeah, who knows. i doubt i will start a new thread with this because its not a coherent enough theory. but i think it is interesting to think about and shows how much of a catalyst for discussion and theorizing desmond's recent actions are.

anyway, great job on the thread, keep up the good work.

[truffula]

:bump: :bump: :bump: :bump:
BUMPITY BUMP.

I am gonna start to brainstorm shortly, and I'll have a good deal to add to this thread later (maybe I'll even start a new one if I end up goin off too much :p).

[island_maverick]

I also believe the plane crash was an accident.
They didn't cause it, they just knew that at some point, it was gonna happen.I missed this the first time round, so just adding a nod of agreement to that statement now, truff. :)

[soup]

A couple of thoughts in regards to your theory, Truffula.

1) Many of us are assuming that Dharma was a lgitimate attempt to conduct research. If Hanso funded Dharma, is it not possible there were ulterior motives? Let's select the finest scientific minds, screen them for their analytical skills and ability to handle extreme situations, then send them to an island where they are going to face the unexpected battle of their lives. Weed out the truly week.

2) Dharma was an attempt to provide an infusion into the collective, the "hostiles." This did not provide the results Hanso desired, so they created a new strategem- a plane crash. Stock the plane with doctors, criminals, soldiers, etc. Some are on Jacob's list, some were not, and are expendable. Walt was an unforseen bonus.

Danielle's expedition may have been another unexpected event, yielding Alex, who has shown tremendous aptitude for survival skills and the like.

Henry's baloon was another unforseen event, and he did not cut the mustard.

I think Hanso has been trying to supply fresh DNA to the environment, trying to build a society that will one day be strong enough to overcome any obstacle and possible step up an evolutionary rung.

[Erratic Assassin]

ETA - D.I.H.G. from the blast door map = Dharma Initiative, Hanso Group - goes nicely with this theory I think. Meaning that the DIHG is the part of DHARMA that is focusing on the "Hanso Initiative" in secret, but not to Radzinsky, or MAYBE Kelvin (the blast door map makers)

Was the blast door map painted before or after they were quarantined? They couldn't have made the map without leaving the Swan station.

Why was the blast door map painted in black light paint? Who were they hiding the map from?

[truffula]

A couple of thoughts in regards to your theory, Truffula.

1) Many of us are assuming that Dharma was a lgitimate attempt to conduct research. If Hanso funded Dharma, is it not possible there were ulterior motives? Let's select the finest scientific minds, screen them for their analytical skills and ability to handle extreme situations, then send them to an island where they are going to face the unexpected battle of their lives. Weed out the truly week.

2) Dharma was an attempt to provide an infusion into the collective, the "hostiles." This did not provide the results Hanso desired, so they created a new strategem- a plane crash. Stock the plane with doctors, criminals, soldiers, etc. Some are on Jacob's list, some were not, and are expendable. Walt was an unforseen bonus.

Danielle's expedition may have been another unexpected event, yielding Alex, who has shown tremendous aptitude for survival skills and the like.

Henry's baloon was another unforseen event, and he did not cut the mustard.

I think Hanso has been trying to supply fresh DNA to the environment, trying to build a society that will one day be strong enough to overcome any obstacle and possible step up an evolutionary rung.
Your #1 - BINGO. :D

Your #2 - I don't quite agree with. And here is why.
I believe DHARMA was a long con. But it backfired.
DHARMA thought they were saving the world, changing a factor in the Valenzetti Equation (the Numbers). But what they didn't know, is that the universe has a way of course correcting, and the predicted "end of humanity" as revealed by the Valenzetti Equation cannot be changed. Therefore DHARMA's work was pointless from the getgo, and Hanso knew it. However, little do they know, Hanso has been using their research to further his own goals (whatever they may be). I mean, if Hanso cared so much about DHARMA, don't you think he would've come running when the radio tower (broadcast in a frequency and encryption that only Hanso knows) changed to a crazy French woman leaving a distress call instead of the Numbers?

Danielle was recruited just like most of them. Her team was recruited by DHARMA (or whoever, Mittelos, etc), but they did something to her, brainwashing maybe? There is NO SICKNESS. They did something to her and fed her the line about the "sickness", then she did them a favor and killed her crew, so they took the opportunity and took her baby, then kicked her out for good.

Was the blast door map painted before or after they were quarantined? They couldn't have made the map without leaving the Swan station.

Why was the blast door map painted in black light paint? Who were they hiding the map from?
The blast door map was painted during both times. But possibly by different people. Note the many styles of handwriting on it.
They definitely were making notations on the map as they were exploring. The one notation about "travel time not compatible with 108" made that seem so.
Also, the additional notations/code seen on the backs of the LOST jigsaw puzzles state that "quarantine was a hoax" and "there is no sickness".

I imagine they were hiding the map in case of "hostile" takeover.
Marvin Candle/Mark Wickman is the worst offender.
His little "new" DHARMA films are so manipulatory it's insane.
Push the Button. Do not attempt to contact the outside world. You must observe and write down everything you see and feed it into these tubes (that go nowhere). If there has been an incursion on this station by the hostiles, Enter 77.

In an interview with Damon and Carlton....well, I should tag this part....
Damon said that there is a good chance we might see Marvin Candle again before the season is over, and NOT in a DHARMA film!!

[they see ALL]

hmmm...

it was my view that, this season, we would find out that the others (ben's others) really are the good guys...

so, in my view, i guess they would be against hanso (who might have funded dharma in order to control the world / force world peace / evil new world order or something)...

hanso does have military in his background after all...

so, yes, ben would be against hanso in my theory...


;)

[they see ALL]

if the whispers are the good guys, then why do they have the tendency to negatively affect the losties???

for example, the whispers were responsible for ana lucia's confusion / maybe even her frightfulness which caused her to shoot shannon...

the whispters also caused jack / kate / sawyer / hurley to become confused in the season two finale...

they might have had a fighting chance if the whispers never came...

are there any other examples of this???

i always thought that the others used the whispers to disorientate people and etc (as if it was a weapon)...

maybe the whispers are the good guys though (and they just show up at the wrong time)...


;)

[truffula]

I am rewatching the Hanso Orientation film, and this one quote just JUMPED out at me:

By now, you also know that there are many research goals for our joint venture

DeGroots = DHARMA

Hanso = Others

[truffula]

MAJOR BUMP. :D

Hanso has been doing something ELSE on the Island.
DHARMA was a ruse. A fake. THEY were the experiments. Why else allow them to build all their hatches and village.

And it sure as hell looks like "Jacob", the Magnificent Man, could very well be ALVAR HANSO himself!!

I'll have lots more when I can gather my thoughts. ;)

[truffula]

I believe DHARMA was a long con. But it backfired.
DHARMA thought they were saving the world, changing a factor in the Valenzetti Equation (the Numbers). But what they didn't know, is that the universe has a way of course correcting, and the predicted "end of humanity" as revealed by the Valenzetti Equation cannot be changed. Therefore DHARMA's work was pointless from the getgo, and Hanso knew it. However, little do they know, Hanso has been using their research to further his own goals (whatever they may be). I mean, if Hanso cared so much about DHARMA, don't you think he would've come running when the radio tower (broadcast in a frequency and encryption that only Hanso knows) changed to a crazy French woman leaving a distress call instead of the Numbers?
:yeah:
They saw Ben as an opportunity to really USE the DHARMA Initiative when the found him as a little kid. All that time growing up, they allowed DHARMA to keep on plowing away at trying to change a value of an equation that CANNOT be changed.

My head is spinning here....I will add more....

[DCRHMC]

Could the hostiles be a splinter of the original DHARMA initiative? As I recall in TLE, there was a home video clip of (sorry I forget the names) a girl eavesdropping on a speech about the failure of DHARMA to change any of the numbers. The last resort was to kill a third of the worlds population. I recall she was discovered and atempted to flee. Regardless, could the Hostiles be this splinter faction??

Like you, I have a million thoughts going around and need some time to compose them all.

[shoop_puveler]

Some great ideas in this thread, starting with Truff's OP, so I'm bumping. :D

Unfortunately, I can't back Hanso not completely backing DHARMA.
I think Ben's coup (the Hostiles overthrowing DHARMA) was the work of Thomas Mittelwerk, who was running all the Hanso Group organizations in Alvar Hanso's name while he held him hostage. Who recruited Juliet? Ethan and Richard; under the auspices of Mittelos Bioscience.

I think the 'M' in 'AH/MDG' from the blast door map is for Mittelwerk, Thomas W.. (I totally agree with the OP on 'AH=Alvar Hanso' and 'DG=DeGroot'.) In context, I think the 1985 incident refers to the Purge; Ben's coup.

Also, I'm not sure I can commit to the idea that D.I.H.G. stands for Dharma Initiative Hanso Group. On the BDM it is written next to things like "Purpose of Station", "Restocking and Staging Area for..." and "Hub of D.I.H.G. Road System". It would seem pointless to acknowledge the financier on a secret map of the hatches. As it appears mainly on the top of the map, nearest The Staff and The Arrow, I think it stands for a particular experiment; specific research - IMO dealing with the pregnancy problem. D.I.H.G. - Development and Investigation of Human Growth.

Lastly - from the BDM (upper left side) near the Staff it is written, "Believed to have divested from project in 1985 following AH/MDG incident - but could be #6". I think this is referring to material from Mittelwerk's recorded lecture where he speaks of using a vaccine, that is actually a virus, on some villages. I believe this "vaccine" made it's way to the island and was used at the onslaught of his corruption of Hanso - this is what Rousseau calls the "sickness" and why no one is falling ill. Kelvin knew about it as he painted it on the door, but didn't know the full story as to why people were getting sick; they were being infected.

[truffula]

:bump:

Seeing Ben in the FF, and his "List" and Elsa's boss "The Economist" (who Ben wants dead and vice versa) has got me all over this thread.
I have two other threads here that deal with (kind of) the same subject nature -

Why the Widmore Coverup? (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45153)

The Off Island War (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45642)

Now what I've gone and done is quoted all my posts so far in this thread and I will now pick apart what was wrong and make "Course Corrections". ;)

"My name is Benjamin Linus, and I've lived on this Island all my life". Well then, this predates DHARMA for sure.
And that means only one thing - DHARMA was just a side project in the Hanso family's true objective (whatever that may be).

Well, now we know he was lying about that. So it would seem that if I were to use that as the premise of this theory, I'd be dead in the water now. But there is more depth to it.....read on....

Lets look at the facts.
Magnus Hanso was the captain of the Black Rock. It disappeared in 1881 - it went to the Island somehow. Magnus Hanso ended up on the Island with his ship, as is noted on the blast door map "final resting place of Magnus Hanso/Black Rock", and so begins the Hanso legacy on the mysterious Island.
This fact still remains. Magnus was there first. BEFORE DHARMA.
We now know that CHARLES WIDMORE has Magnus' diary from the Black Rock, which he used to help in the coverup of the crash of Flight 815.
But I keep coming back to a thought I've been having ever since I saw the Swan Orientation film - that of a DHARMA/Hanso split. Perhaps some of the scientists (like maybe Rousseau?) affiliated with DHARMA's original research/the Valenzetti Equation figured out that Hanso was duping them and took matters into their own hands.
If the Dharma folks figured out they were duped, they would be pissed, right?
Unless they had "served their purpose" as far as Ben and the Hanso Initiative were concerned, so they were eliminated.
Where did the order for the Purge come from? Was it Alvar? Playing "what if it was" supports this theory nicely, so that's what I'll go with. :)

Juliet was likely an original member of DHARMA turned to the "Hanso Initiative" through a romantic relationship with Ben, who is "Hanso Initiative" all the way.
:rotfl: holy crap was I WRONG about this one!!! HAHAHA!!! :rotfl:

What is happening on the Island as far as the "others" are concerned is an all out WAR between the HANSO group and the remnants of DHARMA.
Close but no cigar. Its an all out WAR between the HANSO group and WIDMORE Industries. Both heads have many tentacles - Paik Heavy, Maxwell Group, etc.

I believe the split occurred in 1985 - as referenced on the Blast Door Map: "From following AH/MDG incident of 1985". We don't know an "M" DeGroot, but you can bet your bottom dollar that "DG" stands for "DeGroot" and "AH" stands for "Alvar Hanso".
This I still believe.

Let me first attempt to clarify what I mean by "Hanso Initiative".
The "Hanso Initiative" as I'm calling it, is the true purpose of the work being done on the Island.
Let me try a little timeline, that might help too :)

1881 - The Black Rock disappears, eventually appearing on the Island with Magnus Hanso on it.

1962 - the Valenzetti Equation was commissioned by the UN security council with the help of Alvar Hanso.

1970 - The DHARMA Initiative was founded by Gerald and Karen DeGroot

Now the question is, why did Alvar sit on the Valenzetti Equation for 8 years before DHARMA was founded? Because he wanted to. He needed a scapegoat to use it on the Island. Alvar knew the Valenzetti Equation couldn't be changed, he was sending those foolish DHARMA scientists on a wild goose chase. Thats why the foundation didn't care when Rousseau changed the transmission, thats why Sam and Lenny were able to hear the Numbers on what was supposed to be a frequency and encryption known "only to us".
So they form DHARMA and set up shop on the Island, shortly after, there was an "incident" as we all know.
Okay, so the HANSO INITIATIVE is still alive and well in my mind.
I think the tough part now is gonna be figurin out who is on which side....
Note the underlined and bolded part in there. That's a big key to Hanso's motivations IMO.
But we still have no idea what this "incident" was, and why it made "new protocol" for the Swan station.....but I'd bet dollars to donuts that its gonna have somethin to do with this whole 31 Minutes thing.....

I also believe the plane crash was an accident.
They didn't cause it, they just knew that at some point, it was gonna happen. Where I think it got blurry for them is how far they could Remotely View at that time.
So the rocket was 31 minutes off - if that is one factor, I wonder how long, if in the right spot, doing the right "thing", one could remotely view from the Island? Long enough to know that plane was coming that's for sure.

It seems like they're looking for a "chosen one" almost, one who carries the answer or something like that. The blur that I refer to would be that they also knew that eventually they would get help in advancement of their studies from an unlikely source (like plane crash survivors) thus Ben's reaction when seeing it "Ethan, find the Fuselage, there had to have been survivors, and you're one of them". I attribute Ben's assumption that there would be survivors in such an unlikely situation to his potential knowledge of the Islands unique healing abilities, combined with their current ablilities to remote view.
Yep. They're lookin for someone alright - from the S3 DVDs - the Easter Egg of the entire "brainwashing Room 23 vid", the last frame -

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/betheawakenedone.jpg

I believe DHARMA was a long con. But it backfired.
DHARMA thought they were saving the world, changing a factor in the Valenzetti Equation (the Numbers). But what they didn't know, is that the universe has a way of course correcting, and the predicted "end of humanity" as revealed by the Valenzetti Equation cannot be changed. Therefore DHARMA's work was pointless from the getgo, and Hanso knew it. However, little do they know, Hanso has been using their research to further his own goals (whatever they may be). I mean, if Hanso cared so much about DHARMA, don't you think he would've come running when the radio tower (broadcast in a frequency and encryption that only Hanso knows) changed to a crazy French woman leaving a distress call instead of the Numbers?
This all still works too. :)

Now lets factor in the new elements we know:
- Widmore covered up the crash of Flight 815
- Ben is alive in the FFs
- Matthew Abaddon - who is he working for?
- The "deal" of the Oceanic 6 - who made it? what was it?
- The true intentions of the Frieghties team - whatever it is, its not just Ben....

It all boils down to Hanso vs Widmore.

Lets start with Elsa's Boss, "The Economist".
This is NOT Charles Widmore. Someone we haven't met yet - likely this "R.C." person if I had to fathom a guess. But whoever he is, he works for Widmore.

We do not know where Charles Widmore is in these FFs. I hope they show us. :hyper:

But its apparent that Widmore (both of them) know about the Island, only I think Charles knows a little more than Penny. ;)

I need to organize more on this, but slowly the pieces will connect and the BIG PICTURE is gonna reveal itself.... :hyper:

Discuss on. :)