the havid and the flashback

[Susan B Anthony]

This has been addressed in a couple of other threads, but I thought it might be good to bring the discussion together in one thread.

Thoughts on the flashback.....WTF???????

First, the self-induced havid was a new turn. I know Locke basically orchestrated Boone's dreamquest in "Hearts and Minds," but Locke's own visions have all been involuntary. I'll buy Locke being familiar with mysticism based on everything we have seen so far, beginning back in "Walkabout" with his description to Randy of the walkabout. But up to now, I haven't seen incidents of Locke going after a havid. If it was as simple as hot rocks and mushrooms, why didn't he do it about halfway through S2 when he felt abandoned by the Island and adrift? Why didn't he do it after Boone's death? Why didn't he do it after Fenry got him all in a quandry about the button?

One explanation is certainly hatch as kryptonite. The hatch sucked the life out of him so much that it never occurred to him to dial up the Island to ask for instructions.

So on to the flashback itself. Am I the only one who couldn't wrap my head around Locke as a bank-robbing hippie? I can sort of buy him joining the commune after losing Helen and being suckered by his dad once again. It would fit with the sort of over-reacting, all-or-nothing Locke that I have come to know. But bank robbing? The flashback indicated that he knew about it and was in on it. I just can't see that. I could envision him being at the commune and not realizing they were into bad things. That seems more like the Locke I know - - having a huge blind spot when it comes to people's true character (Fenry) because he is forever looking for someone to belong to. But I think Locke has a moral compass, and while he will justify breaking rules in a particular situation, I can't see him getting to a lifestyle of stealing to live.

I have only watched this once, so I'll take another look and see if it looks any different the second time through.

[AceOfDiamonds]

One explanation is certainly hatch as kryptonite. The hatch sucked the life out of him so much that it never occurred to him to dial up the Island to ask for instructions.

This explanation actually makes sense, in my opinion, because Locke misidentified his "true purpose" as involving the inputting of mere numbers into a hatch. The island -- if it actually exists as its own entity and if it is responsible for guiding Locke to the hatch as it seemed to in Season One -- may or may not have actually wanted Locke to input the numbers (maybe it was all part of the master plan; maybe in order to ultimately succeed, for a short while Locke needed to appear to be failing.)

But whatever the case may be -- and whether there's a mystical force at work or whether Locke is totally getting high on drugs -- the bottom line is Locke's destiny in Season Two was simply explained as "input the numbers every couple hours." There's no time to indulge in havids if you're on that kind of timeline. Locke's faith in the island as investing into his skills as a hunter -- giving him life, the adventure and the action and the prominence he so desperately desired -- were challenged by the island's "new role for him" in Season Two. So Locke became bitter, angry and lashed out against the "island" -- ultimately betraying his faith in "?" and destroying the hatch in the Season Finale. It took being proven wrong for Locke to realize he needed to reconnect with the island.

So on to the flashback itself. Am I the only one who couldn't wrap my head around Locke as a bank-robbing hippie? I can sort of buy him joining the commune after losing Helen and being suckered by his dad once again. It would fit with the sort of over-reacting, all-or-nothing Locke that I have come to know. But bank robbing?

You see, for one reason or another I thought Locke was actually joking when he said to the kid that he had "robbed a bank." Maybe I missed a clue or something, but it never seemed that Locke was actually capable of that kind of action in the flashbacks. If he couldn't shoot the officer, I have a hard time believing he'd be enough of a "farmer" to hold up a bank.

[Island Hobo]

I think he was referring to getting the money that didn't belong to him out of the bank in his last flashback, his dad had the key but that didn't make it his money. Though I was also hugely disappointed with the flashbacks, if Locke would have killed that guy and saved the day then it would have been alright but the flashbacks just sorta ran around in circles and never had any real significant moment.

[Susan B Anthony]

You're right, the bank-robbing comment was Locke's joke. I guess bank-robbing got stuck in my head. But even if all they were engaged in was the cash crop in the greenhouse, I don't see Locke as a pot-farmer for profit either. If it was just for "personal use" for "the family," I can totally see him looking the other way. But dealing? The folks were obviously clearing away paperwork from the greenhouse, so there were some sorts of transactions they didn't want Officer Eddie to get his hands on. Something serious enough that Locke at least considered capping the kid.

Still not seeing it. Locke is no drug dealer. Even something as comparatively innocuous as pot.

[sgtdraino]

You're right, the bank-robbing comment was Locke's joke. I guess bank-robbing got stuck in my head. But even if all they were engaged in was the cash crop in the greenhouse, I don't see Locke as a pot-farmer for profit either. If it was just for "personal use" for "the family," I can totally see him looking the other way. But dealing? The folks were obviously clearing away paperwork from the greenhouse, so there were some sorts of transactions they didn't want Officer Eddie to get his hands on. Something serious enough that Locke at least considered capping the kid.

Still not seeing it. Locke is no drug dealer. Even something as comparatively innocuous as pot.

I think you hit the nail on the head with "looking the other way." Locke hung out with those commune people because they gave him some familial warmth. Yes, I think he was aware that the pot-stuff was going on, but I think he simply tried to ignore it as best he could. I'm actually very glad that Locke did not pull that trigger. It seems like so many of our 815s are turning out to be killers or murderers, and I've never believed Locke to be of that ilk. I think he could kill if he had to, but I don't think he's a murderer. And if he'd shot that cop, that's exactly what he'd be.

[AceOfDiamonds]

Still not seeing it. Locke is no drug dealer. Even something as comparatively innocuous as pot.

I dunno. I mean, Locke obviously strongly opposes drugs that are actually capable of serious harm. Like, for example, cocaine and heroin. Locke definitely has come out strongly against Charlie's drug usage, but what Charlie was dealing with was strong, potent, addictive and serious. As in, people actually die or mess up the rest of their lives on that stuff. Of course Locke's moral impulses will be overprotective of such drug abuse.

But then we have, for example, marajauna, which is comparatively harmless and recreational in its usage, and arguably not terribly addictive. And we also have another example in drug usage -- Charlie himself called Locke out on it -- with Locke's infamous island-paste. That stuff is definitely a drug. Addictive? Obviously not. Fatal? It doesn't appear to be.

So Locke seems to be less of an absolutionist when it comes to the morality of drug-dealing. My opinion is that Locke tolerates certain drugs -- the ones that aren't addictive and pose relatively low risk of fatality. He's a relativist; he sees some drugs as godawful (like Charlie's) and to be avoided at all costs, but others -- espesically ones like the paste, which he sincerely believes helps those who take it, are acceptable and even encouraged.

[rm4610]

But even if all they were engaged in was the cash crop in the greenhouse, I don't see Locke as a pot-farmer for profit either. If it was just for "personal use" for "the family," I can totally see him looking the other way. But dealing? The folks were obviously clearing away paperwork from the greenhouse, so there were some sorts of transactions they didn't want Officer Eddie to get his hands on. Something serious enough that Locke at least considered capping the kid.

Still not seeing it. Locke is no drug dealer. Even something as comparatively innocuous as pot.
I completely agree, and this is one of the things that bothered me about the flashback. How would he have gotten involved in that. Recreational, sure. I could see him seeking out a commune of sorts to feel acceptance, but not one that was involved in what was portrayed to be a rather large endeavor. Will this give Eko and Locke something to chat about later? Both were involved in drug running? I really hope we don't go down that path. Even after rewatching the episode last night, I don't see it. He was fully aware of what they were doing. His surprise at the end when they were packing up was that they were leaving, not at what they were doing.

He's a relativist; he sees some drugs as godawful (like Charlie's) and to be avoided at all costs, but others -- espesically ones like the paste, which he sincerely believes helps those who take it, are acceptable and even encouraged.
Probably the only Charlie line that I enjoyed during the episode was when Charlie made the comment about "what about the zero tolerance policy". You're right, Locke probably sees that more in a medicinal or spiritual nature than as a drug.

[Hodgepodge]

...First, the self-induced havid was a new turn. I know Locke basically orchestrated Boone's dreamquest in "Hearts and Minds," but Locke's own visions have all been involuntary. I'll buy Locke being familiar with mysticism based on everything we have seen so far, beginning back in "Walkabout" with his description to Randy of the walkabout. But up to now, I haven't seen incidents of Locke going after a havid...SBA, to my mind, Further Instructions verifies Locke's island havids weren't his firsts. I brought this up in another thread, but the scene of the sweat lodge both pre-crash and post-crash speaks volumes.

Remember in that same Walkabout episode, his last comments to the travel agent? "This is destiny. This is destiny. This is my destiny. (yelling) I'm supposed to do this, dammit. Don't tell me what I can't do. Don't tell me what I can't. . ." I believe he saw himself out of that wheelchair on this walkabout he booked.


...If it was as simple as hot rocks and mushrooms, why didn't he do it about halfway through S2 when he felt abandoned by the Island and adrift? Why didn't he do it after Boone's death? Why didn't he do it after Fenry got him all in a quandry about the button?...I believe Locke's subconscious is somehow easily tapped into. Is there a psychological term for this? But he was found easily manipulated by the island, by "Smokey", or the "Others".

I've mentioned it several times, Locke's agenda changed while searching for Charlie and Claire in All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues. We now know, these havids don't come with a GPS. We've seen him grapple with their meaning. Is it to hard to imagine him getting one of these havids, coming across something in the search for Charlie and Claire, and going off on another journey? "Don't you feel it?", was what he asked Boone as they stumbled onto the hatch.

And the idea of him looking the other way in regards to the commune and the pot. You said it SBA! He's so enamored with the idea of family, he's willing to look the other way when it comes to breaking the law. But, from what we were shown, he couldn't cross that line to murder.

[athywithak]

He's so enamored with the idea of family, he's willing to look the other way when it comes to breaking the law. But, from what we were shown, he could cross that line to murder.


I liked the way the Island (as Boone) threw in "bring the family back together" to really get Locke going on the rescue.

I thought we were shown he couldn't murder. But I guess we don't know for sure if he shot that cop or not, but I thought not.

I could see Locke getting angry enough to kill, but not doing it in cold blood. But so far we have a whole bunch of killers in out 815s, so who knows?

Kw/K