light and dark...cave and beach?

[Zambini Stardust]

Interesting how this 'one side light, one side dark' thing keeps coming up. It started of course with Locke's description of backgammon to Walt. Then Jack found the black and white stones. Now the survivors have split into two camps. Is one camp 'light' and one camp 'dark'? As has been discussed at length elsewhere on this board, every main character has experienced some sort of loss or conflict prior to the crash and even since the crash. But some people are dealing with their internal demons better than others. Does it seem to you that the more confrontational ones stayed at the beach, while the less confrontational ones moved inland?

Let's look at those camps (forgive me if I miss someone, but these main characters make my point)...

Cave: Jack, Locke, Charlie, Hurley (and I presume Claire although I didn't see her).
Beach: Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Shannon, Boone, Michael, Sun and Jin.

Cave: Jack has tried to be the uniter since day one, even when he didn't want to be the leader, and he appears to have made great progress dealing with his White Rabbit. Locke is clearly the most well-adjusted and least confrontational survivor. Charlie is the comic relief; even though he's a dope-head, he always makes jokes and never challenges anyone. Hurley is just a big old huggable teddy-bear. And Charlie and Hurley are the ones who take special care of Claire. Now if I'm right and Claire rounds out the group, she fits perfectly because she is the one consistently nice female.

Beach: Kate is still struggling with her demon, whatever it is; she butts heads with Sawyer all the time. Sayid appeared to be a good guy initially, but notice he also butts heads with Sawyer (even physically) and he got way wigged out at Jin after the Michael incident; Sayid was the one who slapped the cuffs and left him to fry in the sun. Michael is battling what he perceives as Walt's mom's negative influence on Walt, and struggling to bridge the gap with his son. Sun and Jin - well if Rising Sun didn't expose their conflict and even that really bad temper, then you weren't watching. Shannon and Boone - nuff said about them.

So at the cave, we have people who really try to get along and work together. At the beach, we have Sawyer vs Sayid, Sayid vs Jin (or Sun, I can't remember which is husband and which is wife but I guess the wife would be Sun since she was the one who was 'rising'), Sun vs Jin, Michael vs Walt and his mom, Michael vs Jin, Kate vs Sawyer, Shannon vs Boone, Shannon vs the world, Boone vs the world. It seems like a group of head-butters compared to the cave-people.

We know from previews of next episode that the two camps are not permanently separated, but will that separation play a role in the future, and will it be light vs dark, good vs evil, cave vs beach?

And by the way, how stupid was it for them to split into two camps anyway?

[cinderellabop]

Actually, Sun and Jin went to the caves. It is presumed that Claire remained on the beach for the time being, because she had just collapsed the day before and needed to recover her strength before taking a hike into the jungle. But overall, your idea doesn't seem that far off the mark.

[Baron X]

Sun and Jin are in the cave group.

Well it would explain why he said light and dark vs black and white.

They split because the beach group is under the impression that a very low flying plane will be out in the middle of nowhere apparently at night because they won't see the giant chunks of commercial aircraft on the beach but they will see the fire. I hope the beach people don't expect the cave people to bring them water for free. Hmmmmm perhaps it will start the beginning of trade between the two camps: Fresh unboiled parasite filled water for Fish.

[Zambini Stardust]

Hmmm...that weakens me theory a bit. We shall see if the two camps re-unite, or establish some sort of permanent separation, or inter-mingle. I think this whole situation is a great vehicle for more conflict and character development.

So, who's taking care of Claire now? Her two protectors AND the doctor abandoned her?

[Hooster]

well, I don't really think it was too stupid that they split into the 2 camps like they did.

What I find kinda weird/dumb/ironic is the fact that the people in the beach group are supposedly the ones hoping for rescue. Everyone that went on the transceiver hike except Charlie is in this group. Sayid, Sawyer, Kate, Shannon, Boone...they would be the ones to KNOW that rescue is highly unlikely since they heard the French message that has been playing over 16 years, and had all agreed not to tell the others so they don't lose hope.

[Zambini Stardust]

Dranok03, I got so into my good vs evil theory that I never made the connection with the French distress call before. Good catch! It does indeed seem contradictory that most of those who know about the 16 yr old distress call are the ones still hoping for a quick rescue.

[aka scout finch]

So as the cave people make themselves comfortable in their new digs, what do you think they'll do about being found?

Btw, where was Claire on Wednesday? Did she make an appearance at all?

[Zambini Stardust]

No Claire. I've watched it a couple of times, and paid particular attention to the closing beach and cave scenes and didn't see her. Ditto Rose. And I also couldn't definitely see Shannon and Boone, although there was a profile view of a blond woman in the final beach scene, but I couldn't swear it was Shannon.

But, I believe all those people are still part of the show, they just haven't been featured due to story content and time restrictions. They will all be back.

[Baron X]

Totally missed the fact that the ones that stayed on the beach should be the ones with the least amount of hope, well done. Rescue seems very, very remote even before they found out that no organized party had been to the island in the last 16 years.

[Woodnymph12]

Interesting thread! I like the analysis of who has gone with which camp. I can't help wondering if it will end up the other way around, though. Remember one of the first episodes after the pilot, Jack referred to the jungle as the 'heart of darkness'? I can't help but think that if there is a light vs. dark split, the really dark stuff will go down in the cave group.

And I'm not sure I would describe Locke as 'well-adjusted'. If there is ever going to be a "Mr. Kurtz" on the island, he seems like the best candidate to me. And if he knew that guitar was there all along, that was pretty manipulative of him to tell Charlie he had faith. I hope Charlie hasn't abandoned Claire to become a Locke-disciple!

edit: sorry if this has been done before, but the symbolism certainly would indicate the beach = light (relentless sun, signal fire, optimistic people), and cave = dark (the shade, the cave, and the people who have given up hope of rescue).

[KatesBoyfriend]

I wonder if any of the show's writers visit this site to determine the holes they've left in the plot and how to fix them.

[Baron X]

If my years of watching Star Trek are a guide, writers don't care what we think.

[Zambini Stardust]

the beach = light (relentless sun, signal fire, optimistic people), and cave = dark (the shade, the cave, and the people who have given up hope of rescue).

Ah, but one could also make the light vs dark distinction based on characters, not location, to wit...
beach = dark (confrontational characters, mostly, eg Sawyer, Boone and Shannon, Sayid, Kate)
cave = light (cooperative characters, mostly, eg Jack, Locke, Hurley, Charley)

But you make a good point that those who stayed on the beach did so because of hope. However, I would suggest that those who went to the cave also did so because of hope. The two groups are simply hoping for something different - rescue or adaptation. This doesn't fit neatly into the light and dark theory, but I'm sure we'll come up with something ;)

[laserbeak]

I believe there is a strong opposites theme, i totally agree. the black and white stones, the good and bad creatures. Even the new and old opposites such as the old and new island party. There are heeps of conflicting opposites, such as race (black, white, asian, arabic), culture (jin and his sea urchants), light and day (cave vs beach), rain and sun (suddenly raining then not), groups (jacks group vs kates group), characters (jack vs sawyer or jin vs micheal). There are many more i cannot remember, and i'm sure they are there for a reason! maybe it's the whole symbolic point. Oh well we'll see.

[Stu1961]

I do not think it's going to be divided into "good" vs "evil". If it were a (consistant) theme then the polar bear (white) was somehow good, and the black rock which the French woman was trying to get to - was bad. That doesn't make sense - but little does so far. I believe it's about balance. Day/night, male/female, yin/yang - there is no good or bad side just sides which balance out the other.

Those on the beach are either optimists - or clinging to the past, while the cave group are realists - moving toward the future.

[laserbeak]

ah yeh i didn't mean to insinuate thats it's just bad vs god, i meant there is an equilibrium, and that for some reason the creators wanted a strong yin and yan type theme, maybe it symbolises something, but who knows.

[Baron X]

The regulars that stayed on the beach puzzle me, they alone know the secret that the last person waiting for rescue on the island probably waited a long time and she had electricity,( no way batteries lasted 16 years), yet they have decided to pretend every thing is fine and help is on the way.

As far as the white bear vs. black rock, we are not supposed to know about Shannon's bad translation, I doubt the shows producers knew we would put so much work into getting an accurate translation. If they planned for us to figure it out, what about the millions of regular viewers who don't come here for info? They depend on the show itself for answers, which would mean another survivor would have to get a crack at translating.

[Baron X]

ooooh wouldn't it have been a cool twist if Jack had gotten the black stone from one body and the white stone from the other?

[JacksGirlfriend]

I think the loser put the stones back into the bag before he/she finished the murder/suicide pact. Had to keep them pretty for their future shot on TV. That way we could all debate their pristine condition.

JacksGirl

[azteclady]

I'm a firm believer in conflicts in shades of gray. Rarely if ever are the decisions we made in our daily lives either black or white.

Stu1961 wrote:
"Those on the beach are either optimists - or clinging to the past, while the cave group are realists - moving toward the future."

It all depends on where you are standing, right? Those staying on the beach are optimists, hoping to be rescued. Could be. Could be they are only denying reality and creating unnecessary strain to the group as a whole.

Those going to the caves are realists, accepting what is. Or they could be pessimists, giving up the possibility of rescue without proof.

It's been mentioned that 5 out of 6 people who know first hand about the 16 year old distress call stayed on the beach - so we can ask ourselves if they are inferring that the people behind that distress signal was rescued after all, and only forgot to turn their transmitter off. Then they could be rightly considered optimists, to the point of dismissing probabilities.

Out of the people who moved to the caves, only Charlie and Jack know about the call (and the polar bear, *if* I interpreted a bit of dialogue correctly...). So, what was the motivator for the others to move to the caves? Have they abandoned all hope that easily - on Jack's word about the 6 days passed? Or have they been told everything?

In my mind, the whole thing is way more complex than that, not as easy to pinpoint. We get a glimpse to the thought processes of about a fourth of our survivors, and we know next to nothing about *their* motivation. How can we even hazard a guess to what the rest of them are thinking, what they are basing their decisions on?


Beto

[Cabana Boy]

I think the light vs dark, ying yang theory is an intriguing one and one not so easily defined as good vs bad. If we take the line of thinking that the show is a social commentary on how a "society" is formed, then the light/dark line of thinking is one of balance, where there is no light without dark. Furthermore, there can be no light without the dark. Think of the Taoist symbol of ying and yang...it's a blending of the light and dark part with a small dot of the opposites a part of the other. One cannot exist without the other. So, perhaps each camp needs the other to help survive on this island. They need someone to stay on the beach for possible rescue. They need someone in the caves to begin thinking about how survival on the island can be achieved in the long run.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Nice first post, Cabana.

Keep em coming.

JacksGirl

[annspal]

>>> So, perhaps each camp needs the other to help survive on this island. (wish I knew how to quote...)

And how long before we find the adventurous, independent soul(s) who will set out to explore the frontiers of their world? Will there be an organized (think govt. sponsored Lewis&Clark or NASA) expedition? I think it's reasonable to expect someone will have a nature that, before long, has him/her/them feeling crowded or curious and leads to ranging farther (further?) from any group circle, whether or not it's sanctioned.

(I keep having to remind myself that it might be 6 weeks for me, but less than a week on the island.)

[Mulekite]

I love this light vs. dark, good vs. evil, ying yang theory. What may appear dark to some, could open a new light to others, like with Locke vs. island monster. Perhaps there are other reasons that 5 of the 6 (7 if you include that Kate told Jack about it) stayed on the beach while others went to the caves.

First lets look at Sayid: The Leader of the beach group, we know that Sayid has military training, in fact being a member of the “Republican guard”, he was part of the best trained, best equipped and most educated of all the in Iraqi Armed Forces. His English is very good, almost too good for just a common soldier, so most likely he was educated in the United States, since he has no Australian or European accent along with his Iraq accent. His military expertise is in communication. Also it was Sayid that told all those that went up into the mountains with the transceiver, not to tell anyone since “hope” is so important for survival and “a very dangerous thing to lose”. He has a plan to tri-angle the signal to find the location of the signal already being broadcast.
Now I am just speculating, but with advancement of technology over the past 16 years, perhaps he knows a way to intensify the signal, using the lap tops and other electronic equipment available. If he is able to do this, he will need fires at night to direct rescuing planes or ships to the island, since I am quite sure that doesn’t know the coordinate of the island. He needs others help keeping the fires burning as bright as they can.

Sawyer: Sawyer doesn’t want to leave his stash of smoke, booze and whatever he has hidden since it took him several days to acquire everything. Second, I think that he has a thing for Kate “Bell of the Ball” and wants to be where she is. Remember he was the one that asked Kate what she was going to do, either go to the cave (pessimist) or stay on the beach (optimist). When she asked him what he was going to do, he made her answer first, before giving his answer.

Kate: I think that Kate was going to go wherever Jack was planning on going. But that changed when she was rejected after coming on to him on their way back to the beach with the water. She wants to know more about him saying to Charlie “ask Jack about his tattoo’s”. She had exposed herself, something that she hadn’t done with anyone for a long time and with the rejection she was hurt and refused to talk about personal things with Jack again. Upon leaving for the caves Jack says “you know where I’ll be” and then she says softly back to him, “you know where I’ll be too. I could swear that I saw tears welling up in her eyes during the Willie Nelson song “Are you sure”.

Just a thought from one of the ancients.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Mule - I liked everything you said. Very insightful - particularly about Kate.

As of right now I'd say our light/dark scenario is based totally on decisions affected by their immediate needs and emotions. Maybe that will change as time passes.

JacksGirl

[Baron X]

I'm with Aztec, nothing (well almost nothing) is black and white. Light and dark are a little more vague. But if you see everything as black or white, you may have simplified life a little too much.

[JacksGirlfriend]

God, Baron, you're just so damn serious all the time. Lighten up. Go a little grayish at least.

Actually shades of gray have been pointed out. Someone, and I believe it might have been Xander, pointed out that several people have worn striped gray shirts. What do you make of that, Baron Stay-on-Topic.

JacksGirl

[Wynter Zera]

I think Sun earned the right to go to the cave (if your theory is correct) by letting Michael know she spoke English. She didn’t know if he would tell her husband so it took a lot of courage. Maybe this means Jin will be the first to go. Or maybe the caves have more to do with getting over the idea of being rescued. Jin seemed to settle in quickly to the idea if his sushi was any indication.

[Mulekite]

Not to be to serious, but I'd like to express my opinion about how there seems to be more less gray and more black and white.

I think that people would like to imagine that there is more gray than black and white. Of course if you think about it, either you’re on the beach or you’re in the caves. There is no encampment in between. Each person has to make that decision for themselves. Now whether that choice is permanent is a matter of personal preference and of course once the decision has been re-made, you’re either once again black or white. Oh indecisive people would like to sit on the fence for as long as they can to evaluate all their options, but when it comes down to it sooner than later a decision has to be made. Do they sit and wait for a rescue plan or ship, or do they start hunting for food, shelter and water for survival. If a plane/ship never comes then the second option is forced upon them. Can they possibly to do both? Logic has it that 7 people already know that for at least 16 years a French distress signal has yet to be heard.

On the other hand, black and white could all be a matter of perspective. What seems horrible or ominous for one person could be only a small challenge for another. From one viewpoint some things seem impossible from the other it could seem a normal event. For example Jack, the doctor, and Hurley’s viewpoints about the sight of blood, injuries etc… are completely different.

One thing to think about, with every decision, there is a consequence whether it is good or bad.

[azteclady]

Mulekite,

You are right about decisions and their consequences - however, how often when deciding to wear jeans vs. wear slacks do you ponder the cosmic consequences of it?

Granted, our survivors' decisions have *slightly* heavier consequences for them than that. Still - I could decide go to the cave without giving up hope for rescue in the relatively short term.

I could easily go through something like this in my head: "Well, there are people already staying in the beach, keeping the fire signals going, and there's this guy working on powering the transceiver (because I know nothing about the 16 yo distress call), and there's no point in lil ol' me depriving myself of comfort and easy access to water and to whatever the crazy guy with the knives hunts, now it's there?" And then I could decide to go on my merry way to the cave.

I could also say to the guys in the beach, "I'll go stay in the cave for a couple of days and then I'll come back with water and food, and relieve one of you guys for a few days so you can enjoy the comforts of the cave while I take care of the fires."

Acknowledging the need to eat and drink and survive to see tomorrow doesn't mean I'm ready to give up hope of being rescued.

And it strikes me as significant that, out of the 7 people the audience knows are aware of that 16 yo distress call, 5 stayed at the beach.





Beto

[Baron X]

Going to the cave would not mean you have given up hope of rescue, it means you want to live long enough to be rescued.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Baron - you are incredibly profound. Going to chat later?

JacksGirl

[Baron X]

I thought you were trying to cut back?

[JacksGirlfriend]

I am going to cut back - after today.

I went up and logged in. If you stop by, click on me and I'll come back to see you.

JacksGirl

[Mulekite]

Azteclady,

I agree with you that deciding to wear jeans vs. slack doesn’t carry with it much of a consequence, unless you’re going to a job interview or going on a hike. If it’s snowing outside I am sure that you give what you wear a little more thought than you would on a cool summer’s day. But the wrong choice could be very uncomfortable.

I agree with you, that just because I would choose the cave doesn’t mean that I’ve given up hope, but survival would take precedence over being rescued, at least for the time being, thus a decision has been made.

If you think about it the 7 people that know about the Transceiver’s message. Sayid, Kate, Jack (Kate told Jack) Sawyer, Charlie, Shannon and Boone, the 5 that remained only 4 of them had their reasons.

The 4 of them that stayed had great reasons to hope for a rescue: Sayid has his wife and family. Sawyer has something personal (remember the first episode where he was reading the letter and he looked so heart broken?), Shannon and Boone had their luxurious lifestyle. As for Kate, like I said in one of the above posts, would have preferred to be with Jack. She has been trying to open up to him, confide in him, flirt with him and even allow him to know some of her deepest secrets. Now she is going to let him make the next move.

As far as the other 2 goes. Jack has conquered his father’s demon and Charlie is still running away or hiding from his.

[cccourt]

A great, interesting, thorough discussion.
ccc