The Smoke Monster's Motivations and/or Nature

[vonnegut]

After this recent episode (Cost of Living), I'm having a few thoughts/questions about the Smoke Monster.

It seems now obvious that it is a sentient being... and that it creates or becomes these "manifestations" that the Losties have been seeing... certainly the people that Eko saw in this episode, including his brother, and also possibly Dave, Christian Sheppard, the Horse, perhaps even Walt.

It may even be responsible for Yemi appearing in Eko and Locke's dreams in "?".... I'm not sure yet whether I think its reach is that far...

But it's possible.

My main question is...

Why did it kill Eko? Why did it want Eko so badly to "confess"? It appears that the Smoke Monster was "judging" Eko and found him in some way deserving of death... after sparing him before.

Thoughts?

[Brian]

Very interesting idea, vonne.

However, I'm not sure whether it's sentient or being controlled. When it killed Eko, it was making that mechanical sound again which is rather odd.

[SeanDude05]

Did anyone else notice the same bubbling mechanical sound when Ben and Jack were talking in the Hydra?

[CENSORED]

Great pick up Leuthen! All seems a lot more clear now with Smokie, except for the Walt sightings. All the other people it took the image of were dead (right?), except for Walt.......something doesn't add up.

I don't believe it was Smokie in Eko's and Locke's dreams....that Yemi helped them find something.

[tayo1587]

i did notice the sound, which made me think...

1. maybe this is a pickett controled thing? (revenge, etc.)

or

2. the eye-patch guy?

but i guess the horse was the monster TPTB said was there, but we may not have seen last season...

[AceOfDiamonds]

It's possible that DHARMA originally programmed Cerberus / Smokey to judge morally, as DHARMA was into that new-age demgiod-creating perfecting-humans kind of stuff, but perhaps the Cerberus project was a failure, and Smokey subsequently only has a very limited (or black/white) view of "right" and "wrong."

Smokey may subsequently be "programmed" into manifesting itself in a manner that can "test" the Losties in an attempt to have them grow. If they make the right call, they pass the test and survive (think Hurley resisting Dave's call to commit suicide by jumping off and pretending the island wasn't real in his episode.) If they do the "wrong" thing, regardless of their personal justification (and Eko's justification was reasonably legit), Cerberus pounces.

[truffula]

I don't believe it was Smokie in Eko's and Locke's dreams....that Yemi helped them find something.
I am one in the opposite camp here.
Yemi helped them find the Pearl.
Christian helped them find the caves/water.

Both I think were "forms" of Smokie.

ETA - both bodies had disappeared, now I'm not sayin they were brought back to life, just maybe "mindscanned" or something?? I dunno :p

[vonnegut]

I am one in the opposite camp here.
Yemi helped them find the Pearl.
Christian helped them find the caves/water.

Both I think were "forms" of Smokie.

But for what purpose? Why would Smokey want them to find the caves, to find the Pearl?

What possible motivation could there be?

[CENSORED]

It's possible that DHARMA originally programmed Cerberus / Smokey to judge morally, as DHARMA was into that new-age demgiod-creating perfecting-humans kind of stuff, but perhaps the Cerberus project was a failure, and Smokey subsequently only has a very limited (or black/white) view of "right" and "wrong."

Smokey may subsequently be "programmed" into manifesting itself in a manner that can "test" the Losties in an attempt to have them grow. If they make the right call, they pass the test and survive (think Hurley resisting Dave's call to commit suicide by jumping off and pretending the island wasn't real in his episode.) If they do the "wrong" thing, regardless of their personal justification (and Eko's justification was reasonably legit), Cerberus pounces.

Hot damn Ace! Awesome. I like it.


Does anyone else wonder why when Smokie first came across Eko it had pictures from his past (like it was scanning his memory?) yet when Locke looked in it he says he saw light? Seems just like two different things all together.

[CENSORED]

But for what purpose? Why would Smokey want them to find the caves, to find the Pearl?

What possible motivation could there be?

Maybe to find the guy with the eye patch?

PS- What's up Vonn Solo?!

[Calvinistic]

It's possible that DHARMA originally programmed Cerberus / Smokey to judge morally, as DHARMA was into that new-age demgiod-creating perfecting-humans kind of stuff, but perhaps the Cerberus project was a failure, and Smokey subsequently only has a very limited (or black/white) view of "right" and "wrong."

You really could be onto something with this.

Yemi helped them find the Pearl.
Christian helped them find the caves/water.

Both I think were "forms" of Smokie.

I don't think these conflict: Initially, it would be in benevolent mode until it had registered/percieved justification for going hostile.

[truffula]

But for what purpose? Why would Smokey want them to find the caves, to find the Pearl?

What possible motivation could there be?
These are the outcasts. The enemies of Ben and crew.
Smokie, the "Havids", the WHISPERS. They're trying to help them (rvt's transcripts really make me think this is another group trying to help but can't do it directly for some reason). But some of the old fundametals of the original project still remain, and Smokie kills when it doesnt get the answer it wants.

[Budman]

It seems now obvious that it is a sentient being... and that it creates or becomes these "manifestations" that the Losties have been seeing... certainly the people that Eko saw in this episode, including his brother, and also possibly Dave, Christian Sheppard, the Horse, perhaps even Walt.

I don't believe that is true. Cerberus does not manifest itself in a physical form to represent people. If you recall, Yemi exited in-front of Eko and Cerberus appeared behind him.

It has already been suggested that the hallucinations are the result of individuals being tired, I believe that compounded with electromagnetic energy contributes to the hallucinations that appear.

The hallucination in this instance is no different than Jack's father appearing in Season 1. The hallucinations by themselves are simply ominous omens that suggest someone will die.


It may even be responsible for Yemi appearing in Eko and Locke's dreams in "?".... I'm not sure yet whether I think its reach is that far...


With regard to this, I personally think the magnetic variations within the island cause this to happen. Brain waves are EM waves, therefore I believe it's possible that they can be influenced by increases in both magnetism as well as specific EM waves (Alpha, Beta, Delta, & Gamma, etc). Whether this is directly attributed to Cerberus, however I won't say. I do believe Cerberus is EM based, so it's possible.


Why did it kill Eko? Why did it want Eko so badly to "confess"? It appears that the Smoke Monster was "judging" Eko and found him in some way deserving of death... after sparing him before.


Well, I believe that Cerberus is controlled by DHARMA to an extent. I believe DHARMA is attempting to protect as many of it's stations it has left, and I believe DHARMA knows that Locke, Eko, Charlie and Desmond were all in the Swan station when it imploded.

Therefore, with respect to what Eko said to Locke, I believe Eko was specifically referring to Locke, Charlie and Desmond when he said they would be next.

All four contributed in some way to the destruction of the Swan Station.

It may even be that Cerberus has a means of detecting the intent of individuals, which occurred with Locke and Eko and thus won't attack people it feels aren't a threat to the stations. However, if someone does threaten a station or a member of DHARMA, it will in fact attack them. This would be true even if that person attacking someone who was a member of DHARMA was also a member of DHARMA.

[jmb3rg3r]

I can't believe I am getting dibs on this but my theory is....

THERE ARE TWO SMOKIES.

Black and white, just like the stones and the backgammon pieces... Will expand on this after sleep....

[AceOfDiamonds]

Anyway, what I'm curious about is:

Remember the 23rd Psalm?

Did any of those images flashing inside of Smokey as Smokey read Eko's mind in "the 23rd Psalm" match something we saw tonight?

Because that would kick ass if it did.

[The Life of Riley]

I'm still wondering if Smokey and the light are two separate entities or different manifestations of the same thing. Are they working against each other, or is it one entity that appears in different ways to different people?

[jmb3rg3r]

Did any of those images flashing inside of Smokey as Smokey read Eko's mind in "the 23rd Psalm" match something we saw tonight?
The woman who was shot in tonight's episode was in there....

[CENSORED]

It has already been suggested that the hallucinations are the result of individuals being tired, I believe that compounded with electromagnetic energy contributes to the hallucinations that appear.

My only problem with this is the intense decision Mr Eko made when talking to Yemi. That a hard thing on one's soul to go through, and I don't think one can go through that mental work while being tired. Eko was well aware of his moral decision, and didn't seem tired at all.

[Without Dane]

I'm happy TPTB finally revealed the fact that Smokey can manifest himself into different things.

Answers so many frustrating questions!

Now, maybe there are multiple smokies or something... but the vibe I got from this one was PURE evil.

[truffula]

Anyway, what I'm curious about is:

Remember the 23rd Psalm?

Did any of those images flashing inside of Smokey as Smokey read Eko's mind in "the 23rd Psalm" match something we saw tonight?

Because that would kick ass if it did.

The woman who was shot in tonight's episode was in there....
And thats the one frame from that sequence that TPTB said we hadn't seen before and would see later (it may have been in a podcast, but I can't remember :p).
I will confirm with caps tomorrow if no one else beats me to it ;)

[KOOLmike]

Did any of those images flashing inside of Smokey as Smokey read Eko's mind in "the 23rd Psalm" match something we saw tonight?

I may be wrong, but wasn't the woman killed by the "Nigerian Vaccine Warlord" the same woman who appeared in Smokie's images in 23 Psalm?

[jmb3rg3r]

And thats the one frame from that sequence that TPTB said we hadn't seen before and would see later (it may have been in a podcast, but I can't remember :p).
I will confirm with caps tomorrow if no one else beats me to it ;)Incorrect, because the lady who was shot tonight was also in the 23rd Psalm selling Virgin Mary statues.

[theghostofwalt]

where was this deep and thoughtful moral judgement when it ripped the pilot out of the plane?

[RoseArienh]

My main question is...

Why did it kill Eko? Why did it want Eko so badly to "confess"? It appears that the Smoke Monster was "judging" Eko and found him in some way deserving of death... after sparing him before.

Thoughts?

I think it killed Eko because Eko stopped repenting. He's been making a half-hearted attempt at it for years, probably running scams at the same time. A two sided person, good and bad.

He did make his confession, in a way. He confessed that he he didn't think of himself as a sinner; that he was proud that he took what life threw at him and dealt with it. Most of all, proud that he saved Yemi's spirit as a child.

In that moment, Eko both freed himself from his past and signed his own death sentence. I do believe there was a judgement made, and Eko was executed. Not for his morals, though that would be the reason given. But for the strength and power he gained when he came to the realization that he was right to be proud to have survived.

[truffula]

Incorrect, because the lady who was shot tonight was also in the 23rd Psalm selling Virgin Mary statues.
Hmmm...I could swear I remember hearing something about one of the shots we saw in Smokie in "23rd Psalm" was something we hadn't seen yet.
Oh well, thought that was it. :p
Carry on ;)

[jmb3rg3r]

Hmmm...I could swear I remember hearing something about one of the shots we saw in Smokie in "23rd Psalm" was something we hadn't seen yet.
Oh well, thought that was it. :p
Carry on ;)Wasn't there another woman in the scene?

[CENSORED]

where was this deep and thoughtful moral judgement when it ripped the pilot out of the plane?

Damn!....you has to say that didn't you? hrrmmmppphhh!

[truffula]

Wasn't there another woman in the scene?
I won't be able to confirm anything until tomorrow night when I can make my own screencaps.
This is the statue woman from "23rd Psalm" -

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/statuewoman.jpg


And here is the woman in Smokie that we didn't see yet - this is not the statue woman, possibly someone from tonight?? -

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Random%20Pics/womaninsmoke21.jpg

[ZIA]

I don't believe that is true. Cerberus does not manifest itself in a physical form to represent people. If you recall, Yemi exited in-front of Eko and Cerberus appeared behind him.

It has already been suggested that the hallucinations are the result of individuals being tired, I believe that compounded with electromagnetic energy contributes to the hallucinations that appear.

The hallucination in this instance is no different than Jack's father appearing in Season 1. The hallucinations by themselves are simply ominous omens that suggest someone will die.



With regard to this, I personally think the magnetic variations within the island cause this to happen. Brain waves are EM waves, therefore I believe it's possible that they can be influenced by increases in both magnetism as well as specific EM waves (Alpha, Beta, Delta, & Gamma, etc). Whether this is directly attributed to Cerberus, however I won't say. I do believe Cerberus is EM based, so it's possible.



Well, I believe that Cerberus is controlled by DHARMA to an extent. I believe DHARMA is attempting to protect as many of it's stations it has left, and I believe DHARMA knows that Locke, Eko, Charlie and Desmond were all in the Swan station when it imploded.

Therefore, with respect to what Eko said to Locke, I believe Eko was specifically referring to Locke, Charlie and Desmond when he said they would be next.

All four contributed in some way to the destruction of the Swan Station.

It may even be that Cerberus has a means of detecting the intent of individuals, which occurred with Locke and Eko and thus won't attack people it feels aren't a threat to the stations. However, if someone does threaten a station or a member of DHARMA, it will in fact attack them. This would be true even if that person attacking someone who was a member of DHARMA was also a member of DHARMA.

Your theory-which is good BTW, doesn't explain why the pilot was killed so violently. Thoughts?

[ZIA]

Hmmm...I could swear I remember hearing something about one of the shots we saw in Smokie in "23rd Psalm" was something we hadn't seen yet.
Oh well, thought that was it. :p
Carry on ;)
Actually Truff, I remember that too. Are we sure it was the same woman?

[truffula]

Actually Truff, I remember that too. Are we sure it was the same woman?
See my above caps for now. The woman in the smoke is not the statue selling woman from "23rd Psalm", but I don't recall seeing this woman in tonights episode.
Perhaps this was a potential future storyline for Eko, but had to be scrapped cause Adawale wanted out....

I'll definitely be providing some caps tomorrow night if no one else beats me to it ;)

[ZIA]

I did. I don't see the resemblance either.
Zia

[strummecharlie]

omg. is it bea klugh?!

[m0nwell]

I thought the woman was the mother of the alter boy near the beginning of the episode. And yes, that is the screencap we haven't seen yet, but you'll have to assume that they just used an extra for the image and then cast someone later.

Here's a guess on why the pilot was killed so quickly: Smokie read it's thoughts/memories and discovered he wasn't a good person, maybe he was Atheist. OR!!! maybe the nose crashed on another hatch and smokie got pissed, learned he was the pilot and therefore the destructor and killed him.

[Lyonyssa]

So Locke saw a light and Eko darkness. Clearly a depiction of good and evil. My question is, would Eko still be alive had he not been unrepentant? Or would his death have come more quietly?

[Budman]

Wasn't there another woman in the scene?

I thought there was a funeral procession...we didn't see that in this episode.

[Kostamojen]

It was obvious to me... Smokey has a God Complex

(Confess to me you are a bad person or I kill you!!!)

[Budman]

My only problem with this is the intense decision Mr Eko made when talking to Yemi. That a hard thing on one's soul to go through, and I don't think one can go through that mental work while being tired. Eko was well aware of his moral decision, and didn't seem tired at all.

I don't believe it is as hard as you make it out to be. Again, the point specifically made by Eko was this was how his life was lived. He always, from day one that we are introduced to him, did what he felt was justified for him to stay alive. This ended up being at the expense of his brother as well as others. Some good, some bad.

In this episode, we get to see the darker side of Eko, he lies. He put other people in jeopardy, both physically and spiritually because of his actions, and had no remorse for it. He was unrepentant.

The penitent man kneels before God and confesses his sins. Eko, both in the past (I believe) and in the present fails to repent his sins. Thus, as in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, he who isn't penitent dies.

This wasn't a great decision on Eko's part. He felt absolutely no remorse for what he did or who he hurt. Even prior confessions to Ben in the Swan station and his brother in the plane were lies. Those were things prompted by the pangs of guilt. Once he defiantly says he offers no remorse, he affirms that even his brother's death is no matter of consequence to him. He would have done the same thing over again, because it allowed him to survive.

So, I don't see Eko having gone through a huge moral choice to arrive at his decision to not repent. Rather, the decision to not repent lacks any moral choice, it is again the easiest of ways out. Anyone who has gone into a confessional, felt sorry for what they have done, knows that confessing your sins to another human being is one of the hardest things to do. It is a humbling moment in ones life.

Again, there is no huge moral choice to be made when you stand defiant of admitting you did harm. It's admitting that you did harm that is emotionally draining.

[Deadfall]

It's possible that DHARMA originally programmed Cerberus / Smokey to judge morally, as DHARMA was into that new-age demgiod-creating perfecting-humans kind of stuff, but perhaps the Cerberus project was a failure, and Smokey subsequently only has a very limited (or black/white) view of "right" and "wrong."

Smokey may subsequently be "programmed" into manifesting itself in a manner that can "test" the Losties in an attempt to have them grow. If they make the right call, they pass the test and survive (think Hurley resisting Dave's call to commit suicide by jumping off and pretending the island wasn't real in his episode.) If they do the "wrong" thing, regardless of their personal justification (and Eko's justification was reasonably legit), Cerberus pounces.

EXACTLY. I couldn't help but think the same thing after watching tonight's episode.... The first time Smokey "met" Eko, he was on his way toward finding his brother's body and, ultimately, repentance. That's why Smokey simply acknowledged him and moved on. But it was obviously a different story when Eko refused to admit he had done wrong.... The black/white analogy is perfect in describing Smokey's "mindset"!

[Kostamojen]

I dont think that Smokey killed Eko because he repented or anything along those lines...

I think Smonkeys bad program requires him to only not-kill good people, and per his defintions, it may be IMPOSSIBLE to find anyone who is truely a "good person" and ultimatly will kill anyone and everyone on the Island.

[Budman]

EXACTLY. I couldn't help but think the same thing after watching tonight's episode.... The first time Smokey "met" Eko, he was on his way toward finding his brother's body and, ultimately, repentance. That's why Smokey simply acknowledged him and moved on. But it was obviously a different story when Eko refused to admit he had done wrong.... The black/white analogy is perfect in describing Smokey's "mindset"!

Actually, I think this is inaccurate.

We know, from this episode, that in 23 Psalm, Eko saw blackness. What this suggests to me is that Eko never honestly was a penitent man. He said what he had to say in order to ensure he lived another day.

I believe the reason Cerberus moves off away from Eko in the first instance at the River is because of the arrival of the other Survivors. Otherwise, if this didn't happen I believe Eko would have been killed there.

So, this begs the question of whether or not Cerberus is "sentient" or controlled. I believe there is an AI aspect to Cerberus, but I believe he is controlled. The fact, in the presence of others, he retreats is telling. If Cerberus' was simply designed to kill, he would have killed Eko as well as the entire party that came along. But that isn't why he's there.

In fact, Eko's death honestly has nothing to do with his past off the island. The confession being sought is regarding the Swan station, not what we see in his flashbacks. Again, if it was the intention of Cerberus to kill Eko it would have happened in 23 Psalm.

Again, I strongly believe that Cerberus is in a manner of speaking controlled by DHARMA. In "?" we see how Eko's prophetic visions define a purpose for him, where he is suppose to restore Locke's faith in the island. Instead, this all goes wrong and Eko replaces Locke, leaving Locke to ponder the importance of the Swan Station.

Again, it was DHARMA, controlling Cerberus, that was trying to keep the station functional to serve it's purposes. Eko failed in the mission he was given. Eko, Locke, Charlie and Desmond all allowed the station to be destroyed. Charlie, probably is least guilty here but Eko, Locke and Desmond all have significant responsibility to bear.

It is that mistake, for which Eko is made to suffer and die.

[I Hate Seabillies]

i did notice the sound, which made me think...

1. maybe this is a pickett controled thing? (revenge, etc.)

or

2. the eye-patch guy?

but i guess the horse was the monster TPTB said was there, but we may not have seen last season...

Why in the world does mechanical sound lead you to believe it is controlled by Picket, who by all appearences is on another Island, and has no beef with Ecko? The first time we see One-eyed Willy is right before Ecko is killed, and you somehow think he's responsible because it sounded mechanical?

[Naps]

As far as blackness goes.... Charlie saw the blackness in 23rd Psalm. Kate, Jack, Locke (And Hurley? I don't remember) saw the blackness in Exodus. It even attacked Locke in Exodus. So we should be able to find some things similar between Locke's attack and Eko's attack. Any ideas?

[I Hate Seabillies]

It's possible that DHARMA originally programmed Cerberus / Smokey to judge morally, as DHARMA was into that new-age demgiod-creating perfecting-humans kind of stuff, but perhaps the Cerberus project was a failure, and Smokey subsequently only has a very limited (or black/white) view of "right" and "wrong."

Smokey may subsequently be "programmed" into manifesting itself in a manner that can "test" the Losties in an attempt to have them grow. If they make the right call, they pass the test and survive (think Hurley resisting Dave's call to commit suicide by jumping off and pretending the island wasn't real in his episode.) If they do the "wrong" thing, regardless of their personal justification (and Eko's justification was reasonably legit), Cerberus pounces.

I'm convinced Smokey is the incident Dr. Candle referred to. Your thoughts would be consistent with Smokey now running amok.

[I Hate Seabillies]

Maybe to find the guy with the eye patch?


I've named him One-eyed Willy. Guy with the eye patch or eye patch man don't fit him.

[I Hate Seabillies]

Well, I believe that Cerberus is controlled by DHARMA to an extent. I believe DHARMA is attempting to protect as many of it's stations it has left, and I believe DHARMA knows that Locke, Eko, Charlie and Desmond were all in the Swan station when it imploded.

Therefore, with respect to what Eko said to Locke, I believe Eko was specifically referring to Locke, Charlie and Desmond when he said they would be next.

All four contributed in some way to the destruction of the Swan Station.

It may even be that Cerberus has a means of detecting the intent of individuals, which occurred with Locke and Eko and thus won't attack people it feels aren't a threat to the stations. However, if someone does threaten a station or a member of DHARMA, it will in fact attack them. This would be true even if that person attacking someone who was a member of DHARMA was also a member of DHARMA.

But Ecko was not trying to destroy the Swan, he was trying to keep it going.

[gertie]

I decided to get out of this conversation.

[strummecharlie]

do you think that smoeky is sort of the faith "you have to believe side" while the others are a sciencey side? And, since Eko didn't repent, smokey felt that eko was convinced by science or something?

[TheTempest]

We saw a lot of religious connotations tonight--

The stone rolling away
The plane (tomb) empty
A (possible) resurrected being [Yemi]
The Cross
Christ died for our sins/Yemi died because of Eko's sins.
Black versus white / Good versus evil
Eko saw clouded darkness / Locke saw a bright light
Eko saw visions of his evil past / Locke said, "It was beautiful."The penitent heart is redeemed / The hardened heart is broken and finally sent to hell.
Eko was not penitent.
Pride killed Eko.

Tonight, for a moment, I wondered if Smokey was "Death" or Satan.
However, the mechanical sounds make me think that any moment, Vincent is going to pull back a curtain, revealing the All Powerful DHARMA, pushing buttons and pulling levers to control smokey.


ETA: Smokey seemed afraid of Locke, or at least he didn't want to be seen by him. Charlie saw Smokey when he was up in the tree, helping Eko to look for Yemi's plane in S2. I wonder is Charlie is in peril?

[In the Shadows]

Not sure if this matters...
Just FYI to everybody but that very distinct sound Smokey makes is the sound of the summer cicada bug. I grew up with them in Ohio. Anybody agree?

[RangerMel]

Not sure if this matters...
Just FYI to everybody but that very distinct sound Smokey makes is the sound of the summer cicada bug. I grew up with them in Ohio. Anybody agree?

The noise Eko heard DID sound like a cicada. What do you know - i grew up in Ohio too (never ever again.) I doubt they meant for it to sound like anything in particular though.

They also had a bird noise in one of the African village scenes that sounded very familiar to me. It sounded like a North American bird that i know. :p

[Steeevil]

... such as Eko's brother, I assume it can take the form of anyone on the island. How can we then take anything anyone has said on the island as 100% authentic?

[mystwoman]

Maybe it just takes a reading and then fabricates some electro magnetic telekinetic voodoo on the receptor victim.
They were doing all kinds of research at Dharma maybe this was the creature they built.

[mickyd]

The whole scene with Smokey grabbing up Eco and flailing him around, smacking him against the tree, etc. was right out of a Saturday morning cartoons. How many times have we seen Daffy Duck, Sylvester the Cat, Bugs Bunny suffer the same fate as Eco. I truly believe that that scene could have been handled a lot better. It was simply moronic if not comic in its presentation. I hope we are not going down this road with the plot line. Lost has been an exciting adventure series to this point, please don’t blow it.

[Steeevil]

Was Smokie also Jack's dad? And Kate's horse? And Hurley's friend Dave?

Editted due to: DreaminLost (thanks!)

[3519273540]

So, this begs the question

raises the question

[Fierro]

But Ecko was not trying to destroy the Swan, he was trying to keep it going.


Yes. Smokie should have killed Locke in that case.

[jmb3rg3r]

Yemmi told Eko last season that "John has lost his faith" and it was up to Eko to help him reclaim it. In fact, Eko did not try especially hard to do this. He just started pressing the button himself. Granted, Locke has regained his faith now, but that was becase of Desmond, not Eko.

[Jessicaswanlake]

After watching the scene where Eko is fighting the visions of the warlords and sees the little boy- did anyone esle get the sneaking suspicion that the Walt that Shannon was seing was smokey? The liitle boy did the same "shush" thing that walt did, and vision-Walt led Shannon straight into the path of danger. Smokey seems a bit shy tearing people apart in front of crowds (like last night when he backed off when the gang showed up at the river)- could he have led Shannon into the path of Ana intentionally since he did not want to manifest in front of Sayid?

[deumilcat]

So far Lost remains compliant with my theory:
the black smoke is a hallucination that the subject sees
during a psycho crisis triggered by magnetic waves emitted on the island
The crisis comes from a emphasizing of the subject deepest fears
and he dies from it (ala Matrix) if he cant get over it. Eko couldnt get over his guiltyness for Yemi and most importantly he never really believed in God.
All things that he couldnt hide to himself when pushed too far inside himself
The function of this confess yourself thing is too protect the island from intruders
having bad thoughts ( that s why the inhabitants are the good guys)

[3519273540]

It has already been suggested that the hallucinations are the result of individuals being tired


The secret of lost: everyone is sleepy!

[Fierro]

After watching the scene where Eko is fighting the visions of the warlords and sees the little boy- did anyone esle get the sneaking suspicion that the Walt that Shannon was seing was smokey? The liitle boy did the same "shush" thing that walt did, and vision-Walt led Shannon straight into the path of danger. Smokey seems a bit shy tearing people apart in front of crowds (like last night when he backed off when the gang showed up at the river)- could he have led Shannon into the path of Ana intentionally since he did not want to manifest in front of Sayid?



Could be. It led to Shannon's death... But remember what Bea asked Michael about having ever seen Walt in a place he wasnt supposed to be...

[NeillT006]

Regarding the sound that Smokey makes:

It reminds me of the organic sonar systems used by whales and dolphins -- series of clicks.

Last night it clearly served as an Eko locator.

N.

[Fierro]

After last episode, do we all agree that smokie did killed the pilot?

[Fierro]

That woooooo sound smokie does reminds me of a siren. Could it be another system underground reacting to this 'evil' black cloud? As a matter of fact it reminded me of the movie Silent Hill, when they hear that siren whenever something bad was about to happen.

a small observation: why no tree-ripping????????????
Isn't that curious? Was it a clue?

[Fierro]

The secret of lost: everyone is sleepy!

Whenever they fall asleep, Smokie gets inside their dreams and kill them. if you die in your dream/hallucination, you die in real life...

I HAVE SOLVED LOST: SMOKIE IS.....













FREDDY KRUEGER!!!

[DreaminLost]

I really believe there are two different Smokies.

One is good--perhaps Godlike (Locke called it beautiful, white light)

One is evil--perhaps Satan (killed the pilot and Eko)


From The Pilot episode, when we were first introduced to Smokie, we could see two seperate forces moving through the trees--remember the Losties turning their heads from side to side as the looked at the jungle?

One Smokie is helping the Losties.

One Smokie is hurting them.

[deumilcat]

That woooooo sound smokie does reminds me of a siren. Could it be another system underground reacting to this 'evil' black cloud? As a matter of fact it reminded me of the movie Silent Hill, when they hear that siren whenever something bad was about to happen.

a small observation: why no tree-ripping????????????
Isn't that curious? Was it a clue?

i also think that the sound is not directly made by smokie (since it s a hallucination)
The sound is a siren to locate the subject who sustain the effect of the psycho crisis

[Fierro]

i also think that the sound is not directly made by smokie (since it s a hallucination)
The sound is a siren to locate the subject who sustain the effect of the psycho crisis


Well, hallucinations can be auditory too.

[rvturnage]

Not sure if this matters...
Just FYI to everybody but that very distinct sound Smokey makes is the sound of the summer cicada bug. I grew up with them in Ohio. Anybody agree?
Actually, according to the S2 DVD's 23 Psalm commentary: that sound is the receipt printer for a new york city taxi cab. Which is why it was familiar to Rose.

After last episode, do we all agree that smokie did killed the pilot?
Never doubted it. Hopefully, this will settle it. I doubt it, though. :)

Two Smokey's does make a bit of sense, but I'll need to think on that one awhile...

[deumilcat]

Well, hallucinations can be auditory too.

they can but in this case I dont think they are, cuz everybody hear it at the same time even from afar (first time we hear it is from the beach, by everybody at the same time, in season 1)

[skysooner]

One thing that TPTB come back to time and again is the "sickness" on the island that requires receiving shots. Even the Others subscribe to this theory (at least while on the main island) evidenced by them giving Claire and her baby the shots. Could it be that this innoculation is not to protect against a germ sickness as we think about it but to protect them against smokie and the way in which it interacts with the human mind (which could cause psychosis)? This could be through several means (the electromagnetic field or others). I am not sure how I feel about there being two different smokies, but it is a possibility I am willing to consider.

[longlostluvr]

The whole scene with Smokey grabbing up Eco and flailing him around, smacking him against the tree, etc. was right out of a Saturday morning cartoons.

Exactly. It was pretty insulting. Who'd thunk they'd kill off one of the series most popular and enigmatic characters in such a lame, undignified and cheezy manner. :mad:

[jmb3rg3r]

To continue from my earlier post...

I suspect there is one black smokie, one white smokie. We've seen this black and white duality over and over again on the Island, and Locke's description of seeing light rather than darkness seems compatible with this.

In S1, Locke encountered "his" version of the monster in Walkabout and had a beautiful experience. But in Exodus, the monster grabbed him and tried to make off with him. We may have assumed black smokie was simply going to take him somewhere without harming him. In retrospect, this now seems to argue for two smokies rather than one.

Jack's father's "ghost" -- also in S1 -- led him to water and saved lives. That may have been bright smokie rather than dark smokie.

There was a comment last season thatg maybe we had seen the monster and not realized it. If the monster was white smoke, it would have looked like a cloud. Also, in Abandoned, when the whisperers surfaced, there was a light colored fog all around. However, now that we know (or think we know) the monster is a shapeshifter, that may explain the comment adequately.

Still germinating on this...

[DreaminLost]

Was Smokie also Jack's dad? And Kate's horse? And Hurley's friend Leonard?

After last night's episode I'd say yes. ^^I'm thinking you meant Dave not Leonard?

And then you're right, Steeevil--how do we know if we're seeing a real person or Smokie taking the form of that person?

[Warthawg1]

Maybe this was the scene TPTB referred to as being one that would make some think LOST had jumped the shark. I too thought it was just a silly visual to use on such a supposed "intelligent" show. [/Threadjack]

[Fierro]

they can but in this case I dont think they are, cuz everybody hear it at the same time even from afar (first time we hear it is from the beach, by everybody at the same time, in season 1)


I believe this are not ordinary hallucinations. They are tangible and probably not only for one person. They can be experienced by many people at the same time. Like Kate's horse.

[DreaminLost]

I'm with you, JM.

The first time Locke saw Smokie and he described it as 'the most beautiful thing', did we see it as a black cloud? I don't remember now.

It came down from the trees...

[Susan B Anthony]

Maybe this is what TPTB meant when they said we had seen the monster, we just didn't know it.

[Fierro]

One thing that TPTB come back to time and again is the "sickness" on the island that requires receiving shots. Even the Others subscribe to this theory (at least while on the main island) evidenced by them giving Claire and her baby the shots. Could it be that this innoculation is not to protect against a germ sickness as we think about it but to protect them against smokie and the way in which it interacts with the human mind (which could cause psychosis)? This could be through several means (the electromagnetic field or others). I am not sure how I feel about there being two different smokies, but it is a possibility I am willing to consider.


I speculated something like that a long time ago in my Original Plan theory, which can be reach here, if you are interested:


http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22851

[Gettin' Lost]

Smokie bothers me. I can't see this thing ever being explained. At least in a logical way. If it is supernatural or mythological I guess I could accept it. But it is really the only thing on the show that makes no sense to me. Well, nothing makes sense, but smokie is just really out there. I have a good imagination but I can't even dream up what it could be.

[jmb3rg3r]

I'm with you, JM.

The first time Locke saw Smokie and he described it as 'the most beautiful thing', did we see it as a black cloud? I don't remember now.

It came down from the trees...

We didn't see it. It was bright daylight during the scene, though. I am about to pop in the DVD and check it out because I had another question, so I will look closer....

[DreaminLost]

... in such a lame, undignified and cheezy manner. :mad:

They could have made the black smoke engulf Eko and kill him rather than slam him around.

[DreaminLost]

Locke has described the first encounter with Smokie as 'the most beautiful thing he'd ever seen' and 'a bright light'.

Not exact quotes.


If one Smokie is Godlike and one Smokie is satanlike, maybe the Whisperers are ghosts/angels?

[Fierro]

I'm with you, JM.

The first time Locke saw Smokie and he described it as 'the most beautiful thing', did we see it as a black cloud? I don't remember now.

It came down from the trees...

We were only shown Locke's face in awe. But we didnt even know if he saw the black cloud. He did say it was beutiful, but smokie was not introduced till the last episode of first season. So he could have seen other thing than the black cloud, like many suggest a white cloud. Although we must remember that on Exodus he was being dragged into a hole by this black cloud and he was sure nothing bad was gonna happen to him, as he thought whatever he saw that first time was the same thing that was dragging him.

Another cloud or being, opposite to the Black Cloud would defintely make lots of sense.

[saral6978]

Yeah, seeing Smokie kill Eko like that was SUPER lame...I mean, what the hell is that black cloud? I mean can this seriously be explained scientifically? Is it natural or supernatural or what? Do the others know about this - did they make it? I don't know...it's just ridiculous and I'd say Lost could be definitely jump the shark with this scene.

[DreaminLost]

he was being dragged into a hole by this black cloud and he was sure nothing bad was gonna happen to him.

Yes! He thought the black Smokie was the same as the beautiful one...

[Budman]

The secret of lost: everyone is sleepy!

Well, you either need to review the transcripts or re-watch the episodes. The fact that everyone who has a hallucination is physically exhausted or tired is pointed out repeatedly. This dates back to the first instance with Jack in Season 1.

The reason for this is simple, when the body becomes tired, it begins to produce more Alpha waves. Alpha waves (a brain wave) are the predominant source of dreams. In the past I have stated the possibility of an induced dream state through the use of EM Waves.

And no, not everyone is sleepy. Not everyone has hallucinations. Cerberus (Smokey) isn't a hallucination. Hallucinations are not a physical manifestation, they are completely within the mind. The fact that someone can touch or feel them, is completely within the mind of the beholder.

If you read my Theory on Hallucinations, Whispers and Others (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23512), you'll find it relies heavily on the book A Turn of the Screw, by Henry James. It is a literary reference extracted directly from the show. More importantly, the critical discussion that followed the publishing of A Turn of the Screw is by far more important than the book itself. It is through the interpretations over 100 years of critical analysis that one identifies the nuance and importance of this book as it pertains to LOST.

For instance, unlike his contemporaries, Henry James' apparitions are not physical manifestations. Where as Scrooges ghosts clanked around and opened doors, the apparitions in A Turn of the Screw do not. Likewise, the apparitions in LOST do not either. They are a manifestation completely of the mind.

Also, the apparitions in A Turn of the Screw never physically harmed anyone. They never pushed or pulled someone to their demise, however the insidious nature of them was that they manipulated the individuals they haunt to do certain things. Likewise, in LOST we don't see the apparitions physically harming anyone. Jack's father, Dave, Walt, etc, etc, etc. None physically harm those who see them.

Additionally, in A Turn of the Screw, because apparitions are completely a matter of mental manifestations, they are under almost all circumstances viewed only by a single individual. The exception to this is when someone else happens to get close to the person seeing the apparition. In LOST we clearly see this with Shannon and Sayid, it can also be suggested that the horse Kate sees was an apparition and when Sawyer is able to see it it is again because of his close proximity to Kate.

Why is A Turn of the Screw so important? Because it is the first literary work that uses these aspects of apparitions. All other works that use this aspect of these apparitions, like A Nightmare on Elm Street, owe a debt of gratitude to Henry James and A Turn of the Screw.

[Jaypers]

I think the reason it slammed him around so much was to illustrate to us, the viewers, that Eko is the strongest character (physically) on the show. They needed to be rough on him and on a more esoteric level, they had to give him what he had given to so many others, a beating.


I also think they killed off Eko for the same reason the hero in action movies never gets to get and keep a gun...it's too easy. Eko is so much bigger and stronger than the Others, it wouldn't be much of a fight.
So they had to remove him to make it harder for the 815 peeps to fight.

[Jaypers]

Yeah, seeing Smokie kill Eko like that was SUPER lame...I mean, what the hell is that black cloud? I mean can this seriously be explained scientifically? Is it natural or supernatural or what? Do the others know about this - did they make it? I don't know...it's just ridiculous and I'd say Lost could be definitely jump the shark with this scene.


If TPTB keeps with the "hard science" stuff, and eschews the more surreal things like fantasy type stuff, I believe the only real answer would be nanobots. But that has been discussed at length on other threads.

[jmb3rg3r]

And no, not everyone is sleepy. Not everyone has hallucinations. Cerberus (Smokey) isn't a hallucination. Hallucinations are not a physical manifestation, they are completely within the mind. The fact that someone can touch or feel them, is completely within the mind of the beholder.
Correct, but the development in this episode is that a visionary appearance has -- for the first time -- been strongly connected to Smokey. While this may be misleading in some way, it argues strongly in favor of the physicality of at least some of the Island's manifestations. (As does Kate's horse, which was seen by two people.)

[vonnegut]

Okay, now that I've slept on it, and read the replies in this thread...

I do not believe there are two smokies. I believe that there is one smokie. I think that smokie is able to "manifest" itself as different things. (sorry, Them, I don't think that the hallucinations are hallucinations brought on simply by weariness. All of us have been pretty tired at times... that doesn't mean that we're seeing our dead siblings walking around talking to us.)

As for the nature of smokie... it can apparently take on almost any size or shape... it grows from a little whisp flitting around in the background, to a cloud of enormous size... it can take on the form of things that it "reads" or "scans" from people's minds. It can appear as a darkness, or as a beautiful light. If you really stop to think about it... this type of power is staggering-- to be able to pick things out of people's minds and imitate it... ("mockingbird" reference)... and it really raises (not begs, apparently) the question : is this thing artificial or organic?

If DHARMA really did CREATE Smokie... was it simply as a "security system?" As a thing to judge evil/intent and mete out punishment when it finds something not worthy? That just doesn't make sense to me. If you have such an amazingly powerful creation, and actually have control over it... wouldn't you be able to find a LOT more uses for it? (I'd be using it for world domination, personally...) This suggests to me that either they aren't fully aware of the power, that they have lost control of it or in some way fear it, or that it IS being used for other things and we just don't know it yet.

Now, if Smokie is organic... that leads to other questions, the most obvious being-- can it reproduce, can it be killed, etc. If it is an actual naturally evolved creature, why are there not more of them, why is it only on this island (apparently)? In addition, questions of motivation become greater..

But I guess at this point, one thing we can all agree on, is that Smokie is sentient, at least to a degree... it is able, through it's "manifestations" such as Yemi, to hold a conversation, it demonstrates rational thought.

[jmb3rg3r]

If there's only one Smokey, which I concede is certainly possible, we have to account for its inconsistent behavior somehow.

[truffula]

From The Pilot episode, when we were first introduced to Smokie, we could see two seperate forces moving through the trees--remember the Losties turning their heads from side to side as the looked at the jungle?


I can't make up my mind whether I'm in the ONE Smokie or TWO Smokies camp yet, but this observation is a very good one. I too recall the Losties hearing the sound in one place and then again as their heads turned as if there were two seperate things moving/making noise in the jungle.

And besides, I love any kind of connection we can make to older episodes, especially all the way back to the first episode like this :)

[DreaminLost]

I do not believe there are two smokies.

Great post, Vonne.

But why don't you think there are two Smokies--one good and one evil?

Because if it was one thing I thought I came away with after the episode, it was that. But I'm very open to being wrong!

[DreaminLost]

I'm still holding out on the nanobot thing. It could be.

[vonnegut]

I can't make up my mind whether I'm in the ONE Smokie or TWO Smokies camp yet, but this observation is a very good one. I too recall the Losties hearing the sound in one place and then again as their heads turned as if there were two seperate things moving/making noise in the jungle.


Or something really, really large....

[deumilcat]

I believe this are not ordinary hallucinations. They are tangible and probably not only for one person. They can be experienced by many people at the same time. Like Kate's horse.


I think tptb try to confuse us by showing genuine hallucination and unusual things that could be halucination but later find an explanation (polar bears)

[Mattie]

And they have said in multiple interviews it's not nanobots.

I shouted "PWNED!" when Eko was getting slammed from tree to tree. Hilarious!

[LoStObSeSsEd]

If it were a hallucination, then why could Locke, Charlie, etc. HEAR smokie when they were down in the Pearl and nowhere near Eko?

I think that there is only one smokie, who can manifest himself in different forms. That is why Locke saw one version, and Eko another. I think it may be trying to weed out the "bad" people among the survivors - which then makes me think it is Dharma-related, as this is what the Others have claimed to be doing. Smokie could be a tool that they used, but now it is beyond their control.

[Fierro]

I think tptb try to confuse us by showing genuine hallucination and unusual things that could be halucination but later find an explanation (polar bears)

yea the black horse could be from the hydra, but it happens to be something from somebody else's past, in this case, Kate's past, just like Yemi, Jack's father, Dave, Boone, etc.
And if Walt was also Smokie when it appeared to Shannon, did Sayid see him too? I believe he did.
My question would be: can smokie's 'hallucinations' being seen or interacted with by more that one person at the same time? Are they collective visions?


One more thing, we know that smokie itself can be seen by many people, right? So during these non-REM visions, does it morph into this 'persons' or does it just project itself into the experiencer's mind?
If it is a morphing capability (shape-shifting), whatever it morphs into must be able to be seen by many people, as it could be considered physically 'there' just like smokie's true cloudy form.

[WayneInNYC]

I've named him One-eyed Willy. Guy with the eye patch or eye patch man don't fit him.

I'm with you. I posted the same thing on another thread. (It's a nice tip-o'-the-hat to THE GOONIES)

[Steeevil]

So, the island is a prison for Smokie. Next show.

[WayneInNYC]

Was Smokie also Jack's dad? And Kate's horse? And Hurley's friend Dave?

Editted due to: DreaminLost (thanks!)

I agree that Smokie could be Christian and the horse, he could NOT have been Dave, since Dave was standing in the middle of a crowd of people on the Island and ONLY Hurley saw him. I think it was mental stress, not unlike his ailment in the psych ward. {edited for typo}

[yoyoj06]

i guess smokey doesnt understand pain, because eko said he did what he did only to survive

*why couldnt you go into the pearl with everyone else!?!?!?*

[Gettin' Lost]

It seems that smokie is seen in different ways by different people. It depends on the person and their perspective.

[interplanetjanet]

If smokie was Yemi-in-the-hut, and started a fire: bit confusing. It could always get to the beach, but didn't bother? Doesn't like crowds, as speculated here? Maybe it needs to judge people individually, and a crowd is confusing. (Makes those bathroom-break buddies all the more critical.)

Flying smokey, cicada sounds, animal like roar; no trace of the flying trees and roller coaster/subway sounds. Two monsters? Something mechanical chases the monster? But when the black smoke dragged Locke, I thought it had the mechanical sounds? Did it want to kill or kidnap Locke? Jack and Locke both wanted to blow the hatch; why pick on Locke?

More answers and more confusion.

[vonnegut]

If smokie was Yemi-in-the-hut, and started a fire: bit confusing. It could always get to the beach, but didn't bother? Doesn't like crowds, as speculated here? Maybe it needs to judge people individually, and a crowd is confusing. (Makes those bathroom-break buddies all the more critical.)

Flying smokey, cicada sounds, animal like roar; no trace of the flying trees and roller coaster/subway sounds. Two monsters? Something mechanical chases the monster? But when the black smoke dragged Locke, I thought it had the mechanical sounds? Did it want to kill or kidnap Locke? Jack and Locke both wanted to blow the hatch; why pick on Locke?

More answers and more confusion.

Keep in mind, Janet...

Locke was begging for Jack to let him go... to let smokey take him. "It's alright," he said, (or something along those lines). Because what HE saw was "beautiful." Locke seems to have a different relationship with Smokie.

[WayneInNYC]

I can't make up my mind whether I'm in the ONE Smokie or TWO Smokies camp yet, but this observation is a very good one. I too recall the Losties hearing the sound in one place and then again as their heads turned as if there were two seperate things moving/making noise in the jungle.

And besides, I love any kind of connection we can make to older episodes, especially all the way back to the first episode like this :)

I watched the pilot again recently too, and there are DEFINITELY two sound sources coming from different directions. The Losties looked as if the were watching a really LARGE tennis match.:)

[Khan]

I'm not sure Smokie is sentient, it could be programmed, but may not be under anyone's control if it ever was. It could have started out as a protector, but got completely out of hand. That could be the reason some of the Others spend little time on the main Island, especially since it's unlikely they'd pass the good test. Thier high-minded motivations are destroyed by thier evil actions.
Eko had no problem with it until he started pushing the button, Locke had no problem until he went after the dynamite to blow open the hatch. Perhaps it was created by Dharma to insure those in key positions had sufffient morality, and it could have turned on them when it became clear they were far less than what they should have been.
If it was the boar, it didn't really hurt Sawyer but led him to be released from guilt, if it was the horse it was what Kate needed to see, if it was Jack's father it helped save lives. None of these people were dealing with anything Dharma so it was only a good thing to them.
It seems not to have a stanard we can understand for it's actions, if it is the only monster. We saw it fatally injure Eko, but all we heard was the skittering sound before it showed up and in the Eko scenes we viewed. We didn't we what was happening when the loud noise associated with the monster was heard. It could be two separate entites.
I've always believe something about the Island increases an individual's latent ESP abiliites and causes thier minds to deal with conflicts hidden in thier subconscious. For all we know Smokie is what they make it be or what they need it to be, and does what they feel should should be done. I'm a Christian but not Catholic, and even I know they believe confession is necessary before death, Eko refused to do what his religious tenets demanded, if he truely believed in them than subconciously he may judged himself. Or it could be for all of his efforts to overcome his past in the end he was evil.

[NeillT006]

hhwwfff. hhwwfff.

This thing on?

N.

[yoyoj06]

Sorry if this is a little long, but Im stating what I think.

As most of us think i presume, Eko died because he didn't forgive for the "bad" things he did(killing the old guy, killing the other guys with that machete, all the drugs). Smokey wanted him to forgive and Eko says he only did all of this because he was only doing it to survive.
This brings up the question, shoud you forgive for bad things you have done even though it is for survival? In smokey's eyes, yes you should.
Eko didnt survive smokey's attack, and I couldnt imagine how, but now with what we know.......................

SURVIVAL IS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THE LOSTIES SHOULD WORRY ABOUT!

at this point, their worrying most about what in the world is going on and where are they. But with Eko's death and him muttering "you're next", it leads us to believe the Losties have a bigger issue to worry about. But what exactly? Is smokey acting on its own? From something else?
I know the the things Eko had to forgive for didnt happen on the island, but who says the other characters did things we didnt know about.
We do know some characters and their bad things"
Locke-pot farm
Kate-Murder
Sawyer-conning

What will smokey's role ultimately be for the Losties fate on the island? I think smokey plays a bigger role then we think.

[ebos]

I bet smokey is controlled by that camera pirate guy.


And how do you know that was the reason that it killed Eko? AFAIK, the Tailies have, for some reason or another, ALL been picked to die first for some reason. They had the most trouble with the island from the getgo.

[Tanatie]

but locke ran away before the smoke grabbed him...he even looked scared to me...untill the end, when he said it's ok, let me go...so maybe this was the other smokey, but it looks pretty much the same, so locke thought that maybe it was the same one so he said it's ok to drop, but when he first saw it, he followed his instincts and ran...because when he sees it for the first time he looks like he's having an orgasm...no fear there...

[yoyoj06]

I bet smokey is controlled by that camera pirate guy.


And how do you know that was the reason that it killed Eko? AFAIK, the Tailies have, for some reason or another, ALL been picked to die first for some reason. They had the most trouble with the island from the getgo.

ok, i fixed that quote

[Fierro]

but locke ran away before the smoke grabbed him...he even looked scared to me...untill the end, when he said it's ok, let me go...so maybe this was the other smokey, but it looks pretty much the same, so locke thought that maybe it was the same one so he said it's ok to drop, but when he first saw it, he followed his instincts and ran...because when he sees it for the first time he looks like he's having an orgasm...no fear there...



yes. He looked pretty scared the second time. SO perhaps the first time he did saw a white bright light

[3519273540]

Also, the apparitions in A Turn of the Screw never physically harmed anyone. They never pushed or pulled someone to their demise, however the insidious nature of them was that they manipulated the individuals they haunt to do certain things. Likewise, in LOST we don't see the apparitions physically harming anyone. Jack's father, Dave, Walt, etc, etc, etc. None physically harm those who see them.



Oops. Wrong. Don't you remember when Dave was throwing rocks at Hurley? He seemed hurt then.

[Fierro]

Oops. Wrong. Don't you remember when Dave was throwing rocks at Hurley? He seemed hurt then.
:)

[deumilcat]

yea the black horse could be from the hydra, but it happens to be something from somebody else's past, in this case, Kate's past, just like Yemi, Jack's father, Dave, Boone, etc.
And if Walt was also Smokie when it appeared to Shannon, did Sayid see him too? I believe he did.
My question would be: can smokie's 'hallucinations' being seen or interacted with by more that one person at the same time? Are they collective visions?


One more thing, we know that smokie itself can be seen by many people, right? So during these non-REM visions, does it morph into this 'persons' or does it just project itself into the experiencer's mind?
If it is a morphing capability (shape-shifting), whatever it morphs into must be able to be seen by many people, as it could be considered physically 'there' just like smokie's true cloudy form.

I think that the smokie effect doesnt always lead to smokey appearance. it brings your fears/concerns up & thus make you see things. it may depend on how close you are from the emmitter of the "alpha" waves that trigger the effect
Sometimes it s personnal deep affects, sometimes it s collective worries of the moment , like kidnapped Walt , sometime it digs till it reaches your worth skeleton in the closet and make you face it till you get over it or die. Hence the purgatory sensation that every audience got at least once.

[jeffeff]

Not sure where to post this, because it ties a few important things from last night's episode together, but here goes:

Let's take as a hypothesis that Smokie was designed or was somehow controlled by DHARMA to determine whether a person is good or bad (i.e., has faith or not) and furthermore does in fact function as a security system. When Locke first meets Smokie, he has faith and is spared. When Eko first meets Smokie, he similarly has faith (or at the very least is working toward a belief system) and is spared. Eko, last night, renounces his faith and is killed.

Since the end of last season, I've always wondered why the Others chose Hurley to be the messenger and return to the camp to tell the rest of the survivors their message. Even though he's "spry," he's not exactly the person I would have chosen to trek through the jungle alone if it were important to me that a message be delivered. But, if we assume that Dave was also a manifestation of Smokie, and that Hurley passed his test of faith by not committing suicide, then the choice of Hurley was made because the Others knew that he could get through the security system without being killed.

Which brings us to Ben and Juliet and the question of who's good and who's conning whom. Ben, either before or ever since "a spinal surgeon dropped out of the sky," has a belief system, which is why he was able to walk across the island to retrieve Locke without being killed by Smokie. If we believe that Ben was telling the truth when he told Locke that he was one of the good ones and the he was bringing him back, then maybe Ben is trying to marshall forces of good against an impending evil insurgency led by Juliet. Ms. Klugh makes a list, gives it to Michael and tells him that he has to go get Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley and release Ben from the Hatch, because they can't. Why can't they? Because they know that they (the followers of Juliet) are evil and would be killed by Smokie if they tried. The opening shot of Season Three was of Juliet's eye. She will prove to be the prime mover, the evil mastermind of the series. Or at least I hope so, because that would be amazing.

Jeff Eff

[deumilcat]

It seems that smokie is seen in different ways by different people. It depends on the person and their perspective.

exactly

[jmb3rg3r]

But, if we assume that Dave was also a manifestation of Smokie, and that Hurley passed his test of faith by not committing suicide, then the choice of Hurley was made because the Others knew that he could get through the security system without being killed.
Sorry, but....

As was made painfully clear last night, just because you get past Smokey once doesn't mean you're going to get past him every time.

[deumilcat]

Not sure where to post this, because it ties a few important things from last night's episode together, but here goes:

Let's take as a hypothesis that Smokie was designed or was somehow controlled by DHARMA to determine whether a person is good or bad (i.e., has faith or not) and furthermore does in fact function as a security system. When Locke first meets Smokie, he has faith and is spared. When Eko first meets Smokie, he similarly has faith (or at the very least is working toward a belief system) and is spared. Eko, last night, renounces his faith and is killed.

Since the end of last season, I've always wondered why the Others chose Hurley to be the messenger and return to the camp to tell the rest of the survivors their message. Even though he's "spry," he's not exactly the person I would have chosen to trek through the jungle alone if it were important to me that a message be delivered. But, if we assume that Dave was also a manifestation of Smokie, and that Hurley passed his test of faith by not committing suicide, then the choice of Hurley was made because the Others knew that he could get through the security system without being killed.

Which brings us to Ben and Juliet and the question of who's good and who's conning whom. Ben, either before or ever since "a spinal surgeon dropped out of the sky," has a belief system, which is why he was able to walk across the island to retrieve Locke without being killed by Smokie. If we believe that Ben was telling the truth when he told Locke that he was one of the good ones and the he was bringing him back, then maybe Ben is trying to marshall forces of good against an impending evil insurgency led by Juliet. Ms. Klugh makes a list, gives it to Michael and tells him that he has to go get Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley and release Ben from the Hatch, because they can't. Why can't they? Because they know that they (the followers of Juliet) are evil and would be killed by Smokie if they tried. The opening shot of Season Three was of Juliet's eye. She will prove to be the prime mover, the evil mastermind of the series. Or at least I hope so, because that would be amazing.

Jeff Eff

the Ben & Juliet antagonism makes sense (what a pity Juliet is not called Jerry :D)

The book club scene on ep1 may be about Ben & Juliet different POV on things and they experience their view on the Losties. When Ben says to Juliet "Good Job" after Juliet tamed Jack somehow, this could be taken as much as a chief to lieutnant congrats, as a chess player to his opponent "good move" congrats

[Fierro]

Not sure where to post this, because it ties a few important things from last night's episode together, but here goes:

Let's take as a hypothesis that Smokie was designed or was somehow controlled by DHARMA to determine whether a person is good or bad (i.e., has faith or not) and furthermore does in fact function as a security system. When Locke first meets Smokie, he has faith and is spared. When Eko first meets Smokie, he similarly has faith (or at the very least is working toward a belief system) and is spared. Eko, last night, renounces his faith and is killed.

Since the end of last season, I've always wondered why the Others chose Hurley to be the messenger and return to the camp to tell the rest of the survivors their message. Even though he's "spry," he's not exactly the person I would have chosen to trek through the jungle alone if it were important to me that a message be delivered. But, if we assume that Dave was also a manifestation of Smokie, and that Hurley passed his test of faith by not committing suicide, then the choice of Hurley was made because the Others knew that he could get through the security system without being killed.

Which brings us to Ben and Juliet and the question of who's good and who's conning whom. Ben, either before or ever since "a spinal surgeon dropped out of the sky," has a belief system, which is why he was able to walk across the island to retrieve Locke without being killed by Smokie. If we believe that Ben was telling the truth when he told Locke that he was one of the good ones and the he was bringing him back, then maybe Ben is trying to marshall forces of good against an impending evil insurgency led by Juliet. Ms. Klugh makes a list, gives it to Michael and tells him that he has to go get Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley and release Ben from the Hatch, because they can't. Why can't they? Because they know that they (the followers of Juliet) are evil and would be killed by Smokie if they tried. The opening shot of Season Three was of Juliet's eye. She will prove to be the prime mover, the evil mastermind of the series. Or at least I hope so, because that would be amazing.

Jeff Eff


What I dont get about all this smokey being able to tell wether a person is good or bad or have faith or not is how on earth could Dharma have developed such a system??? It makes no sense. How could a machine anticipate your intentions, being good or bad? I'm inclining more towards the supernatural explanation on Smokie. After all, there is a station somewhere in that jungle dedicated exclusively to study Parapsycologycal phenomena.
Another explanation would be a mix of both: technology and supernatural.
Technology could explain the looks of the Black Smoke (nanobots, iron particles suspended in an electromagnetic field, the electrostatic cling (by Bigmouth), etc And supernatural could explain its behavior and mind-reading capabilities. This hybrid nature of smokie must imply that it is not sentient. Somebody else is controlling it. Somebody who happen to have supernatural powers.

Anyways, I believe that the easiest way to explain Smokie and everything else related to it, even if I don't agree with it, would be that it is an Alien.

[SpacedinLost]

After this recent episode (Cost of Living), I'm having a few thoughts/questions about the Smoke Monster.

It seems now obvious that it is a sentient being... and that it creates or becomes these "manifestations" that the Losties have been seeing... certainly the people that Eko saw in this episode, including his brother, and also possibly Dave, Christian Sheppard, the Horse, perhaps even Walt.
(snip)

Why did it kill Eko? Why did it want Eko so badly to "confess"? It appears that the Smoke Monster was "judging" Eko and found him in some way deserving of death... after sparing him before.

Thoughts?

I've been tossing about these same impressions and questions. I definitely got the sense that Smokey is a sentient being as well. As others have suggested, perhaps Smokey is the thing that went "wrong" in the Dharma experiments. Perhaps Smokey does test the Losties and when they choose free will, they "fail" and are killed?

My sense is that when Eko was buying into the good vs evil, ( eg: turning to faith when he faced his guilt re: his brother's death, etc) he was seen by Smokey as being worthy of living. When he challenged the idea that actions are intrinsically either "good" or "evil" then he was killed. When he rejected the idea that actions should be judged in isolation (eg: "murder") rather than in context (eg: for the good of another person or in self defense)... Smokey killed him.

Ok... what I'm grappling with is this. Is Smokey some omnipotent being that will only allow the inhabitants of the island to believe as IT does? The good vs. evil.. the black or white? Is that why free will is such an issue on the island? When one exercises free will vs. submission to Smokey's viewpoint, is that when they die?

We've been seeing this idea in flashbacks recently, too. Sawyer conned the inmate and received both release from prison and money for his alleged daughter. He "stole" money (conning) but it was for the good of a child, apparently. Kate's killing her abusive stepfather is another example... Good or evil vs. the context of the 'sin."

Jack's now facing this with his Ben and surgery decision....

Just thoughts. I dunno. Tawk amongst yah-selves.... Discuss. ;)

[djsunyc]

I can't believe I am getting dibs on this but my theory is....

THERE ARE TWO SMOKIES.

Black and white, just like the stones and the backgammon pieces... Will expand on this after sleep....

i agree.

locke saw the "white light"...but eko say the "black smoke"

the sinners are judged by the "black smoke"
the guy that keeps getting screwed over and keeps going through tests, the kidney, the cop, his mother...and keeps believing...sees the "white light".

locke is lost's hero, it's jesus.

[MonsterEatsPilot]

Regarding the sound that Smokey makes:

It reminds me of the organic sonar systems used by whales and dolphins -- series of clicks.

Last night it clearly served as an Eko locator.

N.

THAT is the funniest thing I have read here in a long long time.

Brilliant!

MEP/Purrkins

[SpacedinLost]

i agree.

locke saw the "white light"...but eko say the "black smoke"

the sinners are judged by the "black smoke"
the guy that keeps getting screwed over and keeps going through tests, the kidney, the cop, his mother...and keeps believing...sees the "white light".

locke is lost's hero, it's jesus.

But what about the fact that Jesus spent most of his time and energy with the sinners out of love for them? The Jesus I'm familiar with spent more time with the sinners showing them love, not darkness. Just my own .02.

BUT--- along with your ideas.... It has come to mind recently that if this DOES have a biblical or religious theme, perhaps this is all happening during the Tribulation period. After what's called the rapture, and all the Losties are being given a chance to repent. hmmm

[The artist formerly known]

I feel that smokey prevented Eko from building the church by tricking him into the importance of the hatch.

[DreaminLost]

^^That's an interesting thought.

[djsunyc]

But what about the fact that Jesus spent most of his time and energy with the sinners out of love for them? The Jesus I'm familiar with spent more time with the sinners showing them love, not darkness. Just my own .02.

BUT--- along with your ideas.... It has come to mind recently that if this DOES have a biblical or religious theme, perhaps this is all happening during the Tribulation period. After what's called the rapture, and all the Losties are being given a chance to repent. hmmm

not jesus christ. jesus...as in jesus dominguez, the guy that works in the bodega on 112th and lennox in nyc :)

[jmb3rg3r]

Regarding the sound that Smokey makes:

It reminds me of the organic sonar systems used by whales and dolphins -- series of clicks.

Last night it clearly served as an Eko locator.

Whatever it was that Locke saw in Walkabout, it did not make the siren noise.

[Jinjur]

Oops. Wrong. Don't you remember when Dave was throwing rocks at Hurley? He seemed hurt then.

Dave could have been in Hurley's mind just as he was before....where he slapped him and it hurt then too.

[Hodgepodge]

Merging with the other Smokey thread.

[LOSTfan416]

Hi, guys! It's my first post, so I'll try my best to make it relevant to the topic at hand. First of all, my girlfriend and I have been trying to figure out exactly what Smokey is and what its motives are for awhile now, and I think the best way to do that is to go through each of its earlier "appearances" and go from there:

1. Kills the pilot - The question is here is "Why?" If Smokey is indeed a monster that judges based on "faith" as has been commonly specualted, what faith (or lack thereof) did the pilot possess to be splattered across the plane?
2. Locke's 1st encounter - All we know from this is that Locke claims to have seen "a white light," and the monster was making the same alarm-sounding noises it was doing the whole 1st season.
3. Locke's 2nd encounter (w/ Jate) - This is when I bring the previous quote into the picture:

i agree.

locke saw the "white light"...but eko say the "black smoke"

the sinners are judged by the "black smoke"
the guy that keeps getting screwed over and keeps going through tests, the kidney, the cop, his mother...and keeps believing...sees the "white light".

locke is lost's hero, it's jesus.

The 2nd time Locke sees the monster, he has Jack & Kate in tow, and unless I'm very much mistaken (which could be possible, but not likely... :) ), they all see the same black Smokey that we've come to know and love as our own. Not only that, but Smokey attempts to take Locke down below, presumably to kill him.

Coupling this with the fact that Benry stated while he was in the hatch that he was coming for Locke specifically, it seems obvious that he plays a pivotal role in the Others' plans (whatever those are). Before Eko was killed (damn you, PTB... :mad: ), he and Locke were the only two castaways to face the monster alone and survive. When they faced Smokey the second time, the were both met with hostility, with Locke surviving only due to Jate's intervention.

What's all this lead to? Perhaps Smokey serves as a security system designed not to protect the island from potential harm, but to weed out "the unworthy" from joining what seems to be an Other Utopia...? :confused:

[Frecklestoo]

Eko saw smokie as black smoke which as we saw last night was an evil, deadly being. Eko thought Locke saw it, too. But, Locke said he saw a beautiful (white?) light. He also said (last season I think) that "I've looked into the eye of this island and what I saw was beautiful."

I'm thinking that the black smoke represents hell/evil, such as the smoke that comes from the fires of hell. Locke doesn't see smokie as black...he sees it as a white light representing something good, IMO, the light of heaven. When he was being pulled into the hole (last season?) he said he did not feel scared because he wouldn't have been hurt.

There seems to be a definite tug-of-war between good and evil on this island. But is it human made? Or is it more spiritual? Do certain losties view the same situations/events differently, like Locke and Eko? How does that play into the whole Lost story?

[HealMeJack]

I think dead people are somehow scanned or absorbed into the black smoke, this is why the bodies are all disappearing. Then, the black smoke can appear as manifestations. I think this includes:

Jack's father
Yemi
Boone
the polar bear (at some point escaped from the zoological research and died on the main island

That is why the Others did a "burial at sea" for Coleen and burned her body, so that she could rest in peace away from the island and not become a part of the black smoke.

This theory does not account for all of the hallucinations/visions/dreams on the island, for example Charlie sees his mother, Claire sees Locke, Hurley sees Dave (who may have never existed in the first place), Shannon sees Walt, etc.

[frogge]

I had some ideas (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25293), but a few of them have since been disproven.

[The_Lurker]

Locke saw the thing pulling him into the hole as black smoke. Interesting, that it was not the "bright light" he claims to have seen earlier. Now his expression said he was afraid of it when it was pulling him, however, he told Jack he "seriously doubted" that the thing was going to kill him. I don't really know what to make of that.

[Frecklestoo]

Thanks for the link, SICKdude!:)

[roswellian]

HealMeJack, that's a cool but far-fetched theory. Regardless, I like it.

[Kostamojen]

I feel that smokey prevented Eko from building the church by tricking him into the importance of the hatch.
Interesting...

That would lead me to believe that maybe Smokey is posssibly trying to get to Mr. Eyepatch?

[Hodgepodge]

I'm moving to the "Smokey" thread. Lets continue the discussion there.

[Hurley4Prez]

I believe Smokie is a sentient being (or at least has an unheard of level of AI).
The thought of someone "pulling the strings" and using it as his/her puppet is insulting to my intelligence, IMHO.

[jmb3rg3r]

I think that moment when "Yemmi" turned away and said "You talk to me as if you were my brother" is a clear sign of intelligence and the first personality we have truly seen from Smokey.

Given the amount of complexity to make something that could actually DO the things Smokey does, it's silly to think it needs -- or would tolerate -- an operator.

[The_Lurker]

I put this in another thread, but it seems to make more sense here...I guess I'm merging my own damn post. heh Anyway...

I'm not sure what to make of the "visions" people have in their dreams, versus the "visions" some of them have had while awake. The Losties were awake when seeing Christian, Kate's horse, Yemi, Dave, etc. However, there were sleeping "sightings" of Yemi, Boone, Charlie's mum, etc. If smokie is an actual object, it's hard to fathom how it could affect dreams, though I suppose anything's possible.

Are these related, or could these be at odds with the other (i.e. good vs. evil, corporeal vs. dreams, etc.)? What thinks ye?

[jmb3rg3r]

If smokie is an actual object, it's hard to fathom how it could affect dreams, though I suppose anything's possible.
If Smokey can get these images and memories *out* of the castaways brains, it's not that much of a stretch to think he could put something *in.*

[The_Lurker]

True, and I acknowledged the possibility. But the "dreams" seem to help the Losties, while the "awake visions" tend to have rather harsh consequences.

[interplanetjanet]

I am starting to think that Boone, who Locke saw in his vision of talking to the island, and the Yemi seen in Eko's ? dream and later Locke's ? dream, are one manifestation, the island.

The Yemi we saw in the jungle was smokey, and, as he said, was not Eko's brother. I think it's different, a security system to protect the hatch area, or at least the area near the Swan (since we know the others can get to the medical hatch easily).

This would also explain why Locke's vision directed him to save Eko, while Eko's vision appears bent on immediately killing Eko. Why not let the bear do it? Or do it in the bear's cave?

I'm perplexed by its range. (can it get in the hatch? to the beach?) Was the Yemi in the tent an island dream appearing to a sleeping Eko (in which case how and why the fire?) or Smokey making an unprecedented beach appearance to mess with someone in a coma? And again how the fire? And what happened with the bear to make Eko suddenly of great interest to smokey, enough to drag him from a sickbed and through the jungle?

I'm thinking the fire on the beach may not have been well thought out.

[Soulfracture]

I dont know if this has been mentioned, but did the altar boy putting his finger to his lips and saying "shhh" remind anyone of a certain someone before Shannon died? ;)

[jmb3rg3r]

I dont know if this has been mentioned, but did the altar boy putting his finger to his lips and saying "shhh" remind anyone of a certain someone before Shannon died? ;)It did. What did the altar boy say exactly? We weren't sure here...

[Soulfracture]

It did. What did the altar boy say exactly? We weren't sure here...He said "Shhhhhh.....Confess" when he said Shh i immediately thought of Walt, the time before Shannon got shot.

[Looking Glass]

Im willing to bet that Smokey is an entity that was on the Island waaaaaay before Dharma ever showed up. Dharma's scientific research is diametricly opposite to Smokey's nature.

And keep this in mind: I think there are two entities on the island not just one. The first episode hinted at that with Walt and Locke's backgammon game. Also, Locke has seen both entities: the bright white light entity and the black smokey wisp.

And everyone on the Island are the pieces to the game of survival that the entities are playing.

[courtneyfielder]

I thought that the producers said that everything that shows up in LOST will be something or some circumstance that can really happen? Smokie wisp thing doesn't fit with that promise they made...now I don't know what to think. I like some of the ideas on here but I am thinking this is something that was in Eko's mind.

[vonnegut]

I thought that the producers said that everything that shows up in LOST will be something or some circumstance that can really happen? Smokie wisp thing doesn't fit with that promise they made...now I don't know what to think. I like some of the ideas on here but I am thinking this is something that was in Eko's mind.

And he killed himself by throwing himself violently against trees? Very Fight Club-esque.

[redmiss99]

After this recent episode (Cost of Living), I'm having a few thoughts/questions about the Smoke Monster.

It seems now obvious that it is a sentient being... and that it creates or becomes these "manifestations" that the Losties have been seeing... certainly the people that Eko saw in this episode, including his brother, and also possibly Dave, Christian Sheppard, the Horse, perhaps even Walt.

It may even be responsible for Yemi appearing in Eko and Locke's dreams in "?".... I'm not sure yet whether I think its reach is that far...

But it's possible.

My main question is...

Why did it kill Eko? Why did it want Eko so badly to "confess"? It appears that the Smoke Monster was "judging" Eko and found him in some way deserving of death... after sparing him before.

Thoughts?

Why did it kill Eko? Did it kill eko? nevrmind that this island is strange, they;re all under so much duress, & who knows that th water isnt tainted, or th vegetation? he was pretty much dying anyway, & went thru quite th mental gamut in this whole episode. no 1saw echo beimg 'killed' by smoke monster. this show isnt scifi, so: im thinking its less sentient & more psychological. yes, othr ppl hav seen th smoke but ther also seeing horses & dead relatives

peace - redmiss

[depictureboy]

Very interesting idea, vonne.

However, I'm not sure whether it's sentient or being controlled. When it killed Eko, it was making that mechanical sound again which is rather odd.

Leuthen,
I was paying really close attention to the sounds last night. When you see the little "bee swarms" it sounds like cicadas or cricket swarms. I am not sure about mechanical...Ill listen again tonite...

[Crandyman]

We were only shown Locke's face in awe. But we didnt even know if he saw the black cloud. He did say it was beutiful, but smokie was not introduced till the last episode of first season. So he could have seen other thing than the black cloud, like many suggest a white cloud. Although we must remember that on Exodus he was being dragged into a hole by this black cloud and he was sure nothing bad was gonna happen to him, as he thought whatever he saw that first time was the same thing that was dragging him.

Another cloud or being, opposite to the Black Cloud would defintely make lots of sense.

I brought this up almost a year ago but no one ever really added to it. Now, unfortunately, Lost-media.com changed their site and links to the photos don't work and now I can't find the same pic.


Just a little something to add to those two shots posted by tony43221 and mentioned again by Lost_InBloom.

If you look at Screencap 1 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=486&pos=625) you will notice that this is the 'flipped/mirrored' image. You can clearly see that the scar under Lockes eye is on HIS left side in this shot and we positively know that the scar is infact underneath his right eye.

Now, look at Screencap 2 (http://lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=486&pos=624). Here you will find the scar being in the correct location, underneath HIS right eye. The intriguing thing is when the photo is enlarged you can see something in the reflection of his eyes. You can clearly see a black cloud/shadow stretching from the bottom of his iris, through his pupil and to the top of his iris. With our first glimpse of Smokey (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=839&pos=409) in The 23rd Psalm, we now can identify the reflection in the eyes of Locke as being the same entity that Eko witnesses.

Not really startling information but just a little insight that maybe the writters did know where they were headed when they started this idea.

There was one screencap of Locke on the ground looking right at 'something'. Now, we never knew what he was looking at until Exodus. But, if you could look back at that shot from 'Walkabout', you could clearly see what appeared to be a reflection of Smokie in Locke's eyes.
So I am apt to believe that Locke did indeed see 'black smokie'.

[jmb3rg3r]

Now, we never knew what he was looking at until Exodus. But, if you could look back at that shot from 'Walkabout', you could clearly see what appeared to be a reflection of Smokie in Locke's eyes.
So I am apt to believe that Locke did indeed see 'black smokie'.
I saw no such thing watching the scene over again today on DVD. If he was looking at trees against the sky, they would look like black smoke in the reflection in his eyes.

[Crandyman]

If I could only find that damn screenshot that I originally had linked I could even convince you. :)

[jmb3rg3r]

Well, your V for Vendetta sig earns you the benefit of the doubt. :)

[halwain]

But doesnt it seems strange that the church burned down? I mean how could that black smoke make a fire??
I think that eko hallucinated and that someone else actually was in the tent, but eko saw yemi instead of someone else.

Maybe im tired or so but when yemi said "brother" to eko i first thought " hey that sounds strangely like desmond" but well its probably just because im too tired :D:D

Oh and when eko is killed it seemed to me that the black smoke is like e metal extension, when eko is picked up there isnt a fluid motion.. that and it sounded like a rollercoaster :D

[live4wednesday]

I believe that the black smoke was also responsible for Hurley's, thought to be delusions with his "friend" last season.

[live4wednesday]

After last night's episode, I came to the conclusion that smokie took the form of Eko's brother, the victims Eko had killed when he saw them in the forest, Walt, Jack's dad, and Hurley's friend that almost, literally, sent him off a cliff. I know this topic has recently been disucussed on this forum. However, I would like to bring up that maybe smokie must steal those people before he can become them. Walt went missing for awhile and appeared in the woods making odd guestuers, something that smokie might do. We also saw that Yemi was stolen from the plane. Maybe by smokie, who then became him later in the show. Jack also found his dad's casket empty early in the show. Smokie may have stolen the body then too, and then appeared as him. I'm still puzzled how that man would have shown up to Hurley though. And Walt ended up being back with the others, so are the others in charge of smokie??
So many questions- lets go for some answers....

[Hodgepodge]

This is an obvious post for the Smokey thread already discussing its motivations. Please continue the discussion there.

[Verite Garde]

Did anyone else notice the same bubbling mechanical sound when Ben and Jack were talking in the Hydra?

Yes!

Then I thought it was just marine sounds. But it was another coincidence because it happened right after we heard Smoky.

[Verite Garde]

but i guess the horse was the monster TPTB said was there, but we may not have seen last season...

Yeah, that.

[LostFan1]

hmm

[leeann]

I think the Others claiming to be "good" ties in with Smokey. When Smokey took the form of Yemi and Eko faced him in that beautiful field with red flowers, and the view, didn't it strike anyone else as odd? We hadn't seen that view at all and definitely not that clearing with the red flowers. I think that was the "judgment" moment when Smokey decided if Eko was "good" or "bad". If you read people's recounts of their near-death experience, before the cross to Heaven or Hell, they are usually in that kind of setting. I'm sure that tree by Eko has symbolism as well, but I don't know what it is.

I don't think Eko actually is God or decides on someone being good or bad or going to Heaven or Hell. I think Smokey has its own requirements for determining that.

Maybe all of the Others have faced off with Smokey and were judged to be "good". That's why they survive on the island and why they think they are "good".

Note to self - If I am ever stuck on an island and a child appears before me giving me advice, follow it. If Eko had followed the altar boy's advice and confessed, he would have lived (at least I think so) and if Shannon and Sayid had followed Walt's advice, she would be alive.

[Without Dane]

So, do we think that the Others are so obsessed with choosing their actions and with finding the "good people" because they are aware of what Smokey deems worthy to live and what he doesn't (either because they built him or have just come to know him)?

Perhaps they all act in accordance with a set of rules that "won't get you killed" - rules that some of the survivors have broken if we are to believe Eko's final words.

[LostFan1]

what if the black smoke only attacks when it senses fear in a person. for instance in S1, season finale, locke sees it, has a weird face and then runs, and is attacked. and in S2, when eko sees the smoke, he grins at it, and it goes away. he said he wasn't scared. now in the most recent episode, he is scared and starts saying psalm 23 (notice psalm -23-, the number!!!). then the smoke attacks and kills. just a thought

[The artist formerly known]

They clearly made it a point of the noises smokey makes last night. We heard them several times. You would think that we would get an explanation soon, but according to Eko on Regis today he said and I quote...I don't think the producers know what the black thing is yet. I think they are still trying to figure that out.

[LostInTheFog]

I think I am still confused on what the smoke monster's intentions were. Remember that girl Charolette, the one that was dead and then suddenly came back to life? I remember her specifically telling Eko that Yemi said he would "see him soon." But in this episode we are lead to believe that because Eko didn't confess his sins, he will now be punished for that, and will never be reunited with his brother.

But maybe the smoke monster can only distinguish between good/evil black/white and can't be reasoned with. Maybe it can only judge whether you deserve to live or die, not WHERE you go when you die. So in a sense, maybe Eko can still be reunited with his brother after all. Because it's not like he didn't feel remorse for some of the things he had done. Remember when he asked for forgivness after he killed the two others?

[leeann]

I think I am still confused on what the smoke monster's intentions were. Remember that girl Charolette, the one that was dead and then suddenly came back to life? I remember her specifically telling Eko that Yemi said he would "see him soon." But in this episode we are lead to believe that because Eko didn't confess his sins, he will now be punished for that, and will never be reunited with his brother.



As Eko dies or right after he dies, we see him walking with his brother. I think this is meant to show they are reunited.

[twilightsun]

As Eko dies or right after he dies, we see him walking with his brother. I think this is meant to show they are reunited.
I agree. It reminded me of Gladiator.

[LostInTheFog]

As Eko dies or right after he dies, we see him walking with his brother. I think this is meant to show they are reunited.

I agree. That's why I think it wouldn't have mattered whether Eko confessed or not. Even though the black smoke killed him, he was still able to be with his brother. So exactly what was the black smokes true intentions?

[jaklynrose]

I think that Smokey inhabits the actual bodies of the dead people. When Smokey/Yemi is talking to Eko, his priestly garb is obviously very deteriorated and old, like it looked when we first saw Yemi's decomposed body. I think it also resurrected Jack's dad- I seem to recall now in S1 I thought it was kind of strange that when Jack saw his dad on the island, his dad was wearing a suit, but in one shot, had no shoes on. I think this was exactly how his body was dressed in the casket- I don't think they put shoes on the body in a casket. That was the first thing I noticed in the last scene with Yemi- how decomposed and dusty his clothing was.

Maybe Smokey can only travel the island as a wisp or in a resurrected body- when he wants to lead somebody somewhere, but because of his mechanical nature only has certain spots on the island where he can come up from underground and grab someone. It seemed like Smokey/Yemi led Eko to that spot where he was attacked, rather than just killing him where they were talking. Just my two cents

[truffula]

Because it will probably get buried by tomorrow in the Episode Discussion thread, I offer here an excerpt from my Addendum Notes and Caps pertaining to Smokie:


- so Locke said he saw a "bright Light" and it was beautiful. Did Eko see it here as he stumbled through the jungle?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/whitelight.jpg

We see him stumbling along, then he looks up and sees "the light" and starts to move towards it but as soon as he tries to, he falls over and passes out again. And when he comes to, guess who streaks by?

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/smokie1.jpg


- Smokie was following Eko around and then all of a sudden a knife is thrown at Eko and almost hits him. Just like the Black Horse that Kate saw, the knife was real, Eko grabbed it. As he sees the zombies of those he killed, I noticed that in two shots there were actually more than one zombie, meaning Smokie manifested two different zombies at once. Every other shot of a zombie is solo except for these:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/twoatthesametime.jpg

Its also VERY fast. Cause in the first shot above, you see the orange shirt zombie next to the missing arm zombie, and when Eko turns around, there he is kneeling on the ground yelling "Don't! No!", and we can see the armless zombie behind Eko still:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/2zombies.jpg


- although this is just the Sun here, I found it very interesting that given Locke's description of "bright light", they chose to use this shot IMMEDIATELY before the first zombie appears and throws the knife at Eko.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/whitelight-sun.jpg


- its amazing how Smokie takes many shapes, and I'm not talkin about manifesting Yemi or anything like that, I mean the Smoke itself. When its moving quickly through the jungle, its long and flowing like a Chinese dragon, but here, when it confronts Eko to kill him, its MASSIVE looking!:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/REALLYBIGsmokie.jpg

And again, its REALLY FAST! It extends what looks like a trunk out of its massive form and snatches Eko up in an instant. I managed to get a cap of that instant too:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/grabbingEko.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/grabbingEko1.jpg

In these shots, it really looks like a fist is grabbing Eko (especially the second one where you can almost kinda see a thumb):

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/smokefist.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/smokefist1.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/smokefist2.jpg

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e41/truffula/Season%20Three/smokefist3.jpg


Discuss on :D

Peace,
Truff

[Ekolocke]

Truff, you don't think that light was just the sun shining through the trees? Not just the second time, both times :)

[Without Dane]

great caps

[jmb3rg3r]

- although this is just the Sun here, I found it very interesting that given Locke's description of "bright light", they chose to use this shot IMMEDIATELY before the first zombie appears and throws the knife at Eko.
I was struck by this too.

[truffula]

Truff, you don't think that light was just the sun shining through the trees? Not just the second time, both times :)
Thats what I thought at first, but the shots of the sun passing through the trees elsewhere looked totally different (I can grab caps if you'd like :)). And they made it a point to show that light too I think, as well as the fact that as soon as he saw it and went for it, he collapsed.
Him waking up and smokie being right there was a little suspicious too ;)

Its probably just the Sun, but like the other cap that I'm certain is the sun, they did it for effect. Why else wait until now for Locke to reveal that what he saw was a "bright light"? :)

[vonnegut]

Thanks for that, Truff.

I agree... the use of light is... suggestive.

Because it's something only a dedicated Lost watcher/screencapper would see, I don't think that it's supposed to be an OBVIOUS hint.. but it may be a hint nevertheless.

And good point that there were more than one "zombie" at one time. This would explain how/why in the pilot episode, the sounds seemed to come from more than one place. Smokie is able to split itself.

Hmmm....

[LightSide/DarkSide]

I really believe there are two different Smokies.

One is good--perhaps Godlike (Locke called it beautiful, white light)

One is evil--perhaps Satan (killed the pilot and Eko)


From The Pilot episode, when we were first introduced to Smokie, we could see two seperate forces moving through the trees--remember the Losties turning their heads from side to side as the looked at the jungle?

One Smokie is helping the Losties.

One Smokie is hurting them.

Ever since Locke spoke of a light/dark theme in S1 I've felt that the losties were all being influenced by two opposing forces. The personification of this in two smokies is very interesting. Although I tend to agree with this idea of two smokies, there's just something... not quite right.

If smokie's name is actually Cerberus, and if there is more than one smokie, then shouldn't there be three smokies and not two? (And I'm not saying that there aren't two because I believe there are based on what we've seen so far.) In mythology Cerberus was a three headed dog that stood watch over Tartarus (the realm of the dead). He served two functions. First, he kept the dead from leaving Tartarus. But he also prevented the living from entering Tartarus.

If smokie is in fact a security system as Danielle suggested then the name, Cerberus, certainly fits that of a "watchdog". But why that particular name? It suggests that smokie is protecting a particular area. It also suggests that he is both preventing "something" from leaving that area as well as preventing "something else" from entering that area. Now if there were only one smokie its confusing actions make little sense. It leaves a person alone one day but attacks it another day (both Locke and Eko). On other days it attacks individuals on sight (the pilot). Two or more smokies would make it's/their behavior make a bit more sense. Or, if I'm not mistaken, the blast door map made reference to Cerberus as possibly "malfunctioning". If that's the case then one smokie would make sense as its malfunction could explain its seemingly odd behavior.

An interesting point that was brought up is that smokie/smokies are responsible for all/most of the havids. My first impression about the havids were that those seen by multiple losties were "real" whereas those seen by only one were perhaps manifestations of something else (smokie(s)). When I saw Kate's horse I thought that it was a havid until Sawyer said that he saw it as well. Then I thought about the polar bears. There are animals on this island that one wouldn't think to find. It is suggested in the show that the polar bears were once kept in Sawyer's cage. Danielle also mentions the bears as though they are real. So if the bears are really there then why not the horse? How did it get there? My explanation: a number of horses were brought to the island aboard the Black Rock and have since reproduced. Some have suggested that the Horse was a havid because it held meaning for Kate. But didn't Sawyer's boar have meaning for him as well?

The Walt apparition was also seen by two losties. I don't think this was a manifestation of smokie(s) either. I think Walt did this himself somehow. It wouldn't have been the first time he tried to warn the losties of danger. He attempted to warn Locke about presumeably opening the hatch. Perhaps he appeared to Shannon later because he felt connected to her. She is the one he had entrusted to look after Vincent after all.

All of the other havids that I can remember were observed by individuals and relayed a specific and intelligible message (as opposed to Walt's backwards speech). I think all of these messages can be related to one or two opposing forces that are attempting to influence the losties and are perhaps "personified" by smokie(s). Perhaps these forces are using the same apparitions to influence and confuse the losties. In one havid Yemi tells Eko to build a church. Eko gets hard to work building that church. Before Eko can finish the church Yemi tells Eko to help Locke find the right path again. To help him find the "?". Eko attempts this but instead helps Locke find the Pearl station. Looking at the blast door map as well as Locke's hand-drawn map, we can see that the Pearl isn't the "?". Finding the Pearl has the opposite effect on Locke and Eko starts pushing the button in his place. I think this is a case of the opposing forces both attempting to influence/manipulate Eko with the havid of Yemi.

I'm gonna stop now before this post gets too long which I think it already has. :p

[In the Shadows]

Actually, according to the S2 DVD's 23 Psalm commentary: that sound is the receipt printer for a new york city taxi cab. Which is why it was familiar to Rose.


Never doubted it. Hopefully, this will settle it. I doubt it, though. :)

Two Smokey's does make a bit of sense, but I'll need to think on that one awhile...

Nice rvturnage. I was not privy to the commentary but for anybody thats lived with Cicadas it sounds just like them. I felt liking posting because I was laughing at all the examples that were being posted from a toaster to a cash register regarding the sound smokey makes.

[Ekobomb]

So that's it?
When Locke encounted the monster back
in S01E04 - Walkabout, it showed him a Bright Light?

A bit of a let down if it's true, you would think he
would have been shown his past, like with Eko.

Now that my view on the monster has changed, I
think when it tried pulling Locke down the hole in Season 1,
it was going to kill him after all.

Bad monster, very bad monster.

PS: All of the sudden my account seems lifeless... :(

[Jeph]

If smokie is in fact a security system as Danielle suggested then the name, Cerberus, certainly fits that of a "watchdog". But why that particular name?

I always thought Cerberus referred to whatever causes the islands 'snow globe' effect.
Seems to fit in that it keeps the inhabitants from leaving and those in outside world from entering.

*shrugs*

[halwain]

Well im aggreing with the black smoke taking forms etc. but how does the church burn down in the beginning?? I dont believe the black smoke can actually create fire

[LightSide/DarkSide]

Well, if it's keeping people on the island (maybe) and keeping other people from getting to the island it's doing a terrible job. I mean, look at the multiple plane crashes, ship wrecks, the hot air balloon...

[Jeph]

It's doing a great job IMO.
For an unkown reason, these have been allowed to pass.

[tea&toast]

Locke said he wasn't scared when he was being pulled down the hole, and later when Eko saw the monster with Charlie, he also said he wasn't scared. But he looked it last night, perhaps that's why he was killed? I'd prefer that to him being killed because of his life (as I posted elsewhere, tabula rasa?)

[Steeevil]

... and I assume Smokie can look like anyone of the Losties, how can we believe ANYTHING anyone has said up to this point?

Any odd statement made by anyone could have been Smokie.

Was Smokie also Kate's horse? And Hurley's friend Dave? And Jack's dad?

Although kind of a cool idea; it's something better resolved quickly rather than fool fans for 3 seasons.

[Texas Red]

Was Smokie also Kate's horse? And Hurley's friend Dave? And Jack's dad?



I would assume that Smokie was these guys aswell as Yemi and the drug gang Eko saw due to TPTB saying we had seen the smoke monster but hadnt realised it (or words to that effect).

I agree that if Smokie can manifest itself as these guys whats to say it hasnt appeared as the Losties......

I think the main purpose for the smoke appearing as people from the Losties past is to test, confuse and un-nerve them.

[Wee Willy Wilson]

Hullo all, first time poster...

I believe that this episode has shown us for certain that the smoke monster is capable of imitating people/things, in this case yemi.

It still remains to be proven whether: smokey = the monster = cerebrus = lockes 'white light' = the security system = apparitions of characters/animals including some or all of: yemi, jacks father, dave, the hurley bird, kates horse.

I believe it is all of those things in one! Im probably wrong though, and it wont be the first time!

In nature it is mechanical/technological (although i agree the clicking sounds more like crickets) and operates independantly, ie with some advanced AI.

Its reason for being is possibly to protect a sensitive dharma area from people judged to be bad/evil, while allowing the people it judges good to wander freely. I think that this is why the others wanted all of the good people captured, as they would be able to go anywhere on the island without being attacked by cerberus and could get somewhere the others dont want them to go.

References on the blast door map indicate, however, that cerberus has malfunctioned, and this could explain some of its dodgy behaviour. I also think that cerberus must have a main control centre somewhere (sorry, 'center' :p) with memory storage and processing (which makes me think now, isnt this thing just a bit advanced to have been built by dharma in the 70's or whenever?? Its a bit advanced to be built now days! Hell maybe they all imagined it after all :) ) and this could maybe be where eye patch was, monitoring it maybe?

Ah well thats enough for my pennys worth on it! All speculation, and probably all wrong! Ta!

[dlpage]

Notice the sound...yes, it stuck right out and then TPTB merged that distinct mechanical sound into the background music sound (heavy bass beat).

[jmb3rg3r]

An interesting point that was brought up is that smokie/smokies are responsible for all/most of the havids. My first impression about the havids were that those seen by multiple losties were "real" whereas those seen by only one were perhaps manifestations of something else (smokie(s)).
We need to come up with a new word -- it strongly appears at this point that Smokey-related incidents may be neither hallucinations, visions nor dreams.

[Fierro]

I had this weird thought about Smokie yesterday. Sometimes its behaviour reminds me of a roaming or guardian dog, like when it quickly passed by Ecko when following him. Then I thought about the sounds it makes. There is a 'growling sound' when he aproaches to you, a 'cicada' sound whenever he passes by (like announcing itself= BEWARE OF THE DOG). But what called my attention the most was the 'retracting-chain/rollercoaster' sound and the 'siren' sound.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the chain sound and the siren sound been heard ONLY when it has captured or attacked somebody?
If that is true, what if smokie is somehow attached to a system (underground-based maybe) originally built to prevent it to get dangerously close to 'innocent/good' people or just as a way to have some kind of control over it. Picture it like a sort of a LEASH.
Whenever this black cloud attacks somebody he is not supposed to, this system activates: first we hear the SIREN/ALARM sound, perhaps as a warning of what's going on, or simply to try to scare or sooth Smokie and then we hear the chain/rollercoaster/mechanical sound when the system is trying to pull on this 'leash' to separate Smokie from its victim.
Evidently, for some reason, this system doesnt work as it is supposed to anymore. Could it be related to the incident? Is that how Dr. Candle lost his arm?

Now, before wrapping this up, I'd like to make a little observation that fits nicely into this theory, something that you are probably already thinking about...
The Blast Door Map apparently gives this 'Black Cloud/Smokie/Security System a name:

CERBERUS. Which happens to be a three-headed DOG that guards the Gates of Hades according to Greek Mythology.

[Fierro]

Nice rvturnage. I was not privy to the commentary but for anybody thats lived with Cicadas it sounds just like them. I felt liking posting because I was laughing at all the examples that were being posted from a toaster to a cash register regarding the sound smokey makes.


Did we hear the cicada sound in the pilot??? I thought Rose was refering to the mechanical sounds?

[Fierro]

Why did they pick the name Cerberus for their 'guardian dog'? Could it be simply because it sounds cool?
Or is there a deeper meaning to it? Something related to the number 3, perhaps?
I've posted this before, but since we are discussing Smokie based on recent information, I'm gonna bring it up again.
Could this security system be made out of 3 different components that work together to achieve its purpose?
Perhaps the Black Cloud itself is one of them. The underground system I proposed as a LEASH could be another one. And there could be a third one that I cant quite figure it out yet.
What I really find hard to explain is the physical nature of the Black Cloud. I know we have quite a few 'technologies' that might help us understand why it looks like it looks, but I don't know, I can't help feeling a supernatural feeling all around it.
Can we even consider the possibility of it being a weird HYDRA hybrid experiment? I mean, is there anything organic in it? I'm not suggesting that it is a real dog, but could there be some kind of animal camouflaged within that black cloud cover? Of course, this contradicts the apparent 'intelligence' that smokie seems to possess, let alone the hallucinogenic capabilities. But what if we throw in there the human factor? Could smokie be the result of a hybridization experiment involving animals and humans? And if this was the case, what if these humans were paranormal-gifted?
Now, in the case Cerberus was pure technology, does it possess a very complex level of AI or is it just human-controlled? If it is human-controlled, could whoever is controlling it have paranormal powers?
The problem I have so far with it being human-controlled is that it doesnt make much sense if it is a security system running 24/7. I think it should be autonomous. But if it is AI-controlled, how on earth can it tell who is good or who is bad, intention-wise or show the kind of personality and judgement-capabilities we have seen so far?
Then it occured to me, what if someone, taking advantage of Cerberus's malfunctioning, is using it as a sort of GUIDE DOG? For some reason, this person can't move around the island, so he is using it to SEE what's going on out there. He could be afraid of 'bad' people out there, so he is trying to get rid of them to 'cleanse' the island. I'm telling you, this guys is a reliogious freak!

[torrent]

To the naysayers, yeah, the Monster looks kind of lame, but what the hell did you think it was going to look like? This isn't a $300 million motion picture.

The Monster appears to clearly technological in origin, probably some cheesy sci-fi trope like a sentient swarm of nanobots or some such. It's ability to make people hallucinate and see visions is also a useful out for the writers to explain away the many times such paranormal phenoma have occured in the course of the show. I don't think we can know or guess anything about it's motivations, though. It's hard to piece anything the monster does into a coherent theory of behavior. At this point I might wager that the writers don't really know, either, and just make it randomly attack people for dramatic purposes.

[rvturnage]

Did we hear the cicada sound in the pilot??? I thought Rose was refering to the mechanical sounds?

I honestly don't recall...all I know is that's what the DVD reportedly says in the commentary. :)

[seymour.w]

seems like smokie is a lot like the others. He let's "good" people live, and he kills "bad" people, and every now and then he gives people who could be "redeemed" (what Goodwin said about Ana Lucia) a little more time to get better.

Looks like Eko failed to improve. And I think "you're next" is a warning to John to repent (for something he did in the past but don't know about yet) soon.

[monster]

We dont know yet if it is one or more monsters. In that case maybe one good one bad.
Either way I kind of like Smokie, its intelligent we know that.
I think Smokie was acting as Yami infront of Ecko thats how smokie contacts with the losties, as Jacks dead father for example. Smoki can sense the losteis feelings and project them back to them in a mean to communicate.
And Ecko was not among the ones with the most peaceful background,
as an warlord criminal psycho gangleader he had a lot of weight on his shoulders.
That can not be excused with that It was the cost of living, or the price that had to be paid to survive. I think thats a bad excuse....
Smokie did the right thing..... Ecko belonged to the old paradigm......
He was not ready for what is coming............................................ ..
I dont think the last words from ecko "you´re next" should be taken to seriously.....

[Steeevil]

Well, I guess it had to be something. How long before the Losties learn this and combat it, I wonder?

[Hodgepodge]

Merging these threads into the first "Smokey" thread. Lets continue the discussion there.

[monster]

You all guys and girls speak of the cereberus as being equal to Smoki.
Is this a fact or speculation ?????
Maybe the Cerberus system was the EM field caging in Smoki?
I dont know??
Maybe some of you who have been on this forum for some time will know...

[Fierro]

You all guys and girls speak of the cereberus as being equal to Smoki.
Is this a fact or speculation ?????
Maybe the Cerberus system was the EM field caging in Smoki?
I dont know??
Maybe some of you who have been on this forum for some time will know...


We are not sure that Cerberus is the name of Smokie. It's all speculation. The word Cerberus appeared first and only on the Blast Door Map during Lockdown.

The map alludes to 'Cerberus activity' and Cerberus 'system'. Then we have Danielle's comment about a security system protecting the island. Then we have a weird black smoke growling like a dog roaming around the island killing people for who knows what reason...
Anyways, I think most people on this forum will agree that Cerberus is the Smokie's name.

[monster]

Thanks Fierro

In that case they could be two separate things....
Even if the majority on the forum does not agree.
What they (the writers)make us belive maybe not the same thing as it will turn out in the end.

The other thing I was thinking about was If Smokie actually killed anyone before the implosion of the hatch.... i dont think so even though im not sure..
Maybe now.. when the EM field from the hatch is gone.. Smokie could go as far as killing.Because the hatch is not there ..Smokie will be more aggresive

[3519273540]

At least no one calls it the "stobor" anymore, that name was annoying.

[jmb3rg3r]

The other thing I was thinking about was If Smokie actually killed anyone before the implosion of the hatch....
The pilot.

[dzt66]

Okay, it took me two days to read all 21 pages, but I did it. Now for my comment...

When I first started watching Lost my prayer was that it was not sci-fi and that everything was real and could actually happen. Rumor has it that TPTB have said that that is the case. However, every time smokie shows up I start yelling and throwing things at the tv.

It is NOT possible that this thing could actually happen. I enjoy reading all the speculation and I think some of the theories are pretty good. BUT... it could not happen. An actual man-made machine that transforms into dead people, can throw a man against a tree and disappear when it wants? Very frustrating. The only thing that can explain smokie is supernatural, sci-fi, or some kind of psychic powers. That saddens me.

I am glad for this thread though because of all the mysteries on Lost, this one frustrates me the most and at least I can hear what other people think about it.

[jmb3rg3r]

When I first started watching Lost my prayer was that it was not sci-fi and that everything was real and could actually happen.
I hear many people say this (especially this week). However....

S1E1 -- Giant monster in the woods throws pilot to top of tree
S1E4 -- Miracle paralysis cure
S1E5 -- Ghost of Jack's father leads him to empty coffin and fresh water
S1E10 -- Psychic puts Claire on the plane
S1E14 -- Polar bear revealed to be comic book character, Walt hinted to have superpowers
S1E16 -- Sawyer hears voice of a dead man among the whisperers
S1E18 -- Hurley revealed to have won lottery with numbers written down by Danielle
S1E19 -- Locke sees vision that leads him to Nigerian plane

Now, by that point -- two years ago -- surely you had to know that this program was either a sci-fi or supernatural premise. I can see having a complaint at that point.

At this point, it seems to me that we've stuck with it far past the stage where ANY strictly "realistic" explanation could possibly suffice. The writing has been on the wall for a long time now.

I am genuinely curious about why anyone stuck around past 23rd Psalm (at the absolute latest) if they wanted a "realistic," non-sci-fi, non-supernatural show. I mean, by then, surely it was beyond salvaging that concept?

[dharmapup2]

I know, I know...TPTB have stated numerous times that the end game of Lost/what the island is will NOT be Purgatory. However there surely are alot of Purgatory elements considering that our Eko was just murdered by Smokie seemingly because he would not repent his sins. I know that Smokie may turn out to be programmed by humans...well that group or person seems to have one heck of a God complex if that is the case.

[dzt66]

Hmmm... you make excellent points berger. First let me say that there is no way once I started watching LOST that I could ever stop. I love the show and will never stop watching.

I guess deep down I always tried to write off some of the supernatural stuff to it just being in their heads or some kind of psychic abilities and not really happening... but I realize more now that this was not the case. I was thrilled when we dismissed the purgatory theory.

I am so confused now that I don't know which way is up. Have the writers really said that everything could really be explained?

I love being lost and frustrated, I just wish that everything happening on the island could really be explained. But it can't and I still love it.

[abcdxyz]

But for what purpose? Why would Smokey want them to find the caves, to find the Pearl?

What possible motivation could there be?

I don't know why it would want them to find the caves, but I believe that Smokie, as the security system for the island, used a vision of Yemi to get Eko to the Pearl Station. Once there, Eko was to take up the mission of pushing the button in the hatch because Locke was ready to quit.

To me this implies that pushing the button was important (not sure of the status of all that now that the hatch has been imploded), and that the island was trying to protect itself.

If that's the case, Smokie may be angry at Eko for failing in that mission, and Locke and Desmond may well "be next" on Smokie's hit list for their part in making him fail.

[jmb3rg3r]

I love being lost and frustrated, I just wish that everything happening on the island could really be explained. But it can't and I still love it.

I hear you... What I look for is some kind of context or framework in which things can make sense -- a self-consistent premise, and I don't mind what direction that goes in so much.

Although if they end a la Matrix with yet another crucifixion allegory, you'll hear me screaming all the way in Florida. :)

I do agree TPTB should have been more circumspect in what they said about where the show is going, unless they are truly planning some master stroke to explain it all, which I find highly doubtful.

It's funny, because watching the show I have utter confidence, but every time I hear Lindelof talk I become terribly terribly afraid. I know, I should judge his actions (i.e., writing) rather than his words (in interviews), but I constantly find myself thinking, "Does this man know what he's doing?"

Maybe he does it on purpose...

[sooolost]

I keep expecting them to say 'We are very pleased.'. Sorry, but the producers of this show sound exactly like Rick and Bran when they produced 'Enterprise'.

Back to Smokey -
Has anyone here ever seen an old Outer Limits episode called 'It Crawled Out of the Woodwork'? Perhaps Smokey was made during the Cerebus malfunction.

[snakey]

Why did Smokey back off from Eko everytime Locke showed up? I still think the dream Yemi was his brother, he said so while this vision said he wasnt. At this point anything can change, I thing the writers arent putting some things set into stone and are being ambivalent. The theory that you die on the islandwhen you come to terms with your demons might still be viable but why the heck does it have to be such a violent, painful death?

[JohWell]

I think the writers arent putting some things set into stone and are being ambivalent. The theory that you die on the islandwhen you come to terms with your demons might still be viable but why the heck does it have to be such a violent, painful death?

How would you prefer a cloud of smoke kill someone.
We've seen Smokie kill the pilot by smashig him around and Smokie wanted to drag Locke into a hole by a tree. Eko's death is consistent with that.

I say Smokie is controlled by a computer that became self aware, hence the fall of dharma/todays low tech dwellings. And that the guy with 1eye had root access until Locke blew up the Swan :no-no:. Now all bets are off, and IMHO Jack, Kate & Sawyer cannot safely return until Locke whips some AI ass :compwoes:.

[Without Dane]

How would you prefer a cloud of smoke kill someone.
We've seen Smokie kill the pilot by smashig him around and Smokie wanted to drag Locke into a hole by a tree. Eko's death is consistent with that.

I say Smokie is controlled by a computer that became self aware, hence the fall of dharma/todays low tech dwellings. And that the guy with 1eye had root access until Locke blew up the Swan :no-no:. Now all bets are off, and IMHO Jack, Kate & Sawyer cannot safely return until Locke whips some AI ass :compwoes:.

I like it.

[Gettin' Lost]

A major difference in the two encounters that Eko had with smokie was fear. He showed no fear the first time they met. He seemed to be on the "right" path at that time. Smokie would have seen his non-repentant heart the first time he "scanned" him though. The decision that was made before smokie killed him was in his heart in the first encounter. Smokie attacks fear. There are so many questionable people on this island. By killing based on being bad or good on certain days smokie would be smashing up most of these castaways.

[monster]

A major difference in the two encounters that Eko had with smokie was fear. He showed no fear the first time they met. He seemed to be on the "right" path at that time. Smokie would have seen his non-repentant heart the first time he "scanned" him though. The decision that was made before smokie killed him was in his heart in the first encounter. Smokie attacks fear. There are so many questionable people on this island. By killing based on being bad or good on certain days smokie would be smashing up most of these castaways.

this is interesting.

If Smokie was genuine bad evil he would have killed most by now.
So Smokie got some selective process that it bases it´s decisions on.
Intelligence for sure,,, but what kind,,,organic or artificial?
most here seem to be into the idéa that Smokie is a human programmed artificial intelligent entity... maybe they(DHARMA) lost control over the project and now Smokie is programming itself.
I could accept that Smokie is a AI entity for now, but what puzzels me is that gigantic foot, that hint towards some old, ancient (atlantis?) regim or civilisation. We dont know anything of that yet,,, It might be that Smokie goes as far back in history as the gigafoot. And then it could not be a computoriezd AI as we know it..... I hope Smokie will turn out to be organic, a part of the Island...

[Dreamgina]

We're assuming that Smokey killed Eko because he didn't repent. However, if Smokey is what Rousseau referred to as "the security system", it's possible that it killed Eko not because he didn't repent but because in not repenting he declared himself someone ready, willing, and able to kill given the right circumstances.


So it's not so much a moral judgment as the elimination of a possible danger.

Maybe?

[jmb3rg3r]

We're assuming that Smokey killed Eko because he didn't repent. No, he killed him because he didn't "confess." The message from Yemmi/Smokey was never about repentance -- he didn't say come make your peace, or come repent, or come back to God. He said -- over and over again -- CONFESS. I think Smokey was looking for something else entirely.

[dzt66]

Berger, I agree with finding the consistency and enjoying it for that. In fact, this morning when I woke up and re-watched this week's episode I enjoyed it much more. I have come to terms with Smokie and I will stop throwing things at my tv when he appears... maybe.


I say Smokie is controlled by a computer that became self aware, hence the fall of dharma/todays low tech dwellings.

I never thought about that but I sure like it! That really makes sense. Especially when all the Others keep saying, "we are not the enemy." Smokie is the enemy who took over that island and maybe even killed all Dharma people that were there.

Quite a theory to chew on.

I have a question... do you think Smokie took Yemi's body? If he did take it, where to and why?

[Without Dane]

I think that the taking of the bodies is a really interesting side note. Is it just for dramatic effect or a necessity for creating these visions?

[dzt66]

Did Eko burn the plane after he found it the first time? I read that somewhere. If so, I guess the body could have burned to ashes then.

[DharmaUdonNoodles]

I like the idea that Smokie doesn't defend the whole island (though maybe it did at one time), rather it defends the Flame or whatever that pirate guy is in. At the same time, I recall being one of those who did see Smokie in the tree on the Others' island and are hoping Smokie is a pet...smoke...cloud...thing.

[Ekobomb]

I think the monster is being controlled by someone, possibly the
eyepatch guy?
Maybe he's sitting in his hatch with a virtual reality helmet
and gloves with wires connected to them.

"Haaaa take that Mr.Eko, and now for the final blow..."
*Raises his fist and slams it down on the table*

[CENSORED]

No, he killed him because he didn't "confess." The message from Yemmi/Smokey was never about repentance -- he didn't say come make your peace, or come repent, or come back to God. He said -- over and over again -- CONFESS. I think Smokey was looking for something else entirely.

Hmmm....maybe confess something that we the viewers don't even know yet....could be interesting.

[Ozymandias]

A major difference in the two encounters that Eko had with smokie was fear. He showed no fear the first time they met. He seemed to be on the "right" path at that time. Smokie would have seen his non-repentant heart the first time he "scanned" him though. The decision that was made before smokie killed him was in his heart in the first encounter. Smokie attacks fear. There are so many questionable people on this island. By killing based on being bad or good on certain days smokie would be smashing up most of these castaways.

Agree. There were THREE encounters though, the third reinforces your point.

1. 23rd Psalm: Eko stands fast against Smokey. Smokey gets bored and drifts off.

2. Cost of Living: Eko is drinking at the stream while Smokey hovers menacingly. Eko turns around to bitch slap Smokey with the branch he is carrying and Smokey runs away.

3. End of Cost of Living: Eko recites Psalm 23 and craps himself as Smokey towers over him. Smokey shatters his spine.

It definitely senses fear.

[OldSmokey]

No uprooting trees this time ,no loud noises ?

What can this mean ???????

Ps Patchy says "What are your wisssshhhhheeessssss" LOL

[truffula]

I'm gonna merge this with our existing Smokie discussion thread :)

Carry on ;)

Peace,
Truff

[EvilGrouse]

Ok. Ready??

Ben IS Smokey. Or at least one of them. Have we seen Ben and Smokey in the same place at the same time? No.

Did you hear the monster noise in "cost of living" when Ben and Jack were talking in Jack's cell towards the end of the show? Go check.

Ben is a shapeshifter. The rest of the others are growing weary of Ben not sharing the capabilities of shapeshifting with them.

As the cloned bodies of the Emperor in Star Wars quickly detoriorate due to massive power going through them, so too have these powers damaged Ben, and caused a tumor on his spine.

Discuss. :)

[Fierro]

Ok. Ready??

Ben IS Smokey. Or at least one of them. Have we seen Ben and Smokey in the same place at the same time? No.

Did you hear the monster noise in "cost of living" when Ben and Jack were talking in Jack's cell towards the end of the show? Go check.

Ben is a shapeshifter. The rest of the others are growing weary of Ben not sharing the capabilities of shapeshifting with them.

As the cloned bodies of the Emperor in Star Wars quickly detoriorate due to massive power going through them, so too have these powers damaged Ben, and caused a tumor on his spine.

Discuss. :)


interesting... but have we seen, let's say, danielle and the monster at the same time? , what about Vincent, Picket, Juliet, Tom, Karl, Alex, etc?

[Fierro]

Agree. There were THREE encounters though, the third reinforces your point.

1. 23rd Psalm: Eko stands fast against Smokey. Smokey gets bored and drifts off.

2. Cost of Living: Eko is drinking at the stream while Smokey hovers menacingly. Eko turns around to bitch slap Smokey with the branch he is carrying and Smokey runs away.

3. End of Cost of Living: Eko recites Psalm 23 and craps himself as Smokey towers over him. Smokey shatters his spine.

It definitely senses fear.


Perhaps during Ecko's first encounter, Smokie just gathered information via the mind-scanning. Then, it or whoever is controlling it, ANALYZED that information over a period of time, making his conclusions/judgement over Ecko's life and finally during Ecko's second encounter, he gave him a chance to repent his actions. He didnt do it, so he killed him.

Doesnt this have some kind of similarities with whatever the Others are doing with their whole good/bad differentiation and their interest in the Losties' personal information?

[Box Factory Employee]

I'm pretty sure there's a connection between Eko refusing to confess to his brother and Smokie killing Eko. Maybe because it shows that Eko isn't willing to accept his faults and change, and is therefore not one of the "good" ones.


Edit: Yeah, pretty much what you said, Fierro.

[Fierro]

I posted this idea somewhere else, but since this is a thread dedicated to Smokie, here I go again:

Ok. I just had an idea after reading other post. Perhaps there IS an indication of Telekinesis in Lost after all: SMOKIE.

We know that Dharma was interested in parapsycology, they created a station dedicated exclusively to study that phenomena. So clearly paranormal stuff has already been incorporated into the show. Do we all agree?

What if Smokie is like a VISUAL REPRESENTATION OF THE FORCE BEHIND TELEKINESIS?
If people can move objects using only their minds, there's gotta be some kind of FORCE involved, right? Usually in movies dealing with this kind of stuff, we never see what actually moves the object out of its resting position. The image we have of Telekinesis is that things just move by an INVISIBLE FORCE. Do you follow?

What if Lost is trying to give this force a 'physical body'. That could explain why Smokie turned into an arm and fist to GRAB ECKO. It's like a 'visual representation of an extention of the paranormal-gifted person's mind.

What I'm trying to say here is that if we put Ecko's Death scene in another movie dealing especifically with Telekinetic powers, we would see Ecko being thrown around in the air by something INVISIBLE, like he was flying. We wouldn't see any black cloud. If I remember correctly there are lots of movies that have done exaclty this. The only difference is that Lost is showing us the FORCE that is actually causing that.

If this is true, it means that somebody else is controlling smokie.

Why can we and the Losties see this force?

I have one word for you: ELECTROMAGNETISM.



Thanks Strummercharlie for giving me the idea!!!:)

[Joenet]

depictureboy;
I was paying really close attention to the sounds last night. When you see the little "bee swarms" it sounds like cicadas or cricket swarms. I am not sure about mechanical...Ill listen again tonite...

If Smokey and the answers to Lost are truly "...grounded in reality as we know it...", then I have an idea. :detective

Smokey appears as a swarm, and it sounds like an insect swarm.
Not Nanobots (denied by TPTB), but a organized cohesive intelligent swarm of insects. Too obvious?
I think that Dharma at one point was either experimenting with Insect behavior or encountered a new species of insects that have been on the island since the dawn of time and for some reason been isolated from the world by the properties of this island. They work together to form solid objects and to pick up and mangle Losties.

I know it sounds like quite a stretch but, there have been hints to "lack of free will" and many insects perform duties as dictated by, for instance in bee colonies, the queen bee, without free will. (Bea Clue). Humans have free will. Maybe this intelligent species of insect is trying to figure out humans.
Thoughts? Let me have it.

[jmb3rg3r]

If Smokey and the answers to Lost are truly "...grounded in reality as we know it...", then I have an idea. :detective

I found this thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17621), which someone had posted several months ago, after encountering the concept on my own recently... Seems as promising as anything with a chance in hell of being "reality based"...

[Joenet]

I found this thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17621), which someone had posted several months ago, after encountering the concept on my own recently... Seems as promising as anything with a chance in hell of being "reality based"...
That's the most interesting theory I've read so far jmberger...
Thanks for the link.

When I was writing my previous post (re: intelligent insects) I was thinking of very tiny insects or bugs; but microorganisms like bacteria suspended or controlled by magnetic fields makes even more sense. Bacteria are single celled organisms, (correct?) and if I remember my biology correctly, all lifeforms on the planet are comprised of single specialized cells which are combined together and controlled by DNA strands to form the specific animal or plant. Some become skin cells, blood cells, etc. (Animal, Vegetable or Non-Metallic Minerals?)

So, if we take this concept and twist it a little - it's conceivable that if Smokey possessed the intelligence, than Smokey could configure the individual cells to form what ever creature it wanted - even a person! That you could talk to and see, and then disassemble that creature. Far fetched? I'm starting to think its not so impossible. So, instead of Nano-bots we have magnetic-micro-bacteria-bots. But they're not-bots.:scratchch

Writing this I started to think about Positive and Negative Magnetic charges and the whole black and white thing. If Smokey can transform itself into physical beings, maybe there are two Smokeys - one positively charged and one negatively charged - Opposites! This might be stretching it even more but suppose Walt appearing to Shannon etc. and speaking backwards has something to do with these opposite fields.
From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetotactic_bacteria
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ca/MTB_polarities.jpg
and http://www.strangehorizons.com/2001/20010702/living_lodestones.shtml

Any thoughts? Should I check into the Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute? :)

[Fierro]

That's the most interesting theory I've read so far jmberger...
Thanks for the link.

When I was writing my previous post (re: intelligent insects) I was thinking of very tiny insects or bugs; but microorganisms like bacteria suspended or controlled by magnetic fields makes even more sense. Bacteria are single celled organisms, (correct?) and if I remember my biology correctly, all lifeforms on the planet are comprised of single specialized cells which are combined together and controlled by DNA strands to form the specific animal or plant. Some become skin cells, blood cells, etc. (Animal, Vegetable or Non-Metallic Minerals?)

So, if we take this concept and twist it a little - it's conceivable that if Smokey possessed the intelligence, than Smokey could configure the individual cells to form what ever creature it wanted - even a person! That you could talk to and see, and then disassemble that creature. Far fetched? I'm starting to think its not so impossible. So, instead of Nano-bots we have magnetic-micro-bacteria-bots. But they're not-bots.:scratchch

Writing this I started to think about Positive and Negative Magnetic charges and the whole black and white thing. If Smokey can transform itself into physical beings, maybe there are two Smokeys - one positively charged and one negatively charged - Opposites! This might be stretching it even more but suppose Walt appearing to Shannon etc. and speaking backwards has something to do with these opposite fields.
From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetotactic_bacteria
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ca/MTB_polarities.jpg
and http://www.strangehorizons.com/2001/20010702/living_lodestones.shtml

Any thoughts? Should I check into the Santa Rosa Mental Health Institute? :)


I kind of thought something like this myself a while ago. A swarm of somethingwas the first thing that came to my mind when I saw smokie. What if it is a bunch of millions of insects working together as a whole? The cicada sound fits this perfectly! But I wasnt to conveinced of this after analyzing the way it grabbed Locke on Exodus...
Anyways, this new magnetic bacteria could make a lot of sense. What if Smokie is the infamous DISEASE?

[Joenet]

I kind of thought something like this myself a while ago. A swarm of somethingwas the first thing that came to my mind when I saw smokie. What if it is a bunch of millions of insects working together as a whole? The cicada sound fits this perfectly! But I wasnt to conveinced of this after analyzing the way it grabbed Locke on Exodus...
Anyways, this new magnetic bacteria could make a lot of sense. What if Smokie is the infamous DISEASE?
:Cheers:
Non-nanobotic-magnetic-micro-bacteria infestation. (Patent Pending):)

[Fierro]

Just trying to expand my theory about Smokie being the visual representation of a telekinetic force...
I always wondered why would Dharma include a Parapsycological Station in their research. All the rest of their experimentation fields are clearly based on science: electromagnetism, zoology, meteorology, psycology, etc.
So why include paranormal research at all? One of the main problems that scientists have faced to accept Paranormal Phenomena as scientifically explainable is that there are no ways to measure, quantify, and recreate this phenomena in a laboratory. So I was thinking what if they realized that these hidden forces behind paranormal stuff became tangible on that island?
This may have given them a way to proof in a scientific way that paranormal phenomena was real.
So they said, ok guys, let's take some psychics to the island!!!

[interplanetjanet]

I've been bothered by the idea that if Smokey manifested on the beach as Yemi, why hasn't he been a noticeable presence on the beach before now? (With props to the person who theorized Vincent could be Smokey, assuming the shape of yet another dead body found on the island--unlikely, but not impossible.)

Could it be the e-m anomoly somehow kept Smokey confined to one area, and when the failsafe detonated it, Smokey slipped his leash?

[jmb3rg3r]

I've been bothered by the idea that if Smokey manifested on the beach as Yemi, why hasn't he been a noticeable presence on the beach before now?
We don't know for sure he/she/it hasn't. Sawyer's boar? Jack's father? Dave (though I think Dave was what Dave was)?

All of them appeared on the beach. Plus, perhaps it has appeared as one of the survivors, or Vincent. Perhaps it's even taken the place of one of the survivors.

[Fierro]

Will we ever find the corpse of the real vincent???? Of course, in case, vincent has been smokie this whole time. Did Walt know that?

[avon]

I don't think Smokey assumes the shapes of only dead bodies found on the island. Examples of the opposite are Kate's horse, Walt, Dave, the Nigerian gang.

[Fierro]

I don't think Smokey assumes the shapes of only dead bodies found on the island. Examples of the opposite are Kate's horse, Walt, Dave, the Nigerian gang.


We dont know what happened to that horse. It was by the road. It may have been run over sometime.
We don't know if Walt showing to Shannon was really Walt or Smokie.
We don't know where Dave came from. Some people think he may have been Libby's husband, or one of the people that were on the dock that collapsed because of Hurley.
Didn't Ecko kill all those guys at the church????

[avon]

We dont know what happened to that horse. It was by the road. It may have been run over sometime.
We don't know if Walt showing to Shannon was really Walt or Smokie.
We don't know where Dave came from. Some people think he may have been Libby's husband, or one of the people that were on the dock that collapsed because of Hurley.
Didn't Ecko kill all those guys at the church????

My main point was that it doesn't have to be dead bodies found on the island. Suggesting that the horse was killed and somehow transported to the island would be a stretch.

Furthermore, my feeling is that the creatures that Smokey impersonates don't necessarily have to be dead. I think Smokey just gets images from the Losties' minds and uses them as models for its manifestations.

-avon-