View Full Version : Why does Jack only want to free Kate, not Sawyer?
In my other post, "why is Pickett so angry at Sawyer?", the concensus is that Pickett is immature and seeks to cause pain to Kate because she admitted loving Sawyer (see show transcript in response #27 to that post), and he figures "misery loves company"...SOOOOOO, after Jack sees on the TV monitors how Kate loves Sawyer, he decides he will rip the dural sac (which is THE subject of THAT long ago conversation he tells Kate to relate to him when she is safe), creating the opportunity...I think there is more we dont and cannot know at this point....unless of course one of the show's writers will help us out, lol.
turnip head
11-09-06, 05:28 PM
In my other post, "why is Pickett so angry at Sawyer?", the concensus is that Pickett is immature and seeks to cause pain to Kate because she admitted loving Sawyer (see show transcript in response #27 to that post), and he figures "misery loves company"...SOOOOOO, after Jack sees on the TV monitors how Kate loves Sawyer, he decides he will rip the dural sac (which is THE subject of THAT long ago conversation he tells Kate to relate to him when she is safe), creating the opportunity...I think there is more we dont and cannot know at this point....unless of course one of the show's writers will help us out, lol.
I think Jack knows that if Kate runs she will take Sawyer with her so he doesn't have to be specific like "Make sure you take Sawyer with you" Plus the lostie never really tell each other the whole story anyway.
If I am not mistaken I think Jack says that he ripped the kidney sac in last night's episode and the dural sac in the pilot. Not that it matters, but it is weird that he says 2 different things.
Sins of the Father
11-09-06, 05:30 PM
I think Jack knows that if Kate runs she will take Sawyer with her so he doesn't have to be specific like "Make sure you take Sawyer with you" Plus the lostie never really tell each other the whole story anyway.
If I am not mistaken I think Jack says that he ripped the kidney sac in last night's episode and the dural sac in the pilot. Not that it matters, but it is weird that he says 2 different things.
I agree... I mean he did see Kate & Sawyer in the same jail cell on the video monitors. I think it's implied that she would bring Sawyer along.
lostchild
11-09-06, 05:32 PM
I think Jack knows that if Kate runs she will take Sawyer with her so he doesn't have to be specific like "Make sure you take Sawyer with you" Plus the lostie never really tell each other the whole story anyway.
If I am not mistaken I think Jack says that he ripped the kidney sac in last night's episode and the dural sac in the pilot. Not that it matters, but it is weird that he says 2 different things.
Yes Turnip, well said
caldric
11-09-06, 05:32 PM
My impression was that Jack wanted Kate to repeat the story he had told her on the beach so that he could verify it was actually her on the other side of the walkie talkie. I don't think the story had anything to do directly with what Jack did to Ben.
turnip head
11-09-06, 05:36 PM
Thanks for the kind words lostchild, love your avatar by the way.
caldric, that is a good point. I think there are a lot of reasons why jack asked her about the story
* He only told it to her
* It definitely echos the situation in the or
* Remember he said he let the fear sink in for a few minutes, and then got
the job done. I think he wants her to do the same.
LostNotForgotten
11-09-06, 05:40 PM
Me and my friend were talking about this last night. I asked her "does Jack just not give a crap about Sawyer now because he got Kate?" I thought he was going to save Sawyer last night, but then I got very confused.
The Central Scrutinizer
11-09-06, 05:49 PM
Thanks for the kind words lostchild, love your avatar by the way.
caldric, that is a good point. I think there are a lot of reasons why jack asked her about the story
* He only told it to her
* It definitely echos the situation in the or
* Remember he said he let the fear sink in for a few minutes, and then got
the job done. I think he wants her to do the same.
You got it, turnip head. The big one is that Kate is the only person on that island who tells the story. If Kate is not safe by the time they radio again, she will tell a different story. Jack will know the difference.
And the key thing is, so will we. That's one of the requirements for a good script: Make the audience feel smart without spelling everything out. When we can connect the dots, we're invested in the story. Could make for a stirring moment for Episode 7.
dagriff
11-09-06, 05:56 PM
The only reason for Jack's instructions to Kate to "tell the story" is that the phrase means something very specific to Jack and Kate, but not to the Others. So if Kate were kept captive and coerced into making the call on the walkie-talkie, all she would have to do to let Jack know she is not safe is to tell a different story. This insures that Kate will actually be freed, as the Others are well aware that Kate could say ANYTHING into the walkie talkie and they would be none the wiser until it was too late to save Ben.
Oh, and Jack could have only requested Kate's freedom so that he can eliminate his competition for her affection. Play hero while Sawyer plays martyr. This strategy is foolish, as any man fares better in competition with a flawed human than an infallible memory, but it could be Jack's plan anyway. This love triangle is getting tired, let's resolve it and move on.
The Central Scrutinizer
11-09-06, 06:03 PM
Oh by the way, I don't think Jack has it out for Sawyer.
Fourtoes
11-09-06, 06:05 PM
I think Jack knows that if Kate runs she will take Sawyer with her so he doesn't have to be specific like "Make sure you take Sawyer with you" Plus the lostie never really tell each other the whole story anyway.
If I am not mistaken I think Jack says that he ripped the kidney sac in last night's episode and the dural sac in the pilot. Not that it matters, but it is weird that he says 2 different things.
I thought about this issue, too, and have to agree that the most likely explanation is that Jack is not trying to exclude Sawyer.
But I do think the entire scene raises two more interesting questions:
1) Has Jack really cut the sac and is there really still an hour by the time Kate comes to the walkie talkie (and if not, does Juliet realize Jack is bluffing).
2) Why doesn't Kate immediately tell Jack that Sawyer has said there are 2 islands?
turnip head
11-09-06, 07:04 PM
I think it doesn't matter whether he cut the sac or not, he still has his spine open on the table and no matter what, if he doesn't close it of get rid of the tumor Ben will die, but maybe not on the timetable that Juliet nedds him to die.
I think Kate is trying to tell Jack that there is no where to go, but he is not listening, as usual. I really like Jack, but we all know he has a tendency to think he knows the right thing to do with out any help.
Soulfracture
11-09-06, 07:20 PM
i dont think jack is angry with sawyer, when he saw them on the monitors, he smiled to himself rather than looking annoyed.
lizarduckmonkey
11-09-06, 07:21 PM
They don't have the luxury of time here. He's not dismissing Sawyer, you think he's going to ask to talk to Sawyer when he knows he'll achieve nothing by it? He's not going to waste time mentioning Sawyer when it's obvious she'll take him with her. And for all Jack knows, Sawyer might already be dead. Kate and Jack have a connection, she understands what he wants her to do. I don't think it's that Jack isn't listening to Kate, it's just that she says, "I can't leave without you" first, that's what he's assuming she means by "I can't, I can't" (and who knows, maybe that's exactly what she means). They can get away from the Others and get safe without escaping to the mainland and from there they can formulate a plan to get across.
Ida Monster
11-09-06, 07:29 PM
I thought Jack was referring to when he was on the beach trying to sew up his own wound on his back. When Kate told him about how she made her own drapes.
JACK: Excuse me. Did you ever use a needle?
KATE: What?
JACK: Did you ever: patch a pair of jeans?
KATE: I, um, I made the drapes in my apartment.
JACK: That's fantastic. Listen, do you have a second. I could use a little help here.
[Kate walks over to him.]
KATE: Help with what?
[Jack shows her the wound, and she grimaces.]
JACK: Look, I'd do it myself, I'm a doctor, but I just can't reach it.
KATE: You want me to sew that up?
JACK: It's just like the drapes, same thing.
KATE: No, with the drapes I used a sewing machine.
JACK: No, you can do this. I'm telling you. If you wouldn't mind.
[Jack looks at her pleadingly.]
KATE: Of course I will.
JACK: Thank you; [handing her the little liquor bottle from his pocket] It's for your hands. Save me some for the, for the wound.
[Kate picks up a little sewing kit.]
KATE: Any color preference?
JACK [laughing]: Standard black.
[Jack dumps the vodka on his wound.]
lizarduckmonkey
11-09-06, 07:31 PM
He's referring to the story he told her as she was stitching up his back. It's not about the content of the story, it's the fact that she is the only one who knows the story.
I got the impression that he was using the story as a way to insure that only she would know it, and if she told the right one...then he knew she was safe. But it also makes sense that he is trying to tell her that he just did a similar thing to Ben on purpose...so she knows she has to hurry and get out of there...before he loses his last playing card.
I couldn't figure out why he was telling just Kate to leave...but like others said...Jack probably figures Kate won't leave without Sawyer...so it is just an easier and shorter way of Jack telling her to get them both out of there. It is just too bad she didn't tell him they are trapped on the island, so Jack could make another bargain...like the "others" giving them a boat or something.
I don't think Jack is out to get Sawyer. He probably just wants to save them, and is putting his own life on the line to do so. He just wants them all to be safe and if she is happy with Sawyer...then so be it. Jack is a big boy, he can deal with it.
carmela
11-09-06, 08:25 PM
My initial impression is that Jack was trying to help Kate...only. I thought that he was using this opportunity to let her go free and, basically, leave Sawyer to face his fate.
After reading some of these posts, I am thinking that my first impressions were wrong. Jack knows Kate will listen to him and he knows that she will not leave Sawyer behind. He knows that she is clever.
Is he possibly sacrificing himself so that Kate and Sawyer can escape? Maybe. It may play into the title of the Episode 1: A Tale of Two Cities - where one man sacrifices himself so that another man and woman can live.
I just can't reconcile why Kate is screaming "I'm not leaving without you".
tewkewl74
11-09-06, 08:33 PM
excellent question. i asked this in another thread already. but it begs to be discussed here too.
it just doesn't make sense. but in the previews, it shows both of them running, so we know that both of them escape.
Homer Noodleman
11-09-06, 08:43 PM
I think he picked that story not only because it was one that only she knew, but also as a reenforcement to Kate to face her fears.
Oh, and TPTB also wanted to remind the viewer that when he first told the story, and ended it with "You're not running now", that he was wrong because Kate was running. This is the time when she actually isn't running, but is sticking by Sawyer and Jack.
As for Jack and Sawyer, remember he got cuckolded in his flashback. Regardless of what he thinks about Sawyer he doesn't want to do that to him. That's why he backed away from Kate in Season Two when he thought Sawyer and her were becomming an item. However, Jack is primarily worried about Kate at the moment, but he must know from her appeal to him for Sawyer's life earlier that she isn't leaving without him.
Ida Monster
11-09-06, 08:43 PM
He's referring to the story he told her as she was stitching up his back. It's not about the content of the story, it's the fact that she is the only one who knows the story.
Yes, I understand that..but others are posting that it is the other story he told Kate in the jungle about ripping the dural sac on the girl he was operating on and and letting the fear in while counting to five.. yadda yadda yadda. Two seperate stories, two seperate times. So which is it? Anyone? Please? kthnx
The Central Scrutinizer
11-09-06, 08:47 PM
Yes, I understand that..but others are posting that it is the other story he told Kate in the jungle about ripping the dural sac on the girl he was operating on and and letting the fear in while counting to five.. yadda yadda yadda. Two seperate stories, two seperate times. So which is it? Anyone? Please? kthnx
That is the story he told her to calm her nerves as she stitched up his back--The one he told her to remember in "I Do."
Ida Monster
11-09-06, 08:50 PM
That is the story he told her to calm her nerves as she stitched up her back.
Oh.. duuuuuuuh.. I just read further down the transcript and there it was.. Nevermind.. nothing to see here.. go about your business.
http://img9.imagepile.net/img9/250180px-Graham_Chapman_Colonel.jpg
Unlocke Locke
11-09-06, 08:51 PM
I had initially thought that Kate wasn't going to leave because of Sawyer. I did not think that Jack is meaning for Sawyer to escape. I thought that after Jack saw those too on the monitor that he was pissed. He did smile to himself, but it was not the smile of someone who liked what he saw. I think also that he is using his situation to free Kate and Kate only....because I think he wants Sawyer dead. Thats JMO and my initial reaction.
My initial impression is that Jack was trying to help Kate...only. I thought that he was using this opportunity to let her go free and, basically, leave Sawyer to face his fate.
After reading some of these posts, I am thinking that my first impressions were wrong. Jack knows Kate will listen to him and he knows that she will not leave Sawyer behind. He knows that she is clever.
You initial impression was exactly the same as mine. I even posted this in the Episode discussion thread right after the show ended. Then, after thinking about it Jack knows that Kate would take Sawyer.
My problem is that if Jack would have said "Kate you and Sawyer run" this would have showed that Jack had conceded, case closed and let the Skating begin. However, Jack did not say that he only mentioned Kate and then Kate replied I can't leave without you. I think TPTB wanted to create more ambiguity around the love triangle. Is is solved or not? Who is she really going to pick? Is Jack jealous of Sawyer and therefore didn't mention his name? TPTB want us to be asking and discussing all these questions during the hiatus.
My problem is that if Jack would have said "Kate you and Sawyer run" this would have showed that Jack had conceded, case closed and let the Skating begin.
Actually it wouldn't. We don't know what Jack's full plan is. Jack may also intend to try to get out alive himself. Also, that Sawyer and Kate have gone the whole way doesn't mean that Jack has lost the game, only that he's behind at the moment. (There's two or three years, or even more, of story yet to tell and I wouldn't be surprised to see the love triangle appear again.)
However, Jack did not say that he only mentioned Kate and then Kate replied I can't leave without you. I think TPTB wanted to create more ambiguity around the love triangle. Is is solved or not? Who is she really going to pick? Is Jack jealous of Sawyer and therefore didn't mention his name? TPTB want us to be asking and discussing all these questions during the hiatus.
Yes ... and unfortunately the writers were a little clumsy in doing this: Jack doesn't mention Sawyer and Kate doesn't mention Sawyer either ... nor mention that they are all on another smaller island with no obvious way of safely getting off it. All the Losties have trouble in communicating vital information while at the same time nattering on about non-vital information.
LightSide/DarkSide
11-10-06, 12:08 AM
Yes ... and unfortunately the writers were a little clumsy in doing this: Jack doesn't mention Sawyer and Kate doesn't mention Sawyer either ... nor mention that they are all on another smaller island with no obvious way of safely getting off it. All the Losties have trouble in communicating vital information while at the same time nattering on about non-vital information.
Sheesh! Thay have to leave some dialog for episode 7. :rolleyez:
Enoch Root
11-10-06, 12:19 AM
Just one curious thing, if Julliet said there were others who wouldn't mind a change in leadership, who and where are they? I can only think of Danielle's daughter and that kid who was in a cage.. yeah, they would make a great leadership team.. If that were really the case, wouldn't people be a little more apathetic about their fearless leader's death?
Maybe the only one who wants a change is Juliett? And I'm sure she's going to see that Ben never makes it. Woe to Jack, Kate and Sawyer when that happens..I think she is far more demented than Ben.
However, we also have to move beyond this story line, it's dragged on way too long, but I think they will be stuck with the others for a while longer.
ColdHearted
11-10-06, 12:28 AM
Well jack did save sawyer inadvertantly. Sawyer had a gun to his head.
IMLOSTRU?
11-10-06, 01:16 AM
Jack is over Kate people! He is still in love with his ex wife. Why do you think in the conversation with Julie he was so interested to hear how she was. He wants off this island now and doesn't give a flip about anyone else.
LightSide/DarkSide
11-10-06, 02:15 AM
If that's true then why didn't he just do the surgery? Instead he's risking the wrath of the others by threatening to let Ben bleed to death in an attempt to give Kate and Sawyer a chance to run.
Run? Where, pray tell, are they going to run to? Even if they manage to get off Alcatraz and back to the main island, then what? Is there a Green Zone some where on the island I am not aware of ? A safe haven for Losties? The "Others" have many weapons in their arsenal to handle these types of situations. There is video surveillance, the eye patch guy, Smoky, just to name a few. What do the Losties have? Sayid, who is acting lately like he has rabies, Locke and .............! So if you were a betting person whom would you back?
Anothe thought that I have.
After Jack saw Kate and Sawyer on the monitors and Ben came in, why did Jack not simply say "I will do the surgery if you let Kate and Sawyer go". There would be no need for Jack's half-baked plan.
Dharma For One
11-10-06, 04:19 AM
After Jack saw Kate and Sawyer on the monitors and Ben came in, why did Jack not simply say "I will do the surgery if you let Kate and Sawyer go". There would be no need for Jack's half-baked plan.
Whooa. That makes too much sense. What a downer. :drinky:
lizarduckmonkey
11-10-06, 06:05 AM
Maybe he has other motives as well. Like, finding out which of the Others are loyal to Ben, to determine whether Juliet is playing him or not. Is the plan fully baked now for you, C_Lost? :p
Unlocke Locke
11-10-06, 07:12 AM
Jack is over Kate people! He is still in love with his ex wife. Why do you think in the conversation with Julie he was so interested to hear how she was. He wants off this island now and doesn't give a flip about anyone else.
I think you're right about this, but I also think that he really wants off now because there is nothing there to keep him. In his eyes, Kate is with Sawyer.....he wants to go back home.
LightSide/DarkSide
11-10-06, 08:48 AM
Anothe thought that I have.
After Jack saw Kate and Sawyer on the monitors and Ben came in, why did Jack not simply say "I will do the surgery if you let Kate and Sawyer go". There would be no need for Jack's half-baked plan.
Because Ben could say in return, "No, do the surgery and we won't kill Kate and Sawyer." Or something to that effect. Until Jack cut that hole in Ben's kidney he had no leverage with which to help his friends.
As for Kate and Sawyer having nowhere to run, well I guess all of the losties are screwed then eh mickyd? Those others sure are a force to be reckoned with after all. I mean Sun killed one and got away free and clear. Sawyer took on 5 or 6 at once bare handed and was winning til Juliet grabbed Kate. Eko killed a couple with a rock... really tough customers those others are. :p
.
As for Kate and Sawyer having nowhere to run, well I guess all of the losties are screwed then eh mickyd? Those others sure are a force to be reckoned with after all. I mean Sun killed one and got away free and clear. Sawyer took on 5 or 6 at once bare handed and was winning til Juliet grabbed Kate. Eko killed a couple with a rock... really tough customers those others are. :p
Yes, I'd say the losties are screwed at this point. They lost their only asset, the sailboat through incompetence, the "others" know where they live and how many there are and every major confrontation they have had with the "others", they got their tail beat. Now maybe you know something I don't know, but on paper the losties are a decided under dog.
beadbabe
02-04-07, 12:49 AM
any one else confused with watching lost ?
wish I were a Lostie
02-05-07, 04:12 AM
the hiatus really has me screwed up, frankly. I can't keep it all straight ... heck, I had a hard enough time when I was watching it every week!
... back to your regularly scheduled thread conversation...
I'm not convinced he believed Kate would automatically take sawyer with him. I think he still sees Kate as semi-helpless (she does seem to keep getting caught, for pete's sake!) and that Sawyer, no matter what, would take care of himself. He thinks she needs protecting ... sweet of him, eh?
:vomit:
GrahamK
02-05-07, 12:20 PM
Having re-read the transcript there is nothing whatsoever to suggest that Jack didn't intend to free both Kate and Sawyer.
He knew they were being held in the same place - he'd seen the monitor. He knew they had developed a 'close' relationship. It is logical, therefore, that the word 'you' as used in the phrase "you have about an hour headstart before they come after you" was plural.
Basically, if I knew there was a bomb in my house I would phone my wife and say "You have to get out - there's a bomb in the house!". I wouldn't bother adding, "Oh, and honey, try to remember and take the kids too..." It would be redundant.
Jack speaks specifically to Kate because he knows he can tell her about the story only they know; which becomes a kind of password between them to ensure he can trust any subsequent communication.
If the writers had sought to imply that Jack wanted Kate to abandon Sawyer, they'd have had him say something like "on your own you'll have a chance to escape."
Hodgepodge
02-05-07, 05:20 PM
Thanks for bumping this thread guys. I'm going to move it to the new Character Interactions (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=121) forum. Please follow the link and continue the discussion there.
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