Locke and Boone and hormones [Archive]

maxpublic

10-21-04, 05:46 AM

I find it rather amusing that there are people who fawn over Boone because the actor is such a pretty boy, yet the character is so very much a Darwin award waiting to happen. I can't imagine that a woman with half a brain would go anywhere near Boone on that island, after all the idiotic crap he's pulled. Of everyone there he's the most likely to get someone killed - and did, in a roundabout way in episode 5, by forcing Jack to make a choice between Mr. Testosterone and a drowning woman.

Yet these same folks say "ooooh, Locke is creepy!" despite the fact that Locke has done absolutely nothing but be helpful. In fact, more helpful than anyone else barring Jack. I've come to the conclusion that the reason we get this disparity is precisely because Boone makes women weak in the knees (and apparently addles their brains in the process) while Locke is a rather plain-looking 'geezer'.

You'll notice that while some of our lasses have no trouble defending that moron Boone while vilifying our good-hearted Locke, not a single one of the men has come to Shannon's rescue despite her undisputed hot-ness. It seems that contrary to the widespread stereotype of men thinking only with their smaller head, it appears that the WOMEN on this board are more likely to fall into that trap, hormones washing away all traces of rational thought.

All you Boone-loving ladies should think long and hard on who you'd want to have as a 'partner' on the island: Boone the Buffoon, or Locke the Wise?

Max

Baron X

10-21-04, 06:08 AM

Well at the risk of repeating myself Boone is an Idiot. Yes the women seem to be very forgiving of Boone and Sawyer too. They keep assigning some here to fore unseen hidden depth to the characters based solely upon facial features.

Excellent point that none of us guys have defended Shannon, do I find her attractive? Yes. Could her looks entice me to spend and entire weekend with her? Not with her 86 IQ and her top 10 favorite people being 1. Shannon 2. Shannon 3. Shannon 4. Shannon 5. Shannon..................

JacksGirlfriend

10-21-04, 10:01 AM

Gee - do I get to be the first woman to answer this - how poetic.

First, I don't find Boone hot but I do understand his appeal in today's marketplace. He's very pretty; a non-threatening male option between "boy" and "man". Things have changed a great deal since I was a girl. I dated boys my own age; hadn't a clue about sexual issues and fantasies were mainly wrapped around a solid idea of being married to a steady man with a good job who would give me children. I had no idea what I was supposed to do with this guy once I got him. I used to throw my Ken doll under the bed when I played because I didn't know what Barbie should do with him other than feed him dinner. Today's girls seem to know exactly what Barbie should do and sometimes that's a scary thought.

So they pick a candidate to use in their fantasy lives. Boone (and Ian, the actor) fits the bill perfectly. He's rather like the boys they know; not quite like the men they see around them. He is a "stop over point" between fantasy and reality. Eventually these girls will grow up and if men like Boone don't grow too, they'll find themselves left behind.

As far as the character goes, this is a young man that has never been tested. His life has probably been easy compared to some and so far he may have succeeded at most everything he's done. He's about to find out he isn't perfect and that's a very frightening thing. So far he's failed to live up to his own expectations and that's often harder than living up to someone else's.

To be fair though he's only acted in support of the group and has not as yet done anything selfish. He's protective of his sister and Claire; has shown concern for Rose; has searched through luggage looking for things they need; and has been following Jack around like a puppy, clearly in need of a leadership mentor (even tried to hold Jack's position concerning the water while Jack was chasing the rabbit). He wants to learn. He wants to do the right thing. But he doesn't know how because it's obvious he's never had a role model. He does now. He has several good ones.

A word about Sawyer: My lust for Sawyer has gone over the top on this board primarily because it's fun. Josh is hot and older - I have a personal cut-off point for men that might be "do-able". Sawyer is definitely a man, not a boy, but still has that confident boyish charm that is positively devastating. (Sorry, guys, it's true). His humor is particularly appealing. But inside this seemingly perfect exterior lies an interior we know very little about. I suspect he will surprise us, but a character like Sawyer, because he is an unknown element, might be intimidating to a younger woman. I've been dealing with men a long time now though and I see potential. Enough of Sawyer - I just wanted to bring him into the conversation because I like him. (Don't need to bring in Jack - I think the majority of us like Jack.)

Locke is an everyman. Not hot; not unattractive. I personally find Terry O'Quinn extremely interesting with a natural sex appeal. Both the actor and the character have a confidence in their approach and a man who knows and understands himself is very appealing. I haven't found Locke creepy, although he can often get a creepy look on his face since his motives have often been suspect. From what I've seen he's an asset to the community and barring his incident with Helen, probably would be a caring mate. But to the majority of the people on this board (probably under 40), Locke is old - something they will be some day but won't think about now. He's their father, their grandfather and therefore could not possibly be within their hormonal scope. He's in mine though and definitely in a "real world" situation, a man I would gravitate toward.

As far as hormones go, you guys don't have to stick up for Shannon because you have Kate to focus on - beautiful, bright and sexy. But none of you are giving Shannon any kind of slack whatever. I have done nothing but defend her in almost every conversation. I see a young woman that has never had to be anything other than be the vapid, demanding girl she appears to be. That doesn't mean that's who she is. You see, I also understand young girls - having been one myself. If they give Shannon a test of strength, you might be surprised what happens.

Sometimes who will consider "hot" is a reflection of who we are and what kind of life we've led. It's not raging hormones - it's experimentation and fantasy or knowledge and experience. It's learning to find yourself and deciding who will complement you best as you grow. And over time, things change. These girls who pine for Boone now will be looking at Locke with different eyes in 20 years. I can guarantee it.

JacksGirl (had to fix typos - hate them)

LostXphile

10-21-04, 10:55 AM

another non-male chiming in here...

You may be a bit presumptuous in calling out the defenders of Boone. How is it you're so sure it's only women overcome by their throbbing hormones that are defending him? I'm a female yet I think Boone is an immature doofus. I find Locke to be a little creepy but he's starting to grow on me. Sawyer is an ass. And Jack has issues that make me want to run in the other direction. The male characters I like the most so far are Hurley, Charlie, & Michael; the not-so-hot guys on the island.

I don't know if the purpose of this post was to stir up trouble but the attitude behind this post is a bit insulting to the female viewers. Why not save the insults for the characters of the show instead of the posters on this board?

angry may queen

10-21-04, 11:21 AM

I am female and I think Boone is a moron.

And for some reason, I actually think Locke is a fairly attractive man, albeit a little peculiar...

Frogs Taste Nasty

10-21-04, 02:28 PM

Heck, I'm male and I think Locke is hot.

Of course, he has lots of sharp.. shiney.. knives and toys. Heh. Hhah... Heheb Uwhahahaa! Erm, yeah.

Clarie's cute too!

maxpublic

10-21-04, 02:55 PM

Boone IS selfish - he's as selfish as Shannon, in his own way. Just another spoiled little rich brat who's mama should've bitch-slapped some manners into him when she had the chance. He constantly tries to tell his sister what to do, hasn't bothered to master the skills he claims he has, decides to rescue a drowning woman solo without telling anyone about it so that he can be the 'hero', steals the water supply so he can be 'in charge', and secretly takes the groups only gun and clip during the night because he doesn't have the cojones to ask for it openly during his guard duty shift.

Shannon is certainly a little witch and a fool - no doubt about that - but Boone is a DANGEROUS fool. Despite Boone's pretty-boy appearance he and Shannon are peas in a pod. But whereas Shannon is just annoying (and actually proved useful, during the trip up the mountain) Boone's constant attempts to 'prove' himself have been consistently self-centered and stupid - stupid to the point that someone else died because of him.

The only thing that Boone has going for him is that he has a gorgeous face. So does Shannon, but lo! No man has flocked to Shannon's defense despite the fact that she hasn't done anything to hurt the group, unlike her brother. Men recognize Shannon for what she is and although I'm sure most of us wouldn't mind sleeping with her we realize the price is waaaaay too high for that tumble in the sand.

In comparison, Locke isn't a pretty boy but every single thing he's done has been for the good of the survivors. Not only that, but in both ep 3 and ep 5 he's proven to be both competent and a nice guy! He hasn't tried to usurp Jacks authority (even when Jack doesn't want it), doesn't attempt to tell the group what to do or to give anyone orders, puts his own life at risk to bring everyone food and water, retrieves Walt's dog for him and lets the father take credit for it, and saves both Jack's life and his sanity.

So why defend Boone and vilify Locke? Why defend Boone and turn on Shannon, for that matter? Boone got someone killed; the worst thing Shannon has done was hurt Charlie's feelings.

Max

cccourt

10-21-04, 03:18 PM

Jack's girlfriend has said it all!

I will add this, on her behalf: Sawyer READS. That makes him appealing right there.

Boone is young. Youth is always forgiven.

Due to the target age group of the show itself, the group on this board are young. THose of us who are, ahum, older...can see beyond the superficial.

Bottom line: I can't believe no one has suggested Sayid as the hunk. Cause...he is!!
ccc:hat

lostinasheville

10-21-04, 03:25 PM

"I used to throw my Ken doll under the bed when I played because I didn't know what Barbie should do with him other than feed him dinner."

I love this, JG! I never knew what Barbie should do with Ken either. My Barbie was always breaking up with Ken, which may help explain why I'm 38 and single.

I don't really get the attraction of Boone- he actually looks a little wierd to me. Sawyer is way hot, but Locke is so intriguing that he grows more attractive each ep. I tend to be attracted to men that aren't the pretty boy types!

On one of these threads it has been suggested that Sayid is hot. Very exotic, mysterious, with mad skills---

cccourt

10-21-04, 03:30 PM

This belongs on the character boards: BUT....some of you don't go there.

In order to bring Naveen Andrews (Sayid) to light, I must tell you this:
Kip-The English Patient.

ccc:hat

JacksGirlfriend

10-21-04, 03:32 PM

Sayid is becoming more alluring as the weeks pass... there's something in his eyes and when he smiles, he means it. Plus he's mature, responsible and intelligent. I like all those things in a guy.

JacksGirl

azteclady

10-21-04, 03:32 PM

I'm chiming in too, as a female under 40 who has been critical of Boone from the beginning.

Max,
I've posted in several threads about this too. Last night. Right after watching the episode, and I mentioned Boone's taking of the gun and clip during the second part of the pilot, etc. I also mentioned the similar lack of maturity and perspective between Boone and Shannon.

I disagree with the idea that Locke's actions are entirely unselfish. He want's to be important, a hero, someone people trust, the one who 'knows where to look' for water, game, etc. Will he and his book-gleaned knowledge be useful? Heck, yeah! Is he interesting? Definitely!

Sawyer is entertaining. Almost everything out of his mouth is quotable, if not by itself, then in context and/or delivery. Would I want him for my very own? *snort* Would I 'roll in the sand' with him if given a chance? Heck, YEAH!

Of course, I'd also roll with Naveen Andrews, Denzel Washington, William Petersen and many others. I'm fickle, what can I say?

Beto
a bit incensed

Edited because I typed "selfish" instead of "unselfish" - full apologies

Professor Liam

10-21-04, 03:43 PM

I do like the fact that Shannon threw the bug spray back at Sawyer. It shows she does have some morals.

Zambini Stardust

10-21-04, 03:50 PM

Unless I misread, I don't think max was saying Locke was selfish, but I agree that Locke is the real male hero so far. However, I would add several other men to that group. Jack has been the obvious leader, but when was the last time you saw any organization (team, group of people, company, whatever) succeed solely or even mostly because of the leader? It's almost always because of the lieutenants supporting up the leader, no matter how good he/she may be.

Did Jack find the boar (Locke)? Did Jack know where to look for water (Locke), as opposed to almost falling into it by accident? Did Jack find the dog (Locke)? Did Jack fix the transceiver so they could hear the French message (Saed)? Did Jack save several people by shooting the polar bear (Sawyer)? Did Jack take the first step toward putting Mr. FBI out of his mystery - agreed Sawyer screwed it up but the poor soul would probably still be slowly dying if left to Jack. Even Hurley and Charlie are more than carrying their weight - salvaging, helping Claire, going on the transceiver hike, befriending most everyone, fishing, injecting humor into their dire situation.

Seems to me the weakest male characters so far are:
Boone - duh
Michael - desperately trying to be the good father he never was
Korean gentleman - can't remember his name, and I understand the communication issue is a big part of the problem so I cut him some slack, but he's not even trying to be part of the community

As for strong female characters, not many. Claire and Kate, maybe Rose and Sun, but certainly not Shannon, and are their any others of note?

maxpublic

10-21-04, 04:08 PM

Boone is young. Youth is always forgiven.

He's at least 20. It's long past time he grew up.

Boone may be young, but he's an adult. He's been an adult for quite some time. He needs to act like it. And if he can't figure that out for himself, someone needs to take him aside and beat some sense into him before he gets someone else killed.

Max

maxpublic

10-21-04, 04:12 PM

I disagree with the idea that Locke's actions are entirely selfish.

I think I said that Locke's actions were UNselfish. Locke is in his element, and he certainly seems to think he has a mission, but everything he's done has been for the welfare of the group, or people within the group. He's risked his own life, twice now, for their benefit.

Max

azteclady

10-21-04, 04:35 PM

Max,

I corrected the original post - I believe Locke's actions are for his benefit, primarily. He satisfies his craving for respect and recognition. He's the one who "knows" - and who in the island can gainsay him?

Beto

LaFaerie

10-21-04, 04:39 PM

Gonna add my comments mostly because something has always bugged me about Boone (Ian), I just don't know what it is. He annoyed me in Smallville and he annoys me in Lost. Something about him irks me. I get a creepy/barfy sensation everytime he's on screen. It might have something to do with those 2 catapillars crawling across his face where his eyebrows should be. I don't find him attractive at all and I think it might be the not quite a boy, not quite a man quality that was mentioned before. Or it could be I just find him completely fugly. All I know is that he is LEAST attractive member of the cast to me and I cringe whenever I see him.

cinderellabop

10-21-04, 04:43 PM

Add me to the list of females who don't care for Boone. Although he has pretty eyes, I really can't see anything else about the character that is particularly appealing. There are two quotes that remind me very much of Boone:

"There are no perfect people, only perfect intentions." and

"The road to h*ll is paved with good intentions."

Boone means well. He wants to help, he has the right intentions. But he's imperfect. He's young and stupid. He makes the wrong decisions. I fully suspect that he may be one of the first regulars to die... his death would be a changing point for Shannon and would probably force her to grow up, without her brother to take care of her.

Locke, on the other hand, seems to be a good guy. So far, he has proven his worth, and is a very valuable guy to have around. However, I'll admit he still sort of freaks me out... he seems to know more than he should about things, and the fact that he was miraculously healed of his paralysis still has me puzzled. But he's definitely growing on me. Last night's episode helped a lot.

Vicki

10-21-04, 04:44 PM

You guys are a tad harsh :D

I don't dislike anyone on the show and I agree that Locke is a very strong character, but I do like Boone and I completely disagree that he is being selfish whatsoever. He made the wrong decisions, yes, but it was always in his attempt to help other people...how can you expect him to NOT go after the woman in the water? I somewhat doubt he EXPECTED to get caught in the rip tide...what, did you think he would just say, "Let's wait for Jack to wake up and go get her." THAT would be pretty selfish in my opinion; and so he took the responsibility to try and do what was right.

lostinasheville

10-21-04, 04:45 PM

LaFairie hit the nail on the head!

maxpublic

10-21-04, 04:51 PM

how can you expect him to NOT go after the woman in the water?

Vicki, the point is he decided to go after the woman ALONE without attempting to even notify anyone else of the problem, much less trying a team attempt at rescue. He did this ON PURPOSE so that he could be the hero. And what ended up happening? Not only did he nearly get himself killed, but his own selfish stupidity was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the drowning of the woman. Had he taken even 30 seconds to scream his head off and draft two other people - all of whom seemed to be within easy running/shouting distance of the beach - that woman would be rescued, and alive.

For chrissakes, he's a lifeguard! He's supposed to KNOW these things. Even if he weren't a lifeguard common sense is more than enough to substitute.

and so he took the responsibility to try and do what was right.

He decided to play hero instead of do the smart and responsible thing. He killed a woman because the little fool wanted everyone to look up to him.

Max

LaFaerie

10-21-04, 04:54 PM

Boone seems to BE what Jack THINKS he is, a failure. Jack was dealing with his own issues of failure last episode, but Boone has actually been the one failing. True, at least he tries. But, sorry to be harsh, there are somethings that you are just not good at. I am not a doctor because science escapes me. I know this about myself and stick to what I am good at. Seems Boone tries to help and ends up making the situation worse because he's fooled himself into thinking he can do anything. Which is better than Shannon who does nothing. Then Jack tries to be everything to everyone and its killing him with the stress of it. And Locke is trying things he never thought he could do and learning from his mistakes and doing it better the second time. I love this show because the characters are so complex and everyone's different. I guess a scary tropical island is as good a place as any to find out about yourself and enjoy personal growth.

I think I went on some sort of rant .. oh well .. heh.:D

maxpublic

10-21-04, 05:03 PM

and enjoy personal growth.

I'm sure the pilot was thinking the same thing. ;-)

Max

LostBoy

10-21-04, 05:06 PM

I don’t get why Sawyer is so popular. He’s a complete creep! He starts out by accusing Sayid of being a terrorist, then he steals a gun (lucky for him he manages to kill a bear with it), he invites himself on the trek to use the transceiver and goes out of his way to antagonize everyone. He calls just about everyone a derogatory name of some kind (Sayid he calls “Al Jezeera” and “Abdul”, Kate “Freckles”, Hurley “Lardo”, etc). He goes through the bodies grabbing things, not for the community but to hoard for himself and profit from it. It is implied that he’s soliciting Shannon for sex in exchange for some sun block he found… and that’s not even counting the whole episode with the Marshall…

EDIT: hehe, for those of you who saw what was written here before, it was a copy and paste miscue...

kat

10-21-04, 05:10 PM

I think the other women on the board have said it very well. I don't particularly care for Boone. He's someone (along with Shannon) who has been sheltered and never had to do anything for himself. He thinks he's better than Shannon because he *has* tried (i.e. becoming a life guard), but he obviously didn't do as well as he thought. I think this experience on the island is exactly what he needs to make him grow on his own.

Locke is actually my favorite character. If I were stuck on a deserted island, he's who I'd want with me.

As for who's most attractive... I'd have to go with Sayid. ;) Like a previous poster said - he's confident, knowledgeable, and there's just something about his smile.

I wonder what the average age is on this board.

maxpublic

10-21-04, 05:29 PM

I don’t get why Sawyer is so popular. He’s a complete creep!

Aptly put. I'd trust the guy at my back in a fight, and when it comes down to the wire he seems to try to do the right thing, but under normal circumstances he's a real jerk. His bigotry is enough to put me off my feed.

Max

cccourt

10-21-04, 05:56 PM

Time for a reality check: they are actors. They are saying words a writer has told them to say...and saying it the way the director is telling them to say it.

Now then: Let's fast forward to emmy time...next year:

Does anyone here think David Caruso would ever be nominated for an emmy...for swinging his head and hair around...and standing posed for head shots. Angela Lansbury showed more emotion in her head shots in Murder She Wrote.

What I am suggesting here is: these characters have us riled up. They have our juices flowing. I can see Sawyer being nominated. Actually, I can see the show being nominated in the ensemble category. They work every bit as well together as the group did in Sex in the City, The Practice, or The Sopranos.

As you are reeling off your disgust for the characters...that is a good thing...because they are making you believe!!

ccc:hat

Lisa AR

10-21-04, 06:31 PM

He's at least 20. It's long past time he grew up.

As a forty something woman, that line made me laugh out loud. Boone is a boy and it will take a bit more life experience before he becomes a man. Poor Boone has been as grown up as he needed to be in his safe, predictable world. He has been thrown totaly out of his element now so he may grow up a bit faster than he would have back in his manageable world. I think Boone is a good boy with good intentions, he just hasn't learned to think things through to their conclusion yet. Given time, I'm sure grow up soon.

I find Locke very hot. Those eyes and that smile could melt me like butter. I think Sawyer is hot too. He's not the guy I'd take home to meet my mom but I'd roll around with him just for fun.

LostBoy

10-21-04, 06:53 PM

Cccourt, who was in need of a reality check? This entire thread has been about the characters, not the actors. Yes Sawyer is supposed to rile us up and that is probably the intent of the writers, director and actor. I’m just wondering why the opposite seems to be happening then… the character is so popular. One poster said they’d like to have him on their side in a fight… why? He’d ditch you as soon as things got hairy. Another post in another thread expressed sympathy for him after his “most hated” comment. Oh poor guy, right. Of course it might help if he didn’t spend all his time antagonizing people…

cccourt

10-21-04, 06:57 PM

LostBoy: I stand corrected. I continue to believe if they can rile us up like this their acting will be rewarded.

Steve580

10-21-04, 07:44 PM

Vicki, the point is he decided to go after the woman ALONE without attempting to even notify anyone else of the problem, much less trying a team attempt at rescue. He did this ON PURPOSE so that he could be the hero. And what ended up happening? Not only did he nearly get himself killed, but his own selfish stupidity was DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the drowning of the woman. Had he taken even 30 seconds to scream his head off and draft two other people - all of whom seemed to be within easy running/shouting distance of the beach - that woman would be rescued, and alive.
Uh...didn't Jack do the exact same thing, though? He went into the water alone, so that he could be the hero. As for being directly responsible...I think Boone is one of only two people who are *not* in any way responsible for her death (him and Jack).

Swimming into the deep ocean water to rescue someone's life is pretty courageous, in my book. I respect Boone a lot more for doing that. And besides, while you don't hear him say it, he later tells Jack that he had been telling him to leave him and rescue the woman.
-Steve

Zambini Stardust

10-21-04, 08:36 PM

I know everyone think's he's a jerk, and he is. But, with the exception of being bigoted against Sayid, he isn't actually doing anything to hurt anyone. I'm not sure he was actually trying to sell the sunblock (for cash or sex); rather he was just playing his usual mind game and enjoying it more than usual because his target didn't even have a mind :rollin

I'd take Sawyer, Sayid, Locke, and Hurley (maybe even Charlie) any day over the rest of the men, with the possible exception of Jack because he at least knows first aid. Sawyer, Sayid, and Locke are tough, smart, and dependable. Hurley has a huge heart (he'd better for that body) and wouldn't hurt anyone, and Charlie can always be counted on for a laugh.

maxpublic

10-21-04, 10:07 PM

Boone is a boy and it will take a bit more life experience before he becomes a man.

For most of human history the average lifespan was about 35 years of age. And now suddenly people in their 20's are still children? Simply because better diet and medical care have managed to put an end to premature aging? I don't buy it.

I grew up in farm country. Kids during my childhood acted very much like kids, yet they were expected to saddle adult responsibility early on, and did quite well. You can still see the same thing today in Amish and Mennonite communities, where preteens are entrusted with responsibilities I'd be leery of giving to many of the adults I've run into of late.

If people in their 20's - or even their teens, I'm not going to bother being pc here - are summarily declared children and proclaimed to be incapable of shouldering appropriate responsibilities because they haven't yet hit 30, then this is a sign of sickness in our society. Human technology has changed; human beings have not. We're still the same people we were 50,000 years ago, no matter how we might pretend otherwise. While we're definitely more knowledgeable than our ancestors, we're hardly any wiser. Less so, if we willfully and blindly ignore basic biology simply because we're rich enough to shoulder the consequences.

Boone is not a kid. He's an adult. That's a simple fact. If he doesn't ACT like an adult, then unless it's a defect of character it's either the fault of his parents, of a society which up and decided to arbitrarily extend the definition of childhood for no good reason, or both.

I have no tolerance for Boone - or anyone in the real world, for that matter - acting like a brat at the age of 20. I grew up in a world where that sort of behavior would never have been permitted. I see no need to tolerate it now, despite what my society might say on the matter. Human beings have been treated as adults from the teenage years on for nearly all of human history and pre-history, and I don't see any rhyme or reason in changing that.

One poster said they’d like to have him on their side in a fight… why? He’d ditch you as soon as things got hairy.

No, he wouldn't. He proved that in the stand-off with the polar bear. He could've run, and devil take the hindmost, saving his own skin AND the bullets in his gun. But he didn't. He faced down one of the largest carnivores on Earth with a *pistol*, and not a particularly powerful one at that. Everyone else ran, but Sawyer fought - even though it was pretty bloody foolish to do so. And he nearly got his ass eaten for his heroism.

So yeah, I'd trust Sawyer not to run and sacrifice me to the wolves. So far he's proven that he's the only one that *won't* run. In a fight give me Sawyer any day of the week.

Max

azteclady

10-21-04, 10:40 PM

Max, you said:
"So yeah, I'd trust Sawyer not to run and sacrifice me to the wolves. So far he's proven that he's the only one that *won't* run. In a fight give me Sawyer any day of the week."

I don't presume to speak for anyone else, but that is one of the reasons I like Sawyer. He didn't know what was coming at him, nor did he know whether the gun he had was enough to kill it, yet he stood his ground while the others ran.

A bit over-dramatic? You betcha! Effective, from the standpoint of character development? 100%

Do I consider him any less of a jerk because of that incident? Nope. He goes out of his way to antagonize others.

Do I have to like him to trust him in a life or death situation? Nope. But then, that would be irrelevant in that situation.

And of course, there are those dimples of his...

Beto

dsera

10-21-04, 11:24 PM

Max Max Max.... tsk tsk. What a lovely post to come home to read. I can assume I'm one of the "girls" you're referring to here. Well let me give you a little insight.

First of all, there is no reason for you to come to this board where everyone is having fun and getting along and attempt to stir up trouble. Seeing it wasn't getting you anywhere in the Boone board, you decided to just come on out to the General board and start again. It's people like you that make forums a miserable place for people to be. I don't like to come home and in an attempt at reading fun threads, see this. I can't imagine anyone else does either. I wish the moderator would have deleted it before everyone started replying.

Second, I am not a child or a girly or some immature female or whatever other slanderous digs you declared us all. I am personally not attracted to Boone either. I find his character immature and a little clueless. But I'm used to seeing all the "pretty boys" getting drooled all over on TV, magazines and on the internet, which is why I said I was shocked that more people found Dom more so. My entire posting on his board was meant to be taken in jest. You do know what that means, right? I can explain it if you need me to.

Third, What do you care how many people find him or Sawyer or anyone else for that matter attractive? Do you think we give a rat's ass which of the girls you guys think is hot? That's not what this show is about for me. I don't think most of us are watching the show because so and so is hot. I watch the show for the mystery, drama and unique storyline.

With that being said, I'll not explain myself to you anymore and if you feel the need to continue insulting the members of this forum, you might find yourself talking to just yourself. I know for me, this is the last time I'll enter into a discussion with you because you so obviously are more interested in figuring out the minds of women and getting under their skin than you are figuring out the show like the rest of us.

Oh and by the way, sweetheart, the *pistol* that Sawyer used was perfectly capable of killing that bear. Check the thread in the Sawyer board about him and the gun. Maybe you should do a little research before you run off at the mouth.

Toodles.

JacksGirlfriend

10-22-04, 12:22 AM

Yes, he definately has the dimples... and the smile to go with them. And that look he gets in his eyes... well, it would be hard to resist that look. A man like Sawyer though needs a woman as feisty as he is because there's nothing like a little banter to get things going.

Give me a brave man with a sexy smile and a spark in his eyes and I'm all his.

JacksGirl

dsera

10-22-04, 12:38 AM

I agree JG. That look. Yeah Josh has that look down. I can't wait to see how his character developes!

feenie1010

10-22-04, 12:50 AM

Uh...didn't Jack do the exact same thing, though? He went into the water alone, so that he could be the hero. As for being directly responsible...I think Boone is one of only two people who are *not* in any way responsible for her death (him and Jack).

Well, Jack only went out there because Charlie said he doesn't swim and no one else was going out. AND Jack didn't know about the other drowning victim, just Boone. It could be possible that no one knew of the second drowning victim because Boone didn't tell anyone, maybe they just thought he got caught in a riptide and if you aren't a strong swimmer (and even if you are) you can get caught up in them and be taken.

Swimming into the deep ocean water to rescue someone's life is pretty courageous, in my book. I respect Boone a lot more for doing that. And besides, while you don't hear him say it, he later tells Jack that he had been telling him to leave him and rescue the woman.

It's admirable yes but not very smart. He didn't know how strong the tide was, no one there did until that moment. As for telling Jack to leave him and get the woman, that again is not a smart move. He is now placing the blame of her death on Jack's part, pretty strong stuff considering Boone didn't do much better AND it was no one's fault at all, she just got caught up in the rip tide. And again, Jack's medical experience falls into place, he might have used his triage knowledge. In that you, basically sort out the victims and priortize them according to who is best suited to survive, he did that. If Jack went with Boone's wishes, there is a chance that not only the woman would have died but Boone as well, because it's clear he was well under (Jack had to dive twice to find him) with the possiblity of Jack being caught up in the riptide and thus making the new community leaderless and without any medical support.

railwaymadness

10-22-04, 01:03 AM

Steve580, I'm in complete agreement with you. Well said.

To quote from Max a bit:
"I have no tolerance for Boone - or anyone in the real world, for that matter - acting like a brat at the age of 20. I grew up in a world where that sort of behavior would never have been permitted."

Isn't one of the interesting things about this show the fact that the people on the island are from different cultures, different "worlds", if you will? We're watching a show which focuses on a group of people from different backgrounds trying to figure out how to get along and you come right out saying "I have no tolerance for [anyone who was not raised in my culture]".

The US (I assume you're from the US if you're watching) is a very big country with a whole lot of different cultures. Heck, sometimes each family seems to create its own culture here. Not everyone is required or even allowed to take on responsibility early in life. Some may never have the opportunity to take on real responsibility. Are people likely to screw it up a lot during their first few forays into this arena? I think they are. And they shouldn't be let off scot-free. Consequences are a part of responsibility. But a few failures don't make Boone a worthless human being. Age alone is not a very accurate measure of maturity or life experience.

But Locke rocks my socks.

Myzty

10-22-04, 04:49 AM

Whats with the stereotyping? Have you been taking lessons from Sawyer? :eek

Sure, Boone is hot, doesn't mean I'll defend his stupidity?

lostinasheville

10-22-04, 12:46 PM

I used to live in arctic Alaska, and I remember a saying that the natives (eskimos) had about polar bears: if a polar bear finds you and all you have is a pistol, use it on yourself because all it will do is piss off the bear!

Stu1961

10-22-04, 01:21 PM

Boone is the "anti-Jack". Where Jack is capable (though he's been beaten down into believing he isn't) he doesn't want the mantle of leadership. Boone desires it yet does NOT "have what it takes". I can't wait to find out what type of business he ran. He must have been appointed to some figurehead-type position of a family owned business. (I'm sure it could have been run more effectively by a monkey flinging it's own feces.)

Deep down (or maybe not that deep - just not outwardly expressed) I think Boone realizes his inadequacies - hence the outburst/guilt over his failure to save the drowning woman and Jack having to save him.

Favorite character: Locke. He's gotten his lucky break (however it was acquired) and is making the most of it. I'm slowly starting to feel as though Sawyer may be the anti-Locke. Selfless vs selfish(?).

Leafy

10-22-04, 01:40 PM

Locke is one of the coolest characters I've seen on TV in a long time. Boone and Sawyer are just kids in comparison - They may grow up mentally and do something useful, but Locke is the one who I think is going to save them all somehow. Boone is a doofus, as somebody pointed out, but at least he makes an effort, no matter how clumsy or misguided it is.

boobtuber

10-22-04, 02:01 PM

Amen, amen Leafy. You are so right. Locke is such a well-written, well-developped-already, fascinating, unique character and I love his character. I think that it's almost his destiny (speaking of Locke) to save them because all his life he was told "he couldn't" and finally, in this new life of his, he is literally "enabled" rather than "disabled" as he was both literally and figuratively in his past life, so now he can save them!

Steve580

10-22-04, 02:36 PM

Well, Jack only went out there because Charlie said he doesn't swim and no one else was going out. AND Jack didn't know about the other drowning victim, just Boone.
What you're saying is rather paradoxical, don't you think? I mean, it's okay for Jack to go out alone because no one else was around (even though you don't know whether or not that's true), but not okay for Boone, because when he went out, there were other people around (even though you don't know whether or not that's true).

It seems like you're judging their actions based solely on the result of their actions, which is a more than a little unfair.
-Steve

dsera

10-22-04, 02:45 PM

I was getting the same exact feeling as all of you regarding Locke but the more I hear everyone loving him and thinking him some kind savior for everyone, the more I'm starting to think that JJ is going to pull a fast one on us and end up making Locke the bad guy. Just my thoughts!

maxpublic

10-22-04, 06:10 PM

First of all, there is no reason for you to come to this board where everyone is having fun and getting along and attempt to stir up trouble.

Stirring up trouble? How so? By saying that Boone is an idiot? I think that's pretty much a matter of fact supported by the evidence, although I'm perfectly willing to admit that my tolerance for such blatant stupidity is pretty low and therefore might color my view of him. Stupidity that kills doesn't earn any brownie points with me.

Seeing it wasn't getting you anywhere in the Boone board, you decided to just come on out to the General board and start again.

I posted my comments in the Boone area *after* I started this thread. Take a look at the time stamps.

It's people like you that make forums a miserable place for people to be.

If you don't like my opinion on Boone, then don't read it. It's that simple. My comments can only make you "miserable" if you happen to disagree with them, and don't like contrary opinions. If that's what's bothering you, then you're in for a very long period of misery since I'm not very sheep-like, nor, as you may have noticed, pc.

Just because you don't happen to agree with me doesn't make me Enemy Number One of every person on this forum. Last I checked I don't remember anyone electing you forum arbiter of proper etiquette and morals, so you're only speaking for yourself here. Or if they did there must have been some seriously messed-up ballots, and a whole lot of hanging chads.

Second, I am not a child or a girly or some immature female or whatever other slanderous digs you declared us all.

Please point out the post where I said this. Oh, silly me - you can't! You just made this up out of whole cloth. Reading comprehension has, I see, escaped you. And people wonder why I'm so harshly critical of the public school system.

Third, What do you care how many people find him or Sawyer or anyone else for that matter attractive?

I don't. That wasn't the point, of any of it. Shannon is also quite the hottie, but you don't see anyone making excuses for her behavior. Oddly enough, you DO see people making excuses for Boone. And the only reason I can see for doing so, and not for Shannon, while at the same time going on about how "creepy" Locke is DESPITE all the good that he's done, is that Boone is a man, and cute. Shannon is not a man. Locke is a man, but he isn't cute, at least by the standards of most people (although I think Terry O'Quinn is rather distinguished and leader-like, but perhaps that's just me).

I'll not explain myself to you anymore and if you feel the need to continue insulting the members of this forum

I didn't insult anyone. I pointed out an interesting - and very amusing - behavior. Boone gets special treatment because he makes some folks go weak in the knees. What's even funnier is that despite the fact that this stereotype is so often applied to men, none of the men on this forum have exhibited this behavior - only some of the women! That IS amusing, whether you think it is or not. It also happens to be a fact, although one you obviously don't like having someone as low and as despicable as myself pointing out. I'm only surprised that you didn't come right out and declare me a mysogynist, along with being a tool of the Dark One come to destroy All That Is Good And Right(TM).

Feel free to do so. Being a tool of the Dark One has certainly got to be better than just being a tool.

Oh and by the way, sweetheart, the *pistol* that Sawyer used was perfectly capable of killing that bear. Maybe you should do a little research before you run off at the mouth.

I know a fair bit about weaponry. A pistol isn't the sort of weapon you take polar bear hunting. Emptying the clip into a polar bear might kill it over time, as it bled out from multiple wounds, but the most likely outcome is that you'll end up bear sh!t before that happens. An immediate kill requires a lucky shot with anything less than a high-power hunting rifle.

The only pistol I can think of, off the top of my head, that has a decent chance of killing a polar bear is the .50 Desert Eagle, or the 500 S&W Magnum chambering .50 rounds - and even then you'd have to be very close to the bear, and get a good head or heart shot.

As for 'research', well, at one time I used to be an Olympic-class shot. I used rifles ranging from little .22 caliber target rifles to M16A2's to M60 machine guns (not a rifle, I know, but fun to play with). My knowledge of pistols is mostly second-hand (reading, rather than shooting), but I'd hazard that it's pretty accurate given that it matches my practical experience with various rifles. Do you think this might be enough to qualify me to "run off at the mouth"?

I know for me, this is the last time I'll enter into a discussion with you because you so obviously are more interested in figuring out the minds of women and getting under their skin than you are figuring out the show like the rest of us.

I don't know what post it is that you were reading, but it surely wasn't the one I wrote. If you want a fight of some sort simply because you can't stand a difference of opinion, or don't find the reversed application of a stereotype funny, then go have a hissy fit with someone else.

You might think that your attempt at scathing disparagement was the ultimate in wit, but it just came off as tight-assed arrogance. If you're going to personally slam me, especially for things that I haven't written but that you apparently fervently wish that everyone else BELIEVES that I've written, then at least try to be funny next time. It would be more interesting to read if you could at least make me chuckle from time to time.

Max

lostinasheville

10-22-04, 07:11 PM

"I know a fair bit about weaponry. A pistol isn't the sort of weapon you take polar bear hunting. Emptying the clip into a polar bear might kill it over time, as it bled out from multiple wounds, but the most likely outcome is that you'll end up bear sh!t before that happens. An immediate kill requires a lucky shot with anything less than a high-power hunting rifle."

Max- that's what I was trying to say in my earlier post on this thread, but without your knowledge of weaponry. It's absolutely true tho- all you'll do by shooting a polar bear with a pistol, is make the bear more angry! I know of a young man who did this, and the bear actually ate the guy. Well, *most* of him....

-Di

Leafy

10-22-04, 09:23 PM

_____

" the more I hear everyone loving him and thinking him some kind savior for everyone, the more I'm starting to think that JJ is going to pull a fast one on us and end up making Locke the bad guy. "
_____
dsera, in most of the regular boards where people discuss "Lost" on one thread, most of them find Locke, "creepy," "weird," "wish they'd get rid of him," and "no point to the character."

Maybe we have better taste in characters.:p Since there are people who find him interesting, and (dare I say it) attractive, he will probably die, but I hope not too soon. Luv that Locke.;)

Black Dahlia

10-22-04, 11:32 PM

Physically, Boone is so damned attractive that his charisma appeals to not only the ladies but to at least a tiny extent the heterosexual males and differently-oriented females. Ian Somerholder is just that darn lucky to possess such a timeless beauty/handsomeness.

Nonetheless, his personality detracts from this charisma across the board.

Locke, on the other hand, possesses I suppose decent-enough physical looks, but a personality-driven charisma that is almost beyond reproach. His whole persona exemplifies the "women want to be with him, men want to be him" phenomenon that makes everyone, regardless of gender or sexual orientation, admire him in an almost messiah-like way.

dsera

10-22-04, 11:49 PM

Okay this gun/bear thing was all started by me saying it was possible but by all means, I would never consider it practical. I would never want to be in the situation to hope the pistol did the job before the bear reached my person. I would never for a second consider a pistol a choice weapon to use against anything that large or that fast....but it *could* work and has. =)

Read up!

www.adn.com/front/story/5591480p-5522882c.html (http://www.adn.com/front/story/5591480p-5522882c.html)

Max- that's what I was trying to say in my earlier post on this thread, but without your knowledge of weaponry. It's absolutely true tho- all you'll do by shooting a polar bear with a pistol, is make the bear more angry! I know of a young man who did this, and the bear actually ate the guy. Well, *most* of him....

dsera

10-22-04, 11:53 PM

Yeah until lately I've noticed this but more and more are coming around to thinking he's the good guy.......and don't get me wrong. I hope he is. Either way, I'm sure he'll put on a helluva show!

dsera, in most of the regular boards where people discuss "Lost" on one thread, most of them find Locke, "creepy," "weird," "wish they'd get rid of him," and "no point to the character."

JY Yang

10-23-04, 11:37 AM

For most of human history the average lifespan was about 35 years of age. And now suddenly people in their 20's are still children? Simply because better diet and medical care have managed to put an end to premature aging? I don't buy it....If people in their 20's - or even their teens, I'm not going to bother being pc here - are summarily declared children and proclaimed to be incapable of shouldering appropriate responsibilities because they haven't yet hit 30, then this is a sign of sickness in our society. Human technology has changed; human beings have not.

Max, I'm gonna have to completely disagree with your post here. You're mixing up physiology with psychology. Human beings are almost genetically identical to human beings 4,000 years ago--yes, I'll give you that. But physiology and genetics are irrelevant-- we're talking about society here. And human society has changed. The examples you've given--farms, Amish communities--are all relatively simple, agrarian constructs. The lives led by farmers and Amish are quite strikingly dissimilar to those led by urbanites, I should think. Their responsibilities, priorities and goals would be different. I would entrust a 20-year-old with the control of a tractor, no problem. Would I entrust the same 20-year-old with the presidency of the US of A? Hell NO. The demands of rural and urban societies on us are quite, quite different.

This is why Lost is such a fascinating--albeit cliched--concept. What you do is basically take a bunch of these sheltered urbanites and throw them into the wilderness, no help, no nothing, and see how they adapt themselves to the situation. Obviously, the backgrounds of these people are going to matter in how they handle the situation, and it shows. Look at Sayid-- he's a military man and used to hardships. What does he do? He builds and organizes the fires in the pilot. He fixes the transceiver and figures out the transmissions. Locke-- he has been training, mentally if not physically, for a wilderness experience. He knows what to do in the wild. Jack-- he's a doctor, a surgeon. He has experience in crisis management, and he does that fairly well.

On the other hand, you have Boone and Shannon. You heard what Shannon said in the pilot. They had FIRST CLASS seats. They're obviously affluent enough, and if Shannon is any indication, they were probably pampered as kids to boot. The kind who probably never had to lift a hand to help around the house and whose main worries were whether they were going to pass next semester or whether an outfit made them look fat. Boone's lifeguarding duties may have well been at a cushy indoor pool for all we know. Bearing in mind that they have only been stranded for a week or so, I don't think it's fair to expect them to adapt to wilderness conditions as fast as say, Locke or Sayid.

I know I've wandered off the original subject topic a little, but I just had to raise a little objection. Having said that, I must admit that I do find Boone rather endearing, but in a rather inept sort of way. I like most of the other characters well enough, except maybe with the exception of Jack who somehow positively irritates me. It's a little early on to make decisive statements on the characters, I think. My opinion of them may yet change as the season progresses. :)

Baron X

10-23-04, 01:09 PM

So yeah, I'd trust Sawyer not to run and sacrifice me to the wolves. So far he's proven that he's the only one that *won't* run. In a fight give me Sawyer any day of the week.

He was the only one with a gun. The others had a really, really good reason to run. I would not use that incident to fault the others.

LostXphile

10-23-04, 05:43 PM

What you're saying is rather paradoxical, don't you think? I mean, it's okay for Jack to go out alone because no one else was around (even though you don't know whether or not that's true), but not okay for Boone, because when he went out, there were other people around (even though you don't know whether or not that's true).

For me it's not so much going out alone as much as not letting anyone else know what was happening before he decided to attempt a rescue. It's the secrecy behind Boone's actions that is a problem. It's a pattern of behavior with him that's caused more trouble than done any good. When Jack jumped into the water he didn't have to notify anyone about what he was doing because he knew Charlie knew. It's about safety in numbers; if Boone would have bothered to let anyone else know that someone was in trouble before he attempted a rescue then others could have been at the ready to help when or if he'd gotten into trouble. As it is he might have contributed to extending the length of time the drowning woman was struggling in the ocean perhaps contributing to her death simply because nobody else knew what was going on until Charlie woke up and just happened to notice the danger. Now for the record I think it was pretty stupid of the woman to be swimming in unfamiliar waters without a swim buddy, so I think the woman is ultimately responsible for putting herself in danger in the first place.

And I don't think people's opinion about Boone is based solely on this one incident, at least mine isn't. Boone has been pulling some bone head moves. It's the combination of these bone head moves and the secrecy of his actions that's given me the impression he's an immature young man who's attempts at trying to help isn't always about helping but about trying to impress and prove himself to the group and to himself. In everyday society this wouldn't be so bad but on the island his decisions and actions affect more than himself and it has put lives at risk. Boone's immaturity wouldn't be that much of a problem except that it comes at a price that the other survivors can't afford to be subjected to until he learns to grow up.

Beckers1

10-24-04, 05:45 AM

How do we know that Boone swam out without anyone knowing it? Charlie ran to Jack but he could have called out to Boone first ... Who knows for sure? Personally, I think Boone is young. At 20 years old I was still a kid. Right now I can look back and see how immature I was at that age -- and Boone is the same way. He means well but things just are not working out for him ... He doesn't know as much as he thinks he knows ... but at least he cares which is more than you can say for Shannon.

LostXphile

10-24-04, 10:10 AM

How do we know that Boone swam out without anyone knowing it? Charlie ran to Jack but he could have called out to Boone first ... Who knows for sure?

When Charlie ran up to Jack he said 'someone's out there' a couple times. I would think if he knew Boone was out there attempting a rescue he would have mentioned that. Plus, Charlie said he just woke up and notice what was going on. I don't know about anyone else but to me that means Charlie had no clue what was happening until he woke up and noticed someone struggling in the water, so Boone never told him. And it wasn't until Jack ran into the water did we see several other people start coming up from behind Charlie to see what was going on. Giving us another hint that Boone was attempting a rescue without telling anyone else. Now maybe Boone did tell someone else about the rescue but from the way the show presented it, it certainly gave the impression no one else knew until Charlie alerted Jack.

Personally, I think Boone is young. At 20 years old I was still a kid. Right now I can look back and see how immature I was at that age -- and Boone is the same way. He means well but things just are not working out for him ... He doesn't know as much as he thinks he knows ...

Which in modern American society I could appreciate but, like I said before, they're no longer living in that society, this is survival. His mistakes due to his immaturity are putting lives at risk. And he might mean well but there is an undercurrent of wanting to prove himself which sort of taints his good intentions because that means that some of his actions are more about himself than about helping the others.

but at least he cares which is more than you can say for Shannon.

LOL! That's true. Unfortunately the show has only presented Shannon as a one-dimensional caricature so far and Boone has been given a more 3-dimensional sense to his character which does make him more sympathetic than Shannon.

cccourt

10-24-04, 03:21 PM

I may veer from has actually been stated...because I am not cutting and pasting a bunch of references here. Bear with me.

Let's go back to artistic license here: the pistol is all that was there: it had to kill the bear. Period. What is more unrealistic here? A polar bear in the tropics or a pistol killing it?

Boone and maturity: There are people who can grow up overnight at 16, 17, 18, 19, and yes, even 20. They can accept responsibility for their situations...and be as mature as a 40 year old. What they don't have is life experience in handling themselves as a mature individual. Girls getting pregnant at 16 can accept the responsibility of a baby or even to give up the infant. A 16 year old male (or female) in an accident...for the record we will say automobile accident...can use all knowledge one has to make life saving decisions of others if it calls for it.

The truth is...historically...18 year old males have been fighting wars throughout the world...forever. Are they mature enough to be fighting? Some are. Their testosterone is raging at this age and the outlet is to fight the enemy. The tragedy of society is the fact we send 18 year old to die when they aren't allowed to buy booze or vote. (I know this is changed now..and not true in all countries...but I am speaking generally here.)

Bottom line: we all have the capacity to mature in the light of tragic circumstances. The fact it takes a moment (few days) to accept the reality of the tragedy, step up to the plate, and exhibit that maturity is what is in question here.

Boone is exhibiting maturity in attempting a rescue...what he lacks is ocean rescue experience and "safety in numbers" rule. The truth is he may have gone out swimming with the girl...and she drifted/swam too far...and was in the water by himself ...and couldn't make that split decision: call for help or go after her. Whatever: the writers have to pare the cast down to the 34 (I think that is the number) and it will use all types of mean to do so.

While I love theorizing what Locke means as "beautiful" when we assumed he was looking at "the" creature, or wondering when we are going to get a graphics designer on the board to help us plot the fictional island, thus placing all the sites on the island...nit picking every scene in the shows doesn't seem to be productive. Realizing this forum is a "discussion" board, it is here for us to discuss. When a group is gathered to discuss...guess what...opinions differ. We would be immature to believe 100% of us are going to agree.

Some posters are afraid to share their questions, beliefs, and theories: others aren't. All are "members" of the group. Live and let live. Agree to disagree...and get on with the important mysteries. (At least they are important to ME.) Boone's maturity level isn't.
ccc:hat

JacksGirlfriend

10-24-04, 03:59 PM

Personally I think Boone is older than 20. He stated that he's "run a company". Seems to me he's probably graduated from college with a business degree at least. That would make him at least 22-23 (maybe older if he has some time in the company). But running a company for a silver-spoon baby (if that is indeed what he is) is a little different than for the average person who worked their way up through the ranks.

He's probably a figurehead with an entire group of people under him making his daily decisions. In this case running a company means very little in the scheme of things. He's obviously not used to be challenged about his decisions and has no idea how to handle criticism or even defend his actions. He reacts like a child.

He's still "a kid" as far as his maturity level goes. Whether that is right or wrong as far as society goes is debatable but it's definitely becoming more commonplace. It's hard to grow up when you've never been tested before. Though I see Boone consistently trying to do the right thing (he has a good heart), he doesn't manage to think it through all the way - a definite sign of immaturity. I think though we'll see him grow throughout the season and by the end, his good heart and good intentions might be enough to carry him to the next level. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and give him a little chance to grow before I condemn him entirely. That's the mother in me I think because I know alot of boys like this - and that's exactly what they are - boys. But eventually they all do something that surprises you.

JacksGirl