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DharmaBum01

11-15-06, 05:24 AM

I realize this has been discussed — but just for clarity:

Eko says,

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p272/WadesDad/YouDoNotKnowWhoIAm01.jpg http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p272/WadesDad/YouDoNotKnowWhoIAm02.jpg

"You Do Not Know Who I Am,"
raising his bloody panga knife/machéte to slaughter Emeka...

...and...

"Yemi" says,

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p272/WadesDad/YouSpeakToMeAsIfIWereYourBrother02.jpg

"You Speak To Me As If I Were Your Brother,"
just before Eko's demise.

Similarities?

Eko wasn't ready.

Eko asked for it.

Eko earned it.

Without Dane

11-15-06, 05:26 AM

FoundAddict

11-15-06, 06:08 AM

Are you implying that Eko earned his death because he killed Emeka? Or because Emeka thought Eko was Yemi at the church and Eko killed him, and Eko thought Smokey was Yemi, and Smokey killed him?

Nice dramatic way of posting btw, DharmaBurn

melostmo

11-15-06, 06:56 AM

interesting way of looking @ it DharmaBum01 ... I think I get your point

Without Dane

11-15-06, 06:57 AM

I'm not following the point... anyone care to clarify?

melostmo

11-15-06, 07:41 AM

well he's saying just as Eko says "You Do Not Know Who I Am,"

Smokie also says that... in a different way

I guess, that's what DharmaBum01 means

so, in effect Smokie is saying '"You Do Not Know Who I Am,"

Ted L Nancy

11-15-06, 08:44 AM

Too much work to understand this thread...Enjoy, others.

DharmaBum01

11-15-06, 09:52 AM

Hi, Without Dane, melostmo, FoundAddict, Ted L Nancy, et.al. !

I've been a tad reticent to jump in with a reply... Because I'm very aware that my answer is not the answer — and I'm hoping to stir up dialogue with a succinctly dramatic OP. But confusion was not my intent. Three pictures, two quotes, a few words at the end — didn't seem like "Too much work to understand..." Sorry if the OP was confusing somehow. (I wasn't really implying anything, FoundAddict.)

Since you've asked, My "gut" tells me that the similarity of those two moments feels central to answering some key myster(ies)...

Before I watched The Cost of Living, I was dreading Eko's death (a little). After the show, that perplexing statement by "Yemi" resounded — for me anyway — as a critical piece of Eko's conflict and how it played out. [A piece of] the climax to everything Eko's character brought to the show. AAA expressed this with a look that mixed shock, confusion, dismay, and fury — imho — upon Eko's hearing "Yemi's" words. He'd made a profound mistake.

There are arguably many "meaningful" ways to take what "Yemi" said. A few may be:

I am not real. I'm a Shadow within you that you can't suppress — that you've been driven to confront and hoped to resolve. Even your flashbacks should help you to realize this — and that your situation is hopeless...
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
I am not your brother {so your appeal about how you "did [your] best" with "the life [you were] given" — beginning with murdering to "save" your brother — falls on deaf ears with me}
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
I am God {but your attempts at penance and amending your life have been ludicrous — you're way beyond forgiveness}
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
I am not God {judging you; I am Satan, or whatever...}
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
You are dying already; your life is "flashing in front of your eyes" and there is no such thing as resolution or salvation
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
You fooled yourself big-time by answering that you are ready for this
— — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — — —
etc...

Then, later, I watched the show again via iTunes. At that moment when Eko, dressed in priest's garb, is about to slaughter Emeka — that resounded just as strongly. I did some slo-mo, went back and captured the words, tone, and expressions of Eko vs. Yemi. They seem, as I said, ~chillingly similar. It's tough to convey the tones and gut-feel in a post. I posted screen caps that I hoped would convey the similarity in facial expression: dead eyes, sneer, coldness, seemingly murderous intent, etc.

The words speak to profoundly and tragically mistaken identity in both cases — and to being utterly merciless. My feeling is that Eko's "mistake" was deep and abiding — and goes way beyond his lack of mercy or attempts later to do good in recompense. I sensed that Eko sought understanding, if not forgiveness, at the end — but wasn't about to get either.

The similarities in consequences subsequent to both of these moments = brutal death. As others have expressed (e.g., Homer here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1082403#post1082403)), Eko's behavior throughout his "arc" on the show was hardly as spiritual as his manner implied — he was a self-centered, evil guy — a "pious fraud," as Homer put it — who earned his come-uppance (if there are such things as Judgment, karma, etc.), no matter how we mourn his loss viscerally. If not, then morality is meaningless. I think these two moments from The Cost of Living echo resoundingly with that — as well as the other issues I've named, and more. [Yeah, OK, pardon my pun: Echo of Eko...]

I included the words "wasn't ready," "asked for it," and "earned it" because they hint at all this...

As I suggested in opening this post, I'm very cognizant that there are multiple interpretations that may be meaningful to participants. I'd hoped that, by posting the elements of these scenes, other folks would join in exploring these issues using these climactic moments as a focal point...

I hope that sharing my "take" on these scenes encourages further discussion, not vice-versa...

Tanatie

11-15-06, 10:02 AM

why did the psychic's daughter tell Eko that his brother forgives him and then the havid Yemi says basically that he doesn't?

DharmaBum01

11-15-06, 11:37 AM

why did the psychic's daughter tell Eko that his brother forgives him and then the havid Yemi says basically that he doesn't?

Intriguing question, Tanatie.

Before I take a stab at it, let's clarify who Charlotte Malkin was and specifically what she said to Eko — for the sake of anybody who may not be familiar:

? (E221 (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19304)) was filled with pieces of Eko-flashbacks, as well as mysterious doings on the island. In one flashback, Eko (aka "Father Tunde") was serving in an Australian church, and was assigned by the Monsignor to investigate "a miracle." A young woman allegedly drowned, and came back to life. It turned out that she was Charlotte Malkin — daughter of the "psychic" Richard Malkin who convinced Claire to get on the plane [E110 (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15422), Raised by Another]. When Eko went to the Malkins' home, Richard refused him access to Charlotte and convinced Eko that there was no miracle. And that he should know, because he's a psychic fraud: "I gather intelligence on people and I exploit it. Everyday I meet people looking for a miracle, desperate to find one. But there are none to be had. Not in this world, anyway." Malkin may have sized up Eko pretty well...

At the end of the episode, Charlotte confronted Eko as he was about to board Flight 815. I'll quote the entirety of that section of Spooky's transcript within a "spoiler" tage to "save" space. No need to read it unless you want to get :Booky::
"[We see Eko at airport check-in in Australia.]

AGENT [handing him a board pass]: That's flight 815, leaving from gate 23.

EKO: Thank you.

[Eko turns to see Charlotte Malkin waiting for him.]

EKO: What are you doing here?

CHARLOTTE: I had to see you.

EKO: Look, your father said I shouldn't...

CHARLOTTE: I know. He doesn't want me talking to you. And I know you probably think I'm crazy, but I have a message for you and I promised to deliver it.

EKO: A message?

CHARLOTTE: He says you were a good priest.

EKO: Who says that?

CHARLOTTE: Yemi.

EKO [shocked]: Speaking about my brother is not a joke, so you should be very careful what you say next.

CHARLOTTE: I saw him when I was -- between places. He said that you would come and see me. He said that even though you were pretending, you're a good man.

EKO: Who put you up to this? Did your father tell you to do this?

CHARLOTTE: He wants you to know that he will see you soon. He said that even though you don't have faith in yourself, that he has faith in you.

EKO: Why are you doing this to me? What do you want from me? Why are you doing this to me?!

LIBBY [appearing]: Is everything alright?

[Charlotte nods and Libby keeps walking.]

CHARLOTTE: He has faith in you. One day you'll believe me. [she exits]

[Back on the island, we see Eko showing his cross to Locke.]

EKO: This cross was worn by my brother, Yemi. Yemi was a great man, a priest, a man of God. And because I betrayed him he was shot and died. He was placed on a plane which took off from an airstrip in Nigeria half a world from here. Then, the plane that I was on crashed on this island. And somehow, here, I found my brother again. I found him in the same plane that took off from Nigeria. In the same plane that lies above us now -- that has concealed this place. And I took this cross from around Yemi's neck and put it back on mine, just as it was on the day I first took another man's life. So let me ask you -- how can you say this is meaningless? I believe the work being done in the hatch is more important than anything. If you will not continue to push the button, John, I will."
As you can see, the "message" that Charlotte "conveyed" to Eko "from Yemi" — when she was "between places" — wasn't exactly that he "forgave" Eko. It was that, even though Eko was "pretending," he was "a good priest" and "a good man" — and that "He wants you to know that he will see you soon. He said that even though you don't have faith in yourself, that he has faith in you."

Clear as Smokey?

I doubt the distinction matters much...

Tanatie, imjo, these were arguably just statements intended to seduce Eko (if needed), ensuring his presence on the flight — and eventually his "driven" presence on the island. (So "Yemi" could "see [Eko] soon.") That explanation would be consistent with how Claire, e.g., ended up on 815. (Though from the fraud, not a "between place." Like father, like daughter?) Eko would probably have realized at some level of consciousness that these "messages" were dissonant with any ring of truth. It could even be seen from a perspective similar to the one I voiced about "Yemi" as Eko's "Shadow" in my first "bulleted" item below, here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1115598&highlight=Shadow#post1115598). I.e., no matter what really occurred, Eko was driven by powerful, unconscious forces toward the island and a confrontation with what "Yemi" represented to him...

I wonder if it's possible that the whole appearance (sham?) of Eko as "a spiritual man" was really adjunct to this — that the "message from Yemi" was haunting him throughout his stay on the island, forcing him to focus himself on confronting mortally disturbing things about himself that he'd ignored all his life.

I also think it's ~interesting to note what Eko said to Locke back in the Pearl after experiencing this flashback (see the end of what's quoted within the spoiler tag above). Perhaps Eko releasing the cross to "Yemi" symbolically precipitated the climax of the "Mr. Eko" storyline, and his death...

Draco

11-15-06, 01:52 PM

I liked Eko's character, but I didn't mourn his passing, as in my opinion the character went awry in "?", with the abrupt switch between Eko and Locke as Priests of the Button. I think Eko should have stayed a semi-mystical figure that kept himself outside the whole hatch-Dharma-button business, but then again, the sudden switch of roles between Eko, Jack and Locke concerning the button is in my opinion the lowest point in Season 2, in terms of storytelling. Anyway, from then on, Eko went downhill for me, so, although I regret it was a missed opportunity, I'll admit that I didn't mourn his loss as I thought I would.

But I digress. On to the business of his death. I agree that Eko called his fate upon himself with his last words, but I do not think that he was doomed since the beginning because of his previous sins.
I think that after the crash, much like the other Losties, Eko was given another chance and a new life, the recurring "tabula rasa" theme. He did seize the chance and, in spite of the difficult overall situation, he was on his way to be actually redeemed.
But then, just as it happened with Locke and the other Losties, getting rid of your past is not such an easy and quick thing. Old habits would surface again, and the risk of repeating past mistakes would still be there. (I agree with those who say that Eko was definitely less soft-spoken and gentle than what we wanted him to be). Anyway, with highs and lows, Eko was on his way to embrace his new life as a priest on the island, maybe sincerely for the first time (he surely was not sincere up to his trip to Australia, as he was messing with forged papers right before the psychic's daughter file was handed down to him).
I think the weak link in Eko's chain that ultimately proved to be his undoing was his brother Yemi. Eko never really resolved his problem with Yemi, and although he did manage to accept, atone and ask forgiveness for his other sins (see Eko's speech to Benjamin in the hatch) he could never face his own inner demons about his role in his brother's fate. It's possible that deep inside he felt guilty about his death (after all he did to protect him), and maybe the fact that he just couldn't accept the idea that, in spite of all he had done, he wasn't able to save his brother life, forced him to believe that he wasn't guilty of his death, while he actually was. Maybe all that Smokey in form of Yemi wanted to hear was "Forgive me for having you killed", but Eko just couldn't find the strength to say those words, even if he knew they were true.

to answer the above post, I think Yemi did forgive his brother: it was Eko that just couldn't forgive himself.

Fourtoes

11-15-06, 09:43 PM

Interesting thread.
I think these are very important questions, but would go a generally different direction with them.

Here's my version of the course of Eko's life:
-- An innocent by streetwise boy in Africa, he sacrifices his own soul to save his brother's. It is a morally ambiguous action.
-- Because of this difficult decision, Eko leads the life of a criminal. But underneath he has the potential to do much good. He does not love evil and much of his violence is directed against truly evil men.
-- While still young, Eko confronts people like the nun who tells him to confess and rejects any idea of moral ambiguity. But Eko rejects her vision of the world. That does not mean he rejects any faith at this point or any other. Nevertheless, it makes him more conflicted and guilt-ridden.
-- Eko's purpose in getting the heroin out of Africa is actually noble, even though he maintains his cover as a criminal by having a profit angle.
-- When asked to help Eko with his disguise, Remi sees an opportunity wrought in Catholic theology: If he ordains Eko, he truly will be a priest with all the authority of a priest. He might himself ultimatley be damned, but he will remain a tool of divine grace.
-- Remi seizes the opportunity to return Eko's substitution of long ago and Eko becomes the priest.
-- Eko recognizes what has happened and determines to be a righteous priest. But he finds himself conflicted by the presence of evil oppressors. So he turns one last time to his violent side and reaps justice in the church.
-- As things progress, others see him as unholy for this. But they themselves (as well as Yemi) turned out to be part of unholy compromise. Eko does not believe in letting evil reign by passive cooperation with it.
-- There's a gap in Eko's story, but we next see him fully back in priesthood and working for the Church in Australia, where he's investigating a possible miracle. We know this episode pretty well. The key thing here is that he receives a message from Yemi. My take on it is that this is a genuine message from Yemi and NOT one that pseudo-psychic Malkin wanted him to receive.
-- And then we have everything that happens on the island. Until the final moments of his life, Eko behaves exactly as a deeply guilt-ridden man of faith who wants to do what is right and believes God has a purpose for his life.

But here's what I think is important. Unlike whatever Charlotte saw, all of the visions of Yemi on the island are deceptions.
Eko is being fooled and is not aware of it. He gives his confession of his deeds as a way of sorting out what he has done. He's saying, I will not confess things to be wrong that were not wrong even though men, who are not God, have said that they are wrong. I did what was needed and I do not stand condemned by God.
But false-Yemi says to him as he confesses, "You speak to me as if I was your brother." Yes, there is irony because of the history and because of what happened in that church in Africa. But what is really being said is: You think that I'm just your brother. But I am the devourer of souls and reader of hearts. I mock your confession.

Even as Eko says, "Who are you!!!???", he knows the answer.

But he has stared down Smokey before and he knows that it is his mortal enemy. He has been sent here to wrestle with this foe. And Eko is defeated. But only in the Obi Wan sort of way.

There's a lot related to this in thread on the script on the stick. Much speculation that we'll be seeing Eko prominently in visions.

sexy baby mama

11-16-06, 02:00 AM

why did the psychic's daughter tell Eko that his brother forgives him and then the havid Yemi says basically that he doesn't?

Even though Fourtoes and Draco have above said similar things to what I am about to say, I am going to say it plainly and to-the-point.

The psychic's daughter saw a genuine vision from Yemi, in which Yemi said that he forgave his brother, and that he was a good person. The Havid Yemi that Eko sees on the island is a deception. It IS NOT Yemi. (The Havid even says it is not Yemi.) So, the answer is this: Yemi does forgive and believe in Eko. Smokie, the island, havids, whatever, take the form of Yemi and judge Eko badly.

FoundAddict

11-16-06, 07:00 AM

Fourtoes

11-16-06, 04:01 PM

I don't think Yemi forgave Eko at all. He knows that Eko is a good person deep down, and Eko is his brother. But he is also a priest and Eko cannot be forgiven unless he feels remorse for his actions (in terms of absolution).

Eko doesn't feel any remorse for his actions. Thus he was unforgiven. There was no grey area in the eyes of the great "Judge/Jury/Executioner" (whether you say it's Smokey, Yemi, or God). That was the whole point of the episode for Eko.

That's only true if Eko has truly done wrong. But knows that despite hypocrites have always told him otherwise, he was NOT doing wrong. And he is already right with God and does not need absolution for those things. Therefore, it would have been a lie to confess these things as sins. He passes the test, the unclean spirit slays him, and he will rise up to be more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

DharmaBum01

11-16-06, 06:09 PM

sexy baby mama

11-16-06, 08:42 PM

Hey, Y'all!

Great contributions, Draco, Fourtoes, sexy baby mama, FoundAddict, and Fourtoes! Thoughtful, fabulous, deep, inventive...

But I'm a bit querulous one one point. For those who argue that Yemi or the hallucination/vision/dream (havid) "Yemi" forgave Eko —
— woulda/coulda you please share some specific evidence (words, expression, tone of voice, etc. from a named episode, such as E210 (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15447), E221 (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19304), or E305) for why you believe either Did He (or Didn't He)?
In my view, Eko never asked for or otherwise sought forgiveness — but I'm interested in why folks think 'twas given. Do you see it as an unspoken state of grace thing?

I provided specific data in my OP and in the spoiler tag in hopes of facilitating this kind of approach. Unfortunately, Spooky's transcript (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=92) for E305 hasn't yet been posted as of this morning (Nov. 16th) — so I'm working on a transcript of all the scenes involving Eko in The Cost of Living. I'll post it when it's ~ready for prime time...

Thanks!
2-1/2¢

Well, to answer your question, I don't think the HAVID Yemi forgave Eko at all. Eko, in turn, was not asking for forgiveness. As Fourtoes pointed out, Eko does not think he's done anything wrong, so he is not going to ask for forgiveness.

The real Yemi is dead, and has been dead for awhile. We have not had any messages from the REAL Yemi, other than Charlotte Malkin's revelation of him last season. And I think that message was more one of encouragement and love for a brother than it was for any wrong thing Eko did. So, does the REAL Yemi forgive his brother for tricking him into making him a priest, for using his church as cover for a drug run, or for putting him on the flight that ultimately killed him? I have no idea. And I don't think we can know, except that Yemi, being Eko's brother, loves him no matter what.

The Yemi on the island is fake, and Eko has just realized it. He has been trying to make things right in honour of his brother: running a church, being a priest to Claire......it's almost as if Eko thinks that by being a priest here, he can start doing things in a different way. But the fake Yemi has lead him astry from that path, and Eko realized it too late. And now he is dead.

Funshine

11-16-06, 09:15 PM

I don't think Yemi forgave Eko at all. He knows that Eko is a good person deep down, and Eko is his brother. But he is also a priest and Eko cannot be forgiven unless he feels remorse for his actions (in terms of absolution).
Or until he lowers his pride enough to recognize that while he acted for the greater good in the end, his actions were in and of themselves "bad".

Fourtoes

11-16-06, 09:46 PM

Or until he lowers his pride enough to recognize that while he acted for the greater good in the end, his actions were in and of themselves "bad".

I disagree. Given the premise that Yemi (the real one) and Eko were essentially good Catholics, it would follow that Eko, regardless of his controversial actions, needs to receive forgiveness because of his original sin -- the shared guilt of all humanity in being born sinful rather than merely become sinful by our actions. So the message from Charlotte is significant to Eko in this sense and reassures him that he has not fallen from grace.

Nevertheless, the seeds of doubt planted by the hypocrites who constantly tell him to confess when he has only done the violently good thing are tearing at him. He undergoes his fast to sort out these things. Then he becomes confused by the visions of Yemi (false Yemi) on the island.

But at the end, Eko knows that his original sin is forgiven and with regard to individual sins, he would be lying to God -- sinning -- if he confesses as sins those things that he knows to have been deeds of righteous justice. So he passes the test, only to find that it has not been his brother testing him at all.

And then, etc. as discussed in previous posts. Smokey is evil incarnate and killing righteous Eko will prove to have been a miscalculation.

bella

11-16-06, 11:06 PM

Smokey is evil. He finds your greatest weakness and turns it against you.

DharmaBum01

11-17-06, 02:15 AM

Thanks, sexy baby mama. Very cogent and thoughful answer (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1119235#post1119235), imho.

Hi, Funshine and Bella; thanks for joining in!

I'm working on a reply to some of the intriguing and thought-provoking perspectives that folks have posted. As this post is getting long in the tooth, I'll punch the button and come back for more in-depth dialogue on those a bit later. For now, I'd like to share this:

Shifting for a moment to a slightly different aspect of the Eko::Smokey conflict in The Cost of Living — I noticed something I'd missed while combing back through the episode to confirm dialogue, etc. . .

A "Puff of Smokey." There's an eerie (and, to me, amusing) instant of Smokey-encounter about a minute before we see the altar boy, Daniel, in the jungle (saying, "Sshh! Confess...").

At [11:00] of the iTunes version of the show, we see Eko, struggling to walk through the jungle. He appears to be delirious, turning around and looking at the jungle, sunshine streaming through the tree canopy... He stumbles against a tree, tries to recover his balance, then collapses to the ground, unconscious. After a flashback interlude in which Eko returns to the Nigerian church from the airfield, the scene switches back to Eko on the island, [13:33] still lying on the jungle floor, his left hand bloody. We hear birds' singing. He opens his eyes, shakes his head, and, as he raises to his knees, we hear a quick clicking-and-chattering sound and see an small, horizontal "puff" of black Smoke, moving beside Eko's head [13:41] — for just an instant. If you look really closely at the scene itself, Smokey appears to be exiting Eko's head. [Ridiculous, I know. But. . .] http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p272/WadesDad/E306_EkosHeadIsSmokey01.jpg Eko continues to get up, breaking a branch to lean on as he continues his journey. He is clearly still struggling with pain, and may still be delirious, but his gait seems to be stronger and more purposeful. After a few steps, he walks into the glare of the sun, and we hear the familair clicking-and-chattering sound again.

[14:08] Out of the glare, havid "Emeka" appears and throws a panga knife/machéte at Eko's head. Eko jerks as if hit. He turns and pulls the machéte from a tree trunk. Eko turns back from the tree to face three bloodied havids: one with his throat cut; one with a severed arm; and one, bleeding from his head (Emeka), who is abruptly cowering before Eko and begging for his life. As Eko raises the machéte to butcher the man, he's startled to see havid Emeka transformed into havid Daniel...

The Smokey-sounds associated with the appearance of the Nigerian havids were pretty clear — as was Smokey's appearance over Eko's shoulder at the creek [~19:11 – 19:21].

But I'd missed this "puff" of Smokey until now. I'm sure others have noted the instant, but I haven't seen it mentioned. If anyone has the ability via TiVo, iTunes, etc. to review that moment, I'd be interested to know what you think... I'm not suggesting this has any deep philosophical import — but, if I've observed accurately, it may be another datum about Smokey's nature and functionality... Though it seems a tiny detail, I'm trying to keep in mind that a key piece of info about Smokey was revealed after E210 (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15447) (The 23rd Psalm) when someone reviewing frame-by-frame discovered the Shadow images "hidden" within Smokey as s/he/it confronted Eko...

Huh? Eko's encounters have represented a lot of what we "know" about the mysterious Smokey. I'm wondering if this instant was intended by The Makers as a visual pun, indicating that Smokey "got into" Eko's head, "causing" the flashback(s) while he was unconscious, then exited stage left and manifested some havids out in the seemingly "real" world of the jungle. . .
__________________________________________________
"Deceptive" force + Shadow? Fourtoes and sexy baby mama, I agree with your assessment that "deceptive" is a fair characterization of interactions Eko has had with the havid "Yemi" on the island. But I'm inclined to think of Losties' interactions with Smokey (and what seem her/his/its minion havids) as having both supernatural and psychological elements. (Note that I'm leaving sci-fi stuff such as "control by the guy in the eye patch" out of it, at least for the moment.) As a consequence, my "take" on, e.g., havid "Yemi's" deceptions is that there are forces both external and internal to Eko at work. This approach probably differs somewhat from yours, too, Bella, in that I'm trying to account for Locke's "eye of this island" experience as well as Eko's — implying that "evil" and "evil incarnate" may be over-simplifying. . .

Anyway, this is something I'll explore in more depth in a subsequent post that I'm drafting.

64¢

Draco

11-17-06, 01:11 PM

I agree with Sexy Baby Mama, the only message we may have received from the real Yemi comes from the psychic's daughter (and, come to think of it, it was followed by "he wants to know that you will bee with him soon" is quite an ominous foreshadowing of things to pass!), and I think it was a sincere message of forgiveness; it may not have been important in the overall scheme of judgement, but as far as the real Yemi was concerned, Eko was forgiven, even though he may have remained a sinner, but that it is not necessarily a oximoron: especially when loved ones are involved, forgiveness is often given even if the sinner has hurted us or has not actually repented. In the end, I think Eko and Yemi were reconciled, and although this might not matter in the overall plot, I think it gives Eko'stragic departure a slightly more positive note.

Island Yemi/Smokey is another matter entirely. It is still a mystery why he wanted Eko to confess/repent and why it killed him when he didn't, but that it was playing a game of deception with Eko is now clear.
2 things come to my mind: if Yemi from "?" was actually Smokey, and I am inclined to believe it always was, then we know that Smokey badly wanted the button to be pushed (he practically conned Eko into doing it), so we should assume that Smokey is strictly tied to Dharma, or at least wanted their work to continue.
Second, apparently Locke and Eko have both undergone the same treatment from Smokey: the first time they met they were simply scanned, but the second time, it tried to kill them (or, in Locke's case was at least far more hostile).

On the other hand, something that troubles me is that in terms of storytelling, making Smokey just a big black cloud out for the Losties' blood is quite cheap. I would like to think that its actions and reactions are somewhat related to the spiritual evolution or involution of the subject. In other words, I would like to think that Eko's death rests finally on himself because of a choice (although a wrong one) instead of an elaborate deception by a man-killing machine... that would be too easy, if you get what I mean.

Khan

11-17-06, 01:41 PM

Looking at Eko's arc from beginning to end I see a man who had an inherent violence and stubborn willfulness that he never over came.
In his final flashback we see him stealing food, yes he did it for his brother, but he refused to accept that he did was wrong.
He was taken by war lords and we could argue that they shaped his morals from that point and turned him into a murderer. That's not necessarily true though because he had been taught right and wrong by that time. Deep down he knew the what he was doing was wrong, but made no attempt as an adult to free himself from his life of evil.
In his flashbacks his violence or crimes has always been in connection to protecting someone. He felt justified in his drug transactions, his theft, and his murders. He tried to wash the blood off his hands in holy water and he tried to rid himself of his sins with a holy facade. But he never truly owned up to his guilt. Yes the people around him were wrong, but he still needed to face his own sins and not make excuses for them.
This time he's facing death and I think it was his one last chance to say, "I was wronged but I was wrong as well". He didn't do that, in the end he showed who he truly was, someone willing to do anything evil as long as he felt it was right and for a good cause.
He's made that choice over even his belief in God time and time again. It's possible Smokey reacts to what's going on in thier hearts. He could have condemned himself because he knew better.