Jack is better then the drama.

[Jakk92056]

He's shown us he was the man......

When he told that loser hillbilly to get up so he could get a "Man beating".

Then when Kate came in the picture to her boyfriend's aid. (Like all chivarees men) Jack decided to stand down.

Sawyer may be able to play dumb women with his fake southern accent but Jack sees right through it.

I would love to see jack stop all communication with both these losers and stick to helping those who deserve it.

Kick Kate to the curb

[morbius47]

I'll say it again...

Less Kate, More Claire, Less Kate, More Claire...

[gscaleta]

Um well you are dissing kate so I have to say a little something. First of all he has a woman practically throwing herself at him and he does nothing?? Look -- he's stranded on an island for over a week and it could possibly be his last romp cause who knows when he's gonna die. If it's me I don't care if it's Rose coming on to me - I'm taking it back in the cave!!

[gscaleta]

morbius get over it. I told you claire is with sceve and unless you are a voyer I think you should chill.

[morbius47]

gscaleta, stay on your side of the treehouse until you can quit lying about my lady Claire.

[gscaleta]

well stop trashing kate and i'll do the same. Deal??

[Jakk92056]

I didn’t mean to dis Kate with this post. She’s just a character that’s fell under the spell of a player/con-man.

Jack doesn’t have time for the games that Sawyer is playing. he's fed up with it and it got to him.



You can tell that Jack really likes Kate by his need for her safety. That’s why he keeps pushing her to move to the caves.

Im just calling her what she is...... Stupid.

[morbius47]

All right, I'll leave Kate alone... Boy will I leave her alone, I mean she's sooo Skinny...and what's with her, uhm, er Sorry.

Okay starting now I'll leave Kate alone. No more talk about how boney she is, or how plain her face is, or how "C's" was such an obvious overstatement....dammit, I did it again.

Okay starting now...

[gscaleta]

Ok morbius we have a deal. Like you I won't mention how sceve and claire eloped or how claire is lazy and pathetic or anything like that ever again. I won't even bring up how rumor has it she was chasing vincent into the jungle. Starting now it's all over

[Zambini Stardust]

Jack has shown us he was the man? Pass that stuff around, we all need a good toke.

Jack and Kate are perfect for one another because both of their characters are over-written, over-acted, impossibly complex, and mostly just plain unpleasant. Kate is a snotty angry little b**** with a capital B. She's so hung up on her own petty little personality problems that all she can do is criticize Sawyer, and don't you think there is a little projection going on there? Jack likes to think he's the hero but dead old dad was right: he jerked a knife out of a bleeding wound with no particular plan on how to deal with the bleeding, he couldn't help the asthmatic with anything more substantive than a Jedi moment, he got himself trapped in a cave which HE promised everyone was the second Eden (thus nearly costing Charlie his life as well), we would have been better rid of him two episodes ago if Locke hadn't saved his butt.

All in all, I say let the two of them play cave together, if that's what they want. I find Sawyer, Sayid, Locke, Charley, Hurley, Michael, and Claire a lot more interesting characters.

[gscaleta]

Ok another one of yous trash talking kate. I think everyone needs to re-think there anti kate positions and cut her some slack. And unless claire or shannon or some soon to be known extra starts taking their shirts off then i say KEEP KATE for nothing more than a cheap occassional thrill!!

[morbius47]

gscaleta, I didn't say anything...If Claire does take her shirt off, avert your eyes, all of you, she's all mine.

Zambini, I couldn't agree more.

[gscaleta]

morbius we just had a vote and we decided you are OUT OF THE TREEHOUSE and as your penalty you get to take rose with you. And if you want take zambini in case you wan't to go skating you have something to clean the ice with.

[morbius47]

*&$@&)&@$ing treehouse*&@$&)*&$@&*)find own place&*@%)*&*&%98CLEAN THE ICE GOOD ONE#&%)*&%$)#&$

[Zambini Stardust]

And if you want take zambini in case you wan't to go skating you have something to clean the ice with.

You dolt! That's not a zambini, it's a calzone!
:rollin

[morbius47]

"You dolt that's not a zambini, it's a calzone"
:rollin

[gscaleta]

hmmm calzone - thanks. I think i'm gonna go get me one. They are mmm mmm good

[Hugo Xiong]

Jack has shown us he was the man? Pass that stuff around, we all need a good toke.

Jack and Kate are perfect for one another because both of their characters are over-written, over-acted, impossibly complex, and mostly just plain unpleasant. Kate is a snotty angry little b**** with a capital B. She's so hung up on her own petty little personality problems that all she can do is criticize Sawyer, and don't you think there is a little projection going on there? Jack likes to think he's the hero but dead old dad was right: he jerked a knife out of a bleeding wound with no particular plan on how to deal with the bleeding, he couldn't help the asthmatic with anything more substantive than a Jedi moment, he got himself trapped in a cave which HE promised everyone was the second Eden (thus nearly costing Charlie his life as well), we would have been better rid of him two episodes ago if Locke hadn't saved his butt.

All in all, I say let the two of them play cave together, if that's what they want. I find Sawyer, Sayid, Locke, Charley, Hurley, Michael, and Claire a lot more interesting characters.

I definitely have the opposite viewpoint; I think Jack and Kate are the most interesting, well-written, and well-acted characters on LOST. And that from far being useless, they're the glue that is holding the whole group together.

First of all, Jack's the leader. He's the one who makes the decisions. He's the doctor with the authority. I won't argue about the knife-removing thing (which I believe is more a plot conveniency on the part of the show writers than anything else), but you can't expect him to know about the eycaluptus (sp?) or the structural soundness of the cave. All these things are, by the way, contrived by the writers to introduce extra elements of tension into the show and move the plot. I wouldn't pass judgement on Jack's competency from them. Jack is in fact doing very very well for being stranded on a island for two weeks, and I would not expect more from Abraham Lincoln.

I don't know why you think Kate is a bitch. I haven't seen any personality problems so far. She just seems awesome to me--kind, smart, tough, compassionate, humble, introspective, decisive, and bueatiful. And her eyes!

[Chance Gardener]

I'm taking it back in the cave!!

Shouldn't this be in the Jack is gay thread?

[Jakk92056]

If we are going to say anything about the character development on this show it has to be “Awesome”.

Everyone on the show has a basis in reality.

Maybe not our reality ...............but someone reality. (Kudos to the writers)


I called Kate (the character) stupid for a reason, she fell (and is still falling) for the Con-mans game and her need to fill better by fixing a troubled soul.

With that being said, Jack did the same thing. He was brought to Sawyers level because he got fed up with his games... and Sawyer has only played games since he got on the island.

Anyone who doesn’t see the writing on the wall needs to buy a clue.&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

[MaxKaladin]

Frankly, if we're going to talk about who is "the man" I'd nominate Locke before Jack or Sawyer. Locke has kept a cool head and quietly gone about his business and the business of helping others throughout their stay on the island. He doesn't engage in the sort of stupid, macho nonsense we saw from Sawyer and Jack in "Confidence Man".

Heck, I'd probably nominate Hurley before either of them, too. He's been quietly functioning at tasks and in conditions that are very difficult for someone of his size with hardly a complaint and he's done it without engaging in a bunch of pointless macho chest thumping. He's not been taking on a leadership role but he's stepped up to show initiative when nobody else around was able to do it (cave-in). He's just been doing stuff that needs to be done. He's been willing to just follow and I think that is itself pretty admirable in a group that seems to have too many wanna-be chiefs for the number of indians as it is.

Neither Locke or Hurley is engaging in the sort of alpha-male nonsense we've seen from some of the other male characters and in my book that makes them far more worthy of being "the man" than Jack or Sawyer.

I suspect that won't be a popular assessment, but there it is.

[azteclady]

Jakk 92056 said:
"Anyone who doesn’t see the writing on the wall needs to buy a clue"

Here you are, dear - and you got it for free!

And just to avoid confusion, I'm an equally opportunity critic - no character is safe with me.

Well, there are two possible exceptions: Claire and Hurley. Of course, we know so little about them, that I'm positive I'll soon be able to take issue with them. :D


Beto

Okay, those of you who have more than 50 posts, start helping out around here! Read the first post in the "Keep the LOST forum Gold" and get that much needed clue!

Seriously! We are talking $7 for 6 months!!!

[Beckers1]

Neither Locke or Hurley is engaging in the sort of alpha-male nonsense we've seen from some of the other male characters and in my book that makes them far more worthy of being "the man" than Jack or Sawyer.

I like them both ... and what you've said convinces me that they both make great followers, possible 2nd in commands.

But, let's be fair: Locke did run off into the jungle alone during their boar run because he doesn't want to be told he can't do anything ... and he feels he has some kind of destiny. He may be right. But remember, Michael was hurt. A real leader would have helped him back to camp - with Kate - then went back for the boar. It was very dangerous for her to half carry a wounded man by herself back to the beach (with "the creature" out there) -- but what choice did Locke leave her with?

Hurley? Sweet guy but his aversion to blood is more comical than heroic. Still, he's as helpful as he can be and, I think, a great guy to sit down and talk with.

I just don't see either as a leader. Both Locke and Hurley have their own weaknesses and strengths. All and all, they serve the survivors well.

As for Kate and Jack ... they're awesome. They don't give up. They both have quiet strength. You either go with them or stay behind. Niether are under played or over played. I think the perfect actors were selected. Thank you Evangeline and Mathew. :)

[MaxKaladin]

I just don't see either as a leader. Both Locke and Hurley have their own weaknesses and strengths. All and all, they serve the survivors well.I see that I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean to say that I felt either should be the leader, though when I go back and read my message it looks like that's what I'm saying. Rather, I meant to say I think they're both acting more like a "man" than either Jack or Sawyer.

I don't really think either should be the leader. I think Locke recognizes he isn't leader material -- not because of ability but because he knows people think he's "creepy" and won't follow him because of it. He has made errors in judgement, but I submit that his errors have been no worse than those of anyone else. Hurley doesn't want the job and I don't think would do very good at it. I just think the two are far more qualified to be called "men" than either Jack or Sawyer right now.

[Hugo Xiong]

Let's not forget Locke is somewhat insane.

[Beckers1]

I see that I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean to say that I felt either should be the leader, though when I go back and read my message it looks like that's what I'm saying. Rather, I meant to say I think they're both acting more like a "man" than either Jack or Sawyer.


Ah! I see. However, I still see Jack as a man.
Sure, he has his own demons but he's had a title (leader) thrust on him when he's not at his best. The fact that he can function and take it all on (reluctantly) under these circumstances says a lot for him, I think. He's doing the best he can in a situation he never thought to find himself in -- as are they all. :)

[dsera]

oh wow, aren't we all just being a little unrealistic here?

Do you really expect any one of these people to be without flaws? Without mistakes? I don't think any one character is without them either. They all have their own special charm which is what makes this show a hit. As far as what each one lends to the group, I'd say of the 46 remaining survivors, not many are seen contributing a whole lot. The only ones that have proven to be of any actual use on the island are Locke, Jack and Sayid. I'm not talking about chopping wood or helping with the cave-in, I'm talking about people who if they were not there, a huge difference would be seen.

Locke is just in his own little world, it's him against beast and the rest of the islanders are just there to eat his kill. I'm not sure he'd care if they were all gone. Sayid is so bent on finding that transmission and getting off the island and wooing Kate. He also seems to be somewhat reverting to his old ways and fighting it tooth and nail. Jack is trying his best to play doctor and leader all at once that he misses obvious things in both roles along the way. To be expected I would think.

Then you have the rest that lend the drama and entertainment to the show. Sawyer being my favorite, of course. He's the man you love to hate. I think he's emotionally complex, even though his action seem simple: greed and selfishness. Kate is so wrapped up in herself that she doesn't know what to do. She was on the run for God knows what and now is stranded on the island where every guy on it wants her. How can that not go to your head? Charlie just wants to be loved and seems to have found the perfect person he can fawn over. Way to go Charlie. Sun just wants out from under her husbands thumb and is taking every opportunity to do so. Who can blame her either? Boone and Shannon are just trying to find a way to survive and not be left in the shadows along the way. Hurly just wants to prove that he's not the fat guy that sits on his ass and eats. He's doing his best to be needed and do what he can and keep his spirits up. Bravo to Hurly. I love this guy!

The rest just kind of exist to me so far.

Feel free to disagree.
:p

[Samaraman]

As for Kate and Jack ... they're awesome. They don't give up. They both have quiet strength. You either go with them or stay behind. Niether are under played or over played. I think the perfect actors were selected. Thank you Evangeline and Mathew.

Couldn't agree more!!

[Wynter Zera]

I do not understand this love for Jack. He's kind of boring actually. At least Kate is complex. Sayid, Sun, Jin, Sawyer, Charlie, Hurly, and Locke are far more interesting than Jack. Actually Locke takes the cake mostly because we still aren’t totally sure what he’s up to half the time. I'd much rather see Locke than Jack.

[Mulekite]

I think that there is a deep complexity to Jack. We learned that Jack doesn’t think of himself as a leader, he is just a guy who loves taking care of those around him. Sacrificing all that he can to help and care for “All” (including Sawyer or the actor formally known as Sawyer) those on the island. Not just the medical needs, but he is there with emotional understanding and counsel, finding water and shelter and helping others to see their own potential. He is even willing to fight for the health and safety of others, first to secure the health of Shannon and then to beat up a bully that has decided to pound on someone smaller than himself.

Remember that it was Locke that told Jack that he was a leader. Locke said that the survivors of the crash “need someone to tell them what to do”. Jack said “I can’t”, Locke said “why can’t you”, Jack replied “I not a leader”. Then Locke said something very significant he said, “…and yet they all treat you like one!”

By what he has been willing to risk and sacrifice for others individually, he has gain their trust and respect. Namely: Hurley, Rose, Boone, Charlie, Sayid, Locke and Kate. Trust and respect are human traits that have to be earned, they are never, I repeat, never given away carelessly.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Trust and respect are human traits that have to be earned, they are never, I repeat, never given away carelessly.

Mulekite: That's perfect. Why is it so many people have a hard time understanding that thought when it's such a simple truth? The list of people in my life I both trust and respect is very very small.

In this case, Jack's earned both by his actions and his words.

JacksGirl

[broerox]

Sawyer is SUCH a JERK! Ugh, I usually enjoy the "bad boys" but he's just a slimy pig. Jack has flaws, but he's a decent human being, which is more than I can say for the guy who risks a girl's life so he can get a kiss.

[azteclady]

Mulekite said:
"Trust and respect are human traits that have to be earned, they are never, I repeat, never given away carelessly."

This is true of self-aware, mature human beings, but definitely not the norm for adolescents or children (even those in grown-up bodies), which is why we see so many weird and tragic things happen every day.

Broerox, the thing is... Sawyer didn't risk any girl's life, since he didn't have the inhalers to begin with. He messed with Jack's, Saeed's and Kate's heads for sure, but he didn't risk Shannon's life. And we still don't know for sure whether Sawyer told Boone that he didn't have the inhalers.


Beto

[gscaleta]

well aztec i don't want to disagree with you cause i'm just such an easy going non confrontational person (unlike malcom x's 3rd cousin - Baron X) but he could have put her life at risk because everyone was wasting time on sawyer vs looking for the inhalers or finding another cure

[broerox]

Sawyer didn't risk any girl's life, since he didn't have the inhalers to begin with. He messed with Jack's, Saeed's and Kate's heads for sure, but he didn't risk Shannon's life.
He beat up Boone. He wasted everyone's time. The girl could have died while he was playing his silly game. Had he told them he didn't have them, they could have tried searching for them elsewhere. To me he did risk her life for no reason other than to feed his brooding self-loathing routine. He works hard at angering everyone and plays victim when they finally react.

[Zambini Stardust]

Sawyer's headgames did not endanger Shannon's life at all. For those who think his headgames delayed their search for the medicine, I point you to Sayid's reaction after Kate told him that Sawyer didn't have the inhalers. Did Sayid say, okay let's go look elsewhere? No, he said Sawyer must be lying and then tried to kill him. Remember Sawyer's arm got stabbed AFTER he told Kate he didn't have the inhalers.

Sayid and probably Jack had already tried, convicted, and sentenced Sawyer based on just one piece of evidence: Boone's beat-up pretty face. That's all it took for them. They would have wasted the same amount of time torturing Sawyer even if he had said right up front, I don't have them.

Sawyer is a jerk, but he's always like that so everybody around him knows how to deal with him. Sayid and Jack are the ones who were reduced to savagery.

[Wynter Zera]

Sayid and Jack tortured Sawyer after Shannon's attack was over as well...

[broerox]

Sayid and Jack tortured Sawyer after Shannon's attack was over as well...
um when?

[gillygorge]

Hi All:
A couple of views on Jack have been mentioned above - 1) he is boring 2) no, not boring, complex. Both views encompass where I have been and where I am going with regards to this character. I started out thinking others - such as Locke were much more interesting than Jack and after Confidence Man, I am finding Jack much more interesting.

I guess flawed folks are more interesting for me and Jack has shown some fairly complex "issues" this episode in particular. I know, White Rabbit gave some background; but, for me, Jack's behaviors in this ep demonstrate such a fascinating juxtaposition of traits I have had to sit up and pay closer attention. A self-reported spinal surgeon who resorts to physical intimidation and torture. An exhausted man who can not sit down. A doctor who goes against his own medical training (removing the knife from Sawyer's arm prematurely) to save the life of the fellow he was just supervising the torture of (ok, wacky sentence but you get the idea). A leader type whose leadership abilities went down the tubes this ep. Yep, Jack has suddenly become alot more interesting.

Sawyer - personally, I was glad he didn't burn the letter. I am glad he is not yet "redeemed" in so quick a fashion. On other boards some have mentioned him as possibly sacrificing himself in a blaze of glory to save others. Please, ABC save us. Let Sawyer be an a-hole until he alone finds reasons to tweak his own behavior...or, not. What do you all think?

Gilly

[cccourt]

Boys: Go to your rooms. Do your fantasizing in private!!

And Girls...this is an alpha male thread!

[JacksGirlfriend]

Gilly - I liked everything you said, particularly about Jack. I too found him much more interesting this episode. I could barely believe what I was watching. The fact that he was able to shock me was quite a surprise.

As far as Sawyer is concerned, I think he will go out in a blaze of glory. I just hope it isn't too soon cause I like him just the way he is and I'll miss him.

JacksGirl

[spooky]

I totally agree that Jack was more interesting in this episode. I, too, was surprised that he went along with the torturing (or at least how quickly he agreed). I'm glad the writers are developing him into more than a Dudley Do-Right. I'm not convinced, though, that they know exactly where they're taking him, sometimes his reactions strike me as more jarring than interesting.

But I hope they don't off Sawyer in some heroic self-sacrifice plot. That would be really cheesy. And way too easy of an out for a masochist of this magnitude. He needs to pay up, not blaze in glory. Besides, Sawyer is a great foil/juxtaposition to Jack's earnestness. And he delivers some of the funniest lines on the show, "I don't know what kind of commie sharefest you're running down in cave town..." Classic (good writers, good, good, good).

I would miss lines like that, not to mention those dimples (shame on me, shame, shame, shame).

[gillygorge]

Spooky wrote: re: Jack "I'm not convinced, though, that they know exactly where they're taking him" - HA! I definately don't think Jack knows "where" he is being taken either! In Confidence Man the character seemed to even be shocked with himself.

I know this isn't the Sawyer thread but since he is such the perfect foil for Jack - I just have to reiterate in agreement - please no blaze of glory for Sawyer. I *like* SOBs - which he is and which he also brings out in Jack - they create tension and challenge, a measure of chaos. Keep it up. And, no I'm not looking for Sawyer to be all softy on the inside. I'm looking for *development* which doesn't necessarily have to be positive to be valuable.

Gilly