"they've got history"

[Susan B Anthony]

I'm just interested, fellow Beniacs....

What was your FIRST reaction when Tom told Jack that Ben and Juliet "have history"? Gut reaction with no analysis.

I ask because it didn't sit right with me when he said it and I'm not sure why. I had already extrapolated that there is something between them just because of the dynamic when they are together. But I would not have guessed it as, "we had a relationship and now he is making me stay here on the island against my will." Maybe it is just because I don't like the idea of Ben being the jilt-ee and not the jilt-er.

Am I the only one who had this reaction?

Anyone?
Anyone?
Bueller?

[Darkshines]

I saw it as a history of arguing, maybe because Juliet is now such a strong person, Ben doesn't like it............

[vonnegut]

The "they have a history" line didn't throw me much, since they've been hinting at it since the beginning of the season...

What DID throw me, was when Juliet said she'd only been on the island for three years.

Must not have been a very long history (which I was thinking it was).

Of course, it never crossed my mind that Ben was the jilt-ee. Juliet seems to be the one that is emotional and spiteful towards him-- wouldn't be the reaction if she'd "broken up" with him. From snide little gestures like not inviting him to the Book Club, to her melodramatic plots to get him killed, she's definitely acting like a woman scorned.

[snivellusfriend]

I didn't understand the "they've got history" line at first, but after seeing the whole episode and letting it sink in, I like it; It sounds poetic to me: Juliet is Ben's weakness and he wanted to keep her on the island because he loved her.

[vonnegut]

I didn't understand the "they've got history" line at first, but after seeing the whole episode and letting it sink in, I like it; It sounds poetic to me: Juliet is Ben's weakness and he wanted to keep her on the island because he loved her.

Pffft.

Juliet's the one with the "feelings" here.

I have a feeling that for Ben, she's just another tool that he can manipulate.

If Ben cares about anyone, it's Alex... she's the one that he asked about before going under.

[Hodgepodge]

I've theorized in another thread, Juliet's sister Rachel, died prior to her landing on the island. Juliet having the the book Carrie with her as a remembrance.

We've seen what an emotional coward she was in the real world, I would think Ben played on this and they became lovers. I haven't thought about who dumped who, but the idea Ben wasn't invited to the book club meeting says a lot. Also, remember how Ben left her to fend for herself when Jack flooded that antechamber. Ben sure got the hell out of there, leaving Juliet to sink or swim. Literally!

[vonnegut]

I've theorized in another thread, Juliet's sister Rachel, died prior to her landing on the island. Juliet having the the book Carrie with her as a remembrance.

We've seen what an emotional coward she was in the real world, I would think Ben played on this and they became lovers. I haven't thought about who dumped who, but the idea Ben wasn't invited to the book club meeting says a lot. Also, remember how Ben left her to fend for herself when Jack flooded that antechamber. Ben sure got the hell out of there, leaving Juliet to sink or swim. Literally!

Yes, all of that is very telling.

If you think about the emotions that are involved in any situation, I would say that Juliet's definitely show more of a "scorned" position. If she were the one to dump him, she wouldn't still be holding all of this spite and hatred. Ben seems a bit more indifferent bordering on irritated.

[Darkshines]

I'm nt getting ove vibes at all, I just see two people who clashed in the past. Juliet seems really meek around him. She was crying in Stepford Village because see ad to talk about Carrie, not because of Ben......

Maybe?

[snakey]

Maybe the history is that for 3 years he's been controlling her with the promise of going home so by now she hates his butt. Also that she could pet the bunny but he is still holding out.

[vonnegut]

Also that she could pet the bunny but he is still holding out.

*snickers*

[Without Dane]

Interesting. I sort of got the opposite impression, Vonne - that Ben was the one who was heart broken. And that he dropped her a few levels on the power ladder because she dumped him. Although the fact that they've only known each other for 3 years mixes things up a bit. We'll see!

[vonnegut]

Interesting. I sort of got the opposite impression, Vonne - that Ben was the one who was heart broken. And that he dropped her a few levels on the power ladder because she dumped him. Although the fact that they've only known each other for 3 years mixes things up a bit. We'll see!


You would think that would be the case, but he's really just shown no indication of having feelings for her still.

Or maybe one-- the "soup" comment. But that seemed a little more ironic than anything.

[Hodgepodge]

You guys have to admit, whatever this "history" is, it sent her to a strange place. Wanting him dead! Maybe she's been promised she could go home on several occasions, but I've heard of scorned lovers acting the same way.

[snivellusfriend]

:yeah: The fact that Juliet regretted her ex-husband's death, but wanted Ben dead says something.

[Susan B Anthony]

:yeah: The fact that Juliet regretted her ex-husband's death, but wanted Ben dead says something.

I think it says something about how far she has come since her first meeting with Mitellos, and maybe the things she has seen, done, been forced to do. Remember, Sawyer opined that Juliet would have shot Kate "no problem." And she capped Danny with little show of emotion. I am reminded of Sayid's line when talking about torture, "there was a part of me that was always capable of it."

Yes, we know Juliet is willing and able to kill, but she wasn't willing to kill Ben herself. She didn't say to Jack, "just open him up, and let me do the rest." She wanted Jack to do the dirty deed for her. Was it to cover her own a**? Could she kill others but not Ben? Because of their "history"?

My gut feeling has been that Ben is the one with the stronger attachment. Juliet, at least now, is merely trapped on the island. If I were a betting man, I would say she was first attracted to Ben's intelligence and show of being interested in research to better mankind, but grew disillusioned when she began to learn the ugly secrets of the island. I wonder, Vonne, if you are looking at this objectively, or just standing by your man? :nanabobo:

Here's my question of the week: Why did Tom feel compelled to share such an intimate fact with Jack? They are tight-lipped about absolutely EVERYTHING, except the details of their personal relationships?!!! Why didn't he say, "Oh, and by the way, the Alex that Ben asked about just before he went under anesthesia, knowing he might never wake again and those could well be his dying words? She's his daughter and probably the only thing he truly cares about so, boy, that would sure be the bargaining chip you would need if you wanted to get something from him."

:rolleyez:

[Masha1]

It's interesting. In our russian translation it means 'they've got their love story'. But i don't think that it's exactly about love. May be it means that they gave each other some kind of promises..or may be one of them loved another.. and this love was meek..

[Hodgepodge]

...Yes, we know Juliet is willing and able to kill, but she wasn't willing to kill Ben herself. She didn't say to Jack, "just open him up, and let me do the rest." She wanted Jack to do the dirty deed for her. Was it to cover her own a**? Could she kill others but not Ben? Because of their "history"?...Maybe she doesn't have the power base for an all out coup d'etat. I've accepted the flashcard ploy was legit. She wanted Ben dead! Having Jack do it leaves her hands boold free. It also allows her to solidify control of the "Others".

I've asked this in another thread, I'd like to ask it here as well. When Tom told Juliet to leave the operating room, he asked Jack, "...did Juliet really ask you to kill him?" The idea he would entertain the thought speaks volumes. Has she tried to kill him before? Have Ben and Juliet been getting along so poorly the idea that she'd have him killed, is not out of the realm of possibility?


...Here's my question of the week: Why did Tom feel compelled to share such an intimate fact with Jack? They are tight-lipped about absolutely EVERYTHING, except the details of their personal relationships?!!! Why didn't he say, "Oh, and by the way, the Alex that Ben asked about just before he went under anesthesia, knowing he might never wake again and those could well be his dying words? She's his daughter and probably the only thing he truly cares about so, boy, that would sure be the bargaining chip you would need if you wanted to get something from him."

:rolleyez:I'm sure you will agree, Tom's not as bloodthirsty as Danny Pickett. He's got a rather strange sence of humor. Remember when Kate exposed his fake beard? "Well, thanks for pointing that out, Kate. I can't tell you how much this thing itches." All with a little chuckle! Here's another one! Remember when she says she's not going to shower in front of him? "Kate, you're not my type." Along with another chuckle! I pointed out these two incidents, because I get the impression, Tom's a good ole boy! Yeah, he follows orders and does somethings not quite kosher, but he hasn't lost his sense of humor. I believe when he told Jack, "they've got history," he was just passing the time. JMO!

[snivellusfriend]

Yes, we know Juliet is willing and able to kill, but she wasn't willing to kill Ben herself. She didn't say to Jack, "just open him up, and let me do the rest." She wanted Jack to do the dirty deed for her. Was it to cover her own a**? Could she kill others but not Ben? Because of their "history"?

That's very interesting!

My gut feeling has been that Ben is the one with the stronger attachment.

I think so, too; He has Juliet by his side a lot.

Here's my question of the week: Why did Tom feel compelled to share such an intimate fact with Jack?

My guess is that Tom revealed that Juliet and Ben had a relationship because he was beginning to trust Jack.

When Tom told Juliet to leave the operating room, he asked Jack, "...did Juliet really ask you to kill him?" The idea he would entertain the thought speaks volumes. Has she tried to kill him before? Have Ben and Juliet been getting along so poorly the idea that she'd have him killed, is not out of the realm of possibility?

I'm guessing that Tom was slightly surprised that Juliet had asked Jack to kill Ben, but not surprised that she wanted him dead.

[Susan B Anthony]

I've asked this in another thread, I'd like to ask it here as well. When Tom told Juliet to leave the operating room, he asked Jack, "...did Juliet really ask you to kill him?" The idea he would entertain the thought speaks volumes. Has she tried to kill him before? Have Ben and Juliet been getting along so poorly the idea that she'd have him killed, is not out of the realm of possibility?

Interesting. Tom did not come across as shocked or horrified, just curious. Clearly Juliet's possible threat to Ben's life was not a surprise. (By the way, Juliet could have played it a lot cooler and not looked so guilty when Jack exposed her plot. A simple, "come on Jack, now you're really getting desperate," accompanied by a disinterested eye-roll would have worked better.) Perhaps Tom and Ben had discussed it before, realizing just how desperate Juliet was to get off the island. First the book club, then a knife between the shoulder-blades.

It would make sense that, even realizing she wanted him dead, Ben would have kept Juliet in her position of authority. Keep your friends close, your enemies closer.

I also found it interesting that Tom ordered Juliet out of the operating room, and she obeyed. My guess is that Juliet didn't take orders from anybody other than Ben, and certainly not Tom, who, as Hodge pointed out, appears to be mostly a good natured stooge. You can almost picture him choking back laughter as he played his Mr. Friendly role. But I also see Tom as one of Ben's most loyal followers. It seems a threat to Ben was enough to make him take control of the situation. I wonder who Ben left instructions with in the event he didn't make it through the surgery, by accident or design.

[Hodgepodge]

...I also found it interesting that Tom ordered Juliet out of the operating room, and she obeyed. My guess is that Juliet didn't take orders from anybody other than Ben, and certainly not Tom, who, as Hodge pointed out, appears to be mostly a good natured stooge. You can almost picture him choking back laughter as he played his Mr. Friendly role. But I also see Tom as one of Ben's most loyal followers. It seems a threat to Ben was enough to make him take control of the situation. I wonder who Ben left instructions with in the event he didn't make it through the surgery, by accident or design.SBA, I was just watching the episode again, and you bring up a good point. It was obvious Tom was next in command. So, to answer your question, I'd say Tom was Ben's executor.

With Tom next in line to rule, so to speak, I'm left with a question I thought I'd answered. Did Juliet act alone? Now, I think there's a good chance she did. :confused:

[vonnegut]

Good posts, guys.

I still maintain that Juliet is the "woman scorned." All of her actions and attitudes towards Ben seem motivated by spite. If she was in a relationship with him, and had ended up "dumping" him, her attitude would likely be one of tired annoyance or indifference, maybe with a sprinkling of amused nostalgia. But that isn't her attitude-- it's Ben's. He certainly acts a bit intimate towards her at times... the "soup" comment, notably... but he doesn't seem OBSESSED with her, angry and spiteful towards her... scorned, basically. That's how SHE acts. She is a big ball of emotion towards him, mostly rage and hate... I think that he hurt her, and that she is vengeful and pissed off about it.

Interesting observations about Tom. I spent a little bit of thought about him when I had my original ideas about "Fenry" mostly because of the line "Him! He's nothing!"

I think it was very telling that he ordered Juliet out of the room. I think that we've all been giving her a little more status than she actually has. (Perhaps she had an implied status at one point, because of her relationship with Ben-- given her history in the flashback [she apparently had married her boss-- look at her reaction to the asian Lab assistant. The "of course you are" comment made it seem like perhaps she started out as an assistant to Burke], that wouldn't be unlike her).

Honestly, I think the entire picture leads up to this:

Juliet was recruited and shipped off to the island to do her research. She became involved with "the man in charge" (a repeat of her relationship with Burke), but after some type of rift, they split (and I don't think that she was the one that dumped him). She is already upset because she has been tricked and taken from her home, and this is the last straw for her. She starts to plot. This is where it gets interesting-- what did she think that she would gain, with the death of Ben?

Part of my theory is that she wanted Ben to die because she was emotionally involved and angry with him. Angry women do crazy things sometimes (not that I would know about that... :whistling ).

But she's not a STUPID woman. So she has to have some type of plan behind the madness.

[Susan B Anthony]

Maybe it wasn't a dumping in the traditional sense of the word (I write on this lovely Valentine's evening.....).

How about this scenario:

Juliet was recruited and shipped off to the island. She has misgivings from the beginning because of the bus incident, but goes because for the opportunity to advance her research. She falls for Ben, believing him to be a benevolent servant of mankind? brilliant and dedicated scientist? whatever. He falls for her because, let's face it, a new face on the island is going to be appealing just for its novelty. As time goes on, Juliet sees Ben's dark side, his willingness to do whatever is necessary to advance his goals. Juliet grows disillusioned with the project and with Ben. Perhaps she tries to persuade Ben to abandon the project, let her go home, change his ways, etc. Ben refuses to change, and Juliet ends the relationship. Ben still wants the relationship, but isn't willing to become something he is not, just for her. Juliet wants her illusion of Ben, but not who he really is.

I think Juliet's position may have been operating outside the chain of command. She brings her special skills, and is valued for that, but I am starting to think she doesn't have the full picture of what is happening on the island. The surgery episode certainly shows Tom as a very high operative.

Damn it, where is Miss Klugh?!!!! I'd like to see her reaction to Juliet's little stunt!

[Hodgepodge]

I like both scenarios ladies! :) They both ring true.

SBA, I posted in the April Grace - Bea forum yesesterday your exact sentiments. How could TPTB show us someone with that air of power and control, and not show her again. I'm hoping we see her again before the season is over.