View Full Version : Claire: "My mom will disown me" season 1
sawyerhasbestlines
03-15-07, 02:29 PM
Remember Claire talking about how her mom would disown her around the time Malkin makes his appearance. (season 1)
How would mom disown her, if she was in a coma through her whole pregnancy?
Did the plotline change? Or am I missing something. What do you think?
vonnegut
03-15-07, 02:31 PM
The same thing occured to me, SHBL.
Also, when she went to the psychic, didn't she say, "Does my mother know?" or something to that effect?
Well, it could be that she's just a little delusional about it.
interplanetjanet
03-15-07, 02:41 PM
Relevant quotes, all praise to Spooky:
THOMAS: Hey, Claire? If we, if we wanted to we could do this.
CLAIRE: Stop it.
THOMAS: No. I'm not kidding.
CLAIRE: My mom would disown me.
THOMAS: She basically has already.
CLAIRE: Yeah. But with what? My five dollar an hour job at Fish and Fry?
THOMAS: You're not the only one with a job, you know. I mean, I've got my painting.
...
MALKIN: Ah, so when did you find out?
CLAIRE: What?
MALKIN: About the baby.
CLAIRE: Two days ago.
RACHEL: She hasn't told her mom yet -- [Claire shushes her].
[The Psychic opens his eyes and looks concerned.]
CLAIRE: What? Should I not tell her? [the psychic looks up at her, looking worried, frightened]. What? What is it?
MALKIN: I'm sorry [he gives her money back]. I can't, I can't --
It puts a different spin on those scenes, but not ruled out.
If Claire blames herself for the accident, it's not impossible that she was vague to her 20-something friends about what happened 7(?) years ago with her mother...just a "we can't talk much" thing.
So, probably retconned, but not impossible.
aggiesean
03-15-07, 02:41 PM
CLAIRE: My mom would disown me.
THOMAS: She basically has already.
I got the impression from this that either
a) Thomas has never met her mother because Claire wouldn't let her. Possibly with horror stories about her. Anything rather than admit that she's in a coma because of something she did.
b) Thomas thinks Aunt Lindsay is her mother. They clearly had a strained relationship too. And Aunt Lindsay never corrected Thomas, and Claire again didn't want to tell Thomas the truth.
ETA: Or what interplanetjanet said as I was writing this. :)
:Cowdance:
juanbong
03-15-07, 02:45 PM
Remember Claire talking about how her mom would disown her around the time Malkin makes his appearance. (season 1)
How would mom disown her, if she was in a coma through her whole pregnancy?
Did the plotline change? Or am I missing something. What do you think?
The same thing occured to me, SHBL.
Also, when she went to the psychic, didn't she say, "Does my mother know?" or something to that effect?
Well, it could be that she's just a little delusional about it.
From Raised by Another S1 Ep10:
MALKIN: Ah, so when did you find out?
CLAIRE: What?
MALKIN: About the baby.
CLAIRE: Two days ago.
RACHEL: She hasn't told her mom yet -- [Claire shushes her].
[The Psychic opens his eyes and looks concerned.]
CLAIRE: What? Should I not tell her? [the psychic looks up at her, looking worried, frightened]. What? What is it?
MALKIN: I'm sorry [he gives her money back]. I can't, I can't --
CLAIRE: What were you gonna -- what did you see?
Same as IPJ's statement, pretty much.
turnip head
03-15-07, 02:49 PM
Aggie I kind of thought that maybe you option B was the case. Aunt Lindsay seemed to dislike Claire & Christian a lot. It seems that Claire changed her life after the accident, maybe she just started over without sharing her past with anyone.
Remember Claire talking about how her mom would disown her around the time Malkin makes his appearance. (season 1)
How would mom disown her, if she was in a coma through her whole pregnancy?
Did the plotline change? Or am I missing something. What do you think?
Do we know Claire's mom never woke up, even if for a brief time? Also, Clair did tell her mom she was pregnant while at her bed side. Even though she's in a coma Clair hopes her mom can still hear (remember she asked the Dr. is her mom could hear her)
carol2661
03-15-07, 03:03 PM
Claire made a lot of changes to her life since her Mom's coma. She was into the Goth-thing with the black hair, and she worked in a piercing/tattoo parlor. (How do you like the parallels to Jack with the tats?)
She works in fast food and went back blonde. (I assume she's a natural blonde, since we havent seen black roots in 80 days on the island).
I agree that there are inconsistencies in the flashbacks. If this is going to be believeable, the writers will have to make us accept that she hasn't told her friends her Mom is in a coma. Like TurnipHead said, she may have started over without telling her friends everything.
One Oh Eight
03-15-07, 03:23 PM
I personally believe it was retconned.
Sawyersgrl
03-15-07, 03:45 PM
I think that this was a major screw up. The writers dont give us enough credit for remembering past scenes, and now seems as if they have no real plan for this show. Last night's epi was a disappointment for me.
Suil Liath
03-15-07, 03:52 PM
major screw up absolutely. They're rewriting "history" as they go along because there was so much that they hadn't figured out.
And yes, the writers aren't even going over their own footsteps. With the huge collection of people on staff you'd think someone would be paying attention.
killbuckner
03-15-07, 04:01 PM
I guess they could say that Claire completely turned her life around so that when her mom did wake up she would be proud of her. But the line about how "she has pretty much disowned her already" is tough. I guess they could say that she lied to the guy about her mom being in a coma.
More likely I think that they just hadn't decided at that point that her mom was in a coma and now they have a couple of continuity errors.
LandPirate
03-15-07, 04:24 PM
my vote: writer screw up.
.
jeffeff
03-15-07, 04:42 PM
Speaking of retconning [from Raised By Another]:
CLAIRE: Do you know Catch a Falling Star? It's a song, like a lullaby.
EILEEN: Catch a falling star and put it in your pocket.
CLAIRE: My dad used to sing that to me when I was little. Do you think you could sing it to the baby once in a while?
EILEEN: Of course.
Of course, when Christian visits Claire and her mother in the hospital, he does mention that he visited her when she was little and sang to her, but if Claire was under the impression that he was dead, how would she have any memories of his singing to her? There is a possibility that her mother told her that her father used to sing "Catching a Falling Star" to her, but to me, this is a pretty weak cover-up.
Jeff Eff
sawyerhasbestlines
03-15-07, 04:57 PM
Do we know Claire's mom never woke up, even if for a brief time? Also, Clair did tell her mom she was pregnant while at her bed side. Even though she's in a coma Clair hopes her mom can still hear (remember she asked the Dr. is her mom could hear her)
Disown means 2 things: being cut off financially, and emotionally.
Financially, her mom didn't seem to be in a position to pass on wealth, so that's not the issue. And in terms of emotionally, their relationship has been acutely severed by the coma which borders on death. So even if her mom woke up and said "I disown you", it means nothing as Claire is the one in the power position, alive, and not dependent on her mother anymore anyways.
mzsandeestar
03-15-07, 05:13 PM
I remember when season one was over and they did repeats that whole summer , they skipped "Raised by Another" which I thought was one of the most important episodes.
In later recap shows from what I remember they never went back to Claire and the psychic or really did any justice to the original Claire story.
I think possibly the writer's decided to go in a slightly different direction with the Claire story after season one was over, and we just saw a continuity error that they are hoping more viewers miss.
redneck once removed
03-15-07, 05:15 PM
LOL, they should know better, nothing gets by anyone round here :p
meljo93
03-15-07, 05:29 PM
Speaking of retconning [from Raised By Another]:
CLAIRE: Do you know Catch a Falling Star? It's a song, like a lullaby.
EILEEN: Catch a falling star and put it in your pocket.
CLAIRE: My dad used to sing that to me when I was little. Do you think you could sing it to the baby once in a while?
EILEEN: Of course.
Of course, when Christian visits Claire and her mother in the hospital, he does mention that he visited her when she was little and sang to her, but if Claire was under the impression that he was dead, how would she have any memories of his singing to her? There is a possibility that her mother told her that her father used to sing "Catching a Falling Star" to her, but to me, this is a pretty weak cover-up.
Jeff Eff
Claire says that her father died when she was two. I have fleeting memories of a road trip we took when I was 2 years, 3 months old. I remember being given medicine gum that tasted awful, and my grandma singing along to Patsy Cline.
As far as the mom stuff, I too think that this is a blantant error in continuity. The earlier scenes depicted a mother that was alive and well.
RunLoganRun
03-15-07, 06:20 PM
I am also confused by Claire's latest flashback - she says that her Daddy died when she was two years old - but, didn't she say something before about her daddy abandoning her and her mother ? Which to me would mean he left them and started a new life. I need to rewatch S1 and S2...
vonnegut
03-15-07, 06:22 PM
Disown means 2 things: being cut off financially, and emotionally.
Financially, her mom didn't seem to be in a position to pass on wealth, so that's not the issue. And in terms of emotionally, their relationship has been acutely severed by the coma which borders on death. So even if her mom woke up and said "I disown you", it means nothing as Claire is the one in the power position, alive, and not dependent on her mother anymore anyways.
Well, I kind of took it as a dramatic exaggeration. I've often said that "my mom is going to disown me," but she wouldn't ever actually do it.
I think.
Isn't it possible that in that earlier scene she was talking about her aunt? Instead of trying to explain that her mother was in a coma, she talks about her aunt like she is her mom.
My guess is that her aunt took her in after the crash and took care of her, but the relationship is strained and she basically disowned her as soon as Claire turned 18. The mother figure in Claire's life has been her aunt for a few years. She isn't lying as much as she is simplifying things--for whatever reason. It is like me calling my sister-in-law my sister, or a step-father a father. Whatever.
(And no, I don't think it is different just because her mom is in a coma--calling her aunt her mom doesn't lesson her relationship with her real mom)
Smartypants
03-15-07, 06:25 PM
I think she was way too old when the accident happened to have started calling her aunt "mom" -- in the last scene when she is pregnant, she is crystal clear who mom is.
ETA: re-read your post and see you aren't saying that, but what I'm saying is - especially b/c her mom is in coma, I don't think she'd call anyone else that - it would be disrespectful
I am also confused by Claire's latest flashback - she says that her Daddy died when she was two years old - but, didn't she say something before about her daddy abandoning her and her mother ? Which to me would mean he left them and started a new life. I need to rewatch S1 and S2...
She did say that her father died when she was 2, however that was before she met Christian and knew her father was alive. The scene you are thinking of was with her and Thomas when he is talking about her father and abandonment issues. This takes place after she learns about Christian and now knows that her father did not, in fact, die when she was 2.
GerfalconCP
03-15-07, 06:35 PM
Quite honestly, I'm not sure I would want to explain to my friends how my mother was in a coma and it was all because I blew up at her while we were driving. So, I'm taking it that her boyfriend (who she never intended on having a child with, mind you) and her friends (she probably got new ones after the goth trend ended) were not told the whole story and may not even have ever met Claire's mother or been told that she's in a coma.
And, it is stretching it, but since Aunt Lindsay was very over protective of Claire when Christian came and since Christian went to see Aunt Linsay in Ana-L's flashback, I think there's a high possibility that Claire could be telling her friends that Lindsay is sort of a surrogate mother to her without explaining the entire situtation.
It's pretty clear that the writers are paying attention, I think. They remembered to add a line for Christian saying that he used to sing to her, which is a direct connection back to the episode about Claire singing to her child because her father used to for her. They also had Aunt Lindsay as a character, so they could explain to the audience who the woman was that Christian went to go and see in Ana-L's flashback.
I don't care. I was just glad to see a Calire flashback done with justice! I thought the flashback scenes were wonderful and I really enjoyed this episode. I just hope Claire and Jack never get the hots for each other ... THAT WOULD BE WEIRD! Oh, and I hope Jack has some sort of picture of his father that he can show Claire sometime when they are having a discussion, so they eventually figure out they're related and Jack eventually finds out he's an uncle! That would be a cute scene.
see you in the next life
03-15-07, 06:38 PM
Oh, and I hope Jack has some sort of picture of his father that he can show Claire sometime when they are having a discussion, so they eventually figure out they're related and Jack eventually finds out he's an uncle! That would be a cute scene.
I'll bet the Others hold the key to completing that link.
With their extensive knowledge of our Losties, I bet they have knowledge of the connection.
betseyjane
03-15-07, 06:51 PM
I got the impression that she does not tell anyone what happened to her mom from her conversion with Sun. Maybe, the guilt of her part in the accident makes her act to others as if her mother is still an active participant in her life. Reaching a little here, but Claire has never been the most stable person on the show.
interplanetjanet
03-15-07, 06:56 PM
Her friend has the line about Claire not telling her mother yet.
And it's quite possible Claire did not visit her mother often, feeling too much guilt. Or that her idea of her mother resting and listening couldn't sustain too much reality.
We saw her tell her mother she was pregnant. No reason the earlier references, for Claire, might have been horror at the idea that her mother would wake up and learn she was pregnant--first up, mommy, massive disappointment in what I've done with my life! That her mother would hate her, probably following 200 lectures to her daughter about not getting pregnant by some jerk who would abandon you.
jmb3rg3r
03-15-07, 07:36 PM
Claire said last night, when she told her mom about the prgnancy, "I should have told you a long time ago." So they may not have forgotten the previous reference but thought that was enough of a workaround.
Hodgepodge
03-15-07, 07:57 PM
I had no problem with what we know of Claire's Raised by Another episode and Par Avion. Doesn't everyone remember her asking the doctor, "can she hear us?" And the doctor saying, "we like to think so." We even saw a bit of this when she went to see her mother and asked, something to the effect, 'they turned off the television. Don't they know you love nature shows.' Then she goes about telling her still comatosed mother about the pregnancy. I think Claire took the doctors statement to heart and talked to her mother just like she could hear her. So, the idea of her mother disowning her, is perfectly understandable to me.
The idea she wouldn't take a girlfriend or boyfriend to see her mother in the hospital also make sense. And, substituting her aunt as a mother-figure, someone she could show to friends also is a viable scenario.
sara333
03-15-07, 09:26 PM
I think what Par Avion showed us (among many things) is that Claire is in complete denial about her mother's coma. She won't admit that her mother is pretty much gone. She still talks to her as if she were alive so Claire still lives her life as if her mother were completely alive. She said her mother would "disown" her because if her mother could speak to her, Claire believes that is what she will think.
So I think Claire's past episodes can match up with Par Avion.
When her friend tells the psychic that Claire hasn't told her mother yet.. it is true... We see Claire tell her mother later in this episode.
Yeah she's in a coma, but Claire will not accept that her mother is already practically dead. This was exemplified in her conversation with Christian.
The Central Scrutinizer
03-15-07, 09:29 PM
"My mom will disown me." That's the sound of a girl hopeful that her mom wakes up and even has the opportunity to disown her. Or is refusing to admit the reality of the situation. Part of her island catharsis is finally coming to grips with the fact her mother is in a coma.
"Your mom pretty much has disowned you already" alludes that Claire & her mom had a rocky relationship, which Claire confirmed by admitting she said horrible things to her right before the car accident. I see no problem there.
The real issue here is whether Claire telekenitically caused the accident by wishing her mother to die. I can't believe that theory hasn't been advanced yet...
ETA: what sara333 said.
rvturnage
03-15-07, 09:33 PM
"My mom will disown me." That's the sound of a girl hopeful that her mom wakes up and even has the opportunity to disown her. Or is refusing to admit the reality of the situation. Part of her island catharsis is finally coming to grips with the fact her mother is in a coma.
"Your mom pretty much has disowned you already" alludes that Claire & her mom had a rocky relationship, which Claire confirmed by admitting she said horrible things to her right before the car accident. I see no problem there.
Exactly. Great post, CS. I've been trying to figure out how to say that...now I don't have to. :)
The real issue here is whether Claire telekenitically caused the accident by wishing her mother to die. I can't believe that theory hasn't been advanced yet...
I tried (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32041), but I guess it got lost in the shuffle.
The real issue here is whether Claire telekenitically caused the accident by wishing her mother to die. I can't believe that theory hasn't been advanced yet...
That would be the most ridiculous manipulation of a deeply rooted character motive. When Claire holds on to the hope of her mom, she is riddled with guilt about how she has treated her mother through the years. Guilt is a universal. Telekinesis is, well, too much. I believe I would quit watching were that ever to be the case.
rvturnage
03-15-07, 09:40 PM
That would be the most ridiculous manipulation of a deeply rooted character motive. When Claire holds on to the hope of her mom, she is riddled with guilt about how she has treated her mother through the years. Guilt is a universal. Telekinesis is, well, too much. I believe I would quit watching were that ever to be the case.
Not that she consciously did it, but rather subconsciously willed the truck to hit them...not even knowing she had the ability. Much like Walt and the bird hitting his glass door. Or maybe even Juliette and the bus that hit her ex husband.
[/threadjack]
rt
sawyerhasbestlines
03-15-07, 09:54 PM
I would think that if Claire's mom actually came out of a coma, she would have a new appreciation for life - for her grandchild and for her own. It's a kind of thing that puts things in perspective quelling prior mother daughter battles.
And I find it hard to believe that Claire would still want to give up her child while her mother is in a coma, especially when she respected and marveled at her own mother's ability to raise her. That sounds like turning point in character development, the kind of thing to give Claire the strength and courage to raise her own child.
So I don't understand the psychic storyline. Unless her friend is in on it and got her there. Also, Claire supposedly used birth control. So how did this girl get pregnant.
-----
Appreciate the comments above regarding the position of Aunt Lindsey in the family. I'm curious as to why she has so much power in their little family unit, or what happened in the past that made her take such a strong stance.
-----
Sara, nice post above regarding Claire in denial. Very good point.
The conversation between Claire and Thomas is just their different points of view or ways of looking at things.
I'm thinking since Claire and her mom were fighting in the car maybe her mom hinted at disowning Claire. Then the accident and coma. Claire's POV is she says to Thomas my mom would disown me, as if she's really not in the coma (and showing that Claire's in denial, but has faith). Thomas' POV (he's more of a realist), she basically already has, because she threatened it, those were her last words/memory, and she won't be waking up.
OK, so the Scrutinizer beat me to it. Sorry all.
SpacedinLost
03-15-07, 09:57 PM
[quote=Hodgepodge;1392057]I had no problem with what we know of Claire's Raised by Another episode and Par Avion. Doesn't everyone remember her asking the doctor, "can she hear us?" And the doctor saying, "we like to think so." We even saw a bit of this when she went to see her mother and asked, something to the effect, 'they turned off the television. Don't they know you love nature shows.' Then she goes about telling her still comatosed mother about the pregnancy. I think Claire took the doctors statement to heart and talked to her mother just like she could hear her. So, the idea of her mother disowning her, is perfectly understandable to me.
quote]
I completely agree. How many times have any of us said, "My mother (father) would kill me if she/he knew x" ?? Obviously it doesn't matter if the person's in the position to do it or not-- it's not a statement meant to be taken literally.
Also, I work in hospice, and we ALWAYS tell families to assume the patient can hear- even when they're actively dying and unresponsive. It's widely believed that hearing is one of the last of the senses to "go." Also, people whose loved ones are in coma often speak about them as they were when they were well. It's a way of coping... (Eg: "she loves to watch nature shows" -- even though she can no longer watch them. Or "She'd disown me" -- even though she's not capable of doing it now). This may have been Claire's coping mechanism.
As for the "she already has" reply-- I dunno bout that part (tho the aunt as mother figure makes sense). I think it could very well be a writer slip-up, though.
vonnegut
03-15-07, 10:01 PM
Also, Claire supposedly used birth control. So how did this girl get pregnant.
I've known SEVERAL people who got pregnant while on birth control. All you have to do is miss one day.
sawyerhasbestlines
03-15-07, 10:05 PM
I've known SEVERAL people who got pregnant while on birth control. All you have to do is miss one day.
I was trying to lure someone into a conversation paralleling Locke's immaculate conception, Sun's pregnancy, and Widmore pregnancy paraphilnalia, and hinting that maybe they weren't birth control pills, but one of Juliette's concoctions.
jmb3rg3r
03-15-07, 10:09 PM
The real issue here is whether Claire telekenitically caused the accident by wishing her mother to die. I can't believe that theory hasn't been advanced yet...
ETA: what sara333 said.
Got your back... :)
http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1391891&postcount=4
Continuity, phffftttt! That's called nitpicking with TPTB, we're not supposed to be remembering things like that.
Hodgepodge
03-15-07, 10:35 PM
...The real issue here is whether Claire telekenitically caused the accident by wishing her mother to die. I can't believe that theory hasn't been advanced yet...TCS, I'm going to post my comment to this quote in Rvturnage's thread.
There are two ways IMO.
1. They screwed up, my take on it.
2. After switching my brain to convoluted mode this is all I could come up with. Claire is guilty knowing that her mother, who went through difficulty raising a child alone, would be extremely disappointed in her and would throw a fit, if she could.
I don't know if they screwed up or not. I can't imagine that they made those comments in S1, threw us the red herring with Claire's Aunt in S2 and showed us what they did last night without some sort of endgame in mind. Good luck figuring it out though.
Fletcher
03-15-07, 10:54 PM
This thread's made me feel a little better about what I immediately thought was an error last night. I still think it's quite possible the writers hadn't fully fleshed out Claire's story in "Raised By Another," but as long as they can provide a plausible explanation then I really don't care.
RunLoganRun
03-16-07, 03:39 AM
She did say that her father died when she was 2, however that was before she met Christian and knew her father was alive. The scene you are thinking of was with her and Thomas when he is talking about her father and abandonment issues. This takes place after she learns about Christian and now knows that her father did not, in fact, die when she was 2.
What I meant was that the part about Claire being told that her father was dead seemed like a recent add-on by the writers. It was not required and just hurts her character motivation - she is more likely to argue with her boyfriend about abandonment issues if she has had them her entire life. Also, it would better explain her goth phase if she thinks daddy left her and doesn't care about her. But, now with this new tidbit - the abandonment scars are a recent issue and have not been building up inside of her for years and years.
Hodgepodge
03-16-07, 06:12 PM
I thought of something last night while driving home.
We've been discussing the likelihood Claire may've referred to her aunt as her mother to friends. That they probably started living together after the accident.
I thought about the scene from Two for the Road, where Ana-Lucia drives Christian to a house in Sydney. Remember, he got her to accompany him to Australia because there might be trouble. "What I'm doing down there could be a little dangerous and I need someone to protect me -- a bodyguard. It's perfect for someone who stopped being a cop."
From what we've learned from Par Avion, it's apparent Christian was arguing with the aunt on that rainy night. We saw her hatred for Christian at the hospital. One more thing! He's paying for the long term hospital care of Claire's mother, and from a piece of dialog from that same Two for the Road episode, he's also paying the mortgage on their house. We know, he's spent some time with Claire when she was young. We also learned he heard about the accident from a colleague and rushed down to Australia. I think the affair took place in Sydney instead of the U.S. I'm curious why Christian was in Australia at this time. Was he working or visiting?
Gilligan
03-16-07, 06:24 PM
I know football coaches break down game film until they have a splice for each position: a dvd with just the quarterback's plays, with just the running back's, etc.
It's hard for me to believe that TPTB don't have dvd's with just Claire's flashbacks (and Jack's and Kate's and Locke's, etc.) that they review before writing an episode centering around a certain character. So I'm sure they knew they had fudged a little here, but that they thought by doing so,they could tell a better story. They don't expect people to focus so heavily on the dialogue of old episodes.
Still, it does seem they could have written around this, doesn't it?
Farmer Ted
03-16-07, 06:26 PM
I don't know if they screwed up or not. I can't imagine that they made those comments in S1, threw us the red herring with Claire's Aunt in S2 and showed us what they did last night without some sort of endgame in mind. Good luck figuring it out though.
I agree with you. I don't see what the big deal is with Claire saying "My mom would disown me." She could have continued the sentence "My mom would disown me if she weren't in a coma." What's inconsistent about that? Clearly, her BF would know that her mother was in a coma, and there would be no need to finish the thought. Besides, even if her mother was dead at the time, Claire is nutty enough to think she could hold a seance and talk to her mother that way.
princeofamerica
03-16-07, 07:15 PM
I agree with you. I don't see what the big deal is with Claire saying "My mom would disown me." She could have continued the sentence "My mom would disown me if she weren't in a coma." What's inconsistent about that? Clearly, her BF would know that her mother was in a coma, and there would be no need to finish the thought. Besides, even if her mother was dead at the time, Claire is nutty enough to think she could hold a seance and talk to her mother that way.
She's also nutty enough to believe that her mother might one day come out of a Coma.
sawyerhasbestlines
03-16-07, 07:21 PM
And apparantly nutty enough to think if her mom came out of a coma, half her brain wouldn't be scrambled eggs, and that she'd would lose so much perspective of the situation, she'd focus all her remaining energy on disowning Claire for giving her a grandchild.
That sounds about right.
I thought about the scene from Two for the Road, where Ana-Lucia drives Christian to a house in Sydney. Remember, he got her to accompany him to Australia because there might be trouble. "What I'm doing down there could be a little dangerous and I need someone to protect me -- a bodyguard. It's perfect for someone who stopped being a cop."
We also learned he heard about the accident from a colleague and rushed down to Australia. I think the affair took place in Sydney instead of the U.S. I'm curious why Christian was in Australia at this time. Was he working or visiting?
I wonder if this quote from Two is another rewrite glitch like the disowning comment. When Christian came to the hospital, there didn't seem to be much bodyguard-necessitating danger. Just an angry sister. Why did he need AL there?
Do we know for sure where in the timeline his visit with AL took place? I can't recall whether the woman who answered the door was really Claire's mom or her aunt. Was there ever another man involved in Carol's life?
You've also made me really interested in the colleague now.
WayneInNYC
03-16-07, 09:19 PM
Here's a thought.
Perhaps Claire had just told her mom that she might be pregnant and that's what they were fighting about in the car when they crashed.
This could coincide with her showing up at the hospital and telling her that she WAS indeed preggers.
OK, I'm probably missing something, but - couldn't the FB where she just found out she's pregnant have happened before the accident? Or was there something that placed it at more than 9 months later?
Claire had gone through a transition. She grew her dyed black hair out to blonde by the time she announced her pregnancy. Carol had been moved from the emergency area to a long-time care wing/room.
Clearly, much time had passed.
Also, Claire was not at all concerned about her baby after the crash because there was no baby.
AreYouLost?
03-16-07, 10:36 PM
Her hair was blonde when she found out she was preggers too.
Claire had gone through a transition. She grew her dyed black hair out to blonde by the time she announced her pregnancy. Carol had been moved from the emergency area to a long-time care wing/room.
Clearly, much time had passed.
Also, Claire was not at all concerned about her baby after the crash because there was no baby.
I see what you're saying, and you could be right. However, none of that is exactly iron-clad. I think she could get her hair back to blonde without growing it out, and I would think her mother would be in a long-term care room in months and not years. Also, we didn't exactly see everything that happened immediately after the accident, only a two minute scene with the policeman, so it doesn't necessarily follow that she definitely wasn't pregnant at that point. Also, when she told her mother "I should have told you a long time ago", she might have meant before the accident.
AreYouLost?
03-16-07, 10:42 PM
She wasn't pregnant when she crashed the vehicle.
Her hair was blonde when she found out she was preggers too.
yeah, it would be a little strange, but it still doesn't mean it wasn't black for a short time in between.
Actually, I have no problem believing that TPTB just decided to ignore the previous FB, but I'm just trying to understand if there's something that would definitely establish that she wasn't pregnant at the time of the accident. That seems to me like a better explanation than her worrying about her comatose mother disowning her.
She wasn't pregnant when she crashed the vehicle.
OK, what I'm asking is how you know that.
rvturnage
03-16-07, 10:46 PM
I don't see what's so difficult to understand, myself....Farmer Ted said it perfectly here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1394668&postcount=50).
I don't see anything that disregards the previous FB's...it works...not perfect, but it makes sense.
Hodgepodge
03-16-07, 10:47 PM
I wonder if this quote from Two is another rewrite glitch like the disowning comment. When Christian came to the hospital, there didn't seem to be much bodyguard-necessitating danger. Just an angry sister. Why did he need AL there?
Do we know for sure where in the timeline his visit with AL took place? I can't recall whether the woman who answered the door was really Claire's mom or her aunt. Was there ever another man involved in Carol's life?
You've also made me really interested in the colleague now.I got the impresseion Par Avion took place before Two for the Roads. Probably quit a bit of time had passed.
Christian was outed by Jack, and had lost his medical position and license by the time he arrives in Sydney to see Claire in Two for the Road.
As I mentioned in my previous post, Christian was quit aware of the aunt's feelings toward him, and probably thought she might resort to gun play. This is probably the reason he brought Ana-Lucia for back up.
And, just because you mentioned the colleague, I'm curious now! :nanabobo:
rvturnage
03-16-07, 10:48 PM
OK, what I'm asking is how you know that.
Because there was no mention of her being pregnant. She wasn't concerned about it, no doctor came in and asked about it.
If she had been pregnant at that time, TPTB would have pointed it out to us.
GerfalconCP
03-16-07, 10:48 PM
We know that she couldn't be preggers for a couple of reasons:
A) Claire finds out for the first time that she is pregnant during her flashback in her first flashback episode "Raised by Another". In that episode she has blonde hair. Her boyfriend suggests that maybe she read the test wrong. This would infer that the test was taken VERY recently, because she is just telling him.
B) Claire has dark black hair when she is in the crash. When she finds out that she is pregnant, she has nice blonde hair.
C) There is no mention of her boyfriend in "Par Avion".
D) If she was preggers, the doctors would have told her when she got her cast, etc. that either the child was dead, alive ... OR AT LEAST THAT SHE WAS PREGNANT! They would recognize something like a pregnancy pretty easily ...
So, there's four good reasons.
Farmer Ted
03-16-07, 10:56 PM
I don't see what's so difficult to understand, myself....Farmer Ted said it perfectly here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1394668&postcount=50).
Clearly, you misheard me. I never do anything perfectly.
Maybe perfectly dumb.
So, there's four good reasons.
Well, I've already talked about a few of those, and none of them are exactly hard evidence. I could see before I asked that everything kind of points to the prenancy happening later, I was just wondering if I had missed something a little more definite. I guess the answer is no.
I know some of you can't stand it when you've made up your mind and someone else hasn't and wants to discuss something, so I apologize.
AreYouLost?
03-16-07, 11:01 PM
We know that she couldn't be preggers for a couple of reasons:
A) Claire finds out for the first time that she is pregnant during her flashback in her first flashback episode "Raised by Another". In that episode she has blonde hair. Her boyfriend suggests that maybe she read the test wrong. This would infer that the test was taken VERY recently, because she is just telling him.
B) Claire has dark black hair when she is in the crash. When she finds out that she is pregnant, she has nice blonde hair.
C) There is no mention of her boyfriend in "Par Avion".
D) If she was preggers, the doctors would have told her when she got her cast, etc. that either the child was dead, alive ... OR AT LEAST THAT SHE WAS PREGNANT! They would recognize something like a pregnancy pretty easily ...
So, there's four good reasons.
Exactly!
If she had been pregnant at that time, TPTB would have pointed it out to us.
That's an assumption on your part, and although it may be a good one, it doesn't prove anything.
Sorry, it's probably my fault for not being clear in my original post. I was looking for something definite - for example, someone mentioning that 2 years had passed.
rvturnage
03-16-07, 11:08 PM
Clearly, you misheard me. I never do anything perfectly.
Maybe perfectly dumb.
Ahhh crap. You're right. I disagree with everything you said. :D
Obvious continuity error, but one that can be easily retconned.
dharmaqueen
03-17-07, 03:32 AM
I was just glad to see a Calire flashback done with justice! I thought the flashback scenes were wonderful and I really enjoyed this episode. I just hope Claire and Jack never get the hots for each other ... THAT WOULD BE WEIRD! Oh, and I hope Jack has some sort of picture of his father that he can show Claire sometime when they are having a discussion, so they eventually figure out they're related and Jack eventually finds out he's an uncle! That would be a cute scene.
That is totally what I thought!
As for the discussion regarding Claire's pregnancy timing. I had the sense from the overall tone of the flashback that Claire's mom had been in a coma for a long time. She was able to see many programs and spend lots of time...years in fact ...at her mom's bedside watching nature programs and talking to her. It has changed her catagorically, she is no longer the brunette child, petulent and concerned with only her warefare, but now has learned what it means to care for her mom in her comatose state. It is this change of years, not of <9months, that allows her to "not give up" on Charlie.
angelripper
03-17-07, 04:49 AM
When Claire is talking to her mom in the hospital bed she apologizes for the fight they had in the car and says she's sorry for saying 'I hate you.' It may not have originally been planned that Christian was her father but the writers are maintaining continuity by making them embroiled in a fight. Her mother could have disowned her for whatever they were fighting about. Claire caused the accident that put her mother in the coma because she was so caught up in the fight. The scene where she cant give any details about the accident to the cop shows us that she was too busy fighting to pay attention to driving. It was the fight that caused her to get in the accident. Now she must live with an extreme amount of guilt, knowing that whatever happened that caused the fight lead to her mother's coma. It could have easily been about Claire's gothic/piercer lifestyle which is why she's changed her appearance so drastically since the accident. I don't think it's too far of a stretch for Claire to be talking about her mother like her opinions matter seeing that she hasn't accepted her vegetable status.
I got the impresseion Par Avion took place before Two for the Roads. Probably quit a bit of time had passed.
Christian was outed by Jack, and had lost his medical position and license by the time he arrives in Sydney to see Claire in Two for the Road.
As I mentioned in my previous post, Christian was quit aware of the aunt's feelings toward him, and probably thought she might resort to gun play. This is probably the reason he brought Ana-Lucia for back up.
And, just because you mentioned the colleague, I'm curious now! :nanabobo:
Gun play? Really? If that's the case, it seems extreme - almost as if he planned to do something more forceful than talk. Take her back with him, perhaps?
If Par Avion FBs are before Two For The Road, she would be living with her aunt (as a sort of "mother" that other posters have suggested).
If Two For The Road is before Par Avion FB's, then there leaves much to be discovered about Christian's relationship with Carol before the crash. I'm wondering about that argument Claire and Carol had as well. It seems like a means to an end, but also smacks of something TPTB might use later.
ILUVBEN
03-17-07, 05:16 PM
[QUOTE=Kylie;1396034]Gun play? Really? If that's the case, it seems extreme - almost as if he planned to do something more forceful than talk. Take her back with him, perhaps?
I think you may be on to something... we don't know why Christian wanted to talk with Claire (it could be to discuss pulling the plug or it could be to discuss coming back to LA with him, who knows. Do we know exactly how he died? I can't remember...is there a possibility that he was "offed" by someone who didn't want him involved? The reason I wonder this...the "psychic", who from my recollections turned out to not be a psychic at all, but a scam artist, starts harrassing Claire to not give the baby away, and eventually baits Claire to get on the plane with the premise of giving the baby to a couple in LA...
Ok, my question is....how does Christian fit into the situation...how does the "psychic" fit into the situation and what is the BIG DEAL about Claire's baby that a "stranger is so concerned..."
Ok, one other question...why would a police officer be tactless enough to call Claire's mother's situation a fatality....I don't care how much of a vegetable she might be, that is either meaningful (in supporting that Claire is not seeing the real situation...ie. she's nutty) or that officer is very tactless.
I apologize if I've forgotten a detail that answers the above questions, please help me to remember if I am missing something important that I may have forgotten that makes sense of this all. Thanks.
Loveriot
03-17-07, 05:43 PM
So are there others besides me that feels that it was not the original story to have Jack and Claire be half siblings? It was a result of the fans' speculations after Two for the Road aired?
Cadetak
03-17-07, 07:32 PM
One possible explanation for "My mother would disown me" would be that Clair still expected her mother to wake up and after she woke up she would be upset that her daughter is pregnant. And the statement "She basically already has" could mean that Clair's mother already basically disowned her before the accident.
More probably it is a continuity error...which always happens when you retcon something.
Ok, one other question...why would a police officer be tactless enough to call Claire's mother's situation a fatality....I don't care how much of a vegetable she might be, that is either meaningful (in supporting that Claire is not seeing the real situation...ie. she's nutty) or that officer is very tactless.
I thought this too when I saw it. I expected him to come back with something like "oh you haven't heard?" but it turned out Claire was right. There were a thousand ways he could have phrased his reply and he chose that one.
I'm not quite on board with the idea that TPTB only added in the Jack and Claire connection after fan speculation. If memory serves, the speculation became most prevalent after Two for the Road and it was based on evident information. The seed (i.e. the daughter storyline) was planted on purpose.
What we may be looking at with the "disowning" problem is the earliest stages of Claire's backstory developed in Season One with Raised and then a new decision to develop that backstory to connect with Christian in Two for the Road. Par Avion, then, has been waiting for its turn since last season.
I can't recall key speculation points before Two but correct me if I am wrong. It may have been before my time on the boards.
CatWoman
03-17-07, 08:48 PM
I think there is another storyline mix-up with the Claire story. When Christian and AL are in Australia to see his daughter, he goes up to Claire's mothers door - Claire's mom answers and won't tell Christian where his daughter is. How could the woman at the door be Claire's mother if she is in a coma??????????
Farmer Ted
03-17-07, 08:49 PM
I think there is another storyline mix-up with the Claire story. When Christian and AL are in Australia to see his daughter, he goes up to Claire's mothers door - Claire's mom answers and won't tell Christian where his daughter is. How could the woman at the door be Claire's mother if she is in a coma??????????
That was Claire's aunt.
CatWoman
03-17-07, 08:50 PM
CATWOMAN
Farmer Ted
03-17-07, 08:53 PM
CATWOMAN
Farmer Ted
Hodgepodge
03-18-07, 12:00 AM
Gun play? Really? If that's the case, it seems extreme - almost as if he planned to do something more forceful than talk. Take her back with him, perhaps?...
I think you may be on to something... we don't know why Christian wanted to talk with Claire (it could be to discuss pulling the plug or it could be to discuss coming back to LA with him, who knows. Do we know exactly how he died? I can't remember...is there a possibility that he was "offed" by someone who didn't want him involved?...Well, according to the transcripts of Two for the Road, when Christian was told to leave, he tried to force himself into the house. Remember, this is when Ana-Lucia came running and pulled him back to the car. Now this woman's name was Lindsey. In Par Avion, was the aunt's name ever used? Did Christian refer to her by name? What about Claire, did she refer to her as aunt Lindsey?
According the the Medical Examiner in White Rabbit, "The police found him in an alley in Queens Cross. Now, a tox screen showed a blood alcohol content, which for a man of his size, probably brought on myocardial infarction - a sizable, and fatal heat-attack." There didn't seem to be any foul play, but who really knows for sure.
ILUVBEN
03-18-07, 12:06 AM
Well, according to the transcripts of Two for the Road, when Christian was told to leave, he tried to force himself into the house. Remember, this is when Ana-Lucia came running and pulled him back to the car. Now this woman's name was Lindsey. In Par Avion, was the aunt's name ever used? Did Christian refer to her by name? What about Claire, did she refer to her as aunt Lindsey?
According the the Medical Examiner in White Rabbit, "The police found him in an alley in Queens Cross. Now, a tox screen showed a blood alcohol content, which for a man of his size, probably brought on myocardial infarction - a sizable, and fatal heat-attack." There didn't seem to be any foul play, but who really knows for sure.
I do remember that now, thank you...Christian left Anna Lucia at the bar, he went in, she left, that's where he met Sawyer they talked, drank a while and went separate ways. After that though, there's no info regarding the events other than what the coroner reported...Did jack see a body? It's certain that he's dead right? It's just that I just feel his death is more than coincidental in navigating Jack to this island, and the psychic guy pushing Claire to get on the plane, it just seems like something's up, it smells rotten
Well, according to the transcripts of Two for the Road, when Christian was told to leave, he tried to force himself into the house. Remember, this is when Ana-Lucia came running and pulled him back to the car. Now this woman's name was Lindsey. In Par Avion, was the aunt's name ever used? Did Christian refer to her by name? What about Claire, did she refer to her as aunt Lindsey?
Yes, the aunt's name was Lindsey -- Christian (and I believe Claire) used it. He also referred to Claire's mother as Carol.
Hodgepodge
03-18-07, 12:19 AM
...After that though, there's no info regarding the events other than what the coroner reported...Did jack see a body? It's certain that he's dead right? It's just that I just feel his death is more than coincidental in navigating Jack to this island, and the psychic guy pushing Claire to get on the plane, it just seems like something's up, it smells rottenOh ILUVBEN, now you've gone and done it. :nanabobo: Clayseason1 will be visiting this post real soon. So, I'll say hi! :nanabobo:
Jack saw a body and recognized his father Christian. But, accoring to CS there was no "Y" incision to indicated the ME performed an autopsy. She thinks Christian maybe alive and running around the island. And, as I'm sure you remember, Jack's seen him on several occasions doing just that.
ILUVBEN
03-18-07, 01:03 AM
Oh ILUVBEN, now you've gone and done it. :nanabobo: Clayseason1 will be visiting this post real soon. So, I'll say hi! :nanabobo:
Jack saw a body and recognized his father Christian. But, accoring to CS there was no "Y" incision to indicated the ME performed an autopsy. She thinks Christian maybe alive and running around the island. And, as I'm sure you remember, Jack's seen him on several occasions doing just that.
AND........THE CASKET WAS EMPTY!!!!!!!!! (dramatic music plays here)
Sorry for dredging up old topics.:D
CatWoman
03-28-07, 01:33 AM
Thanks alot for clearing that up for me. As we know, Claire's aunt could not stand Christian Shepherd.
Thanks again!
TenmaNeko
03-28-07, 03:29 AM
I've known SEVERAL people who got pregnant while on birth control. All you have to do is miss one day.
Heh, my mom didn't even miss a day. But here I am nonetheless!
And it is only 95% effective ;-)
hallad69
03-28-07, 01:21 PM
Is it just me, or does anyone else suspect that perhaps Christian had a hand in Tom's decision to leave Claire. Perhaps even influencing Claire's friend to go and see the "psychic" ?
major screw up absolutely. They're rewriting "history" as they go along because there was so much that they hadn't figured out.
And yes, the writers aren't even going over their own footsteps. With the huge collection of people on staff you'd think someone would be paying attention.
Ditto.
We who like to theorize do so in vain, when such information turns out to be 'negotiable'.
So are there others besides me that feels that it was not the original story to have Jack and Claire be half siblings? It was a result of the fans' speculations after Two for the Road aired?
I not only agree with that but would add a few more 'fan speculation' orientated conclusions will be coming our way before the end of the season.
Pressure from above.
'Do something that will work immediately"
Hodgepodge
03-29-07, 01:35 AM
Is it just me, or does anyone else suspect that perhaps Christian had a hand in Tom's decision to leave Claire. Perhaps even influencing Claire's friend to go and see the "psychic" ?Hallad69, I read a post a couple of days that theorized Christian isn't dead. It went on to speculate he paid off both the psychic and the ME all in a plot to get his children to the island. Now, hang your hat on that! :nanabobo:
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