Just How Many Charlie Deaths did Desmond See?

[interplanetjanet]

As has been discussed, Charlie avoided death narrowly many times: drug addiction, cart on the plane, crash, flying crash debris, Smokey, cave-in, hanging. If the universe is out to get him, it has terrible aim.

Desmond has done 3 actions that show some sort of extra knowledge: he saw the lightning striking by Claire's tent, Claire drowning, and where the bird was, going straight to the bird--the one with the tag--and picking it up. He's said all these are about saving Charlie from numerous deaths. But...

Just how many times did he see Charlie die, and narrowly avert it? I don't want to get too into "exactly what happened when the key turned" because we don't have enough information. But we seem to have
a) Desmond sees numerous timelines, all of them ending with Charlie's death.
b) Desmond sees one timeline and it's branches, i.e. he knows what to do to keep saving Charlie until it happens he can't. So the roadtrip was always safe, because Des never saw it end in death.
c) Desmond saw something else, and the excuses he's giving for his actions are just that, excuses. Most likely, he saw something about Charlie being dangerous. (See Charlie's reaction to the rescue, and hiding the note.) Or he saw that following this curious path would lead to a good outcome, e.g. Charlie accidentally disables the others' security system just as Pen's team sails up.

Charlie's personality as a follower comes heavily into play here: he followed Locke, followed Eko, and is now following Desmond.

I'm leaning toward (c). Either "Des sees Charlie's death and forestalls it" is getting to be a repetitive plotline unbelievably fast, or that's not the real plotline at all.

[blue sunrise]

As has been discussed, Charlie avoided death narrowly many times: drug addiction, cart on the plane, crash, flying crash debris, Smokey, cave-in, hanging. If the universe is out to get him, it has terrible aim.


Just how many times did he see Charlie die, and narrowly avert it?


I'm leaning toward (c). Either "Des sees Charlie's death and forestalls it" is getting to be a repetitive plotline unbelievably fast, or that's not the real plotline at all.
I had a similar question after last night. Desmond has "saved" Charlie three times so far. He said himself that the universe course corrects, so then is his plan to save Charlie indefinitely, day after day? Repetitive plotline? You betcha.

I like your idea that Desmond saw something bigger, and is using the rescuing as an excuse. That would at least give some purpose to Desmond's actions. I'm not a Charlie-hater by any means, and I don't particularly want to see him killed off, but Desmond is going to very busy if he has to save Charlie, day in and day out.

And what if he sees someone else in peril? If he needs to save that person too, he's going to become very busy. ;)

[Smartypants]

It must be very crowded in Desmond's brain, what with the seeing of everything. How long before that drives him completely mad?

[killbuckner]

what I am hoping is that how it works is that Desmond sees something familiar that triggers the deja vu memory and he remembers specific details of what is coming. So he doesn't yet know all the ways that Charlie could die- but when he gets into a specific circumstance then me might have some foreshadowing on what is going to go down.

[Boomfish]

I would say that Desmond's motivations are key. Why does this guy inherently care that Charlie should stay living when he knows next to nothing about the kid? Either the scot wants a new Driveshaft album or he expects something important to come from Charles!

[juanbong]

Here's reverse thinking on the subject...

Each time he 'dies' it is due to helping Claire. The lightning, the drowning, the bashing against the rocks—all due to helping Claire. What if he isn't necessarily destined to die but instead destined to stay away from Claire in order for fate to be satisfied?

Two lovers not meant to be together kinda thing?

[I Hate Seabillies]

Here's what I don't understand: If Desmondo went back in time and for that reason knew Charlie was going to die, when he averts the first near-death-Charlie experience, he's now changed the future. With Charlie alive, the future will be different. So wouldn't Desmond need to go back in time again before he would be able to see the next near-death-harlie experience after he changed the future?

[rvturnage]

According to Desmond, when he told Charlie his whole life flashed in front of his eye, he is still seeing "flashes" after that event. So I agree with killbuckner...he's having "Deja Vu Flashes" and seeing Charlie dead a new way each time the future corrects itself.

[interplanetjanet]

I'm not a Charlie-hater by any means, and I don't particularly want to see him killed off, but Desmond is going to very busy if he has to save Charlie, day in and day out.
I like Charlie, too. The only characters I've found so irritating I'd welcome their demise were Ana and, recently, Jack. On an island rife with would-be leaders and loners, Charlie's a follower. Very interesting. But I suspect following Hurley might be a better choice.

Either the scot wants a new Driveshaft album or he expects something important to come from Charles!
Maybe in 10 timelines Charlie dies, but in the 11th, if Des can prevent the first 10, he's a hero. Could still end in his death, but a death with a purpose (as we have complained about numerous deaths--if someone has to die, have it really count).

Each time he 'dies' it is due to helping Claire. The lightning, the drowning, the bashing against the rocks—all due to helping Claire. What if he isn't necessarily destined to die but instead destined to stay away from Claire in order for fate to be satisfied?

Two lovers not meant to be together kinda thing?
I wonder how Locke's vision of Desmond as a pilot "helping himself" and surrounded by flirting stewardesses plays in, too. Not that it has to be read as a negative, but it implies more than the simple reactionary psychic we're seeing.

Claire was very angry in S1 when men, including Charlie, conspired to keep poor little her ignorant of fate and what she could do about it. She was proactive here, too.

All last season I'd hoped they'd do something about her being the first to have prophetic dreams, and maybe they're finally coming to that, with her interest in new age stuff lending itself to figuring out the island. Like Hurley being the only one crazy enough to figure stuff out.

Here's what I don't understand: If Desmondo went back in time and for that reason knew Charlie was going to die, when he averts the first near-death-Charlie experience, he's now changed the future. With Charlie alive, the future will be different. So wouldn't Desmond need to go back in time again before he would be able to see the next near-death-harlie experience after he changed the future?
He either saw numerous timelines, and remembered just the key "Charlie dying" bit from each, or he saw one timeline and is playing his role along it. (Or a dozen other things, but I'll try to stick with those.) If the first, it will make him too perfect. A seal? Wait--that means the others' sub is coming, and we must evacuate the beach, except for Jin who needs to take the net up the third palm tree on the left. That's why I prefer the idea that he has a deeper game.

[I Hate Seabillies]

Two lovers not meant to be together kinda thing?

juan, are you really talking about you and Juliet? :awwhug:

[I Hate Seabillies]

According to Desmond, when he told Charlie his whole life flashed in front of his eye, he is still seeing "flashes" after that event. So I agree with killbuckner...he's having "Deja Vu Flashes" and seeing Charlie dead a new way each time the future corrects itself.

But I thought the writers confirmed he went back in time. Going back and time and knowing the future based on having lived it already seems entirely different from knowing the future via pre-cognition or deja vu flashes, right?

Are the writers just using whatever future telling "gift" allows them to keep this mysterious plot device moving?

[redneck once removed]

I guess what bugs me is how recent Episodes seem to have similarities to movies that recently come out, I feel like sometimes tptb get stalled and reach for a quick fix.

I guess its how there were the De ja vu movie previews when we found out Dez could see the future, and now the Premonition movie previews as we find out he's trying to prevent Charlie's death. it's an annoying paralell imo, I wonder about it... :p

[juanbong]

juan, are you really talking about you and Juliet? :awwhug:

That's good stuff!! ;) :)

[NeillT006]

I'm starting to think that Charlie's salvation will come through knocking up Claire.

N.

[Warthawg1]

I hope Dez keeps seeing Charlie deaths until one of them takes.

[rvturnage]

But I thought the writers confirmed he went back in time. Going back and time and knowing the future based on having lived it already seems entirely different from knowing the future via pre-cognition or deja vu flashes, right? They confirmed he went back in time in that instance, not that he knows what's going to happen based on the fact that he's already lived it. Indeed, it seems clear to me that he actually only relived that one portion of his life we were shown, not the entire thing.

They never address his seeing the future. here's a transcript (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1375089&postcount=30) of that portion of the podcast, courtesy of Spooky.

rvt

[time is a river]

I'm starting to think that Charlie's salvation will come through knocking up Claire.

N.

And then they will name Aaron's little brother Moses, and he can take them to the promised land!

About the question Janet posed: my take is that Desmond has lived many timelines in which Charlie dies. He doesn't remember everything from those timelines, but sometimes some present detail strikes him--hmm, I experienced this before, I know what is going to happen next. This was the way that it worked in the flashback to London of 1996. I like the idea that Desmond is saving Charlie so he can fulfill some important role later on. But what is that role? How far into the future do these different timelines of Desmond stretch? Is there a way that he wants everything to end up, and he is course correcting so that everyone gets there? That seems to give Desmond too important a role in the plot.

[vonnegut]

Such a romantic idea.

[Falco]

As has been discussed, Charlie avoided death narrowly many times: drug addiction, cart on the plane, crash, flying crash debris, Smokey, cave-in, hanging. If the universe is out to get him, it has terrible aim.

On a comical note, what if it's Charlie's destiny to narrowly avert death again and again. What Des is seeing is what the universe has planned but if he left him alone, Charlie would get out of the situation on his own.

Anyway, I am not convinced that Desmond is saving Charlie every time. It has seemed to me that Claire has been in danger of death much more than Charlie. Maybe being in close proximity to Charlie puts Claire in danger so Desmond tries to keep Charlie away from her when his vision start to come to pass.

When Des pulled Claire out of the ocean, he was yelling at Charlie to get away. To save Charlie or get him away from Claire.

When Des told him not to help with catching the gulls. Charlie didn't go hunting with Des, he stayed back at the camp. To keep Charlie safe, or keep him away from Claire.

[Lawboy]

I hope Dez keeps seeing Charlie deaths until one of them takes.

Personally, I want to get to see what Des is seeing. Whether it ends in a death or not. Preferred if it does.

[perv90210]

Thought it might be appropriate to again ask the question "what happened to charlie during the swan explosion?" Was his death averted there as well?

If you recall he came walking out of the jungle to the beach camp as though nothing had happened...in an unsually good mood.

[Enigma]

I just don't like how the plot is in an infinity phase. It's getting old and tired fast. I really DON'T want to see Charlie die, so how do they get out of this one now?!

If Desmond knows he can't truly prevent Charlie's death in the end, as things course correct, then why try at all, like the jeweler was telling Desmond in the first place.

There has to be some higher reason, and if so then why be vague about it? Oh yeah that's right it's LOST! LOL

[Reduak]

You know what I found really interesting about how Desmond described Charlie's death to Claire...

1. He spoke about it in extreme detail.. That's where he slipped..He was pounded against the waves..He broke his neck.

2. He spoke about it in the past tense. If he had seen it, I would think he would have either spoken in the future tense.. That's where Charlie is going to die or he would have said that's where he saw it happen.

It makes me think he lived it, not that he saw it.

[merry slug]

I think he sees one timeline - it ends in Charlie's death until Desmond changes that. Then he sees the next death, etc...
I think this is what you're saying with "B" (?)

[Noav Sigless]

I'm normally a big defender of the show but I really hate this plot line.

First of all, they are all human beings. They are all going to die. What Desmond is really seeing is that Charlie is going to die soon.
TPTB have always taken pride in saying that anyone on this show can die at any time. Well this just takes all the tension out of that. Nobody else is going to die anytime soon except Charlie.

Well, maybe that last statement isn't accurate. Eko managed to get killed after Desmond started to have visions. Did Desmond not get that memo from the future on that one? Did he get it a little too late? Does he only get visions about Charlie? Can Charlie really be that important? Charlie?

OK, so Charlie is going to die and there is nothing Desmond can do about it. Except, of course for all the things Desmond keeps doing about it. But all that just delays the inevitable.
Charlie is going to die soon because he's supposed to die soon. well, actually he's supposed to already be dead. Which brings us to Claire, who is also supposed to be dead but wasn't supposed to die.

Desmond saved Claire from drowning. No, wait, he saved Charlie from drowning, Claire wasn't going to die. Why did Desmond have to save Claire if she wasn't going to die? The only reason Charlie is going to die is because he's supposed to die. How could Claire be in danger of dying if she wasn't supposed to die?
Sure, she was unconscious and floating face down in the ocean and Desmond knew this because of his visions of the future and he prevented her from dying. Kind of like what he does on a daily basis for Charlie.
Does this mean Claire is now on the death watch list?
Besides Charlie, can he see who else is supposed to die? I mean other than Eko.

My head hurts. Did I mention I hate this plot line?

[merry slug]

This ^ makes me wonder... Maybe it's not necessarily that Charlie is the next to die - maybe it's that all of Desmond's premonitions are about Charlie in particular.

I mean, why isn't he seeing Patchy's house blow up, or other things? It just seems to be all Charlie for some reason.

And yeah, it needs to be resolved one way or another fairly soon.

[rvturnage]

I'm betting it's because Charlie is somehow going to become very important to the plot. The island (or something) wants him dead for a reason, and Desmond keeps interfering.

[redneck once removed]

How do you know its not the Island giving Des the info?

ugh

[killbuckner]

One possible theory is that the failsafe led to a moment of vulnerability for the island and Desmond was able to see what the island has planned. THe island needs Charlie dead for some reason that we havent seen yet. I think its possible that the others are going to make another attempt to get Aaron and Charlie will prevent it if he is still alive. So as long as Desmond can keep Charlie alive until then he will slowly start to set the chain effect in motion and the future will slowly change.

[rvturnage]

How do you know its not the Island giving Des the info?

ugh

Well, in Locke's sweat lodge dream/vision Boone tells Locke "He's (Desmond) helping himself". I take that to mean the island isn't helping him.

[redneck once removed]

ok :)

[Enigma]

SO how long will it take before smokie intervenes and kills Desmond so Charlie can finally Die?

At this rate will anyone be left to rescue after Claires bird gets help?

[9mile monster]

Everytime Des says that he is saving Charlie, Claire is involved in the situation. When he rescued her from the ocean, on the beach Des yells at Charlie to stay away from Claire. When Des gets a seagull for her he tells her to stay away, to be careful. It's like he is protecting her, too. Could he be protecting Claire from death and leading Charlie towards it?

[rvturnage]

Everytime Des says that he is saving Charlie, Claire is involved in the situation. When he rescued her from the ocean, on the beach Des yells at Charlie to stay away from Claire. When Des gets a seagull for her he tells her to stay away, to be careful. It's like he is protecting her, too. Could he be protecting Claire from death and leading Charlie towards it?

I think you have that backwards. Claire is going to be the death of Charlie, and Desmond keeps trying to prevent it.

rvt

[9mile monster]

No No, I'm just saying as NoavSig pointed out, that if Claire didn't need saving, then why did Des rescue her from drowning? She was not going to die, then, and didn't need him to do that. Right? Each time Des is purportedly just saving Charlie from dying, he was saving Claire, too. Or was he interupting something that she would be doing? When Claire and the Kwon's were trying to catch gulls, Des interfered what they were doing by shooting the gun. He was trying to change what Claire was trying to do. Could Des be trying to guide outcomes for more poepole lthan just Charlie? Des might just be trying to do a little course correcting of his own.

[Noav Sigless]

Desmonds's visions show him what would happen if he didn't know what would happen. When the events actually happen, they don't happen the way he saw them happening, they happen the way they actually happen with Desmond knowing what would happen if he didn't know what was going to happen.

So, even if Desmond did nothing about what he knows would happen if he didn't know what would happen, what would happen would still be different from what he saw happening because, when it actually happens, it happens while he knows what would happen if he didn't know what would happen.

My head hurts again.

[de Tocqueville]

Here's reverse thinking on the subject...

Each time he 'dies' it is due to helping Claire. The lightning, the drowning, the bashing against the rocks—all due to helping Claire. What if he isn't necessarily destined to die but instead destined to stay away from Claire in order for fate to be satisfied?

Two lovers not meant to be together kinda thing?

There's another thread talking about Claire's role in Charlie's death here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31983).

I brought up the point there that maybe since Des's first vision of Charlie's death had something to do with Claire, maybe all subsequent deaths would have to, as well.

[bluesteed]

Desmonds's visions show him what would happen if he didn't know what would happen. When the events actually happen, they don't happen the way he saw them happening, they happen the way they actually happen with Desmond knowing what would happen if he didn't know what was going to happen.

So, even if Desmond did nothing about what he knows would happen if he didn't know what would happen, what would happen would still be different from what he saw happening because, when it actually happens, it happens while he knows what would happen if he didn't know what would happen.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was confused.

[9mile monster]

Desmonds's visions show him what would happen if he didn't know what would happen. When the events actually happen, they don't happen the way he saw them happening, they happen the way they actually happen with Desmond knowing what would happen if he didn't know what was going to happen.

So, even if Desmond did nothing about what he knows would happen if he didn't know what would happen, what would happen would still be different from what he saw happening because, when it actually happens, it happens while he knows what would happen if he didn't know what would happen.

My head hurts again.
:tired:
And now mine does too

[Falco]

Desmonds's visions show him what would happen if he didn't know what would happen. When the events actually happen, they don't happen the way he saw them happening, they happen the way they actually happen with Desmond knowing what would happen if he didn't know what was going to happen.

So, even if Desmond did nothing about what he knows would happen if he didn't know what would happen, what would happen would still be different from what he saw happening because, when it actually happens, it happens while he knows what would happen if he didn't know what would happen.

My head hurts again.

Who's on first?

[RicardoLost]

Desmond is saving Claire... he lied to Charlie... cuz he knows if the hobbit knew the truth he would mess up and Claire would end up dead...

[Loveriot]

Desmonds's visions show him what would happen if he didn't know what would happen. When the events actually happen, they don't happen the way he saw them happening, they happen the way they actually happen with Desmond knowing what would happen if he didn't know what was going to happen.

So, even if Desmond did nothing about what he knows would happen if he didn't know what would happen, what would happen would still be different from what he saw happening because, when it actually happens, it happens while he knows what would happen if he didn't know what would happen.

My head hurts again.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/images/smilies/headexplode.gif

[Noav Sigless]

I might return to this thread but I have to stock up on Tylenol first.
You have been warned.