Who will kill Cooper--Locke or Sawyer?

[abcdxyz]

But Cooper's reason for being on the island is to give both Locke and Sawyer (for I believe he is the man who conned James Ford's parents) a "second chance," the "do-over" that TPTB talked about in the recap episode on Feb. 7. What will they choose to do with him? Will they take revenge, or forgive him?

[Hodgepodge]

...But his reason for being there is to give both Locke and Sawyer (for I believe he is the man who conned James Ford's parents) a "second chance," the "do-over" that TPTB talked about in the recap episode on Feb. 7. What will they choose to do with him? Will they take revenge, or forgive him?Why do I always highjack threads? My apologies to Mjburne.

Abcdxyz, this quote hit me like a ton of bricks! I happen to agree with your assumption too, but compare your idea with what happened to Mr. Eko. His confrontation with his brother and his unwillingness to repent led to his death by "Smokey". Was that his "do-over", and if so, what does that foreshadow for both Locke and Sawyer? Taking into consideration what we already know about both men.

[abcdxyz]

Continuing the threadjack:

Hodge, I believe that Sawyer has developed since being on the island. We saw that he was not a cold-blooded killer when he had to screw his nerve up to kill the man he believed to be the original Sawyer at the shrimp shack in Australia. I think that experience, plus, dare I say it, the redeeming influence of falling in love, apparently for the first time, may allow him to let go of the need for revenge.

I'm not sure about Locke. It's a lot to forgive, what Cooper did to him.

[Hodgepodge]

Abcdxyz, I'm going to do it again. :nanabobo: Take one of your thoughts/posts/threads and contrive a whole other one. This is such an interesting dilemma for both Locke and Sawyer. A discussion in the Character Interactions forum is a must. ;)

Send me a PM with an appropriate title for this new thread? :)

[Khan]

If Cooper is the real Sawyer and James Ford finds out I think he would seek way a to kill him, but if Locke finds out he'd probably defend his father.
Locke's excessive need to connect to his dad has been one of greatest weaknesses, and I think before it's all over he'll be faced with finally walking away from him or causing the people around him serious trouble by once again doing something stupid to get his love and attention.

[Brian]

Thanks for the new thread Hodge! I was thinking about this today while listening to a couple of podcasts. I'll have to elaborate more later when I have more time, but I think Cooper being on the island is a test for Locke. If we're to believe that Cooper is the real Sawyer, then I'm sure the stage has now been set for a showdown (for lack of a better word) between Cooper, Locke and Sawyer. How Locke handles this showdown may very well determine whether or not Locke stays in the good graces of the island since it has shown that it can take away his ability to walk, most notably in Deus Ex Machina.

I think the true test will come when, in Locke's presence, Sawyer confronts Cooper.

[Susan B Anthony]

Locke may also be aware of some connection between Sawyer and his dad. Remember when Locke asked Sawyer, "Why did you choose that name?" I don't expect Locke is aware if what the connection is, but he may be aware that Cooper at one time used the name Sawyer.

I agree, Brian, that Cooper is a test for Locke. The question is, what does it take to pass the test? Forgiveness or vengeance? Psychologically, forgiveness is the better option, because as long as Locke hates, fears, resents, or craves attention from Cooper, Cooper controls him.

I think there has to be a parallel with Eko and Yemi. The final showdown with Yemi was all about judgment and forgiveness. It was Eko's unwillingness to ask for forgiveness that ultimately killed him.

[Khan]

So what's Locke's test? Will he kill or attempt to kill our Sawyer to protect this evil man? Or is it he'll fall into the hands of the Others and fullfil thier plans for him because he, once again, must get his dad to acknowledge and love him?
Sawyer's boar experience taught him to let go of his guilt for being conned into killing an man he had no quarrel with. It also taught him to let the thing that haunts and troubles you go; it can be faced and left without killing.
He overcame it to a degree in that episode , but facing the real Sawyer would be his truest test.
Perhaps he won't be an adversary to Locke, it could be together they can find peace and strength from thier experiences with that piece of trash who's caused them both too much pain.

[snakey]

You know what makes no sense to me, no matter how desperate for family Locke might be? He called him dad when he saw him in the box room. I think that's not what anyone would say, not someone who 's father was unknown to him till he needed Locke for spare parts. His father was just a sperm donor who showed up to screw him over, he didnt even see John as a human only as a thing he needed. I know Locke is looking to belong and loved but at this stage of his life he'd have to have grown a thicke skin for him to survive and dad is the last thing he'd call him.

[Khan]

Locke's father or rather whatever his father represents in his life is his Achilles heel. He grew up in foster care, something about that may be the key to his beyond reason need to connect to the filthy thing.
Perhaps being loved and accepted by his dad was the one dream he had since childhood, he certainly regresses to a blindly emotional little boy when it comes to Cooper.

[Subject # 4815162342]

Actually,I'm thinking that Cooper is actually the biological father to both John Locke AND Sawyer.

He just conned John for a kidney because it was a kidney his body would'nt reject.

And as far as Sawyer goes?....perhaps little James Fords Mama just TOLD him (and her husband) they were conned by a con-man named Sawyer,and this drove her husband (who may NOT have been James' real father) to off himself and his wife.

It's very possible that James never had a realistic picture of who his real father was.....ala:Kate.

[abcdxyz]

If Cooper is the real Sawyer and James Ford finds out I think he would seek way a to kill him, but if Locke finds out he'd probably defend his father.

This is an interesting scenario--Sawyer and Locke pitted against each other, one seeking to kill Cooper, the other to save him.

I think there are a couple of different ways the writers could go with this set-up. I don't really believe that Sawyer is now so bent on killing the man who conned his parents, and I'm not sure to what extent Locke would defend his father. Maybe there will be some kind of decision-point where Cooper's life is in the balance, and Sawyer or Locke (or Sawyer AND Locke) will need to act to save his life or let him die.

Then, of course, there are all the questions about whether this really even IS Cooper, or a simulacrum (a la Yemi) which the island or whoever controls Smokey has set up to test one or both of them.

(I hope it's the real Cooper, and that he gets a grisly and not too swift death!)

[Hodgepodge]

My immediate response is to agree with Khan. Sawyer (James Ford) still has this pent up anger against the man who destroyed his life. I agree with Abcdxyz's premise that he's grown, but we've seen how easy it is for him to backslide.

They've taken my Locke and turned him into the poster child for second chances. He'd find some way to justify giving his father one more. Which I might say, could lead to Locke's demise this time.

[Khan]

It could also lead to the death of Sawyer or some character and only aftewards will Locke realize what he did or let happen.
There's also another player in this family drama, Smokey. The fence may keep It out but what if Cooper leaves the protected area, we know it judges and kills people who are evil or think themselves to be, Cooper would have to be the first It'd go after.

[Homer Noodleman]

I don't think Magic Box Cooper is the real Cooper.

IMO, to figure out Locke's, and Sawyer's (and really, how would Sawyer ever find out Cooper had been Sawyer years ago?), dilema if that's the case, you have for figure out why Smokie whacked Eko.

ETA: I don't agree we know why Smokie kills people.

[Khan]

True we can't yet be positively sure why the Island's meanest dust pile slams people into trees or rips them to death.

In Eko's case I think his own conscience condemed him, it fits with his flashback and long held religous beliefs. I don't think Smokey is capable of arbitrary judgement, it seems to respond to thier psyche, Id, or what your favorite mental assessment happens to be. However It or something killed the pilot and there seemed to be no reason for his death. I'm afraid Smokey has "evolved" from TPTB's original tree shaking thing in the jungle and they've added to what he's about. So we may have to let a few details slide do to changes in thier intention for It.

I'm hoping it's not some smoke and mirrors trick by Ben, it could be, but Locke would behave as though he's the real thing.

The way Sawyer would know is by the Others, Dharma must be connected to every data base in the world, and the Others have compiled an impressive amount of imformation on the Losties. Sawyer was one of the ones they targeted for manipulation so no doubt Ben Juliet, and who knows how many others have studied his file.

[Hodgepodge]

...There's also another player in this family drama, Smokey. The fence may keep It out but what if Cooper leaves the protected area, we know it judges and kills people who are evil or think themselves to be, Cooper would have to be the first It'd go after.Could we be looking at this delimma from the wrong end?

For the sake of argument, lets make the bond-and-gaged Cooper a manifestation of "Smokey". Now we assume Eko was killed because he wouldn't repent. Khan's post got me to thinking. Maybe "Smokey" feels Cooper deserves to die, and if neither Locke or Sawyer are willing to do the deed, that would make them both "Smokey" bait.

[Susan B Anthony]

Sawyer could also figure it out if Locke got chatty about his past. "Yeah, my dad's a con man. Has been all his life. Didn't care who he hurt. Destroyed families... bla bla bla.... and did I mention my foster mom thought my sister was a golden retriever?" It could certainly get James Ford thinking that Cooper could be the original Sawyer. More likely that Cooper's file would just happen to be left out for Sawyer to see (a la Ben's x-rays just happened to be up where Jack could see them).

If it is really Cooper-in-the-box, and if Cooper is the original Sawyer, and if Sawyer finds this out, and if Sawyer tries to finally take his revenge and kill Cooper, and if Locke tries to stop Sawyer from doing this, then I don't think it will be because Locke feels the need to defend Cooper. I think if Locke doesn't whack Cooper himself (we found out through Mikhail that Locke "has murder in his heart" and is willing to kill), it will be because he has FINALLY moved past that emotional little boy, has found his own place in the world, and is now indifferent to Cooper. If that is the scenario, then Locke will try to get Sawyer to the same point, convincing him that he will emerge stronger if he just lets it go and gets on with his life.

My big question is how is Ben going to use all of this to his own advangtage?

[Khan]

Thta's the big question isn't it will Locke move past his emotionally stunted stage? He's had a thing against sawyer, even tried to have sayid kill him, it could be this time he'll save Sawyer, a clear sign he's moving on.

Hodge, you're not alone thinking it's Smokey. While I don't see that, it would be interesting if the concept is true. But why would It want Sawyer otr Locke to kill Cooper?
If it's Sawyer it would mean he's not overcome his past and then he'd be in danger of being wiped out by Smokey.
If it's Locke it could mean he's free of his past and can be used . Although I have a real problem with anyone killing one of thier parents, however Smokey may not feel the same way.

[Hodgepodge]

I take it back Khan! I'd forgotten about my post (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1417301&postcount=38) in the Cooper was on the plane thread.

Whenever "Smokey" has manifested itself into a person, have you noticed that person's wardrobe never changes? Yemi was always in "clerical clothing". Even when it took on the form of that little boy from the chuch, the clothing was the same as Eko remembered it. When Ana-Lucia appeared to Mr. Eko in ?, she was wearing the same thing when she died.

If you take a look at the link, you'll see Cooper's shirt is different. Now I will admit, I'm going under the assumption Locke and his dad never saw one another again until Locke walks through that door at "Othersville".

[Khan]

I did not notice what they were wearing, but it goes back to my therory Smokies is using the indiviuals own mind. Eko saw Yemi as a priest rather than as his brother. He remember AL in those clothes because that's what he had seen her in so often.
Smokey taps into the person It's judging mind.

[rubysareduhbomb]

If all of this is the case, Cooper being Sawyer, and Saywer trying to kill Cooper, don't you think there will be some sort of twist? I think there will be at least a couple more episodes setting this up. With Saywer angry, Ben could make Sawyer do almost anything to kill Cooper- and who knows what Saywer would do to do that? Who would Sawyer kill to get to Cooper? Who would stop Sawyer?

Anyway, just something to chew on.

[Khan]

Interesting. Locke is clearly a target, I would think they would try to use Sawyer's burning desire to kill the real Sawyer to manipulate Locke.
What would happen if they let Locke know James Ford is out to get his dad and he's knows Cooper is on the Island?

[snakey]

I just wish that Locke had a bit of payback in him and Sawyer had a lot less, carrying around that much revenge baggage weighs you down and ruins your life. Maybe this willhappen-Sawyer and Locke compare notes on Coop and it ends in a cryfest to rival any that Jack had before, drowning Coop in their tears. The showdown of their inner children, april 1st lame humor.

[Susan B Anthony]

Maybe there was more to the Others trying to gain Sawyer's respect by conning him ("Every Man For Himself"). We have assumed that Sawyer's presence was all part of the scheme to get Jack to operate on Ben. Maybe they had other plans for Sawyer as well. Everything the Others do seems to have several dimensions to it. Obviously the plan to get Jack to do the surgery had several layers of back-up plans to it: first Juliet will try to talk Jack into it; then Ben try to bribe him with a promise of release from the Island; then Kate will plead with Jack to save Sawyer's life; then Jack will 'accidentally' see Kate & Sawyer together and do the surgery in a fit of pique.

Perhaps they had additional plans for Sawyer all along.

[Khan]

Why take Sawyer if you have Kate? All they had to do was treat her harshly or threaten her life, in fact they could have kept Hurley and Jack would have operated.
To set up a complicated scheme with Kate climbing out of cage and getting in to with Sawyer was excessive. They couldn't be certain Kate wouldn't ignore Sawyer and concentrate on Jack.
The clock was ticking for Ben, he didn't have a lot of time to wait around hoping the two would get the hots for Jack to see, or know Jack wouldn't just go into a depressed state and not bother to save her.
It's a foolishly elaborate con given the time frame.

[Hodgepodge]

Don't forget, they've got to get Sawyer to "Othersville". It's obvious he didn't join the rescue party because of Kate. I'm trying to figure out how they're going to get him there now. Are they going to send one of captured back with a message to stay away, knowing that's not going to happen?


Why take Sawyer if you have Kate? All they had to do was treat her harshly or threaten her life, in fact they could have kept Hurley and Jack would have operated.
To set up a complicated scheme with Kate climbing out of cage and getting in to with Sawyer was excessive. They couldn't be certain Kate wouldn't ignore Sawyer and concentrate on Jack.
The clock was ticking for Ben, he didn't have a lot of time to wait around hoping the two would get the hots for Jack to see, or know Jack wouldn't just go into a depressed state and not bother to save her.
It's a foolishly elaborate con given the time frame.Doesn't this go back the Ben's initial question to Kate when he offered her breakfast. Remember she asks, "What did you do with Sawyer and Jack?" And his question! "He's the first one you asked about. What did you do with Sawyer and Jack?"

I think we have to take into consideration what Ben and the "Others" have seen in the Swan. Did they see all of the cooing when Kate got Sawyer to take the medicine when he was shot? Are there monitors on Craphole like the ones on Alcatraz, where they may've seen that kiss between them? All of the horsing around they did on a regular basis? Did they see Kate giving Sawyer a haircut, or reading to him?

[Khan]

I can see they may have found out about the silly triangle, but why bother to bring Sawyer? Here's a man who needs an operation right now, he can't afford to play games. They could have taken nearly anyone and Jack would have operated to save thier life.

I can't really see why they believe he wouldn't operate anyway. I can't stand Jackass, but what has he ever done to make them believe he wouldn't help Ben or anyone else in Ben's position? This is what he does best, the thing that feeds his ego, his greatest talent. He's been stranded on an Island facing helplessness due to the lack of modern medical supplies, trained personnel, etc. Why wouldn't he need to get back to what he knows?
He could have used it to try to get the Losties some medicine or whatever help the Others have to offer.

Instead Ben decides to set up elaborate head games that take some time to complete. That's utterly senseless, he's too smart for that. It has to be a plot device to drag out the who's Kate going to screw nonsense, and keep things on high for the few episodes we saw in the fall.

[Hodgepodge]

...Instead Ben decides to set up elaborate head games that take some time to complete. That's utterly senseless, he's too smart for that. It has to be a plot device to drag out the who's Kate going to screw nonsense, and keep things on high for the few episodes we saw in the fall.Remember when Jack found Ben's x-rays? Remember the conversation between the two the next day or so?

BEN: We had such a wonderful plan to break you, Jack.

JACK: Break me?

BEN: Wear you down till you were convinced we weren't your enemies. Get you to trust us. And then of course we'd lead you to believe that you were choosing to do... whatever we asked you to do. All of this of course assumed that you would get... invested.

JACK: Invested in what?

BEN: Has it not occurred to you that Juliet bears a striking resemblance to your ex-wife?

JACK: Why are you telling me this?

BEN: I'm telling you this, Jack, because my wonderful plan... got shot to sunshine when you saw my damned x-rays and figured out I was dying.I think Ben loves the games he plays. That's his excitement. He reiterates this feeling when he and Juliet are in the Pearl. "Find his weakness and exploit it!"

[Khan]

So what you're saying is we shouldn't think logically or reasonably at all?
If it's not a ill conceived plot device, it would mean this gives us a deeper insight into Ben's mind and situation.
Perhaps a man stuck on an Island with Dharma as his only means of employment or survival, bored and the only outlet for his intelligence is games? Mirror image of Locke? That's interesting.

[Hodgepodge]

So what you're saying is we shouldn't think logically or reasonably at all?
If it's not a ill conceived plot device, it would mean this gives us a deeper insight into Ben's mind and situation....Oh, don't get me wrong! You and I both know it was all done to titillate the viewership. We knew they were going to do it at the end of S2.


...Perhaps a man stuck on an Island with Dharma as his only means of employment or survival, bored and the only outlet for his intelligence is games? Mirror image of Locke? That's interesting.This is interesting! I'm sure they'll get along nicely. Anyone for Scrabble! ;)

[Khan]

If only they would settle for a harmless board game, but those two would use the Island as the board and everyone on it as the playing pieces.
It's a game ending in death between frustrated cobras.

[Susan B Anthony]

I can see they may have found out about the silly triangle, but why bother to bring Sawyer? Here's a man who needs an operation right now, he can't afford to play games. They could have taken nearly anyone and Jack would have operated to save thier life.

I don't know that Sawyer was captured only to help make the operation happen. I think getting Ben's tumor removed was only part of the plan for the 815s. If Sawyer was just going to be a hunk of beef to be used in furtherance of head games with Jack, then why go to the trouble of the whole pacemaker gambit? I think they had other plans for Sawyer which went off the boil when Sawyer and Kate escaped. Ben probably figured that the first order of business was survival, and they could re-capture Sawyer later.


I can't really see why they believe he wouldn't operate anyway. I can't stand Jackass, but what has he ever done to make them believe he wouldn't help Ben or anyone else in Ben's position? This is what he does best, the thing that feeds his ego, his greatest talent. He's been stranded on an Island facing helplessness due to the lack of modern medical supplies, trained personnel, etc. Why wouldn't he need to get back to what he knows?
He could have used it to try to get the Losties some medicine or whatever help the Others have to offer..

Agreed 100%. There were definitely much easier and more reliable ways to get Jack to do the surgery. If Ben really wanted Jack to "want to save his life," he could certainly have manipulated that. It may be that having lived on the Island his whole life, Ben has developed a warped sense of human interaction. Maybe it never occurred to him to just ask. However, it is hard to argue with success. Jack did do the surgery, at a cost of exactly nothing to the Others.

[SuperOrange]

But Cooper's reason for being on the island is to give both Locke and Sawyer (for I believe he is the man who conned James Ford's parents) a "second chance," the "do-over" that TPTB talked about in the recap episode on Feb. 7. What will they choose to do with him? Will they take revenge, or forgive him?

Everyone said that James Ford has come a long way into becoming a good person since season 1, except I think that neither James or Locke will kill Cooper.
For James killing Cooper will make him stoop down to his level, and will finally become the real Sawyer.
He couldn't even kill the boar that was tormenting him. Who represented the guy at the shrimp shack I think, right? Anyways, im sure by then he'll realize that revenge doesn't get you anywere.
Locke is just too weak, already said. He might just want an explination for the way that he is. Kinda makes me think about the scene when Locke was pounding on the unopened hatch door after Boone died...

LOCKE: I've done everything you wanted me to do. So why did you do this to me?

I think that TPTB won't let Locke or Sawyer know about their connection to Cooper, like the same way Claire and Jack will probly never be able to find out about their relation.