Does Locke have flashes before his eyes?

[normal42]

This is the first thread I have ever started anywhere. I spent over an hour looking for another thread I could post this in. Please be gentle :)


After last nights episode (Catch-22) I was struck most by the similarities between Desmond dragging Charlie toward his death to get what he wants and Locke dragging Boone to his death. It made me think about the reasons both Desmond and Locke persuaded their counterparts to go with them.


Visions.


I believe it is possible that Locke has the same foresight as Desmond. Locke is just better at finding cover stories to explain knowledge he should not have.


These are a few examples I have found and there may be more out there.



All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues
Locke follows a non-existent path to “find Charlie.” Finds the Hatch instead.

Hearts and Minds
Locke is so convinced the no one else should know about the hatch, he drugs Boone.

Special
Locke knows exactly how to help Walt recognize his “special” ability.

Deus Ex Machina
Locke sees flashes of the beachcraft and Boone severally injured
Locke convinces Boone to follow him to the beachcraft. Believing it important Boone go.
I believe from statements he made after the fact that he knew Boone would die.

The Hunting Party
Locke knows Michael isn't going back to the tallies landing beach.
Locke knows Sawyer got his nickname from someone.

Enter 77
Locke follows a single line on a stick to a location so remote Danielle(presumably) had never seen it.
Locke knew playing the chess game was important.
Locke knows Mikhail will not kill him.

The Man From Tallahassee
Locke finds his way directly to Ben's house. (evidenced by the fact that they have time to converse before news of Kate and Sayid is brought to Ben.)
I look forward to hearing further thoughts.

[Alostcause]

Those are some pretty strong arguments you got there

[Oswald]

Interesting thought Normal, I like it.

Didn't Locke also predict the moment the rain would start in one of the first few episodes?

[Verite Garde]

I think Locke and Desmond need to compare notes!

Only thing, I don't think Locke has visions like Desmond, but rather he has gnosis.

[DarthKitty]

Great first thread, normal! I like your examples and the work you put in to your idea. I agree with you somewhat, Verite Garde, but I would go further and say Locke has a combo of gnosis and foresight. I think it could be that when he saw the white light and saw into the 'eye of the island' it was quite possibly a lengthy vision. I think that fueled his enlightenment.

[OldSmokey]

Locke didn't predict Pappy Cooper lobbing him though a plate glass hotel window ...........

[normal42]

I fully agree with OldSmokey and Rosiegirl. Locke did not have foresight (of whatever description) before coming to the island. I believe it started on day three with his encounter with the "Eye of the Island".

I believe it's also important to point out at this point that I am very sure the "Eye" was not the "Smoke Monster". Eko said point blank to the camera in "Cost of Living" that what Locke saw was not the same as the "Smoke Monster" we all saw in that episode.

P.S. Thank you all for the wonderful response so far.

[Crandyman]

Do not mistake intuition for precognitive ability. We have no evidence that Locke has had any sort of vision similar to Desmond. I have been debating the issue presented in Deus Ex Machina, about Lockes havid, for some time now. Locke had a dream, not a vision like we have seen in Desmond. The dream had random clips did NOT in any way show Boone climbing to the beachcraft, inside the beachcraft, falling, or dying. I'm sure the island played a part in creating elements of this dream, which enabled him to know about the beachcraft. There is no way that Locke would have sent Boone up there knowing that he would, 100% without a doubt, die. Hindsight is 20/20 when reviewing his dream and seeing the bloody Boone. But even so, it was a dream and Locke didn't know if any of it could be taken as accurate. Nothing else presented in the dream happend. His mother wasn't there and he didn't end up the wheelchair. His quote "Boone was a sacrafice the island demanded", (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=120727) was merely a means of justifaction for his gross error in judgement. It was said after the fact, to help give the rest of the losties a reason to believe.


http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season1/1x19-deus/normal_deux085.jpg
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season1/1x19-deus/normal_deux089.jpg
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season1/1x19-deus/normal_deux076.jpg



Most of the other so-called "abilities" can be categorized as intuition or information through deductive reasoning. Until we (the viewers) see Locke have the sort of clips like we have seen with Desmond, I don't buy for one second that Locke can "see the future".

[CelticCross]

This is the first thread I have ever started anywhere. I spent over an hour looking for another thread I could post this in. Please be gentle :)


After last nights episode (Catch-22) I was struck most by the similarities between Desmond dragging Charlie toward his death to get what he wants and Locke dragging Boone to his death. It made me think about the reasons both Desmond and Locke persuaded their counterparts to go with them.


Visions.


I believe it is possible that Locke has the same foresight as Desmond. Locke is just better at finding cover stories to explain knowledge he should not have.


These are a few examples I have found and there may be more out there.



All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues
Locke follows a non-existent path to “find Charlie.” Finds the Hatch instead.

Hearts and Minds
Locke is so convinced the no one else should know about the hatch, he drugs Boone.

Special
Locke knows exactly how to help Walt recognize his “special” ability.

Deus Ex Machina
Locke sees flashes of the beachcraft and Boone severally injured
Locke convinces Boone to follow him to the beachcraft. Believing it important Boone go.
I believe from statements he made after the fact that he knew Boone would die.

The Hunting Party
Locke knows Michael isn't going back to the tallies landing beach.
Locke knows Sawyer got his nickname from someone.

Enter 77
Locke follows a single line on a stick to a location so remote Danielle(presumably) had never seen it.
Locke knew playing the chess game was important.
Locke knows Mikhail will not kill him.

The Man From Tallahassee
Locke finds his way directly to Ben's house. (evidenced by the fact that they have time to converse before news of Kate and Sayid is brought to Ben.)
I look forward to hearing further thoughts.

Excellent Theory

[Bob Sacamano]

Most of the other so-called "abilities" can be categorized as intuition or information through deductive reasoning. Until we (the viewers) see Locke have the sort of clips like we have seen with Desmond, I don't buy for one second that Locke can "see the future".Didn't Locke see the beechcraft in his Dream before finding it on the Island?

[Crandyman]

Didn't Locke see the beechcraft in his Dream before finding it on the Island?

yep, in his dream. I would hardly classify one aspect of a dream as the recurring powers of precognition. I simply interpreted his havid as a manifestation of the island.

[AceOfDiamonds]

I think the critical difference is that Locke's dreams are dependent on the island as his guide, whereas Desmond's flash-forwards are independent occurances that simply reveal events to happen in the future. There's a difference in agenda, too; Locke's visions are clearly "biased" to fit the island's "agenda." Thus, Locke is not informed that leading Boone to the Beechcraft will result in Boone's death.

It's also worth noting that Locke does not have any visions that lead him to believe in the "button" after the "?" episode. You'd expect if he could see the future, he'd have foreseen his greatest mistake in the Swan Hatch. It does seem, too, as if Locke's visions are dependent on his faith in the island; the more faith he has, the more the island can work through him with the visions.

[Jinjur]

I love the comparison though I don't think of them as similiar but rather parralleling each other. But perhaps that is just because i see locke as such a bad guy at the moment *shrug*

~Jj

[normal42]

Locke had a dream, not a vision

I guess a lot of my theory comes down to there being a difference between what we were supposed to assume at the time and what we know.
I just re-watched the scene from “Dues Ex Machina” again and yes Locke sits up in a panic like we have all seen in so many movies and shows when someone awakes from a nightmare. There is no shot of him sleeping, however, so we can only assume he was sleeping. He could have been staring at the stars for all we know. Beyond that we don't know that “visions” can only come during waking hours only that, the only Locke vision we have seen was when he was (presumably) sleeping and the only Desmond vision we have seen was when he was awake. No reason the visions couldn't come awake or asleep in fact a conscious brain vs. an unconscious one would help explain why the differences between the vision styles.


There is no way that Locke would have sent Boone up there knowing that he would, 100% without a doubt, die.


I don't agree with that. I still believe Locke willed the plane to fall when he heard the radio working.


Nothing else presented in the dream happened. His mother wasn't there and he didn't end up the wheelchair.


In fact Locke spent most of that episode loosing the use of his legs, leading me to believe if he had not carried out the execution of Boone the wheelchair would have been his fate.
As for Locke's mom I can only say that Penny didn't show up for Desmond either.


Until we (the viewers) see Locke have the sort of clips like we have seen with Desmond, I don't buy for one second that Locke can "see the future".


Obviously nothing is certain until TPTB tell us so and I never claimed otherwise. This is just a theory I believe has firm basis.


I think the critical difference is that Locke's dreams are dependent on the island as his guide, whereas Desmond's flash-forwards are independent occurrences that simply reveal events to happen in the future. There's a difference in agenda, too; Locke's visions are clearly "biased" to fit the island's "agenda." Thus, Locke is not informed that leading Boone to the Beechcraft will result in Boone's death.


I guess this comes down to how the individuals interpret their abilities. If Locke's abilities came from “The Eye of the Island” then it stands to reason he believe the island is providing the clues he needs to do it's bidding. Desmond awaking from such an odd event with this power has no idea how to interpret what he is seeing.


It's also worth noting that Locke does not have any visions that lead him to believe in the "button" after the "?" episode. You'd expect if he could see the future, he'd have foreseen his greatest mistake in the Swan Hatch. It does seem, too, as if Locke's visions are dependent on his faith in the island; the more faith he has, the more the island can work through him with the visions.


Maybe failing to push the button wasn't a mistake. Remember that turning the key is the “only great thing” Desmond will ever do in his life. Without Locke's failure to enter the code Desmond's fate would be greatly altered.

As if this post isn't long enough allow me to bring up one thing from my original post I was hoping would be commented on.

In “All The Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues” I believe, in fact I am certain, that Locke is not looking for Charlie. He knows that by taking Boone on that alternate path he will find something. IMO the best evidence that Locke had precognition before Deus Ex Machina.

Again thanks to everyone for the good discusion.

[Bugsy]

Interesting topic and thread.

Personally, I think Locke has a very strong intuition, but I don't think he can see the future.

Just to compare...how many LOSTies have had a dream/vision that showed them something that had yet to happen?

Off the top of my head, and correct me if wrong:
Desmond (obviously)
Locke (intuition/'flashes' and vision in sweatlodge)
Hurley (dream with the chicken mascot, Jin speaking english, Walt was on milk carton before he knew he was missing)
Charlie (saw Claire asking him for help)
Boone (showed him Shannon dying, but was induced by Locke's wacky paste)
Eko (saw Ana Lucia; can't remember what that led to though)

I'm sure there's more, but I'm just going off quick memory.

It does seem that Desmond and Locke each have some sort of ability to see the future (Des) and an intuition/guiding influence to know what to do for the most part (Locke).

[RangerMel]

One major difference between the Locke/Boone and Desmond/Charlie scenarios is that Locke was more than willing to allow Boone to be a sacrifice. Desmond seems to be fighting that outcome with Charlie.

[de Tocqueville]

It seems possible that Desmond's flashes, Locke's dreams/havids, and other's dreams/havids are all different types of the same phenomena.

Could the Island be trying to communicate to the Losties? And they each experience it differently? Desmond sees the future, Locke has visions, Jack, Eko, etc. see figures from their past (or monster in figure form).

Even so, Desmond's ability seems unique.

[AceOfDiamonds]

One major difference between the Locke/Boone and Desmond/Charlie scenarios is that Locke was more than willing to allow Boone to be a sacrifice. Desmond seems to be fighting that outcome with Charlie.

I respectfully disagree.

After the fact, Locke was more than willing to initially suggest that Boone's death was "a sacrifice the island demanded." In reality, his faithful response to the accident was a coping mechanism, in the same way that a religious believer may justify the death of a friend by saying that "God had a plan" or that somehow the death has a purpose or will result in great things to come. Locke didn't want to deal with the raw emotion of feeling personally responsible for Boone's demise, so having the island bear the burden of responsibility was a way to shift the blame.

Seriously, the whole "Locke really wanted Boone to die and sent him into the deathtrap because the island told him to" argument is ludicrous. The moment Locke actually realized Boone's presence in the plane was dangerous, he continually pleaded with Boone to exit the aircraft -- not behavior consistent with a man who'd want his protege to die. The island led Locke and Boone to the Beechcraft. Maybe the island knew that Boone would die as a result; but Locke did not know this at the time. He was just following instructions; the results horrified even him at first.

The "sacrifice the island demanded" talk started after Locke had to confront Boone's death head-on, and he likely felt sorry for leading Boone to the Beechcraft, even though Boone's death was entirely Boone's own choice (Boone had free will to leave the aircraft as per Locke's own instructions and chose not to, valuing potential rescue over his own well-being.) Locke himself ultimately (albiet only temporarily) refutes the "sacrifice" mindset when he loses his faith near the end of the second season. At that moment he even mocks himself for buying into the supposedly foolish notion that the island would have "demanded" Boone to be "sacrificed."

In summary; Locke's summation of Boone as a "sacrifice" was an after-the-fact coping mechanism for circumstances beyond his control. He couldn't save Boone, so rather than labeling Boone's death a freak accident or even holding himself partially responsible, Locke chose the easiest way for a "man of faith" to deal with Boone's demise; say his God (the Island) needed it to happen. Locke's summation of Boone as a sacrifice was not something Locke was "more than willing to choose" prior to Boone's death. Locke didn't have any choice in Boone dying; and I think if his visions clearly showed Boone dying as a result of entering the plane, he would have prevented Boone's death just as Desmond prevented Charlie's.

[Bob Sacamano]

yep, in his dream. I would hardly classify one aspect of a dream as the recurring powers of precognition. I simply interpreted his havid as a manifestation of the island.The Beechcraft represents a lot more than one aspect of his dream. It was a watershed moment and a huge piece of the puzzle and Locke saw a glimpse of it before he found it. Unfortunately, he misinterpreted it as a way to open the Swan and was already headed down the wrong path.

Locke's dreams and Desmond's flashes are both manifestations of the Island. Locke's ingesting the Island and Desmond's mainline transfusion of it are all the same source. There are strong connections between Locke and Eko's dreams as well as Desmond's flashes which I won't list here, but are included in the first post of the Dreams thread in T&S.

I agree that Desmond's powers are far beyond Locke. Perhaps that's because he absorbed something after turning the key. The strangeness is internal now. As Bloody-Boone told Locke in his sweatlodge trip, Forget it. He's helping himself.

[Verite Garde]

I agree with whomever said that Locke's and Desmond's experiences "parallel" one another and are not the same.

Nothing on LOST is the same and there are many, many similarities woven into most every episode.

On LOST nothing is the same.

[normal42]

AceOfDiamonds you make a cogent and well thought out argument. You may in fact end up being right. I, however, don't see the events of "Deus Ex Machina" the same way you do.

This brings me all the way back around to a discussion I had with my roommate in season 1.

Locke was never trying to save Boone's life when he called for him to leave the plane. He just wanted Boone away from the radio. While Boone was in the plane it moved once or twice and Locke didn't call for Boone to leave.
When Locke hears the radio start to work a flush of panic comes over him. You can see it in his face. I think that in that second of panic Locke's only thought was "I have to stop Boone from using that radio". This thought, coupled with the strong emotions behind it, released a force that tugged on the plane. Now Locke begins to call for Boone to leave the plane. Not to save Boone but to get him away from the radio.
I like Locke and I hope he will be vindicated. For now let us not forget that just days before this he attacked Sayid to stop his attempts to get off the island. He then persuaded Sayid to suspect Sawyer, leading to Sawyers torture.
Locke will do anything he believe is necessary.