Jack dosen't know medicine part II

[Elrond]

OK I posted before that I didn't Jack knew what he was doing with antibiotics, and there was good debate, but in "Raised by Another" he clearly shows he dosen't know medicene. He offers Claire "a sedative, very mild":
Sedative-hypnotics are drugs which depress or slow down the body's functions. Often these drugs are referred to as tranquilizers and sleeping pills or sometimes just as sedatives. Their effects range from calming down anxious people to promoting sleep. Barbiturates and benzodiazepines are the two major categories of sedative-hypnotics {secobarbital (Seconal),pentobarbital (Nembutal), Alprazolam (Xanax), Clonazepam (Klonopin), Diazepam (Valium), Chlordiazepoxide (Librium)}
Babies born to mothers who use sedatives during their pregnancy may be physically dependent on the drugs and show withdrawal symptoms shortly after they are born. Their symptoms may include breathing problems, feeding difficulties, disturbed sleep, sweating, irritability, and fever. Many sedative-hypnotics pass through the placenta easily and have caused birth defects and behavioral problems in babies born to women who have used these drugs during their pregnancy.
Early studies on Valium (diazepam), a commonly prescribed BZD, showed an increased risk for oral clefting in both animals (Zimmerman, 1984) and in retrospective and case-control studies in humans (Saxon and Saxen, 1975; Safra and Oakley, 1975). Substantial evidence exists demonstrating that newborns of mothers treated with benzodiazepines near term or during delivery show classic drug withdrawal symptoms (which is exactly when Jack was going to give it to Claire!). The possible teratogenicity of benzodiazepines was raised again when Laegrid et al. (1989) reported eight infants with birth defects whose mothers had taken diazepam or oxazepam while pregnant. The class of benzodiazepines are rated a pregnancy category D. If you dont agree I suggest you read my reference
Briggs et al. Drugs in Pregnacy and Lactation
5th ed 1998

[VandaRonas]

You're right - this clearly shows that the writers of the show should stick to writing. ;)


Seriously, though, I have no reason to disbelieve you (just as I had no reason to disbelieve Jack when I first heard it). I've been thinking that something happened in Jack's medical life that wasn't so good. Perhaps he's been out of it for a while?

I remember his mom saying in Flashback "You don't get to say "no." Not after what you did." Obviously we never found out what that was. Possibly find out about it tomorrow night? Who knows.

[drabauer]

Elrond, you are referring to very strong and, for the most part, older prescription sedatives. There are many milder prescription and non-prescription sedatives on the market. The vast strides in research on the effect of neurotransmitters on sleep is a cottage industry.

I'm no expert; I don't know if I'd give a pregnant woman Chloral hydrate, but Tryptophan, Valerian, or one of the SSRIs I would think would be safe.

Moral: I don't think this particular scene was meant to demonstrate Jack's incompetence at medicine (I've had friends sedated during pregnancies), but his lack of a bedside manner. It's much more important IMO for us to see that Jack has trouble relating to people rather than that he lacks medical knowledge.

[Elrond]

I don't know if I'd give a pregnant woman Chloral hydrate, but Tryptophan, Valerian, or one of the SSRIs I would think would be safe.
Chloral hydrate is a category C drug for pregnancy; safety has not been established. Chloral hydrate crosses the placenta; c use during pregnancy may cause withdrawal symptoms in the neonate.
Tryptophan is a amnio acid, you don't get prescriptions for it.
Women who are pregnant or nursing should not take valerian without medical advice because the possible risks to the fetus or infant have not been evaluated. Not to mention that it is OTC and Jack gave her medicine from a prescription bottle.
SSRI's take at a minimum 21 to 28 days to become effective this would not help Claire who id due in 7 days

[spidermanfan]

In Jack's defense, he is working with a very limited medicine cabinet. He tried to do the best thing he could do keep Claire from triggering a premature labor.

[Elrond]

If Jack is so good with relaxtion techniques (Shannon and her asthma) then why does he try that? He she is due in a week then thats not really premature. You don't give people medicine just because it's available.

[WaffleWaffle]

Maybe whatever he gave Claire was not primarily a sedative- so not the benzos etc. already discussed. I was in a terrible car accident days before my daughter's birth & given morphine. Once I came to I was naturally very worried about baby. My OB told us that all evidence pointed to no danger to baby from a brief use of morphine at that stage.

[WaffleWaffle]

Maybe whatever he gave Claire was not primarily a sedative- so not the benzos etc. already discussed. I was in a terrible car accident days before my daughter's birth & given morphine. Once I came to I was naturally very worried about baby. My OB told us that all evidence pointed to no danger to baby from a brief use of morphine at that stage.

[drabauer]

Waffle--that's what I meant. I said I WOULDN'T give a pregnant woman Chloral hydrate, and I didn't say triptophan and valerian were prescriptions. There are new SSRIs that work in one week, but have a mildly sedative affect in 48 hours. Anyway, that's not the point!

The point of the scene: 1) Jack is in an emergency situation and--as he has from day one--had to make a choice that involved the lesser of two evils. Constantly, from the guy whose leg was crushed to the marshal, Shannon, Charlie, Sayid, et al it's all about choices--some good, some bad. In this case premature pregnancy outside of sanitary conditions with no medical backup vs. one dose of a sedative.

2) Jack could have gotten Claire to take the drug if he approached her differently, but he has no bedside manner. THis of course has a much larger dramatic implication: Jack has been emotionally stunted all his life, and this is something his character may work out in future eps.

dr a out |I

[Yorke]

Elrond, are you by chance a PharmD?

[tavella]

Um, guys. Let me suggest to you: Google is not the end all and be-all of medical knowledge. There are sedatives that are prescribed to pregnant women.

[Elrond]

Yes I am a Pharm.D. my clinical experience is my reference.

[morbius47]

Point to Elrond.

[tavella]

Given that one of my friends was prescribed a sedative during pregnancy (for really horrible insomnia, in her case) there's clearly at least one sedative that is pregnancy-safe, since I doubt they would prescribe anything even mildly risky for insomnia.

[WaffleWaffle]

Yorke, you are right about the balancing act with the lesser of two evils, which is usually the case with medicating during pregnancy, and thanks for the point to the lack of bedside manner. So everyone is right. Jack knows his technical medicine stuff, but not his people medicine stuff.

[WaffleWaffle]

ooops, meant drabauer, not Yorke. Sorry.

[killbuckner]

I think it is more of a deal where the producers don't know medicine and simply know less abou this than Elrond. They just have a layman's understanding of this stuff and are writing it from that point of view.

[joepa15425]

as i mentioned in another post. the writers seem to pay close attention to detail. Why waste a scene on something with medicine that if it actually means nothing to the plot then is poorly written. TV writers break scenes and dialogue down by the seconds cause there is such little time to tell a story( l learned that from watching the Seinfeld DVD's). There would have been many ways to tell Claire she needs rest without prescribing something that A is in short supply and B not a good remedy for a pregnant woman. I think the folks in the caves despite all their heroics aren't what they all appear to be.

[cinderellabop]

Actually, Jack probably should have asked Sun to prepare another eucalyptus mixture for Claire. Eucalyptus has a calming, sedative-like effect, is commonly used in relaxation aromatherapy, and could not possibly harm the baby, because it is not taken internally. Plus it grows naturally on the island, so it is a renewable resource!

[Chance Gardener]

I find it interesting that the possibility that it was perhaps not a sedative, but for Claire to think it was (placebo) isn't being considered.

But there was no indication of that from the writers!! you say. So. Writers prerogative to further the story.

Since Claire was 1 to 2 wks away, I doubt there'd be any possible defect concerns to the baby at this point. The withdrawal issue is a concern, but being premature is probably a greater risk. Further, Jack may have only been intending her to take one dose, just to calm her at that point only. That would have lessened the impact on the baby as well.

What I think the scene demonstrates is that Jack is impulsive, doesn't think through on the consequences of his choices before he makes them, and does not seem to be a people person.

Pulling the knife out of Sawyer demonstrated more ineptitude in my opinion than offering mild sedatives (as was stated, we don't know the exact type - if you argue are going to argue for a specific one cause the writers researched it, then you should probably allow that they also noted the possible side effects in this research; it's possible they just were going for the image sedative = calming and left it at that as well) to a pregnant woman. But I refer to my impulsive, unthinking, asocial comments above on that incident as well.

[rottenralf]

I used to do product resets in pharmacies. I can't count how many times the pharmacist would come out and grab a bottle of vitamin C or Ibuprofin to fill a perscription. So many times shelf strength items would be put in a perscription bottle (whether it was medicaide or medicare, I don't know), so it might a been Calm Forte (sp?) or some other herbal seditive in a perscription bottle, or even a mild OTC drug. For we know, he may of been using Folic Acid as a placebo to calm her down. That might show he knows medicine and psychology.

[morbius47]

I dated a pharmacist once, I'll see if I can find out what she thinks.


Ethan.

[anotherheather]

I was given sedatives during my pregnancy with no adverse affects to my daughter. What I don't understand is his worry over the baby being 1 or 2 weeks early? My daughter was almost 4 weeks early and already 8 lbs. If she had gone full term, I would have needed a C-section. 1 or 2 weeks would be better for the mother, not worse. Without medical equipment a smaller baby is much safer to deliver. My daughter was fully developed at 36 weeks - the pediatrician determined her age by analyzing the wrinkles in her feet - other than that you couldn't tell the difference from a full term baby.

[Feldspar]

I think this is simply a case of the writers not being doctors. Jack, the character, acts and says what they tell him to. Medical professionals may look at this and shake their head in dismay but those outside the fields of medicine would be completely oblivious to this.

I've heard the same assertions made towards ER.

My neighbor is from Russia. She watched The Terminal. Tom Hanks is speaking Russian in it. I hear it and think 'Wow, Russian.' She heard it and said 'He can't speak Russian.'

[Elrond]

A couple of points:
1)" I was in a terrible car accident days before my daughter's birth & given morphine. Once I came to I was naturally very worried about baby. My OB told us that all evidence pointed to no danger to baby from a brief use of morphine at that stage." And your OB is right, but morphine is not a "very mild sedative" and Jack tried to hand her a handful of pills not a single dose as you took.
2)" In this case premature pregnancy outside of sanitary conditions with no medical backup vs. one dose of a sedative."
How is waiting one more week on the island going to be anymore sanitary? Jack has already decided help is not coming for a long time, also it wasn't a single dose as i pointed out in point 1.
3)"Given that one of my friends was prescribed a sedative during pregnancy (for really horrible insomnia, in her case) there's clearly at least one sedative that is pregnancy"
OK clearly my opinion but when Jack says "a very mild sedative" he is reffering to anti-anxiety medication not hypnotics which are used to help you go to sleep, more than likely your friend was given Ambien which is not a benzo. Claire is not having insomnia so the goal is not to cause enough sedation to pass her out just calm her down.
4)"There would have been many ways to tell Claire she needs rest without prescribing something that A is in short supply and B not a good remedy for a pregnant woman. I think the folks in the caves despite all their heroics aren't what they all appear to be." "Actually, Jack probably should have asked Sun to prepare another eucalyptus mixture for Claire. Eucalyptus has a calming, sedative-like effect, is commonly used in relaxation aromatherapy, and could not possibly harm the baby, because it is not taken internally" All very good points, something doesn't add up (bad writers?). Jack can apperently calm down Shannon he knows about Sun and the Eucalyptus so why doesn't he try these, on the show they have already proven to work. Why one week is all about herbal and non-pharmcologic treatment and the next week Jacks giving out sedatatives like it's candy?
5"Since Claire was 1 to 2 wks away, I doubt there'd be any possible defect concerns to the baby at this point. The withdrawal issue is a concern, but being premature is probably a greater risk. Further, Jack may have only been intending her to take one dose, just to calm her at that point only" It only takes a few doese to cause birth defects. The fetus is very small it only takes a very small concentration of a drug to cause harm. As I said he dumped out a handful of pills, why calm her down once? After the next nightmare don't you think she will become anxious again.
6"What I don't understand is his worry over the baby being 1 or 2 weeks early?" Exactly being 1 week earky is not a big problem.
7. OK this idea might be completly shot down after tonights episode, but what if Jack never went to med school? All we know is that he talked about doing a surgery while on his recidency. What if he is like Locke and the walkabout? Does Locke really know how to trap wild games and how to field dress a boar? Maybe the island is letting him become what he wants to be.
8. If you were giving sedatives during pregnancy was it by your OB? Some one who has had years of experince in pregnancy and has mostly studied obstrectics? Some one who has followed you through the whole course of your pregnancy and knows you. Or would you trust some MD in a walk in clinic who knew nothing about your medically history?

[LostInWilderness]

There is plenty of evidence that Jack is a poor doctor without leaving the "Lost" universe.

I sincerely doubt that the "Lost" writers have been through medical school, but I firmly believe, that contrasts between episodes, life-or-death issues, and symbolism matter in the show.

In episode 1, Jack calmly and coherently administered CPR to Rose while scolding Boone. In episode 11, Jack self-destructed while trying to administer CPR to Charlie.

Jack failed the Marshall. Jack failed Shannon (Sun saved her.) Jack assisted torture. Jack has been unable to heal himself or those close to him over and over. Claire ran from him. I don't need to see Discovery ER to know Jack is a bad doctor; the show make it evident, within the context of the series, pretty much every episode.

[Hodgepodge]

LostInWilderness says:
In episode 11, Jack self-destructed while trying to administer CPR to Charlie.

Jack failed the Marshall. Jack failed Shannon (Sun saved her.) Jack assisted torture. Jack has been unable to heal himself or those close to him over and over. Claire ran from him. I don't need to see Discovery ER to know Jack is a bad doctor; the show make it evident, within the context of the series, pretty much every episode.
I personally think Jack handled the Charlie crisis with complete aplomb. Imagine, you're running along in the jungle, and you find a friend hanging from a tree. He acted with knowledge and speed, when he grabbed Charlie's legs to support his weight. He got Kate to clime an adjoining tree to cut him down. He administrated CPR, and refused to give up when Kate assumed there was no use continuing.

The case of the Marshall was not much different. Our doctor finds a man with a huge piece of metal sticking out of his midsection. He diagnoses the problem, and determines the guy isn't going to make it unless the shrapnel is removed.

He gets Hurley to go through the luggage looking for any medications, especially antibiotics. He tries to perform a delicate operation without any surgical tools, just using what he's found. The Marshall doesn't make it, but not because we didn't have a heroic and knowledgeable doctor on the case.

Jack is a spinal surgeon, not a herbalist. The things he was involved in since the crash, there would be no reason he would've spotted a mentholated plant. He knew exactly how to calm Shannon down when it looked like she was going to panic.

You mentioned Claire running from Jack. Both you and I saw the nightmare that woke Claire. There was no reason to think Ethan was after her and the baby at that point. What did our doctor do? He offered her a mild sedative to calm her nerves. He didn't want her to go into premature labor. He knew at this stage of her pregnancy, there might be complications.

Tell me, what else do you want from a doctor?

[azteclady]

I agree with Hodgepodge in his defense of Jack in this particular context - mostly because I don't see any of the characters as totally black or totally whites. To me, humans come in different shades of grey and a well written show should make this evident to the audience. As far as I'm concerned, LOST is such a show.

Furthermore, regarding Jack's different reactions between resucitating Rose and coming apart over Charlie, allow me to point out:
With Rose, he's tending to a complete stranger during a moment of immediate crisis -personal and general: the plane crashed and you have survivors and injured people and dying people and dead people all over the place. Jack's doctor's instincts and training kick in and he starts taking charge of what he can. At this point, he has no reason to believe there won't be rescue party heading their way within hours or, at the most, days.
With the marshall, and after the conversation with the pilot and the incident with the invisible tree-shaking, pilot-flaying being, it begins to dawn on Jack that desperate measures must be taken to help this particular patient. However, there's still a possibility that the group will be rescued.
With Charlie, this is not only a friend his trying to bring back, but a friend that he's found hanging from a tree! This after having to put a man out of his mysery (the same man he's tried so desperately to save!), and while feeling incredibly guilty (deservedly or not, that's another debate) about Claire's kidnapping and the nightmare/sedative debacle of the night before.

While I'm typing this, I would like people to take into account that I'm also in the camp that would like to see Jack get over his 'daddy issues' and stop contradicting himself (head over to the Why don't people like Jack (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm13.showMes sage?topicID=37.topic)? thread to see what I mean)


Beto
see the link in my sig? It's there for a reason

[LostInWilderness]

Hodgepodge and azteclady, glad you responded. I thought I was posting wrong or something. ;)

I believe both of you made my point with regard to Jack's CPR on Rose and Charlie. Jack was professional with Rose, and overwhelmed by his personal feelings with Charlie. IMO, this is one of Jack's weaknesses along with his obsessiveness and being myopic.

In your discussions of Jack's work with the Marshall and Shannon, you both come up with a real-world defense. I don't think a real-world comparison is appropriate. Jack failed to save both the Marshall and Shannon. The writers didn't have him succeed, they had him fail. He simply didn't have the skill to save the Marshall, and he was too myopic to save Shannon. Note that he immediately recognized Sun's herbs, but he never considered an alternative to torturing Sawyer. I think this is very telling about Jack's character.

Throw in the other facts we know from the show: He cut the spinal fluid bag of his first patient (yet she survived - luck?) Hospital staff called his off-duty father instead of calling on-duty Jack. He failed the Marshall, Shannon, and IMO Charlie. Jack did not save Charlie - he lost all self-control and nearly beat Charlie to death. Something else saved Charlie - maybe Jack's obsession or luck, but not his skill as a doctor (see my episode 11 post.)

Add to that all the small symbolic things we know: Jack can't heal his cut, he needs Kate to heal him - that theme is the most prevalent theme of the show. Sayid and Sawyer can heal their relationship. Kate can heal her relationship with Sawyer. Jack can't heal his relationship with Sawyer. This is a variant on the same theme. Jack can't heal his relationship with either of his parents. He can't save the drowning woman. Charlie has to save him from the cave-in. Etc.

What a "real" doctor would do in a "real" crash is immaterial to the show. The writers are telling us Jack is a crappy doctor. FYI, Jack and Kate are my favorite characters because they are so complex. The writers hooked me from the first episode with Jack and Kate. Jack is a poor doctor, and Matthew Fox is good actor despite "Party of Five." ;)

[azteclady]

LostInWilderness,

I disagree with you in several counts. Briefly:

A) I don't see how you come to the conclusion that Jack was/is a poor doctor outside of the island. Please rewatch the flashbacks both in the operating room and afterwards, and you'll notice that your statement about calling Dr. Christian Shepherd while he was off duty rather than calling Jack, who was on duty, falls in the face of Jack having been assigned elsewhere and yet being called in by the nurses and staff. As far as I'm concerned, and based on what I've seen, Jack was indeed a really good doctor in his life prior to the plane crash.

B) You say that Jack failed to heal his relationship with both his father and his mother. Personal experience tells me that it takes two to tango, and that in order to survive, a person may be forced to make the decision of stopping trying to make a family relationship work. As far as I'm concerned, bravo to before-the-crash Jack for speaking up about his father's addiction.

C) Jack's cut on his back, from the crash - symbolic? It's on his back, so tv show or not and unless both Matthew Fox and Jack are tripple jointed, I wonder how he was supposed to sew himself up when he could barely see the gash and there was/is no mirror around. But that's just me.



Beto
see my sig? is there for a reason

[Hodgepodge]

LostInWilderness, in both your posts you mention the torture of Sawyer. What does the torture of Sawyer have to do with the practice of medicine?

The title of thread is, 'Jack doesn't know medicine part II'. No where in the title or your initial statement, 'There is plenty of evidence that Jack is a poor doctor without leaving the "Lost" universe', does it mention person or human being. If we stick to the above mentioned statements, I think both Azteclady and I have refuted your arguments.

If you want to talk about the character Jack as a person or human being, I see you've found the other threads within this forum. I'll make those comments there.

[LostInWilderness]

First, torturing Sawyer is clearly a violation of the Hippocratic oath. IMO, that implies Jack is a bad doctor. Second, when Shannon couldn't breath and they couldn't get an inhaler, Jack chose to help torture Sawyer instead of looking for an alternative cure. IMO, this also implies Jack is a bad doctor. I think the writers purposely set up this drastic contrast, torturing Sawyer versus finding eucalyptus, to inform us that Jack is a bad doctor who makes bad medical decisions.

[LostInWilderness]

azteclady, we're going to have to agree to disagree on several things.

However, the writers didn't have to put Jack's cut on his back, but they did, and it must be for a reason. It may have been just to allow Jack to meet Kate, but I think it has more significance - it is one of the little things that show Jack can't heal people. It's other symbolism is that Jack can't heal his psyche without help, probably from Kate.

[LostInWilderness]

Jack the surgeon diagnosed Sawyer's bad vision and figured out a way to fix it. That was pretty good doctoring this time.

If he saves Boone, I'll have to eat my words about Jack being a bad doctor.

If Boone dies, I'll have to eat my words predicting Locke will die.

I'm going to have to eat some words somewhere. ;)

[Lostinthewaves]

Hmm sorry for interfering in "your" discussion here. But i can´t see how you could possibly draw the conclusion that the writers are telling us that Jack is a poor doctor. But since you guys already "battled it out" I don´t have anything to add :)

Well, there´s one thing - In a flashback - Jacks father also said that he was one of the most talented surgeons in the city. I don´t think you´ve mentioned that.

[azteclady]

Lostinthewaves, I think you have a wicked sense of humor!


Beto
see the sig? is there for a reason

[LostInWilderness]

In case you didn't see my prediction in the Deus Ex Machina episode thread, I predict Jack saves Boone, but Boone is in horrible pain that Jack can't fix. Charlie will end up going after the heroin to "help Boone." This might be my way out.;)

I thought I mentioned Jack's dad saying he was a great doctor, but I dismissed it as Jack's dad buttering Jack up so Jack didn't blow the horn on him.

[Aeli Nekana]

Lol...being a pharmacy student, I just find this thread very entertaining!:lol Interesting too, though, I must admit!

[azteclady]

Aeli Nekana, Welcome!!!

If you have been lurking [as it seems] ignore anything after the welcome.

If you haven't lurked, please read a bit before posting - with over 5500 members and over a year in existence, there's a lot that's been covered. Try to contribute to open threads whenver possible.

Thank you!

[Aeli Nekana]

Thanks! I have been lurking for a bit...ok, I've been lurking a LOT, actually...:lol

[LostInWilderness]

My prediction was way off. After "Do No Harm" I think it's safe to say Jack is a very skilled doctor who has problems because he gets obsessed with saving his patients. He took a step in getting over that obsession in this episode.

[feenie1010]

I work for a surgeon, an ophthalmologist, and in the part where Jack says "don't tell me what to do" goes hand in hand with the promise of not letting Boone go. THAT attitude is very typical not just of doctors but of surgeons.

They sometimes forget that there are disease conditions that CAN'T be cured or tamed but they do their best to prove the world wrong. Ever see the movie with Alec Baldwin & Nicole Kidman, "Malicious Intent" I believe, where he is asked as a doctor if he has a God complex and he answers with his pedigree and "I AM God"...that's the world of surgeons.

So not sure if it's Jack with his baggage or Jack being a surgeon.

[StickMang]

I thikn LostInWilderness is right at the last post. Jack is quite skilled at traditional techniques, and is doing quite well considering where they are and what they have. But unfortunately, his surroundings are not conducive to long-term successes, lacking proper equipment, materials and instrumentation.

LIW is also right in that there seemed to be some psychological pressure taken off of Jack when Boone absolved him of any failure. Perhaps this, and the concerned nod from Sun, will catalyze a turning point for a more gounded psyche, rather than the incarnate surgeon status that feenie alludes to.

Alternative treatments would have greater potential efficacy on a remote island than traditional techniques alone, since for the moment, they lack modern (or outerworldly) technologies.

Sun seemed to have a bit more than herbalist lore in today's episode. She seemed quite comfortable at the bedside, and was ready to provide herbal treatment again. What struck me was her quick diagnosis of Boone's medical prognosis. Perhaps it could be viewed as common sense, but it strikes me as skill. Perhaps she studied natural medicine when she studied languages, and is a skilled practitioner of alternative medicine or natural techiques.

I think Sun is the key to Jack's change of luck from those patients who have died using his current knowledge. Sun will be his transition soul mate, helping him to adjust to this new existence, accomplished by not throwing out all he knew of traditional medicine, but complementing it with her natural techniques.

And who knows what could come of such synergies...

-Mang

[5MinuteMjr]

I think this less a case of Jack being a bad doctor then the writers being bad at medicine.

In the scene with Charlie he checks for pulse then administers a precordial thump, not CPR, not rescue breathing. Why? The answer is simple a precordial thump while incredibly inefficient and most likely damaging is much more dramatic then the other things a "real" medical person would have used.

I believe it is their (meaning the writers) intention to make make Jack a very skilled Doctor and any evidence to the contrary is in the writing.

[LostInWilderness]

It seems Desmond or fate or something had a hand in Jack's fixing of Sarah. Maybe Jack isn't a good doctor, and some force ran around making him seem better than he was. Saving Charlie for instance.

[Hodgepodge]

LostInWilderness says:It seems Desmond or fate or something had a hand in Jack's fixing of Sarah. Maybe Jack isn't a good doctor, and some force ran around making him seem better than he was. Saving Charlie for instance. Yeah, this really has me stumped! I don't know what to make of Desmond knowledge of Sarah's diagnosis.

LIW, give me your views?

[LostInWilderness]

I'm kind of digesting this. You remember when I first joined the board I was adamant that Jack was not a good doctor. That view changed when his father said Jack was better than him. Now I have to wonder.

He was very calm in the crisis in the emergency room and allowed Shannon's dad (I assume) to die while saving Sarah. But then we see him get overly emotionally involved as he often does, and I'm certain Jack's skill did not fix Sarah's spine. Maybe his emotion helped, and the same when Charlie came back to life.

Maybe some power has been helping Jack his entire medical career, or at least since he met Desmond.

[Hodgepodge]

LostInWilderness says:...He was very calm in the crisis in the emergency room and allowed Shannon's dad (I assume) to die while saving Sarah. But then we see him get overly emotionally involved as he often does, and I'm certain Jack's skill did not fix Sarah's spine. Maybe his emotion helped, and the same when Charlie came back to life.

Maybe some power has been helping Jack his entire medical career, or at least since he met Desmond.LIW, this is very interesting! As I mentioned in my previous post, I don't know what to make of this.

I like the idea of Jack being "special" like Walt and possibly Shannon. Only in another way! And I think you're right, his skills had nothing to do with Sarah's recovery. So that brings the ball back into Desmond's court.

We definitely have another back-story to come. How does Jack go from, his patient regaining mobility, and him marrying her?

[anu]

Throw in the other facts we know from the show: He cut the spinal fluid bag of his first patient (yet she survived - luck?)

What I would like to know is what kind of a place are they running when someone's first solo procedure is a friggin' 13-hour spinal surgery.

I mean really.

What also makes me giggle every single time is Capt. America's slow, bendy-armed CPR technique. Granted, they do it the same way in all the tv shows, for some reason realistic CPR just doesn't look as cool. In real life, CPR is done keeping your arms straight, using the weight of your body, not the muscles in your arms, and a lot faster than they do it on tv.