Where did Jack learn to shoot?

[LostInWilderness]

Jack won't let the lostaways have guns because he won't put guns in untrained people's hands.

Sayid was a soldier.
Locke was a natural who hunted with his father.
Sawyer was a crook who killed a polar bear with a 9mm. :O
Kate was crook who shot people.

What about Jack? When, where, and why did Jack learn to use a gun? I doubt his dad taught him how. Any guesses?

[Hersh]

Remind me which episode showed Jack shooting a gun and I can think about it.

I don't remember when/where Jack shoots a gun at all.

Kate was crook who shot people.Hmm this brings up a question I wanted to ask you guys. I'll post in Kate's forums.

[azteclady]

Hersh, I have a feeling that you are missing LostInWilderness's point.

How come that Jack gets to decide who has access to the guns and ammunitions? Simply because he got the case and its key? But furthermore, he justifies not giving a gun to Charlie by saying (paraphrasing) "we cannot afford to give a gun to someone who doesn't know how to use it." And yet, Jack himself keeps one for himself.

This implies that Jack does know how to use a gun, and we don't need to see him use it. The narrative tells us.


So. The question stands: how did he learn to use it?

[banshee]

I think Jack has every rt to have the key....He & Kate to that pt were the only ones who knew there were guns in the case. What would it accomplish by letting the key or guns be open to the public? A high stress situation, he's right, ppl would fire at the slightest noise...I don't see what would be solved in handing the key to Locke or anyone else. Jack was the one that Kate tried to pull a bait & switch on in digging up the Marshal under false pretenses. It was supposed to be for the good of the group but in actuality, it was to get the toy plane.

I think Jack is often a damned if he does damned if he doesn't character......His multiple roles of leader, doctor & main character make it so he can't possibly please folks on both sides of the fence. I'd venture to say he'd get criticized as a poor leader/irresponsible if he passed off the Ethan operation to someone else. That it was his job to be out ther getting his hands dirty instead of allowing other ppl to put their lives in danger while he sits by the camp fire... He knew Charlie had just been through a very traumatic event, & likely was too emotionally close to the situation. They needed Ethan alive, & as was seen Charlie reacted emotionally. I can't say if it had been anyone else they wouldn't have done the same.

Adding Jack also had gone up against Ethan before so had some insight into their opponent...Ultimately Jack is always looking out for the good of the group...He was concerned about ppl's safety first & foremost....He's an intellegent man & even if he had never fired, it's not too difficult to figure...By the way he disassembled the gun in Outlaws, he knew what he was doing to an extent. I think ppl will understand better as the season goes on.

[azteclady]

Welcome, banshee! I hope you enjoy your time in the community.

Now, as for Jack...

What you say has merit on its own but doesn't focus on the one question asked: when, why, how did Jack learn to use a gun?

I don't want to threadjack LostInWilderness discussion to address all the other points in your post (unless LIW gives me leave, then I'll do so, extensively), but I encourage you to read several of the other threads going on right here, and participate with your own view of the character.

[banshee]

hi aztec-

thanks for the welcome :)

sorry to expound on tangents :b ...I was addressing the q's you raised in your post...I just edited up there too LOL to specfically touch on where I felt he got his training. Although I don't want to spoil his background for ppl.

guess I gave myself away I'm a big Jack fan ;) Again thanks for the welcome :)

[azteclady]

banshee wrote:
"He's an intellegent man & even if he had never fired, it's not too difficult to figure...By the way he disassembled the gun in Outlaws, he knew what he was doing to an extent. I think ppl will understand better as the season goes on."

I have to disagree with you here. I'm an intelligent person myself, with reasonable manual dexterity and adept at figuring out how to operate say, power tools, without necessarily poring over every page of the user's manual. Let's assume for a moment that Jack's handling of the gun is the equivalent of this, and let for the moment gloss over the fact that when Sawyer asked him about the ammunition (the bullet size, I believe it was), Jack's face showed utter lack of understanding.

Knowing how to put bullets in a catridge does not translate into accurate aim or into sang froid. Jack of all people should know - given his experience as a surgeon - that in critical situations you need people who know what they are doing. He explicitely indicates this when he says he's not giving Charlie a gun because Charlie obviously has no experience with one. That lack of experience, Jack argues, could easily result in dire consequences - such as Charlie mistakenly injuring/wounding/killing one of the other survivors.

Hence, the conclusion we should draw there is that Jack knows his way around a gun, right? Because if he doesn't, the responsible thing to do as a leader is to find those survivors who do and commission them into the team. But then we are back to that little exchange with Sawyer, which clearly indicates that Jack himself is not proficient with guns.

So what we see is that Jack seems to want it both ways. On the one hand, he dismisses one person who's volunteering, on the grounds that that individual lacks the proper training. On the other hand, Jack himself lacks the same training, but never even vacillates about being part of the ambushing group.

Regarding the guns and the ammunition, the argument that since Jack has the key and the case, then he should be the one making the decisions over their use is, once again, weak and incomplete.

It's akin in my mind as saying that the president (of any democratic country - not turning this into a discourse/debate in politics, just using as analogy) should have direct control over all weapons in the country - which plainly doesn't make sense - never mind the fact that it would be impossible to maintain even at a city's level. What does make sense if to have designated social institutions (at a local level, police departments) whose purpose is the use of weapons for the greater good (protection of the citizenry), and legal parameters for these institutions to follow.

In the island, it would make much more sense for Jack to study his fellow survivors and choose those he knows have the required knowledge/training and that he believes can trust to put the interest of the group as a whole before their individual gain. Then he should give them the guns and the ammunition. The first candidate for that (to me) would be Sayid, followed by Locke (given what Jack knows of the man), but from there on is gets murky - I'm not sure I would trust Kate farther than I can throw her uphill, and Sawyer presents himself as the embodiment of self interest.

*pausing for breath*

And all of this once again skirts the question: where, why, how did Jack learn to use a gun?

(To me the question can't/shouldn't be asked since I don't see that Jack knows how to use a gun)


I. HATE. TYPOS

[banshee]

agree to disagree I guess because I don't feel the points I raised are weak.....Jack's leader, only he & Kate knew of the guns until he revealed them. It would have been pointless to pass the key or responsibility for the gun case off to someone else because it wouldn't have accomplished anything.... There would be no benefit in having announced to the camp, before such time the guns were needed, that they had them in their possession. So he gives the responsibility of the case to another person-what has this achieved?

Jack did note who seemed to have experience, & passed the guns out accordingly...He based his decisons on the information he had which was either a)a person demonstrated ability to use one, like Sawyer in shooting the polar bear & the Marshal or b) had plausible reason to have used a weapon in the past-i.e. Locke in being a hunter who in front of Jack, showed he knew how to use one, or Sayid who was a trained soldier...They had 4 guns til Sawyer whipped his out...Charlie said nothing to their inquiries about whether he knew how to use one. Instead gave a sheepish look he didn't, so they could only assume he was telling the truth...I also recall Jack conferring w/Locke & Sayid in the cave who the 4th gun should go to.

Were he to ask Kate outright, & that's assuming who she killed was w/a gun, ppl would wonder why Jack assumed she knew how to use one. Her secret is then brought into suspicion. Obviously Sawyer figured it out because he saw her carrying the metal case.....Jack in a way was trying to protect her not only from getting harmed by Ethan, but in giving credence to Sawyer's suspicions from WTCMB...Matter of fact Kate even acted like she didn't know how to use one in Pilot part 2, which we know isn't true.

We also don't have proof Jack doesn't know how to use one...He may have limited knowledge in comparison to Sawyer, but it doesn't prove he doesn't know how to use one.. So I find the debate to prove or disprove he can use it, & therefore should or shouldn't have had one, hypothetical at best.

[LostInWilderness]

I agree with Azteclady that Jack doesn't know a lot about firearms - certainly not ammunition, but I'll bet dollars to donuts he's used one before. He was comfortable enough in handling a gun to make me think that. Jack didn't take Locke or Sayid aside and ask for some pointers, either.

IMO, banshee, Jack didn't give Kate a gun because they already had 4 shooters. Why bring along unarmed Kate to this dangerous trap? Especially since Kate had just tried to scam him to get the gun case to herself.

[banshee]

I'd agree LIW-that he doesn't have extensive experience, but he has used one before.

I'd also agree with you he didn't want Kate to come because he felt she'd be in danger, & it was unnecessary...Jack never outwardly says I'm worried you'll get hurt, he always tries to use a masked excuse to keep Kate out of harm's way. It even prompted her at one pt to say "If I didn't know any better, I'd say you're worried about me Jack."

I don't think it had anything to do w/what happened in WTCMB though....Jack isn't one to rub it in, & even though it had been Kate who should have apologized, it was him in HM who reached out the olive branch. He started talking to her, & gave her the seeds which indicated he empathized w/why she felt the need to lie to an extent, while gently reminding her of what happened "it's hard to tell w/you sometimes." So by the time we got to Homecoming, I don't believe what happened w/the case was a factor in his not wanting her to go.

[Hodgepodge]

Well, like a lot of things in Lost, we have to assume Jack has the wherewithal to handle a gun. LIW, raises a question we have know way of answering without assuming this fact. And the way Jack lost the gun in the fight with Ethan, was kind of comical. I understand it executed a plot twist, but the guy has hands like putty.

I'd like to also welcome Banshee to Lost-TV. And, to agree with her on the fact Kate brought Jack into the gun fiasco, with a lie. Jack being the leader that he is, recognized the ramifications of having the knowledge of guns broadcasted throughout the campsites, decided to keep them under lock-and-key.

[Sledgeweb]

Why is there so much debate about something that can't be resolved at this point?

For all we know, uncle Leo taught Jack how to shoot a gun during their camping trip when he was 10 years old.

Besides, even if he's never used a gun, it's not too difficult to figure out. As Charlie says, "I think you just pull the trigger." Assuming Charlie doesn't know how to use a gun, he did a fine job of it when he shot Ethan several times from a distance.

The only other thing you really need to know, is that there is a safety and a magazine release, which anyone who watches TV or movies knows.

I think the reason Jack keeps a gun for himself, regardless of whether or not he has used a gun before, is quite simple: he needed to get the guns back, so he wasn't going to give them all away. Would you want to try and go get a gun back from Sawyer without having a gun as well? By giving away all the weapons, he would have given up his authority over the guns. Can't you just picture him whining... "Guys, c'mon. Give me the guns back now. Guys! C'mon", as the other survivors toss the guns over Jack's head to one another, playing keep away.

He also has taken responsibility for the guns, because he is concerned for everyone's safety. So, it would be irresponsible of him to hand out the guns and just say, "Ok, go have fun! Just bring them back to me within a day or two, whatever is best for you!". Of course he is going to go with them, which means taking one of the guns.

[LostInWilderness]

The reason I brought it up is I wondered, and we don't have any new episodes to dissect. It's interesting we've seen all the other shooters use a gun in a flashback except Jack. I don't think it's a coincidence.

[Hodgepodge]

Sledgeweb says:...Would you want to try and go get a gun back from Sawyer without having a gun as well? By giving away all the weapons, he would have given up his authority over the guns. Can't you just picture him whining... "Guys, c'mon. Give me the guns back now. Guys! C'mon", as the other survivors toss the guns over Jack's head to one another, playing keep away...I'm still laughing at this visual. :lol Thanks Sledgeweb!

[tavella]

He looked pretty comfortable snapping those guns apart, so I'm guessing he's had some experience. Just not the sort where he was familiar with gun slang.

[banshee]

thanks for the welcome HodgePodge :)