View Full Version : Ben - good or evil?
zerokarma
05-10-07, 04:28 AM
For all the ranting and raving that Ben and the others have done about people being "good" and their distaste for "bad people" tonight's episode sure does cast Ben as a bad person. He killed his father, he helped take part in massacure of Dharma. How can Ben or the others judge so much who is good when they have done many bad things themselves.
Farmer Ted
05-10-07, 04:29 AM
He's kind of a tool-burger, if you ask me.
AceOfDiamonds
05-10-07, 04:30 AM
Killed his father? Ehh, who cares. Half the characters on this TV show wanted to kill their fathers.
Participated in the Purge? Ehh, so what. I'm awfully curious as to what happened to Ben's little girlfriend, though. Wonder if she was purged, too.
KILLED JOHN LOCKE????
Ben is so hideous he deserves to be mauled by fifty thousand siberian tigers. At once. With Jack. At the bottom of a dark pit.
zerokarma
05-10-07, 04:39 AM
Kate killed her father and was villified, how is Ben killing his father any different?
HellsChicken
05-10-07, 04:40 AM
But I think I see where he says they are the "good guys" from now. It's all in his final speech to Locke. He points out how Dharma came to the island to live harmoniously, and yet they couldn't get along with the natives. I think Ben saw it like the Europeans coming to the Americas and just brutally slaughtering the natives, so he stuck up for the underdog.
Farmer Ted
05-10-07, 04:45 AM
Kate killed her father and was villified, how is Ben killing his father any different?
I believe Ace was joking.
AceOfDiamonds
05-10-07, 05:11 AM
It was more me expressing absolute rage at Ben shooting Locke, and not really caring about Ben's father by comparison.
*Saint*
05-10-07, 06:08 AM
I'm honestly so confused with this episode.
The episode is consistent with all of the 'daddy-issues' each of our Losties have, so it came as no surprise to me that Ben didn't like his dad.
But purging the Dharma folks because he hates his father?? I don't get it.
What did they use to kill them?? It almost reminded me of Jonestown (only with no kool-aid.)
shollia
05-10-07, 06:11 AM
Yeah, I don't really understand why they killed all of the Dharma folks either.
And speaking of Dharma vs Natives... why on earth would the natives be using Dharma's apparent brainwashing techniques? Unless of course it's actually their own invention....
*Saint*
05-10-07, 06:20 AM
Yeah, I don't really understand why they killed all of the Dharma folks either.
And speaking of Dharma vs Natives... why on earth would the natives be using Dharma's apparent brainwashing techniques? Unless of course it's actually their own invention....
...or if they are "hostiles" why Alpert has a nice ROLEX on his WRIST! Hmm...not often you find natives with expensive watch wear!!!!
zetaprime
05-10-07, 06:34 AM
I'm honestly so confused with this episode.
The episode is consistent with all of the 'daddy-issues' each of our Losties have, so it came as no surprise to me that Ben didn't like his dad.
But purging the Dharma folks because he hates his father?? I don't get it.
What did they use to kill them?? It almost reminded me of Jonestown (only with no kool-aid.)
Ben didn't have nearly as good a reason to kill his father as did Locke or Kate. Just because his father was an alcoholic? Roger didn't seem to be abusive to Ben in any way aside from forgetting his birthday.
*Saint*
05-10-07, 06:35 AM
Ben didn't have nearly as good a reason to kill his father as did Locke or Kate. Just because his father was an alcoholic? Roger didn't seem to be abusive to Ben in any way aside from forgetting his birthday.
That can be construed as emotional abuse. Or neglect.
shollia
05-10-07, 06:50 AM
Ben didn't have nearly as good a reason to kill his father as did Locke or Kate. Just because his father was an alcoholic? Roger didn't seem to be abusive to Ben in any way aside from forgetting his birthday.
I don't think Kate had a good reason either... but that's probably just me totally hating her guts.....
Dharma For One
05-10-07, 06:53 AM
I'm honestly so confused with this episode.
The episode is consistent with all of the 'daddy-issues' each of our Losties have, so it came as no surprise to me that Ben didn't like his dad.
But purging the Dharma folks because he hates his father?? I don't get it.
What did they use to kill them?? It almost reminded me of Jonestown (only with no kool-aid.)Ben hated his father and included him in The Purge. The Purge happened for other reasons then just Ben hating his father.
We're all learning the hard way that there's always some other way of looking at things in Lost. For example, the sonic fence being set to below lethal for Patchy. I thought if there's anything that we can be sure of in Lost, it's that Patchy was dead. How wrong that was, and I'm glad because I like the character. In this week's show, however, I think I called it right in my story The Grand Arc, with Ben's group purging the original Dharma employees using a biowarfare agent. The motivations differ, however. In the real show, it's because of the way that Dharma was treating the Hostiles, whom Ben, the admitted liar, claims are the Island's original inhabitants. In my story, it's because Dharma was becoming too militaristic. Perhaps, in the end, Dharma created Jacob and the Whisperers by mistake, by engaging in botched human phase shifting experiments as an Island based covert military research project. But, don't get me started on the Whisperers.
7-Year Ranch
05-10-07, 06:59 AM
...or if they are "hostiles" why Alpert has a nice ROLEX on his WRIST! Hmm...not often you find natives with expensive watch wear!!!!
I don't think the "Hostiles" are natives. I believe they are escapees from a Dharma experiment, possibly Life Extension, which would explain Alpert's apparent lack of aging.
The reason I believe this is because Ben arrived on the island after the "Incident" We know this because Marvin Candle appeared to have a prosthetic arm and white lab coat in the orientation video Ben was watching, which would suggest it was made post-incident.
If this is the case, maybe the Incident was the escape/mutiny of some of the test subjects, who subsequently set themselves up as "Hostiles" Ben became their leader because a) Jacob spoke to him, and b) he was the one who planned the purge.
shollia
05-10-07, 07:03 AM
I don't think the "Hostiles" are natives. I believe they are escapees from a Dharma experiment, possibly Life Extension, which would explain Alpert's apparent lack of aging.
The reason I believe this is because Ben arrived on the island after the "Incident" We know this because Marvin Candle appeared to have a prosthetic arm and white lab coat in the orientation video Ben was watching, which would suggest it was made post-incident.
If this is the case, maybe the Incident was the escape/mutiny of some of the test subjects, who subsequently set themselves up as "Hostiles" Ben became their leader because a) Jacob spoke to him, and b) he was the one who planned the purge.
OO that's good..
So many Jacob could be one of Dharma's escaped experiments as well. I dunno what sort of tests they would've done on him to make him that way, but it sure is interesting to think about!
DonnieNorthwest
05-10-07, 07:08 AM
Unless my theory of him as God's Judge is true, I'm going to say evil. He is freaking crazy!
Yeah mass murder ranks as pretty evil in my book...
I dont think many people would ever consider Ben to be good
LightSide/DarkSide
05-10-07, 07:20 AM
God is her own judge. Ben is just a complete whacko.
Doc Manhattan
05-10-07, 07:23 AM
Yeah, Ben is a bad mother... very Anthony Perkins. By default, I'd have to lump Richard as one of the bad guys as well. I'm still on the fence with Tom.
Yeah, Ben's pretty...messed up.
I hope Tom got there later like Juliet. I like him. I don't want him to be a genocidal nut. :(
snivellusfriend
05-12-07, 08:40 PM
I've been reading other posts expressing disgust at Ben's behavior and I really wanted to say that I don't believe Ben is evil.
Here's what I responded to in another forum.
Quote:
Did anyone else think that when Ben closed Horace's eyes after he had died it was his way of thanking him for bringing him to the island?
Yes, I think Ben was thanking Mr. Goodspeed for being nice to him.
I also think Ben told Richard to leave his father's body out there as a tribute to his father because he'd said he'd liked the view. "Well, you sure can't say it ain't beautiful." Hence, Ben is not evil!
Ben cared enough about his father to let his body rest in a place that he liked and not dumped in a ditch along with the other Dharma people. Ben also closed Mr. Goodspeed's eyes; He meant something to him.
ETA: I noticed that Ben, unlike Richard, gasped sharply and tore off his gas mask, as though he couldn't breath, and I remembered that if you're upset or stressed, you need more oxygen and breathe faster than usual; Ben didn't have any tears on his face, but I think seeing all the dead people did affect him.
Ben also took the time to look at all the dead people; The hostiles didn't and apparently went from house to house to make sure they hadn't missed gassing anyone.
I think all of these actions means that the purge wasn't an easy thing for Ben to do, that he doesn't take death lightly.
Ben wasn't pleased that Locke told him that Jacob wanted his help, but he didn't shoot him again.
Sawyer killed Locke's father and Sun killed Colleen, yet I haven't seen any posts saying they're evil.
Hodgepodge
05-12-07, 10:30 PM
Snivellusfriend, when Ben dies the Devil isn't going to let him into HELL. Talking about bringing down the neighborhood. :nanabobo:
RicoSlim
05-13-07, 12:26 PM
Snivellusfriend, when Ben dies the Devil isn't going to let him into HELL. Talking about bringing down the neighborhood. :nanabobo:
hahahaha, that is correct sir
yea sorry but the last episode proved how evil Ben was, just because he was nice to Horace doesnt mean he isn't evil.. He killed a bunch of innocent people there... I see him leaving his dad in the car actually as a disrespectful thing, like he doesn't even deserve the time of getting his body and throwing in the pitt with the other dharma people. Just let him rot in the jungle. sorry i can't go with you on this one
snivellusfriend
05-13-07, 04:09 PM
After seeing the episode for the first time, I believed Ben was evil and was leaving his father out there as a sign of disrespect, but I rewatched it and remembered that his father told Ben that he liked the view.
Roger: "Well, you sure can't say it ain't beautiful."
Richard: "You want us to go get his body?"
Ben: "No, leave him out there."
If Ben wanted to disrespect his father, why would he leave his body in a place he liked?
Cerberus
05-13-07, 04:43 PM
I think that even though they didn't show it, Ben pushed the van down the hill and it ended up in the jungle where Hurley found it. How else would it end up there?
snivellusfriend
05-13-07, 05:13 PM
I suppose Ben couldv'e done that and tipped over the van himself, but Richard couldv'e also ignored his request (like when he told Locke he could get Sawyer to kill his father) and he and his "hostiles" moved the van.
oh Sniv, tptb have made Ben a turd, I had to accept it too. Michael Emerson is still one of the best actors, but they made his character hateful, when Ben said to Richard, leave him there, about his Father whom he just murdered it was with great disdain. He is so jealous of Locke's island connection that he had to shoot him and left him in the Dharmanium body pit, not cool at all. I also wrote in another thread I didnt like his using his pet bunny to test the fence, I'll still remember how he made S2 for me, but now he has become the villain that I want to see get his due. I'm thinking either Locke or Jacob will be the ones to deliver that package, unless a renegade group of bunnies find him first.
Lost_RuNNeR
05-14-07, 05:14 AM
Ben also took the time to look at all the dead people; The hostiles didn't and apparently went from house to house to make sure they hadn't missed gassing anyone.
I think all of these actions means that the purge wasn't an easy thing for Ben to do, that he doesn't take death lightly.
Ben wasn't pleased that Locke told him that Jacob wanted his help, but he didn't shoot him again.
Sawyer killed Locke's father and Sun killed Colleen, yet I haven't seen any posts saying they're evil.
Good point, but you've gotta admit planning/helping a DHARMA genocide is not a picture of mental health or a normal dose of anger. I kinda like Ben slightly evil. I've seen his human traits over these past seasons, and I love the way they humanized what is essentially the 'evil villain' of LOST. I hope Michael Emerson can avoid TPTB's execution list for another three seasons. He, the mythology and his character deserve it.
Snivellusfriend, when Ben dies the Devil isn't going to let him into HELL. Talking about bringing down the neighborhood
Nice one.
Satan: Welco- *awkward silence*
Ben: Hello, I'm Benjamin Linus. *stares intently*
Satan: Get away from me, man!
Liz-trouve-verlorene
05-14-07, 05:19 AM
After seeing the episode for the first time, I believed Ben was evil and was leaving his father out there as a sign of disrespect, but I rewatched it and remembered that his father told Ben that he liked the view.
If Ben wanted to disrespect his father, why would he leave his body in a place he liked?
I think you're forgetting something important......remember what happened in the few moments before Roger died? Before Ben would've had the chance to *decide* to leave him in a place where he loved the view?
Oh yeah, I remember what happened....Ben sat there and watched his own father die, gasping out his last croaking breath...
Now that, my friends, is evil...
snivellusfriend
05-16-07, 06:56 PM
True; I guess I don't want him to be evil. But Richard started him out on that path. Wouldn't that make him evil, too?
MrSocko
05-16-07, 11:14 PM
I think you're forgetting something important......remember what happened in the few moments before Roger died? Before Ben would've had the chance to *decide* to leave him in a place where he loved the view?
Oh yeah, I remember what happened....Ben sat there and watched his own father die, gasping out his last croaking breath...
Now that, my friends, is evil...
Yeah that was a truly chilling scene. The idea that someone could sit there while their own father suffers a seemingly painful and terrible death... it creeped me out big time.
Ben definitely has his evil side, but theres some good there too. Its a shame his sense of "good" is so distorted that we will probably never see him escape his own evilness.
Lostaway
05-18-07, 05:29 PM
I think its safe to say, Ben is Pure evil.
FrodoFraggins
05-29-07, 11:12 PM
I think it's unfair to call him outright evil. He has had numerous opportunities to wipe out the losties. Not the least of which was in the finale when he could have brought everyone from his camp to intercept the losties heading to the tower.
He values maintaining the isolation of the island above anyone's lives. And I suspect that includes his own. We can't judge his POV until we get a lot more info.
Like everyone, he is neither purely good or evil, but somewhere in between.
Sawyer'sChick
05-31-07, 04:27 AM
True; I guess I don't want him to be evil. But Richard started him out on that path. Wouldn't that make him evil, too?
If Ben is truly evil, then I would agree Richard is the father of evil!
I dont see Richard as evil at all, but as some have said there is no info on the natives to judge them as yet.
Lilyanne
01-13-08, 08:10 PM
does no one notice how hard it is to see him as evil when he says, in finale there,
'every single living person on this island will be killed' (not an exact quote, phrasing may be off)
but please, just find that part for me and play it once or twice. something about his nasally voice and gigantic eyes REALLY inspires awe and terror in you, doesn't it. and the nose. and the hair. I'm sorry, but i think you're just a wee bit too funny-looking/sounding to be pure evil, Ben.
anyway I like him, great character. but i could tell from the very start that he wasn't the henry gale persona that he pretended.
in conclusion, I think he's more the 'creepy guy breathing heavily outside my window' than the 'omniscient dangerous evil genius'
Hodgepodge
01-14-08, 06:37 PM
does no one notice how hard it is to see him as evil when he says, in finale there,
'every single living person on this island will be killed' (not an exact quote, phrasing may be off)
but please, just find that part for me and play it once or twice. something about his nasally voice and gigantic eyes REALLY inspires awe and terror in you, doesn't it. and the nose. and the hair. I'm sorry, but i think you're just a wee bit too funny-looking/sounding to be pure evil, Ben.
anyway I like him, great character. but i could tell from the very start that he wasn't the henry gale persona that he pretended.
in conclusion, I think he's more the 'creepy guy breathing heavily outside my window' than the 'omniscient dangerous evil genius'"Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely!" :nanabobo:
Darkshines
01-19-08, 08:30 AM
I think its a bit out of order to call Ben evil for killing his dad and watching it. I would do the same if I ever met my father. But then again my father was a terrible man, and Ben's father was just a bum.
Completely sincere post.
GoodLilMonkey
01-20-08, 01:45 AM
Total speculation here, but these are my thoughts.
What Ben did to his Dad and the Dharma folks is evil. But I think he was pushed to do it.
Here's why. I'm thinking he and Annie fell in love and she got pregnant. Like all the pregnant ladies, she dies and having the only person he loved die like that is enought to make anyone snap. If the Dharma folks weren't taking the pregnancy/fertility problem as seriously as Ben thought they should, and if Richard manipulated the situation, I can easily see how Ben could do what he did. It would also explain his obsession with the fertility problem and his behavior with Alex, he doesn't want to see another woman he loves die like that.
As you can see, I'll do anything to spin Ben as a good guy.
ParadiseChick
02-11-08, 05:30 AM
I think he is a good person...He's a leader and things have to be done.
His dad wasn't nice.(That's why he killed him)
He was possibly pushed to kill the other Dharma people.
He's Honest(Except for naming himself Henry Gale)
vonnegut
02-12-08, 01:58 AM
He's Honest(Except for naming himself Henry Gale)
....Are you for real?
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
ParadiseChick
02-12-08, 03:32 AM
of course its a joke.:rolleyez:
I can't see! What, what!
Oh, I fell out, or up, or down. Or out of that, what's it called?
Oh, yes, the upside-down helicopter.
This one:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/samymanning/helicopter.jpg
Lostwithlocke
02-13-08, 12:44 PM
Of course he's good. And sexy.
I think he's evil but thinks he's good.
He has big blinders on, believing his motivations are for the greater good but not seeing how much of his actions are coming from his deep emotional difficulties and self-will.
The one thing Ben needs is apreciation, to be special and wanted. Yet his emotional scars are keeping him from forming the relationships that would give him those things.
He falls back into what so many people who have needs do, manipulation, force and even destruction, he shot Locke out of jealousy.
It's vicious cycle, he needs love and respect, does terrible things to get them which cuases people to hate and dispect him.
He's both that's why the character is so interesting, there's a lot going on with that guy and his manbag contents. Last week I laughed because previously he and Sawyer were looking out at the island from the second island all homoerotic and then last ep there's Sawyer beating the crap out of him and trying to kill him. oh those boyz!
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