PDA

View Full Version : The Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes is the "Monster"!?


MonsterEatsPilot
10-15-04, 09:03 PM
First, I apologize for the length of this post but I think perhaps I have uncovered something concerning the Monster and the Nature of the Island. Based on our mention of John Locke (the philosopher) I began to think of his peer, Thomas Hobbes.

I would like to share (hopefully briefly but probably not) some of Hobbes' philosophy which I think might apply to Lost.

The following you are about to read is from Hobbes' famous work LEVIATHAN. As we have seen that the writers of Lost like to use double meanings in their titles (Walkabout for instance?) the meaning is not lost on me. Leviathan through the ages has also represented a beast, a monster. Let us put the 2 together...

First, Hobbes' masterpiece LEVIATHAN set out his ideas with great clarity. He argued that people want to live in peace and security and to attain this they must organise themselves into communities for protection. Since there will always be some in the community who cannot be trusted, people must set up a government with their authority to make and enforce laws necessary to protect the community. It is, Hobbes argues, the rational way for people to behave so moral behaviour is rational. Although Hobbes was himself a Christian, these arguments were seen as many as removing the need for God as the giver of moral code, for Hobbes argues that it follows by reason alone.

Well. We sure do see this already on Lost but now, let us look at a key passage from LEVIATHAN that I believe will give us some insight into the nature of the "monster"...

This is from the First Chapter -- Of Sense (and I do apologize for ye olde English. I have also edited for brevity):

The cause of sense is the external body, or object, which presseth the organ proper to each sense, either immediately, as in the taste and touch; or mediately, as in seeing, hearing, and smelling: which pressure, by the mediation of nerves and other strings and membranes of the body, continued inwards to the brain and heart, causeth there a resistance, or counter-pressure, or endeavour of the heart to deliver itself: which endeavour, because outward, seemeth to be some matter without. And this seeming, or fancy, is that which men call sense; and consisteth, as to the eye, in a light, or colour figured; to the ear, in a sound; to the nostril, in an odour; to the tongue and palate, in a savour; and to the rest of the body, in heat, cold, hardness, softness, and such other qualities as we discern by feeling. All which qualities called sensible are in the object that causeth them but so many several motions of the matter, by which it presseth our organs diversely. Neither in us that are pressed are they anything else but diverse motions (for motion produceth nothing but motion). But their appearance to us is fancy, the same waking that dreaming. And as pressing, rubbing, or striking the eye makes us fancy a light, and pressing the ear produceth a din; so do the bodies also we see, or hear, produce the same by their strong, though unobserved action. For if those colours and sounds were in the bodies or objects that cause them, they could not be severed from them, as by glasses and in echoes by reflection we see they are: where we know the thing we see is in one place; the appearance, in another. And though at some certain distance the real and very object seem invested with the fancy it begets in us; yet still the object is one thing, the image or fancy is another. So that sense in all cases is nothing else but original fancy caused (as I have said) by the pressure that is, by the motion of external things upon our eyes, ears, and other organs, thereunto ordained.

But the philosophy schools, through all the universities of Christendom, grounded upon certain texts of Aristotle, teach another doctrine; and say, for the cause of vision, that the thing seen sendeth forth on every side a visible species, (in English) a visible show, apparition, or aspect, or a being seen; the receiving whereof into the eye is seeing. And for the cause of hearing, that the thing heard sendeth forth an audible species, that is, an audible aspect, or audible being seen; which, entering at the ear, maketh hearing. Nay, for the cause of understanding also, they say the thing understood sendeth forth an intelligible species, that is, an intelligible being seen; which, coming into the understanding, makes us understand. I say not this, as disapproving the use of universities: but because I am to speak hereafter of their office in a Commonwealth, I must let you see on all occasions by the way what things would be amended in them; amongst which the frequency of insignificant speech is one.

Now this is interesting, no? This struck me as a plausible explanation as to the origin of "the monster" or as I like to call it now "the leviathan."

But I read further, and now here is Chapter 2 of LEVIATHAN -- Of Imagination

THAT when a thing lies still, unless somewhat else stir it, it will lie still for ever, is a truth that no man doubts of. But that when a thing is in motion, it will eternally be in motion, unless somewhat else stay it, though the reason be the same (namely, that nothing can change itself), is not so easily assented to. For men measure, not only other men, but all other things, by themselves: and because they find themselves subject after motion to pain and lassitude, think everything else grows weary of motion, and seeks repose of its own accord; little considering whether it be not some other motion wherein that desire of rest they find in themselves consisteth. From hence it is that the schools say, heavy bodies fall downwards out of an appetite to rest, and to conserve their nature in that place which is most proper for them; ascribing appetite, and knowledge of what is good for their conservation (which is more than man has), to things inanimate, absurdly.

When a body is once in motion, it moveth (unless something else hinder it) eternally; and whatsoever hindreth it, cannot in an instant, but in time, and by degrees, quite extinguish it: and as we see in the water, though the wind cease, the waves give not over rolling for a long time after; so also it happeneth in that motion which is made in the internal parts of a man, then, when he sees, dreams, etc. For after the object is removed, or the eye shut, we still retain an image of the thing seen, though more obscure than when we see it. And this is it the Latins call imagination, from the image made in seeing, and apply the same, though improperly, to all the other senses. But the Greeks call it fancy, which signifies appearance, and is as proper to one sense as to another. Imagination, therefore, is nothing but decaying sense; and is found in men and many other living creatures, as well sleeping as waking.

Cool, huh? And then I kept reading...

The decay of sense in men waking is not the decay of the motion made in sense, but an obscuring of it, in such manner as the light of the sun obscureth the light of the stars; which stars do no less exercise their virtue by which they are visible in the day than in the night. But because amongst many strokes which our eyes, ears, and other organs receive from external bodies, the predominant only is sensible; therefore the light of the sun being predominant, we are not affected with the action of the stars. And any object being removed from our eyes, though the impression it made in us remain, yet other objects more present succeeding, and working on us, the imagination of the past is obscured and made weak, as the voice of a man is in the noise of the day. From whence it followeth that the longer the time is, after the sight or sense of any object, the weaker is the imagination. For the continual change of man's body destroys in time the parts which in sense were moved: so that distance of time, and of place, hath one and the same effect in us. For as at a great distance of place that which we look at appears dim, and without distinction of the smaller parts, and as voices grow weak and inarticulate: so also after great distance of time our imagination of the past is weak; and we lose, for example, of cities we have seen, many particular streets; and of actions, many particular circumstances. This decaying sense, when we would express the thing itself (I mean fancy itself), we call imagination, as I said before. But when we would express the decay, and signify that the sense is fading, old, and past, it is called memory. So that imagination and memory are but one thing, which for diverse considerations hath diverse names.

Wow! Well, I'm not sure about you but this reveals alot of information to me (plus it is good stuff to know anyway, never know when you'll need this stuff).

I am indeed sorry for posting in such length but this did come across as too much of a coincidence to ignore.

Interested to know what all of you read from this.

Here endeth the lesson.

Cheers!

-Purrkins

Abraxas
10-15-04, 10:58 PM
I don't get too much of that. I try later. Olde speak is quite cool in games like Ultima, but I can't imagine reading a whole book written that way. *shudder*

JacksGirlfriend
10-15-04, 10:58 PM
Purrkins - I might agree with you if I hadn't fallen asleep. I have the attention span of a gnat. Could you possibly give me the Cliff Notes? I remember reading Hobbes in philosophy but it's been "thousands and thousands of years" and I don't remember it (although I vaguely remember liking his thoughts at the time).

Sorry - but I just can't comprehend it after working all day so I couple paragraphs would be great - in your own words if possible. I'm sure there's others out there just like me that might appreciate it. If you don't want to, that's fine too. Thanks.

JacksGirl

MonsterEatsPilot
10-15-04, 11:15 PM
Since you have asketh I have doneth.

Sorry, methinks Olde English has muddle my brain…&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp

First...

le•vi•a•than
1.Something unusually large of its kind, especially a ship.
2.A very large animal, especially a whale.
3.A monstrous sea creature mentioned in the Bible.

Hobbes also wrote a book called Behemoth incidentally, which I think might be more on target…

be•he•moth

1.Something enormous in size or power.
2.often Behemoth A huge animal, possibly the hippopotamus, described in the Bible

Hope this sheds some light on this. A (not so brief) translation of LEVIATHAN's first 3 Chapters...

&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp This part of the Leviathan concern the mechanics of the human mind, covering the topics of sense, imagination, and the train of thought. Hobbes argues that our knowledge of the world originates from "external bodies" pressing against our sensory apparatus. Envisioning the universe as a plenum constituted solely of matter, Hobbes depicts objects continually bumping against each other and describes the passage of motion from one material body to the next. This elementary motion of the universe eventually transfers to the surface of the human body, where nerves and membranes of the eyes, nose, ears, tongue, and skin are physically moved, in turn relaying their acquired motions on to the brain. "Sense," then, is the action of external bodies colliding with our sensitive organs.

Matter cannot move itself, Hobbes declares (in challenge to the philosophy of vitalism, which maintained that matter was self-motivated). Consequently, "when a thing is in motion, it will eternally be in motion" unless acted upon by another body. Hobbes deduces that this continuance of motion is responsible for the transformation of sense into thoughts or "imagination," for when an external body presses against the human sense apparatus and sets off a series of new motions, these motions will perpetuate until they meet a hindrance. The duration of sensory motion after the fact is called "decaying sense," which becomes Hobbes's definition of imagination. To illustrate, Hobbes suggests that the persistence of a vision after the eyes have been closed indicates that the ocular sensory apparatus is still in motion; this motion is no longer immediate sensation, but imagination. Such imagination, over time, is the same as "memory." Memory of things sensed from the outside world is defined as "experience," while sensation of internal movements of the human body is called a "dream" when one is asleep, or a "vision" or "apparition" when one is awake.

"Understanding" is a particular form of imagination, defined as the idea produced by the physical sensation of words or visible signs. A complex variety of understanding is the "train of thoughts" or "mental discourse," in which the succession of one imagination upon another, one internal sensation provoking the next one, initiates the process of thinking. There are two possible trains of thoughts: the "unguided" train, in which mental discourse wanders in no particular direction, as in dreams; and the "regulated" train, in which the thinker directs mental discourse in a specific direction. By tracing the transfer of motion from external matter to the human body, Hobbes has deduced a mechanism of the human mind--namely, the passage from sense to thought to train of thoughts--in which sensory experience of the world is funneled into regulated and directed thinking. Building upon this foundation, Hobbes next considers the logical developments of directed thought: language, reason, and science.

Because our experience of the world is mediated by our sensation of it, reality, or objective nature, does not necessarily provide universally satisfying definitions by itself. Hobbes writes, "For though the nature of that we conceive, be the same; yet the diversity of our reception of it, in respect of different constitutions of body, and prejudices of opinion, gives everything a tincture of our different passions. And therefore in reasoning, a man must take heed of words; which besides the signification of what we imagine their nature, have a signification also of the nature, disposition, and interest of the speaker."
Hobbes suggests that the observation of nature and the sensation of the material world is always affected by the individual character of the observer, and therefore experience of natural phenomena and the perception of reality do not constitute an adequate basis upon which to ground philosophically true conclusions to a train of thought.

As long as there persist differences in experience, which in turn correspond to differences in meaning, true certainty cannot be achieved. We cannot simply turn to nature as a basis of truth, for objective nature--nature in itself--is inaccessible to us, always filtered through a screen of subjectivity. Thus, Hobbes decides, there must be some governing body, unanimously recognized, appointed to settle the definitions of words and first principles: "But no one mans Reason, nor the Reason of any one number of men, makes the certaintie; no more than an account is therefore well cast up, because a great many men have unanimously approved it. And therefore, as when there is a controversy in an account, the parties must by their own accord, set up for right Reason, the Reason of some Arbitrator, or Judge, to whose sentence they will both stand, or their controversy must either come to blows, or be undecided, for want of a right Reason constituted by Nature; and so it is also in all debates of what kind soever."

Hobbes points out that there is no "right Reason constituted by Nature," again noting the ineffectiveness of employing nature as the foundation of knowledge. He also points out that the judge who will settle definitions--the definitions upon which everyone agrees to agree--is appointed by the participants "by their own accord." It is this judge (eventually revealed as "the sovereign" in Chapter 18) who then becomes the needed foundation of all knowledge.

And this is just the first 3 chapters, another dozen to go... but I will end here (yes, you're welcome) but I will continue to read over the weekend and will expand on this should there be more pertinent information

Cheers!

-Purrkins

JacksGirlfriend
10-15-04, 11:25 PM
Okay - our senses pick up stimuli. We decide what this stimulation means based on our own experience and we form them into thoughts and ideas. Because each person has had different experiences, each interpretation is different and therefore occasionally suspect. Because of this there is no universal truth to be deduced from nature. It is for this reason we choose people to decide what is the most "common" intention of nature and what thoughts might be most acceptable. These are our judges, chosen by us.

In the case of our island it is inevitable that someone be chosen to lead and others will be chosen as judges.

Did I get this right? If not, please correct me.

JacksGirl

MonsterEatsPilot
10-15-04, 11:37 PM
You know, if I had a prize to give away you would have won it.

Hit the nail right on the head as you usually do. Bravo!

But do you see how this applies to the island and the Leviathan? -- Is it possible we will never see what it is because it is different to each and every one of us based on our previous experiences and memories.

Thus its "invisibility"...

Abraxas
10-15-04, 11:37 PM
If you got it right JG, where's the part about the monster?

From what I gain here, the monster is different to anyone. But there are some certain qualities that none of them can deny, I'd say.

JacksGirlfriend
10-16-04, 12:07 AM
Brax: I would say in Hobbes' philosophy, the monster will be based on the perceptions of the viewer. It doesn't sound like "fear manifestation". It sounds like interpretation.

I don't agree with this in terms of coming to grip with our monster. I was trying to interpret what Hobbes might be saying. I don't discount his philosophy and it probably has some clear applications but my view is he's thinking in more intangible and subjective terms.

For example: I see a man on top of a woman. If I'm a rape victim, I might see it as a threatening thing. If I'm in a happy loving relationship and have had no violence in my life, I probably see it as a good thing. The perception of what I'm seeing is based on who I am and my experiences in life.

However... I don't think Hobbes' philosphy will apply here (though of course I could be wrong). I think the "monster" is a real tangible thing that will not change based on "perception". A lion is a lion. An elephant is an elephant. A whale is a whale. They don't change based on "perception." They just are. I think our "monster" is probably a known thing, but it's possible the monster is unrecognizable to our survivors because they either don't know what to call it or it's something they find too unbelievable to believe. Chances are when and if we see it, we'll recognize it immediately.

JacksGirl

Abraxas
10-16-04, 12:44 AM
Hobbes' philosophy could apply to this situation. The "monster" might not be a thread to anyone who leaves it - and it's territory - alone. That mean, it's not as dangerous-looking to some as it might to most others.

Or maybe it's a machine and is not at all hunting, but rather the "prey" is simply getting in it's way of destruction.

Just thought one wierd thing. What if the plane crash has left some sort of tracks in time? The fuselage crashed through the trees, that much we agreed on, I think.
Well, perhaps due to some reason that fuselage is crashing everyday - JG, your concept of renewal and time loops, remember? - the same path and who gets in the way is killed for real. But there is not actually a solid object, but just an image of this object.

One problem with that would be that the "copy of the fuselage" doesn't seem to crash all the way to the beach, but stops midway and "vanishes", thus not destroying everything on the beach.
It's a big hole in this already too-crazy theory. Why wasn't Locke killed? Did it stop the crashing right there?
Maybe the tracks in time get shorter with every day?
Why does it occur on day and on night?

Ohoh, it doesn't even hold a pile of melons let alone water...

JacksGirlfriend
10-16-04, 12:58 AM
I think Hobbes' theories will come into play on the island - but mostly on how the people perceive and react to each other. You could give me a look that you think is amusing and I might perceive it as nasty based on what we were talking about and how I thought you were interpreting what I said. In this case, Hobbes is right about the need for judges because we might get into an argument over a "look."

As far as the monster goes, I think it's real although what it is at this point is anyone's guess.

I'm still holding onto a mixture of the Bermuda Triangle, Hotel California, Time Loops theory. The Philadelphia Experiment even fits nicely into my theory, as do mammoths, polar bears, French women and Vikings. Gotta have the Vikings.

It's my own little blend of science and reality with a touch of pseudo-science and a smidgeon of "magic." Not magic in the sense of "things not real" - magic in the sense of making the seemingly impossible, possible. Vague enough for you? I like to leave myself open for future options.

The monster has one face. A real face. What they're seeing now is shifting and changing because they're shocked, confused and lost. But with acceptance will come understanding and eventually they'll all see it for what it is and I'm betting they all see the same thing.

JacksGirl

Abraxas
10-16-04, 01:21 AM
Yeah see, but this thread is about the monster and not the people on the island.
However, this could fit in the way that the monster isn't killing intentionally or at least not unprovoked.

JacksGirlfriend
10-16-04, 01:35 AM
True, the thread is about Hobbes' Leviathan and the possibility that the survivors' perceptions are changing the face/shape of the monster. But I don't see it that way. Although I find his philosophy valid for other arguments, I don't find it fits here to reflect my view. I just don't think it explains the existence and/or identity of the monster and the fact that a great many of the people posting here seem to think "the monster" is different for each of the survivors doesn't mean it is (or isn't). I think the monster is or will be the same to each survivor that encounters it - not a manifestation of their fears, their thoughts or their perceptions. I think it's a real honest-to-goodness "thing".

It is however possible that the monster is responding to the Hobbes' theory and its actions are determined by what it perceives as a threat. See I've turned it around. Did you like that?

Maybe we should get Purrkins involved in this... it was his/her theory to start with. I don't happen to agree it pertains to the monster, but hey there's lots of people that don't agree with my theories either. That's what makes it fun.

JacksGirl

Abraxas
10-16-04, 02:04 AM
Yes, it's about the actions, not the appearance.
Different perception. Maybe noone of the survivors has that kind of perception. But another interpretation exists and would be revealed later on.

Ok, that's how pretty much all mystery shows work. :\

mixx31
10-21-04, 11:10 PM
GREAT!

I like this idea on top of the time/space, bermuda triangle disapperence angle.

They've been tranported to this "place" where there emotions become a manifestated into the current "reality" for them. Think about when we've heard the monster...

The 1st night. My first night on the island I would wonder what's out there.
Looking for the cockpit. They were already afraid "it" would come back.
It didn't come out when they went on the scouting mission, because they were preoccuoied.

I just can't explain why it came out in "walkabout":rolleyes

MonsterEatsPilot
10-21-04, 11:19 PM
I am still working on this theory and perhaps I posted this a bit too early but I do think it leads to something.

Now that I have access to my computer again (yeah) I will work on this over the week and try to form my thoughts into something coherent.

Please post your ideas as well.

I am also intrigued as I feel the "monster" appears to each person differently --

Locke (I am under the impression) saw "Helen" and while following Helen found the dead boar.

Jack, his "father" and while following his father found water.

Does this imply a benevolence? I do not know.

As for the "monster" appearing invisible to the group -- perhaps it is not. Perhaps it is shifting between the emotions of everyone who can see it at that time and simply appears invisible.

This has to do with Hobbes' theory of imagination and perception. I need to mull over this more but once I come up with something more coherent I will share.

I could also be way off on this one. Time will tell.

Cheers

-P