Should Bernard be punished?

[No Button No More]

Should Bernard be punished for spilling his guts to the Others? Sayid had already stated he would be willing to die if it assured rescue and then Bernard goes all chicken <snip>. Sure things just happened to turn out OK but Jin and Sayid must be pissed at him.

[MrSocko]

I don't think so. I doubt Jin would be too angry considering Bernard did it to save his life. It may have been a moment of weakness, but I think a whole lot of people would have done the same thing :)

[The Life of Riley]

Nope. It was a risky thing to do, but none of the Losties got killed, so it all worked out.

[vonnegut]

What's up with all of the punishment lately?


It's not my birthday until November.

[No Button No More]

I doubt Jin would be too angry considering Bernard did it to save his life.

But Jin's words were "No! No Talk!". Of course Jin will be happy with the results but who would ever trust Bernard in a life or death situation again?

[MrSocko]

I probably would. He nailed the dynamite like the dentist he is :)

[boonian androphile]

This situation was probably new for Bernard who is more used to aiming with a dentist's drill. I would cut him some slack. What the plan really needed was someone hiding in the jungle to back them up. But then of course no later suspense and wild van ride.

[Homer Noodleman]

who would ever trust Bernard in a life or death situation again?

The same dopes who trusted him in the first place.

[FrodoFraggins]

I don't think they're going to have time to worry about punishing bernard. I think Desmond will reach the beachers in time to warn them about the boat. At that point they'll be in busy WTF mode.

[qwicmbl]

Should Bernard be punished for spilling his guts to the Others? Sayid had already stated he would be willing to die if it assured rescue and then Bernard goes all chicken <snip>. Sure things just happened to turn out OK but Jin and Sayid must be pissed at him.


No way! Rose said it perfectly. He, "is a dentist, not Rambo." He was scared and was put in a position that he couldn't handle. He was scared as hell and didn't want to see his friends die. Why would you be punished for trying to save a life

[interplanetjanet]

What the plan really needed was someone hiding in the jungle to back them up. But then of course no later suspense and wild van ride.

The losties don't do contingency plans; it's one reason Ben keeps beating them.

They won. And they must continue to live together, so what point punishment? If the situation occurs again, Bernard and everyone else can weigh what to do.

Also, he was weighing Jin's certain death against possible threat to the rest of the group. "Life and death" no matter what he chose.

[Maldito Ninja]

Since when Jin knows so much English?

He's understanding everything that SOAB.

:P

[No Button No More]

Why would you be punished for trying to save a life

His saving the life of Jin could have well cost the lives of the other 40 people that Jack was leading to the tower. And it certainly was within reason to expect Jin, Sayid and Bernard to be killed after the Others found out what they wanted.

[RicoSlim]

Bernard should have his arm chopped off for punishment

[No Button No More]

Bernard should have his arm chopped off for punishment

Finally a sensible idea. Then he can go back to his dentistry practice.

[RicoSlim]

yeah dentists are doctors who fail out of medical school, they only need one arm anyway

[Bobb]

One of the great missed opportunities of LOST has been a study of crime and punishment. With no prisons and no societal laws, how do you deal with people who commit "crimes" against society?

Was Sawyer supposed to tie up Mr. Friendly and have someone guard him night and day, or release him and take the chance he'd come back and avenge his friends?

Death, torture, restitution, and exile are basically all that's practical. A limited form of exile, ostracizing someone (as happened to Charlie for a while) is about the only other solution.

The trouble is, the Losties don't even have a formal society. There's a general consensus that Jack's the "leader", but when push comes to shove many of the Losties act however they please.

What is Bernard's crime? Is he a "traitor" for talking? That usually brings a harsh punishment from society, like "hard time" imprisonment or even death. Is somebody going to kill Rose's old man because he was weak? He tried running first, but got clotheslined. If he were a soldier, he might face a court martial, but I don't know if that's a given under the circumstances. Because the Losties have no law, Bernard will apologize, and they probably won't hand him a gun the next time there's trouble. Are we a society that's worse for its laws?

[RoseArienh]

One of the great missed opportunities of LOST has been a study of crime and punishment. With no prisons and no societal laws, how do you deal with people who commit "crimes" against society?

Was Sawyer supposed to tie up Mr. Friendly and have someone guard him night and day, or release him and take the chance he'd come back and avenge his friends?

Death, torture, restitution, and exile are basically all that's practical. A limited form of exile, ostracizing someone (as happened to Charlie for a while) is about the only other solution.

The trouble is, the Losties don't even have a formal society. There's a general consensus that Jack's the "leader", but when push comes to shove many of the Losties act however they please.

What is Bernard's crime? Is he a "traitor" for talking? That usually brings a harsh punishment from society, like "hard time" imprisonment or even death. Is somebody going to kill Rose's old man because he was weak? He tried running first, but got clotheslined. If he were a soldier, he might face a court martial, but I don't know if that's a given under the circumstances. Because the Losties have no law, Bernard will apologize, and they probably won't hand him a gun the next time there's trouble. Are we a society that's worse for its laws?
Very nicely said.

[lrob]

Dirty Dentist.

[dreck1177]

I could see Sayid being quite upset for it, since he stated he'd give his life. But I guess at the same time Bernard's own life wasnt at stake, but Jin's. I bet Bernard wouldn't have spilled if they were going to kill him, he just couldnt see someone else get killed. Jin has no right to be mad at Bernard for saving his life, plus lets remember that Jin ****** up in the first place, and it was his fault they were in this situation! C'mon Jin!

[RoseArienh]

Jin has no right to be mad at Bernard for saving his life, plus lets remember that Jin ****** up in the first place, and it was his fault they were in this situation! C'mon Jin!
I'm seriously not being argumentative here, just memory challenged. Why is it Jin's fault?

[FrodoFraggins]

I'm seriously not being argumentative here, just memory challenged. Why is it Jin's fault?

probably for missing his dynamite target.

[Enoch Root]

Well, I'm no expert, but wasn't Jin using a pistol? Apparently they are pretty inaccurate at long ranges. But Sayid or Bernard might have been able to take another shot, maybe.

[FrodoFraggins]

Well, I'm no expert, but wasn't Jin using a pistol? Apparently they are pretty inaccurate at long ranges. But Sayid or Bernard might have been able to take another shot, maybe.

Yeah he was using a pistol and he did get 2 shots off. maybe sayid should have been the one with the pistol since it is the hardest to be accurate with at range.

[twilightsun]

Yeah, poor Jin ws stuck with the pistol, while the other two had rifles.

I did want to smack Bernard around and tell him that he was risking his own wife's life, not to mention everyone else's, to save Jin.

[Bernard]

ME?? Punish MOI??? for talking?? hey, I did what had to be done in the moment.

I apologise to no one for doing what I KNEW in my heart to be the right thing to do!!

Besides, who are you to tell me?? You are only the audience, I am a character, 'I outrank you!'

[Crandyman]

The current situation at hand is what should dictate behavior, not hardend fast rules. Yes, they made a general agreement that they wouldn't talk and thus, not compromise the other Losties. However, Jin's failure to blow up the third target changed the scenario. As in similar hostage negotiations, your level of force or in this case, cooperation, should only increase with those of the person making the threats and should always be one step above the person making the demands.

Bernard, whether knowingly or subconsiously, made the correct decision. He traded imminent death for the possibility of future deaths. It's all about the preservation of life in the current situation. However, this is also dependnt on the idea that the preventing the imminent death will buy some time to also prevent the future deaths. Obviously it would not be worth it to release information which could result in an exponential amount of future deaths to save one life. But, if there is a chance to save one life for certain right now while simulaneously only slightly increasing the chances of future deaths, then I say take that chance. The decision made was for the crisis at hand, the other problems should be addressed when they arise.

As for punishment, I don't understand how or why anyone would ever be punished for those actions. I am not familiar with any cases involving a military court martial for information given by a captured soldier. The thing is, every case must be judged on its own because each situation is vastly different. I don't know how you can punish someone for dealing with the threat of certain death the best way they know how. Perhaps it's a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. As long as the the rest of the Losties don't get killed, it looks like it was the right call.

[Bobb]

I am not familiar with any cases involving a military court martial for information given by a captured soldier.

Following the Korean War, there were 14 PoWs court martialed for "collaborating with the enemy". Pretty much every PoW who survived the Korean War was guilty of the same. They were still under the WWII rules not to give any information except name, rank, and serial number, and that didn't go over well. The Chinese captured 7,000 men and killed 3,000 PoWs. You talked, or you were killed. Or your buddies were killed. Or you and your buddies were tortured.

Collaborating, as it's called, has caused men to face court martial, but generally it was overlooked because it was so common.

Since the threat wasn't to Bernard himself, and the "enemy" hadn't done anything to prove that they were willing to carry out their threat, Bernard's "case" would probably be judged rather harshly (if he were a soldier). He's not. If this happened in the U.S., most people would just figure he was doing the most reasonable thing.

[No Button No More]

Dirty Dentist.

Are you an anti-dentite?

[No Button No More]

It would be one thing for Bernard to say "Stop I'll tell you what you want" to buy time, maybe lie to the Others. But Bernard spilled his guts telling them names and places. At the very least he could have given an erroneous destination or said "I have no idea how we knew your were coming tonight".

[qwicmbl]

Bernard should have his arm chopped off for punishment

lol

[Frecklestoo]

Think about the pathetic communication our losties have with each other. The whole Bernard situation will probably never be mentioned to anyone else. Nobody tells anybody else anything on this show.:rolleyez:

Are you an anti-dentite?Nice Seinfeld reference!:)

[gertie]

nice talk, crandyman.

But, Bernard DID do a very bad thing. He told on everyone ("they're going to the tower").

And wasn't he a volunteer? He's shown himself to be a traitor chicken-s**t.

I have nothing but disdain for this person now. Disdain.

[KatesBoyfriend]

Are you an anti-dentite?

He's a rabid anti-dentite! Oh, it starts with a few jokes and some slurs. "Hey, you dirty dentist" Next thing you know he's saying they should have their own schools.

[vonnegut]

Bernard should have his arm chopped off for punishment

:rotfl:

[Crandyman]

nice talk, crandyman.

But, Bernard DID do a very bad thing. He told on everyone ("they're going to the tower").

And wasn't he a volunteer? He's shown himself to be a traitor chicken-s**t.

I have nothing but disdain for this person now. Disdain.

No harm, No foul.

Since the threat wasn't to Bernard himself, and the "enemy" hadn't done anything to prove that they were willing to carry out their threat, Bernard's "case" would probably be judged rather harshly (if he were a soldier). He's not. If this happened in the U.S., most people would just figure he was doing the most reasonable thing.

Thank you for the military history lesson, Bobb. I am now more curious as to the legal ramifications these soliders faced during those times and will have to read more on that subject later on. :Cheers:

You mention something that I thought of but failed to mention as it would have been detrimental to defense of Bernard :D . That point being, the enemy had not acted upon their threat. The general rule of thumb is that you don't escalate a situation until it's absolutely necessary. Why go in with blazing guns if the same feat can be accomplished with simple discussion? For example, If a guy comes into a store with a gun and demands money, the safest bet is to comply with his demands. If unarmed, there is no point in attempting an aprehension at that moment for the repurcussions could be deadly. However, if the same gunman shoots a bystander right away, a higher level of action would be necessary. Risk is the key point here.

With Bernard, did he screw up? Of course he did but in this case it seemed to have worked out. It's tough to fault a man for doing what he believes is the right thing. I mean, hindsight is 20/20 in these situations. He made a judgement call. He had to weigh between whether or not Ryan was going to execute Jin and giving up allied information. Bernard, after realizing they had just killed seven of the Others, felt like Ryan would most definetely pull the trigger.

It's easy to play armchair quarterback here but until you're in that situation you can't mock someones decision. His choice was noble, even if it was flawed.

[The Life of Riley]

I don't understand why he would be punished. If he woulnd't have talked at least one of them would have died. However, he talked, and all of them survived. Was it a risky thing to do? Absolutely. But it obviously paid off in the end. I think they have a lot more concerns than punishing Bernard for a stupid decision that actually ended up working in their favor.

[vonnegut]

I just am laughing trying to figure out what someone would do to "punish" him.

[interplanetjanet]

It's easy to play armchair quarterback here but until you're in that situation you can't mock someones decision. His choice was noble, even if it was flawed.

Thank you for that. For most of us, no one has ever held our friends at gunpoint while other friends tried to find a radio tower, so I don't think we can make any grand claims about what we would do in that situation.

[The Life of Riley]

Thank you for that. For most of us, no one has ever held our friends at gunpoint while other friends tried to find a radio tower, so I don't think we can make any grand claims about what we would do in that situation.

Speak for yourself! :p

Seriously though, if some of the Losties had been killed at the radio tower because Bernard talked, I could understand some backlash. But that didn't happen.

[vonnegut]

Oh, it doesn't have to happen for me to know what I would do.

I certainly wouldn't sit there and watch my friend's brains get blown out. I would talk.

[Crandyman]

I just am laughing trying to figure out what someone would do to "punish" him.

Making 'em spend an entire week with Jack without getting more than 10 ft away from him.

[vonnegut]

That's not funny.

[gertie]

The pitiful thing that will happen: Rose has no respect for him.

[No Button No More]

Oh, it doesn't have to happen for me to know what I would do.

I certainly wouldn't sit there and watch my friend's brains get blown out. I would talk.

OK, you're Bernard. I understand that you don't want to see Jin get shot. So you say "I'll talk" and maybe you'll give up Juliet because you were suspicious of her anyways. But why in the world would you truthfully tell them were your wife went? You believe that she may be just minutes away from rescue and you're going to send the bad guys right to her?

[sablegirl]

Ben told his men to Kill Jin, because he KNEW Bernard would choose to save him. Threatening to kill Bernard, and Sawyer and Jin would've let him die.

Plus, Bernard is a regular guy....no deaths prior to the island. (that we know of) He's not a trained soldier. He hasn't faced the life or death instances that Sawyer or Sayied has faced. He reminds me of my dad, or a deacon from church. Give him a break.

[gertie]

WHAT?

Bernie vonunteered. He wanted to stay.

His shots were dead on. He has more than enough experience to explain his presence in Sayid's troup.

Yeah. Now I'm questioning why Sayid would allow a talker on his team

[Crandyman]

Yeah. Now I'm questioning why Sayid would allow a talker on his team


Because if everything went to plan it wouldn't have mattered. I don't even think Sayid thought that capture was an option. Either kill them or they would be killed in trying to do so. They gambled and lost but ultimatley won (thanks to Hurley).

[sablegirl]

He might be a good shot...He's doing his best, but He hasn't been trained to be tortured, or watch people being tortured. They didn't have time to train him for that

[gertie]

IT DOES TOO MATTER!

Sayid is supposed to KNOW people. This shows he doesn't know crap.

[vonnegut]

Bernard isn't Rambo. He's a dentist.

[Crandyman]

IT DOES TOO MATTER!

Sayid is supposed to KNOW people. This shows he doesn't know crap.

As I said before, Sayid said he was an "excellent shot" and he was correct. What, did you want a formal application process for the open, "Sniper Position"? I guess he shoulda just picked a wandering red shirt who was a bad shot. That way, WHEN said red shirt missed the shot, they wouldn't have to worry about him telling Ryan and Tom anything since we all know, the red shirts know nothing.

Sayid picked the best shooters out of the limited pool. After all, I didn't see anyone else volunteer.

[zetaprime]

I don't think they're going to have time to worry about punishing bernard. I think Desmond will reach the beachers in time to warn them about the boat. At that point they'll be in busy WTF mode.
They wouldn't have to get to the beach to warn them. The beachies have a walkie they can contact them on.

[gertie]

teethe

[gertie]

As I said before, Sayid said he was an "excellent shot" and he was correct. What, did you want a formal application process for the open, "Sniper Position"? I guess he shoulda just picked a wandering red shirt who was a bad shot. That way, WHEN said red shirt missed the shot, they wouldn't have to worry about him telling Ryan and Tom anything since we all know, the red shirts know nothing.

Sayid picked the best shooters out of the limited pool. After all, I didn't see anyone else volunteer.

I know. Bernard was an excellent shooter. I'd choose him also.

But, I do not want a buddy that would tell where the whole team is. You are missing my point. Bernard is a snitch....

Why would he show off his skill, then blab? He is not a lostie

[gertie]

AND
Sayid is a people-reader? he misread

[sculpey]

Bernard should be forced to have a root canal without anesthesia.

[Crandyman]

I know. Bernard was an excellent shooter. I'd choose him also.

But, I do not want a buddy that would tell where the whole team is. You are missing my point. Bernard is a snitch....

Why would he show off his skill, then blab? He is not a lostie

He's not a snitch. That term is reserved for people who rat out other people to save their own hide. He gave up information which may or may not be detrimental in order to prevent an immediate execution of someone else.

Once again, I don't think anyone planned on them getting interrogated.

[gertie]

Crandyman?

He gave everyone away.

[Crandyman]

Crandyman?

He gave everyone away.

So what.

He told them where they were headed. At least they would have a fighting chance to resist, unlike Jin. He took a chance. He hoped that by giving away information now that it would protect Jin and NOT necessarily be harmful to the Losties. CYA (cover your ass) now and hope for the best later.

[gertie]

Okay. I'm the pretend Sayid. I choose you on my team.

Good grief, that was a bad choice. You told. talked. You almost hurt the rest of my people.

And, because of what you said, you may have killed them.

Feel better now? Cause you didn't kill?

[rknorton91]

The only person at fault there was Sayid. He chose the team and wrongly chose a person who could shoot but was not up to the task of being a soldier. Secondly Sayid opted to give someone else the pistol when he should have kept that as his responsiblity. In the end Sayid's team did the best they could do given the tools and the training they had.

[MrSocko]

So what.

He told them where they were headed. At least they would have a fighting chance to resist, unlike Jin. He took a chance. He hoped that by giving away information now that it would protect Jin and NOT necessarily be harmful to the Losties. CYA (cover your ass) now and hope for the best later.

Completely agree. I can't believe people are jumping on Bernard for this. First of all, I think if Jin HAD been executed, people wouldn't be happy because hes a great character, and it would have been tough to see him go. But now? Bernard is a snitch? How so?

"Snitch" is way too negative a word to use here. Bernard offered to help Sayid, risking his own life in the process, and dealt the Others information that could have compromised the hikers in order to save a life that definitely would have been taken. I hope he would do the same thing again,and I hope other people would too

[No Button No More]

"Snitch" is way too negative a word to use here. Bernard offered to help Sayid, risking his own life in the process, and dealt the Others information that could have compromised the hikers in order to save a life that definitely would have been taken. I hope he would do the same thing again,and I hope other people would too

You're right, snitch is the wrong word. I'm thinking more like yellow-bellied, unmanly, chicken <snip>, cowardly, dim wit that can't be trusted and is willing to put 40 peoples lives in danger to save his own.

[Crandyman]

You're right, snitch is the wrong word. I'm thinking more like yellow-bellied, unmanly, chicken <snip>, cowardly, dim wit that can't be trusted and is willing to put 40 peoples lives in danger to save his own.

Last time I checked, HE wasn't the one about to be executed.

(Fixed quote. - Brian)

[marshall2u]

Last time I checked, HE wasn't the one about to be executed.

He knew he would have been next. He was 100% WRONG. Him giving up the rest of the group was cowardly. When he accepted this job, he knew he and the other two were buffers. He knew this mission was not just to try and kill the attackers, but also to give the losties time to get a signal out, and ultimately be saved. Just because the overall plan seems to have worked out, he failed miserably. He betrayed the group as a whole.

ETA: I don't think he should be punished, but he DID fail his mission. He did what he could, but it just wasn't good enough. But, then again, he is just a dentist, not a soldier.

[sals]

Fill his cavities with amalgam.



Sals

[Frecklestoo]

I can see both sides of the issue. I was surprised when he gave up the location of his WIFE and all the other losties. He didn't have to give Tom and friends there EXACT location. However, I can also understand when you're in a stressful situation in which you think someone is going to be killed, you don't really have a chance to think, you just react. It's almost a survival thing. I certainly don't think he should be punished....his intentions weren't bad.

[interplanetjanet]

Sayid is supposed to be good at detecting a liar. That didn't come up in this case.

I think if you asked Bernard beforehand, he would have said he wouldn't talk. It wasn't something they were thinking of--contingency planning not being a strong suit of any lostie--and in the heat of fear he talked. I wish he'd thought to send them the wrong way, but as with Charlie's death, we'd all plan these things better...especially after multiple viewings and several days to toss ideas back and forth.

If it comes up again, Sayid may not choose him. Or he might ask to be chosen, having learnt from experience. But I think the situation is about to change.

[Khan]

If they start handing out punishments for crimes and evils commited by the Losties, Bernard would be far the first one in order of seriousness, in fact he'd probably one of the few left with little or no chastisment.

[traveling wilbury]

should he be punished?

in the end, i say no. imagine how many other scared people would have done the same thing. he succumbed to a very understandable fear. rose reminding him he's a dentist and not rambo is important, to me.

i was upset about it, but i realize that jin and sayid were relaxing at the beach after they were rescued, and they seemed cool with ol' bernard.

[Jessicaswanlake]

Bernard won't be punished- the whole thing will be forgotten by the time the two groups are reunited, as the big-bads will be arriving soon and starting all kinds of mayham.

Even if they thought to do it- what would be the point? He obviously panicked in an attempt to save Jin- why else give away the location of the people he is trying to protect? Bernard, from the begining, has been meant to represent "everyman"- he reacted like most people would in such a situation, not stratigically, but with his heart. I was shocked when Bernard spilled, but it nowhere compares to all of the danger that Jack has exposed all of them to through his "need to know" mentality and plans that always go horribly wrong.

I think the best plan would be for Sayid just mention to Rose what happened- she'll sort Bernard out thoroughly.

[traveling wilbury]

I think the best plan would be for Sayid just mention to Rose what happened- she'll sort Bernard out thoroughly.

truth. :lol:

[No Button No More]

I think the best plan would be for Sayid just mention to Rose what happened- she'll sort Bernard out thoroughly.

Sayid: "Hey Rose you don't have to worry about your hubby being a Rambo. He was spilling his guts to the Others while he was soiling himself"

[gertie]

Punishment isn't going to happen. But his shame and shunning is inevitable.

The guy is pathetic.

[stratman]

I was shocked when Bernard spilled, but it nowhere compares to all of the danger that Jack has exposed all of them to through his "need to know" mentality and plans that always go horribly wrong.

From what I recall, every action taken by Jack on the island has been decided upon the premise of what will be best for the individual and the group. Maybe there was a stray decision could have been better here or there as viewed in hindsight. But, his intent has not been questionable, except for the fake tension created by TPTB that made Jack seem like a Hostile sympathizer. We know that's not true now.

Bernard, while behaving in an understandable manner while being on the wrong end of a gun, displayed selfish survival behaviour. Not that I can condemn him for saving his own life, and there are many here that would act similar. But he did place the lives of all the other Losties including his wife in peril by giving up the goods to the Hostiles.

There is little comparison between Jack and Bernard concerning this aspect.

[eckert]

rose is gonna slap him.

[3519273540]

of course not, who can blame him? his life was at stake. once the losties start dealing out punishments for "disloyalty" they will be as bad as the others.

[CENSORED]

Are you kidding me. Punish Jin...he missed.

Bernard has enough punisment being married to Rose.

And anyways, if it wasn't for Bernard, then we never would of had the pleasure of watching Jack beating the crap out of Ben....

Ahh, still my favorite moment of the episode.

[CENSORED]

What's up with all of the punishment lately?


It's not my birthday until November.

Pfft...

Damn Irish Scorpios.

[rknorton91]

From what I recall, every action taken by Jack on the island has been decided upon the premise of what will be best for the individual and the group. Maybe there was a stray decision could have been better here or there as viewed in hindsight. But, his intent has not been questionable, except for the fake tension created by TPTB that made Jack seem like a Hostile sympathizer. We know that's not true now.

Bernard, while behaving in an understandable manner while being on the wrong end of a gun, displayed selfish survival behaviour. Not that I can condemn him for saving his own life, and there are many here that would act similar. But he did place the lives of all the other Losties including his wife in peril by giving up the goods to the Hostiles.

There is little comparison between Jack and Bernard concerning this aspect.

I don't think selfish is the right word to describe Benards actions. Cowardly yes but selfish no. You see he was to weak to be able to sit there and watch his friend Jin die (10-1 if the gun had been on him he probably would have accepted his fate because he does not have to watch a friend get gunned down in cold blood)

As I stated previously in this thread Benard is not really to fault here Sayid is. Sayid was the leader and planner of this mission all failers fall on him. Being in command is a heck of responsability.

[LostinIreland]

Well the next time any of you calling Bernard a coward are tied up, beaten and have a gun put to your head, please come tell us how brave you were. Oh, yeah, forget it. You'd be dead. :rolleyez:

yes, Bernie was scared. Who wouldn't be soiling the pants. He isn't a bad a** like Sayid and Jin. But giving the info kept them alive long enough for Sayid to pull that cool neck-breaking move. Did anyone notice the look on Sawyers face in that scene? Priceless. Sayid is one cool mutha.

[stratman]

I never said Bernard was a coward. And I think many on this forum would do the same if in Bernard's shoes.

I do think he ratted out the safety of the Losties, particularly the safety of his wife Rose. Maybe Bernard was gonna divorce her anyways so this just expediting the process. The least he could have done was toss in a lie or two to throw the Hostiles off course.

As I said, Bernard's actions are understandable. But are they acceptable? Since when should anyone believe criminals will spare your life if you tell them what they want to know all the while threatening you with death at the same time. This is the reasoning that Sayid and Sawyer obviously utilized, in my opinion, in making the decision to keep quiet under threat of death. Maybe a little open defiance towards the Hostiles as well, but, the two badass boys knew they were dead meat whether they talked or not. Actually, it's more likely the enemy will keep you alive as long as they think you have useful knowledge.

[rknorton91]

You don't have to take the coward as negative

cow·ard http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fcoward) /ˈkaʊhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngərd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[kou-erd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1.a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person

It is quite simple he was never trained to handle that kind of enviroment and in fact many people who are still have a hard time handleing that type of an enviroment . I simple said he was infact acting cowardly in the fact that he was not willing to be quiet and watch Jin get killed (remember it was Jin who was being threatened not Benard) if it had ben Benard being threatened I think he might have been courageous enough to have taken the bullet with out talking. The difference is he does not have to watch someone else die he just has to die.

Therefore I don't think it was a selfish act it was just a cowardly act. Though technicaly if you really want to push selfish you will find selfishness and pride at the center of virtualy ever negative characteristic there is.

[MrSocko]

I do think he ratted out the safety of the Losties, particularly the safety of his wife Rose. Maybe Bernard was gonna divorce her anyways so this just expediting the process. The least he could have done was toss in a lie or two to throw the Hostiles off course.



That idea just comes out of nowhere. Wanting to divorce his wife? After telling her that he is willing to live on a remote island for the rest of his life just so she doesn't have to leave? After taking the job as a shooter for the sole purpose of protecting her? Not to mention the fact that, if that was his intentions, its the stupidest plan ever conceived. Give up Rose's location so maybe she'll get killed and save him the trouble of filing for divorce at the Craphole Island Divorce Clinic?

I do, however, agree with that last line. I was expecting him to just flat out lie to them. I think it would have been enough to save Jin.

[stratman]

That idea just comes out of nowhere. Wanting to divorce his wife? After telling her that he is willing to live on a remote island for the rest of his life just so she doesn't have to leave? After taking the job as a shooter for the sole purpose of protecting her? Not to mention the fact that, if that was his intentions, its the stupidest plan ever conceived. Give up Rose's location so maybe she'll get killed and save him the trouble of filing for divorce at the Craphole Island Divorce Clinic?

I do, however, agree with that last line. I was expecting him to just flat out lie to them. I think it would have been enough to save Jin.

It's an absurd statement for the precise reasons you give.

I purposely wrote that to highlight the bizarre exposure of Lostie plans to the Hostiles by Bernard. I had assumed that his wife meant more to him than his own life because he stayed behind to blow the Hostiles up, which would increase the chance of the Losties succeeding with their plan and improve their chances (specifically his wife's chance) of survival.

If his wife meant the most to him then Bernard would do whatever was needed to ensure her survival - lie or take a bullet. Instead, Bernard forgot about his wife's safety and concentrated upon saving his own and Jin's (and Sayid's I suppose) life. I think one can easily make an argument that Bernard figured once Jin was shot that his turn was next, so Bernard blew chunks before a single shot was squeezed off. Intimidation and self-preservation can occur before or after Jin is shot. Ratting out the safety of the whole group of Losties is the real point, not that he was partial to Jin. If it's between my wife or Jin surviving , well, AMF my brutha!

The reality is that Bernard acted as many a human would given the same circumstance. Without training and/or forethought, one would have a difficult time to not behave as Bernard did. He'll end up getting a pass from the Losties since none of them died and all the attacking Hostiles did. All's well that ends well.

[stratman]

You don't have to take the coward as negative

I've never seen/heard the term 'coward' to mean anything but a pejorative. Please supply references.

Therefore I don't think it was a selfish act it was just a cowardly act. Though technicaly if you really want to push selfish you will find selfishness and pride at the center of virtualy ever negative characteristic there is.

Implicit in the term 'coward' is self-serving, selfish and self-preservational behaviour. It's all about me, myself and I. One acts cowardly to protect one's self, not to protect another. There is nothing prideful about being a coward either.

[keairaii]

Since when Jin knows so much English?

He's understanding everything that SOAB.

:P

If you lived in Korea for two months, and no one spoke English to you, and you had a person teaching you to speak Korean, you'd understand a few basic words like "shoot" and "talk".

[goldenboi24k]

He could of lied. But if he didnt tell them they were going to the radio tower.
Alex wouldn't have met her mom, They wouldnt have caught Ben, and Jack wouldnt have got the radio from Ben to commucate with the beach. It all is a connection dude. He had to do it =D
PS: How the hell did Locke know where they were ?.....

[stratman]

How the hell did Locke know where they were ?.....

The island told him using the appearance of Walt.

Or was it Walt himself?

[Arktouro]

I would do the same as Bernard did. He saved Jin's life. And if they would actually go after the rest of them it was not Bernard's fault. He saved Jin. After all he did his part and shot the dynamite. Bernard did the right thing

[rknorton91]

I've never seen/heard the term 'coward' to mean anything but a pejorative. Please supply references.



Implicit in the term 'coward' is self-serving, selfish and self-preservational behaviour. It's all about me, myself and I. One acts cowardly to protect one's self, not to protect another. There is nothing prideful about being a coward either.
Yeah I knew that post was gonna come back on me it was full of to many double backs :)

But what I mean by not taking Benard being cowardly as bad is that he was never trained to handle that kind of situation. He did act cowardly but it was not really his fault he did the best he could for the experience he had in his past.

But yeah as I stated technically if you take any negative type characteristic and boiled it down you would find selfishness and pride at the center of it.

So I will give and say you could say it was a selfish act but I think you could better describe it as being cowardly.

Hopefully that clarifies my earlier statements?

[Verite Garde]

Sayid had no right to speak for the others and I don't think he did, anyway.

Bernard was never in it to die and I don't blame him.

[No Button No More]

I would do the same as Bernard did. He saved Jin's life. And if they would actually go after the rest of them it was not Bernard's fault. He saved Jin. After all he did his part and shot the dynamite. Bernard did the right thing

I'll be sure not to invite you on any of my suicide missions.:nanabobo:

[Farmer Ted]

Sayid had no right to speak for the others and I don't think he did, anyway.

Bernard was never in it to die and I don't blame him.

Seriously, if Sayid was hoping to avoid a weak link in his plan, he should've chosen Sawyer as the 3d gunman. What could you possibly expect from Bernard? At least he hit the target. Anything after that is gravy.

[vonnegut]

I'm really bemused by those who are down on Bernard about this.

You would really sit by and stonewall while someone blew your friend's brains out right in front of you?

That's kind of.... messed up.

[MrSocko]

Seriously, if Sayid was hoping to avoid a weak link in his plan, he should've chosen Sawyer as the 3d gunman. What could you possibly expect from Bernard? At least he hit the target. Anything after that is gravy.

Or Sayid could have told them before they started "hey, you know if anything happens we can't tell them anything no matter what." I think its ridiculous that this thread lasted so long and people are still chastising the poor dentist. He directly saved 1 man's life, and probably saved all 3. There is no such thing as an "acceptable loss" to Bernard, and I support him.

[ReganSahaya]

One of the great missed opportunities of LOST has been a study of crime and punishment. With no prisons and no societal laws, how do you deal with people who commit "crimes" against society?

Was Sawyer supposed to tie up Mr. Friendly and have someone guard him night and day, or release him and take the chance he'd come back and avenge his friends?

Death, torture, restitution, and exile are basically all that's practical. A limited form of exile, ostracizing someone (as happened to Charlie for a while) is about the only other solution.

The trouble is, the Losties don't even have a formal society. There's a general consensus that Jack's the "leader", but when push comes to shove many of the Losties act however they please.

What is Bernard's crime? Is he a "traitor" for talking? That usually brings a harsh punishment from society, like "hard time" imprisonment or even death. Is somebody going to kill Rose's old man because he was weak? He tried running first, but got clotheslined. If he were a soldier, he might face a court martial, but I don't know if that's a given under the circumstances. Because the Losties have no law, Bernard will apologize, and they probably won't hand him a gun the next time there's trouble. Are we a society that's worse for its laws?

I think this is an excellent point, and you're correct, it certainly is a missed opportunity. What I would have also liked to have seen at least some of in these past few years are hints of a society actually forming; you know, real questioning of Jack's leadership, assigned duties, maybe even elections (Hurley would SO win). But sadly, I don't think the writers are at all interested in delving into these kinds of issues, at least not very deeply.

[ReganSahaya]

I just am laughing trying to figure out what someone would do to "punish" him.

No DHARMA dental floss for a week.

[Lawboy]

Rose ought to give him a spanking.

[vonnegut]

What is it with all the spanking here lately?

Are ya'll TRYING to arouse me?

[The Life of Riley]

:bullwhip:














:whistling

[vonnegut]

Damn you, vixen.

[Enoch Root]

Seriously, if Sayid was hoping to avoid a weak link in his plan, he should've chosen Sawyer as the 3d gunman.

I don't think Sawyer was in the volunteerin' mood at the time. In fact, I'm not sure why he volunteered to go back later? Was it the cold water splash in the face by Kate? Maybe it was the thought of James Jr.?

[stratman]

Yeah I knew that post was gonna come back on me it was full of to many double backs :)

But what I mean by not taking Benard being cowardly as bad is that he was never trained to handle that kind of situation. He did act cowardly but it was not really his fault he did the best he could for the experience he had in his past.

But yeah as I stated technically if you take any negative type characteristic and boiled it down you would find selfishness and pride at the center of it.

So I will give and say you could say it was a selfish act but I think you could better describe it as being cowardly.

Hopefully that clarifies my earlier statements?

Ok. Agree.

I might have done the same as Bernard.

Most of us won't really know how we'll react until placed in that situation.

[stratman]

I'm really bemused by those who are down on Bernard about this.

You would really sit by and stonewall while someone blew your friend's brains out right in front of you?

That's kind of.... messed up.

Save Jin OR save wife.

Tough choice.

I guess you're married?

[sarcasm]

[vonnegut]

No, thank god. :D

And, no one was physically pointing a gun at Rose's head at the time. Not so for Jin.

I don't know, maybe I'm a coward, too, but I couldn't stand by and watch someone get killed when I know a word from me would save their life.

*shrug*

[stratman]

I think its ridiculous that this thread lasted so long and people are still chastising the poor dentist. He directly saved 1 man's life, and probably saved all 3. There is no such thing as an "acceptable loss" to Bernard, and I support him.

Bernard, in ratting out to the Hostiles,:

1) May have only prolonged the lives of Sayid and Jin if it weren't for Hurley. Proir to the order to "shoot in the sand" we were shown Ben ordering his men to kill any Losties that get in the way. There is no reason Ben would not eventually make good on the original mandate.

2) He endangered the rest of the Losties, including his wife, whom you'd think would mean more to him than Jin. Why people ignore this fundamental issue is beyond me. A basic stranger's life or the life of your spouse. Since we aren't privy to Bernard's thoughts, I'll say this issue is like a Rorschach Test for us. You'd pick a stranger? I hope your wife/girlfriend/whatever doesn't read this for your sake.

3) He imperiled the rescue scenario for the Losties including his wife. Maybe he wants to stay on the island (with his wife), believing the island has healed his wife of her cancer.

4) Was frightened, intimidated and undoubtably rationalized in his mind his betrayal as surely as you are rationalizing Bernard's behaviour.

5) He traded his life for his wife's. Saying that Bernard did it for Jin is ludicrous because it implies noble behaviour, which Bernard was devoid of in this particular scenario. Bernard may not have wanted to see Jin dead, but, the real bottomline is that he was next to be shot and he spilled his guts to ultimately save his own hide.

6) We and Bernard are now to take the word of Tom that if someone squeals they all will live. Nearly every single previous interaction of the Losties with the Hostiles has involved the Hostiles being deceitful and ruthless. I guess believing Tom after being threatened with execution is a good a time as any to begin trusting the Hostiles.

7) Only a Deux ex Machina saved the boys from execution. The fantastical and unrealistic scene of Hurley coming to the rescue is such a big stretch that is highlights the TPTB were unable to resolve the scene otherwise. Problems with Hurley's amazing rescue include:

- Hurley able to get van started again
- Gas in van still good
- Hurley able to travel through an extremely dense jungle chock full of pits, holes, rocks, thickets of vegetation and stands of bamboo and other trees that would stop a van even considering the enertia from Hurley's mass.
- Hurley's timing impeccable
- Bullets bounce off the van or Hurley with no discernable effect.


There is no such thing as an "acceptable loss" to Bernard, and I support him.

It's a damn good thing you were not in charge of D-Day, Pacific Island assaults, Stalingrad, and many more battles in WWII.

Thank a teacher for being able to read this post. Thank a US or allied soldier for reading it in English.

[stratman]

No, thank god. :D

And, no one was physically pointing a gun at Rose's head at the time. Not so for Jin.

I don't know, maybe I'm a coward, too, but I couldn't stand by and watch someone get killed when I know a word from me would save their life.

*shrug*

The gun began pointing at Rose when Bernard spilled the beans. Bernard revealed the Losties plan, neutralizing the element of the unknown, and shifted the tactical advantage back towards the Hostiles.

That Ben decided to essentially go it 'alone' against the Losties, instead of a guerilla attack on the defenseless Losties, is only by sheer luck of fiction/TPTB. Ben's actions are pretty kooky (egomaniacal with delusions of grandeur) when you think about it.

Bernard knew he was giving up the Losties, but he could not know what Ben would do with the information. The obvious result would be Ben would harm the Losties at the radio tower. This group included his wife. So, the best case scenario is Bernard "saved" Jin in exchange for his wife's safety.

What a model husband.

I once read that dentists have the highest suicide rate amoung healthcare professionals because of the pain they induce. Maybe Bernie was depressed and not thinking clearly even before a gun was pointing his way.

[interplanetjanet]

2) He endangered the rest of the Losties, including his wife, whom you'd think would mean more to him than Jin. Why people ignore this fundamental issue is beyond me. A basic stranger's life or the life of your spouse. Since we aren't privy to Bernard's thoughts, I'll say this issue is like a Rorschach Test for us. You'd pick a stranger? I hope your wife/girlfriend/whatever doesn't read this for your sake.
What would Rose choose? I think she would have wanted him to save Jin.

5) He traded his life for his wife's. Saying that Bernard did it for Jin is ludicrous because it implies noble behaviour, which Bernard was devoid of in this particular scenario. Bernard may not have wanted to see Jin dead, but, the real bottomline is that he was next to be shot and he spilled his guts to ultimately save his own hide.
No, after Jin was shot, Sayid was definitely next. Prove they'll do it on Jin, then go after Sayid. Bernard spilled under stress to let Jin live--to, in that minute, save Jin's life. A lot of people would do the same. I think some soldiers would, rather than watch a friend be shot in cold blood. As others have pointed out, immediate sparing of a life with a chance the rest of the group can outmaneuver them.

Lying would have been better. But they would have to mix in some truth--they knew about the sat phone from Mikhail, for instance. And it working toward their survival was contrived, but the entire situation start to finish was also.

It's a damn good thing you were not in charge of D-Day, Pacific Island assaults, Stalingrad, and many more battles in WWII.

Thank a teacher for being able to read this post. Thank a US or allied soldier for reading it in English.
I didn't really follow this. The losties are very far from being in WWII. Their complete inability to think of contingency plans is painful, but there it is, it serves the plot for them to always be caught flatfooted when Plan A fails. And while I would never minimize the sacrifices of WWII, or the necessity to fight that war, I think arguing that Germany or Japan would then take over the rest of the world is a stretch.


ETA: I guess, to me it's one thing to criticize the characters' long-range plans, and talk about what I would do differently. I would not waste time, dynamite, wire, manpower, etc to blow up a tree just because I didn't have powerpoint to back up my speech. Setting a nighttime trap (see ep 2) I would not sit staring into the fire and hope to see anyone coming out of the jungle. (Anyone who'd actually been camping on a beach for 2 months with only firelight would have known this.) I wouldn't waste the tiny store of gas on the sailboat to start a fire quicker. I would certainly show more interest in figuring out the island and my course of action (presumably escape, but if I'm going to abandon my old life and stay, do it by more than sitting and waiting for more food pallets to drop from the sky).
Criticizing a momentary high-stress reaction to a situation I've never been in feels different. I'm sure I would talk under torture, though it's fashionable to claim that one would be all Jack Bauer. No one has ever offered to kill a friend while the rest of my tribe tries to make a long hike, and I honestly can't say what I'd do--I hope the "lie with just enough truth to stall" tactic would occur to me, but who knows? Charlie could have lived (possibly) but in the moment to decide he wasn't thinking "how can I get out of this alive?" he was thinking "I'm clearly dead; how can I save and warn Desmond?" Other times someone should have punched first (what if they'd never let Ben get around to making threats and offers?), or jumped left instead of right, but if it was a moment to react--I can admire Sayid's necksnapping without calling Bernard a nasty coward for how the two reacted differently in a moment of opportunity. I'd want Sayid on my team; in the present circumstance, I'd try to keep Bernard there too. They cannot afford to waste their assets--far too little is made of the skills this group of 40 odd must have.

And Bernard was not trying to save his own life. Had the gun been pointed at him, sure. It wasn't. Some people would stay quiet to protect their own life but not sacrifice another, and I think that's what they tried to illustrate with Bernard. It's why Sayid wanted two captives earlier this season. Bernard broke, and it was sad and disappointing, but I would imagine the punishment he would then mete out to himself would render any further punishment from Sayid or Jin moot. The situation is likely about to change, and I hope Sayid et al don't let him wallow in remorse when the threats of season 4 descend upon them--they'll need him at his best. I don't think it's an accident that most of the speaking cast happens to be away from the incoming rescue helicopters.

[stratman]

I didn't really follow this. The losties are very far from being in WWII. Their complete inability to think of contingency plans is painful, but there it is, it serves the plot for them to always be caught flatfooted when Plan A fails. And while I would never minimize the sacrifices of WWII, or the necessity to fight that war, I think arguing that Germany or Japan would then take over the rest of the world is a stretch.

It was in reference to "acceptable loss", which MrSocko54 believes there is no such thing, yet, it has happened throughout history.

Your last sentence is absolutely stupefying. You either grew up learning revisionist history or no history at all about that era. If you are in elementary or junior high school and have not yet had world history then you are merely naive. If you have had history about WWII, you are either dangerously ignorant or mislead by incompetents and should demand a refund or enrollment in a community college history class.

[MrSocko]

It's a damn good thing you were not in charge of D-Day, Pacific Island assaults, Stalingrad, and many more battles in WWII.

Completely agreed. It is a DAMN good thing I was not a part of any of that because I would be worth absolute **** as a soldier. You don't have to tell me that. But I am not going to apologize for the fact that I would never let someone die if I can save them. Wasn't the US Army's motto "No man left behind" at one point?

Thank a teacher for being able to read this post. Thank a US or allied soldier for reading it in English.

I do. Quite often. You don't have to tell me about the heroism of soldiers and how much I owe them. Trust me. :)

Vonne sums up my feelings pretty well...


I don't know, maybe I'm a coward, too, but I couldn't stand by and watch someone get killed when I know a word from me would save their life.


Its that simple. In Bernard's situation (which was far from WWII remember) he acted in a way that IMMEDIATELY AND DIRECTLY saved a mans life. Even if I were in a war (and man the U.S. better hope it doesn't come to that) I would never be able to accept another persons death if I have the immediate power to save them. If that makes me a bad person than I'm a bad person. But by my count, Bernard has saved 3 men's lives, including his own. I will probably never have that that honor in my entire life.

[interplanetjanet]

I'm 38 and have a quite adequate knowledge of history. There are many possible alternate histories to spin about what would have happened if various allied powers entered the war at different points, various intelligence aspects (enigma) or battles (blocking the mouth of Pearl Harbor with ships trying to get out to maneuver) went differently. In my opinion, Germany or Japan taking over the US was not in the cards, though certainly taking over territories elsewhere was. People around the world studying German or Japan rather than English could believably be spun. "Obviously one of them would take over the US and probably the world" is, in my opinion, reaching. I disagree with you; that doesn't make me a junior high school student.

[MrSocko]

Your last sentence is absolutely stupefying. You either grew up learning revisionist history or no history at all about that era. If you are in elementary or junior high school and have not yet had world history then you are merely naive. If you have had history about WWII, you are either dangerously ignorant or mislead by incompetents and should demand a refund or enrollment in a community college history class.

And with that, my poor friend, you have forever lost any credibility. Its a shame, I was hoping this argument would get interesting.

[goldenboi24k]

Should Bernard be punished for spilling his guts to the Others? Sayid had already stated he would be willing to die if it assured rescue and then Bernard goes all chicken <snip>. Sure things just happened to turn out OK but Jin and Sayid must be pissed at him.

He could of lied. But if he didnt tell them they were going to the radio tower.
Alex wouldn't have met her mom, They wouldnt have caught Ben, and Jack wouldnt have got the radio from Ben to commucate with the beach. It all is a connection dude. He had to do it =D
PS: How the hell did Locke know where they were ?.....

[rknorton91]

My goodness we still arguing this? If we really insist on what Benard did or didn't do. Then point in fact as history shows he saved the three of them. But you see unless he had some vision to know it would work out ok he basicaly traded the lives of themselves for about 30 some odd other poeple not a very shrewd trade. Especialy if one of them is your wife not to mention another mans wife and a mother and a small baby. It worked out fine but the risk was extremely high and the odds against everything coming out ok was not good. Most people would tend to think it would be a bad decision to have done what he did but then again most people probably would have done the same thing if they were put in that situation in order to avoid having to watch your friend right next you get blown away. Remember just becuase most people would do such a thing does not make it the right thing to do. (I am not much for majority rules in moral matters)

But in the end it would be interesting to find that maybe Benard had an instinct allready that the island has a tendancy to sometimes make peoples desires come true? maybe he all ready knew that they would be fine?.. but I don't know he didn't seem that confidant?

[MrSocko]

It worked out fine but the risk was extremely high and the odds against everything coming out ok was not good.

Thats where I disagree. The chances of them killing all the radio tower people was EXTREMELY LOW. The Others originally had no intention of killing anybody, just taking a few. I know thats still something you want to avoid, but compare that to the immediate murder of someone sitting right next to you.

But this argument has now gone in a circle at least 4 or 5 times so maybe its time for it to die :)

[CatWoman]

I don't think so. I doubt Jin would be too angry considering Bernard did it to save his life. It may have been a moment of weakness, but I think a whole lot of people would have done the same thing :)


I agree - Jin must feel relieve that Bernard cared about him and could not let him die.

And as far as Sayid, He might see Bernard as a hero since he could not kill a friend, plus the fact that Jin is about to be a father!

[iTsMe]

forget Bernard somebody get rid of Rose. Nag nag nag nag.....you cant do this you cant do that nag nag nag nag!

[korunn chalsad]

should Bernard be punished: no

[KoR-evo]

Bernard is a turncoat and a danger to everyone he comes into contact with. Not only did he turn his back on Ana-Lucia, after she saved his hide (Season 2) but he now scuttles off like a coward whilst his two fellows are being held at gunpoint! Let's face it the man let his ego get the better of him, he should've been responsible enough to not get involved in the first place when the whole world and his dog knows that he's a cowardly lion. I mean I get over the fact that he legged it after all his big talk.

Ad for his decision to tell the Others about the location of the A-Team, well that also shows the mans incompetence, i mean why would anyone put their wife's life in danger like that. Fair enough we (as in the audience) know that the Others arent savages and probably wouldnt have harmed them, but Bernard and the losties dont see things that way and yet the man still went and jabbered.

The problem with bernard is that Jin and Sayid were prepared to die..they knew the gravity of the situation..Bernard? well he just wanted to be involved after his shambles of an SOS a few weeks back.

Rambo indeed.. :P

[No Button No More]

I agree - Jin must feel relieve that Bernard cared about him and could not let him die.

And as far as Sayid, He might see Bernard as a hero since he could not kill a friend, plus the fact that Jin is about to be a father!

So you are willing to ignore the statements from Sayid and Jin!?!

Sayid said that he wouldn't mind dieing if it meant escape for the 40 Losties. And Jim directly told Bernard "NO TALK!"

[stratman]

I'm 38 and have a quite adequate knowledge of history. There are many possible alternate histories to spin about what would have happened if various allied powers entered the war at different points, various intelligence aspects (enigma) or battles (blocking the mouth of Pearl Harbor with ships trying to get out to maneuver) went differently. In my opinion, Germany or Japan taking over the US was not in the cards, though certainly taking over territories elsewhere was. People around the world studying German or Japan rather than English could believably be spun. "Obviously one of them would take over the US and probably the world" is, in my opinion, reaching. I disagree with you; that doesn't make me a junior high school student.

Only one thing mattered concerning an Axis invasion of the continental US: Who lost the war through defeat in battle in the European and Pacific Theaters and subsequent militaryand political capitulation.

The Allies won and the Axis did not. Losing meant the Axis could not set up strategic bases of operations in order to have the opportunity for a large scale invasion of the Continental USA.

There was no lack of desire by the Axis to invade the continental US.


Germany:

1) Hitler believed in a German World Empire. This included the conquest and rule of the USA.

2) Hitler ordered his strategists to come up with a plan for the invasion of the USA before the USA declared war in the summer of 1941. Hitler reiterated his desire to invade the USA via another request for further/refined invasion plans in July 1941. Germany declared war on the USA on December 11, 1941.

3) To facilitate the invasion of the USA, Hitler green lighted the Amerka Bomber project, which included an ambitious rocket powered aircraft (Eugen Sänger's Silbervogel ("Silverbird") sub-orbital bomber) that could hit the continental USA. Actual prototypes of the long range bombers Messerschmitt Me 264 and Junkers Ju 390 ("The New York Bomber") were built specifically to reach the continental USA. Another plan called for V-1 and V-2 rockets to be fitted to U-Boats and launched on New York City, and Luftwaffe Junkers Ju 290 planes armed with four V-1 under their wings. The Germans also considered using long-range missiles launched from France to hit the American mainland.

4) Numerous infiltrations, attacks and attempts of sabotage within the United States:
- Operation Pastorius
- Operation Elster ("Magpie")
- Several US ships torpedoed by German U-Boats off the eastern seaboard within US waters and some close enough for US citizens watch the attacks from the beach.

5) Although not the US, Bell Island, an island located off Newfoundland's Avalon Peninsula in Conception Bay, was directly attacked by German U-Boats.
6) Although not in the US, Weather Station Kurt, officially Wetter-Funkgerät Land-26, was a weather station erected by a German U-boat crew in northern Labrador, Newfoundland in 1943. The installation of Weather Station Kurt was the only armed German military operation on land in North America during the Second World War.

7) The Germans were racing to develop an atomic bomb. Use or threat of use within the USA (following appropriate demonstrations on European, Soviet or African territories.). This would be followed by a full-scale invasion and installation of a puppet regime. What would follow would not be benevolent.


Japan:

There has been much conjecture concerning whether Japan could logistically undertake an invasion of the continental US. As all things military and political, opportunity, desire and need dictate action. Would Japan remain satisfied with control of Asia alone? There were plans, some actions but the opportunity to launch a full scale invasion did not present itself. Defeat of the Allies in the Pacific Theater would have emboldened the Japanese and opened up the very real possibility of leapfrogging across the Pacific south to west coasts of South, Central or North America or north from the Aleutian Islands to Alaska. Ridiculous you say? Read on.

1) The Japanese invaded the Aleutian Islands, an American territory. That would actually be an invasion of America! The Japanese were about 1100-1200 miles from the Alaskan Peninsula. After Pearl Harbor, work was begun on the Alaskan Highway so that the American (and Canadian) military could have a supply line for the protection of Alaska against an attack. Once the Aleutians were invaded, work on the 1500 mile Alcan Highway project went into overdrive and was completed in about 8 months! Incredible feat.

2) Japan invaded the Philippines, an American protectorate (some say colony). That would be another invasion of US territory.

3) Japan invaded Guam, another American protectorate. Yet another example of an invasion of US territory.

4) Vice-Admiral Kazume Kinsei, a former UCLA student, proposed using six Kawanishi H8K "Emily" flying boats to bomb the west coast of the United States. After the Battle of Midway, Kinsei revised the plan to propose that as many as thirty H8Ks refueled from submarines off the Baja California coast, bomb oilfields in Texas and then rendezvous with German "Milch Kuh" ("Milk Cow") U-boat tankers in the Gulf of Mexico. Thereafter, supported by the U-boat tankers, they would range up and down the east coast of the United States making terror and propaganda raids on cities such as Boston, New York and Washington, D.C. The idea was approved by both the Japanese naval command and German U-boat chief Admiral Karl Dönitz

5) "Operation PX", a top secret plan to use aircraft to unleash bacteriological warfare on populous areas of the American West Coast and Pacific Islands. As an alternative, the Japanese considered bombing San Francisco, Panama, Washington, D.C. or New York.

4) The Japanese Navy ordered the construction of Nakajima G10N "Fugaku" (Mount Fuji), an ultra-long range heavy bomber, for bombing the United States mainland. The bomb-load capability of the bomber was 20,000 kg for short-range sorties; 5,000 kg for sorties against targets in the U.S. Another similar project with a similar purpose was the four engined bomber Nakajima G8N "Renzan" Rita. The Japanese Army ordered the design of Tachikawa Ki- 74 "Patsy", an ultra long-range reconnaissance bomber originally designed to be used against Soviets in Siberian lands. Later, it was ordered for development for bombing missions against the United States. The bomb charge was 500 kg to 1,000 kg. This bomber was also known as the "Japanese Siberian Bomber"


Italy:

1) The Italian 10th Light Flotilla had detailed plans to attack New York City with midget submarines. How Felliniesque. Only the signing of the armistice kept the plan from being executed.

2) Number 2? It's amazing there was a number 1.


The reality is there were plans for the invasion of the continental US. In fact, US territories and mainland coastal waters were invaded and used for tactical missions. The only thing that prevented an all out Axis invasion was they lost the war. Thank God for the Allies and the great American spirit. Without these, your life would be quite different indeed, possibly including speaking a different language.

This is history that you should know something about.


(Though many sources were used, much of this text is pasted from http://www.answers.com/topic/axis-plans-for-invasion-of-the-united-states-during-wwii.)

[stratman]

And with that, my poor friend, you have forever lost any credibility. Its a shame, I was hoping this argument would get interesting.

To be credible requires believability, worthiness, merit.

To be credible requires a foundation of fact and/or plausibility.

Scolding aside, my posts have been largely credible and contain a wealth of supportive data.

You may benefit as well from my last post concerning Axis plans and actions towards an US invasion. Maybe then you will have something credible to contribute instead of weak attempts at marginalization in support of ignorance.

[marshall2u]

It's amazing to me how some threads keep going....and change focus totally. If we can make such sudden changes, I want to interject the results of the latest American Idol and it's role in whether Bernard should be punished (Bernard "sang" to his captors). Oh, and I think the winner of the last Superbowl plays a role also....the COLTS won the superbowl....and Kate saw a horse (colt). Their opponent was the "Bears." Can anyone say POLAR bear???

Settle down everyone....lets keep it out of the "silly" realm.

[marshall2u]

To be credible requires believability, worthiness, merit.

To be credible requires a foundation of fact and/or plausibility.

Scolding aside, my posts have been largely credible and contain a wealth of supportive data.

You may benefit as well from my last post concerning Axis plans and actions towards an US invasion. Maybe then you will have something credible to contribute instead of weak attempts at marginalization in support of ignorance.

How does this fit into this thread?????? Where is YOUR credibility? I can state facts all night long, but if they have nothing to do with the subject at hand, then...um....don't state them.

[stratman]

My goodness we still arguing this? If we really insist on what Benard did or didn't do. Then point in fact as history shows he saved the three of them. But you see unless he had some vision to know it would work out ok he basicaly traded the lives of themselves for about 30 some odd other poeple not a very shrewd trade. Especialy if one of them is your wife not to mention another mans wife and a mother and a small baby. It worked out fine but the risk was extremely high and the odds against everything coming out ok was not good. Most people would tend to think it would be a bad decision to have done what he did but then again most people probably would have done the same thing if they were put in that situation in order to avoid having to watch your friend right next you get blown away. Remember just becuase most people would do such a thing does not make it the right thing to do. (I am not much for majority rules in moral matters)

But in the end it would be interesting to find that maybe Benard had an instinct allready that the island has a tendancy to sometimes make peoples desires come true? maybe he all ready knew that they would be fine?.. but I don't know he didn't seem that confidant?

Thank you for your rational comments.

Without Hurley, a van driving Deux ex Machina, the captives had a high probability of a different outcome. No way Bernard could have known this when he decided to spill the beans on his fellow Losties hiking to the radio tower.

[stratman]

How does this fit into this thread?????? Where is YOUR credibility? I can state facts all night long, but if they have nothing to do with the subject at hand, then...um....don't state them.

The topic is not explicitly Lost related but was part of some postings developed out of the thread's topic.

Try reading previous postings before commenting about relevance or credibility.

[RoseArienh]

Should Bernard be punished for spilling his guts to the Others? Sayid had already stated he would be willing to die if it assured rescue and then Bernard goes all chicken <snip>. Sure things just happened to turn out OK but Jin and Sayid must be pissed at him.
Just quoting the original post so I can keep my wits about me....

In the society of the crash survivors, I've not seen evidence of planned "law and order." Every event is handled on an ad hoc basis. Individuals make decisions that would be made by several agencies here in the states: police, lawyers, juries, judges, etc. And maybe this kind of set up can work for these people at this time and place. I'm not saying it's bad or good, just that it exists.

So, Bernard and punishment. Personally, I think he will be severely punished by his conscience. Whether or not he saved Jin and/or Sayid, he gave information on the rest of the group. He knows it. He will have to live with it.

Will the rest find out? Only if Jin and Sayid tell. Then, Bernard could face a certain amount of ostracization. Another punishment.

If Jin and Sayid do not tell, will their attitude toward Bernard change? Will their group notice? Wonder? Ask? Speculate? Spread gossip and rumors? Again, Bernard would at best get the cold shoulder. Will Rose lose respect for him? Another punishment.

In this environment, what punishment is available? Banishment, death, or some kind of lock up. Banishment and death are probably too severe. All of us have a breaking point. I thank all that I hold holy that I don't know what mine is. I think I'd choose death over betraying loved ones. I hope so.

Lock up is not practical. Bernard would then be in the position of a parasite that gets waited on.

I think Bernard will be punished, but mostly by himself, and mostly in a very private, emotional and mental way.

[marshall2u]

Well, then FINE....the Colts winning the Superbowl is more important than WWII....at least there was a horse in the show.....oh, and there is a sale on milk at my grocery store this week....I can bring that into the argument too, huh? Seems anyone can change the subject....

[stratman]

Thats where I disagree. The chances of them killing all the radio tower people was EXTREMELY LOW. The Others originally had no intention of killing anybody, just taking a few. I know thats still something you want to avoid, but compare that to the immediate murder of someone sitting right next to you.

Ben ordered that any Lostie getting in the way of kidnapping the women should be killed.

I doubt that the Losties would allow a Hostile raid at the radio tower without resistance particularly given Jack's frame of mind and Sawyer's ill-humored mood. Considering Ben's earlier order to kill, there was a high probability of death and/or injury for the Losties.

[CatWoman]

So you are willing to ignore the statements from Sayid and Jin!?!

Sayid said that he wouldn't mind dieing if it meant escape for the 40 Losties. And Jim directly told Bernard "NO TALK!"


I am not ignoring the statements Jin and Sayid made. But Bernard could not stand by and watch is friends killed!

[MrSocko]

Ben ordered that any Lostie getting in the way of kidnapping the women should be killed.

I doubt that the Losties would allow a Hostile raid at the radio tower without resistance particularly given Jack's frame of mind and Sawyer's ill-humored mood. Considering Ben's earlier order to kill, there was a high probability of death and/or injury for the Losties.

Again, thats where we disagree. I can't say anything more that I haven't already said, and I don't think you can either. Did Bernard's actions endanger the hikers? Yes. Did it save Jin's life? Yes. Did it save Sayid's life? Most likely. Was there an immediate threat facing the rest of the Losties and absolute confirmation that they would be killed? No. Was there that for Jin? Yes.

Thats my argument. I could never sit there while a friend of mine sitting right next to me was executed. I couldn't do it, and it is absolutely nothing to apologize for. You say Jin may be mad at Bernard in the future but I highly doubt that is true. I don't think I could ever be mad at someone who saved my life.

To be credible requires believability, worthiness, merit.

To be credible requires a foundation of fact and/or plausibility.

Scolding aside, my posts have been largely credible and contain a wealth of supportive data.

You may benefit as well from my last post concerning Axis plans and actions towards an US invasion. Maybe then you will have something credible to contribute instead of weak attempts at marginalization in support of ignorance.

And unfortunately for you, credibility is a little more than that. I was referring to your ridiculous remarks to another poster. To be credible, you cannot be an arrogant, senseless, "I know more than you" jerk. And the post I quotes when I said you lost credibility highlighted the fact that you can be a total jerk. Take your own advice and stop with the weak attempts at marginalization, by telling other posters that they're stupider than you. And by the way, I don't know how I could possibly benefit from reading the post about Axis plans. The last thing I want to discuss on a LOST message board is world history, I'm sorry.

[Bernard]

I didn't see any of the sheep stepping up to fill the breach -- I don't hear anyone complaining about Jin and his bullet trouble - but oh, let's pick on the dentist - except you don't have any real law on this island to condemn me with - nor is there a law that requires me to let compatriots die in the name of unknown outcomes elsewhere

and, you know, even the Prime Directive is not absolutely inviolate in all situations

you wanna punish me, sure, ok, the one of you who is without sin, let him cast the first stone

you braying sheep would do well to learn about gratitude

[r.hyythloday]

Hey, maybe bernard's the one who's in the coffin in the finale . . . doubt it, though.


except you don't have any real law on this island
I believe the law of "wife is always, always right" is in play here, so Bernard is fully exonerated.

[Darkshines]

I'd like to see Sayid perform dental work on him......

[No Button No More]

But Bernard could not stand by and watch is friends killed!
Because he is a coward? Or because he doesn't understand the concept of a suicide mission?

[MrSocko]

Because he is a coward? Or because he doesn't understand the concept of a suicide mission?

Maybe because it wasn't a suicide mission. It was risky, but I never heard anyone say suicide. (Yes, Sayid said he was willing to give his life, should he need to. Bernard was not around for that discussion.)

[FrodoFraggins]

I'm amazed this thread is still going strong.

Bernard did what most people would do. He saved Jin's life.

Sayid should have constructed a lie for them to tell if they were caught. Bernard clearly wasn't prepared for that situation and it's something they could have rehearsed for quite some time as the attack didn't happen until the evening.

[CatWoman]

Because he is a coward? Or because he doesn't understand the concept of a suicide mission?


He is not a coward - he did not want his friends to get killed.

[CatWoman]

Maybe because it wasn't a suicide mission. It was risky, but I never heard anyone say suicide. (Yes, Sayid said he was willing to give his life, should he need to. Bernard was not around for that discussion.)


And if you remember, Sayid is the only one that said to jack that he would be willing to die to save the others. So Bernard was not aware it was a suicide mission!

[stratman]

Again, thats where we disagree. I can't say anything more that I haven't already said, and I don't think you can either. Did Bernard's actions endanger the hikers? Yes. Did it save Jin's life? Yes. Did it save Sayid's life? Most likely. Was there an immediate threat facing the rest of the Losties and absolute confirmation that they would be killed? No. Was there that for Jin? Yes.

You have constructed a straw man argument. I never said "immediate" nor "absolute". In sum, my point was about probabilities based on prior behaviour without adding in hindsight or a writer's whimsy. How can you be sure Bernard would have saved Jin and Sayid for more than a minute or two, as though the Hostiles would still not harm the captives once they received the information they desired? All previous behaviour of the Hostiles displayed deceitful and violent intent and action. There should be no expectation of mercy just because Tom says so. Only through a Deux ex Machina resolution were the captives saved.

Thats my argument. I could never sit there while a friend of mine sitting right next to me was executed. I couldn't do it, and it is absolutely nothing to apologize for. You say Jin may be mad at Bernard in the future but I highly doubt that is true. I don't think I could ever be mad at someone who saved my life.

I have not denied your personal feelings on how you would handle yourself in a similar situation. In fact I stated numerous times I might do the same as Bernard.

I never said Jin would be mad at Bernard in the future.

And unfortunately for you, credibility is a little more than that. I was referring to your ridiculous remarks to another poster. To be credible, you cannot be an arrogant, senseless, "I know more than you" jerk. And the post I quotes when I said you lost credibility highlighted the fact that you can be a total jerk. Take your own advice and stop with the weak attempts at marginalization, by telling other posters that they're stupider than you. And by the way, I don't know how I could possibly benefit from reading the post about Axis plans. The last thing I want to discuss on a LOST message board is world history, I'm sorry.

My bad for introducing reality and fact into this thread.

My bad for being knowledgable and trying to educate the uninformed on a critical historical fact.

A 38 yo person who does not believe the fact that the Axis powers would have invaded the USA. Your support of ignorance over fact out of a misguided sympathy because someone tells the stark truth. All this commencing the day following Memorial Day, a time for remembrance of the sacrifice of the military.

By all means, maintain your credibility with more of your straw arguments, support of emotion over fact, fabricated recollections bordering on bald faced lies and ignoring facts presented to you on a silver platter.

Stop behaving like a troll and start contributing. I would suggest you talk to a few WWII veterans and see what they say except, as you've already stated, "I don't know how I could possibly benefit from reading the post about Axis plans".

My bad. I guess you already know everything.

[LPU]

Why would he be punished again? And by whom? This is silly.

[klh]

Why would he be punished again? And by whom? This is silly.
I agree, but it's kind of entertaining. I particularly enjoy it when someone paraphrases a wikipedia article and thinks it makes them look smart.

[Unlocke Locke]

Punished? You mean like slapped on the hand or pistol whipped? Chained to a tree and shot? No dessert before bedtime?

Anyway you look at it, the thought of it is ridiculous. No Bernard should not be punished in any way.

[My Name Is Jack]

But Jin's words were "No! No Talk!". Of course Jin will be happy with the results but who would ever trust Bernard in a life or death situation again?
Judging from how blindly the losties tell Kate, for example, to keep a secret for the 42nd time only to have her spill her guts to just about anyone else, I'm sure that everyone will graciously allow Bernard a free pass. At least he had a valid reason. Maybe Kate did too when she marched straight over to Jack and told him about the tape. I dunno. I love this show but the choices these characters make are beyond silly sometimes, but it's all in the name to have a dramatic payoff which "Lost" usually delivers.

[Arktouro]

Even in a structured society with laws and a constitution, Bernard would not be punished, simply because a law like that would be ridiculous. After all he saved a man's life. Plus he promised Rose to remember that he is a dentist and not Rambo.

[TheArcaneAngel]

Jin is the one who should be punished for being such a lousy marksman. I mean how many shots did he take? No rescue for you Jin, stay behind and shoot at the sand some more :D

[RicoSlim]

i still say chop Bernards arm off

[No Button No More]

Judging from how blindly the losties tell Kate, for example, to keep a secret for the 42nd time only to have her spill her guts to just about anyone else, I'm sure that everyone will graciously allow Bernard a free pass. .

:D With this I certainly agree.

[MrSocko]

You have constructed a straw man argument. I never said "immediate" nor "absolute". In sum, my point was about probabilities based on prior behaviour without adding in hindsight or a writer's whimsy. How can you be sure Bernard would have saved Jin and Sayid for more than a minute or two, as though the Hostiles would still not harm the captives once they received the information they desired?

In sum, my point is that the immediate and absolute threat facing Jin is reason enough for Bernard's actions. You are calling that a "straw man argument" for a reason I can't fathom. Basically, I think its just boils down to the fact that we disagree. I think the threat facing Jin makes Bernard's actions enviable--not worthy of punishment. And I can't say that they would not harm them even after the initial threat, but you can't say that would have. Its a moot point. Either way, that does not detract from the point I'm trying to make.

My bad for introducing reality and fact into this thread.

My bad for being knowledgable and trying to educate the uninformed on a critical historical fact.

Its not your bad for introducing reality, I was merely making the point that the history of World War II is not what I am here to debate. I am not overly knowledgeable on the subject so I can't argue with you, but I am very knowledgeable on the subject of LOST, and the subject of myself. Thats what this debate was supposed to be. Did Bernard behave badly? Would/should I have done the same thing? Thats what I want to talk about. Bringing up a subject that is barely related and then chastising others for wanting to stick to the original topic is not fair.

A 38 yo person who does not believe the fact that the Axis powers would have invaded the USA. Your support of ignorance over fact out of a misguided sympathy because someone tells the stark truth.

I'm not really sure what this is a reference too. I'm guessing its about the fact that someone argued with your holier-than-though knowledge of history. There isn't much I can say to that, except that I am in no way supporting ignorance out of sympathy, where the hell did you possibly get that? Personally, I think there is plenty of an argument against the hypothetical invasion of the USA, but thats just me. I would have to hear the debate before I chose a side.


All this commencing the day following Memorial Day, a time for remembrance of the sacrifice of the military.

Completely uncalled for and irrelevant. I know what you're trying to do, and its not going to work. You've been talking down to anyone who doesn't seem to have as much historical knowledge, and now you try to make it seem like were offending veterans? Get real.

By all means, maintain your credibility with more of your straw arguments, support of emotion over fact, fabricated recollections bordering on bald faced lies and ignoring facts presented to you on a silver platter.

Again, not sure what this is. I don't recall ever fabricating recollections or bald faced lying. And what you call "ignoring facts" (I assume in reference to your WWII diatribe) was simply my not wanting to get involved in an historical debate. This is a LOST forum. I want to talk about LOST, so I ignored a very lengthy post about a subject that presents little interest to me.

I would suggest you talk to a few WWII veterans and see what they say except, as you've already stated, "I don't know how I could possibly benefit from reading the post about Axis plans".

I have no idea how this is relevant. For the 100th time, how would talking to a WWII veteran aid me in this thread topic? I mean in another situation I agree. There is plenty to learn from the past (particularly epochs of war), but I don't think a veteran would be happy if I approached him and asked whether or not he supports Bernard. Whats worse though is that you are actually putting words in mouth. That quote in bold is obscenely out of context. But, once again, in a thread discussing Lost and Lost matters, I would rather read a lengthy post about Lost than WWII. If I wanted that, I would find a message board for it. I never said anything to disrespect the past. You don't need to study history to have an unspoken reverence for it.

My bad. I guess you already know everything.

Well its about time. Now you can realize why you're wrong. If I'm always right, and we're disagreeing, then something is wrong. Simple deductive logic. :)

But unfortunately, we are not even close to talking about Bernard anymore.

[Darkrogue]

I can't believe this is still being debated.

:confused:

[Give patchy a break]

I think I heard about this. Something about a full moon during hiatus makes people turn on each other like cannibals.

[MrSocko]

I think I heard about this. Something about a full moon during hiatus makes people turn on each other like cannibals.

Hey, if you have an entire group of addicts and you take away their drug, its bound to get ugly every once and a while ;)

[Mr. Peppers]

Should Bernard be punished for spilling his guts to the Others? Sayid had already stated he would be willing to die if it assured rescue and then Bernard goes all chicken <snip>. Sure things just happened to turn out OK but Jin and Sayid must be pissed at him.

I used the word S**T in one on my posts and people jumped all over me because of it. But now that I threw that in, I guess I must answer the question. Bernard is the type of guy that would spill his guts and hope that honesty would work to his benefit. He has probably never really even come close to expierencing a life or death moment in his life time. Sayid is just plain awesome and not scared to die to benefit the rest of the Losties.

[melancana]

It seems that this thread has reached the general consensus that Bernard should not be punished (for various reasons) and has now become a discussion about the relative morality of his actions, what we would do in his place, and (for reasons I don't entirely understand) WWII.

I agree, he shouldn't be punished. It would be impractical, even if he deserved it, not to mention silly since everything did turn out all right

But that's not to say I wasn't completely angry at him during the episode when he started blabbing. I mean, I was glad he spoke up to save Jin and all, but did he have to tell them everything? He didn't have to say anything about the radio tower at all, he could have just said that everyone else went to hide out in the jungle while the 3 of them carried out their ambush, which doesn't seem like that hard a lie to come up with. But hey, I can even forgive him for that since I'm sure he wasn't exactly able to think clearly - the only thing he was thinking about was how to immediately save Jin and Sayid, and sure, probably himself as well. He's a dentist, as several people have said, he wasn't exactly trained to handle intense, spur-of-the-moment, life-or-death decisions.

I put some blame on Sayid too. Not for choosing Bernard - if he was the best shot, then he was the best choice. But they definitely should have figured out beforehand what to do if they were caught. Like interplanetjanet keeps saying, the Losties just aren't much good at planning for contingencies. :)

From another angle, I suppose Bernard blabbing was a necessary plot point in order for Ben to find the Losties and for the rest of the episode to happen. So can we really blame him for a plot contrivance?

Small side note: Can we start a thread about whether JACK should be punished? Yeah, it was good that he took Ben's walkie-talkie, but then he gave it back when Ben asked nicely? That was stupid. Then he just let Sayid, Jin, and Bernard be killed (at least he thought they were killed, so it amounts to the same thing) instead of doing the smart thing and just TELLING Ben he'd bring him the sat. phone in order to buy some more time? Stupid. If they really had died, I would be so beyond pissed at Jack.

[Unlocke Locke]

Jin is the one who should be punished for being such a lousy marksman. I mean how many shots did he take? No rescue for you Jin, stay behind and shoot at the sand some more :D

I actually had the impression that Jin was trying to miss the explosives on purpose. Why? I have no idea.

[Unlocke Locke]

But that's not to say I wasn't completely angry at him during the episode when he started blabbing. I mean, I was glad he spoke up to save Jin and all, but did he have to tell them everything? He didn't have to say anything about the radio tower at all, he could have just said that everyone else went to hide out in the jungle while the 3 of them carried out their ambush, which doesn't seem like that hard a lie to come up with. But hey, I can even forgive him for that since I'm sure he wasn't exactly able to think clearly - the only thing he was thinking about was how to immediately save Jin and Sayid, and sure, probably himself as well. He's a dentist, as several people have said, he wasn't exactly trained to handle intense, spur-of-the-moment, life-or-death decisions.[quote]

I think he was just following the script...lol....if he had not, then we would not have had the conflict.

Small side note: Can we start a thread about whether JACK should be punished? Yeah, it was good that he took Ben's walkie-talkie, but then he gave it back when Ben asked nicely? That was stupid. Then he just let Sayid, Jin, and Bernard be killed (at least he thought they were killed, so it amounts to the same thing) instead of doing the smart thing and just TELLING Ben he'd bring him the sat. phone in order to buy some more time? Stupid. If they really had died, I would be so beyond pissed at Jack.


Its just a TV show.

[Give patchy a break]

I actually had the impression that Jin was trying to miss the explosives on purpose. Why? I have no idea.

I think he just prefers the more personal experience of killing. He took a couple token shots for posterity, then decided to nail two guys in the chest for the hell of it.:rolleyez:

[Give patchy a break]

Its just a TV show.

It's still real to me!