View Full Version : Hiatus Rewatch (06/03/09-06/10/09)-S1E5: White Rabbit
This is the discussion thread for the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch - Season 1 Episode 5 , "White Rabbit"
Written by : Christian Taylor
The original (or as close to original as exists) thread for this episode can be found here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6141).
General questions about the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch can be posted in the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37370).
Episode Description:
After they fail to save a woman from drowning, Jack goes on a spiritual quest, while Boone tries to prove his worth. Jack sees his father.
Dharma For One
06-20-07, 02:45 PM
The episode was written by "Christian" Taylor. Ha Ha! Well, at least, Christian Taylor isn't dead! Now, I wonder if he would write his own namesake out of the show? Or, should we give credit to those clever wild boars who may have snatched Christian out of a closed coffin?
Forgive my afterthought, but the wild boars are Smokey, and they flew to Sydney and snatched him there. Lol!
Ida Monster
06-21-07, 03:43 PM
Notes for White Rabbit
Scene: Joanna is drowning.
Oddly, Boone is nowhere to be seen in the ocean. Was he hidden behind the swells? Jack had to dive to find him and pull him up above water.
Charlie utters "I don't swim.. I don't swim"; a line fleshed out in the Season 3 finale.Boone has guilt, self-esteem, and responsibility issues.
Sawyer is shown reading Watership Down. Another tie in to the rabbit theme, but not the Alice in Wonderland reference.
The Hairbrush Mystery: Claire tells Kate that she can't find any hair brushes after looking through 20 (exaggeration) bags.
Claire asks Kate if she's a Gemini, which she confirms. Gemini is the sign of "the Twins". Geminis usually have a dual personality, something which Kate is trying to hide from the other survivors. This scene also shows Claire's interest in astrology and the paranormal, and her earlier motivation to visit a psychic.
Scene: a JackBack with his mom.
In the background is a lamp statue/lamp of an elephant. It appears to be Hindu or Buddhist Thai design. This loosely ties into the Dharma/Buddhism theme. The only other elephant statue I can remember in the show was in Ben's bungalow, a statue of the Hindi god Ganesha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesh).Scene: Jack's HAVIDs of his father, Christian, on the island.
What picqued my interest in this scene was the way HAVID dad is dressed. He's in a blue suit with white sneakers. It sort of reminded me of the guy who's similarly dressed in Desmond's "time travelling" trip in Flashes Before Your Eyes.That guy was wearing a suit with red sneakers and enevitably met his fate with a falling girder.Locke is Creepy.
He smiles and seems almost happy while predicting the riots and chaos of the rest of the survivors when they discover the drinking water is stolen.
Scene: Jack runs through the jungle looking for HAVID dad.
Similar camerawork: When he stops and the camera swings around him 360 degrees. We see the same shot in the episode S.O.S. when Jack treks to the "line in the sand" that Cpt.Zeke (Tom) made.
Smoky manifests as Christian: As Jack is running and searching for HAVID Dad, typical sounds made by Smoky are heard. HAVID Dad usually has his back turned to Jack inferring Jack's feeling of rejection by his father.Sayid's intuition correctly tells him that Sun understands the English language.
Sawyer to Kate: "You're the new Sheriff in town." A line he repeats in a later episode about himself.
Jack to Locke regarding his HAVIDs: "I see him but he's not there."
This scene parallels Locke's vision of Jacob.
Scene: Jack is sitting at his campfire at night.IMHO, I heard the sound of ice cubes clinking in a "lowball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_fashioned_glass)" glass just before Jack jumped up and ran after HAVID dad. Nice touch with the sound effect.
First appearance of the doll theme:
Jack finds a few dolls near the plane wreckage at the caves, which were obviously in the baggage hold of the plane prior.
SBSSG (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12424&highlight=faith+fay)! The Sexy Blue Striped Shirt Girl (Faith Fay) is in numerous scenes, one notably at the Sydney Airport on the escalator while Jack is arguing at check-in. Mmmm.. SBSSG.:itmdrool: :pant:
Unlocke Locke
06-21-07, 05:33 PM
Did Charlie learn to swim after so many days on the island?
The abyss that Jack is hanging over looks similar to the abyss that they were crossing when the bridge broke in the Numbers episode.
I too notice the odd way that Jack's dad was dressed. He was wearing white sneakers which reminded me of the one white sneaker hanging in the tree in the Pilot.
I agree that Boone lacks confidence. Especially after having an argument with Jack about rescuing Joanne. One of his defenses was that he owns a business. I was thinking, what does that have to do with being able to rescue someone drowning in the ocean. A better defense would have been to remind Jack that he is a lifeguard. Apparently, being a business owner carries more weight in the mind of Boone, than being a lifeguard.
Ida Monster, you touched on a few things I noticed too. I even remember watching that epi for the first time and wondering how in the heck did Jack know Boone was out there AND needed to be rescued. When Charlie shouts to him, he says something about a woman, but no mention of Boone. Very weird IMHO.
And the twin gemini thing. Interesting.
Unlocke Locke, I was thinking about the white tennis shoe in the pilot too. Some have speculated that for smokey to create havids he needs to scan people. If Jack was scanned after running from the cockpit incident, and perhaps the glimpse of that odd shoe hanging in the tree was in Jack's mind, that could be how it got into the havid. I'm sure Christian didn't wears those shoes with that suit!
I also noted the coincidence that when Jack was a boy and his dad was telling him he didn't have it, at some point he says to Jack--you can't save the entire group, or something like that. So perhaps Jack's need to save all the losties comes from that, and Jack is now saying "Don't tell me what I can't do."
And I still think the easy, comfortable way Jack and Kate relate is strange, as if they've met in another time, another place.... but that's a different thread.
Darkrogue
06-23-07, 11:07 AM
Oh, yeah. Our first bona fide Jackback. Before I had learned to dread them utterly. :D
Cool observations, Ida Monster.
Sayid's intuition correctly tells him that Sun understands the English language.
I noticed this as well. His training I expect has taught him to notice subtleties that reveal such things? I wonder why they never addressed this again?
I totally missed the elephant, and would not have made that connection. Good catch.
He smiles and seems almost happy while predicting the riots and chaos of the rest of the survivors when they discover the drinking water is stolen.
Heh. I noticed this, too. He seems to have a strange fascination with that potential bedlam.
:lol: at SBSSG. They never did give that woman any lines, did they? Nope, but Pikki sure got them. Oi. :rolleyez:
Did Charlie learn to swim after so many days on the island?
I think he already knew how to swim. We saw him learning in his flashback (GH). He can swim, just not very well (hence the line “I don’t swim" as opposed to "I can't swim"). Charlie’s issue is that he doesn’t like to swim, due to some deep-seated fear of drowning. He simply fears water and has little confidence in himself.
Plus, he might very well be high out of his gourd at that moment, compounding his hesitation to try saving her.
Other general observations:
Did anyone else find it odd that, in the flashback in which he tries to help his friend, child-Jack is wearing a very similar shirt to the one Charlie is wearing on the island? This is shown just before Charlie informs Jack of the drowning woman and says he doesn’t swim. Is this coincidence, or intended to emphasize the contrast between them (Jack’s past heroics vs Charlie’s present cowardice)?
The Jin and Sun interactions are consistently interesting. I like how she is continually trying to push Jin into accepting that they need to work with the other survivors. Why is he so insistent that they remain as isolated as possible? I wonder if she would have revealed to him her ability to speak English if he had been more open to her idea of trying to communicate with the rest of the castaways. Or would she have communicated secretly (like she winds up doing anyhow) and left him wondering how she did it? I’m assuming the latter.
Already they’re dropping the ‘Jack-can’t-let-people-go’ anvil with Jack beating himself up over Joanna. :)
It’s interesting to note that when I first saw this episode, I disliked Christian and found his lecture to young Jack very condescending. Now, it makes more sense: he shouldn’t obsess upon saving everyone and fixing everything, but be happy for what he can do. Jack takes everything to heart to the point where it’s as though he’s doing it for himself more than others. Thus, he runs the risk of being blinded as to what’s really best for the people he is attempting to save. His view of the overall picture becomes blurred. We will see this grow more problematic later through his efforts with Boone later in this season, and steadily gets worse further on in the series. He almost becomes a Captain Ahab-like figure.
Boone: “Who appointed you our savior?” I had to quote that. No particular reason.
More suggestions toward Kate and Sayid’s leadership potential through Locke. He senses capabilities in others that they themselves do not. We see him repeat this pattern with other characters all throughout the season.
More Hurley/Charlie (they're such a great team so early on--and so hilariously ineffective in their efforts). Also Charlie/Claire. Funny, she seems to appreciate him here. I still think he’s more attracted to the baby factor than Claire herself. I think that’s the reason he gravitated towards her in the first place, though I don’t think he realizes it.
Kate is a badass again. I love the way she confronts Sawyer at his ‘stash’, and the cheesy dialogue in the scene makes me smile. Sawyer is such a delicious bastard. His own, general ass-ishness has made people suspect him of crimes he hasn’t even committed (the water, the asthma medicine, etc). Sometimes I think the guy is a total masochist. For that matter, so are most of the losties.
Of course we can all thank Locke for convincing Jack that he has to lead them. This answers Boone’s question from above. (I knew there was a reason I posted that quote.) :D
Another first is the music when Jack discovers the caves/water. I forget what the tune is called?
Again, Ida, you’re right about Boone. He wants to help and do something useful, but he just winds up pissing everyone off. He nearly gets his ass kicked by Charlie, for goodness’ sake! (Funny how TPTB sort of shuffled on Boone’s role to Charlie in S2).
Of course Jack’s sanctimonious “live together, die alone” speech that will come back over and over. I’ll admit, it didn’t annoy me the first time I heard it. In fact, I actually agreed with him at the time. And I still do, in the context of this part of the series.
ozchick
06-24-07, 01:57 AM
Did anyone else find it odd that, in the flashback in which he tries to help his friend, child-Jack is wearing a very similar shirt to the one Charlie is wearing on the island? This is shown just before Charlie informs Jack of the drowning woman and says he doesn’t swim. Is this coincidence, or intended to emphasize the contrast between them (Jack’s past heroics vs Charlie’s present cowardice)?
I did notice this, and wondered if it meant anything, or was just a quirk of costuming.
A few other thoughts:
Josh Holloway gave a wonderful line reading when Shannon is trying to get the bug repellant from Sawyer. He says he'll take an IOU for her money and then says "Something tells me you're good... for it." That pause and the leer he gave her was classic!
I noticed a line that will repeat later, when Jack finally sees the face of the havid he says "Dad?" before it cuts to commercial. I guess it's not so much a line later, but we see it on the screen when Michael reads it.
I'm keeping a running tally of Sawyer nicknames:
Sticks - Shannon
Mr. Miyagi - Jin
I know there's a thread somewhere for things still unexplained, but a big one from this episode is the empty coffin. I've read speculation that Oceanic loaded the coffin to make Jack happy, but never shipped the body, since the paperwork was not in order, but I'm hoping that's not the case. I'd love for it to tie in to the mystery somehow.
Good observations - I noticed the similar shirts and the sound of ice clinking in a drink before Jack goes running off. BTW what's a Havid?????
This episode also opens with an eye - young Jack's - that makes 3 so far: The Pilot (Jack's), Walkabout (Locke's) and this one.
Hodgepodge
06-25-07, 05:38 PM
"I had a boy on my table today. I don't know, maybe a year younger than you. He had a bad heart. It got real hairy, real fast. Everybody's looking at your old man to make decisions. And I was able to make those decisions because at the end of the day, after the boy died, I was able to wash my hands and come home to dinner. You know, watch a little Carol Burnett, laugh till my sides hurt. And how can I do that, hmm? And even when I fail, how do I do that, Jack? Because I have what it takes. Don't choose, Jack, don't decide. You don't want to be a hero, you don't try and save everyone because when you fail. . . you just don't have what it takes." This is the little story Christian tells young Jack after the latter gets into that fight.
I've always viewed this dialog differently than most. I think Christian was explaining to Jack that the only way he makes it through a day is by drinking. Numbing his senses. Remember, he pours himself a little drink right before the story and when he mentions 'you don't have what it takes', he tips the glass. We find out later, Christian is an alcoholic. IMO, he's telling Jack don't become a drunk like your dad. Because making life and death decisions will drive you to drink.
"When the others find out the water's gone it's going to get ugly. And when they find out that someone pinched it, it's going to get uglier. I'll go. Camp needs you two here, especially with the doctor gone. And besides, I know where to look." Locke speaks this dialog to Sayid and Kate when the water disappears. I've underlined a very important piece of that dialog, which I'd like to discuss.
Remember, Locke goes out and saves Jack from falling off a cliff. Was this the result of a HAVID? This was right when Locke started his journey amongst the survivors cleansing them of their problems. He also convinced Jack to become the Leader of the group. Did he see all this before?
belindalulu
06-25-07, 07:59 PM
What is a HAVID?
That was my question and I just figured it out! "Hallucination/Vision/Dream". There is a Lost board dictionary thread over on the left hand side, very helpful!
belindalulu
06-25-07, 09:17 PM
Thank you :)
Hodgepodge
06-25-07, 11:50 PM
That was my question and I just figured it out! "Hallucination/Vision/Dream". There is a Lost board dictionary thread over on the left hand side, very helpful!You're getting good aren't you Catnap! :nanabobo:
You're getting good aren't you Catnap! :nanabobo:
You know it! Coming here constantly helps quite a bit...and here I thought I wouldn't visit as much during hiatus :)
"When the others find out the water's gone it's going to get ugly. And when they find out that someone pinched it, it's going to get uglier. I'll go. Camp needs you two here, especially with the doctor gone. And besides, I know where to look." Locke speaks this dialog to Sayid and Kate when the water disappears. I've underlined a very important piece of that dialog, which I'd like to discuss.
Remember, Locke goes out and saves Jack from falling off a cliff. Was this the result of a HAVID? This was right when Locke started his journey amongst the survivors cleansing them of their problems. He also convinced Jack to become the Leader of the group. Did he see all this before?
I didn't put it together before you mentioned it. It was said after Locke "looked into the eye of the Island." What did Locke see? I think it was fairly obvious he was lying when he said he didn't see Smokey.
I also noticed how much faith the other Losties put in Locke, it was said a couple of different times this early on that if there's one guy that's going to save us all-it's Locke.
At this point, he's already established himself as the sage and savior. I wonder if Jacob was guiding Locke this whole time. I'm sure Locke could've tracked Jack, but still completely not sold on this idea.
Thoughts?
I hate posting after my own post, but I noticed something this time and want to know if anyone else did too.
Jack goes running through the jungle after Christian, there's a lot of bird/animal noise around. The shot is Jack kind of turning and frantically looking, as he turns around, behind him there's a clearing and an obvious mist/smoke (I think more mist) moves in over the path from both sides, then Jack turns back around to find Christion right in front of him.
Anyone else catch that?
All of this happens right before Jack lunges at Christian and goes right over the cliff. I never noticed before.
Also, where's Third Eye? There was a lot of really weird sounds in that scene, I wondered if he caught anything in that scene...
I thought Locke said I know where to look, cause he was supposed to be this great hunter/tracker, so he just had the skills to find Jack. But Hodge, your idea that Locke is there to possibly help the losties work through their problems is a good one. That's when he was strong and confident. Then of course he loses faith and someone else has to step in and help him.
Hodgepodge
06-26-07, 04:44 PM
I didn't put it together before you mentioned it. It was said after Locke "looked into the eye of the Island." What did Locke see? I think it was fairly obvious he was lying when he said he didn't see Smokey.
I also noticed how much faith the other Losties put in Locke, it was said a couple of different times this early on that if there's one guy that's going to save us all-it's Locke.
At this point, he's already established himself as the sage and savior. I wonder if Jacob was guiding Locke this whole time. I'm sure Locke could've tracked Jack, but still completely not sold on this idea.
Thoughts?
I thought Locke said I know where to look, cause he was supposed to be this great hunter/tracker, so he just had the skills to find Jack. But Hodge, your idea that Locke is there to possibly help the losties work through their problems is a good one. That's when he was strong and confident. Then of course he loses faith and someone else has to step in and help him.I admit, to my mind, the word "And" changes the meaning of that sentence. It gives it a sense of knowledge. And afterthought. 'Don't worry, I know where to look.'
This incident of the water was after his encounter with "Smokie" and if I'm not mistaken, the next day or so. Which would give "Smokie" enough time to contact Locke through a HAVID. I'm not saying this is what happened. Just a possibility. :nanabobo:
...Jack goes running through the jungle after Christian, there's a lot of bird/animal noise around. The shot is Jack kind of turning and frantically looking, as he turns around, behind him there's a clearing and an obvious mist/smoke (I think more mist) moves in over the path from both sides, then Jack turns back around to find Christion right in front of him.
Anyone else catch that?
All of this happens right before Jack lunges at Christian and goes right over the cliff. I never noticed before...ZIA, I'm going to watch that scene again. I know for sure Jack's attention is somewhere else, as he looks away. Then when he turns back, as you mention, Christian is standing there.
Third Eye
06-26-07, 10:39 PM
I hate posting after my own post, but I noticed something this time and want to know if anyone else did too.
Jack goes running through the jungle after Christian, there's a lot of bird/animal noise around. The shot is Jack kind of turning and frantically looking, as he turns around, behind him there's a clearing and an obvious mist/smoke (I think more mist) moves in over the path from both sides, then Jack turns back around to find Christion right in front of him.
Anyone else catch that?
All of this happens right before Jack lunges at Christian and goes right over the cliff. I never noticed before.
Also, where's Third Eye? There was a lot of really weird sounds in that scene, I wondered if he caught anything in that scene...
Boo :nanabobo: Hi Zia, hope you are well.
I watched the episode White Rabbit yesterday and I must say I found it to be a very interesting episode.
While I was watching I think I saw a possible sighting and sound of smokie.
I caught the sighting when Jack was chasing his father through the jungle.
At 19m and 25seconds (try and pause to view if you can) there appears to be a blackish (smoke like) image in the distance, and just as Jack passes the tree the blackish image disappears and is replaced by Christian Sheppard. Also listen for a smokie like sound as Jack passes the tree (this can be heard at 19m 26/27seconds). I have paused and replayed this several times and I have become convinced it’s a smokie sighting.
If someone could post some screen shots that would be great, in the meantime I will also try to post some shots.
P.S. I used headphones to catch the smokie sound but I think you can also hear it on regular TV speakers.
Boo :nanabobo: Hi Zia, hope you are well.
I watched the episode White Rabbit yesterday and I must say I found it to be a very interesting episode.
While I was watching I think I saw a possible sighting and sound of smokie.
I caught the sighting when Jack was chasing his father through the jungle.
At 19m and 25seconds (try and pause to view if you can) there appears to be a blackish (smoke like) image in the distance, and just as Jack passes the tree the blackish image disappears and is replaced by Christian Sheppard. Also listen for a smokie like sound as Jack passes the tree (this can be heard at 19m 26/27seconds). I have paused and replayed this several times and I have become convinced it’s a smokie sighting.
If someone could post some screen shots that would be great, in the meantime I will also try to post some shots.
P.S. I used headphones to catch the smokie sound but I think you can also hear it on regular TV speakers.
:D There you are!!!
I was correct in thinking that you would have noticed something.
I was straining to hear if any of the weird noises sounded like Smokey. There were a lot of freaky sounds in that scene that I never noticed before!...not to mention the mist/smoke sighting.
Is the blackish image different than the mist I saw? I'm gonna have to check it out again with your count in hand.
Oh and I LOVED the first vision of Christian standing in the ocean. Freaky!
The rewatch is going SO great! Thanks for all the insight everyone!
Thanks Third Eye for the detailed information.
Zia
MrSocko
06-27-07, 02:17 PM
Rate it here! (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37999)
Hodgepodge
06-27-07, 04:19 PM
So this was the first sighting of "Smokie" and we didn't know it! :nanabobo:
finally got to sit down and watch it... what do you wanna bet that Christain was drinking MacCutcheon? I really want to get a 100ft tv so i can sit an catch allt his stuff lol
MrSocko
06-27-07, 09:52 PM
So this was the first sighting of "Smokie" and we didn't know it! :nanabobo:
Definitely cool. Thats definitely my favorite thing about shows like Lost. I don't want to turn this into a Heroes/Lost debate, but when shows like Heroes raise an issue then resolve it within 3 or 4 episodes, I think the general rewatch value and interest in past episodes declines considerably.
Yay for Lost.
So this was the first sighting of "Smokie" and we didn't know it! :nanabobo:
You saw it!?
I wonder if some of the noises were vague whispers?
I thought I heard a "Ja" sound, but I could have been paying too much attention. ;)
Hodgepodge
06-28-07, 02:05 AM
finally got to sit down and watch it... what do you wanna bet that Christain was drinking MacCutcheon? I really want to get a 100ft tv so i can sit an catch allt his stuff lolScreencap Des02 if you're right. :nanabobo:
sorry hodge, I don't know for sure if I am right but it wouldnt phase me if it was... besides I dont think they even showed a bottle in that screen and I could never get the knowhow of doing screen caps. we can just take a poll and see who thinks it was MacCutcheons lol
Hodgepodge
06-28-07, 09:49 PM
Don't worry Des02. :wave2:
You know, for the life of me I can't remember if we saw a bottle in that scene. It may've just been a decanter. I'll make a request in the specified thread in GD. We'll get to the bottom of this or my name isn't....oh yeah, Hodgepodge. :nanabobo:
ETA: Made that request. If anyone in the thread checks and we've got an answer, by all means post it in this thread. TIA!
ETA2: Clayseason1 checked and it's a decanter. :mad: It was a great idea Des02!
Third Eye
06-28-07, 11:06 PM
:D There you are!!!
I was correct in thinking that you would have noticed something.
I was straining to hear if any of the weird noises sounded like Smokey. There were a lot of freaky sounds in that scene that I never noticed before!...not to mention the mist/smoke sighting.
Is the blackish image different than the mist I saw? I'm gonna have to check it out again with your count in hand.
Oh and I LOVED the first vision of Christian standing in the ocean. Freaky!
The rewatch is going SO great! Thanks for all the insight everyone!
Thanks Third Eye for the detailed information.
Zia
Ok so I was round my friends house today and I was telling her that I had rewatched the White Rabbit episode, and that I noticed and heard a smokie sighting. Anyway I was showing her on her DVD's and I had noticed that the actual frame time that I noticed smokie was different. The frame timing was 20mins 15/16secs. You can also hear the smokie like sound as Jack passes the tree (20mins 17secs) and sees his father with his back turned.
I wonder if I have a different version of season 1, strange.
Did anyone else notice that when Jack is sitting by the fire (after Locke saved him from the cliff) and we hear the "clinking of ice in the glass" sound, you can also see Christian move behind Jack? Jack doesn't see him, just hears him. Because he doesn't see Christian he doesn't know which way to follow, kinda goes in a different direction, -- then comes upon the water falls.
I've read that some people think smokey Christian vision tried to lead Jack to his death over the cliff (I agree), but also helped him find water (disagree). I'm thinking Jack finding water was the island intervening. The island guided Jack to the water, smokey/Christian tried to guide Jack away from it. It could be just coincidence that Jack found the water, but then as Locke says, don't mistake coincidence for fate.
Hodgepodge
07-02-07, 06:28 PM
Did anyone else notice that when Jack is sitting by the fire (after Locke saved him from the cliff) and we hear the "clinking of ice in the glass" sound, you can also see Christian move behind Jack? Jack doesn't see him, just hears him. Because he doesn't see Christian he doesn't know which way to follow, kinda goes in a different direction, -- then comes upon the water falls.
I've read that some people think smokey Christian vision tried to lead Jack to his death over the cliff (I agree), but also helped him find water (disagree). I'm thinking Jack finding water was the island intervening. The island guided Jack to the water, smokey/Christian tried to guide Jack away from it. It could be just coincidence that Jack found the water, but then as Locke says, don't mistake coincidence for fate.So Bella, you're saying the manifestation of Christian moves behind him in that scene? I didn't notice it, but I'll look again. I do remember the sound of ice clicking in a glass caused him to turn around. And, following that sound caused him to find the fresh water cave.
You know, since the beginning of the series there's been speculation there are two entities patrolling the island. For sake of argument, one good and the other bad.
One led Locke to the Swan hatch, and the other took away his mobility which in turn caused Boone's death. And, as you mention, one tried to kill Jack while the other led him to fresh water. Is one "Smokie" and the other Jacob?
Yes Hodge, that's definitely what I'm saying. I'm curious if you see it too. And I'm in agreement there's two forces, although I was leaning toward the theory that the visions are smokey trying to do the losties in and the dreams are the island trying to send the losties in the right direction. With this shot of Christian moving behind Jack, well, I don't know what to make of it since Jack really never sees it. Does that still make it a vision?
Hodgepodge
07-03-07, 02:09 AM
...And I'm in agreement there's two forces, although I was leaning toward the theory that the visions are smokey trying to do the losties in and the dreams are the island trying to send the losties in the right direction...I'd be willing to go along with this theory with a list of who/what did what? If that makes any sense? :confused:
Oh, and where does Jacob fit into this if anywhere?
lostierebel
07-04-07, 06:47 PM
Yes Hodge, that's definitely what I'm saying. I'm curious if you see it too. And I'm in agreement there's two forces, although I was leaning toward the theory that the visions are smokey trying to do the losties in and the dreams are the island trying to send the losties in the right direction. With this shot of Christian moving behind Jack, well, I don't know what to make of it since Jack really never sees it. Does that still make it a vision?
Bella, I agree with your theory. I'm wondering though if Jacob is somehow controlling/influencing the "good" things that happen to the Losties via their dreams.
I'd be willing to go along with this theory with a list of who/what did what? If that makes any sense? :confused:
Oh, and where does Jacob fit into this if anywhere?
Hodge, maybe Jacob is using his powers to affect things on the island, especially as it relates to the survival of certain Losties. Perhaps he's hoping or even envisioning that one of the Losties will be able to help him or free him one day.
Hodge, maybe Jacob is using his powers to affect things on the island, especially as it relates to the survival of certain Losties. Perhaps he's hoping or even envisioning that one of the Losties will be able to help him or free him one day.
It's so hard to NOT think Jacob could be manipulating events or assisting certain aspects of the Losties experiences, because now we've seen the existance (?) of Jacob and know he has some kind of power-real or imagined.
I didn't put it together before you mentioned it. It was said after Locke "looked into the eye of the Island." What did Locke see? I think it was fairly obvious he was lying when he said he didn't see Smokey.
At this point, he's already established himself as the sage and savior. I wonder if Jacob was guiding Locke this whole time. I'm sure Locke could've tracked Jack, but still completely not sold on this idea.
Thoughts?
Along these lines ZIA, I thought it was an interesting parallel when Locke was talking to Jack about his vision...and Locke says something to the effect of "Jack, isnt it possible that you really are seeing your dad. Maybe the island knows what you are looking for and it brought it to you....." This really adds some evidence to my crazy idea that the island did indeed show Locke the future, and Locke also saw that his dad would be on the island cuz his dad is "the one thing Locke is looking for also".
The idea that Jacob is controlling all of this is very, very intriguing.
Did anyone else notice that when Jack is sitting by the fire (after Locke saved him from the cliff) and we hear the "clinking of ice in the glass" sound, you can also see Christian move behind Jack? Jack doesn't see him, just hears him. Because he doesn't see Christian he doesn't know which way to follow, kinda goes in a different direction, -- then comes upon the water falls.
I've read that some people think smokey Christian vision tried to lead Jack to his death over the cliff (I agree), but also helped him find water (disagree). I'm thinking Jack finding water was the island intervening. The island guided Jack to the water, smokey/Christian tried to guide Jack away from it. It could be just coincidence that Jack found the water, but then as Locke says, don't mistake coincidence for fate.
1)interesting play on words...Jacks Dad's "drink" inevitably led to the Losties finding "drinking water".
2)I have no evidence, but I think that the island was leading Jack to the caves to the water, and not trying to kill him.
This idea of Jacob as being a puppetmaster through his use of Havids, etc is something I need to think and expound upon.....
Hodgepodge
07-11-07, 12:19 AM
Bella, I agree with your theory. I'm wondering though if Jacob is somehow controlling/influencing the "good" things that happen to the Losties via their dreams.Lostierebel give me an example of something "good" that has happen to a Lostie. Then, find something "bad" and name the controlling/influencing entity? This will help with my question of which entity is doing what to whom.
Hodge, maybe Jacob is using his powers to affect things on the island, especially as it relates to the survival of certain Losties. Perhaps he's hoping or even envisioning that one of the Losties will be able to help him or free him one day.
It's so hard to NOT think Jacob could be manipulating events or assisting certain aspects of the Losties experiences, because now we've seen the existance (?) of Jacob and know he has some kind of power-real or imagined.Oh, I think you're completely right.
We've seen Locke being led all over the island in its pursuit to teach. Was this Jacob leading him by the nose? But something was! And, the scene in Jacob's cabin speaks volumes. It asked Locke for help. In a way Ben couldn't hear or understand. It got Locke shot!
Along these lines ZIA, I thought it was an interesting parallel when Locke was talking to Jack about his vision...and Locke says something to the effect of "Jack, isnt it possible that you really are seeing your dad. Maybe the island knows what you are looking for and it brought it to you....." This really adds some evidence to my crazy idea that the island did indeed show Locke the future, and Locke also saw that his dad would be on the island cuz his dad is "the one thing Locke is looking for also"...Maybe this adds credence to my theory that all of the survivors have been scanned by "Smokie". I personally think Jack was scanned while he lay unconscious in the jungle right after the crash. Or, maybe he was scanned the next day or two. But, as you mention, the "Island" knew exactly what Jack and Locke needed for closure.
Freckles+The Best Cowboy
07-14-07, 06:01 AM
So, you all have made some great posts and there's little need for me to reiterate.... and I'd quote but I would probably quote nearly EVERYTHING.... so in short, I agree.
On thing I didn't see discussed: Right after the creepy scene with Christian standing in the surf, the camera cuts to Vincent coming OUT of the water, playing with Walt down on the main beach. Coincidence, or something else?? I would be interested in talking to the theorists that think Vincent is smoky....
And then, sometimes I just think LOST has engineered me to notice the most random things and read way too much into them. :p
Hodgepodge
07-14-07, 10:04 PM
...On thing I didn't see discussed: Right after the creepy scene with Christian standing in the surf, the camera cuts to Vincent coming OUT of the water, playing with Walt down on the main beach. Coincidence, or something else?? I would be interested in talking to the theorists that think Vincent is smoky...Since the first sighting in the Pilot episode, I've felt there's more to Vincent than its sexual ambiguity. Since that first season, we've been clamoring for a Vincent-centric episode. Now don't laugh!
All the camera shots would be at ground level. There'd be no sound, just a bark now and then. I've said it on more than one occasion, no life form has seen more of Craphole Island than Vincent.
Also, speaking of theorists. I've heard "Smokie" needs a body to do its magic--manifestations. I've heard since day one, Vincent died in the crash and "Smokie" is using its body to spy on the Losties.
I'm really interested in this Vincent thing too. Animals are super-intuitive by nature anyway-they just can't tell us what they know-unfortunately.
Good catch about Vincent in the surf. I hadn't noticed. Maybe Vincent is acting as Jack's spirit guide. I mean we do see them both, and only them, in that first scene.
sweetsunray
10-20-07, 11:01 AM
About Christian's lecture, even on rewatch it still makes me angry... Darkrogue you made the interesting observation that in afterthought Christian may not have been wrong about his assessment of Jack... But my idea is that Christian is the one who re-inforced the behaviour, not just of how he expressed his throughts about Jack to him, but as a drunk too. While Jack may have had the innate inclination to help and save people (well he's the son of a surgeon), Jack's home environment (drunken cynical dad and mom backing him up and nursing over dad) made it into a hero-complex.
Thank you hodgepodge for posting that speech, one other thing I notice about this speech is how self-centered/narcistic it is and how inapropriate to a child. I don't mean it's inapropriate to talk about the child that died, but he calls Jack to him to talk about his beating, and starts talking of his work and what he had to endure that day... It's as if he's trying to compete with Jack about who had the worst day. And that an adult needs to compete with a child makes me think very low about him. Christian never recovered from this low from me, not even after Jack beat him at the AA meeting.
Sadly enough Jack has no other role model to be a man. In a way he looks up at his father for being a surgeon, because he can save people, and Christian gives Jack exactly that impression with his speech... I can save people, even though sometimes some die on my table, while you cannot no matter how much you want to. Jack also hates the narcistic drunk side of his father, but is ultimately influenced to see that as a valid option to deal with emotions.
The beating scene also established Jack as highly emotional to me. He's soft-hearted. And Christian confirms he sees that in his son through his speech as well. But he gives it a twist. In Christian's eyes Jack's not man enough because he's a wuss who cares. He may have had more style and did it with words, but ultimately his message is little different from a parent beating his son in order to make him more of a man. Aside from not being a good role model for Jack to teach him how to deal with his emotions, he emphasises the road to duality about it for Jack. So, Jack is imbalanced in his emotional reactions through Christian's teachings... on the one hand he's a cry-baby, on the other hand he shouts and turns cold. The only time when he's in control over his emotions is when he needs to do something that can make him step outside himself.
Also the soft-hearted boy getting a beating by the bulllies makes the Sawyer-Jack contest ironic. As an adult, Sawyer feels he's the lesser of Jack. And Jack fuels this feeling by adding to it with small comments, even in S3 during ping-pong. But when I imagine those two at a playground, I cannot but see Sawyer be one of the bullies who used to beat up the other kids, including Jack. Or at least, I'm sure Jack thinks of Sawyer in that way, and as an adult learned that the tables get turned later in life: the nerd and the wuss end up being CEO or surgeon, while the bully got married with his HS gf at 18 and needs to scrape by (also a stereotype of course).
Although that one childhood scene with his father explains almost in a nutshell how Jack came to be the emotional bomb and wreck he is, the scene with his mother shows another side of the daddy-issues that are rampant in Lost. The mothers are either missing figures, or they back up the bad daddy. We already saw those type of mothers too with Kate and Locke. Kate's mom chose bad daddy Wayne over Kate, Locke's mom helped bad daddy Cooper in conning Locke's kidney, Margot chose to nurse bad daddy Christian over Jack.
If found Boone's response about who appointed him their saviour to Jack ironic. Boone has tried to be that saviour from the start and been shown inept at it: Rose and now Joanna. What I get most out of this is how young Boone still is. He's got the enthusiasm, but not the experience yet.
On rewatch the Christian Vision related to Smokey became especially interesting after what happened to Eko. An yeah at the time we didn't know it was Smokey even. I'm curious to Vincent's sightings related to this as well. I noticed the white steam and the rattling icecubes as well. Although I'm one who thinks that Smokey is not altogether murderous and led Jack to the caves at the end. After rewatch I got the impression that hear to Jack was led away from the group to make his confession about the death he feels responsible for. Initially the FBs it provokes with Jack make Smokey want him to fall to his death, but then in a later FB scanning Smokey can learn that Christian died of alcohol abuse that is older than Jack itself. Hence, he's rewarded with finding the cave. I do think there are two motivations/entities at play with the visions and dreams, and I do agree that Locke may already have had a dream that warns him Jack might get into trouble. In that sense Locke's smile when the group starts to fight over the missing doc and not having enough water may have more to do with him smiling at himself because he's seeing something he dreamt about (he's smiling that his dream got confirmed, which also means he must be special) rather than enjoying the group fighting.
jane_eire
11-06-07, 01:36 PM
mirrors
Funny. I just saw that.^^
LOST Hiatus Rewatch: Week 2, Weds., June 3rd-10th
S1E5: White Rabbit
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/zia29112/LOST%20Stuff/300px-Lost-season1.jpg
World Walker
06-06-09, 03:41 AM
This has been an episode I've wanted to rewatch for a while ever since Christian became so active in Seasons 4 & 5 of the show. Will I glean new insights? We'll have to see...
"I don't swim." - This isn't the same as saying, "I can't swim." We see Charlie swim down to the Looking Glass in his final episode. Could there have been a change in the timeline? Maybe...yet, more simplistically, I believe he had the potential all along. At this stage, I believe Charlie to be in such a state of personal conflict and doubt that he either doesn't believe he can swim or he simply doesn't want to risk it. Regardless of the truth, this is an important quote that holds heavy weight as to Charlie's eventual fate.
Sheesh, Boone sure has a girly scream, doesn't he? Oh, wait, what's that, Boone? Oh, there's a woman out there...likely story... :nanabobo:
"We gotta go back." This has little meaning in any larger context, but I thought it'd be fun to point out this slightly different version of Jack's (in)famous line from the end of Season 3 was first used by Boone in reference to saving Joanna from drowning.
Why isn't anyone else helping Jack? What a buncha gawkers.
"There were forty-seven of us..." Which means, since Joanna's dead, there are now only 46. Who was the first of the 48 to die? The pilot? Doubtful, since he wasn't part of the fuselage survivors. The guy who got sucked into the engine? More likely. Anyone else have any ideas?
"Light, comma, sticks...like those skinny legs of yours."..."Something tells me you're good...for it." Ah, Sawyer! :)
Weird transition between present day and flashback with the ice tinkling in the glass and no whoosh sound.
Christian: "Don't choose, Jack, don't decide." Hmmm, sounds like the exact opposite of what Jacob would advocate, doesn't it? Considering Christian ends up on the island, I wouldn't be surprised if this is an early hint that he might have been used by MiB for his own machinations against Jacob.
Formal Christian sure stands very strangely in the jungle. Almost a bit limp; a bit vacant; very puppetlike. His facial expression is likewise vacant before he goes off into the jungle again. This does not seem to be the same Christian we've seen in Season 4/5. It's almost as if this one is but a shade of the other. It's almost as if he evolves at some point. Does his evolution have to do with MiB or Jacob? Certainly one of them.
I really like the revolving camera effect they had on Jack as he blundered through the jungle, searching for his dad.
"There was an incident a few nights ago..." Sounds like Christian got into a barfight, but could it have been more? I can't quite help it, but my ears perk up whenever I hear the word incident.
All right, so Jack almost rolls off a cliff. Now comes the obvious question: Was that the intent of formal Christian? He sure seemed strategically placed at the top of that steep incline. Was this a malicious Dave-like manipulation in order to get Jack to kill himself? Was it MiB swatting all those pesky humans one by one? Or was Jack just clumsy without Christian necessarily harboring him any ill intent?
Awww, Jack and Locke are having a moment, nearly wrapped in each other's arms.
Jack's crazy laugh amuses me. :nanabobo:
"Seriously, who packs four hundred knives? Personally, I can only have spares for two hundred, three hundred at most." Does anybody else really miss Charlie for moments like this?
Interesting thought. Locke sure seemed like he was advising Jack on how to be an effective leader. Who else have we seen in an advising capacity? Richard Alpert.
That doll in the water = creepy!
"I need to bury my father." This mention of giving bodies their proper burial just keeps popping up on the show. I believe it to be very important to the overall mystery of the Island.
So, the fact that Christian seems to lead Jack to the caves indicates that this was a benevolent visit. Could two powers be possessing Christian? One who wanted Jack to fall off the cliff and the other who wanted Jack to find water in his time of need?
That's such a beautiful composition. What's it called? Life and Death theme?
This episode has grown on me, especially with the understanding I've gleaned from the subsequent seasons. I remember on my first watch of Season 1 thinking how odd an episode it was and chalking Christian up to Jack hallucinating. Now that possibility never crosses my mind. How about that for a change in perspective? :Cheers:
I watched this tonight along with the other 2 epis for this week. I loved this episode. Locke still looks demonic. Michael is a tool. I never liked his character. Christian led Jack to the water source. Jack cries yet again.
When Boone dives into the water to attempt to rescue Joanna, Jack in turn attempts to rescue him, and therefore they both fail to rescue her. Later when Boone attempts to speak to Jack, Jack doesn't want to talk about it. Boone insists that he didn't need saving, that he would have been OK, but Joanna was drowning. Jack should have concentrated on her. But Jack tells Boone that HE was the one drowning. Jack says that neither of them saved her, not just him, and walks off again.
Boone: You think you're all noble and heroic for coming after me ? I was fine. You're not the only one who knows what to do around here, you know that ? I run a business. Who appointed you our saviour, huh ? What gives you the right ...
Jack again sees his father and runs off, ignoring Boone.
The irony of this is that Jack tried to save Boone when he didn't need saving, at the expense of Joanna's life. Later, when the Beechcroft fell on Boone causing life threatening injuries, Jack tried frantically to save his life. Boone had to plead with him to let him go.
Boone may have been pretty ineffectual but he was trying to help. Even with the water he was doing what he thought was right to try and conserve it. Jack had basically washed his hands of it, until Christian stepped in and guided Jack to it.
joedeelee71
06-17-09, 03:40 AM
Is the coffin and the plane wreckage that Jack finds in the cave supposed to be Christian's coffin and Oceanic 816 wreckage? If so - how the heck did it get there? I thought there were only 3 pieces of the plane - 1 part, which has the pilot in it and landed in the jungle, the LOSTies on one part of the beach, and the Tailies, on another part. Or, are we supposed to think that the middle part of the plane shattered into many many pieces, and this is one of them?
I'm just watching this scene through again and I'm trying to figure out if the wreckage is actually in the cave or not. Its actually very hard to tell the layout of the cave.
Jack enters the cave, and sees a spring, and goes towards it. Surrounding is trees and vegatation. Is this spring inside the cave? Or does the cave lead out into an outside area?
The wreckage seems to be directly next to the spring, which again may or may not be inside the cave.
If it is inside the cave... that doesn't really make any sense ...
But anyway, there are definitely random parts of the plane spread across the island, such as the two seats at the bottom of the waterfall, for example.
W.W. mentioned the emphasis on burials in Lost. I noticed the
Others don't bury their dead (that I can recall). The dead from
the purge were thrown in an open grave. Coleen was sent
to sea in a boat to the music of Patsy Cline. I just wonder what
is going on that the Others don't put those who have passed on
in/under the ground.
W.W. mentioned the emphasis on burials in Lost. I noticed the
Others don't bury their dead (that I can recall). The dead from
the purge were thrown in an open grave. Coleen was sent
to sea in a boat to the music of Patsy Cline. I just wonder what
is going on that the Others don't put those who have passed on
in/under the ground.
Thats a really good point Annie, I didn't realise that till now. I wonder what Richard did with the bodies in LaFleur. I just looked over the transcript to see if anything was mentioned - Horace did specifically mention that he told Alpert where the bodies are.
Is the coffin and the plane wreckage that Jack finds in the cave supposed to be Christian's coffin and Oceanic 816 wreckage? If so - how the heck did it get there? I thought there were only 3 pieces of the plane - 1 part, which has the pilot in it and landed in the jungle, the LOSTies on one part of the beach, and the Tailies, on another part. Or, are we supposed to think that the middle part of the plane shattered into many many pieces, and this is one of them?
What was in the plane did not remain in the same parts of the plane when it broke apart then crashed. Debris and contents were thrown and strewn all over the place. I could easily buy that some of the sections, which one is irrelevant, would have stuff scattered all over. That is what we see in RL when a plane crashes. I see nothing odd about it. The only odd thing I see is how many people got away with no even a scratch. Now that is weird.
Is the coffin and the plane wreckage that Jack finds in the cave supposed to be Christian's coffin and Oceanic 816 wreckage? If so - how the heck did it get there? I thought there were only 3 pieces of the plane - 1 part, which has the pilot in it and landed in the jungle, the LOSTies on one part of the beach, and the Tailies, on another part. Or, are we supposed to think that the middle part of the plane shattered into many many pieces, and this is one of them?
Hi, joedeelee ! I think that in the footage we see of the crash of 815, as the 'plane breaks up we see scattered debris falling from the breaks in the fuselage, and maybe this is how Christian's coffin comes to be in or near the caves - it breaks open and Christian, now he is back on the island, comes back to life and climbs out - much as Locke did in S5.
Also, I just caught that comment from Sawyer to Kate when she wants to take charge of the water. He gives her the Marshall's badge and pronounces her "the new Sheriff in town" !
Locke 'n' Load
06-20-09, 11:50 PM
The irony of this is that Jack tried to save Boone when he didn't need saving, at the expense of Joanna's life. Later, when the Beechcroft fell on Boone causing life threatening injuries, Jack tried frantically to save his life. Boone had to plead with him to let him go.
This is an interesting point, Ozanna. Twice Jack tried to save Boone and both times it ended poorly. Joanna dies because he focused on Boone and not her, and then he tried, beyond reason, to save Boone from his injuries - to the detriment of himself and even refusing to help Claire during her time of need.
I always thought Jack was feeling guilty about something else completely different, and was trying frantically to redeem himself, or a quality that he thought he needed, and no longer had, by trying to save Boone so desperately. It wasn't about Boone. It was always only about Jack (in Jack's mind), and what Jack needed from the situation.
ITA Zia, why was Jack so eager to save Boone, when he must have known that he had more chance than Joanna ? Plus being a lot closer to the shore. Did he think that he could drag Boone to safety (like the poor old lady who didn't really want to be taken to the other side of the road !) and then go back for Joanna - two birds with one stone. But it was too late. I think Jack thinks that he is the only one he can trust to do anything, no-one else has got what it takes. Funnily enough Sayid said something along similar lines when he went to map out the island. The only person I can trust on this island, meaning himself. So Jack has been trying to dash around and do everything, except for trivial stuff like arranging funerals etc. which the girls can do, and getting more exhausted and stressed. When Locke finally suggests that maybe Jack should focus on the doctoring, and let the people who know how to track, do it, its a relief.
I guess we can thank Christian for Jack's obsession with being so much in control. He has a lot to live up to. And it has made him into a stubborn and pig-headed man.
LostinCoffs
07-05-09, 12:38 PM
OK - So I am a bit behine on the rewatch! I did 5 episodes last night as a bit of a catch up!! White Rabbit was the one I really enjoyed rewatching with season 5 in mind!
I did think that I saw white smoke come into a clearing before Christian turned up with white sneakers on. Is there perhaps a white version of smokie doing good (ie: leading Jack to Water).. Alternatively it could have just been fog..
Also I did wonder - in season 5 when Locke is taken over by AL, his body still remained behind.. When Jack found his fathers coffin in white rabbit, there was no sign of Christians body. Surely given the state of the coffin (pretty intact) the body should have been inside. Is there a resurrected Christian and a "anti Christian" around?
I do agree that i miss the funny little Charlie comments!
Yeah, I miss Charlie too.
AChristianShephard
07-06-09, 10:36 PM
There are a few oddities I am noticing in this episode.
Hardly any music. Just the sound of the sea and waves, sounds so atmospheric in surround sound.
Everyone packs a hairbrush? Like who?
I gotta say, Christians relationship with his son is totally unbelievable and sets up Jack as an idiot very early in the shows life. Their dialogue is a bit rubbish really and sounds like it came from a pen.
So creepy when we see Christian hanging around, this episode was the one that hinted that this show wasn't gonna play ball.
'A leader can't lead until he knows where he's going' - interesting that Locke was very prepared to have Jack running his side of things, even encouraging him.
So Christian led Jack to the water source so that he may prove himself to the 47 that he has the credentials to be their leader, a little helping hand from a father who in life, belittled his son.
WOW!
And 5 years later, FIVE YEARS, we still have no clue as to how and why.
This episode was so so beautiful.
9/10 (even with Jacks crying)
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