Hiatus Rewatch 3 (06/10/09 - 06/16/09)-S1E7:The Moth

[Brian]

This is the discussion thread for the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch - Season 1 Episode 7 , "The Moth"

Written by : Jennifer Johnson & Paul Dini

The original (or as close to original as exists) thread for this episode can be found here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6143).

General questions about the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch can be posted in the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37370).

Episode Description:

Charlie goes into withdrawal when Locke takes his heroin. Jack becomes trapped in a cave-in. Sayid tries to triangulate the French woman's signal.

[catnap]

WOW what a great episode. I will have to give this one a 10 when the polls open! Kate seems REALLY into Jack. I never really cared for Charlie but I have a whole new respect for character and actor.

A little too heavy on the moth symbolism at the end!

Poor, misunderstood Sawyer - I love, love, love him!

Oh, also, Liam's transformation seemed a little too servere - from one end of the spectrum to the other!

[iwanttobelost]

I think I missed something when Sayid was knocked out by Locke. How did Locke know about it? Locke was not with them when they heard Danielle's transmission nor was he on the beach at the time this was going on. I know I should know this but I can't remember.:)

[Darkrogue]

I usually wait for weekend to watch the second episode, but alcohol + insomnia=boredom, so I decided what the hell.

Charlie, Charlie…for the love of all that is good and holy in this world, WHY, WHY DID THEY KILL YOU???!

I’m better now, I do believe.

WOW what a great episode. I will have to give this one a 10 when the polls open! Kate seems REALLY into Jack. I never really cared for Charlie but I have a whole new respect for character and actor.

Oh, catnap. You don’t know how bewildered it makes a Charlie fan to have a Charlie episode and the number “10” uttered in the same paragraph. It has happened so rarely (translation: never) that it frightens most of us, I think. Kind of in the same way walking into the sunlight for the first time would frighten the ugly stepchild who’s been locked away in the basement his entire life.

I'm glad to hear you've discovered a newfound appreciation, and this episode really highlights Monaghan's nuance. But you’re right, that moth symbolism is like an anvil, ain’t it? The moth is a symbol of the character, see! Everybody get that? :thwak:

Still, Charlie is in many ways the ‘moth’ to Jack’s ‘butterfly’, especially in light of the last S3 episodes. The butterfly gets all the attention, while the moth, a stronger creature, is unnoticed in its more important task.

We’ve lost a lot now he’s gone. Not only does he eventually become a sort of link between the rest of the characters, he’s really one of the most, if not the most, visually, thematically, and symbolically iconic figures on the show. His silly black and white checkered shoes denote his moral ambivalence, which each character possesses; his religion represents the most literal example of the concept of faith; his struggles with faith vs. reason and earthy desire—he’s really a walking personification of everything that Lost is about, with an added sprinkling of snark tossed in. ;)

Anyhow…

General observations:

I seem to remember people discussing the unbelievability of Charlie’s heroin withdrawal, and I admit I agree there. Too little, and he seems to recover a bit too quickly, at least on the surface. I think this has something to do with to what extent the network is allowed to show these things. Don't we love the FCC.

Sawyer “moving in” to Jack’s tent and the interactions between Jack/Sawyer and Kate were actually fun here. I genuinely enjoyed each character in the situation. This was before the love triangle became an uncontrollable, multi-headed beast. :)

I loved the first flashback transition: Charlie fleeing the boar overlapped with his opening line in the confessional. Nice effect, and lasting, somehow. It works on so many levels: his confession shows him to be a debauched little womanizing pig, so the boar squeals just emphasized that for me. At the same time, his sincerity proves that he doesn't want to be that immoral person. He's just weak and can't help it when the temptation is there. Hilarious, really.

Charlie crosses himself with his right hand. There were about seventeen hundred threads that popped up over this issue at the end of S3, but at least here we have proof that he does know the ‘correct’ way to do it (Catholicism indoctrinates this into people very strictly, or so I’ve heard). There were several goofy debates on this: there was the argument that it was a film reversal, that it could be an ironic gesture indicative of his misunderstanding of his own faith, or my own, personal interpretation: the poor guy’s dying; give him a break.

Liam Pace. Gotta love a guy who enters a church proudly donning a shirt that says “Music Slut”.
Only, not. :stare:

This guy is only slightly higher than Anthony Cooper on my list of detestable jerks from losties’ pasts. Sure, he never took Charlie’s kidney or pushed him out an eighth-story window, but meh. Zero respect for this guy. As catnap pointed out, the contrast is glaring. He goes from “you are bloody DriveShaft” to “I AM Driveshaft” in a manner that puts Jekyll and Hyde to shame. You could say the drugs twisted him. Still, he gains no quarter from me simply because even before Liam is using heroin, it’s all about him from the beginning. He uses Charlie’s “talent” to gain fame for himself. (“You want to take away my chance to be somebody?”)

Charlie’s been used/betrayed/abandoned by almost everyone he’s ever trusted.

I had forgotten about the stupidity of the presence of bottle rockets in the wreckage (I believe the writers admitted this was dumb, albeit the easiest thing to do). :D Still, it is nice to see Sayid taking an active role in actually planning something like this. He has not been allowed to shine the same since Season 1, in my opinion. I also like how other characters are incorporated into the plan.

Again, nice interaction between Sawyer and Kate. Except for this line: “I don’t feel sorry for you. I pity you.”
When Kate gets off the island, she should invest in a dictionary.

Charlie served as a roadie for his band—even in fame he was low man on the totem pole. Another theme: he screws up everything he touches (spilling the luggage), though he only wants to be useful.

Inevitable Jack Water Moment: Jack tells Charlie to get some water. (I love listing these :D )

Theme of “fixing one’s own mess”—Charlie saves Jack from the collapse he caused. He has at least three near-death experiences in this episode as well. (must edit list)

Shirtless Sawyer. Just had to point that out, for the sake of being shallow. :pant:

“Keep doing whatever it is you do around here”: this line has a profound affect on Charlie, as he’s been made to feel useless in his past.

Interestingly enough, Sawyer seems as though he is prepared to tell Kate and Sayid about the problem at the caves—until Kate is rude to him. Could he be attempting to make a real effort here, only to be shot down, which causes him to revert?

I love Locke in this episode, as his handling of the situation works so well and solidifies a disciple in Charlie. He follows the same pattern that he began when he helped Jack, and will follow that throughout the season with other characters, whether or not they are equally receptive to his advice.

Charlie’s offer to crawl in and save Jack mirrors his offer to swim to the Looking Glass, and hints at his inherent selflessness.

Sawyer and Kate have some great dialogue while they are waiting together for the signal. Jack and Charlie’s dialogue beneath the rubble is also stellar.

Once more, Charlie gets a little praise when he and Jack emerge, but it is Jack who gets the majority of the attention. Surprised? Naah.

Finally, remember how long it took them to get around to revealing who knocked Sayid on the noggin? If I recall, we discovered this somewhere near the end of the season.

Those were the good old days, when we got answers fast. ;)

[11Rooster11]

First let me begin by saying that Charlie was a douchebag all along. Sorry to those of you that now sympathize with him after his death.

Also do you think the three way that he confessed to, was the same three way that we saw briefly in "Greatest Hits" when his brother gave him the ring?

[Ida Monster]

First let me begin by saying that Charlie was a douchebag all along. Sorry to those of you that now sympathize with him after his death.

Also do you think the three way that he confessed to, was the same three way that we saw briefly in "Greatest Hits" when his brother gave him the ring?

It's very much possible. It shows us just how pathetic Charlie felt about himself.. the only person who would listen to him brag about "his" sexual exploits and fame was a captive audience in the confines of a Catholic confessional. Poor Charlie... the priest probably had a more randy life.

Now onto a few notes of my own about this episode:

Michael was in construction for 8 years. Hmmm.. maybe Widmore Construction Co.? There's been speculation that Widmore may have been a contractor that built the "hatches" on the island. (TLE?)
Liam has broken away from DriveShaft and is on the straight and narrow. Maybe he had gotten a 'respectable' job as a programmer of musical codes.
Just a coincidence, but I noticed a very slight similarity of the Cave to the Swan Hatch.. where as they both have an entrance/exit in the side and at the top.
The Cave scenes were filmed on a sound stage and this was a little more noticeable in this episode. Less so than in "House of the Rising Sun". In that episode I was completely convinced that it was filmed on location. Bravo to the set decorators, lighting and sound effects crew.
I don't think that the coincidental resemblence that I noted in #3 anything to do with the fact that the Swan Hatch set was built on the same stage in place of the Cave set. They most likely demolished the Cave set completely without using any existing framing.
it looked a little peculiar when Jack and Charlie abruptly popped up behind everyone like it was a magic act. Magic Box, anyone? ;)

[Darkrogue]

First let me begin by saying that Charlie was a douchebag all along.

Thoughtful, well-substantiated and profound.

I like that in a post.

Also do you think the three way that he confessed to, was the same three way that we saw briefly in "Greatest Hits" when his brother gave him the ring?

To answer your question, no.

It could not have been the same women. The situation he was ‘bragging’ about in the confessional occurred before the band had even secured a recording contract (at least to Charlie’s knowledge). This incident was something that happened before the band received their break, before Liam was addicted to heroin, and before they even began touring.

The scene in GH occurred during a tour in Finland. Liam admitted he was a mess and that Charlie was not (yet), going so far as to call Charlie the “only drug-free rock star in the world”. This implies that Liam was hooked on heroin by this time—thus, the reason he passed on his heirloom to his brother.

[Ida Monster]

Thoughtful, well-substantiated and profound.

I like that in a post.



To answer your question, no.

It could not have been the same women. The situation he was ‘bragging’ about in the confessional occurred before the band had even secured a recording contract (at least to Charlie’s knowledge). This incident was something that happened before the band received their break, before Liam was addicted to heroin, and before they even began touring.

The scene in GH occurred during a tour in Finland. Liam admitted he was a mess and that Charlie was not (yet), going so far as to call Charlie the “only drug-free rock star in the world”. This implies that Liam was hooked on heroin by this time—thus, the reason he passed on his heirloom to his brother.

Ah.. with that proof I agree, but I still believe Charlie was making it all up out of pathetic desperation.

[Darkrogue]

Ah.. with that proof I agree, but I still believe Charlie was making it all up out of pathetic desperation.

Why would he make it up? What need would he have to do so?

Regardless of anyone’s opinion of Charlie as a character, it has been shown that he is capable of charming women when he wishes. He was easily able to enchant his mark in Homecoming (Lucy, I think) into taking him home with her. It was only when he was caught with the stolen cigarette case that she recognized the con for what it was.

That aside, as Charlie stated in the confession booth, sex and temptation come along with the territory of being associated with a band. Guys in bands get laid. Sure, the women who lay them are skanks, but it happens.

And I’m not sure why anyone would necessarily perceive his confession here as ‘bragging’. This scene takes place before he has been completely corrupted. Charlie’s faith has obviously been an important part of his life. Catholicism ingrains a sense of guilt into its faithful, and one of the chief reasons a person attends confession springs from a need to absolve oneself of wrongdoing. He confesses this because he feels compelled to do so, out of guilt. If it was a matter of bragging, he would just brag to his brother.

Why do you think he was so reluctant to step off that cliff into the rock-star lifestyle to begin with? He was not comfortable with the idea of continuing down that path, and it took Liam’s coaxing to prod him into it.

His braggart persona did not emerge until he became consumed with that lifestyle.

Throughout the series, Charlie has demonstrated that he possesses a strong moral sensibility and a very deep-seated conscience. The confession-booth scene is nothing more than an extension of that. He confesses simply because he feels badly for his actions. It is not until he is swept up within the blinding whirlwind of addiction and self-perceived fame that he loses sight of the humble person he once was.

[Ida Monster]

Why would he make it up? What need would he have to do so?

Regardless of anyone’s opinion of Charlie as a character, it has been shown that he is capable of charming women when he wishes. He was easily able to enchant his mark in Homecoming (Lucy, I think) into taking him home with her. It was only when he was caught with the stolen cigarette case that she recognized the con for what it was.

That aside, as Charlie stated in the confession booth, sex and temptation come along with the territory of being associated with a band. Guys in bands get laid. Sure, the women who lay them are skanks, but it happens.

And I’m not sure why anyone would necessarily perceive his confession here as ‘bragging’. This scene takes place before he has been completely corrupted. Charlie’s faith has obviously been an important part of his life. Catholicism ingrains a sense of guilt into its faithful, and one of the chief reasons a person attends confession springs from a need to absolve oneself of wrongdoing. He confesses this because he feels compelled to do so, out of guilt. If it was a matter of bragging, he would just brag to his brother.

Why do you think he was so reluctant to step off that cliff into the rock-star lifestyle to begin with? He was not comfortable with the idea of continuing down that path, and it took Liam’s coaxing to prod him into it.

His braggart persona did not emerge until he became consumed with that lifestyle.

Throughout the series, Charlie has demonstrated that he possesses a strong moral sensibility and a very deep-seated conscience. The confession-booth scene is nothing more than an extension of that. He confesses simply because he feels badly for his actions. It is not until he is swept up within the blinding whirlwind of addiction and self-perceived fame that he loses sight of the humble person he once was.

I know enough about Catholicism, as I was raised as one. I remember confession... most of the time I made it up to appease the insistent priest. To me Charlie came off as insincere while in confession. He's pretending.

Why brag to his brother? Liam would know that his "baby brother" was full of it. I'm not proclaiming Charlie was a saint, but IMHO I don't think he exhibited bohemian behaviour, nor did he really want it. I think he was in it for the music during this time of the confession, prior to his temptation into the lifestyle. Unfortunately, I can't cite examples at the moment to back up my opinion as I'm posting from work. I'm going to watch "the Moth" again, and "Homecoming" as well for more insight.

[11Rooster11]

Thoughtful, well-substantiated and profound. I like that in a post.

Mearly commenting on my least favorite Lostie not your earlier post. If you appreciate Charlie; then good for you.

Personally I think the guy is a loser. Killing Ethan was the mindless act of someone with no regard for the other crash survivors. Think of the information Sayid could have obtained; But Charlie selfishly wants revenge for his own humiliation at Ethan's hand and wants to impress Claire. Well done Charlie!

While his drug situation is regretable and locating the Drug Plane is a cruel twist, that doesn't excuse his behavior.

His actions with Claire and Aaron are those of a degenerate. The decision to team up with Sawyer to steal guns was another of his selfish choices. Driven again by the desire for revenge against Locke he stages an attack on Sun to facilitate Sawyers little plan. He only admits to his involvement when backed into a corner. Doesn't seem like a good Catholic to me.

I know that there are many people in here that agree with this, there are others who enjoyed Charlie all along, and still there are others that now like Charlie following his noble death.

I will not miss Charlie (the Losties are better off without him IMHO).

[catnap]

Regarding the threesome discussion, I thought this was some foreshadowing (which I put in Darhma for One's football game post {in WIT, should probably be moved to GD or Arcade?} to get points) - once I realized it was 2 different times per an earlier post, it seems like the first time he feels so guilty that he feels he should leave the band over it. Then when we see him on tour later, same "relations" taking place, no guilt to be seen. Seems like his morals and guilt disappeared.

ETA: It was Darkrogue's post that showed it was 2 different times

[Hodgepodge]

I'll rewatch this episode over the weekend. I will tell everyone this. After watching this episode the first time, I became a Jater. :nanabobo:

[Unlocke Locke]

I agree with the post above, we were never clued into when Locke knew about Sayid's trangulation plan. Locke was in the jungle killing stuff...lol and using Charlie as bait. Who told Locke about their trek?

It is fairly obvious in this episode that Kate is very fond of Jack and visaversa. I agree with you Hodgepodge, but she also is intrigued by Sawyer as the bad boy sort of thing. I think she likes them both in a different way. Is there such a thing as a jskater? lol

How did Jack know that Charlie is a junkie?

[ozanna]

Unlocke Locke - I think Jack sussed out Charlie as a junkie by his agitation, sweating, paleness etc. He is a doctor so he should have a rough idea about these things ! His dad was an alcoholic.

Darkrogue - as usual you said most of what I wanted to say but better ! Poor Charlie, what a well meaning klutz ! He's such a doormat ! I'm really going to miss him.

Kate sure is fond of Jack, but I'm not too sure if her feelings are reciprocated. Jack is already treating her with a fair amount of contempt.

But then she is treating Sawyer just as badly. Ok, I know he asks for it but he really has no idea how to treat women properly.
"I don't feel sorry for you. I pity you", yeah, classy bit of writing there !

I can really understand why he didn't tell Sayid and Kate about the cave-in.
I'm sure he was going to but her rudeness and hostility to him put paid to that. "Are you seriously comparing yourself to Jack ?" Um....in view of what we now know, yes, with good reason I think !

I found the scene at the end with Kate scrabbling away at the rocks a bit disturbing - not quite sure why. I had this vague feeling that she would be the only one digging and Jack would be standing behind her saying "What the hell are you doing !"

Just to be totally shallow, I agree, Sawyer should never wear a shirt, that way they won't wear out too quickly ! If you've got it, flaunt it, I always say !

[Darkrogue]

Mearly commenting on my least favorite Lostie not your earlier post. If you appreciate Charlie; then good for you.


No worries. Liking or disliking a character is certainly a matter of opinion. I've got characters I can't stand, myself. And at least you endeavored to support your position this time, so that much is appreciated. ;)

I still don’t get why everyone else on the island gets a free pass or at least sympathy for his or her past and on-island behavior while Charlie continues to be trashed for every single thing he’s ever done. His crimes are in no way worse than those of, say, Kate, Sawyer or Sayid’s, and yet I rarely see these characters brought to task so harshly for their actions.

That said, in no way do I think his actions should be disregarded. I myself have admitted that he is weak and a dumbass. One of his biggest problems is his refusal to accept responsibility for his behavior. I simply do not understand why people have always been so quick to bash him (and only him), often going out of their way and even ignoring evidence in order to slam him.

I have to wonder if part of the reason for this can be credited to his vulnerability. He encompasses qualities that modern society (especially American culture) does not value in males. Physically, he is small and relatively weak; he possesses low self-esteem, he is a character ruled by his emotions, and he comes off as vulnerable and needy. I think this might be the reason why many, especially male, viewers, are put off by him: he makes them feel uncomfortable.

Ironically, these characteristics were what drew me to like him in the first place. I am personally uninterested in the typical “alpha male” type characters, and the qualities Charlie exhibits make him feel more human to me. (I find the former types rather dull, personally.)

But, to each his own.

His actions with Claire and Aaron are those of a degenerate.

I have to disagree there. If nothing else, Claire is the one person with whom he has proven not to be a degenerate. He has never once attempted to get into her pants, and more than once he has put himself in danger for her sake. She is the one person towards whom his actions have been consistently selfless (Claire and Aaron both).

I personally feel as though he was initially more attracted to the baby/family prospect than Claire herself. I think Claire was the accessory that came with the child, but the baby was the initial lure for him. I especially think this is the case considering his reaction to his newborn niece. The way he looks wistfully at the child reflects the longing of a person who desperately wants a family. Remember, he possesses serious abandonment issues, which propels his intense desire to be involved and belong with others. More than anything, he wants a family and child of his own to nurture, and he has been robbed of that. Claire was the first opportunity he had to experience something resembling a “family” situation, so he latched onto her. This is why he grew so protective/territorial over it to the point that it drove him to do some incredibly stupid, irrational, (and sometimes just plain loony) things.

Killing Ethan was the mindless act of someone with no regard for the other crash survivors. Think of the information Sayid could have obtained; But Charlie selfishly wants revenge for his own humiliation at Ethan's hand and wants to impress Claire.

As for Ethan, there is the tiny little fact that the man hung him from a tree. Oh, and there is the part about him threatening to kill Charlie’s friends one by one, and kill Charlie last. That would damn sure make me want to get rid of his crazy ass at the first opportunity.

Charlie has been a direct victim of these peoples’ savagery, and that has driven him to desperation. He has been kidnapped and traumatized, and is concerned about his own safety at this point. I do feel he did it out of protection for Claire to some extent (and even more so the child, as mentioned), but he is also scared to death of this Ethan guy—something he feels reluctant to admit. There are definite survival instincts at work here.

I can guarantee Ethan would not have told them a friggin' thing. He would have lied just as Ben lied, until the other Others helped him devise an escape—which could have possibly ended with disastrous results to the losties. These people have been consistent in that alone. Just consider what happened when they tried to hold Ben prisoner.

The decision to team up with Sawyer to steal guns was another of his selfish choices. Driven again by the desire for revenge against Locke he stages an attack on Sun to facilitate Sawyers little plan. He only admits to his involvement when backed into a corner.


His crime against Sun was admittedly despicable. No one can argue that it wasn’t. I definitely agree that it was selfishly-motivated and cowardly as hell. Even so, he was hardly backed into a corner in that instance. In fact, quite the opposite.

A transcript of that scene:

Hurley: Okay, you know what? I'll go get Desmond. He'll tell you exactly what he saw.
[Hurley leaves]
Charlie: Sun? It was me.
Sun: What?
Charlie: It was me who took you, not the Others. I wasn't myself...after Locke hit me...after he humiliated me. Sawyer told me I could get even by helping him steal the guns. We just made it...look like the Others. I didn't mean to hurt you.
[Sun walks away]
Charlie: [Quietly] I'm sorry.

Charlie is alone with Sun in this scene, and could have just as easily kept his yap shut and shuffled away. He has every opportunity to keep quiet, yet he remains behind specifically to confess what he has done, even going so far as to admit his own selfish reasons for doing it. It takes a substantial measure of humility (and courage) to own up and relinquish one’s pride this way. His actions were reprehensible and ill thought-out, but he is at least man enough to admit to it—another example of his conscience and sense of guilt. His guilt is etched on his face, and he even utters “I’m sorry” when he is no longer within her earshot, debunking the notion that he only apologizes to save face.

His unheard expression of regret is the most solid proof of his sincerity. He is clearly hurt by his own guilt over the incident.

When it all comes down to it, I think the majority of the problems with most of these characters can be blamed upon the writing.

I am definitely not attempting to persuade anyone to like him; I am merely pointing out some details that tend to be overlooked in terms of this misunderstood character. At the end of the day, he selflessly gave his own life for friends who had either ousted or ignored him, a woman who did not love him in return, and a baby that wasn’t even his own. Seems to me he ultimately proved himself a stronger, braver, nobler person than anyone.

Just the way I see things. As I said, to each his own. It is just that when I see him attacked, I feel compelled to at least offer a differing perspective on the character. :)


Ida Monster: Heh. I was raised Methodist, and thank goodness we never did confession.

I agree personal experience lends insights to such things, and I’ve heard horror stories about some priests. I don't doubt that lots of people invent things in those situations. Heck, I probably would too. :D

However, I still do not feel the writers intended it to mean Charlie had made the event up. If he had, I think they would have gone to some effort to show that. If nothing else, the scene in GH validates his confession more solidly. It really does not matter that much, as it is a small detail in a larger picture.

Honestly, I actually think it would be hilarious if he had made the confession up. The more pathetic he is, the more I tend to like him, somehow. :)

The evidence just does not seem to point that way, in my opinion. His demeanor in the confession booth does not come off as boastful (at least to me), but even if he is bragging about it, I don’t think that necessarily means the event did not take place. I feel we would have been given a scene that directly revealed the lie, if such were the case. I simply think that is something they would want us to know for certain, just for the sake of character development.

catnap: Yup, that was the way I interpreted it--a storytelling device, and a plot point to serve as bookends to his story. ;) I always though it was pretty obvious that they were two separate situations, but I can honestly understand how one might think those two ‘threesome’ instances were one in the same.

Hodge: LOL. I for one won’t be offended. Never was much of a shipper, so I don’t much care one way or another. :nanabobo:

Unlocke Locke: I think Jack knew through his experience as a doctor, coupled with Charlie’s own behavior. He seemed very suspicious when Charlie grabbed the Diazepam, and he most likely knows what withdrawal symptoms look like. Jack noticed how badly he looked, and knew something was wrong. He was also clearly very irritable (the damn silly fool caused a rockslide with his tantrum). Plus, when both were down beneath the rubble, Charlie was shaking and sweating and generally looked a right mess. Jack probably did not have to think very long to put two and two together, especially considering how Charlie attempted to palm that Diazepam from the luggage.

ETA: Er, I see ozanna answered the question as well, with some added insight about his alcoholic father. Sorry, ozanna, I somehow missed your post! :awwhug:

Yeah, Charlie's quite the doormat, no? (That's the perfect term to describe him, actually.) He's pretty much used by everyone he trusts I noticed, and always tends to land himself in bad situations. A lot of that is his own fault. I noticed that in every single relationship he develops, it is the other person who is the dominant figure. His brother, his friend/pusher Tommy, Claire, Locke, Eko, even Desmond--it's always the other person calling the shots. He always finds himself in relationships where another has all the power over him.

Just to be totally shallow, I agree, Sawyer should never wear a shirt, that way they won't wear out too quickly ! If you've got it, flaunt it, I always say !

:D :thumbs_up

[Dharma For One]

ETA: It was Darkrogue's post that showed it was 2 different times
Ok, after further review you just scored a field goal! 3 points for the red herring!

I see the story of The Moth as metaphoric, as a modern day Aesop's fable for the entire series vis-a-vis we the viewing audience. Those fans who lacked patience and baled on the series early on are weaker for it, while those who allowed the show to take it's natural course wherever it may lead to are stronger fans because of it, and much better prepared for what is to come. So, when all is said and done with Lost, will the story of The Moth stand out as the most memorable? Probably so, as it's message is certainly the most enduring and timeless.

[Ida Monster]

However, I still do not feel the writers intended it to mean Charlie had made the event up. If he had, I think they would have gone to some effort to show that. If nothing else, the scene in GH validates his confession more solidly. It really does not matter that much, as it is a small detail in a larger picture.

Honestly, I actually think it would be hilarious if he had made the confession up. The more pathetic he is, the more I tend to like him, somehow. :)

The evidence just does not seem to point that way, in my opinion. His demeanor in the confession booth does not come off as boastful (at least to me), but even if he is bragging about it, I don’t think that necessarily means the event did not take place. I feel we would have been given a scene that directly revealed the lie, if such were the case. I simply think that is something they would want us to know for certain, just for the sake of character development.



Now that you put it that way, and so logically, I'll have to agree.
..and yes, it would be hilarious if he was making it up!

[catnap]

I have to wonder if part of the reason for this can be credited to his vulnerability. He encompasses qualities that modern society (especially American culture) does not value in males. Physically, he is small and relatively weak; he possesses low self-esteem, he is a character ruled by his emotions, and he comes off as vulnerable and needy. I think this might be the reason why many, especially male, viewers, are put off by him: he makes them feel uncomfortable.



Darkrogue I think you may have hit the nail on the head! I never liked him much but now I'm coming around a little. Sawyer's still my man though :)

[Hodgepodge]

Well, I finally got a chance to rewatch this episode. It ended up at the bottom of my S1 episode rankings, number 24. :(

This has been mentioned by several posters in the thread, but I too got overwhelmed with the symbolism. But, looking at it using Dharma For One's point of view changes my opinion slightly. :nanabobo:

And the scene of Kate arriving at the cave-in still brings tears to my eyes. :cry:

KATE: Where is he? Where is he?

MICHAEL (?): Kate.

KATE: Where is he. Where's Jack?

[Shot of everyone looking helpless, and they don't want to tell her.]

HURLEY [nodding toward the now rubble-filled tunnel entrance]: He's in there.

KATE: Does anyone know if he's alive? Is he alive?

MICHAEL: We don't know. Charlie went in there through a tunnel that we dug, but it collapsed.

KATE: Why is nobody digging? [she starts digging, the others follow]. And this was with her bare hands. Ain't love grand! :love2:


I agree with the post above, we were never clued into when Locke knew about Sayid's trangulation plan. Locke was in the jungle killing stuff...lol and using Charlie as bait. Who told Locke about their trek?...

How did Jack know that Charlie is a junkie?There were a lot of people privy to Sayid's plan. Kate, Sawyer, Boone, Shannon, and the girl she was talking to when Boone found her on the beach. Any one of them could've mentioned it within earshot of Locke. Maybe he got the info from a HAVID even.

According to the transcripts, Charlie's hand started shaking. "How long has it been, Charlie?" Jack's probably seen the symptoms of withdrawal several times. He even asks Charlie has he started having hallucinations.

[ZIA]

I had the same general observations as everyone else about the Moth.
The Moth for me, was about making choices and moral dilemnas.

Poor Charlie! His moral compass is definately off. It seems as if throughout Charlie's entire life, he has been looking for his own sense of self, of belonging, and during his sometimes painful decision-making proccess he consistantly chooses to look to people for answers who unfortunately end up betraying or using him.

"If you're not in this band, what the bloody hell use are ya?" Liam was lovely, wasn't he? BTW.

Not only that, (which is sad-IMO) He seems to constantly do things to please other people-against his own personal beliefs. This choice always leaves him at a disadvantage for any real personal growth and to know himself.

I do think Charlie finally figured it all out in the end before he died, so I can be okay with his past behavior.

I guess I forgot that Locke was so intent on sabotaging any effort to get rescued this early on in the show. We should have seen the rest coming.
Zia

[Fletcher]

I also really felt for Charlie in this episode. Poor guy. He tries so hard to do things right, starts out on the best path, but things always go wrong. Liam was an awful brother. :mad:

I have to say, the last flashback of the episode really hit me in a different way then before, now that Charlie is gone. He and his brother never had a chance to make things right.

[Darkrogue]

Darkrogue I think you may have hit the nail on the head! I never liked him much but now I'm coming around a little. Sawyer's still my man though :)

:Hugglepounce: Glad you’re able to appreciate him a little more, anyhow. I just wish he hadn’t had to die for these things to happen. :(

I had the same general observations as everyone else about the Moth.
The Moth for me, was about making choices and moral dilemnas.

Poor Charlie! His moral compass is definately off. It seems as if throughout Charlie's entire life, he has been looking for his own sense of self, of belonging, and during his sometimes painful decision-making proccess he consistantly chooses to look to people for answers who unfortunately end up betraying or using him.

"If you're not in this band, what the bloody hell use are ya?" Ian was lovely, wasn't he? BTW.

Not only that, (which is sad-IMO) He seems to constantly do things to please other people-against his own personal beliefs. This choice always leaves him at a disadvantage for any real personal growth and to know himself.

Yes. That’s a huge part of his problem: he doesn’t trust himself to make the right decisions. He is a weak person and he clearly knows it, so he doesn’t trust his own judgment. The guidance he seeks often comes from the wrong places, as you pointed out, and he’s too naïve to see that until it is too late.

Sad thing is, his brother should have been the one person he could trust. I think being “the baby” of the family probably contributed to his neediness and his tendency to follow. Clearly Charlie grew up ‘idolizing’ Liam (as little brothers tend to do). It really isn’t any wonder he trusted him so much. Not that Charlie is absolved of blame for taking the heroin in the first place: Liam never actually pressured Charlie to take drugs—that was his own decision.

I also really felt for Charlie in this episode. Poor guy. He tries so hard to do things right, starts out on the best path, but things always go wrong. Liam was an awful brother. :mad:

I have to say, the last flashback of the episode really hit me in a different way then before, now that Charlie is gone. He and his brother never had a chance to make things right.

I wholeheartedly agree, Fletcher. He usually has the best of intentions, and nothing ever works out for him. He brings a good measure of it upon himself, but it is still sad.

And I agree about Liam. As I mentioned, I have about zero respect for him.
He pressured his brother into a lifestyle Charlie was uncomfortable with. He stood on the shoulders of Charlie’s “talent” to gain personal fame for himself. He marginalized and diminished Charlie in the band, reducing him to role of roadie and tire-changer, then belittled and derided him when he tried to curtail their self-destructive path. After bungling his relationship with his girl, he sold Charlie’s only possession of real sentimental and monetary value for his own betterment, without even considering to include Charlie in his plans of straightening out. As if that weren’t bad enough, he then has the nerve to moralize to him after having deserted him.

Any way you slice it, he used, betrayed and abandoned his own flesh and blood (who trusted and adored him) and left him to fend for himself.

What’s the most insulting is that Liam gets the life that Charlie so desperately wanted and deserved, and will now never have. And the fact that they parted on such bad terms, now never to be reconciled, is just another layer of tragedy piled onto the heap.

[ZIA]

Any way you slice it, he used, betrayed and abandoned his own flesh and blood (who trusted and adored him) and left him to fend for himself.

What’s the most insulting is that Liam gets the life that Charlie so desperately wanted and deserved, and will now never have. And the fact that they parted on such bad terms, now never to be reconciled, is just another layer of tragedy piled onto the heap.
Yes, Liam was...lovely, right? It is all really sad.

[MichaelW30]

I think Charlie has a terrific moral compass, He just didn't trust himself enough.

Even though Locke later gives Sayid an excuse about why he knocked him out I guess it would be safe to say this has to go down as his first island ambush to make sure they stayed there.

[MrSocko]

Rate it! (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38174) :)

[ozchick]

Everyone has great insight in this thread. I found some nice parallels between this ep and the end of S3. The Moth is all about choices, and how our choices make us who we are. Charlie chooses to toss the drugs in the fire. At the end of S3 he chooses to die and save Desmond, because he believes it will help, and because he wants to own the choice.

Interestingly no Claire again in this ep.

Some other thoughts:
Jack says "I wish I shared your faith" to Kate.

This episode marks the first Scott/Steve mix up, made by Michael.

It's too bad they abandoned the alliance with Kate and Sayid. There were some flirtations between them, but they also got things done. Sayid said "I don't trust him with you" meaning Sawyer, to Kate. Not that I liked him much better with Shannon, but it would have been a whole 'nother story if they had pursued this.

Sawyer nicknames:
Jacko - Jack
Mohammed - Sayid
Amigo - Charlie
St. Jack - Jack (followed by Jack himself saying "I'm no saint either" to Charlie)

[Hodgepodge]

A theme that runs through all of Charlie's episodes is a need to look after someone. We notice it first with his adoption of Claire on the beach. He saw in her someone who needed protection, and she was pregnant. He had a ready made family. And, every family needs protection.

This continues with his relationship with Lucy from Homecoming. I'm struck by something her father tells him when he comes over for dinner. He tells Charlie he was also in a band but gave it up. "Well, I was married, Lucy was on the way. Her mom, god rest her soul, wanted me to keep trying, but I was wanting to be more practical, responsible, I guess. You know, a man has to provide, take care of his family. A man has to think about the future."

In Through the Looking Glass, he gets his wish. To be responsible. To do what a husband and father would do in this situation. He gave his life to protect his family. To get them home!

[Darkrogue]

A theme that runs through all of Charlie's episodes is a need to look after someone. We notice it first with his adoption of Claire on the beach. He saw in her someone who needed protection, and she was pregnant. He had a ready made family. And, every family needs protection.

This continues with his relationship with Lucy from Homecoming. I'm struck by something her father tells him when he comes over for dinner. He tells Charlie he was also in a band but gave it up. "Well, I was married, Lucy was on the way. Her mom, god rest her soul, wanted me to keep trying, but I was wanting to be more practical, responsible, I guess. You know, a man has to provide, take care of his family. A man has to think about the future."

In Through the Looking Glass, he gets his wish. To be responsible. To do what a husband and father would do in this situation. He gave his life to protect his family. To get them home!


Oh, Hodge, that is so true. I posted something along those very lines in another thread a while back:




He has struggled and struggled; this sad creature has suffered a life of hardship, self-doubt, heartache, screw-ups, rejection, abandonment and failure. He was used and/or abandoned by everyone he cared about, people who should have looked out for him. He had his dreams stolen from him, and his screw-ups have been consistently met with unforgiving judgment. He is aware he’s let people down in his life, both off-island and on-island. The poor fool knew this, and he was profoundly disappointed in himself to the point of self-loathing.

However, on the island he was able to make friends and meaningful relationships. He gained friends and even surrogate ‘brothers’ who would look after him. Finally, in Aaron (and to a lesser extent, all his friends on the island), his desperate need to take care of someone was fulfilled--even if it meant by his own death. His last act was the one thing he felt he could do for his friends. In this, he felt that he could do something useful, and it was the one thing he knew he would not screw up.

In a way, he got to take care of them all, which was all he really ever wanted: to help others, and to have a purpose.

At least he got what he wanted. It's too bad a bit of selflessness can't be rewarded, though. :(

ozchick, are you keeping up with the Sawyer nicknames in the Things to Watch For thread? Just curious. ;)

[Hodgepodge]

Great quote Darkrogue, and I agree 100%. Tabula Rasa; an opportunity to start over.

And, saving Jack in this episode gave him the status he always longed for, hero! Everything was grand until he and Claire were kidnapped. He couldn't protect her. He sinks back into that abyss of self loathing. Really a tragic character. :cry:

[ozchick]

ozchick, are you keeping up with the Sawyer nicknames in the Things to Watch For thread? Just curious. ;)

I haven't been updating there, but I can. :D

[CLUCK]

a few things i noticed is charlie... charlie is a true hero, even if it were selfish reasons in the past. when he volunteers to go in after jack into the caves and kicking the herion on his own. then in TLG...


i have never been a big charlie fan, but once you put all the pieces together is really is a "man".

[ozanna]

Great quote Darkrogue, and I agree 100%. Tabula Rasa; an opportunity to start over.

Yes, poor Charlie, he was so eager to please and help out.

[Hodgepodge]

Yes, poor Charlie, he was so eager to please and help out.He was like a Boone clone.

[Darkrogue]

Well, I always said he replaced Boone as the "island punching bag". :(

[ZIA]

Poor Charlie.

[Freckles+The Best Cowboy]

I will tell everyone this. After watching this episode the first time, I became a Jater. :nanabobo:

Don't you dare tell a soul.... but I was originally a Jater at this point too... I remained one until about mid season 2.... but we'll discuss that later. We saw in this episode how nicely they fit together, but alas, it turns out they were still on their best behavior with each other.... we see eventually that they'll drop a lot of pleasantries [i think WTCMB is the first hint] and realize that they can hurt each other pretty good too. But yes, I'll agree, they were looking like a nice couple to be in THIS ep, yes?


It is fairly obvious in this episode that Kate is very fond of Jack and visaversa. I agree with you Hodgepodge, but she also is intrigued by Sawyer as the bad boy sort of thing. I think she likes them both in a different way. Is there such a thing as a jskater? lol

I don't think Kate likes Sawyer just yet.... in fact, most of this episode she spends really keeping at odds with him, as evidenced by how poorly she treats him. The tone is that she's just really annoyed at him. She DOES come to be really attracted to Sawyer's 'bad boy' persona, but for now, she's still fending him off.

Of course, I will agree that she enjoys the attention he pays her.... he's constantly making passes at her and though she's slightly repulsed by him: "Do you try to be a pig, or does it come naturally?" She can't suppress a smirk all the while. But then, that's part of Sawyer's appeal, isn't it? quite rough around the edges, but he makes it mighty clear when he's interested. As opposed to Jack, who vehemently denies checking Kate out in HOTRS, much to her dismay.

I agree that feel sorry/pity line was poorly constructed, though I have to admit I got the meaning. As silly as the line sounds when viewed technically, the CONTEXT was way different. Kate made a contrast between the two in an attempt to insult Sawyer, and the delivery of the line did enough to get that across, imo. As in: 'feeling sorry' carried with it a certain amount of caring about the person in question, while 'pitying' them was intended to connote a good deal of condescension.

Also noteworthy: Sawyer tells Kate: "The difference between us ain't that big, sweetheart.", referring to him and Jack. When I first saw this ep, I laughed at the thought. The two couldn't BE more different back then. But Sawyer's line is pretty foreboding.... and watching this ep again, I have to agree with him. He and Jack are QUITE alike.... I would say, two sides of the same coin almost. We can get into that later though..... this episode was about Charlie. :D

Poor Charlie.

Indeed.... Poor Charlie. You know, I never really cared one way or the other about Charlie for the longest time. From time to time, when his episodes rolled around, I felt sorry-- nay, I pitied him [;)] Occasionally I disliked him for one reason or another. However, in light of GH and the finale, I did find that Charlie had grown on me..... and after reading all of Darkrogue's wonderful posts here, I realize I was kind of hard on Charlie all along. So thanks for the insight, DR. I guess I could be counted a Charlie fan. I s'pose I wasnt before because I just didn't quite understand him.

ETA: Dude, I forgot the Dude Tally. :p

Dude count: 7. Dude Total: 19.

[Darkrogue]

Aw, shucks, Freckles. :o

Right back at ya, for your many insights regarding Kate.

That clarification on the “pity” line helps out, or at least helps me get what was very possibly intended. I agree that she does not like Sawyer at this point (she does treat him pretty badly, but he brings a good measure of that on himself). Clearly, however, one thing she does like about Sawyer is his straightforwardness.

[Black Manta]

Charlie could have gotten over the heroin addiction as part of the island's healing process.

Could the moth at the end be Smokie? It seems like it was leading Charlie to safety.

[Hodgepodge]

Charlie could have gotten over the heroin addiction as part of the island's healing process.

Could the moth at the end be Smokie? It seems like it was leading Charlie to safety.In both cases, it's definitely a possibility Black Manta.

According to Locke, he got his mobility back once they arrived on Craphole Island. Same with Rose. She swears she's been cured of cancer by being on the island. Lets not forget Jin, the man with a low or no sperm count who's fathered a child.

Although a possibility, I feel that moth was just that, a moth. It was a way for TPTB to put a nice bow on all the symbolisms in the episode. :)

[sweetsunray]

This is one of my favourite epis. I never had much of a problem with Charlie and felt sympathy with him, even though he was a dork at times and weak. I loved his humor, and I will sadly miss his remarks, that suited my taste more than Sawyer's nicknames.

Wasn't always so fond of his FB's though. Must agree with Darkrogue about Liam. Hate the guy, as much as I dislike Sarah and Christian. Cooper of course is the worst villain. But these three are true hypocrites imo who blame everything on other people and don't take responsibility for their own actions. Cooper doesn't deny his responsibilities, he just doesn't care about it. Don't worry about the non-reconciliation though. I'm sure Liam will be glad that his brother is really dead so he can cash in on the revival of the band on his own. Yuck.

Yeah, I loved it how our non-hero rescued the all-proclaimed hero, very refreshing. I kind of rooted for him ever since, and felt the Losties and viewers judged him too harshly in S2.

And yeah, like hodgepodge, Kate's concern turned me into a jater as well. That was very touching. It was also touching to see the whole group make an effort, including Sawyer.

Kate was too snarky to Sawyer, but I couldn't really see him as misunderstood. He actively had painted a picture to all other Losties that he was a selfish mean guy, even if he isn't. He wanted people to think ill of him so that they would keep their distance, so he should not have been a brat about it when people did think it.

[sweetsunray]

Something, I'd like to add to my thoughts about this epi after rewatch, regarding the leader and sergeant issues. In the previous rewatch epi I've posted how to me Sayid moved away from his sergeant position after disagreeing with Jack on a to him moral issue. This is solified in this episode where his focus is the triangulation and he stays out of any other issues. Sayid has chosen this as his contribution to the group alone, which of course is far from negative (and thus not the point I'm trying to get at), but he stays away from general decision subjects (unlike at the start). But at the end he loses the self-chosen focus where he can be his own boss, by being knocked out and have the equipment knocked out. You could also see Sayid as having gained leadership over one Losty region, the beach.

I remember being curious who knocked Sayid out, and the last I would have thought of was Locke. Seems strange now that Locke wanted to prevent the finding of the tower. Finding the tower would not have helped the Losties contact the outside world, because of the blockage in the Looking Glass, and had Sayid found the tower, Locke could have tried to destroy/sabotage the tower itself before it could be put to use. I agree with the idea that Locke must already be under the influence of visions and dreams. It amazes me that it took me so long to see it that way, where I used to think Locke was acting on his own ideas and reluctance to go back to the outside/real world... which made me incredibly angry at him after Boone's death.

Back on the stepping-away from sergeant position. Kate's decision to stay on the beach and reluctance to move to the caves broke the buddying with Jack and sowed the seed of distrust with him. IMO You do see he kinda feels lonely (as in leaderwise), but for now wants to accept it, and that he's unsure whether it also means losing his best friend and probable commencing romantic interest. Kate's hug and her making a sling for him is a step from her that shows she still stands by his side as the leader, as friend and as definite romantic interest. I also make note of the fact that Kate's helping is intricately linked with romantic purposes, and that to me it's Kate who intertwined the two from early on towards Jack and hence she adds to the difficulty for Jack to be able to separate the two, regardless of his own feelings.

Regarding the beach leader and group dynamics, Kate is Sayid's sergeant as well. Kate has been filling those two sergeant roles from the pilot really: going with Jack to the pilot and informing him of what she learned on the second quest, as well as going with Sayid to pick up the signal. Here, Kate does not intertwine romantic feelings into it, and hence her sergeantship and Sayid's reactions to her could never have been clouded or loaded with it.

Kate is the true helper at heart imo, and therefore will never really be a leader. She does not need coaxing, always the volunteer to help anyone out on a mission, both for the safety in numbers, not bearing the thought to have someone go out there alone as well as to help the group. And this helping attitude of her exists regardless of her need to run, and ultimately supercedes it even as we've already learned with her helping Ray Mullen first. Also helping an individual before the long-term goal for the group takes prior priority. She drops the triangualation mission in order to help save Jack, which of course had even more weight with her because of her romantic interest in him. At least on the island and prior to the island this seems to be her helping psyche. It is therefore quite shocking to have Kate leaving Jack with his request for help to get back to the island by himself. Not so much because her change of heart about him, but because she seems to have lost the one thing that makes her really admirable on the island and in her life before the island.

[jane_eire]

http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3488&d=1194362699

[Cranky]

A question I have about Sayid's triangulation....he said the signal would have to be inside the triangle for them to find it. When he turned on the transceiver, the signal was coming from inside the triangle, but Locke stopped him before he could locate it...

...so, the radio tower was inside that triangle? That doesn't make much sense seeing as they had to trek half way across the island to get to the radio tower in S3. And according to Danielle the radio tower was located in the dark territory, meaning Sayid, Kate, and Sawyer either walked through the DT and didn't know it or conveniently walked around it.

[ZIA]

LOST Hiatus Rewatch: Week 3, Weds., June 10th-17th
2009
S1E7: The Moth
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/zia29112/LOST%20Stuff/300px-Lost-season1.jpg

[World Walker]

And here we go...

Ah, so Sawyer claims Jack's tent when he goes to the cave. Does this become Sawyer's famous tent where he lives for most of the series up till the end of Season 3? Hard to say at this point, but if it does, he'll change it around at some point, because I remember one wall of his tent is part of the fuselage complete with portholes sporting a nice seaside view.

I don't know about anyone else, but it's so weird watching these episodes before the lostie's true camp is set up. I almost forgot about all the airplane wreckage and the large beach where they stayed before they moved to a different spot and created tentville.

"As we live our lives, it's nothing but a series of choices, isn't it?" quothe the priest. Well, well, lookie here; another reference to free will.

Locke was pretty casual about using Charlie as bait. He was also pretty casual about slitting that poor piggy's throat. Ouch!

Locke speaks to Charlie about making choices. "If I did that, you wouldn't have a choice, Charlie. And having choices, making decisions based on more than instinct is the only thing that separates you from him." This episode is very heavy-handed about free will. If that is indeed what Jacob stands for, he would be very proud of Locke in this episode.

Also wanted to note that after all this talk of making choices, Locke turns right around in Season 2 and makes these decisions for Charlie (with really severe results), whether Charlie likes it or not. Quite the opposite viewpoint, isn't it? After the triumphant end result of The Moth in regard to Charlie's and Locke's characters, watching Fire + Water is like receiving a sucker-punch. Could MiB, who doesn't seem to share Jacob's sentiments about people or free will, have played a part in this reversal in Season 2? Worth thinking about.

Jack: "Wanna help me get the rest of those bags?"
Hurley, completely unenthusiastic: "Oh, could I?" :nanabobo:

Hey look, it's Harvard University! No wait, isn't it the monastery where Desmond becomes a monk? Wait, isn't that the place where Eko visits in his flashback in Season 2? You know, it amazes me how many times they can use the same location for so many different scenes and still pull it off. And this is a cool location, too.

What Liam did to Charlie is pretty awful. He basically needed Charlie to be onboard so that he could feel important. He knew if it was only him, he wouldn't stand a chance. Liam's a truly insecure person and his actions make Charlie weak.

Hurley carrying Charlie's guitar case gives me a fevered flash of Hurley from Season 5. Does anybody know if that's the exact same case?

I love how Charlie says, "I'm a bloody rock god," and then the rocks begin to shift, caving Jack inside.

Irony - 1 Losties - 0

You know, Charlie has the uncanny ability to scrape out of many disasters. He avoided the cave-in by a narrow margin and later, in Season 2, he'll avoid the hatch implosion by a narrow margin.

Sayid shouldn't feel too bad about his triangulation plan failing. It wouldn't have worked anyway because the radio tower wouldn't've been within their small triangulation. It was a lot further inland, if I recall correctly from the hike at the end of Season 3.

"We shouldn't have survived." Sayid says this about the plane crash. What if...Jacob allowed a number of the Oceanic 815's passengers to live past the crash. When they fulfilled their purpose, they would be taken by the island to pay their due since, technically, they weren't supposed to survive. At the point we arrived at near the end of Season 5, we've lost nearly everybody from 815. Will we see the rest of them die in Season 6? I personally hope not. How sad! :faintthud

Who else thought Shannon would fail miserably at the triangulation and were completely floored when she did it as instructed?

Michael was actually super useful in this episode.

Locke proposes that struggle is nature's way of strengthening and I think he's right. For those of our Losties who've survived to the end of Season 5, aren't they stronger for what they've had to go through?

The complete role reversal of Charlie and Liam in that last flashback scene is both striking and tragic. The dynamic between those two reminds me of Eddie and his brother, Henry, from Stephen King's The Dark Tower series. Anyone else see this parallel?

And Locke pulls a locke on Sayid. Ouch! Look on the bright side, Sayid, at least he isn't blowing stuff up yet...

I love that last scene where Charlie flicks the drugs into the fire. What a moment! :Cheers:

[Ida Monster]

Also wanted to note that after all this talk of making choices, Locke turns right around in Season 2 and makes these decisions for Charlie (with really severe results), whether Charlie likes it or not. Quite the opposite viewpoint, isn't it? After the triumphant end result of The Moth in regard to Charlie's and Locke's characters, watching Fire + Water is like receiving a sucker-punch. Could MiB, who doesn't seem to share Jacob's sentiments about people or free will, have played a part in this reversal in Season 2? Worth thinking about.

I'm really starting to think that there's been a MiB/Flocke doppleganger has been on the island since Smoky first stared down Locke. "...and it was beautiful."

Hey look, it's Harvard University! No wait, isn't it the monastery where Desmond becomes a monk? Wait, isn't that the place where Eko visits in his flashback in Season 2? You know, it amazes me how many times they can use the same location for so many different scenes and still pull it off. And this is a cool location, too.

Don't forget it passed as Oxford University in England where Desmond visits Daniel. I agree.. so many locations



I love how Charlie says, "I'm a bloody rock god," and then the rocks begin to shift, caving Jack inside.

I enjoyed his delusional outburst entirely. He was strung out so bad he was transferring his anger onto Jack as though he was speaking to Liam.


Who else thought Shannon would fail miserably at the triangulation and were completely floored when she did it as instructed?

If Ms. Redshirt hadn't noticed it, chatty Shannon wouldn't have noticed at all. It's a good thing Shannon's conversational subjects were as superficial as they appeared to be.
Shannon: Blah blah blah blah my nails blah blah blah my hair is impossible in this hot humid blah blah...

Ms. Redshirt: Zzzzz.. oh look! Fireworks!

Michael was actually super useful in this episode.

They actually included his construction trade knowledge.



I love that last scene where Charlie flicks the drugs into the fire. What a moment! :Cheers:


Mmm mmm. Heroin pork rub. Surely a favorite at all barbeques.:D

[ZIA]

I'm starting to see that too, Ida. It seems like it was set up long ago, especially with this years' rewatch. All of the 'Signs' were there from the beginning.

[turiel]

I don't want to jump ahead too much in the rewatch, but in one of the next episodes they show Locke's eyes to be one black and one white. It absolutely seems to be setting Locke up for what we saw at the end of season 5.

However, I'm not really onboard with the theory that there was a Flocke before S5.

Locke, even when he was completely being himself, had a connection to the island. He saw the 'eye' as beautiful - and why not, it gave him back the use of his legs after all.

As far as I'm aware, Smokey only appears as dead people (with the possible exception of Walt, but that might be Walt being special and not actually Smokey). Locke definitely isn't dead until S5. Indeed, Locke specifically had to die, presumably in order for this to occur (although of course thats not what he thinks). The rule seems to be dead = fair game for Smokey.

That's not to say that MiB hasn't been influencing Locke, he has almost certainly been manipulating him.. just I don't think that there were two before S5.

[ZIA]

No, I don't think there were two Lockes back then either, but you really can see the influence that the Island has over Locke from S1.

[ozanna]

I'm not sure what Locke saw or thought he saw, that was so beautiful, but I think it was more what he wanted to see. He had had so many disappointments in his life, he wanted to go to Ayers Rock to maybe find enlightenment and healing, but he couldn't even get there because he couldn't walk. By the time he got on to F815 he had lost all hope, he had been humiliated and just about given up. When they crashed he somehow realized that this was his chance at a clean slate, a new life. All of a sudden he was able to walk again. From now on this was a new Locke, and there was no way he was going to leave that island, but I don't think Flocke had materialized yet. He was full of confidence and knew where he was going.

So Locke looks up while lying on the beach and starts to get his answers. He encourages Charlie to look up and find his guitar case. When Charlie and Jack are trapped in the cave Charlie looks up and sees the moth at the opening at the top.

Why did Kate decide to stay at the beach when Jack decided to move to the caves ? She certainly had feelings for him. She said she wanted to stay at the beach in case a boat went past or something. But there were other people staying at the beach, including Sawyer, so why did she feel the need to stay too ? She certainly felt nothing but contempt for Sawyer ! I didn't actually blame him for not telling her about Jack. He was all set to, but she was so scathing towards him. It was a cheap shot from Sawyer, but he wasn't looking for any rewards !

Locke and Jack's reactions to Charlie's drug problems were enlightening. Locke was all about having faith and making a decision and a choice. Jack basically had no patience with Charlie, told him to go away and have some water and look after himself. Water apparently will fix anything ! Considering Jack himself has had major problems with drugs and alcohol you might think he would be a bit more sympathetic. But by the end of the episode he was a bit more understanding.

[turiel]

Why did Kate decide to stay at the beach when Jack decided to move to the caves ? She certainly had feelings for him. She said she wanted to stay at the beach in case a boat went past or something. But there were other people staying at the beach, including Sawyer, so why did she feel the need to stay too ?

Thats just Kate. I think we've seen abundant evidence that she's scared to get close to people. It was nothing to do with wanting to be on the beach to get rescued. As you say, there's plenty of people there. It's all to do with getting too comfortable with Jack. She repeats this throughout the whole series, flip-flopping between Jack and Sawyer (and indeed between living locations), not only because she has feelings for both, but because everytime she gets too close to one she runs away.

Locke and Jack's reactions to Charlie's drug problems were enlightening. Locke was all about having faith and making a decision and a choice. Jack basically had no patience with Charlie, told him to go away and have some water and look after himself. Water apparently will fix anything ! Considering Jack himself has had major problems with drugs and alcohol you might think he would be a bit more sympathetic. But by the end of the episode he was a bit more understanding.

I think that Jack didn't know about it at that stage. He just thought Charlie looked a bit worse for wear, which yeah probably water will help with in such a hot climate. Now I know Jack asked later how long since his last fix, while they were both trapped in the cave, but I have a feeling he only realised what Charlie's problem was inside the cave when they were in such close proximity for an extended period.

[ozanna]

This is true, Turiel ! Jack distinctly asked her why she wouldn't move to the caves with "him", shelter, water etc., and she responded that they'd only been there for a few days and she certainly wasn't looking to set up house ! So there you go, James, it wasn't just you she didn't want to stay with ! When the tables were turned in "Eggtown" and Sawyer wanted to set up home at the Barracks she went scampering back to the beach to be with Jack !

[Dew]

This was a super episode. Watching Charlie go cold turkey was sad. When Jack asks Charlie how long since his last fix, Charlie had an aha moment. It was great how Locke tells him the story of the moth and then he sees one in the collapsed cave. To boot, the moth shows him where the light is. I know this is wacky but did the island impart that moth knowledge to Locke who passed it to Charlie then collapsed the cave and showed Charlie the way out so that he could get some inspiration? I didn't get that thought the several times I re-watched this episode since its airing but I do now. :hmm:

[turiel]

I know this is wacky but did the island impart that moth knowledge to Locke who passed it to Charlie then collapsed the cave and showed Charlie the way out so that he could get some inspiration? I didn't get that thought the several times I re-watched this episode since its airing but I do now. :hmm:

Its very hard to tell. There are a huge amount of coincidences in Lost.. I can't even begin to list them all. Is it fate, or is it just luck? Maybe some of the big coincidences, like how the survivors are all interconnected one way or another, will be answered... I hope so... but the million other little things, I think its just up to us to guess.

[AChristianShephard]

Whilst not my fave episode, the story telling is again absolutely fantastic.
It's amazing how different yet the same the seasons are. A wonderful branching umbrella of intrigue.

Charlie was truly an awesome character and his episode was told with grace, the spotty skanky piece of ****.

Ahem, do excuse me.

Locke is just so freaking cool aint he? When did he turn into emo-locke?

7/10

Jack is getting waaaaay too much airtime.

[ozanna]

Jack is getting waaaaay too much airtime.

Ain't that the truth :rolleyez:

"If you want to lead you have to know where you're going." :) A very astute comment from Locke to Jack, which I know was not in this episode, but is very applicable to this epi. Actually come to think of it, the whole Series ! :D

[AChristianShephard]

Jack reminds me of myself, focused and determined to follow a particular path whilst alienating all the beautiful women around him.

OH MY GOD I'M JACK!

[Dew]

:no:

[AChristianShephard]

Look, i'm crying here Dew, I'M CRYING!

[Dew]

:awwhug:Please do not cry. There is already 1 too many Jacks in the world and the 1 too many is MF.

[Locke 'n' Load]

ACS, I've read a lot of your posts, and believe me "you don't know jack"! (That is if you believe you are in any way like him!) :D

[AChristianShephard]

LOl thanks, i'll stop looking for attention now, and go and fix something :D

So how come Locke knows so much about destiny and where did the wise old sage aura come from?

We got Christian Shephard running round probably possessed by Jacob, so that he can speak for him.

Where's Locke getting of at? Is he Flocke?
He damn seems to have all the answers at this stage, he saw the island and it was beautiful.

[Locke 'n' Load]

I want to believe Locke has always been AJ (reincarnated), but I then get confused as to all the mistakes he makes. Season 1 we can see the wisdom and life experience, but after that he seems too needy and hurt and disappointed with life because of his own choices and the choices of others.

I just hope Locke comes out better than most people think he will. To me he is a hero, though a tragic one. I will continue to have faith in him until the very last episode of season 6.

:Cheers:

[AChristianShephard]

Same here L'n'L.
I'm wondering if his possession/re-incarnation is only of a subtle influence so the real Locke is still in there trying to get out all the time.

From what we know of him now, there is absolutely no rational explanation for him becoming so yoda like.
Maybe there is a point in the show where we see him becoming abandoned and left to fend for himself for a while.

There's gonna be some major season 1 flashbacks eh, like showing what locke saw when approached by smokie sound alike.

[ozanna]

I think he has to be the hero, Locke'n'Load - he's made his mistakes, sure, but has he made as many as Jack ? Jack's biggest mistake has been self pity and self glorification, not to mention arrogance. Sawyer believes in Locke, too, which is good enough for me :)

[ZIA]

Jack reminds me of myself, focused and determined to follow a particular path whilst alienating all the beautiful women around him.

OH MY GOD I'M JACK!

OH MY GOD. YOU'RE NOT JACK!

I'm keeping my ring, btw. I just LOVE it. I can't believe you bought me an antique one. How did you know? ;)

[AChristianShephard]

Never mind that, you still havn't given me an answer.

:baby:

[ZIA]

Really?

[AChristianShephard]

Zia is playing me like a fiddle :violin:

[ZIA]

I said WHEN, dammit!!! Not now!!!! :D

I need to figure out how to make myself British first. ;)

http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:cPPNqC1VQj3TMM:https://www.harringtonhallworth.co.uk/products_pictures/P34%2520Picchiotti%2520rings2101.jpg

WOOT!!! :love2:

ETA: JC on a bike! Is that for me???

Well, I was going to say Pish-posh, but then I actually looked it up, and I guess I didn't. Yes, but I don't want to live here though. :makeout:

[AChristianShephard]

Ha!

I'm feeling slightly poorly, and have to go to London tomorrow.

I'll think somewhere nice to live for when I get back.

Tibet is on my radar though.
Nights x

[ZIA]

Oh ew! Feel better. Night. :)