Hiatus Rewatch #3 (06/17/09-06/23/09)-S1E10: Raised By Another [Archive]

View Full Version : Hiatus Rewatch #3 (06/17/09-06/23/09)-S1E10: Raised By Another

Brian

07-11-07, 01:24 AM

This is the discussion thread for the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch - Season 1 Episode 10 , "Raised By Another"

Written by : Lynne E. Litt

The original (or as close to original as exists) thread for this episode can be found here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6146).

General questions about the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch can be posted in the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37370).

Episode Description:

Claire begins to have strange dreams and believes someone is trying to hurt her baby. Hurley takes a census and learns someone wasn't on the flight.

catnap

07-11-07, 01:04 PM

Another great episode! This one also opens up with an "eye" shot - Claire's - I'll have to put that in the things we are looking for thread.

Hurley was so funny collecting his info - when Locke tried to make a joke and Hurley looked confused and then said "oh, good one". Also his interaction with Sawyer. My only complaint was not enough Sawyer in this one!

Charlie was great as well - the scene where he admits to being a drug addict to Claire and then tries to backpedal.

2 scenes where Jack yells "get me some water"! One for Claire, one for Sayid. They must teach this in med school :)

thatbutton

07-11-07, 03:42 PM

This episode seems to have some inconsistencies with Claire's backstory. For instance, she says to Thomas that if her mother finds out she's pregnant she'll disown her and Thomas replies that she already has. That seems odd considering that we learned in Season 3 that Claire's mom is in a coma.

Also she talks about her dad singing "Catch a falling star" to her. Maybe he did, but I was under the impression that Christian Shepherd had gotten Claire's mom pregnant and then simply left and had never even seen Claire until the accident. Maybe this is how TPTB will have Jack and Claire figure out that they're half-siblings.

And do we know if it was a dream or real when Ethan (presumably) stabbed Claire with the shot in her stomach and covered her mouth. If it really happened how come Jack couldn't find any mark on her? And why would she have said, "Someone's gonna hurt me." That struck me as odd. You would think she would have said, "Someone just hurt me."

Fletcher

07-11-07, 03:48 PM

catnap

07-11-07, 06:52 PM

And can I just reaffirm how awesome Claire's havid in the first scene is? I love it!

I had forgotten how creepy that was. Is Locke dealing the cards supposed to represent the psychic? Cause he didn't use cards. But the sound effects, when Locke turns the first card, it sounds like a knife being sharpened or something. I replayed to double check.

As for the second incident, I always thought it happened but maybe Ethan didn't actually manage to get the needle in?

Hodgepodge

07-12-07, 01:12 AM

Haven't rewated this one yet, but wanted to state how I loved this episode when first aired. That Malkin prophecy was mind bending. Especially when the pens didn't work. This started the whole, everybody was herded to flight 815 theories.

As my Governor says, "I'll be back!"

Darkrogue

07-12-07, 01:48 PM

I have to say this episode always has me scrambling for the mute button on the remote. Claire’s screeching makes me want to seal off my ears with hot wax.

And you guys are right, that is one freaky dream. Locke’s dialogue in that havid remains intriguing.

Thomas: Yet another winner. It takes about two seconds to discern what an idiot this guy is. Stupid, jerk-ish, and selfish. He’s a “fairweather” boyfriend who bails when Claire needs him the most. Hmm, maybe he should hook up with Liam Pace…

More hints that not everyone is content with Jack’s leadership decisions: Charlie challenges his authority on the validity of Claire’s fears. Yet again, Kate quickly stops the potential argument. She's a good mediator and voice of reason.

Resourceful Hurley: He shows once more how good he is with people. Much like when he came up with the golf course idea, he proves he does have some leadership skills about him. He’s just personable enough to get what he wants from people: their information, the flight manifest, etc. Have to love all the little exchanges between Hurley and the other characters as he goes to them for information (Locke, Boone and Shannon, Ethan).

Craphole Island and Rape Caves: two Shannon gems in one episode.

I find it interesting that Malkin later reveals himself to be a fraud. Still doesn’t explain why he is so insistent with Claire about the baby (calling her in the middle of the night, etc.). He just seems too obsessive over it for it to be something completely fraudulent. I know there has been tons of speculation on this on this very board. Might there be something to the theories that he is involved in a con with the couple supposedly waiting in LA?

This episode seems to have some inconsistencies with Claire's backstory. For instance, she says to Thomas that if her mother finds out she's pregnant she'll disown her and Thomas replies that she already has. That seems odd considering that we learned in Season 3 that Claire's mom is in a coma.

Christian didn't just leave after Claire was born. He said in "Par Avion" that he visited her when she was young, and sang to her.

The whole "my Mom would disown me thing" is a little irksome, though. I can buy that she would want to keep the whole Mom-in-a-coma thing secret (maybe letting everyone think that her aunt is her mom?) but that needs to be explained. Otherwise, it has to go down as an error.

I’ve always felt like they retconned quite a bit in Claire’s story. It seems like they wanted to do more with her in S1, but then let it fall by the wayside as other stories took further precedence. I think this has happened to several of the characters, actually, as the show has become less of an ensemble. I guess we won’t know the whole story though until it’s over.

Charlie was great as well - the scene where he admits to being a drug addict to Claire and then tries to backpedal.

And Claire’s response was perfect: “GET JACK!” :D

2 scenes where Jack yells "get me some water"! One for Claire, one for Sayid. They must teach this in med school :)

That’s pretty much his token cure-all. If we had a montage of all his water-moments, we’d have at least a full seven hours of footage. :D

Razzle Freakin' Dazzle

07-12-07, 10:37 PM

Christian didn't just leave after Claire was born. He said in "Par Avion" that he visited her when she was young, and sang to her.

The whole "my Mom would disown me thing" is a little irksome, though. I can buy that she would want to keep the whole Mom-in-a-coma thing secret (maybe letting everyone think that her aunt is her mom?) but that needs to be explained. Otherwise, it has to go down as an error.

I think the best thing about this episode is it really shows that the writers knew where the wanted to go with the mythology from the beginning, since they set up questions in this episode that they don't answer until "One of Us." And can I just reaffirm how awesome Claire's havid in the first scene is? I love it!

Right.. It has to be explained. But we can just put the smoke monster, the whispers, on the back burner I suppose. This is just like Jack's tattoos, you think you want to know, but you don't want to. :) I think the show could keep going on without this being answered, plus we are just suppose to assume she was keeping it secret.

Hodgepodge

07-12-07, 11:18 PM

...I find it interesting that Malkin later reveals himself to be a fraud. Still doesn’t explain why he is so insistent with Claire about the baby (calling her in the middle of the night, etc.). He just seems too obsessive over it for it to be something completely fraudulent. I know there has been tons of speculation on this on this very board. Might there be something to the theories that he is involved in a con with the couple supposedly waiting in LA?...Darkrogue, I never bought his fradulent act in the ? episode. I think he may've been trying to deny his daughters gift. Maybe he understands what a hardship it is seeing/knowing the future.

Obviously, we still don't know whether he wanted Claire on flight 815 for a nefarious reason, or was there really couple in Los Angeles waiting for the baby. I've always chosen the former for the reasons you mentioned. He was very adamant about her keeping the baby. Then, he does a complete 180 and convinces her to fly to L.A. Putting her specifically on flight 815, going as far as purchasing her ticket.

I've always thought, a better question is whether he wanted her to fulfill the prophecy and raise the baby herself, or die in the crash and end all doubt?

ozanna

07-13-07, 07:13 AM

I really started to feel for Claire in this episode - not only is she pregnant and stranded on a very strange island with no partner, she has all this weird stuff with Malkin the phsycic (or psycho, whatever) to worry about. At least Charlie seems to care for her even though he is a self confessed druggie. Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time, Claire ..... !

Hurley proves once again that he will do what has to be done to get results.
He goes to Sawyer who is reading and wearing a pair of goofy looking glasses (only Sawyer could get away with that !) and apprehensively asks him if he has the flight manifest. Sawyer, with the minimum amount of back chat gives it to him. Great dynamics between these two.

11Rooster11

07-13-07, 02:01 PM

Hodgepodge

07-13-07, 05:13 PM

I agree with you completely. I think denying his ability was simply a convinient way to get rid of a meddlesome Eko. If he knew that the plane would crash then I would say that he also knew that she'd survive. The first scene when Claire arrives for the reading with her friend was pretty creepy for me. He knows of her pregnancy immediately (2 days after Claire learned of it). So the only the way he could know that is 1) He has the gift 2) Someone told him in advance (maybe the friend)...So Rooster, you think his visions differ from Desmond's in that regard? Malkin is able to see the complete story from beginning to end. I can buy into this, it just seems so crepy that no matter how it ended, his prophecy was fulfulled. If Claire survived, she would have to raise the baby herself. And, if she died, it would all be moot.

11Rooster11

07-13-07, 05:44 PM

So Rooster, you think his visions differ from Desmond's in that regard? Malkin is able to see the complete story from beginning to end. I can buy into this, it just seems so crepy that no matter how it ended, his prophecy was fulfulled. If Claire survived, she would have to raise the baby herself. And, if she died, it would all be moot.

Hodge, He was absolutely maniacal in his insistance that Claire raise the child. His calls were made to seem on the verge of harrassment and then suddenly he has the idea to get her on 815. Perhaps he did a reading for someone else that revealed the crash of 815 (perhaps another Lostie) and that some survived and were stranded for an extended period. Since Claire and her unborn baby are at the front of his mind, making the connection to get her on the plane that he knows would crash and not be found seems like a possibility.

I hope (and suspect) that we haven't seen the last of Malkin.

jane_eire

07-13-07, 06:04 PM

"Malkin" is an old word. It used to mean "peasant woman", and then became a term for a witch's familiar, like a cat. Although in Scotland it meant "rabbit".

The Changeling resonates. A changeling is defined as either a substituted or stolen child, an imposter, a fickle person, or a fool. Claire (and her child) are stolen, by an imposter, under the noses of Charlie and Jack. Claire is always changing her mind - keep the baby or give it away, live at the caves or at the beach, Malkin was wrong... or he was absolutely right.

thatbutton

07-13-07, 08:41 PM

Locke_and_Load

07-14-07, 09:04 PM

What was the exact timeline for Malkin's appearance's in Claire's and Eko's flashbacks? Could he have met Eko in Eko's fb in between when he's telling Claire not to give up the baby and when he sets her up on flight 815? If so, maybe he saw through Eko that 815 would crash and decided the safest thing to do would be to put Claire on it.

The only thing is if he did see the crash of flight 815 through Eko, why wouldn't he warn Eko about it. Maybe to bring him to his brother, or just simply so he wouldn't try and tell anyone.

Hodgepodge

07-14-07, 10:47 PM

...Perhaps he did a reading for someone else that revealed the crash of 815 (perhaps another Lostie) and that some survived and were stranded for an extended period. Since Claire and her unborn baby are at the front of his mind, making the connection to get her on the plane that he knows would crash and not be found seems like a possibility...

What was the exact timeline for Malkin's appearance's in Claire's and Eko's flashbacks? Could he have met Eko in Eko's fb in between when he's telling Claire not to give up the baby and when he sets her up on flight 815? If so, maybe he saw through Eko that 815 would crash and decided the safest thing to do would be to put Claire on it.I really like this Rooster. It's obvious he didn't see the crash in Claire's reading, so it would have to be someone elses. And, why not a Lostie.

He'd have close to 6 months of other readings to find the crash. Remember, she was like a couple of weeks when they first met. I mean, it could be anyone one of our Losties including Mr. Eko.

I agree with Thatbutton, we need to tie together Malkin's visit with Eko and his late night call to Claire. The one telling her about the couple in Los Angeles wanting to adopt her baby.

According to the rewatch and the transcripts, Malkin needs to touch the individual. When he met Mr. Eko in the ? episode, did they shake hands? If they did, maybe he got the vision then?

thatbutton

07-15-07, 02:16 AM

abcdxyz

07-15-07, 10:10 PM

Are the strange dreams on the island just dreams, or are they havids created by the island? Claire's dream doesn't seem like just a dream, but what does it mean, really?

"He was your responsibility but you gave him away, Claire. Everyone pays the price now." She didn't give him away, although she was planning to. And what is "the price" they all have to pay? Being marooned on the island?

ozchick

07-16-07, 01:07 AM

While this episode doesn't really make me like Claire more, it does make me like Charlie more. He's just so sweet to her, and it's not because he wants to get into her pants. His line "I could be your friend" made me awwww. The music is also beautiful in this ep, especially in the Charlie/Claire scenes. Also, Charlie timing the contractions: 1 sugar plum fairy, 2 sugar plum fairy, is a riot! :rotfl:

I think Malkin knows about the crash, and sends Claire on purpose, and there was never a couple in LA. How he finds out about the crash is still uncertain to me, though I like the ideas here about reading another Lostie.

The stuff with her mum is bothersome. Part of me thinks TPTB just hadn't thought her story all the way through yet. I think they'll need to explain it more, and I'd be willing to buy that she refers to her aunt as mum and hides her actual comatose mum.

Locke was very interested in Sayid's story about not being alone on the island.

Sawyer nickname:
Stay Puft: Hurley

Darkrogue

07-16-07, 10:51 AM

Darkrogue, I never bought his fradulent act in the ? episode. I think he may've been trying to deny his daughters gift. Maybe he understands what a hardship it is seeing/knowing the future.

Obviously, we still don't know whether he wanted Claire on flight 815 for a nefarious reason, or was there really couple in Los Angeles waiting for the baby. I've always chosen the former for the reasons you mentioned. He was very adamant about her keeping the baby. Then, he does a complete 180 and convinces her to fly to L.A. Putting her specifically on flight 815, going as far as purchasing her ticket.

I've always thought, a better question is whether he wanted her to fulfill the prophecy and raise the baby herself, or die in the crash and end all doubt?

Yeah, he was very suspicious when speaking to Eko. There was something about the entire drowning scenario that he was uncomfortable with (naturally). The whole episode was eerie, and I wonder if they’ll revisit the issue, somehow. It is a good point you make that he might have hoped she would be killed, along with the baby. The baby was what seemed to freak him out; perhaps he wanted to rid the world of li'l Turniphead? :D

While this episode doesn't really make me like Claire more, it does make me like Charlie more. He's just so sweet to her, and it's not because he wants to get into her pants. His line "I could be your friend" made me awwww. The music is also beautiful in this ep, especially in the Charlie/Claire scenes. Also, Charlie timing the contractions: 1 sugar plum fairy, 2 sugar plum fairy, is a riot! :rotfl:

Ozchick, I agree so much. He’s such a goofball I could never help but like him. And you’re correct, his intentions are pure, at least with Claire. He’s never tried to con her into sleeping with him. It all just solidifies my feeling that it is more the coming child to which he is attracted. I think he cares about Claire, but the depth of his caring is something that developed over time as a result of the child: the baby was the initial lure. He simply wants a family.

In a way, I think it’s admirable that he is so willing to help her raise another man’s child. Most men would run as fast as they could in the opposite direction at that prospect.

I also love the way he almost hyperventilates over the contractions. He’s almost more nervous than she is! :D

And I also agree that they hadn’t thought her story fully through at the time. I don’t think they knew what to do with her, exactly. While I think they have a “general” overall plan in mind, they are making a lot of character-related details up as they go along.

jane_eire

07-16-07, 01:10 PM

i liked this episode

Hodgepodge

07-16-07, 05:27 PM

Alright Hodge, I rewatched the scene in ? with Malkin and Eko and there's no shown physical contact between the two of them (it is a very odd scene though). Also, there's no mention of what day it actually is. Lostpedia dates Claire's first visit to Malkin as sometime in February 2004. He gives her the ticket September 21, the day before the plane leaves. That gives him plenty of time to have seen another one of the future losties. Also, September 22 in the airport is when Charlotte Malkin (Richard's daughter) finds Eko and gives him a message from Yemi.Damn Thatbutton! I hate it when a plan falls through. But, I think were on the right track. Malkin found out about flight 815 from another reading, and that reading came from a Lostie.

Are the strange dreams on the island just dreams, or are they havids created by the island? Claire's dream doesn't seem like just a dream, but what does it mean, really?

"He was your responsibility but you gave him away, Claire. Everyone pays the price now." She didn't give him away, although she was planning to. And what is "the price" they all have to pay? Being marooned on the island?Abcdxyz, not sure if you've had a chance to read Bob Sacamano's award winning theory, Their Dreams Come True thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1176274#post1176274)? I haven't finished it myself, but it touches on several HAVIDs, dreams, et all.

...The stuff with her mum is bothersome. Part of me thinks TPTB just hadn't thought her story all the way through yet. I think they'll need to explain it more, and I'd be willing to buy that she refers to her aunt as mum and hides her actual comatose mum...Yeah, I know what you're talking about. And, your assumption is probably right. TPTB hadn't thought about this part of the backstory.

But, it was mentioned when this dilemma first arose, maybe Claire started referring to her aunt as her "mother". Remember, Claire was distracted by arguing with her mother when the accident happened.

The Sugar Plum Fairy comes from The Nutcracker, the famous ballet by Tchaikovsky. The protagonist's name? Clara. The ballet is noted for its use of a musical instrument known as a celesta, a transposing instrument which plays its notes an octave higher than written. Celesta means "heavenly", a reference to celestial matters - the stars. There's a star on the crib in Claire's dream, her favorite lullaby is Catch a Falling Star, and her new boyfriend used to be a rock star. Oh, and she's into Astrology. (That's Rick Romer's book on astrology she's been reading on the beach.)

Stay-Puft comes from the movie Ghostbusters: a huge evil Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man is manifested, terrorizing the city in the climactic finale. In Raised By Another, Hurley plays detective, canvassing the survivors and cross-referencing them with the Manifest. He discovers that Ethan is not on the Manifest, that he's a spy... a "ghost", in other words, which Hurley has "busted".Thanks for the information Jane_Eris! :wave2:

ZIA

07-16-07, 09:51 PM

find it interesting that Malkin later reveals himself to be a fraud. Still doesn’t explain why he is so insistent with Claire about the baby (calling her in the middle of the night, etc.). He just seems too obsessive over it for it to be something completely fraudulent. I know there has been tons of speculation on this on this very board. Might there be something to the theories that he is involved in a con with the couple supposedly waiting in LA?

Obviously, we still don't know whether he wanted Claire on flight 815 for a nefarious reason, or was there really couple in Los Angeles waiting for the baby. I've always chosen the former for the reasons you mentioned. He was very adamant about her keeping the baby. Then, he does a complete 180 and convinces her to fly to L.A. Putting her specifically on flight 815, going as far as purchasing her ticket.
I've always thought, a better question is whether he wanted her to fulfill the prophecy and raise the baby herself, or die in the crash and end all doubt?

Malkin is able to see the complete story from beginning to end. I can buy into this, it just seems so crepy that no matter how it ended, his prophecy was fulfulled. If Claire survived, she would have to raise the baby herself. And, if she died, it would all be moot.
Hi everyone!!:D I'm back from vacation.

Malkin told Claire, "they're "good" people, Claire. This is what MUST happen. It has to be this flight and no other. Flight 815. Flight 815."

Now knowing what we now know about being "good" I have to say either he had to know because he did actually foresee it or the whole crash scenario was pre-planned and Malkin was in on it making sure Claire was on the plane.

The issue I have with this thought is that Malkin was so adament about Claire herself and no one else raising the baby, "danger surrounds this baby, no happy life without you, this baby needs your protection, etc."

If he was a part in this bigger conspiracy then how would he not know they would try to take her baby? If her baby was taken, then clearly she wouldn't be raising it herself.

LOVE Claire's havid and Love the Locke dream scene. I wonder who was running away in the background during the dream sequence with Locke.? Did anyone else notice that?
Ethan was super creepy. Hurley was awesome taking the census... "Looking...uh-huh...right on."

Sorry Darkrogue, but I thought Claire was a great screamer. The only one better is that girl from the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre-IMO! :)

1 sugarplum fairy. 2 sugarplum fairy. :D Too funny. Charlie was awesome in this episode having phantom contractions and protecting Claire.

The only thing that annoys me are the references to Claire's Mom with Claire and the timeline.

Truly a classic bizarre and twisted episode of LOST. I've always LOVED this episode.

Hodgepodge

07-16-07, 10:38 PM

Hi everyone!!:D I'm back from vacation.

Malkin told Claire, "they're "good" people, Claire. This is what MUST happen. It has to be this flight and no other. Flight 815. Flight 815."

Now knowing what we now know about being "good" I have to say either he had to know because he did actually foresee it or the whole crash scenario was pre-planned and Malkin was in on it making sure Claire was on the plane.

The issue I have with this thought is that Malkin was so adament about Claire herself and no one else raising the baby, "danger surrounds this baby, no happy life without you, this baby needs your protection, etc."

If he was a part in this bigger conspiracy then how would he not know they would try to take her baby? If her baby was taken, then clearly she wouldn't be raising it herself...I see the contradiction ZIA. Oh, and welcome back! :wave2:

If we assume "good" meaning the "Others", then he's a part of the conspiracy. I think this also may verify flight 815 was suppose to land instead of crash. But, if he's a part of the conspiracy, then the baby will turn out to be the bad seed and why would the "Others" want it?

Are we going under the assumption Claire's memory-flash in Maternity Leave, where we see the operating room staff waiting to take the baby is true? Also, don't forget Alex's statement, "You're going to die. They're going to cut him out of you. I can get you back to your camp, but we have to leave. Now!"

ZIA

07-17-07, 03:14 AM

I see the contradiction ZIA. Oh, and welcome back! :wave2:

If we assume "good" meaning the "Others", then he's a part of the conspiracy. I think this also may verify flight 815 was suppose to land instead of crash. But, if he's a part of the conspiracy, then the baby will turn out to be the bad seed and why would the "Others" want it?

Are we going under the assumption Claire's memory-flash in Maternity Leave, where we see the operating room staff waiting to take the baby is true? Also, don't forget Alex's statement, "You're going to die. They're going to cut him out of you. I can get you back to your camp, but we have to leave. Now!"

Thanks Hodge! :) I missed all the fun in the rewatch forum!!

We can now assume "good" meaning the "Others" because we know more now, but yes, when I rewatched, I took it as a major clue-way back then of things to come.

I don't think there was a couple in L.A. at all. I think Malkin knew the plane would crash all along.

As far as if he had a vision regarding danger around the baby and it would have no happy life without her, OR the "Others" needed her in particular, I don't know.

But just think, that means that one of the evil corporations (take your pick) did in fact choose who was on flight 815 before it even took-off and that is something so sinister and mind-blowing in itself. What do you think?
I know we've thought about this subject before and quite a bit, but all this rewatching is getting me going again. :) Besides, I can't get into the old ezboard threads anyway to check.

bella

07-17-07, 12:50 PM

What if Malkin meant Jack, Charlie, Kate, Sawyer, et al when he meant they are good people? Cause I really think he knew that plane was going to crash and they'd end up on the island - just don't know if he knew through doing someone's elses reading or had some kind of flash of the future. I really don't think Malkin is a fraud/fake, maybe embellished some, but he definitely has a gift of some kind, just like Walt does.

Hodgepodge

07-17-07, 05:22 PM

...We can now assume "good" meaning the "Others" because we know more now, but yes, when I rewatched, I took it as a major clue-way back then of things to come.

I don't think there was a couple in L.A. at all. I think Malkin knew the plane would crash all along...

...But just think, that means that one of the evil corporations (take your pick) did in fact choose who was on flight 815 before it even took-off and that is something so sinister and mind-blowing in itself. What do you think?
I know we've thought about this subject before and quite a bit, but all this rewatching is getting me going again. :) Besides, I can't get into the old ezboard threads anyway to check.

What if Malkin meant Jack, Charlie, Kate, Sawyer, et al when he meant they are good people? Cause I really think he knew that plane was going to crash and they'd end up on the island - just don't know if he knew through doing someone's elses reading or had some kind of flash of the future. I really don't think Malkin is a fraud/fake, maybe embellished some, but he definitely has a gift of some kind, just like Walt does.When I first started watching Lost, I came to the same conclusion. Our survivors was selected for flight 815. And, as the series progressed, it became obvious they were individually herded onto the plane. With the intent of living on Craphole Island.

Warthawg asked me a question way back when that slapped some sense into me. I'm going to ask you both that same question. "How do you crash an airplane and have certain passengers survive?" I've never been able to answer that question. :confused: Plus, we now know the "Others" weren't expecting the crash or the plane. Didn't know who was aboard or anything about them.

I agree with the idea there was no couple in Los Angeles to adopt Claire's baby. But, did Malkin see her survive the crash? Was she the only one he saw? Or, as I mentioned in an earlier post, it didn't matter to him whether she survived or perished, the end result was the same? The world would be rid of the antichrist!

11Rooster11

07-17-07, 06:16 PM

Plus, we now know the "Others" weren't expecting the crash or the plane. Didn't know who was aboard or anything about them.

I'm not entirely sure that I agree. It certainly seems that they were surprised by the arrival of 815 and we are certainly meant to draw that conclusion. However, it still seems plausible to me that some of the "Others" did know that 815 was coming but desired to keep that knowledge from the other "Others." The scene with patchy doing the preliminary research on the crash could have been staged for Juliets benefit. I'm not saying that I believe this possibility only that it remains a slim possibility in my mind.

Hodgepodge

07-17-07, 09:46 PM

I'm not entirely sure that I agree. It certainly seems that they were surprised by the arrival of 815 and we are certainly meant to draw that conclusion. However, it still seems plausible to me that some of the "Others" did know that 815 was coming but desired to keep that knowledge from the other "Others." The scene with patchy doing the preliminary research on the crash could have been staged for Juliets benefit. I'm not saying that I believe this possibility only that it remains a slim possibility in my mind.Rooster, are you of a mind that thinks instead of crashing on Craphole Island, flight 815 was suppose to land? Maybe not on Craphole, but possibly Alcatraz?

I'll definitely give you Ben plays his cards close to the vest. As we've come to find out, no one knew The Looking Glass was occupied. Not even Mikhail. "I lied. Mikhail, I need you to go now."

clayseason1

07-17-07, 10:34 PM

But just think, that means that one of the evil corporations (take your pick) did in fact choose who was on flight 815 before it even took-off and that is something so sinister and mind-blowing in itself. What do you think?

Well, this is what I thought last year and I still think it this year - someone brought pressure to bear on Malkin so he would get Claire on that flight. (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=601039&postcount=56)

ZIA

07-17-07, 11:07 PM

"How do you crash an airplane and have certain passengers survive?" I've never been able to answer that question. :confused: Plus, we now know the "Others" weren't expecting the crash or the plane. Didn't know who was aboard or anything about them.

I agree with the idea there was no couple in Los Angeles to adopt Claire's baby. But, did Malkin see her survive the crash? Was she the only one he saw? Or, as I mentioned in an earlier post, it didn't matter to him whether she survived or perished, the end result was the same? The world would be rid of the antichrist!
I was just saying what if ? to the scenario of everyone being hand-picked for Flight 815.
Seriously, how would you crash a plane to have certain people survive? But, now we know about Jacob, and who knows the full extent of his powers? (for lack of a better word)
But, more interesting to me is; where are you going with the Antichrist thing?

Well, this is what I thought last year and I still think it this year - someone brought pressure to bear on Malkin so he would get Claire on that flight. (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=601039&postcount=56)
I could posibly buy into your theory.

11Rooster11

07-17-07, 11:34 PM

Rooster, are you of a mind that thinks instead of crashing on Craphole Island, flight 815 was suppose to land? Maybe not on Craphole, but possibly Alcatraz?

I'll definitely give you Ben plays his cards close to the vest. As we've come to find out, no one knew The Looking Glass was occupied. Not even Mikhail. "I lied. Mikhail, I need you to go now."

I'm really not sure what I think about the crash/destination of 815 :boggled:. There are lots of clues that point in different directions. If there was an obvious answer (with no holes in it) we'd have discovered it or been given it by now.

My earlier post was really more about saying we can't be sure what Ben knew. He's a liar and a manipulater :rubshands: , as you were kind enough to point out above. While I absolutely cannot answer Warthawg's question, everything still seems too coincidental.

Not sure if I answered your question or just rambled, probably a little of both.

Hodgepodge

07-18-07, 04:45 PM

I was just saying what if ? to the scenario of everyone being hand-picked for Flight 815.
Seriously, how would you crash a plane to have certain people survive? But, now we know about Jacob, and who knows the full extent of his powers? (for lack of a better word)
But, more interesting to me is; where are you going with the Antichrist thing?...ZIA, I have to admit the passenger coincidences of flight 815 are myriad.

1. We have a brother and sister, who don't know they're brother and sister on board.

2. We have a passenger who owns a company another passenger works for. This is unbeknownst to either of them.

3. Lets not even mention the numerous passenger acquaintances appearing in the background of another passenger. :confused:

In reference to my antichrist comment:
MALKIN: It is crucial that you, yourself, raise this child.

CLAIRE: You mean with Thomas? Is he..

MALKIN: The father of this child will play no part in it's life, nor yours.

CLAIRE: So what exactly are you saying?

MALKIN: This child parented by anyone else, anyone other than you -- danger surrounds this baby. . .

CLAIRE: Danger?

MALKIN: Your nature, your spirit, your goodness, must be an influence in the development of this child.

CLAIRE: If Thomas and I don't get back together I'm putting this baby up for adoption. I just wanted to find out what would give the baby the happiest life.

MALKIN: There is no happy life -- not for this child, not without you.

CLAIRE: I don't. . .

MALKIN: It can't be another. You mustn't allow another to raise your baby.The initial response by the membership to this dialog was along the lines, this baby was the anitchrist. It reminded me of the movie, The Boys from Brazil (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077269/) or Omen (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075005/). :scared:

ZIA

07-19-07, 12:58 AM

In reference to my antichrist comment:
MALKIN: It is crucial that you, yourself, raise this child.

CLAIRE: You mean with Thomas? Is he..

MALKIN: The father of this child will play no part in it's life, nor yours.

CLAIRE: So what exactly are you saying?

MALKIN: This child parented by anyone else, anyone other than you -- danger surrounds this baby. . .

CLAIRE: Danger?

MALKIN: Your nature, your spirit, your goodness, must be an influence in the development of this child.

CLAIRE: If Thomas and I don't get back together I'm putting this baby up for adoption. I just wanted to find out what would give the baby the happiest life.

MALKIN: There is no happy life -- not for this child, not without you.

CLAIRE: I don't. . .

MALKIN: It can't be another. You mustn't allow another to raise your baby.The initial response by the membership to this dialog was along the lines, this baby was the anitchrist. It reminded me of the movie, The Boys from Brazil (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077269/) or Omen (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075005/). :scared:

Seriously, how creepy was that whole scene with Malkin? I LOVED this episode so much!
Oh, regarding the Omen; The best scene ever (IMO) was when the Nanny tied the noose around her neck and said "All for you, Damien. All for you!" and then jumped off the window ledge swinging on the end of that rope.
Remember? :)

Annie

07-19-07, 01:49 AM

The scene in which Malkin hands her the Oceanic ticket the day before the flight seemed fishy to me. Probably there is more to it, but I always thought he had been bought off by someone. That someone being one of the evil corporations or whoever is recruiting certain people to be onboard Flight 815. When I think back, he admits to Echo he has no gift. Is this too conspiratorial or could the friend have been recruited to bring Claire to the psychic?

When the discussions of these episodes were going on, I recall it was said that everyone but Hurley was given their ticket by someone else or it was somehow preplanned for them. (This was before we knew the tailies.) There has to be someone pulling these strings or the Island/Jacob/Smokey/people from the future/people from another dimension is/are mystically directing the losties' actions to lure them to Flight 815.

Speaking of Hurley, I love how he always looks at the big picture. He thinks of the needs of the group. Taking that census was so smart and so essential to their safety.

ZIA

07-19-07, 01:55 AM

The scene in which Malkin hands her the Oceanic ticket the day before the
flight seemed fishy to me. Probably there is more to it, but I always thought
he had been bought off by someone. That someone being one of the evil
corporations or whoever is recruiting certain people to be onboard Flight
815. When I think back, he admits to Echo he has no gift. Is this
too conspiratorial or could the friend been recruited to bring Claire to the
psychic?

When the discussions of these episodes were going on, I recall it was said
that everyone but Hurley was given their ticket by someone else or it was
somehow preplanned. (This was before we knew the tailies.) There has to be someone pulling these strings or the Island/Jacob/Smokey/people from the future/people from another dimension is/are mystically directing the losties' actions to lure them to Flight 815.

Speaking of Hurley, I love how he always looks at the big picture. He thinks
of the needs of the group. Taking that census was so smart and so
essential to their safety.

I think Malkin was covering up what ability he did have to get rid of Eko. (Aw, Eko!) And I think it was Hodge who brought up the idea that maybe Malkin's daughter was given an Others drug to bring about her near-death scenario for a reason we don't exactly know of yet.
I don't think anything in the context of LOST is too conspiratorial either.
I forgot all about the tickets for Flight 815. That's spooky.

catnap

07-19-07, 03:04 AM

Hodge, what is Boys from Brazil? I love scary movies and you grouped this one with the Omen. Are they similar? Sorry for threadjack/

Annie

07-19-07, 03:54 AM

Oh I remember that scene from the Omen, now that was spooky.

jane_eire

07-19-07, 02:37 PM

whispers

ZIA

07-20-07, 12:39 AM

Oh I remember that scene from the Omen, now that was spooky.
I know, right? Are you getting a visual? :)

ballyhoo

07-23-07, 12:18 AM

Damn Thatbutton! I hate it when a plan falls through. But, I think were on the right track. Malkin found out about flight 815 from another reading, and that reading came from a Lostie.

My best guess: Libby. She's the 815er we know the least about. The only problem is there's no easy way to show this in a flashback, because Libby's dead.

bella

07-23-07, 03:07 PM

:yeah:

Or possibly Rose?

Hodgepodge

07-23-07, 06:09 PM

...Oh, regarding the Omen; The best scene ever (IMO) was when the Nanny tied the noose around her neck and said "All for you, Damien. All for you!" and then jumped off the window ledge swinging on the end of that rope.
Remember? :)HMoG! Was that something else or what! :scared:

The scene in which Malkin hands her the Oceanic ticket the day before the flight seemed fishy to me. Probably there is more to it, but I always thought he had been bought off by someone. That someone being one of the evil corporations or whoever is recruiting certain people to be onboard Flight 815...

Malkin need not know the fate of flight 815. He was paid to put Claire on that flight. Whoever paid him might have known, though. Maybe he was paid by Ms. Hawking or Brother Campbell.This has been bandied around for some time now. And, it could be true! But, it gets back to the question raised by Warthawg1. How do you get certain individuals to survive a plane crash. Now, if you're of a mind that flight 815 was suppose to land on either Craphole or Alcatraz Island's I can more easily buy into this theory.

...And I think it was Hodge who brought up the idea that maybe Malkin's daughter was given an Others drug to bring about her near-death scenario for a reason we don't exactly know of yet.
I don't think anything in the context of LOST is too conspiratorial either.
I forgot all about the tickets for Flight 815. That's spooky.I never brought this up, but it's interesting. I'm trying to figure out the reason behind them doing this? :confused:

Hodge, what is Boys from Brazil? I love scary movies and you grouped this one with the Omen. Are they similar? Sorry for threadjack/You can follow this link (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077269/plotsummary) for a synopsis, but leave it to say, it's about the idea of nature vs nurture. Can a child be born bad. Sort of like the movie of a similar name, The Bad Seed (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048977/plotsummary).

11Rooster11

07-23-07, 06:35 PM

I never brought this up, but it's interesting. I'm trying to figure out the reason behind them doing this? :confused:

Causing her death (or near death) could have been what was done to finally scare Malkin into doing their bidding? I suppose?

Hodgepodge

07-23-07, 06:51 PM

Causing her death (or near death) could have been what was done to finally scare Malkin into doing their bidding? I suppose?Just slap me upside the head Rooster. This is so obvious! :dunce:

Thanks! :nanabobo:

bella

07-23-07, 07:05 PM

Can someone refresh my memory on what exactly caused Makin's daughter's near death?

Hodgepodge

07-23-07, 07:43 PM

Can someone refresh my memory on what exactly caused Makin's daughter's near death?"We were out in the back blocks and Charlotte must have slipped; and she went into the river and she's not much of a swimmer. She was dead and the next day she woke up. Don't you understand? It's a miracle -- a confirmation of faith..." This is the story Charlotte's mother tells Eko and the Monsignor. I see where you're going Bella! :)

Des02

07-23-07, 09:47 PM

I a bit on the fence on Malkin, a part of me wants to think that it has to do with Aaron, he sees something about him and expects Clair to die in the crash there for Aaron would die and whatever he seen would dissipate. Then I want to think of it as he seen the crash knew Clair would survive and be the one to raise Aaron keeping him “safe”. I guess im more for the latter seeing how I don’t know why he would see the crash and not see Clair had survived.
I do remember that at the time I thought this was the creepiest episode to date.

11Rooster11

07-24-07, 02:15 PM

Hodgepodge

07-24-07, 06:07 PM

I really don't think Malkin saw the crash of flight 815. Remember, he spent months trying to convince her to raise the baby. Then, all of a sudden he changes his mind and buys her a plane ticket. We've got two possible reasons for this change of heart.

One, he saw the crash from a reading of another Lostie. Decided whether she lived or died, the problem would be solved. Or, the possibility someone/thing/entity was the impetus for this mind change.

Rooster had a great idea this was done through threatening his daughter, but maybe my previous post laid that to rest. Or, maybe not!

clayseason1

07-30-07, 02:11 AM

I am convinced that Malkin knew that Claire would survive the crash. His motivations for putting her on the flight are still a big question with several reasonable explanations.

I don't think that Malkin put her on the flight in an attempt to kill her. If eliminating the baby was his motivation there are other ways to make that happen. He could have attempted to convince her to abort the baby. He could have arranged a beating or drugging designed to create a miscarriage. All he really wanted was Claire to raise the child, and surviving the crash accomplished that.

I really don't think Malkin saw the crash of flight 815. Remember, he spent months trying to convince her to raise the baby. Then, all of a sudden he changes his mind and buys her a plane ticket. We've got two possible reasons for this change of heart.

One, he saw the crash from a reading of another Lostie. Decided whether she lived or died, the problem would be solved. Or, the possibility someone/thing/entity was the impetus for this mind change.

Rooster had a great idea this was done through threatening his daughter, but maybe my previous post laid that to rest. Or, maybe not!

IMO, Malkin was forced to get Claire onto that plane - see my earlier post from this thread.

Well, this is what I thought last year and I still think it this year - someone brought pressure to bear on Malkin so he would get Claire on that flight. (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=601039&postcount=56)

Actually here's a link to a more detailed post with my reasoning on why I believe Malkin was coerced into getting Claire on that plane. Claire and Aaron (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=745614&postcount=25)

Malkin's only motive in getting Claire on that flight was to protect his own daughter, imo.

GardenMom

07-30-07, 04:42 PM

Your post that you linked to above was excellent, clayseason1! I agree that Malkin was manipulated into getting Claire on 815 by the threat against his own daughter Charlotte. We know that the others have some pretty amazing drugs - the stuff that knocked out Juliette for instance - so faking Charlotte's death was probably not difficult. Maybe they are developing their drugs from that spider species on the island which has the ability to paralyze a healthy adult to the point of appearing dead!

The idea that Rachel was instrumental to their plan, feeding Malkin the info on Claire, is interesting. I. personally, lean more toward Thomas being in cahoots with them. 1) He convinced Claire not to abort early in the pregnancy by saying "We can do this." 2) Once the pregnancy has progressed to the point where abortion is not an option, Thomas disappears. 3) The similarity in Thomas' paintings and the island's paintings implies some sort of previous connection between Thomas and an island inhabitant.

I'm also curious about why Claire is stays in Thomas' loft after they split up. Do these screencaps show the same bed? I can't be positive, but it appears to be Thomas' bed when we see Claire answering Malkin's middle of the night phone calls. Or did Claire move back to her aunt's house? If so, how did Malkin contact her there? Though info from Thomas IMO.
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season1/1x10-raised/normal_raised106.jpghttp://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season1/1x10-raised/normal_raised531.jpg

And then, coincidentally, Christian decides to flee to Australia, where he tries to visit Claire. Did he know about the pregancy and that is what prompted him to try and see her at the aunt's house? I'm thinking that Christian's job was supposed to be convincing Claire to come with him back to Los Angeles where he could monitor the pregnancy and the child's future on behalf of the others/Dharma. That might have been what he was directed to do, but maybe he had an alternate plan in mind. That would explain why he wanted to have AnaLu along as a bodyguard in Australia. He may have had an inkling that Dharma types would come after him if he didn't follow orders. When the aunt tells him Claire isn't there, it would be because she is currently living in Thomas' loft and she won't disclose where that is. So Christian fails his mission (and oddly enough, ends up dead). When Christian dies, Dharma has to quickly move to Plan B, using Malkin to get the 815 ticket into Claire's hand. Since Malkin probably had no real involvement with Dharma, they had to coerce him by threatening his daughter.

clayseason1

08-06-07, 02:54 AM

The idea that Rachel was instrumental to their plan, feeding Malkin the info on Claire, is interesting. I. personally, lean more toward Thomas being in cahoots with them.
Oh, I agree GardenMom -- Thomas was either in on manipulating Claire or he too fell prey to some kind of outside pressure or threat.

Claire moved into Thomas' loft and then when they split, he left -- Claire remained in the loft.

One of my favorite characters is Christian Shephard. Here's a very interesting thread Guarding Christian (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21791). It really developed into a good discussion with thoughtful contributions by all.

Anyway, I currently think that Christian went to Australia to prevent Claire from getting on that plane and falling prey to the powers behind the manipulations -- that's why he needed a bodyguard. :D

Hodgepodge

08-15-07, 05:21 PM

ZIA

08-18-07, 11:42 PM

And GardenMom, I thought we'd put to rest the idea of whomever getting to Malkin through his daughter Charlotte, but I see we haven't. Your idea of using those spiders to evoke a death-like sleep is ingenious. And, if TPTB only used the spiders to get rid of Paulo and Nikki, you've given them another reason.

I'm with Hodge. Your idea about using the spiders is truly inspired, Garden Mom!

clayseason1

08-20-07, 01:44 AM

It's probably just coincidence and I brought it when we were introduced to Henry Gale aka Ben -- doesn't Thomas bear an uncanny resemblance to Ben?

ZIA

08-20-07, 01:50 AM

Clay-Screencap? From memory only, yes, a little, same features.

GardenMom

08-23-07, 10:43 PM

We've seen to much of Christian for him not to be somehow involved. Whether trying to save Jack and Claire, or manipulating them onto the flight. I can't wait to see how he's implicated.

I'm way behind in my re-watches, but I tend to get fixated on a particular episode! I had another thought about Christian's involvement in getting Claire on the plane. As I speculated earlier, Christian may have gone to Australia to locate Claire, bring her back to L.A. and oversee the pregnancy and the up-bringing of Aaron. What if the original plan was supposed to be CHRISTIAN and Claire on Flight 815? But then he dies and we end up with Jack and Claire on 815 instead? Jack wasn't supposed to be there and that is why he wasn't on Jacob's list. But perhaps Christian's name was on the list? And wouldn't that be an ironic twist in course-correcting...if Christian was meant to be on the plane but ends up with only his casket on the plane! Ha!

abcdxyz

08-23-07, 11:29 PM

GardenMom, that is an awesome speculation! It actually makes sense, as I've noticed that so many speculations on these forums (fora?) don't.

"Jack is really Sayid's brother, so Christian's body being missing from the casket must mean that his was one of the bodies on the drug plane. Jacob was bringing Christian to the island to be reunited with Hurley, but when the drug plane crashed, the electromagnetism caused a time shift that resulted in Hurley and Eko being Adam and Eve. The evidence for this is that the stones were white and black, and Hurley and Eko are white and black."

:rolleyez: Huh?

Hodgepodge

08-24-07, 12:21 AM

...I had another thought about Christian's involvement in getting Claire on the plane. As I speculated earlier, Christian may have gone to Australia to locate Claire, bring her back to L.A. and oversee the pregnancy and the up-bringing of Aaron. What if the original plan was supposed to be CHRISTIAN and Claire on Flight 815? But then he dies and we end up with Jack and Claire on 815 instead? Jack wasn't supposed to be there and that is why he wasn't on Jacob's list. But perhaps Christian's name was on the list? And wouldn't that be an ironic twist in course-correcting...if Christian was meant to be on the plane but ends up with only his casket on the plane! Ha!I really like this as well GardenMom.

Question! Are you supposing Christian already had a ticket on flight 815? I'm trying to remember the circumstances surrounding his and Ana-Lucia's separation. She wanted him to leave with her but he decided to stay. Was it ever mentioned in that car dialog, that they were suppose to leave together? Do we know how Ana-Lucia got her ticket? Did she buy it that day, or did she have a round trip ticket bought by Christian? I remember her telling her mother what flight she was on, but that's all. :confused:

..."Jack is really Sayid's brother, so Christian's body being missing from the casket must mean that his was one of the bodies on the drug plane. Jacob was bringing Christian to the island to be reunited with Hurley, but when the drug plane crashed, the electromagnetism caused a time shift that resulted in Hurley and Eko being Adam and Eve. The evidence for this is that the stones were white and black, and Hurley and Eko are white and black."

:rolleyez: Huh?Okay! Whose turn was it to give Abcdxyz his medication this morning? :mad:

ZIA

08-24-07, 12:56 AM

"Jack is really Sayid's brother, so Christian's body being missing from the casket must mean that his was one of the bodies on the drug plane. Jacob was bringing Christian to the island to be reunited with Hurley, but when the drug plane crashed, the electromagnetism caused a time shift that resulted in Hurley and Eko being Adam and Eve. The evidence for this is that the stones were white and black, and Hurley and Eko are white and black."
:rolleyez: Huh?

:rotfl:

sweetsunray

10-20-07, 05:05 PM

Regarding Malkin and his 180° turn and giving Claire the ticket for flight 815 the day before it flew out... Perhaps Malkin was partly a fraud as he admitted to Eko, but the meeting with Eko is very interesting in the timeline... in the week before the flight. We don't know for sure whether Malkin himself saw the plane crash, but we do know of a preson connected to Malkin who did have knowledge about Eko nobody else could know: Malkin's daughter. She even visited Eko on the airport to give Eko greetings of Yemi... so at least Malkin's daughter knew whre to find Eko, at the airport to catch flight 815. At least Malkin's daughter had bona fide visions, through her ND experience.

Now what if it was Malkin's daughter who saw and predicted the plane crash and that there would be survivors? And so all of a sudden Malkin had his solution to make sure Claire would raise Aaron by herself.

sweetsunray

10-23-07, 09:03 PM

Strange how a rewatch sometimes lets newer information sink in to become understanding. From what Juliet told about pregnant women dying and about Claire's case it turns out that at least it was a good thing Claire got kidnapped for as long as she did, because she did need a serum. We knew already from Claire's nightmare that Ethan probably had tested her. Juliet confirmed this. And apparently those tests had shown that Claire's internal system started to show similar signs as the Other women who usually died before the third trimester. Having seen Claire's first nightmare again and seeing all that blood in the crib and on her hands, I realized that the island may have warned her that if something would not happen soon she would be in physical danger. I tended to focus so much on the message of "Don't give your baby up to another," that I've looked over that bit we learned only so recently. Whatever animal Ethan was, and no matter how good it is that Claire was able to escape him eventually, it was a good thing for Claire and Aaron that she did get kidnapped and was treated for it, in so much that she could carry to term and survive. More, Claire's kidnapping and testing during that time may have given enough material for Juliet to find something for Sun and Kate if she's preggers too.

Ethan was immensely creepy and feral, and his presentation in S1 juxtaposes the image of him in S3. As others commented, Hurley's great with the idea of making a list of the passengers and the perfect guy to accomplish it. I remember I had the chills when Hurley told the rest of the Losties that one name on his list wasn't on the manifest. Of course it was that Ethan who had come onto screen as if out of nowhere. He was the first on my mind when Hurley shouted about one person not being on the manifest.

Also, this is the first episode where we see a Lostie have a dream. It's later established that Claire has been having some before this episode, which gives credence to the idea that Locke has been having dreams before the one we see in a couple of episodes later. Locke being in Claire's dream with his white and black eye, is also a hint of Locke already being part of the Island's dreamworld. Why would Claire dream of Locke at all? I always expected TPTB to get back to Claire's black rock dreams, but so far they never did. And I don't expect they will.

Just analysing Claire's dream/nightmare and Jack's vision of Christian we can already tell they seem to come from a different source with different motivations. The vision maker (Smokey) isolates its victims, lures them in the jungle and to their death or near death. Claire's dream wants to warn her of what may come to pass. If I think about the dream itself and its symbolism we have Locke with his white and black eye. This could be taken as Locke sees things black or white (and he tends to think in extremes: either believing everything, or denying everything... if he ever were to become an atheist he'd "believe" in it as fervently as he'd "believe" in the supernatural.), but it's a reminder to us that there are seemingly two opposite players at work: the one that steers the visions, and the one that steers the dreams. Locke is laying out tarot cards... thus he is fortune telling, predicting the future: the message of this dream is about what may come to pass in the future, a warning about the possible future. Locke talks to Claire, and he talks as if the future is the present and the past already: "you gave him away." And when thinking about Locke himself it signals he may already know some things about the future, or is prone to know it. Another image of the dream is the mobile of Oceanic toyplanes (with a broken one). The broken toyplane clearly refers to the crash, the broken up plane. Immediately afterwards comes the scene where the crib's empty and bloody. Linking the two images then, the dream tells her that because of crashing on the island in the past she's in deadly danger in the near future and may come to lose her baaaybe.
There's one mystery about Claire's dream that has not yet been solved or answered directly: We all pay the price now. If Claire had surrendered Aaron to the Others then the Losties would end up in a bad situation.

One explanation for the latter could be that if Claire had not escaped when Alex made her run, Ethan may have indeed cut her open and grabbed Aaron not even believing Claire would be able to survive. And then Sun and possibly Kate would have ended up paying the price with their lives as well. Whereas now, at least Juliet knows for sure that at least one woman survived her pregnancy and delviered a healthy baby. But I'm not sure yet that may be the answer.

Claire's lying about her visit to the Ob-gyn to Jack. She received her ticket for flight 815 from Malkin the day before take-off. So, her Ob-gyn could not have ok-d her flying a week before the flight, because Claire wasn't planning on flying out then. She still planned to have her baby adopted. Important for those who timeline. Of course it's possible that because she was planning to sign her baby away for adoption around the same time she visited Malkin when he gave her the ticket, that she did visit the Ob-gyn the week before, but she would not have had a conversation about flying. Of course it's a small lie, of little importance and very understandable. It's not as if she could explain to Jack that the Ob-gyn didn't ok it, because she had made the decision to fly out only the day before, and that for a couple in LA who wanted to adopt her baby. That information not only seems too personal to acknowledge, let alone under the circumstances, and isn't even all that relevant anymore. She's going to have the baby here, won't let it be adopted, and she's gonig to be a mom soon enough. So, at first sight the white lie seems of no importance at all. But in a way it does have an influence on Claire's behaviour for the rest of the episode. It actually enhances the feeling of distrust of Claire towards Jack, which will already be on the defense because of hormonal influences, because she commenced the cycle of not confiding in him in the first place over something of no importance really. Regardless of everything else good or bad about Jack, he is the only doctor on a deserted island where she's going to have her baby.
Then again, maybe she wasn't lying after all. Maybe the Ob-gyn did OK her flying because she planned to go to Melbourne for the couple that planned to adopt her baby.

Claire's comment about how her mom would disown her. Of course I'm sure they backtracked on that in S3, and hadn't thought that far ahead and changed whatever they had in mind originally. But leaving that thought aside, although weird, the conversation can be interpreted with what we know about her mom, is that at least to Claire, mom is still mom and would disagree with her having the baby if she was not in a coma. Claire hasn't let go of her mother yet. But the hints about Claire's mom during the first visit with Malkin are a problem. Why would Rachel say surprised, "She hasn't told her mom yet--" if Claire's mom is in a coma. Claire may be in the habbit of talking to her comatose mother as if she was a diary, but it doesn't make sense for Rachel to remark on it towards Malkin. It's not as if her comatose mother can gossip about it. And then Claire's "What? Should I not tell her?" is way off.

Tsa, Tom, another of those exemplary backstory people who really got taking responsibility about their decisions nailed down. Sheesh.

Timeline reference during the conversation between Jack and Kate: Sayid's been gone for almost a week now.

That little scene is important in the sense that after Kate decided to remain on the beach, Jack's signaling her that he's fine with it as far as it pertains their friendship. Also noted that it's not just Kate who tattle tales to Jack, but Jack who keeps Kate up to date as well: Claire's going to have to deliver soon. Jack ends up conversing with Kate once more about Claire's second dream (or possibly real attack), again at the beach. He's actively involving her into the investigation and mentioning his ideas about it at "her" turf (after Sayid handed it to her). Later we see her at the caves where she's Jack's helper once more.

Malkin: it's jarring to me that Malkin later claims to be a fraud, because of the reading scenes with Claire he has. First of all, the way he reads is as simple and as accurate portrayed as people I personally know who read. To me, what Malkin does portrays at least the act of reading as I know it. That of course, doesn't negate he is a fraud as he claims later to Eko: after all it's an actor who plays Malkin, and the actor is acting as if he's reading. What at least amazes me about this scene is how good TPTB protrayed it. Most of the time I just see overacting, very cliched (like with the woman Hurley's dad drags Hugo to), in such scenes. But TPTB and the director of this episode, and possibly the actor of Malkin have researched this act good enough in that they've seen things perform as I'm accustomed to. Now, personally I still wouldn't bet my future on such a reading, since to me the future is not fixed, just probable because of paterns and predictable behaviour. So, when I say how genuine the scene looks, I don't mean that readings are reliable predictions (although I do regard them a reliable source of information of the now), just that the act of reading to me at least seems genuine and for me Malkin could have very well accurately read that Claire was pregnant, as well as that she ought to raise her baby herself.

Claire's second dream, or was it a dream? Over the years I've been doubting between the two. I'm not sure. But I don't think it's possible even for Ethan to just walk in calmly upon the scene of Claire screaming the minute after he supposedly attacked her. But Juliette did mention Ethan had tested her. So, imo Claire was dreaming/having a vision of what may have happened to her already in the past, in a skewed violent way.

Timeline references about Claire's pregnancy: Tom breaks up with her three months after learning she is pregnant, and in the previous FB with Malkin we learn she only knows about the pregnancy for 2 days, after she's already 6 weeks late with her period. So, Tom breaks up with her when she's about 5 months pregnant. She visits Malkin a week later, so also when she's about 5 months pregnant. And when she finally visits him the day before flight 815, she mentions he's been harrassing her for 4 months. That would make her be close to 9 months already when she crashes on the island. Hmmm, I once plotted it out and then it was manageable counting the weeks, but it seems a bit too close now, counting that they're on craphole island over a week now (remember Sayid' been gone already almost for that long) and it takes at least a week more I think for her to finally deliver for real.

"You mustn't allow another to raise your baby." Weird to hear Malkin say it now, doesn't it? Does he just mean "another" or "an Other"? But later he says, "And they're not strangers, Claire. They're good people." Good people can also be taken as a reference to the Others, and here Malkin mentions they're not strangers, indicating he knows them. So, first, it seems he had foreseen from the beginning what might happen and was afraid of it, and now he works to accomplish it, ot make it happen. But then Claire's pen not working (wasn't that weird). Of course the first time it didn't work, I immediately thought that she was not going to sign it. But it puts into mind that Claire's not on craphole island because of Malkin alone. Mittelos, nor Dharma initiative could have had control over two pens not working at the lawyer's office. That makes me think that Claire was not only manipulated onto Lost island, but fated to be there. One time might be coincidence, but 2 times?

CHARLIE: Right. So, to prove your sanity you go tromping through the jungle alone. Well done. I already said it, I just love Charlie's humor! Irony is a great humor to make accurate observations without attacking the other party of hte conversation.

Shannon's answer for the census - timeline related: Shannon's 20. This I was never able to wrap my mind around... how is it possible she was ever married? She's been living for several months with the Aussie bf she conned Boone with, nor was it the first time she conned Boone, she was an au-pair in France and that sounded to have lasted for a couple of months as well, she started on her moving about type of life from man to man when she was a near graduate of HS or later even (based on the dance company that wanted her... or is that a misjudgement of mine). I mean, I don't think a guardian (and I suppose Shannon's witch of a stepmother would have been her legal guardian until she was 18) can cut you off like that when you're not 18, right? How or when did she get married and divorced in that little amount of time? Of course, it might have been a Britney Spears kinda Vegas marriage, but then I don't think Boone would mention her having been married at all.

Locke and Hurley about the census. It's a funny scene, especially with Hurley being so intimidated. Locke likes to be intimidating, doesn't he? He seems to enjoy this status. Reminds me of someone not used to such a personality position and when he has it displaying it as much as he can to make due for the lack of it in the past. Somebody who's used to it doesn't have the need to show it off like that. Of course Locke has a secret he doesn't want people to find out per chance, and thus the less they want to know about him, the better I guess.

Charlie and Claire: I love Charlie's sense of humor. But Claire's partly right when she says that Charlie is interested in her because he thinks she needs caring. Charlie does look for an opportunity to be a family man, to have people depended on him for a change, instead of the other way around. And there's Claire: single, almost ready to give birth. He doesn't need to compete with the big league of characters out there gallavanting to look for water, hunt boars (although boars hunt him), etc, to be caretaker for her and her baby. I don't agree he's only in it for Aaron, either now or later. But the prospect of having a ready made family in front of him fits his own needs perfectly. Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, if the family doesn't. It's not a negative goal, nor approach. So Claire's also partly wrong imo when she claims he doesn't like her.

Jack: I do think Charlie goes overboard with it when he becomes all defensive over Claire towards Jack when he utters the observation that Claire shows no mark and that this perceived attack matches with her nightmare the night before as well as anxiety symptoms. Jack's not saying she's lying, or even that the alternative explanation he offers is the correct conclusion. And if he would have listened more then he'd have heard that Jack isn't even saying there's nothing to be worried about, because he does worry about Claire. Whether anxiety based on a real threat or one stemming from nightmares, it could complicate the delivery and thereby endanger Claire's life. On the other hand, it wasn't smart of Jack to mention his thoughts of the alternative explanations to Charlie. Charlie's clearly emotionally involved, and it would be predictable he'd be on the defense. And yet, on the other hand, as a doctor he would be expected to talk about a perceived medical problem to the patient and relative or loved one, and so Charlie would be a perceived candidate for it.

But Jack should have had better bed manners with Claire at least. It didn't matter whether he believed her to have anxtiety dreams only or whether they were based on something real. It only mattered to prevent Claire from reaching such a state of anxiety that it would start her having contractions. And that alone should have been the angle to play on toward Claire: they're doing what they can to find out who possibly could be her attacker, but he's worried, doesn't want her in labour too early, and wants her to consider taking a mild sedative. That is the reason he wants her to take them, and that ought to be the only reason mentioned to her. And then it's still up to her whether she wants to take them or not. Where he could have expected for Charlie to listen to objective observations, he could not expect Claire to be open-minded about the fact that he thought it was only a dream, not when she's right smack in the middle of anxiety.

Some people can be very touchy when it comes to doctors and medicine. First time I was confronted with that in a leader position I blew it, but that mistake never happened to me again, and I'm not even a doctor. When I perceive mistrust (for any reason) in a medical situation, I go for the worry angle, what I'm worried about, why I'm worried about it, and what the patient can do about it. And that's the only way IME that helps to alleviate possible hostility. I'd suppose a doctor would have much more experience with patients who are suspicious of medical staff. And even as a spinal surgeon he'd have had ER training and must have been confronted with reluctant patients, I'm sure. All comes back down to Jack's bedside manner.

Actually, I don't understand why he fails at it, because clearly with Rose on the beach he was perfect at it. Is that because Rose is assertive and wise, instead of defensive? Has it been mentioned to him a bit too much that he gets so anxious himself about saying the wrong thing that he ends up saying the wrong thing indeed? Compare it with Charlie. There at least I don't perceive him saying anything wrong really, wihtin the particular situation of Jack-Charlie-Kate. But with Charlie's overblown hissyfit he gets so anxious to talk to Claire herself that he goes about it the wrong way walking on egg shells, which immediately makes her suspicious. Because to the psyche of the listener why would you be walking on egg shells, if you want to say something that you have a right to say (I'm worried that you'll deliver earlier than expected because of how what has been happening lately makes you feel anxious)? If you act as if you're walking on egg shells, a listener's alam bells will ring as loud as they can asap. Jack ought to get more confidence he does have the ability to be a good communicator if he puts his mind to it that is. That alone would boost his communication skills a lot to make up for what he lacks.

Just look at how Hurley does it! Sawyer so tends to react negatively when people suppose he's selfish or is going to keep something for himself that could benefit the group and is of lifesake importance. But Hurley goes straight to the point: You have something that I want and I need, and you'll give it to me just like that without a fuss, and then we'll end up both the better for it. He's all anxiousness, politeness and walking on egg shells when he asks Locke and Shannon about the information he wants for his census (see how suspicious they all react to that egg-shell walking behaviour here too), but he's all assertive towards Sawyer, and that just works miracles. BTW it's here that I got the idea that Sawyer ought to be the official "keeper/guardian of things/stuff". Give him the responsibilty and he'll stop abusing the position. Here's the first moment I thought: a good thing Sawyer's around or that list would have been long lost somewhere in the jungle, ocean or sand somewhere.

ozanna

10-24-07, 05:22 AM

Sweetsunray that was great ! What a great read.
When I first saw Locke and his role of hunter and killer of meat, I just thought straight away of the frustrated office drone, being humbled by an offensive little nobody. No wonder Locke doesn't want to leave the island - he can walk again, and its like all his little war games are coming true ! Now he can afford to be intimidating, and he is doing so with a vengeance !

Jack's bedside manner leaves a lot to be desired. He seems to only put his heart into something when he can become the hero, the divine saviour. I always got the impression he was not too bothered with Claire - "Oh, for heavens sake, girlie, you're only having a baby. Women have been doing that for centuries !" Same with Aaron and his fever and cough. Babies are always getting fevers and coughs and colds. Yes but not not on a mysterious desert island with not a lot of medical help ! And no experience and no partner to support you. His compassion and care appear to increase as the severity of the injury increases.

I still think Hurley is the most discerning of them all. Right at the start he called Sawyer a "chain smoking jack-ass" and Sayid, who had just had a fight with Sawyer commented that "everybody has their problems". Yet, as you said Hurley was never apprehensive about going to Sawyer, and Sawyer never played his silly little games with Hurley. They had this kind of a total honesty between them. Also Sayid. The three who seem to have so much baggage between them, are probably the ones I would feel the safest with, the ones you could trust implicitly. Right from the start I wondered why someone (Hurley) didn't get Sawyer to get his backside into gear and make himself useful. But then that would have got a bit boring wouldn't it ! See you later !

sweetsunray

10-24-07, 11:14 AM

Ozanna: I always got the impression he was not too bothered with Claire - "Oh, for heavens sake, girlie, you're only having a baby. Women have been doing that for centuries !"

That's an interpretation I would not make. He is concerned, especially concerned that the anxiety will bring labour on too soon, and he's apprehensive of the environment where it has to happen. He doesn't behave annoyed with Claire. He's even desparate when she walks out on him. The last thing he wants to happen is her running away. And his assessment of the situation was based on observational facts: no mark, she had a bad dream the night before, and heck even now I have a hard time believing Ethan tried to stab her a few seconds before entering the cave all complaisant with everyone worrying over her. The only thing he discounted a bit too rashly imo was that her anxiety dreams may have nothing to do with reality.
He's annoyed though when Sullivan comes to him about his rashes a few epis back. He even tells Hurley he thinks Sullivan a hypochondriac.
I do think he does feel better when he needs to be doing emergency doctoring. That doesn't surprise me much: he's a surgeon, not a house doctor. It makes different men and requires different talents to do the different jobs. On the island he has to be both, and the house calls are weary to him after a while. There are glimpses of him being able to socialise and say the right thing and put people's minds at ease, but he's not the socialising personality per se. Some people thrive, get their energy from constant social contact, and some people just get worn out from it. That's genetically dictated, part of the identity you're born with, and one of the few things you can't change. This type of identity he shares with Locke, Sawyer and Sayid. And if the other three were constantly approached for every little worry someone else has, I'm not even sure whether they'd have as much patience for it (except for Sayid maybe). Hurley's the only one I can think with a temperament who could pull this off completely. Reflecting back on my own experiences when tourleading (24/7 traveling in basic circumstances with people you didn't choose) and knowing I am the extravert type (thrive on social contact), I'm almost always worn out after 3 weeks and can truly enjoy doing nothing for a few days and not have people socially taxating me. And there are a few things I must preserve (privacy) in the first two weeks to prevent me from getting a bit snarly to the most demanding personalities within that group. Considering that I do pull of my hat for Jack for keeping up with sounding patient that long even as far as in S2.

Hurley-Sawyer-Sayid: I'd enjoy Hurley's company, but he wouldn't really make me feel safe. Sawyer I'd probably dislike and find annoying. I'd rarely socialise with him (sarcasm makes me feel unsafe), until per chance I'd end up alone with him and have to work something out with him. That would give me the chance to get a better insight that he's not sarcastic alone, and make me feel more respect and see that he does have a heart of gold, but I still wouldn't rely on him in general unless I was forced to. Sayid would probably the first of those three that I'd seek out for company and open up to. He's calm, shows interest and respect, and seems like a guy who knows how to handle crisises.

ZIA

06-17-09, 05:07 AM

LOST Hiatus Rewatch: Week 4, Weds., June 17th-23rd
2009
S1E10: Raised By Another
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/zia29112/LOST%20Stuff/300px-Lost-season1.jpg

turiel

06-17-09, 05:59 AM

I've been waiting for this episode to come up for rewatch :)

The first thing that struck me rewatching this episode is how very important, and very relevant it is to what's currently going on.

I think the events and foreshadowing of this episode are going to be vitally important to Season 6.

The episode starts with Claire's dream. Claire's very prophetic dream, I might add. She wakes up, her baby is gone. She goes to LOCKE. Why Locke? Why would Locke have the answer? I don't have a theory yet but it struck me as something important.

And now - one of the most important images we've seen in any episode - Hello Mr. Black+White. After the S5 finale, seeing Locke with one eye white and one eye black makes us realise that this was planned all along and this was (in retrospect) the most obvious clue we were ever given. Before we saw Locke holding up a black and white stone, this time they're actually inside him, telling us clearly (ok we hadn't a clue back then ;)) that Locke is going to be good AND evil.

But it also tells me something else important. Some would argue that Claire's dream, although prophetic, is simply normal dreaming and is a collection of her subconscious memories, rather than something the island sent her. She obviously had concerns about her baby. Locke was a mysterious character, somewhat like her psychic. He's even doing what appears to be tarot cards, so it looks like her mind is associating them both together. But here's the thing; Claire never saw those two stones (as far as we know). She would have no subconscious memory of them. That dream was sent to her by the island, I would bet on it.

Everyone pays the price now. That's one scary line, Mr. Locke. I'll talk more about this later.

Phew, all that and we're only into the first minute of the episode.

Charlie, shot down. Ouch. He wasn't even coming on to her, even "Lets just be friends" is too much for Claire!

Claire wakes up, Ethan having attacked her. Why has he got a knife to her stomach? We know he didn't want to hurt the baby. Why was a knife necessary?

Hurley finding an excuse to get away from crazy Locke is pretty funny.

There's a mystery up on darkufo asking why Ethan's surname is Rom instead of Goodspeed. I think its fairly reasonable to assume he lied about his surname when giving it to Hurley. After all, he lied about being from Canada. Unless the island is really in Canada. Hmm. Ethan seems quite worried when asking what the list is for, but manages to act nonchalant afterwards and shrugs it off. Hurley of course doesn't notice. I bet Sayid would.

I wonder what blurry thing the psychic saw. Smokey is kinda blurry I guess ;)

Alright, now onto the main point of the episode - The baby may not be raised by another. A lot of people have taken this to mean "an other". Following that line of thought, the 'danger' has been avoided because no other has raised it. Au contrair, the danger has most certainly not been avoided. The exact words from the psyhic are:
"It is crucial that you, yourself raise this child. This child, parented by anyone else, anyone other than you... danger surrounds this baby".
The baby was raised by Kate. This has occurred, there is no going back (ok unless there's alternate timelines!). Something bad is going to happen because of this. Everyone pays the price now. Thanks for reminding us John.

Why is the baby so dangerous? Its not that something dangerous will happen because of the baby, like Kate going back in time culminating in the explosion of Jughead. The psyhic says "your nature, your spirit, your GOODNESS, must be an influence in the development of this child". We're talking about it growing up to be frickin' evil or something. Will it grow up to be MiB through some crazy time-skew? ;) Nah, that's pushing it.

Alright, I'm done. Now, everyone pays the price.

Dew

06-17-09, 08:12 PM

Yay! The thread is open. I watched 3 episodes over the weekend. I really was interested in the psychic and Claire. The psychic freaks. Most prefer not to relay any negativity they encounter while performing a reading. This must have been a doozy of a vision. I wonder if Claire has some latent psychic ability. She was an astrologer. No one believed her except Charlie. Jack's poo pooing her being attack results in an actual abduction and Charlie being hung from a tree. Jack feels remorse for about a nanosecond.

Locke's black and white eyes while drawing tarot cards leads me to believe that either the island has influence over Claire or she is a sensitive. I lean more towards Claire and this is prophetic for her yet she doesn't realize it. Way cool of an episode. :D

World Walker

06-20-09, 03:30 AM

Ever since I decided to take part in the rewatch, I have been eagerly awaiting this episode especially.

Here we have another eyeshot at the beginning of the episode. Oh my gosh, I forgot the really freaky dream was the first thing we see! So, its night, we're in the jungle, and we hear Aaron crying.

"He was your responsibility, but you gave him away, Claire. Everyone pays the price now."

Locke has black and white eyes! Dear god almighty, now we've seen everything! It's also worth noting that he appears to be flipping tarot cards on the little table.

Aaron running through the jungle (at this point in the story before he is even born) is super creepy, even if it's just a dream.

Claire unwraps the bundle of blankets in the crib and comes away with a lot of blood on her hands.

Alright, what does all this mean? Symbolically, I believe this dream is crucial to the endgame of the show. Consider Locke, for one. He seems to have been used by both sides (black & white) during his life. This seems to be definite foreshadowing to the developments at the end of Season 5 (Jacob vs. MiB).

Also, Claire leaves Aaron in Season 4 all by himself in the jungle. We're not clear why she did this or if she was even herself, but she left him nonetheless. Since she left him, that apparently means all of them must pay the price. Aaron must be more important to the story than we realize at this point. Will Claire have to reunite with Aaron again to set things right? How will Claire come back next season? I guess we'll have to see!

Jack: "I had a girlfriend once who told me I talked in my sleep."
Claire: "What'd you say?"
Jack: "Don't know. Whatever it was, she didn't like it."
Interesting... :eyebrow:

Thoughts about Mr. Malkin: If I remember correctly, he claims to be a charlatan to Eko in Season 2. He's lying, though. Either, he's lying that he's a charlatan, or he really is a charlatan who managed to have a real vision of Claire's destiny. Either way, he saw something. His actions are not that of a fraud. He is aware of things that seem to scare the pants off him. He has access to information (Flight 815’s destiny) no ordinary person should have. Considering Claire's strange disappearance in Season 4, I'm starting to believe he saw some really crazy stuff.

That needle Ethan had sure looked like a knife in those quick scene flashes. He must've been giving her that strange goop he gives her later in The Staff. Love to find out if that stuff actually did anything.

That's horrible how that guy completely flakes on Claire after he talks her into giving the baby a shot. Ugh!

Locke creeping Hurley out! :nanabobo:

Anyone else see the ridiculous amount of spittle that flew out of Charlie's mouth when he said, "What did you say to her?" to Jack? lol

Mr. Malkin: "It is crucial that you yourself raise this child. This child parented by anyone else, anyone but you...danger surrounds this baby. Your goodness must be an influence in the development of this child." Malkin makes it sound like Aaron could grow up to be the next Hitler or something equally evil.

Well, if we take Malkin at his word, things aren’t looking so good right now in the world of LOST. Aaron is/was raised by Kate Austin, not Claire Littleton. At this point, it almost seems inevitable that we'll see a Claire and Aaron reunion next season, if only to set things right. This is some heavy stuff!

Well done, Hurley! He handled Sawyer well. :Cheers:

That's right, Claire, the island is trying to prevent you from signing the baby away. Watch those ink pens dry right up!

Obviously, the psychic was positioning Claire to get on Flight 815. How did he come by the knowledge that it would crash on the island? Does he actually possess abilities like some of the special children? Did he grow up on the island?

Hurley: "He wasn't on the plane." Truly one of the first twists to blow your freakin' mind in Season 1. If I wasn't hooked before, especially after Walkabout, I really was hooked after that.

Ethan with his creepy Other's look was…creepy!

This episode is probably way more important than we even realize at this point in the story. It contains some really heavy stuff and is a wonderful episode by its own right. Very enjoyable! :)

ZIA

06-20-09, 05:41 AM

Dammit! I fell behind! I really want to watch this episode again too. I'll hurry and watch tomorrow, so I can jump in.

ozanna

06-22-09, 08:52 AM

Everyone pays the price now. Now that was one scary phrase, and when you put it together with what happened at the end of S4 it was very prophetic. Everyone pretty well did pay the price - basically they were all responsible for Aaron being put on that chopper - nobody tried to stop him from leaving.

What was the reason for Claire abandoning him, when she had been told specifically that she must raise the child herself or great harm would befall him. What role did Christian have in all this, and why, when he saw Aaron with Sawyer, did he say that the child was exactly where he should be ?

I hope we get some answers about all this next season.

Annie

06-23-09, 04:06 AM

I lost my original post but what I remember was thinking there
were three instances of small black and white objects.
The game pieces, Locke's eyes in Claire's dream, and Adam
and Eve's stones in the black bag, were the
three I was able to remember.

One more thing about the meaning of the first two instances of
black and white stones. Would they be telling us that Locke,
throughout the story at times might also have been MIB?

ZIA

06-23-09, 04:41 AM

.
What was the reason for Claire abandoning him, when she had been told specifically that she must raise the child herself or great harm would befall him. What role did Christian have in all this, and why, when he saw Aaron with Sawyer, did he say that the child was exactly where he should be ?
.

Right. The psychic and Claire is one of the most compelling things that we have never had answered well. Was he covering up his abilities by lying to Eko? Was he telling the truth to Claire? He sure knew a lot of specific details for being a charlaton, if he is one. Of course, it could have all been a set-up in the first place, and I guess he could have been paid off. His daughter has powers too, so she got them from somewhere.

ozanna

06-24-09, 07:09 AM

This is so frustrating, Zia. I keep thinking I have made a breakthrough somewhere, and then I realize that it doesn't make sense ! How come everybody changed their minds ? Thomas originally thought it would be good for them to have a baby, but Claire was not convinced. She didn't think her $5 an hour job at the fish'n chip shop would help support them much ! Then Thomas did an about turn, and took off running. I wonder who got to him ?

I think Malkin was honest in his assessment of Claire - that she must raise the child herself. Only her goodness could save him from the evil that surrounded him. So I wonder who got at Malkin to change his story ? Christian is evidently the babie's "bodyguard" - or something. Is this why Christian managed to manipulate Jack onto F815 ? And maybe Sawyer ? Malkin had already ensured that Claire would be on the 'plane, and he knew it was going to crash. And now we have Claire's mother looking after her grandson.

Annie

06-26-09, 01:47 AM

Ozanna, those are interesting thoughts. Especially
since we have seen Claire in Jacob's house with
Christian. If I recall correctly, Christian awoke
Sawyer or Myles to alert them Claire and the baby
were missing.

ZIA

06-26-09, 02:23 AM

This is so frustrating, Zia. I keep thinking I have made a breakthrough somewhere, and then I realize that it doesn't make sense !
I think Malkin was honest in his assessment of Claire - that she must raise the child herself. Only her goodness could save him from the evil that surrounded him. So I wonder who got at Malkin to change his story ? Christian is evidently the babie's "bodyguard" - or something. Is this why Christian managed to manipulate Jack onto F815 ? And maybe Sawyer ? Malkin had already ensured that Claire would be on the 'plane, and he knew it was going to crash. And now we have Claire's mother looking after her grandson.

I kNOW! OMG! Don't we do this every rewatch? I don't get it. I thought Malkin was the real deal. What happened? Ok, so the entire thing could have been staged, but what about the pens not letting Claire sign her name? Remember? And how the Hell would Dharma (or whoever) know Claire was pregnant the day after she knew?

Could someone have threatened him, and that's why his daughter "died" and came back? Why does she have powers if he doesn't? It usually runs in families.

ozanna

06-26-09, 05:43 AM

And the fact that Christian just happened to go on a "bender" after he talked to Sawyer, die, and then get put on F815, in a coffin, with Jack, whose wife was extremely adamant that he travel to Sydney to bring his father home. Thus getting them both on the 'plane at the same time ? Not to mention Sawyer.

ZIA

06-26-09, 12:49 PM

I don't know. I think I'm going to watch it again tonight, maybe we're missing something. LOL.

Annie

07-07-09, 02:18 AM

If there is someone/something trying to get specific people on 815,
Malkin might have been used to manipulate Claire. He put
the ticket into her hand. That prophecy is still a haunting one
though. When you think about TBTB using Malkin in another
episode, it would seem there is more to him than the ticket.

Another thing I noticed was Aaron has been almost abandoned
by Claire, he was left alone in the jungle by her and left
alone in the hotel room by Kate.
I look forward to the discussion when the episode with Eko/
Malkin comes up.

ZIA

07-09-09, 12:23 AM

Oh, same here, Annie. I kind of want to watch them both at the same time, just to get the vibe right, This mystery is just one that I can't find resolution to. It just keeps going in circles. Apparently, other people still feel the same way. Another thread about the exact same subject came up in Guys recently. How funny is that? :)

Homer Noodleman

07-09-09, 02:03 AM

I'll mention one little Claire/Malkin tidbit that drifts by that might be of interest -- when he's telling Claire about the couple in L.A. that he claims are going to adopt Aaron he says, "...and they're not strangers, Claire. They're good people. "

As far as I can tell this is the first group of 'others' who are identified as being good people. So, if he had known she was going to crash on the island was he just using the general form of the Others always claiming they are the 'good' guys, or was he looking past them towards Ilana's group (who also specifically identified themselves as the 'good' guys?

However, the whole 'goodness' business in that episode is further complicated by the fact that earlier he had told her, "Your nature, your spirit, your 'goodness', must be an influence in the development of this child."

A whole lot of self-identified 'goodness' has been bandied about on Lost.

AChristianShephard

07-11-09, 04:29 AM

One of the best episodes in the shows history and one that has spawned an awful lot of discussion over the years.

I'm 95% confident that Malkin knew what he was doing by getting Claire on 815. The whole dialogue of Claire and Charlie coming to the realisation that 'he knew' would make no sense whatsoever if that wasn't the case.

The story was cleverly set-up to make you think you'd been conned.

Did we see Jacob visiting Claire in Season 5's final?
I cant remember.

The only question for me is if Malkin is a psychic or wether he works for Jacob or Ilana, I think to suggest that its a coincidence that he put Claire on 815 is pure folly.

Please educate me if you disagree.

I too am looking forward to the meeting with Eko, doesnt he meet Rose and Bernard too? Or is that something different?

10/10 bonafide classic.

ZIA

07-11-09, 04:33 AM

I don't know if anyone disagrees or not, It's just that so many words don't make sense in the context that they're presented. How do all of the pens not work when Claire is trying to sign the adoption papers? Where did that come from? How would whoever know she was pregnant when it was 2 days later (close? three days?) when she visited Malkin. Was her fabulous (sarcastic) boyfriend in on it too?

Oh, btw> :makeout:

ozanna

07-11-09, 05:11 AM

Young James Ford's pen doesn't work when Jacob visits him at his parent's funeral. So Jacob gives him a pen ..... coincidence or - not. And the pen works.

Shep, I don't remember seeing Jacob visiting Claire, but I somehow get the idea that there is some connection between Jacob, Christian, Jack - Malkin appeared to be the pawn who was being used by - someone. Actually I have no real idea, but I'm hoping that we can find something !

ZIA

07-11-09, 06:33 AM

Malkin seemed really paranoid when he was confronted by Mr. Eko too. I really do want to watch both of those episodes back-to-back.

AChristianShephard

07-11-09, 11:44 AM

How would whoever know she was pregnant when it was 2 days later (close? three days?) when she visited Malkin.

Oh, btw> :makeout:

Good point, i'd imagine the possibility of a tip-off ahead of time, the same way Richard knew to visit Lockes birth or Locke knew to get Richard to help himself with the gunshot wound. These examples have been explained already though, we may find the timelines re-united at the very beginning of Season 6 which would make that explanation complicated unless told through flashback/forward.
:Hugglepounce:

So Jacob gives him a pen ..... coincidence or - not. And the pen works.

I somehow get the idea that there is some connection between Jacob, Christian, Jack - Malkin appeared to be the pawn who was being used by - someone. !

That Pen moment for young Sawyer was definitely a nod to Claires episode, we have Claires destiny being influenced by the Island right there and it was one of the first times we saw the Island directly influence outside of its own sphere.

I'd forgotten the Shephard influence, yes the family lifeline has spread to Aaron too, that family has a lot to answer for.

One for Ozzy too --> :Hugglepounce:

I have a sneaky feeling that M.I.B. was prepping Aaron for possible possession, maybe a backup loophole.
Thoughts?

ZIA

07-15-09, 03:22 AM

I have a sneaky feeling that M.I.B. was prepping Aaron for possible possession, maybe a backup loophole.
Thoughts?

All of this time later, and I haven't given Aaron another thought after season one, which is a little odd because of all of the emphasis that was place on the Aaron storyline back then. (Here.) It seems like Aarons' importance has diminished so much since then, doesn't it? So far anyway, TPTB could easily pull another fast one.

AChristianShephard

07-15-09, 12:03 PM

Oh darling, have faith, we won't be let down :bluesbro:

I thought Aaron was brought back in the picture a little bit with the set up of the separation then Kate returning to find his mother, no?

ZIA

07-15-09, 01:53 PM

Yes, I agree. I thought about that, but it was done in such a way that it could be misconstrued at this point for closing the page on the Aaron story, and just giving the audience some kind of closure. It kind of feels like, Ok, here's what happened to Aaron, and now Kate is free to go back to the Island, AND she did the right thing without failing this time, so maybe it marks another new chapter in Kates' life as well?

AChristianShephard

07-15-09, 03:23 PM

Yeah their definitely trying to turn Kate around but with the 2 boys both single again I don't fancy her chances much until s06 finale where she retires to the caves with Jack.

Claire re-uniting with Aaron is gonna have a major influence on the show somehow though, I can feel it in my bones. :stare: