Hiatus Rewatch#3 (07/01/09-07/07/09)-S1E17: In Translation

[Brian]

This is the discussion thread for the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch - Season 1 Episode 17 , "...In Translation"

Written by : Javier Grillo-Marxuach & Leonard Dick

The original (or as close to original as exists) thread for this episode can be found here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6153).

General questions about the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch can be posted in the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37370).

Episode Description:

When the raft catches fire, Michael accuses Jin. In order to save him from being beaten, Sun must reveal to Jin that she speaks English.

[11Rooster11]

Another great episode!:clap:

Like many episodes back from season 1 the perspective has changed drastically. I'm not sure that this shift is more apparent than it is right here.

Up until this episode the general idea was tha Jin was a disaster as a husband and as a man. Seeing the scene in the bathroom from his side changed that a little, but he still goes back to being the bad guy when he rejects Sun's offer to start fresh. I'm still not sure I understand why he made that choice. I guess he thought getting her of the island was the best thing he could do for the marriage, but why not explain that right there?

Knowing what we know now, Sun's reaction and expression takes on a whole new meaning in the bathroom. In season 1 it appeared to be a combination of fear, shock and disbelief. Knowing that she's responsible for Jin's new line of work makes it seem like there's some guilt & regret in her expression in place of the disbelief. Maybe I'm wrong...

I think Jin may be my favorite character. Despite that first impression we gradually come to realize that Jin's only true devotion is to Sun. He'd do anything for her, including sell his soul to the devil. Sometimes he crosses the line and becomes overprotective, but Sun is the only thing in his life that is a source of pride. He is one of the kindest people on the island but his love for his wife combined with her decisions has twisted him to something he loathes. Maybe I like him so much because the writers simply can't screw up his dialoge? :tapedshut Sun and Jin love each other very much but they compromise their relationship with a lack of honesty that stems from trying to protect each other.

John again seems to do NO wrong in season 1, never gives bad advice and seems spot on. The chat with Walt was good. John seems to genuinely care for and appreciate the kid. Answering Walt's question about his father was great foreshadowing.

Sayid and Shannon were good together as well. Shannon had some pretty good comedic delivery, the line about the rope and tying knots was a riot. I kinda miss her. There I said it. :ashamed: She was actually a more interesting character than Boone IMO.

Once again a very small of dose of Jack results in a high quality episode. Coincidence?...
... I don't think so.

[Locke 'n' Load]

Michael is such a hot-head. He jumped to the conclusion that Jin was the one who burned the raft. There are other Losties who don't care for Michael, but I guess he is unaware of that.

I don't understand the nickname that Sawyer used for Sun. He called her "Betty" during the confrontation between Michael and Jin. I think it was after she said her husband doesn't lie.

Very interesting was Locke's comment: "Why would anyone of us block an attempt to get home?" Funny!

[GardenMom]

I don't understand the nickname that Sawyer used for Sun. He called her "Betty" during the confrontation between Michael and Jin. I think it was after she said her husband doesn't lie.

There was a tv game show in the 70's called "The Liar's Club" and actress Betty White was one of the panelists. The panelists were shown a painting or some other object, and they would make up a story about it. One panelist would actually give the truthful answer and the contestant would have to guess which panelist was telling the truth. So I thought Sawyer was making a reference to Sun lying.

[ozanna]

GardenMom I think we had a show like that in Britain before I moved over to Oz. This would tie in with Sawyer and his pop culture, the picture of a lonely little boy living with some relative who barely tolerated him, spending far too much time watching TV. There was also mention, to Kate I think, of when he was laid up in bed for weeks with mono in a trailer park. He missed a lot of school and watched a lot of TV. He obviously liked to read a lot, and still does. Whatever his faults, you've got to like a guy who reads !

[ozanna]

In Jin and Sun's fb we start to get a bit of understanding of Jin. He is the son of a poor fisherman who falls in love with the daughter of a wealthy businessman, Mr Paik. When he asks for Sun's hand in marriage he tells Mr. Paik he is ambitious. He also tells him his father is dead - is he ashamed of him ? He tells Mr. Paik he would be prepared to do anything for Sun, even work for him. Mr. Paik asks why he would want to sell his dreams so easily, to which Jin replies "She is my dream, Sir" and they shake hands.

Back on the island Jin and Sun are obviously conflicted and arguing, and the other losties are getting concerned. Michael has been interfering when he thinks that Jin is going over the top with Sun, and Kate has been asking Sun why she puts up with his domineering behaviour.

Meanwhile on the beach Shannon surprises Sayid by demonstrating her knot tying talents. Shannon says she used to date guys with sailboats.
They actually start flirting ! Shannon is improving !

Michael is working away on his raft, trying to get Walt enthusiastic about his architecture but Walt is really not too interested. Jack comes along and praises Michael on his progress, asks who is going. Michael tells him that apart from himself and Walt and Jin, Sawyer has paid his "ticket" with some wire. "Good thing I'm a saver not a spender, huh, Doc ?" Jack is less than impressed.

Later that evening Charlie announces excitedly that the raft is on fire. Mike is distraught while Locke is looking on - maybe this is where he got the idea for blowing up the sub from ! Michael accuses Jin but Sun says he definitely didn't do it. She later finds him at the caves looking for ointment for a burnt hand.

In their next fb you get the idea that Jin is doing his best not only to keep Mr. Paik happy, but also Sun. He promises her they will eventually have a honeymoon. Meanwhile he has been given the job of visiting the Environment Officer for causing an accident with regard to some defctive machinery, and telling him Mr. Paik is displeased. Mr. Paik has made him his Special Assistant - read Hit Man. During his visit to the man's house, Hurley is seen on the TV winning the lottery, and the lotto girl is one of Sawyers floozies !

Back on the island Sayid is trying to get Boone's blessing to date Shannon. Boone is not encouraging. Sayid suggest to Shannon that she is spending too much time with him, and she goes stomping off to poor old Boone, but instead finds Locke gutting rats "choice !" She tells Locke to advise Boone to stay out of her business. He asks her if she likes Sayid, and then says that everyone has a chance to start a new life (tabula rasa)so take it and stop encouraging Boone to be her puppy dog.

Sawyer is seen following Jin into the jungle - "You messed up my ride, Chief". He then drags a beaten Jin back to camp to face the music.

Back to fb - Sun has made a festive meal for Jin and he promises to stay home for the night, Sun says "thank you". But the 'phone rings and Jin reluctantly goes to do his boss's bidding. He goes to the house of Han, the Environment Officer, to give him a lesson. He beats Han up and tells the man who was with him "He got the message". When Jin gets home he tries to hide the blood on his hands but Sun notices it and asks about it. Jin says he does what he's told, but he does it for them.

Back on the beach everyone is accusing Jin and arguing. Jack is trying to stop Michael attacking Jin but again we see Sawyer and Sayid ganging up on Jack and saying let them work it out between themselves. Suddenly Sun calls out "Stop. He didn't burn your raft".

Charlie - "You speak English !"

Hurley - "Didn't see that coming !"

Sun tells Michael Jin was trying to put out the fire - hes no liar. Sawyer says why should they believe her, it appears that her husband didn't even know that she spoke English. Everyone wanders off. Michael and Walt say they will build another raft.

Last fb from Jin sees him walking down a pier and talking to a man who turns out to be his father, a humble fisherman. He asks Jin about his wife, and Jin tells him she is beautiful, and appologizes for being ashamed of him. He says they are going to Sydney to deliver some watches to Mr. Paik's associates, and they want to start a new life. Jin's father gives them his blessing.

On the beach, Sayid and Shannon share a kiss, and she says she is ready to start her new life.

Walt and Locke are at the caves playing backgammon while Michael is at the beach. Walt asks Locke if he has a dad and if he likes him. Locke says he does but he's not a nice man. Ain't that the truth ! Locke asks Walt why he burnt the raft and Walt says because he didn't want to move away again, he likes living on the island.

Back at the beach Michael is working on the raft, Jin comes up with some bamboo and gives it to Michael. "Boat....."

Twice now Sawyer has been seen handing out rough justice - "New sheriff in town........." :confused:

[Darkrogue]

I think my favorite scene in this entire episode was the one on the beach where we hear the sounds of everyone shouting, only from Jin’s point of view (the voices are distorted to mimic how it sounds to him). That scene effectively gives us an idea what it is like for him, and how helpless and alone he must feel not knowing what anyone around him is saying. To think Sun could have spared him a lot of hardship and persecution by coming out and admitting her knowledge of the language sooner.

This one really boosted my sympathy for Jin (I hated him early in the season). A solid episode, as well. I felt sorry for him, still walking around with the broken handcuff attached to him.

We learn Jin gave up his dream for Sun—because she is his dream (aww). I liked how this episode showed us the same scene from a different point of view (similarly to the plane crash scene in the pilot). It was nice to revisit the bloody hands scene knowing what Jin has been through. It places the moment in an entirely different perspective. This was one thing I liked about season one—how the writers were able to play upon our sympathies and cause them to fluctuate.

More examples of “strong” Kate: she bonds with Sun, and expresses her concern about Sun being with a man she perceives as controlling. Of course Sun explains to Kate that she doesn’t know the whole story. ;)

Again, the losties display mob mentality: they’re about to lynch poor Jin on a suspicion, but no proof. Sometimes these people remind me of the citizens of Springfield from the Simpsons.

All right, we get it. Walt doesn’t want to leave. I noticed him sort of freaking out and trying (futilely) to douse the fire after he’s realized what problems and tempers his actions have caused. But he still doesn’t speak up, throughout the entire episode. He basically lets Jin take the blame, and only admits to what he’s done in private with Locke, and that’s only because Locke calls him on it. I know he’s just a kid, but damn. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: what a wicked little snot.

Again with the Locke advice, and it’s for Shannon this time.

Sayid and Shannon were good together as well. Shannon had some pretty good comedic delivery, the line about the rope and tying knots was a riot. I kinda miss her. There I said it. :ashamed:

I hated Shannon, and thought she was a selfish bitch. That said, I did like her interaction with Sayid, and I also thought it was stupid for TPTB to kill her, because in doing so they severed both siblings’ story altogether. Not a logical storytelling move, IMO, and it was her demise that made me suspect there was no real narrative rhyme or reason for their big “deaths”. She had a lot more potential to grow after Boone's death, and that was wasted when they offed her.

I like Sawyer, but he is harsh in this one, and lost some points with me (after gaining considerably over the past few episodes).

The scene I mentioned above (the scene with everyone yelling back and forth in unintelligible jibber), finds Sun still standing there, saying nothing, for a very long time. She watches her husband get hit a couple times before she stops it. The result is a very uncomfortable and frustrating moment. I always find myself thinking “say something, dammit!”

Very interesting was Locke's comment: "Why would anyone of us block an attempt to get home?" Funny!

That entire Locke speech is pretty ironic and hilarious, in retrospect, no?

Granted, the moment towards the end with Walt and Michael is nice, and I love Jin’s first use of English (“boat”). An unlikely friendship forged, and father and son are brought closer together. At least something good came from the omen boy’s little pyro stunt, I suppose.

I always wondered why Sun tells Jin she was going to leave him—the most important part of the conversation—in English.

Another interesting revelation: Jin’s father is not a jerk. His mother is, however.

Yet another musical montage—only this one is cut short. I remember wondering when those batteries would go dead. :D

[ZIA]

Damn it! My whole review just got deleted. Starting over.:mad:

I loved this episode!This is a pivotal episode in Season 1- IMO. Relationships are started, bonds are tentatively being formed, and a society is slowly emerging-not exactly all in a good way however.

Darkrogue-I love this scene on the beach too....Lost in translation. It was extremely uncomfortable to live the scene from Jin's pov.

As Rooster11 stated, "knowing what we know now" it is difficult to watch the scenes with Jin and Sun now that our perspective has changed. I remember feeling as if Sun was the victim and we now know that she is a lying bitch!:)

Jin happily gave his life to Paik Industries to be with Sun. It is only in working for Paik that Jin has to compromise his own morality. Jin hates himself for the bad choices that he thinks he made, when in reality, Sun made those choices for him. That leads me to Sun in the bathroom freaking out when she knew exactly what Jin was doing and why he was doing it. Paik told Sun that Jin would pay for the "favor."
Jin and Sun already have HUGE issues in their marriage before the island.

Jin is shamed by Sun speaking English behind his back. I know they're on an Island, but honor is very important to Jin. Then, even worse, Jin is publicly humiliated by Sun on the beach. So, is it any wonder why he didn't/couldn't forgive her?

John Locke was at the top of his game in this episode. He was one of my favorite characters in Season 1. The speech he gave at the beach, "We're not the only people..." was one of Terry O'Quinn's finest moments in the entire show-imo.

I'm with you, Locke 'n Load "Why would any one of us block an attempt to get home?" Uh...okay. I almost choked on my soda when realized Locke said that! :)

I love that "everyone gets a new life on this Island." I just want them to move off in the right direction.

I have to update and say how much I love the Damien Rice song "Delicate" in the end.

...And I can't believe Rooster11 actually said this.:D but it made my day.

Originally Posted by 11Rooster11 http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/images/002/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1692821#post1692821)
Sayid and Shannon were good together as well. Shannon had some pretty good comedic delivery, the line about the rope and tying knots was a riot. I kinda miss her. There I said it. :ashamed:


Sorry for rambling...well...

[Unlocke Locke]

I hate subtitles. Its hard to read and watch the action at the same time.

[ZIA]

It is hard! I hate the tape on the bottom of the news too. :)

[catnap]

This was another great episode although it made me uncomfortable in many places - so much violence. And to think Jin beating the Envir. Secretary up so maliciously in front of his family was actually doing them a favor. I guess the dog that the Sec. had given Jin is the one he gave to Sun?

A lot of symbolism in the end with Sun "letting go" of the cover up on the beach after Jin left her.

I liked Shannon and Sayid. There, I said it too!

[11Rooster11]

I liked Shannon and Sayid. There, I said it too!

Thank God I'm not alone!:thankyous

[ZIA]

Thank God I'm not alone!:thankyous
Lol!!:D

[ozchick]

I thought it was interesting that after our very first glimpse of Mr. Paik, there was a very prominent shot of his watch. Later in the ep, we see Jin looking at the watch that caused the initial trouble with Michael.

I couldn't remember if the bathroom scene was so shaky with handheld camera work the first time we saw it. I'll have to check, but I don't think so. The camera work really brings out what Jin is feeling in the scene.

I love the shot of Sun in the bikini throwing off the towel at the end of this ep. Very powerful.

Sawyer nicknames:
Doc: Jack
Chief: Jin
Bruce: Jin
Betty: Sun

[catnap]

I noticed the showing of Mr. Paik's watch too. Deliberate I'm sure but why? Just a watch reference?

[Hodgepodge]

This episode took the number one position on my S1 ranking post. It is so powerful, seeing it again brought back some fresh memories. Add to that what we know now, makes it that much more powerful.

I'm wondering if TPTB had Sun selling out Jin when this episode aired? I've watched that bathroom scene several times and it seems like she's shocked by Jin's appearance. That slap came from the disgust of being left in the dark. "What do you do for my father?" Yet, we know from her comment to Jin's mother, "You know how powerful my family is. My husband believes that you are dead. Do not force me to make that a reality.", that she knows her father is a ruthless man.

I'd like to pose a question! What does Jin do if he ever found out it was Sun who put him in bed with his father-in-law?

Darkrogue makes a comment about Locke's speech near the end of the episode. Now we know at some point Locke knew it was Walt who actually set the fire. So, was Locke protecting Jin from a further beating?

I've never liked Sayid and Shannon together. I'm reminded of the look Boone gave them as they played with each other. That look in turn, reminds me of Ethan's menacing stare before he kidnapped Charlie and Claire. :eek:

And the scene of Sun releasing the shawl is what I call a "power scene". I'm curious of its meaning. Was she releasing herself of the controlling Jin? Or, something else?

This episode is in the top five all time as far as I'm concerned! :cry:

[ZIA]

I'm wondering if TPTB had Sun selling out Jin when this episode aired? I've watched that bathroom scene several times and it seems like she's shocked by Jin's appearance. That slap came from the disgust of being left in the dark. "What do you do for my father?" Yet, we know from her comment to Jin's mother, "You know how powerful my family is. My husband believes that you are dead. Do not force me to make that a reality.", that she knows her father is a ruthless man.

I'd like to pose a question! What does Jin do if he ever found out it was Sun who put him in bed with his father-in-law?

This episode is in the top five all time as far as I'm concerned! :cry:

Hodge, I had the same thoughts on this. Sun does seem shocked and dismayed about what Jin is actually doing for Paik.

The issue I have is that the timeline is correct. I wonder if the only thing Sun knew is that Jin would pay, not exactly how he would pay. What Jin would do for Paik was only implied (as far as we know.)
It's possible Sun thought that Jin working late was punishment enough because she is Paik's daughter.

Interesting question posed about Jin. Jin is an honest and decent man raised by his brilliant Father. (I love Mr. Kwan!) I think Jin would be disgraced all the way around if he found out for several reasons.
Sun knows about Jin's hooker Mother (I'm being nice calling her a hooker) and Jin thinks she's dead and she knows Mr. Kwan is still alive.

His Mother extorted money from Sun, and Sun's actions have basically turned Jin into a hit-man; all a direct result of his devotion to Sun.

Would Jin be able to recover from that? I don't know, but I wouldn't blame him if he couldn't.

This episode was powerful, inspired and one of my all-time faves too.

[Hodgepodge]

...The issue I have is that the timeline is correct. I wonder if the only thing Sun knew is that Jin would pay, not exactly how he would pay. What Jin would do for Paik was only implied (as far as we know.)
It's possible Sun thought that Jin working late was punishment enough because she is Paik's daughter...Look at the scene from D.O.C., where she asks Mr. Paik for the money.

Mr. Paik [Subtitled] Why should I give you money without an explanation?
Sun [Subtitled] Because my whole life...I've pretended not to know what you do. I've allowed you to keep your control over me. I pretend that everything is alright. I will continue pretending. As long as you give me the money I am asking for. No questions asked.
Mr. Paik [Subtitled] We do not live in a world where there are no questions asked!
Sun [Subtitled] I'm doing this to spare someone I love deep shame.
Mr. Paik [Subtitled] Your new husband?
[Mr. Paik turns, opens the safe behind his desk, takes money from the safe, and places it in an envelope]
Mr. Paik [Subtitled] If the money is for your husband...It is he who will bear this debt. He will no longer be a floor manager. He will be working for me.
[Mr. Paik tosses the envelope on the desk in front of Sun who picks it up and takes it.
Although, it's never stated literally, Sun knew exactly what her father meant. "It is he who will bear this debt. He will no longer be a floor manager. He will be working for me."


...Interesting question posed about Jin. Jin is an honest and decent man raised by his brilliant Father. (I love Mr. Kwan!) I think Jin would be disgraced all the way around if he found out for several reasons.
Sun knows about Jin's hooker Mother (I'm being nice calling her a hooker) and Jin thinks she's dead and she knows Mr. Kwan is still alive.

His Mother extorted money from Sun, and Sun's actions have basically turned Jin into a hit-man; all a direct result of his devotion to Sun.

Would Jin be able to recover from that? I don't know, but I wouldn't blame him if he couldn't...You know, I posed the question but didn't think about an answer until now.

As you mention, Jin is a proud man. Maybe to proud for his own good. We saw what he did when he found out Sun spoke English, he separated from her and moved to the beach.

If he found out the whole story, that his mother was a prostitute and Sun knew before he did. Along with the fact she knew his father wasn't dead. I don't see him being able to save face. I'd say, if he was Japanese, he'd commit Seppuku. Ritual sucide! I don't see him or their relationship recovering from the knowledge. :(

[ZIA]

Look at the scene from D.O.C., where she asks Mr. Paik for the money.

Mr. Paik [Subtitled] Why should I give you money without an explanation?
Sun [Subtitled] Because my whole life...I've pretended not to know what you do. I've allowed you to keep your control over me. I pretend that everything is alright. I will continue pretending. As long as you give me the money I am asking for. No questions asked.
Mr. Paik [Subtitled] We do not live in a world where there are no questions asked!
Sun [Subtitled] I'm doing this to spare someone I love deep shame.
Mr. Paik [Subtitled] Your new husband?
[Mr. Paik turns, opens the safe behind his desk, takes money from the safe, and places it in an envelope]
Mr. Paik [Subtitled] If the money is for your husband...It is he who will bear this debt. He will no longer be a floor manager. He will be working for me.
[Mr. Paik tosses the envelope on the desk in front of Sun who picks it up and takes it.
Although, it's never stated literally, Sun knew exactly what her father meant. "It is he who will bear this debt. He will no longer be a floor manager. He will be working for me."

Wow! I really spaced this conversation out. Thank you for digging it up. Okay, so clearly Sun does know how Jin will pay the debt to Paik, so why does she seem so shocked that Jin had "blood on his hands?"

[ozanna]

Hodgepodge and Zia
I loved reading your comments on "In Translation". When we first saw Jin and Sun, it was almost like they had just been thrown in as the obligatory Asian couple, but as the season progressed I began to really appreciate what the writers had done with them. They really captured the idea of Korean culture. The proud nature of the Korean man, and the little Korean woman who sees all but knows nothing. How devastated Jin would have been had he known of some of Sun's knowlege of his family. What will happen now if they ever get rescued and have to integrate back into Korean society ? Well we'd better worry about that later. Maybe Sawyer's idea about building a resort on the island wasn't such a bad one ! They could all stay there and live happily ever after !

I still think Jin is one of my favourite male characters. He manages to convey so much with no English. This is why he has been inducted into my "Fantastic Four" with Sawyer, Sayid and Hurley. At Claire's childbirth he was so touching - excited and oh so happy ! I really hope he and Sun have a successful birth but you just know they won't.

I can see why its one of your favourites, Hodgepodge.

[Hodgepodge]

...Okay, so clearly Sun does know how Jin will pay the debt to Paik, so why does she seem so shocked that Jin had "blood on his hands?"ZIA, the only thing that makes sense is my initial observation. TPTB hadn't taken their story to the point of her betrayal. And, that's okay. I love what they've done with both characters.

As Ozanna mentions in her last post, we were fed the usual stereotypical portrait of an Asian couple. Domineering man/husband, subservient woman/wife. We all thought Sun could've done better than marrying that overprotective brute of a man. But, I've come to realize, Jin is a pawn in his own life and has no idea who put him in play.


...I still think Jin is one of my favourite male characters. He manages to convey so much with no English. This is why he has been inducted into my "Fantastic Four" with Sawyer, Sayid and Hurley. At Claire's childbirth he was so touching - excited and oh so happy ! I really hope he and Sun have a successful birth but you just know they won't...Oh, he's my favorite character Ozanna. He's honorable and loyal. And, from what we found out in S3, he's pretty good in a fight too. :nanabobo:

[Fletcher]

Honestly, I think it's quite possible that the writers hadn't worked out the "Sun-gets-Jin-his-job" thing, but there are other ways the bathroom scene can be interpreted. Maybe Sun is shocked to see the result of her own actions in front of her in such a brutal way. Her reaction doesn't have to be just because of what Jin has hidden from her-- I think it can also work as her channeling her frustration toward her father, Jin, and herself all towards Jin at that moment.

Okay, I'm not sure if that made any sense, but I think it's possible!

[Hodgepodge]

I understand what you mean Fletcher, and you maybe right. We need a clarifying flashback.

[ZIA]

Ozanna and Hodge, I'm with both of you.

I absolutely love Jin. He is one of my "Fantastic Four" too. His character has developed so much without even speaking English! It's amazing.

[Black Manta]

Honestly, I think it's quite possible that the writers hadn't worked out the "Sun-gets-Jin-his-job" thing, but there are other ways the bathroom scene can be interpreted. Maybe Sun is shocked to see the result of her own actions in front of her in such a brutal way. Her reaction doesn't have to be just because of what Jin has hidden from her-- I think it can also work as her channeling her frustration toward her father, Jin, and herself all towards Jin at that moment.

Okay, I'm not sure if that made any sense, but I think it's possible!

This makes sense. Sun is faced with the reality of what she has forced Jin to become.

[sweetsunray]

Sun and Jin's marriage: imo it is a doomed one. What else, other than attraction is there between them? Neither of them know each other, and they both think that a marriage ought to be perfect, the other should have no faults, and that communication is unnecessary ... that is they both seem to believe that communication would indicate they're not the perfect couple. Well, nobody ever is really.

Jin treats Sun as a child, but she's proven she can take care of herself really if it needs to be done. I wouldn't expect otherwise fom a mobster daughter. And though Sun taking the money from her dad puts her husband on the path of life as a hit-man, its Jin's warped idea of what a husband must do that lets him put his work get in the way with his marriage in the first place. And Paik knows that and abuses it.

What father in law would make his son in law become a hit man because his sole child, his daughter, requested money from him? Paik has money enough. I think Paik would have given Jin a "step up the ladder" with or without Sun's request at some point. But he's just the man who uses the needs of others as an excuse to wipe his hands clean. He likes to abuse people's weaknesses for his own gain and manipulation games and then blame it on them, especially his daughter. I can even understand that Sun, as his daughter, has learned to live in a way so that she refuses to give in to Paik's emotional blackmail. It's her father's choice to punish others for his daughter. He really doesn't need to make Jin into a hit-man, nor did he need to sack the maid for the glass ballerina.

And it's Jin who starts the secretiveness by lying about his father. How can his marriage ever survive if he lies about his father being alive, even though he admits he has a fisherman's background? It's this lie and his pride and feelings of shame that strengthens Sun's resolve not to reveal his mother blackmailing her. If she were to tell that, not only does she shame him for what his mother is, but also has to reveal she knows about his father being alive and that he lied to her. Sun may be a tough nut to crack, but Jin has a lot on himself to blame as well.

Sun? She's definitely her father's daughter. She reminds me of the mobster daughter in Dogville. She wants to be independent from her father, but when it comes down to it she's not afraid to use her father's tactics to get her own way. And much like her father she does like to have her own way. Whether she likes to admit it or not, she's a spoiled brat, and in her own way she lets her father dictate her actions and life (even if she contradicts him).

Of the two, I think Sun knows her husband better than he knows her. Yet she does not give her husband as much credit as he deserves and thinks the worst of him. For me, they're in love with a fantasy of each other.

The theme of doing stuff to protect your loved one: Sun and Jin are the most glaring example of it, but in Lost relations this seems as much a theme as the boogeyman father is. Jack tries to protect Kate by telling her not to come on hikes; Sawyer tells Kate not to come on a hike in S3 and keeps Alactraz island knowledge to himself in the mini-series; Charlie kept Ethan's threat secret from Claire; Sayid originally feels he needs to protect Kate and does not trust Saywer with her alone, but his need of having a woman who needs his help gets diverted to Shannon; Boone wanted to protect Shannon and got conned for it; heck even Bernard wanted to protect Rose and brought her all the way to Oz to see a hocus-pocus healer; Locke makes Charlie into a fool in front of everyone, preferably in front of Claire. Almost every man on that island gets macho protective over women, telling them what to do or not, keeping things from them... They're all Jin in disguises, really. Still, Jin's the worst. At leas the other cavemen still don't tell their women what to wear or not. Strange really, that in S3 only Jack gets flacked for it by the audience, and that in some cases other Lost men are thought as sweet over it. The only one who hasn't shown much of that behaviour was Desmond, but he did even worse: he left his love in the cold out of fear for not being good enough for her.

And yet, most women use that attitude in the Lost men for their own gain. Boone's right about Shannon and Sayid. Sayid needs a woman he can take care of, who's a damsel in distress, and Shannon is perfectly alright with taking that part for herself. Shannon used Boon's protectiveness to acquire money. Kate used Jack's protectiveness to acquire the toyplane. Sun certainly uses Jin's protectiveness and her father's habbit of not punishing his daughter directly to get her own way. I think deep down our spoiled brat likes it that she has a man who would do everything for her, even if it means having him order her around what she can or cannot wear. But at least in her marriage she learned that comes with a price: a husband who isn't home much, doesn't take her on a honeymoon and beats people up. Juliet uses Jack's protectiveness as a cover to do her stuff in the Losty camp. And Claire uses Locke to create a distance between her and Charlie. Niki uses Paolo for the diamonds, ...

I think of the women, only Rose hasn't abused her husband's protectiveness... is that because she is an older woman who knows better? Or is that because we haven't seen much of Rose and Bernard. Libby was shot before she could use Hurley (or perhaps she already did, but we don't know because we need a fb for that). And Ana Lucia didn't use anyone's protectiveness (although she used Sawyer's lusts), probably because nobody liked her that well enough or didn't feel she needed protection.

Quite a rabble really, our Losties when you think about it. Either they're all cavemen with a clubber or they're tied-up-Jane's crying for Tarzan to come to the rescue. Wonder what the male viewers think of this general portrayal of Lost men. Can you sympathize with them? Or don't you agree with men being portrayed as such? How about us women? Do we come across it often, experienced it, and did we use it for our own purposes at some point?

Michael and Walt: what a naive man he is, isn't he? "My kid, golden kid" really.

Locke: How did Locke know? Well an astute observer would have noticed Walt's reaction which did reek of guilt imo. And Locke could have noticed the tracks. We weren't shown that to know for sure, because we needed to think it was Jin instead of Walt. And how much we all fell for him blaming the Others, even though we didn't know them as the Others yet. He can lie teriffically, can't he?

By itself, on a rewatch I didn't find this episode really moving the story along, but mostly rearranged the relationships. Jin and Sun go live apart, Walt finally wants to help his dad with the raft, Jin starts to involve himself with the other Losties (more than giving them fish once in a while). Of course the previous epi didn't move the story along either.

[Locke 'n' Load]

I think of the women, only Rose hasn't abused her husband's protectiveness... is that because she is an older woman who knows better? Or is that because we haven't seen much of Rose and Bernard. Libby was shot before she could use Hurley (or perhaps she already did, but we don't know because we need a fb for that). And Ana Lucia didn't use anyone's protectiveness (although she used Sawyer's lusts), probably because nobody liked her that well enough or didn't feel she needed protection.

When Bernard wanted to make the SOS sign on the beach Rose belittled him in front of the others. She wanted to stay and he wanted to get her (and himself) rescued. Rose indeed abused her husband's protectiveness. So, they are batting 1000, our Losties.

[sweetsunray]

When Bernard wanted to make the SOS sign on the beach Rose belittled him in front of the others. She wanted to stay and he wanted to get her (and himself) rescued. Rose indeed abused her husband's protectiveness. So, they are batting 1000, our Losties.


I agree that she belittled him in front of everyone else, but I don't see that as abusing his protectiveness for herself. When I mean abuse the protectiveness I do mean seemingly going along or being ok with a Lost man's protectiveness, being a willing cooperant, but for something warped. Kate running to Jack to have him acquire the key and case for her is a perfect example, Shannon conning Boone out of his money as well. But in the example you give, Rose clearly opposes Bernard's intentions and plans, and is not a willing cooperant in his plans.

ETA: other observations...

Sayid's stance in the fight: I notice again how Sayid's voice has an influence on Jack. And I notice too how Sayid in general tends to think violence towards people guilty before tried is a defendable solution. And he's proven wrong again. Hmm, will Sayid once again, take a step away from his sergeant position because of this, in the coming episodes? I believe he does.

Sawyer: well he can be very nasty too when accusing others. He uses the torture card often towards Sayid and Jack, and is especially stubborn when people think he's guilty of something without thought. But he has no distaste of applying similar tactics towards others of his fellow men. He jumped Sayid in the pilot, and now he enjoys the prospect of Jin being beaten up by Michael and the Lord of the Flies events. He's not really all that consistent, is he?

[jane_eire]

All kinds of mirrors in this episode. Jin's shared flashback with Sun has to be the most significant, and demonstrates aptly the consistent use of limited POV in the flashback scenes.

[jane_eire]

Oh, I almost forgot the other mirror shots.

[ZIA]

Jane eris: Your mirror observations are so interesting. I never would have thought to notice the things you do.
Thank you! :)
Zia

[ZIA]

LOST Hiatus Rewatch: Week 6, Weds., July 1st-7th
2009
S:1 E:17: In Translation

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/zia29112/LOST%20Stuff/300px-Lost-season1.jpg

[World Walker]

Mr. Paik’s acceptance of Jin’s marriage proposal is in direct contrast to Desmond’s failed attempt involving Mr. Widmore.

Jin still has a ways to go before he’s the loveable character we all adore.

Sun slapping Michael for protecting her was really harsh, but it did accomplish what she intended – to end a potential brawl.

The banter between Sayid and Shannon made me laugh. The thing that did it the most was the grin on Sayid’s face after Shannon’s rope comment. Shannon was never one of my favorite characters and I didn’t really miss her after she died, but I gotta admit she did grow a bit and develop since the crash. For some reason this is more apparent to me now than it was on my previous rewatches.

Goodbye Raft #1, we barely knew ya! Something interesting to note: as the survivors run toward the fire, the camera lingers on Locke; this makes us think that he had something to do with the sabotage, but it turned out to be subtly clever misdirection.

Hahahaha! Forgot the big ‘ol Hurley footage on the television. I bet people were going nuts speculating why he was on TV a week before his flashback aired. :nanabobo:

Ah, there’s how Jin got the dog. Later we’ll see why his hands were all bloody, too. I love how this episode is a perfect companion to House of the Rising Sun earlier in the season. The missing information this episode provides is critical and completely changes the viewer’s perceptions of Jin.

That was cool how in the beach confrontation they simulated the yelling as gibberish to Jin’s ears. Poor Jin has got to be closest thing we have in Season 1 to Ben Linus; he’s getting beaten like a piñata! :ouch:

Locke: “Why would any one of us block an attempt to get home?” Again, I reiterate how wily Locke was in the days of Season 1.

Man, that’s a heart-wrenching scene when Jin is leaving the caves and Sun admits she was going to leave him in English. Jin’s decision to leave her is a huge contrast to Season 4 when he decides to stay with her, wholly devoted, after learning of her infidelity. Great character development!

I really like Jin’s father; he’s a good guy. I know it’s a culture thing and that his father is poor, but I wouldn’t be ashamed of him at all.

You know, it’s a shame we never got to see Hurley pay Walt his $83,000 from the backgammon games. Obviously, this kind of thing isn't all that important to the story, but that could’ve been a cool wink at Season 1.

Walt liked it on the Island. Was he supposed to stay there? Grow up there? Why was Ben so focused on booting him off?

And now we have the fourth, and if I’m not mistaken, final corny montage of Season One. I really do like how the music dies at the end as the batteries run out. Very creative and immersive!

That’s a beautifully shot scene with Sun near the shore at the end. :Cheers:

[Dew]

Wow! I forgot how many lickings Jin can take and keep on ticking. He never seems to fight back. He is really ticked with Sun however his father told him to go to America and start over with his wife and when Sun asks Jin that they start over he leaves and says nothing. Frak him Sun. His loss!

Bye bye raft. Bad boy Walt. Jin gets a beating he didn't deserve because of you young man. :mad:

[ozanna]

OK, so Jin was not exactly Mr. Nice Guy at this point in time. But as we get further into the episode its not hard to see that he has his hands full with Sun.

He adores Sun, and tells her Daddy that he is prepared to work for him if he will allow her to marry him. Mr. Paik accepts, and Jin tells him that he would do anything for Sun.
He has just sold his soul to the Devil. Mr. Paik asks Jin where his father is, and Jin lies that his father is dead. In reality he is a poor but honest fisherman.

When they first arrive on the beach, Jin and Sun have always kept themselves aloof from everyone else, and he was quite domineering but also very caring. He treats his wife like a "Glass Ballerina".

Jin suffers from isolation. How sneaky of Sun not to tell Jin she could speak English - but of course she didn't want him to know .

Michael should have just kept out of Sun and Jin's business - obviously him getting all proprietorial over Sun was not appreciated - it would be like a red rag to a bull as far as Jin is concerned.

So why does Walt set fire to the raft ? Because he wants to stay on the island. :D

[abcdxyz]

Ah, there’s how Jin got the dog. Later we’ll see why his hands were all bloody, too. I love how this episode is a perfect companion to House of the Rising Sun earlier in the season. The missing information this episode provides is critical and completely changes the viewer’s perceptions of Jin.

And to make it even more dimensional, we then learn two more things about this in D.O.C. in S3. First, we learn that the reason Jin became Mr. Paik's enforcer was that Sun had asked her father for the money to pay off Jin's mother. And the other thing is that Jin's father had already met Sun, when she came to see him early in their marriage. So Mr. Kwon, when he is talking to Jin in this ep, already knows that Jin lied about his being dead and that he is married to the beautiful, but headstrong, Sun.

[AChristianShephard]

Wow, Sun is one manipulative <snip>!

To add to what WW said bout the batteries running out at the end, I also thought it was clever that there was no 'swoosh' to go with the 'L O S T' logo. Very clever.

Its suprising how little happens in these episodes in terms of moving the main story along, its genious, though ultimately drove some people away.

Its almost told as a series of short films.

Lock still pwns.

No surprises or mysteries, but we have sun in a bathing suit, twice.
8/10