View Full Version : LOST Hiatus Rewatch #3 (07/08/09-07/14/09)-S1E19 : Deus Ex Machina
This is the discussion thread for the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch - Season 1 Episode 19 , "Deus Ex Machina"
Written by : Carlton Cuse & Damon Lindelof
The original (or as close to original as exists) thread for this episode can be found here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6155).
General questions about the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch can be posted in the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37370).
Episode Description:
Locke and Boone try to open the hatch. They discover a beechcraft after Locke has a vision. Sawyer begins having headaches.
We start with a fb of Locke working in a department store, explaining his favourite game, Mouse Trap, to a young kid. He used to play it with his brother. Is this a blood brother, or a foster brother from one of his foster homes ? A woman comes up and asks him where the footballs are. She is Emily, his mother.
Back on the island Locke is at the hatch wiping dirt off the glass, and telling Boone he must have faith. Boone is looking sceptical. They have made a trebuchet which is put in place. They release the arm but it falls and breaks without leaving a mark on the glass. Boone notices a piece of metal sticking out of Locke's leg - Locke attends to it and realizes he has no feeling in the leg. They attempt to fix the trebuchet, and Locke tells Boone that if it doesn't work the Island will tell them what to do.
Fb2 sees Locke in the parking lot. He finds a flyer with a lost dog on it -
Could this be the golden retriever connected with his mother ? He sees the woman from the store watching him and asks her who she is. She says she is his mother, which confuses Locke as he thought he was an orphan. She tells him he is very special and a part of great things to come. Locke asks about his father, and she tells him he doesn't have a father, he is the son of God !
Back on the island Sawyer is at Sun's garden trying to get some advice on what leaves to take for a bad headache. Kate come is and asks whats wrong, but he ignores her and walks away. So she asks Sun, who tells her and then Kate goes off to tell Jack. Jack says he won't go to Sawyer unless he asks him himself because its just a waste of time. Fair enough !
Back in the jungle Locke and Boone are still bickering. Locke - "Don't tell me what I can't do". There is the sound of a small plane sounding like it is going to crash. There is a sudden shot of Boone, covered in blood, and a shot of Emily pointing at something. Boone - "Theresa falls up the stairs, Theresa falls down the stairs etc. etc." Locke is back in his wheelchair, his mother pointing in the background. Locke is saying "No, no, no please..."
He falls out of his wheelchair - "Don't take it back" I guess he's talking about the feeling in his legs.
That night Locke wakes up, frightened, from a dream, feeling for his legs. He wakes Boone and tells him to go with him.
Fb3 sees Locke talking to a PI named Frainey at work. He has been trying to find out about his mother. She is 99% certain to be his mother and has been institutionalized for schizophrenia. He tells Locke his father doesn't want to know, and sometimes this can be traumatic for all concerned. But Locke insists on knowing.
Locke goes to his fathers house. His name is Anthony Cooper, and he is obviously well to do. He lets Locke in and they have a drink and a slightly awkward conversation. Cooper asks about Emily and Locke tells him about the immaculate conception conversation. Cooper laughs and says that must make him God ! He has had no recent contact with her. He invites Locke to go hunting with him next week.
Back at the hatch Locke tells Boone they have to go to the plane to get help.
On the beach Jack is talking to Michael and Jin at the raft and sees Sawyer with a damp cloth over his head. He asks him whats wrong. Sawyer tells him about the headache, and that he had an uncle died of a brain tumor - "The type that kills you". Jack tries to probe further but Sawyer cuts him off "My insurance ran out, Doc". Jack leaves with Sawyer sniffing the air, in response to Jack's question about smelling anything strange, like burning.
Locke and Boone are walking in the jungle when Locke falls. He pulls on a vine to help pull himself up and a body falls to the ground.
Fb4 - Locke goes to Cooper's house for the hunting trip and finds Cooper on a dialysis machine. He tells Locke it won't take long and they can go and have lunch and then go shoot some birds.
Back on the island Boone and Locke are examining the body from the beechcraft. He is a Nigerian priest with a big bundle of Nigerian money and a gun.
Back at the beach Sawyer is looking miserable, snarling at some redshirts making a noise. Kate comes along and demands he goes to see Jack. "Do I get a lollipop ?" They go to Jack's "surgery" at the caves and Jack starts to examine him, and Sawyer asks if Kate has to be there. She stays put and continues to butt in on Jack's questions. The final straw is when Jack asks Sawyer if he has ever had sex with a prostitute, or contracted a STD. Sawyer tells Jack to go to hell, and walks out. Kate say "I know he deserved it but ....." and sniggers. Actually, Kate he didn't deserve it. No matter how badly behaved he is, he's in pain. he's scared, and he has no where else to turn. I think Jack's "Oath" is more hypocritic than Hypocratic. Sawyer had to seriously swallow his pride even to go there.
Jack and Kate reminded me of 2 smart ass high school jerks taking the piss out of the guy from the wrong side of the tracks. Jack tells Kate Sawyer needs glasses.
Locke and Boone are walking in the jungle, Locke falls a few times, and explains to Boone that when they crashed on the island he had been paralyzed for 4 years and had been in a wheel chair. The island had given him back his legs, and now they needed to get into the hatch.
Fb5 of Locke and Cooper hunting. Locke shoots a duck.
Back on the island Locke and Boone are resting, and Boone tells him the story of Theresa. She was his nanny and Boone resented the fact that his mother couldn't look after him herself. So he used to sit in his room on the top floor of the house and keep calling her up. One day she fell down (or up) the stairs and broke her neck.
Locke looks up and sees the Beechcraft on a cliff. Boone climbs up to look inside.
Fb6 - Cooper and Locke are in hospital preparing for a kidney transplant, which Cooper has evidently talked Locke into. Cooper says it is not too late to change his mind, but Locke tells him it was meant to be. Cooper says "See you on the other side, son...."In "The Brig" he seemed to think he was dead. Maybe the transplant eventually failed and he died.
On the beach Jack approaches Sawyer with a box full of glasses and tells him he has hyperopoeia - he's far sighted. Sayid has welded different sides of different glasses to each other to make one pair. Sawyer tries some on discarding some of the dorkier looking ones. "Sawyer its not a fashion show". Hurley walks past and mutters "Dude, looks like somebody steamrolled Harry Potter". Jack and Kate laugh, Sawyer looks pissed off.
Sayid is the only one who appears to treat Sawyer with any kind of respect.
Back at the plane Boone finds a Virgin Mary statue which he throws down to Locke. It breaks open to reveal its full of heroin. He then finds the radio and hears static. The plane starts to topple and Locke yells to Boone to get out, but Boone starts talking into the radio which responds with "We are the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815". Boone repeats it, and the plane falls crushing Boone. Locke slings him over his shoulder and carries him back to the caves, where Jack and Kate are discussing Sawyer. She asks Jack about Sawyer's latest outbreak, presumably meaning from his STD, what is it with her, its really nothing to do with her, she hasn't had sex with him - yet. She thanks Jack and he says he didn't do it for him. I know Kate means well and cares for Sawyer in her own way, but she is so blatantly
nosey !!!! I think Jack reeally enjoyed humiliating Sawyer. Then Locke comes tottering in with a bloodsoaked, badly injured Boone
Fb7 sees Locke waking up in hospital after the transplant. Cooper has gone home to receive private care. Emily enters and says it was Cooper's idea to tell Locke that he didn't have a father, as he wanted Locke to think it was his idea to donate the kidney. Emily needed money so she went along with the story. Locke is distressed. Later he drives to Cooper's house but he won't see him. "Give me back my kidney !" So sad.
Back on the island Locke is at the hatch crying out "I have done everything you asked me to do. So why did you do this to me ?"
A light goes on in the hatch.
I really felt for Locke in this episode, he was conned by the best, or worse.
Locke 'n' Load
08-14-07, 01:50 AM
Deus Ex Machina
Things I hated about this episode:
Anthony Cooper and Emily Locke-sorry excuses for parents or even human beings. Perhaps Emily is more to be pitied, but when she’s on her meds she is okay (according to the PI), so she made a choice to help Cooper con her own son out of a body part.
Thing I didn’t like about this episode:
Kate being so nosy regarding Sawyer, first with Sun (headache remedies) and then with Jack (before and after Jack examines Sawyer).
Locke lying about how Boone was injured and then taking off. IMO he was too concerned about not getting an answer about the hatch and not concerned enough about his partner Boone. I was disappointed in my man Locke for the first time!
Things I liked about this episode:
Great line:
LOCKE: Jack wouldn't know the first thing about what's wrong with me.
Things I loved about this episode:
Finding out about Locke and his desperate need for a father-figure. I love the difference in him from then to now. He is really a man now, but I felt that he was a sad little boy before the island.
Things I wondered about in this episode:
Was the Private Investigator in on the con?
Wouldn’t the dossier he had on Cooper reveal that he was a con man if it was a true investigation? Why did he act hesitant about giving the dossier to Locke?
What brother did Locke play Mouse Trap with?
Just a couple of things I forgot to mention. So where did Locke get his hunting skills from ? He only had one shot at it with Cooper.
Jack (and Kate) being so scornful over Sawyer and his "sex with a prostitute". Jack sort of giving the impression that he is far too noble to ever sink to such depths of depravity. Can I just mention Bali ...... and a certain rather dubious female by the name of Bai Ling. He certainly wasn't taking crochet classes with her !
Also the "sex with a prostitute" thing and possibility of an STD certainly didn't seem to deter Kate from any future hook ups !
Darkrogue
08-14-07, 11:09 AM
I grew frustrated with Locke in this episode as well. His obsession has grown dangerous to himself and those around him (I’m going to throw out the word “megalomaniac” again, here.)
He seems almost potentially violent in his insistence, and this begins to be increasingly apparent after the trebuchet incident.
That said, I really felt sympathetic for him at the same time. That's a hell of a raw deal, not only to be conned by your own father, but to have him take something so intimate from you. To have him gain your trust and then wrench it all away--man. There is a reason I had no sorrow whatsoever when Cooper met his end. If anyone ever richly deserved to be savagely murdered, it's Anthony Cooper.
Anyone else, upon their first viewing, get worried after hearing the line that Locke was “immaculately conceived”? My initial reaction was “Oh please. Next thing we know his miraculous recovery will involve Midi-chlorians.” Glad it didn't turn out that way, I am. :Cheers:
I guess we can conclude that Locke harbors the mother of all Daddy Issues. Honestly. This was also the episode that launched the “Cooper is the real Sawyer” speculation. Well, what do you know?
Another thing that frustrates me: Boone finally begins to show more balls/attitude in this episode. I genuinely enjoyed him here, which of course means he won’t be around much longer.
We do learn that he was apparently a monster-brat as a child. That’s not too much of a surprise, really. Still, it’s a weird piece of backstory to reveal right before killing the character, somehow.
In retrospect, Locke’s dream is simultaneously freaky and cheesy. Still, it might have been nice if Locke had informed Boone that he was just a little bit mangled and bloodied in said dream. Come to think of it, Locke shouldn’t have even sent Boone into that plane after what he saw. Yeah, yeah, destiny, blah blah.
I like the brief Michael/Jin raft stuff.
Sawyer’s glasses: a very long way to go for a Harry Potter joke.
The prostitute/STD exchange really solidified my dislike for Jack once and for all. He and Kate remind me of a couple of grade school kids snickering at the unpopular boy in that scene, and it is rather off-putting. This was when my sympathies were basically cemented with Sawyer in terms of his relationship with these two.
Oh, good. More heroin. :rolleyez:
I wonder why they dropped that into the jungle.
My favorite dialogue in the episode?
Jack: What type of tumor was it?
Sawyer: The type that kills ya.
:D
Locke lying about how Boone was injured and then taking off. IMO he was too concerned about not getting an answer about the hatch and not concerned enough about his partner Boone. I was disappointed in my man Locke for the first time!
Yeah, Locke sort of seems to have slid off the deep end by now. It's a disquieting contrast from the man who has given so much helpful advice to the other Losties. At the same time, he does have a history of behavior that is somewhat erratic and potentially harmful to them as well (using an unwitting Charlie as boar bait; clocking Sayid on the head and leaving him there, then purposely shifting the blame to Sawyer; knocking Boone out and spreading wacky paste on his noggin). It really isn't too surprising if these things are considered.
I did enjoy learning more about his family (or lack thereof). Anthony Cooper is the epitome of "piss-poor father figure", and his mother is a nut job. I wonder if he inherited some of her craziness? :D
I wondered as well if the PI was somehow in on the con. His dialogue was strange--why would he say the things he said if he didn't know Cooper was a con man?
I always assumed the brother he played Mouse Trap with was a child in the foster home he mentioned.
Just a couple of things I forgot to mention. So where did Locke get his hunting skills from ? He only had one shot at it with Cooper.
Jack (and Kate) being so scornful over Sawyer and his "sex with a prostitute". Jack sort of giving the impression that he is far too noble to ever sink to such depths of depravity.
Gah. Thailand and tattoos. Yeah. That was the first thought I had re-watching that scene.
I thought maybe Locke acquired the extra hunting skills from his readings about the Walkabout. He seemed to have tons of material, as though he had done extensive research to prepare for the journey.
ozchick
08-14-07, 11:11 PM
Most people here seemed to not enjoy the Jack - Sawyer (with Kate on the sidelines) scene. I might be an awful person, but I think that scene is hysterical. Don't get me wrong, I love Sawyer, but he's been a bully and obnoxious, and I think (at this point in the story) he deserved to get taken down a peg.
I've found what I believe to be a continuity error, but please correct me if I am wrong. When Locke and Boone are searching for the plane, Locke consults a compass. I thought Locke gave that compass to Sayid, but I've looked in my notes, and can't figure out what episode it is. But I believe Locke said he didn't need it anymore.
I got the impression that Locke and Cooper had been hunting several times, even though we only saw one of them. When Locke turns up before seeing the dialysis, Eddie, the gate attendant, said something like "going to shoot some birds again?" I don't have the exact quote, but did write down the again in my notes.
The first time I saw this I remember yelling at the TV when the light came through the hatch, and thinking WTH is that?!?!? They really did the cliffhanger ending well.
ETA: No new Sawyer nicknames in this ep, just a repeat of Doc for Jack. I think this says something about how distracted he was by the headaches, because he certainly had plenty of opportunity.
We start with a fb of Locke working in a department store, explaining his favourite game, Mouse Trap, to a young kid. He used to play it with his brother. Is this a blood brother, or a foster brother from one of his foster homes ? A woman comes up and asks him where the footballs are. She is Emily, his mother.
Okay, I had the same thought. Where did the Brother come from? I suppose the easy way out is that it was some kid at the foster home, like Darkrogue pointed out, but Emily didn't even flinch at this news.
Was the Private Investigator in on the con?
Wouldn’t the dossier he had on Cooper reveal that he was a con man if it was a true investigation? Why did he act hesitant about giving the dossier to Locke?...
I also wondered about the P.I. If he was so concerned that Locke not have the report on his Father, then why do the research? You're right. It would have all come up about Cooper unless he used someone else's Social. Maybe Cooper was smart enough to keep his own Social clean the whole time, but I agree with you L&L, it's suspicious!
Jack (and Kate) being so scornful over Sawyer and his "sex with a prostitute". Jack sort of giving the impression that he is far too noble to ever sink to such depths of depravity. Can I just mention Bali ...... and a certain rather dubious female by the name of Bai Ling. He certainly wasn't taking crochet classes with her !
Also the "sex with a prostitute" thing and possibility of an STD certainly didn't seem to deter Kate from any future hook ups !
That kinda pissed me off too. What a hypoctite. Not to mention that Jack often times snubs Kate for the exact same reason. So, she knows better! It came off (to me) that Jack was trying to make Sawyer look disgusting just so Kate would keep away from Sawyer...and we all know how that ended for Jack. ;)
I've found what I believe to be a continuity error, but please correct me if I am wrong. When Locke and Boone are searching for the plane, Locke consults a compass. I thought Locke gave that compass to Sayid, but I've looked in my notes, and can't figure out what episode it is. But I believe Locke said he didn't need it anymore.
You are correct. (we must be psychic) I noticed the compass too. He did give the compass top Sayid. He said he "didn't need it anymore."
I want to talk about Locke, but will just post later.
I noticed the compass thing too. He gave it to Sayid when he was working on the maps. As far as survival skills, could he have learned anything at that commune?
I'm sure I could find this if I tried but what does the epi name translate to?
I noticed the compass thing too. He gave it to Sayid when he was working on the maps. As far as survival skills, could he have learned anything at that commune?
I'm sure I could find this if I tried but what does the epi name translate to?
He could have learned some survival skills at the commune (how to grow good pot, for example. ;)), but I bet he learned by studying for the walkabout. I think Darkrogue mentioned that...
From Wiki:
The phrase deus ex machina ['de.ʊs eks 'maːkʰi.naː] (literally "god out of a machine") describes an unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot (e.g. the rope that binds the hero's hands is luckily chewed off by a rat, or an angel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel) suddenly appearing to solve problems). :)
Let's start with this craziness and go from there:
LOCKE: Hey, hey, hey. Why are you following me?
EMILY: I'm sorry.
LOCKE: Who are you?
EMILY: I'm your mother.
[Shot of Locke and Emily in a diner.]
LOCKE: Look, miss, I don't know why you think I'm your son, or how you found me, but...
EMILY: You're adopted, aren't you?
LOCKE: No. No, I was raised in a foster home. Well, several foster homes, actually. Look, I don't mean to be rude -- what do you want from me?
EMILY: I want to tell you that you're special, very special. You're part of a design. You do realize that, don't you? That our meeting -- me finding you -- this is a sign of things to come. Great things.
LOCKE: My father, is he still alive?
EMILY: Still alive? Oh, John, don't you understand? You don't have a father. You were immaculately conceived.
Where were the writers going with this? Emily seemed fairly lucid in the diner. I'm having a hard time fitting this little conversation in with the big picture, unless this is going to come up in the future at some point, but...that would be a hard sell.
Immaculately conceived? Seriously?
If Cooper set everything up, why would he choose that route to entice Locke into giving him the kidney? If some woman said that to me, I'd think "Oh, she's psycho. That makes sense." and honestly, I'd be outta there; especially if she was claiming to be my Mother.
OZCHICK
Most people here seemed to not enjoy the Jack - Sawyer (with Kate on the sidelines) scene. I might be an awful person, but I think that scene is hysterical. Don't get me wrong, I love Sawyer, but he's been a bully and obnoxious, and I think (at this point in the story) he deserved to get taken down a peg.
You are definitely not an awful person, and sure Sawyer had it coming, but he's actually taken a lot of comeuppance - I think the most hilarious one was his beat up at the hands of Hurley - him trying to crawl out from under the side of the tent to escape the big guy was nothing short of slapstick ! So many of them have taken a shot at him, either verbally or physically, Kate being the worst verbally, although she has taken a swing at him on a few occasions. What I'm getting at (I get easily sidetracked !) is that he does deserve what he gets but he also takes it on the chin, mostly. When he gets pulled up for something, you can see him sort of muttering away under his breath, with that ferocious scowl on his face, but he never seems to hold a grudge to any great extent. Good grief even Charlie took a swing at him ! And to add insult to injury told him he hit like a ponce !
I hope they never take away Sawyer's antisocial habits - he would be soooo boring without them !
11Rooster11
08-15-07, 02:18 PM
This episode raised many questions for me.
The already mentioned... Was the PI involved in the scam? / Why didn't his investigation reveal Cooper's misdeeds?
What was the story with John's legs? His legs were almost useless when Boone fell? But he was still able to carry him all the way back. Did he "heal" right after the plane fell? I've always wanted more info about this.
How the hell did Locke know what kind of money that was with barely a look? I've been fortunate enough to travel a bit and use several foriegn currencies. But I would need to examine any money fairly thoughoughly to determine where it was from. Has Locke been to Nigeria? If so, When, Why & with Whom?
With all the noise and pounding on that hatch why didn't Demond turn on that light sooner or go outside to check out the situation?
I'm in the camp with those that think the Jack scene with Sawyer was a riot. Sawyer did have it coming. Jack did it for only one reason; to embarrass Sawyer in front of Kate. Sawyer is the only person that Jack would have treated that way IMO.
As for the Emily line about the emmaculate conception, She told John that Cooper told her to say that. Cooper knew that John's curiosity would be peaked with that line and that he would seek him out.
The cruelty of the backstory is shocking and horrific. Unimaginable is the pain that John experienced.
As for the Emily line about the emmaculate conception, She told John that Cooper told her to say that. Cooper knew that John's curiosity would be peaked with that line and that he would seek him out.
The cruelty of the backstory is shocking and horrific. Unimaginable is the pain that John experienced.
I gave it some more thought and realized that You're probably right. Cooper knew Locke's curiosity would be enough for him to seek Cooper out.
Cooper (who is a great conman) must be well versed in the art of the con and rule number one is: make the mark think it was their idea.
Agreed that Locke had the most heart breaking, haunting backstory of any of the Losties to date.
Another thing that was weird but probably insignificant is that when Locke was chasing his mother in the parking lot he got hit by a car. OK, we were all supposed to think for a minute that's how he got in the wheelchair. But then he gets up and keeps going. Wouldn't a person that just hit another person get out of their car and say "are you OK?" at the very least??? No one said/did anything.
And Rooster I didn't get the leg thing either. I guess the island was telling Locke he needed to get something done or he would end up paralyzed again, and I guess he got it done.
Also due to the fact I was re-watching, I noticed that when Boone was in the plane talking to the person on the radio, that person (Bernard?) said "we are also survivors of flight 815". I did not notice that the first time around, not thinking there could be other survivors.
Sawyer is the only person that Jack would have treated that way IMO.
Yes, because Jack and Kate both think they are superior to Sawyer and can get away with it ! I somehow can't see either of them treating Sayid or Locke like that. Anyway I keep holding out hope for Sawyer, that he will eventually redeem himself without getting killed !
11Rooster11 & Catnap
With Locke's useless legs, I sort of wondered if it wasn't more of a mental, psychological healing, than a physical healing caused by the island. His guilt at what had happened to Boone, who had by this time become his willing lackey, manifested itself into the "miraculous" healing of his legs (Emily was into miracles, wasn't she) in order that he could take Boone back to the doc.
ozchick
08-16-07, 04:09 PM
Another thing that was weird but probably insignificant is that when Locke was chasing his mother in the parking lot he got hit by a car. OK, we were all supposed to think for a minute that's how he got in the wheelchair. But then he gets up and keeps going. Wouldn't a person that just hit another person get out of their car and say "are you OK?" at the very least??? No one said/did anything.
catnap, I think you can hear someone saying "Hey man are you ok?" or something like that when Locke's getting up, but you can't actually see that person. My brain just assumed it was the driver.
Thanks Ozchick I did not hear that!
Yes, because Jack and Kate both think they are superior to Sawyer and can get away with it ! I somehow can't see either of them treating Sayid or Locke like that. Anyway I keep holding out hope for Sawyer, that he will eventually redeem himself without getting killed !
*holds out hope with Ozanna*
*holds out hope with Ozanna*
Ozchich We have to keep up the faith! See my latest "Numbers" post. I am not going to shut up !
MaxPower
08-17-07, 03:50 PM
OZCHICK
I hope they never take away Sawyer's antisocial habits - he would be soooo boring without them !
He was pretty anti-anti-social at the end of season 3...volunteering to help those still at the beach. I know there's a lot of talk about Sawyer's continued existence now that he's taken care of his demon...hopefully "James" will be as interesting a character as "Saywer".
And Rooster I didn't get the leg thing either. I guess the island was telling Locke he needed to get something done or he would end up paralyzed again, and I guess he got it done.
Locke tells Boone that if it doesn't work the Island will tell them what to do.
Back in the jungle Locke and Boone are still bickering. Locke - "Don't tell me what I can't do". There is the sound of a small plane sounding like it is going to crash. There is a sudden shot of Boone, covered in blood, and a shot of Emily pointing at something. Boone - "Theresa falls up the stairs, Theresa falls down the stairs etc. etc." Locke is back in his wheelchair, his mother pointing in the background. Locke is saying "No, no, no please..."
He falls out of his wheelchair - "Don't take it back" I guess he's talking about the feeling in his legs.
That night Locke wakes up, frightened, from a dream, feeling for his legs. He wakes Boone and tells him to go with him.
Back on the island Locke is at the hatch crying out "I have done everything you asked me to do. So why did you do this to me ?"
A light goes on in the hatch.
This huge havid of Locke's really confuses me. I really do believe that John has some strange connection with the island. If this havid is a part of that connection, what was the ultimate point of it? I keep mulling over why John lost his legs for a while....was it because the island didn't want John to go up to airplane? And if Boone was "supposed" to go in the beachcraft, why? And why was it necessary for him to be a "sacrifice"? I can't work it out...
But I'll tell you....I've seen this epidsode probably about 4 times now. And EVERY time that hatch lights up, I get the worst case of chills. I love it!
Anyway I keep holding out hope for Sawyer, that he will eventually redeem himself without getting killed !
*holds out hope with Ozanna*
*joining the hope party*
Hodgepodge
08-25-07, 11:38 PM
I'm getting closer to catching up, and then you guys will be in trouble. :nanabobo:
In watching this episode again, I'm still astounded by Locke's HAVID. I'm still curious whether this is how he's received all the information he's used on the other survivors?
I started to see the other side of Locke as well. His obsession with the hatch started him on a downward spiral that, IMO he's never recovered. I'd really like to know what he expected when he was shown a bloody Boone? Granted these HAVIDs have never been mistake proof. They've always been incomplete, leaving a lot to the interpretation of the receiving individual, but come on. :rolleyez:
And I think the most important revelation from the episode was Locke loosing the use of his legs. What was the cause? If the "Island" sent him on this journey, why would it take away his mobility? Or, as some of the membership have speculated, this was a competing entity who sent him to the Beechcraft. And, the "Island" saved him by taking away its gift, which forced Boone to make the climb.
If seeing Locke in that wheelchair in Walkabout was the most OMG moment since the series started, then Locke banging on the hatch and the light coming on has to be second. OMG!
Black Manta
08-30-07, 08:05 PM
I've watched three episodes today (kids are back in school--Yea!!!!!) and at the time this episode seemed really vital to the mythology but watching it now knowing everything that's going to happen...
What's the big deal about the plane? OK we still don't know how it got there from Africa but it really seems like a dead end as far as the story goes. The plane leads to the ? bunker which is just an observation post. The heroin was there to tempt Charley. Eko's brother died in the crash.
Biggest reveal was the possibility of other survivors.
I got to say that I don't think the island was behind John's visions or the loss of his legs. I'm more inclined to believe that Locke can see parts of the future. He couldn't walk because he subconsciously knew the plane would fall.
Locke's behavior is justified. He crashed on an island, miraculously regained his ability to walk, encountered a big smoke cloud that read his mind and became super-frontier man without whom none of the others could survive. So he's acting weird, who wouldn't.
The Jack/Sawyer scene was funny. I think that examination might make Sawyer respect Jack more. Plus Sawyer did need to be taken down a peg or two. I sometimes think I am the only one who likes all these characters.
Hodgepodge
08-30-07, 10:57 PM
...I got to say that I don't think the island was behind John's visions or the loss of his legs. I'm more inclined to believe that Locke can see parts of the future. He couldn't walk because he subconsciously knew the plane would fall...So you think it's like hysterical blindness. The participant brings it on themselves?
Do you think Locke knew the vision of the bloody Boone was a harbinger of his death? And, instead of trying to save him like Desmond tried with Charlie all those many times, he just let Boone die?
Black Manta
08-31-07, 02:29 AM
So you think it's like hysterical blindness. The participant brings it on themselves?
Do you think Locke knew the vision of the bloody Boone was a harbinger of his death? And, instead of trying to save him like Desmond tried with Charlie all those many times, he just let Boone die?
The hysterical blindness is a good analogy.
I never liked the way the Boone/Locke thing was handled. It was very coldhearted. This was the guy who just built a crib for Claire. Desmond saw Charley die in his visions. Locke saw Boone bloodied. Yes, it's a stretch, but if we had to give Locke the benefit of doubt we could say that Locke did not see Boone dead. Maybe he felt the island could heal Boone if he had enough faith. I feel like we were watching Locke use Boone similiar to the way Cooper used Locke (Locke even called Boone son). And later I think Locke referred to Boone's death as a sacrifice the island required. None of that really seemed right for Locke.
Locke seemed very confused about Boone. It didn't seem as if he was sold on Boone's death being "a sacrifice the Island demanded", that he had to convince himself that it was Boone's destiny.
Locke 'n' Load
09-01-07, 02:40 AM
I think that Locke's explanation about Boone's death being a sacrifice the island demanded, was how Locke saw the incident with hindsight. I do not believe that he knew it ahead of time. At least that is the way I prefer to see it until I see some evidence to the contrary. LnL
Darkrogue
09-01-07, 03:44 AM
Locke seemed very confused about Boone. It didn't seem as if he was sold on Boone's death being "a sacrifice the Island demanded", that he had to convince himself that it was Boone's destiny.
I think that Locke's explanation about Boone's death being a sacrifice the island demanded, was how Locke saw the incident with hindsight. I do not believe that he knew it ahead of time. At least that is the way I prefer to see it until I see some evidence to the contrary. LnL
Good points. Just to add, I think it was Locke's way of justifying Boone's death--to claim it was a "sacrifice the island demanded". I think that was how he dealt with something he had not wanted, expected or intended to happen.
If it was truly such, then we have not been given much evidence or justification of that. Hopefully, if Boone really was required to die by the island, we will know why before the series is over. Same with Charlie. If the island has it's reasons for taking the lives of the people killed, I want to know what its aims and purposes are, and why it claims those it claims.
MrSocko
09-21-07, 05:13 PM
Forgive the late response, but I just rewatched this episode a couple days ago, and had some thoughts. Ever since I first saw "Deus Ex Machina" there was one thing that always bothered me: what was the purpose of the Island leading Locke to the beech craft? If we are to assume that his HAVID was truly a sign from the Island (which I do believe it was), why did the Island want him to go there?
At first, I thought maybe the beech craft had something that would help open the hatch, which is what Locke thought as well. That didn't seem to be the case though, as the plane had nothing but heroin and Eko's former pals. So, what then? Maybe it wanted them to make contact with the Tailies? But why? I feel like the tailies really had no purpose to the Island, and therefore there would be no motivation for the Island to want them to contact our own heroes from the fuselage.
My next guess, and one that was talked about on the boards somewhere, was that the island was not leading Locke to the beech craft, but rather to the Pearl. But again, why do this? Whats the motivation? If anything, what Locke would find in the Pearl would do nothing but make him doubt the importance of the Swan. (I know he hadn't found the Swan yet, and didn't know about the button, but I assume that he would have viewed the Swan Orientation film and recognized the phrase "utmost importance" that Candle uses in both films, therefore making him remember what he saw in the Pearl that said the experiments of the Swan were meaningless). Because of this, Locke would probably not have been as dedicated about pushing the button, which I think is the last thing that the Island wanted. It always seemed to me that the Island, above all else, did not want the timer to run down to 0.
So, how does it do this? How does it make sure that the button keeps getting pushed? Well, thats where I put 2 and 2 together, and realized that the Island sent John to the beech craft for the express purpose of making sure the button keeps getting pushed. The Island knew that Boone would be in this accident, and would die. (In a way, John was right: Boone was a sacrifice that the island demanded.) But why? To save Desmond's life. I think the Island clearly has an understanding of the "future", so to speak, and pulled the strings with this event by giving Locke the HAVID of the beech craft. How does Locke react? He goes back to the Hatch, pounds on the roof and screams his head off, and what happens? Desmond hears him, interprets it as a "sign" and decides not to kill himself. If this had not happened, Desmond would have, presumably, killed himself that night in the hatch, and the button would not have been pushed, and that si exactly what the Island prevented.
Essentially, Boone was sacrificed so that Desmond would live, and in turn the button would keep being pushed, which is exactly what the Island wanted all along.
Phew. This was something that really bothered me about this episode, and I think this is a pretty cool theory about the purpose of this episode. Does this seem to make sense? Am I way off? Or did anyone have a similar theory? Let me know... this is a fantastic episode :)
Locke 'n' Load
09-22-07, 01:47 AM
Socko, I really like how you put two and two together. It seems a bit clearer to me with your explanation. I could never understand why Boone was a "sacrifice the island demanded" but I think you have it right. Thanks for the input!
LnL
So, how does it do this? How does it make sure that the button keeps getting pushed? Well, thats where I put 2 and 2 together, and realized that the Island sent John to the beech craft for the express purpose of making sure the button keeps getting pushed. The Island knew that Boone would be in this accident, and would die. (In a way, John was right: Boone was a sacrifice that the island demanded.) But why? To save Desmond's life. I think the Island clearly has an understanding of the "future", so to speak, and pulled the strings with this event by giving Locke the HAVID of the beech craft. How does Locke react? He goes back to the Hatch, pounds on the roof and screams his head off, and what happens? Desmond hears him, interprets it as a "sign" and decides not to kill himself. If this had not happened, Desmond would have, presumably, killed himself that night in the hatch, and the button would not have been pushed, and that si exactly what the Island prevented.
Essentially, Boone was sacrificed so that Desmond would live, and in turn the button would keep being pushed, which is exactly what the Island wanted all along.
Phew. This was something that really bothered me about this episode, and I think this is a pretty cool theory about the purpose of this episode. Does this seem to make sense? Am I way off? Or did anyone have a similar theory? Let me know... this is a fantastic episode :)
I think your theory makes a lot of sense and you've stated your case brilliantly. Desmond did actually tell Locke that he saved his life in a later episode, so yes, 'the numbers are cursed'.
LOL. :D Do you want to hug me now?
MrSocko
09-22-07, 03:03 AM
I could never turn down a hug :shiny:
Glad to see this theory actually makes some sense. I gave it some serious thought and couldn't come up with any clear holes, but I'm always a little reserved about sharing my theories
CENSORED
09-23-07, 06:39 AM
SWING IT ! ! ! !!!!!!!!!
GardenMom
09-24-07, 05:08 PM
We start with a fb of Locke working in a department store, explaining his favourite game, Mouse Trap, to a young kid. He used to play it with his brother. Is this a blood brother, or a foster brother from one of his foster homes ?
What brother did Locke play Mouse Trap with?
I always assumed the brother he played Mouse Trap with was a child in the foster home he mentioned.
Okay, I had the same thought. Where did the Brother come from? I suppose the easy way out is that it was some kid at the foster home, like Darkrogue pointed out, but Emily didn't even flinch at this news.
Where were the writers going with this? Emily seemed fairly lucid in the diner. I'm having a hard time fitting this little conversation in with the big picture, unless this is going to come up in the future at some point, but...that would be a hard sell.
I've got my own ideas on the mysterious brother that I posted here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1532220&postcount=94).
I really liked this episode because it gave lots of new clues (and new puzzles) to Locke's story.
sweetsunray
09-24-07, 08:14 PM
Also thought (still do) that Locke regarded Boone's death as the sacrifice that the island demanded because he couldn't cope with the possibility it was a useless, senseless death.
On the rewatch, I realized that imo the island had wanted to lead Locke to the Pearl. Boone and Locke made an interpretation mistake: they thought the beechcraft was what they needed to look into, while all it would have taken was to simply climb up to the height of the beechcraft and look down.
I don't think it was necessary for Boone to die in order to get Locke go frantic at the hatch and save Desmond's life. Had they found the hatch Locke would not only have seen the demonstration tape, but he would have seen what the inside of the hatch looked like, and that there was a living person inside. I think that would have been motivation enough for Locke to go pounding on the door anyway, even with Boone still alive. This has been emphasised imo by Nicky and Paolo coming across the same area and finding the Pearl before Boone's death (if I recollect correctly).
Why the paralyses: it seems to me that the island or whatever that brings on the havids with Locke is threatening John: what's been given, can easily be taken away again. Also, the paralyses seems to coincide with Locke faltering in his faith, whenever Locke thinks he's the biggest boob on earth, that's when he also gets paralized.
MrSocko
09-24-07, 09:05 PM
I don't think it was necessary for Boone to die in order to get Locke go frantic at the hatch and save Desmond's life. Had they found the hatch Locke would not only have seen the demonstration tape, but he would have seen what the inside of the hatch looked like, and that there was a living person inside.
Hm, I'm not sure if I agree. I don't think Locke would have seen the TV of the Swan and known that it was the inside of the hatch that he had found. The only part of the Swan that he had seen was a very small, round, room, that is nowhere near as big as what the Swan really is, but he doesn't know that it opens up.
Also, the fact that he would have seen the Pearl's ORIENTATION video is one of the reasons why I feel like the Island would not want him to find the Pearl at that time. All the video did was make Locke think that the button was useless, and it led to his refusal to push it.
I think that would have been motivation enough for Locke to go pounding on the door anyway, even with Boone still alive. This has been emphasised imo by Nicky and Paolo coming across the same area and finding the Pearl before Boone's death (if I recollect correctly).
Actually, Nikki and Paulo discover the Pearl after Boone's death, as they see some footage of Jack and other on the inside of the Swan (if I remember correctly). But I'm also not sure I understand the correlation here.
Why the paralyses: it seems to me that the island or whatever that brings on the havids with Locke is threatening John: what's been given, can easily be taken away again. Also, the paralyses seems to coincide with Locke faltering in his faith, whenever Locke thinks he's the biggest boob on earth, that's when he also gets paralized.
I was with with you up until that last line. I do agree that the Island seems to be telling Locke "hey man, don't get cocky", in a way. But his paralysis seems to come back when his faith has been restored. He believes that the havid he has that leads him to beech craft is a real sign from the Island, and follows it very faithfully. This is when his paralysis threatens to return. But after Boone dies, his legs are back to working fine, it seems, and that is when he really feels like a boob: thats when he is pathetically crying on top of the hatch, with his faith deeply stirred, and his paralysis is completely gone again., which is why I thought it all happened as a way to keep him from entering the beech craft, which he most certainly would have if his legs had been functional. :)
Hodgepodge
09-24-07, 11:53 PM
Forgive the late response, but I just rewatched this episode a couple days ago, and had some thoughts. Ever since I first saw "Deus Ex Machina" there was one thing that always bothered me: what was the purpose of the Island leading Locke to the beech craft? If we are to assume that his HAVID was truly a sign from the Island (which I do believe it was), why did the Island want him to go there?
At first, I thought maybe the beech craft had something that would help open the hatch, which is what Locke thought as well. That didn't seem to be the case though, as the plane had nothing but heroin and Eko's former pals. So, what then? Maybe it wanted them to make contact with the Tailies? But why? I feel like the tailies really had no purpose to the Island, and therefore there would be no motivation for the Island to want them to contact our own heroes from the fuselage.
My next guess, and one that was talked about on the boards somewhere, was that the island was not leading Locke to the beech craft, but rather to the Pearl. But again, why do this? Whats the motivation? If anything, what Locke would find in the Pearl would do nothing but make him doubt the importance of the Swan. (I know he hadn't found the Swan yet, and didn't know about the button, but I assume that he would have viewed the Swan Orientation film and recognized the phrase "utmost importance" that Candle uses in both films, therefore making him remember what he saw in the Pearl that said the experiments of the Swan were meaningless). Because of this, Locke would probably not have been as dedicated about pushing the button, which I think is the last thing that the Island wanted. It always seemed to me that the Island, above all else, did not want the timer to run down to 0.
So, how does it do this? How does it make sure that the button keeps getting pushed? Well, thats where I put 2 and 2 together, and realized that the Island sent John to the beech craft for the express purpose of making sure the button keeps getting pushed. The Island knew that Boone would be in this accident, and would die. (In a way, John was right: Boone was a sacrifice that the island demanded.) But why? To save Desmond's life. I think the Island clearly has an understanding of the "future", so to speak, and pulled the strings with this event by giving Locke the HAVID of the beech craft. How does Locke react? He goes back to the Hatch, pounds on the roof and screams his head off, and what happens? Desmond hears him, interprets it as a "sign" and decides not to kill himself. If this had not happened, Desmond would have, presumably, killed himself that night in the hatch, and the button would not have been pushed, and that si exactly what the Island prevented.
Essentially, Boone was sacrificed so that Desmond would live, and in turn the button would keep being pushed, which is exactly what the Island wanted all along.
Phew. This was something that really bothered me about this episode, and I think this is a pretty cool theory about the purpose of this episode. Does this seem to make sense? Am I way off? Or did anyone have a similar theory? Let me know... this is a fantastic episode :)MrSocko54, let me add another incident before I try to give an answer. In either case, why would the Island take away Locke's mobility?
Remember the first incident took place before that HAVID. The trebuchet splintered and a piece got stuck in his leg. Remember again, he didn't feel anything, as a matter of fact, Boone had to bring it to his attention. "John. Your leg, man."
What would you say to separate entities trying to involve Locke in its plans? One wanting him to find either the Beechcraft airplane or the Pearl station and the other trying to keep him on another path? One sending him the HAVID and the other taking away the use of his legs so he couldn't find it?
MrSocko
09-25-07, 12:13 AM
MrSocko54, let me add another incident before I try to give an answer. In either case, why would the Island take away Locke's mobility?
Remember the first incident took place before that HAVID. The trebuchet splintered and a piece got stuck in his leg. Remember again, he didn't feel anything, as a matter of fact, Boone had to bring it to his attention. "John. Your leg, man."
What would you say to separate entities trying to involve Locke in its plans? One wanting him to find either the Beechcraft airplane or the Pearl station and the other trying to keep him on another path? One sending him the HAVID and the other taking away the use of his legs so he couldn't find it?
Hm. Interesting. His paralysis does indeed start to spring up before his dream sequence.... While that does put a bit of a hole in my theory, I guess it depends on what you believe the Island can do, and how involved it is in "fate." If the Island can foresee future events, and affect the present as a means of creating a desired future, then it remains possible that the paralysis is still a way to keep him out of the beech craft. The Island thinks ahead :D.
That said, I love the idea of two forces pulling Locke in different directions. It takes me right back to the good vs. evil/light vs. dark theme. I always kind of pictured Smokie as the "dark" (for obvious reasons) force that represents the Island's way of punishing/harming those inhabitants which it deems unworthy. It is the light side that I have always wondered about. I would love if Smokie and his counterpart had been "dueling", so to speak, with Locke the entire time, trying to tempt him to do their bidding, while he was unaware. I guess the question now to your theory, is what side did what? Assuming one of these forces is ultimately good, and one is bad, (I'm not sure if you agree), then did the good side lead him to the plane? Or did it paralyze him?
Perhaps the darkness wants Locke dead (Smokie pulls him down the hole in Exodus--maybe Locke was wrong and he would have died there), and the "light" wants him alive (hence, his first encounter with the Island in Walkabout, he claims to have seen a bright light, which clearly did not harm him at all...)
I apologize, that turned into a ramble. Definitely some interesting ideas though. :)
sweetsunray
09-26-07, 12:24 AM
Actually, Homer's last post in his Inverse Theory brought me back to this topic, and gave me some ideas.
Basically, Homer argued how the island/whatever has been manipulating the minds of those who are vulnerable to believing in predestination for its own purposes, and it all seems to lead to Charlie switchig the jamming off. And only Charlie could have done it, because he's the sole musician there.
It's Desmond who manipulated into Charlie making his sacrifice with his belief that Charlie was destined to die, by saving him countless times from death until Charlie could actually turn the switch off, but also we've seen that Desmond's visions were ambiguous regarding that:with Par Avion, it are Desmond's actions that would have led to Charlie drowning on the rocks (because Claire and Jin had almost trapped the bird in a non-dangerous location), and when they go searching for the parachutist, Desmond thinks Charlie needs to die (arrow vision), yet Charlie's also seen to be alive in the same vision after the arrow when they find the parachutist... here too it's Desmond himself who gets Charlie killed.
It could be argued that Desmond's destiny was not to push the button, but turn the failsafe key, and to push Charlie into turning the jamming switch off (as well as help Charlie survive until that time).
It thus can be argued that indeed Locke's sole purpose that had to do with the hatch was saving Desmond from killing himself, and on a subplot level for the island to make Desmond turn that failsafe key and the button to go away.
Now, why do I think Locke would have supposed Desmond to be in the hatch if he had found the Pearl first: well Locke had asked the island for a sign to help him open the hatch, he was desperate for it, and when he had the havid he believed he would find a sign there. Even after watching the Pearl's instructions, Locke would have instantly recognized Desmond on the screen as the sign he had asked for. There's no doubt in my mind that Locke would have not believed the connection. His mind was fully set on "I want a sign, a connection to the hatch." More, at the same time the Pearl's lab rat instructions, would have pushed the confrontation between Locke and Desmond to an earlier timeline, with Desmond turning the failsafe key and making the sky grow purple.
However, there was always the risk for the island that Locke and Boone would failt to understand the message of the beechcraft. The beechcraft itself was unimportant, it's only importance was the location: viewpoint of the question mark that leads to the Pearl. And in the case Locke and Boone made that mistake, the island had to have a plan B in order to push Locke to save Desmond from killing himself. They did make that mistake, and so plan B came into action, and thus Boone had to be sacrificed, in order for Locke to save Desmond, who would get Charlie to turn off the jamming device.
Why do I think that island wanted to get rid of the button in a subplot: well it first attempted and then killed Eko (who had wanted to keep on pushing the button), but more importantly Locke was indeed pushed to find the Pearl, first by the safetydoor that locked down on his leg and displayed the normally invisible map (it's not the lockdown itself that's mysterious, but pinning Locke on the exact location to notice it) and then bringing in Eko to drag Locke all the way back to the beechcraft, climb the cliff and look behind him to see the question mark that led to the Pearl. And for those who would argue the island could not reach into the hatch: well it sure was strong enough to know Ana Lucia was dead to use her as an image to go and tell Eko what needed to be done.
Nikki and Paolo: they come across the beechcraft and the Pearl before Boone and Locke, on day 24, while they're still searching for their luggage and Paolo hasn't even found the diamonds yet (because they still need to go to Skate's waterfall). Nikki tells Paolo to climb up to the beechcraft, because there might be a radio in it, but Paolo predicts that if he would do that the beechcraft probably would fall off the cliff. They then stumble across the Pearl. Paolo wants to explore it, but Niki doesn't let him. Is it coincidence that they both get killed off (especially Niki with the very strange spider who bites her (-because of its behaviour, Niki's standing perfectly still and has no feromones on her body - , and the Smokey sound in the bacground at that time) later on? They had an important piece of the puzzle, and they did nothing; had been in a position to help the island's plans to move on, but were uninterested in it. When Niki and Paolo find the beechcraft and Pearl, Locke and Boone have already discovered the hatch, but are doing away precious' time of Desmond's life by teaching Walt how to throw knives (hmmm, who ends up being attacked by a polar bear that same day... Did the island want to remove the distraction? Oh, and who also urges Locke not to open it. Was Walt able to see the island for what it was? Is Walt - and thus Michael - allowed off because Walt poses a threat to the island? Is that what Ben referred to when he said Walt was a bit too much for them to handle?).
The scene you refer to Mr Socko, is when Paolo has already found the diamonds and decides to hide them, and he goes down in the hatch to hide them there, in the toilet, and that's when Juliet and Ben enter to discuss the plan of using bait in order to capture Jack, Kate and Sawyer (pretend to be Walt to Michael, capture Michael and turn him, in order to lure Jack, Kate and Sawyer to the Others).
Is there truly predestination, or is it pure manipulation of people who are vulnerable to beliefs and self-dillusion of predestination by the island to do what it wants to be done, and does the island try to do away with people who it can't manipulate, or start to work against its wishes, or do stuff that's totally unimportant for the island. Regardless, I'm not so sure, whether the island's plans are "good" plans. The island itself might be a more destructive force than either the Others, or the people now coming to the island in S4. It may be our worst nightmare.
sweetsunray
10-30-07, 08:32 PM
FB: very sad, but not that interesting to me anymore, certainly not after that story arch has been finished. I guess Locke would be one of those for a FF in S4, and I'm guessing it's not a happy one either. The immaculately conceived trick not only piques Locke's interest but also makes sure he won't be spending his time getting to know his mother but focus all the more on his father. Locke hunted with Cooper more than once, as the guard at the entrance revealed: you gentleman going to get some birds again? So, he did learn to hunt with Cooper. And I think we're supposed to believe he learned some of his survival at his commune.
Is it a coincidence that the con FB occurs in this episode? Is that a hint that the island or whatever that sends him the dreams is conning him? That yet again, Locke is hoping to be the saviour, but that the other just makes him think so for its own reasons and will leave him out in the cold?
Locke's legs... I understand that the island may have used some psyche threat on him as if saying, "I can take it away anytime you know." But the loss of feeling in his legs after the trebuchet debacle and him still walking is just plain weird. And it makes no sense at all, except perhaps for alerting John that his walking ability is island related, and that off the island he'll be back in a wheelchair. (hmmm perhaps Jack could try to operate him... you never know... fat chance of Jack trying now though). Locke's legs start to malfunction the closer he gets to beechcraft and question mark. Twice at the same spot, and apparently he's not allowed to go up the cliff himself. Also wonder whether his legs fail him after he forgot to mention to Boone that he hadn't just seen him in his dream repeating that line and the beechcraft, but that he saw a zombie-like Boone.
Boone gets a bit of a spine, and Locke certainly doesn't like it. He only needs Boone as a follower, a lackey. It's clear he doesn't want Boone around for his input.
Kate's curiosity imo shows concern. Sawyer's not just the guy who knows how to charm a woman (not), but he has become a person to her, who albeit uncivil and vicious at times, still is someone she sees as at least a personal acquaintance/friend. And she knows he'll be all tough and pretend nothing's the matter, but might well be having something serious. Here's Kate's nature of not wanting anyone she cares about come to harm. Thus, she already started to care for Sawyer, whether she likes to admit it to herself or not. But yes, she's quite meddlesome when she wants to take care of others. She thought she helped her mother too by furnacing her father.
JACK: But we both know all I'm going to get for my trouble is a snappy one-liner. And if I'm real lucky, a brand new nickname.
LOL! And he's right about it.
SAWYER: You know what? I'm sensitive to you...
SAWYER: Sorry, Doc, sounds fun, but my insurance ran out.
JACK [laughing]: Insurance ran out - that's a good one.
Actually, in that scene he seems to know how to treat Sawyer perfectly. If Sawyer gets snappy or defensive, Jack backs off and in that way gives Sawyer ego space. As for the actual inspection, I thought it was hilarious. I don't mind that Sawyer gets his comeupance from about everybody he's snappy towards. Actually it makes Sawyer respect them more. Was it nice? Of course not. Sawyer's the kindof guy who doesn't want to be treated with gloves. And imo had Jack not handled him improperly Sawyer would have been frightened out of his wits for real (just watch his reactions when Jack only hmhmmms and checks without saying much). Jack's improper questions in front of Kate made Sawyer angry and imo realize his headache wasn't that serious really. He knew Jack well enough already to realize Jack wouldn't kid around with him if he did have a tumor. So, in a weird way Jack's improper questions helped to ease Sawyer's mind on the worst. Would Jack have asked the same questions without an audience? I think so. Although the audience may have helped him to come up with his line of questions in the first place.
SAWYER [to Jack]: You love this, don't you?
JACK: You're welcome.
They're kinda figuring out how to communicate. Sawyer can scoff all he wants, while Jack doesn't take it personal anymore and recognizes Sawyer for the tough act he puts on.
JACK: I didn't do it for him. Whenever Jack starts to allude to his developing feelings for Kate they get interrupted. But I always finished that sentence with the thought, "I helped Sawyer because you were worried for him."
LOCKE: I had a dream last night. I asked for a sign and then I saw a plane crash -- a Beechcraft [pointing] right out there. It was a dream, but it was the most real thing I've ever experienced. I know where to go now.
And that indicates that even if Locke had been having some message dreams before they were never anything remotely as clear as the one we saw on the screen. Actually, the way he says, "It was a dream, but it was the most real thing I've ever experienced," even indicates it's the first time he has a havid dream at all.
BOONE: Have you been using that wacky paste stuff that made me see my sister get eaten?
LOL
LOCKE: Jack wouldn't know the first thing about what's wrong with me. Hmmm, oh, yes, he would.
Like the Others know stuff about Sawyer they couldn't have known, Locke knows a childhood detail of Boone he could not have known. Is the one who communicates with Locke the one who gives data to the Others? Or does it get his information from the same source?
BOONE: She was my nanny -- Theresa. She was my nanny. My mother wasn't around much. I needed someone to take it out on -- my bedroom was at the top of this huge flight of stairs, and I would sit in bed all day calling her on the intercom. One day she took a bad step -- broke her neck. I was six.
Did Smokey pick "Theresa falls down the stairs" up from Boone and now has a confession without an ounce of remorse. Boone feels guilty, but doesn't seem remorseful about it, content with the explanation that he was only six at the time. That why he died?
LOCKE: What's important is what's inside it.
BOONE: What is inside of it, John?
LOCKE: You're going to have to climb up there for us and find out.
No, John, what's important is to climb up there and look down. Whatever's in the plane is only Charlie's temptation, and Boone and Eko's doom.
Locke may know how to build a trebuchet, how to spell it, and what Nigerian money looks like, but he knows squat about how important correct information is regarding injuries. I know he doesn't do it on purpose, but the guy who otherwise makes time to help people with their small and big stuff runs off when he's most needed for his own despair and lies to keep his secret that he shouldn't have kept secret in the first place: a combination of ignorance, self-centeredness and yup megalomania.
Although I was spooked the first time the light went on, I hadn't thought iwas because of Locke pounding on the hatch, after all he had used the trebuchet on it before that and that had given him no sign. It's a strange plot that Desmond hadn't noticed the sounds on the hatch before this. It' s not as if he can sleep much longer than about 100 mins straight in a row, can he?
jane_eire
11-05-07, 08:20 PM
sorry
Found the original discussion thread. I've cut and pasted my queries there.
Deeva.
In one of the first scenes, John is showing a young boy how to play the game *Mousetrap*. He says that he and his brother used to play the game when they were younger. So we know that he had a brother, adopted, foster, but a brother.
Now, Ben and John's mothers names are the same - Emily. Could Ben be the brother that John is talking about?
Deeva.
Randy Nations
12-30-08, 02:25 PM
In one of the first scenes, John is showing a young boy how to play the game *Mousetrap*. He says that he and his brother used to play the game when they were younger. So we know that he had a brother, adopted, foster, but a brother.
Now, Ben and John's mothers names are the same - Emily. Could Ben be the brother that John is talking about?
Deeva.
I personally think that Ben and John do share the same mother and are brothers. However, I don't think they know that. I don't think they were raised together so, I think that the brother John is referring to is a foster (or adopted) brother.
Vitriol
12-30-08, 04:43 PM
Um...good?
I personally think that Ben and John do share the same mother and are brothers. However, I don't think they know that. I don't think they were raised together so, I think that the brother John is referring to is a foster (or adopted) brother.
Hmmm - Sawyer ? Just a whim ! :D
Well, they were both raised in foster homes.
Randy Nations
12-31-08, 02:36 AM
Hmmm - Sawyer ? Just a whim ! :D
Well, they were both raised in foster homes.
:eek: Wow. That would be bizarre. And completely possible. Although, wouldn't they remember one another? I guess it's possible they wouldn't.......
:eek: Wow. That would be bizarre. And completely possible. Although, wouldn't they remember one another? I guess it's possible they wouldn't.......
Possibly not due to the age difference, and I think Sawyer would have been in his early teens when he went to foster homes, because he was living with an uncle for a while, until he died of a brain tumor. Which would have made Locke mid 20's by then. Unless Cooper was his dad, but I always thought that Cooper seduced Sawyer's Momma well after Sawyer had been born, so I have to go back on that one ! There is a definite link between them. I think !
Randy Nations
12-31-08, 03:22 AM
Bummer, that would've been interesting. But, like you said, the timeline doesn't work. Maybe the only connection between Locke and Sawyer is that Cooper ruined both of their lives?
Oh, well, at least we tried !
HAPPY NEW YEAR ! :celebrate:musik29::drinky:
Hi Dew ! No its nearly 4.00 pm on the 31st. We are staying home, having beef kebabs on the barbie and watching "Pineapple Express" ! Just call us the last of the great revellers !
I hope you have a happy and relaxed New Year and that everything good comes to you.
:Cheers::celebrate:love2::balloons::partytime::dri nky:
Randy Nations
12-31-08, 04:07 AM
Happy New Year Ozanna!!! :manynanas:
Yes, Happy New Year from the Great White North as well!
Deeva.
LOST Hiatus Rewatch: Week 7, Weds., July 8th-14th
2009
S1E19 : Deus Ex Machina
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/zia29112/LOST%20Stuff/300px-Lost-season1.jpg
World Walker
07-09-09, 02:50 AM
And our episode (one, I might add, I’ve been looking forward to re-watching since this entire rewatch schedule was set) begins with Mouse Trap! Okay, who here owned that game at some point? I sure did. The game is actually a great metaphor for John Locke; he is the mouse and (for lack of a better word), life is his trap. His entire life, this man was manipulated and we saw to what end he was brought in Season 5.
That having been said, I have a feeling that any Locke flashbacks we see on rewatch are gonna hit us harder than ever knowing where he ends up. :(
Uh oh…this is the first truly major time we’ve seen John lose his cool on the Island (with exception of a few small scenes in Walkabout before he ran into the Monster). “This was supposed to work!” This line is used very often in very specific situations. Has the timeline been altered and Locke is somehow sensitive to the changes? Or, more likely, is he simply frustrated because his limits are starting to show? The more I think about Locke, the less he seems like a true man of faith, despite his words.
Also worth noting: his outburst (loss of faith) occurs at the same time as his leg wound, which he doesn’t feel. It’s like the Island, or some force on the Island, is punishing him for his lack of faith. Though, that having been said, could this force also not be punishing Locke for his persistence in attempting to open the hatch? It could go both ways, depending on who is manipulating Locke during this event. Considering how wrapped up in MiB’s plot Locke is, I would assume it was his doing.
The first time I watched this episode and saw that car back into John, I literally jumped out of my seat and thought, Oh, that’s how he got in the wheelchair… and then he got right back up and I felt silly. :nanabobo:
“I was raised in several foster homes, actually.” So was that place where Richard Alpert visited little Locke in Season 4 supposed to be a foster home?
Emily Locke: “You are part of a design.” Wow! Truer words never spoken, lady.
Judging from the very disquieting content of Locke’s dream, I’m going to go on a limb and say that MiB sent the vision to him. That is, of course, assuming that MiB or Jacob have the power to project visions within dreams; it could, after all, just be the Island. Something very cool to note is that John saw the plane crashing in his dream. John also sees the plane crash with his own conscious eyes in the Island’s past and his own relative future.
And there he is…that magnificent bastard known as Anthony Cooper. You know, I actually cheered when Sawyer did him in during Season 3. This was a real bad guy. In a different league than, let’s say, Ben or Keamy. Unlike Ben, however, this piece of garbage had no redeeming qualities. Don’t get me wrong though – the character was very well acted. The actor did a wonderful job!
Another thing I noticed: whoever/whatever is manipulating Locke made sure that he heard Boone saying the bit about Theresa falling up/down the stairs. When Locke mentions this the next morning, Boone’s hooked. Before this, Boone was getting to the point where he might decide to leave Locke’s side. He was losing faith. This uncanny knowledge on Locke’s part regains Boone’s faith and dooms him in the process.
I’m guessing the uncle that died of the brain tumor was the same guy who told little James not to write his revenge letter; the letter meant for Cooper, who just happens to be in this episode. Neat parallel – completely unintended by the writers (considering the letter writing scene was in Season 5), but cool in retrospect.
“My insurance ran out.” That was pretty good. :rotfl:
Maybe you’ve got it backwards, John. Maybe the Island doesn’t want you to follow what you saw because it will lead you a step closer to getting in that hatch. That’s assuming the Island (or entity involved) doesn’t want the hatch opened. However, there’s a hole in this logic. The problem is, if Locke doesn’t allow Boone to climb up that cliff and fall, John won’t beat his fists bloody against the hatch door, preventing Desmond from putting a bullet in his brain. If Desmond had died that night, the hatch counter would’ve gone down to zero and nobody would’ve been around to turn that failsafe key. That sounds like a doomsday scenario right there.
So…the losties had to get into the hatch… :scratchch
One more thing to consider is the suspicious timing of Locke’s legs giving out. Maybe, if his legs had worked, John would’ve climbed the cliff himself and gotten crushed as the plane fell instead of Boone. To avoid this, the Island or MiB or Jacob prevented Locke the use of his legs long enough to ensure he survived to further his supposed destiny. In fact, the more I think about it, the more this scenario seemingly makes the most sense.
Does this make your head hurt? Mine hurts…:hammersel
Hahahaha! Gotta love the whole Sawyer in glasses thing. Does anybody remember what happened to the original pair Sayid cobbled together for him?
I love how, if you listen really closely, you can hear the voice on the radio say, “We’re also survivors of the crash of Oceanic 815.” I wonder what kind of crazy speculation was born from that bit of dialogue.
Look at that! The legs are working a lot better now that John Locke is out of any possible peril from the plane. Maybe I’m on to something…
The last flashback scene coupled with the last scene was TV gold. Just like during Walkabout, I was rendered speechless. Most of this was due to Terry O’Quinn’s amazing acting coupled with the largely emotional music sweeping the scene.
True story: the first time my mother (huge LOST fan) saw the scene at the end where the hatch light comes on, she said, “Aliens!” and I laughed. So glad that it didn’t turn out to be true. Desmond was much cooler than aliens!
Anyway, wonderful episode! One of the best of Season 1 for sure. :Cheers:
Watched this tonight. John gets conned in a major way. He gets conned out of a kidney. How can this man be taken seriously? imo he deserved to lose his kidney. He gets enraged but hey dummy, you believed this line of crap handed to you? Locke thinks he has a clue but I see him only as a pawn. He desire to be someone destroys him.
Sawyer was funny. Jack zapped him good and all the while knowing Sawyer's headaches were from his lack of glasses. Jack can be a jerk but how could he do this? Yeah Sawyer comes off as a hard ass but that is all a facade. Very out of character for a doctor. Glad Jack isn't one of my doctors. He would have resigned before the flight. :mad:
Well Sawyer sure got his comeuppance (again !) Jack shows his lack of a bedside manner once again, and Kate is busy meddling in Sawyer's life again. Now don't all yell at once, but I think she needs to get a bedside manner too ! She already put his back up with his letter, and her cross examination ! So I believe she was trying to help him by taking him to see Jack, but boy didn't the two of them have a giggle ! I hate those two when they gang up on Sawyer. No matter what an ass he is. Sawyer had legitimate reasons for worrying about his headaches. So his uncle died of a brain tumor - was this the uncle who told him to forget about his letter and to not live with vengeance in his heart ? But I would imagine that was always the intention.
World Walker - I believe Sawyer lost his original glasses on the raft. Next question - where did the next ones come from ? I can't remember !
Dew - I think Locke may be a tad gullible !
"Sure, Dad, you can have my kidney - would you like them both ? I'll manage !" He does come across as being a bit of a sucker ! A sad man with no one to look up to.
Just to jump in feet first, I think Sawyer was the little brother Locke played Mousetrap with. There was a game of Mousetrap in the Barracks in the recreation room. Just a thought :)
AChristianShephard
07-17-09, 01:53 AM
Nice to see Jack & Sawyer still flirting with each other.
I find it hard to blame Locke for his loss of kidney.
I mean when would that ever happen? Ohh I think my dad might be trying to steal my kidney? lol, not gonna happen.
Dunno if I remembered to put in my last post but I was wondering when Locke first began to properly lose the plot on island, and here it is.
If this was E-Woke then yeah I guess he could of taken Lockes legs away at need, but we seem to be forgetting the island again, the true star of the show, she still has yet to show herself.
Ive not too much to say on this one, other than to point out that for me, its when the show finally started to get established and down to the nitty gritty.
This is the episode for me that siad - 'look, this aint gonna be pretty, but it sure is gonna be fun'.
10/10
<<<Still waiting for my Island Flashback, dammit. :p
AChristianShephard
07-17-09, 03:33 PM
I love how, if you listen really closely, you can hear the voice on the radio say, “We’re also survivors of the crash of Oceanic 815.” I wonder what kind of crazy speculation was born from that bit of dialogue.
So hold up a minute, is that what was actually said?
I was wondering what it was but so much happened in those 5mins i forgot.
What is the speculation over this? Ive never seen this mentioned on these boards which is pretty suprising.
Wonder if it was Mikhail.
Any thoughts anybody?
It was Boone from the cockpit of the crashed (Yemi) plane and Bernard picked it up on the walkie.
AChristianShephard
07-17-09, 05:01 PM
*Waits for the other 48hrs*
Yeah, I loved S2. I appreciated the grimness and direness of S2 and S3.
AChristianShephard
07-17-09, 05:40 PM
I thought Season 2 was amazing, only beaten by 1, mind you, ive never re-watched 2, but look at all the cast additions, incomprehensible :D
So hold up a minute, is that what was actually said?
I was wondering what it was but so much happened in those 5mins i forgot.
What is the speculation over this? Ive never seen this mentioned on these boards which is pretty suprising.
Wonder if it was Mikhail.
Any thoughts anybody?
From the transcript. I am not formatting this time around. ;)
[Boone finds another map then looks at the instrument panel. He tries the radio and hears static. The plane starts toppling over, but stops.]
LOCKE: Boone, Boone, get out!
BOONE [into the radio]: Hello. Hello. Anybody out there? Mayday, mayday.
LOCKE: Boone, there's no time. Get out now.
RADIO VOICE: Is someone there?
BOONE: Hello. Hello. Can you hear me?
RADIO VOICE: Repeat your transmission please.
BOONE: Hello. We're survivors of the crash of Oceanic flight 815, please copy.
LOCKE [overlapping with Boone]: Boone, get out!
RADIO VOICE: Hello. We're the survivors of Oceanic flight 815.
LOCKE [overlapping]: Boone, get out.
[The plane falls and flips over. Locke struggles to get up and gets Boone to carry him back to Jack.]
It was Boone from the cockpit of the crashed (Yemi) plane and Bernard picked it up on the walkie.
I never realized it was Bernard. Sheesh, a tailie talking with a cabin person. :doh:
I thought Season 2 was amazing, only beaten by 1, mind you, ive never re-watched 2, but look at all the cast additions, incomprehensible :D
Yes! The cast was awesome!!! Eko FTW!
That was awesome - it sent chills down my spine. I know I have a very warped mind, but did anybody else think that Locke really didn't want Boone talking to anyone - well he never wanted anybody else knowing they were on the island, and he never wanted anybody else to get off the island. All the time Boone was trying to communicate with Bernard Locke was talking over the top of him. Sure he wanted Boone to get off the 'plane, and survive, but he sure didn't want him talking to anybody else.
Thanks for the transcript, Dew :)
Locke is only interested in Locke and the island but more so himself. Boone was his pawn evidenced by how he carried a crushed Boone back to the caves and just left. :no:
So, you guys think Locke was dragging Boone all the way back to camp for himself, and not to save Boone, or to compensate for his guilty conscious? The way I see it was that Locke freaked out because he started to wonder if the Island was giving him the correct information or just having him carry out the Island's "dirty work" for it. (Island) I thought Locke felt used by the Island and confused, because what he did he thought was right, he thought he was helping the Island, but all he got was crap for it....hence, the freakout, running away to the jungle to think about it.
Well Locke really had no choice but to bring Boone back. Folks knew that Boone and Locke were spending a great deal of time in the jungle and if they found Boone dead that it was someway related to Locke and Locke would fall out of favor fast. If Locke felt guilt, he would not have left Boone at the caves and disappear back into the jungle and then to the hatch imo.
AChristianShephard
07-17-09, 11:21 PM
Its the fact that he lied about Boones predicament which confuses things. Mind you, to stop and try and explain that they found a plane, climbed up to it etc wouldn't have worked either, hmnnn... Locke leaving Boone was unforgivable, but not murder like Jackass said.
I guess this is the point where they all stop getting along.
This was all a bit confusing when it originally aired as it wasn't adequately explained that Lock had some kind of commune with the island, just seemed he was acting like a nutter all of a sudden haha
In "Exodus" Locke explained that Boone was the sacrifice that the Island demanded. Was this Locke's way of making up for his guilty conscience over Boone's death ?
Shep, you calling Locke a "nutter" ? He's just a bit misguided - must have been that commune he stayed at ! :Peace5::Hippy::rasta::rofl1:
Locke 'n' Load
07-18-09, 05:44 PM
I think Locke was confused and upset about Boone's injuries. He did not leave Boone at the caves because he didn't care. As, Zia, said he could have left Boone at the plane if he didn't care instead of carrying him all the way back to the caves. He could have told everyone that he and Boone got separated and didn't know anything about what happened. No. He cared. When my mom died, my younger sister could not handle it and went missing for several days. People show emotional distress in different ways, and just because we wouldn't have done it that way, doesn't mean they don't feel they same way we feel.
At this time of the show, the beginning, I believe Locke was more self-centered. His character matured after this incident and he was more caring. When Locke gets obsessed best to be out of his way. He was obsessed with the plane as he was with the hatch.
Yes he did build the cradle for Claire however he wasn't as obsessed yet imo. btw I love TOQ. :)
Locke is still coming to terms with his new destiny. What happened with Boone was a terrible accident, and they were both in error. Boone was so excited about finding the radio in the 'plane and talking to someone, while it appeared that Locke was trying to shut him up. Boone was mostly responsible for the 'plane falling, and Locke took him back for Jack to fix him.
Jack tried to help Boone, but Jack was so busy being king of the castle, that he made a mess of everything, and Boone ended up dying an agonizing death. Jack's self importance again got the better of him.
:yeah: too. We are so much more opened minded now watching S1 after watching S5. I keep trying to not let the future episodes cloud my observations too much. :)
:yeah: too. We are so much more opened minded now watching S1 after watching S5. I keep trying to not let the future episodes cloud my observations too much. :)
:nothingtoadd:
AChristianShephard
07-19-09, 01:19 AM
Woah girls, you've just put it all into perspective :worshippy
:nothingtoadd:
Seriously??? :rotfl: Is that even possible???
Ummmmmmm ....... well - I'm sure I can come up with something :D I do change my mind sometimes !
ACS' "perspective" post didn't help either. I just laughed and laughed. ;) :)
Do you think he's trying to "humor" us, Zia ? :D
AChristianShephard
07-19-09, 12:33 PM
I meant it's nice to hear things laid out simply without the need for histrionics.
:run:
You mean hysterics?
:makeout:<<< Good morning, Dear! ;)
abcdxyz
07-21-09, 11:56 PM
Ok, when I rewatched this ep, I realized that we still don't have any explanation for how Yemi's plane got to the island. It didn't fly all the way from Nigeria, that's for sure. Did it go through a vortex or something over the Tunisian desert?
World Walker
07-22-09, 12:57 AM
Ok, when I rewatched this ep, I realized that we still don't have any explanation for how Yemi's plane got to the island. It didn't fly all the way from Nigeria, that's for sure. Did it go through a vortex or something over the Tunisian desert?
The way I've tried to explain this to myself is that since we know the Island is always moving (according to Hawking), it happened to be on the plane's course at that point in time. More than that, maybe the Island moved at that exact moment into the plane's course, causing massive instrument failures that resulted in the plane crashing on the Island. Remember, this is just one of many vessels that have crashed on this island.
Yeah, that's the only way I can reconcile Yemi's plane crashing on the Island too, otherwise, how else could it have happened? I do think it happened for a reason though, I can see now that Yemi had to be brought to the Island to play his role in Eko's destiny. I miss Eko, Dammit.
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