Was it Debris?

[seraphism]

<FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>ok you all know what i'm talking about, the infamous piece of "debris" from the pilot that hits the engine just before it explodes. Theory A, it is debris. There's lots of it floating round the place (as seen throughout that scene) and the strong winds and exhaust from the engine are the reason it changed it's flight path so dramatically.
Or it's not debris. The flight path of said object changes before the engine explodes and while all other pieces of floating debris appear to be quite small (which is why they're floating) this object appears to be too big for debris. It can't be in the foreground of the shot because it is obscured by the engine at times and definetly by the first blast of the explosion. Seeing as the debris appears to be larger than a human head (comparitive to the humans in shot) and it is placed behind them in the shot (behind the turbine) the object seems too large to be so strongly affected by the breeze (and it's not behind the engine so wouldn't be subject to exhaust).
ps:- can you guess which theory i prefer?
pps:- feel free to post screen caps and generally debate about the issue in this thread, it's mostly only a poll for funs sake.</FONT><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Results (total votes = 53):</FONT><table bgcolor=#FFFFFF border=0 cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 width="75%">
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<FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Debris?</FONT>&nbsp</td>
<td height><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>32&nbsp;/&nbsp;60.4%</FONT>&nbsp</td><td><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/bar.gif width=181 height=10 hspace=3>&nbsp;</td></tr>
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<FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>or not Debris?</FONT>&nbsp</td>
<td height><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>21&nbsp;/&nbsp;39.6%</FONT>&nbsp</td><td><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/bar.gif width=118 height=10 hspace=3>&nbsp;</td></tr>
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<a href=http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm34.showMes sage?topicID=178.topic><FONT FACE="Verdana,Arial" SIZE=2>Vote Now</FONT></a> &nbsp

[Black Dahlia]

Irregardless of what it was intended to be, it is a CGI effect, and I strongly doubt the graphic artists on the FX team would create such a questionable animation. I guarantee that every single frame in that shot and many others was watched, tweaked, rewatched, and retweaked several times.

Of course, the animators could have just put it in as a red herring, like the one frame of Jessica Rabbit topless or "The Rescuers" sex-in-a-window scene.

[seraphism]

someone in another thread posted a link to an animated gif of the event, so here it is kids img96.exs.cx/img96/5607/wtfboom2.gif (http://img96.exs.cx/img96/5607/wtfboom2.gif)
hope the person who posted that link doesn't mind me reposting it.
ps:- i definately agree with dahlia about this effect being intentional. Yes it could be a red herring but beyond that it just looks to strange for the show's producers not to have something to do with it.

[EagleIFilms]

I see no way that that's just falling debris. MAYBE it was a badly done effect, but it's too obvious to be a mistake. I dunno. We'll see.

[drabauer]

Its fascinating how the poll has overnight shifted from Debris to not. I think it's time for a new poll--if not debris then a. a creatue b. a missile c. ... my answers are lame--someone else try!

[Azriel]

Wow, it really did shift. It's DEBRIS! In the scenes before you can see the black flappy crap flying all over the place, people! Also, I think that people keep forgetting that the engine exploded because a man got sucked up into it, not because of the unidentified flying black flappy crap.

[drabauer]

LOL azriel can we just call it BFC (black flappy crap) from now on?:D

[Azriel]

That works for me. :D

[Strangely Brown]

It just seems to me to be debris that was flying towards the engine until it exploded and the force of the explosion caused the debris to fly another direction.

[MEmacmur]

While I agree with the above poster, I also find it odd that the BFC comes to engine, engine 'splodes, BFC continues moving same direction away from engine.

Plus, I thought it was pretty hokey that a person being sucked in would cause an explosion. Yes, it's damaged from the crash, but are they engineered that poorly?

Editted to state that I can't make up my mind one way or the other. Guess I'm lost.

[Iphigenia W]

*I thought it was pretty hokey that a person being sucked in would cause an explosion. Yes, it's damaged from the crash, but are they engineered that poorly?*

A bird being sucked into an engine in flight is enough to cause explosions and fire in the engine. Airports have had to shut down temporarily because of flocks of birds migrating over their airspace. Considering the size difference between a man and a bird I don't find it unrealistic for there to be a major explosion in an engine that has already been through a crash.

[seraphism]

watch it closely strangely brown, the "BFC" (not a bad name really) changes direction before the explosion. It's more clear if you watch the gif load as you get a few seconds to look at each frame. There is no explosion when the debris changes course and if you'll notice the debris's arc and movement speed is enough to elongate the object too about twice or even more than it's real length, it's most clear in one of the frames where the explosion has just started and the BFC is moving away from the engine already the back end of it still blurred and obscured by the explosion yet the front end is streaking well away from the explosion much faster than the dust (something that should be smaller and therefore lighter than the BFC) moves away from the explosion.
Remember how far jack ran to get to claire? Now look at the debris, i'm sure it's behind the engine on the other side from claire and jack yet the debris is still almost the size of jacks head before it hits the engine and after it does and starts it's upward streak it actually appears to be bigger than jacks head (this may just be because of the motion blur). Remember though that jack has run a fair way (perhaps 20 metres) which would make the object probably at least 1 metre long (major guestimatte there) which is IMO too large too be affected by the wind. And yes check the gif for if it moves before or after explosion.
ps:- I'm quite happy to be proved wrong on this one, after all if i'm wrong then i'll just change my mind so that i get to be right again. :D

[Master Xander]

I'm firmly in the debris camp. In earlier scenes, a bunch of swirling (in all directions, pretty much the same way that shadowy shape moved) debris was already shown around the engine/turbine.

Besides, isn't it a little small to be a ship?

[MEmacmur]

A bird being sucked into an engine in flight is enough to cause explosions and fire in the engine

And they say flying is safe. Yikes.

I still find myself gradually leaning away from the debris angle to the non-debris side, but at the same time I can also see us never knowing, as JJ may never reveal the cause of the crash...

[NotWithoutStilts]

I'm going with debris - something could've exploded up in the air after the sections split up sending a piece of debris up pretty high. It could've been caught up and only came down much later. Even though it appears to change direction right before it hits the engine that could be due to air currents of the heat rising off the beach.

or maybe it's the mothman!

[Xander Power]

All of the animations shown were debris. I'm certain of that.

My question is, what caused the plane to crash? Surely it wasn't low gas, or some basic ideal excuse liek that. Something MADE the plane crash.

My guess: EMP

[deelsee7]

Wow... this site and you guys are amazing. After looking at the clip, and knowing this was CGI and therefore designed to be just what you caught. I don't know what it IS, but it's NOT debris. At least in the linked clip, there wasn't multiple BFTs (was that the right acronym?) Anyway... it was only 1 object, and that trajectory was NOT that of falling mass. It plummeted downward, then swooped toward the engine, then FLEW upwards and away.

I'm certainly not a physicist, but I guess a piece of sheet metal might get lift from the explosion...

I'm finding lots of answers here, but for each one I find, I gain five new questions!:D

[BJLK]

WOW, I TOTALLY missed that when I first watched the show. I wish I had it on tape now.

I think the BFC is a magic carpet. They'll find it later on one of their excursions into the jungle. It will be used later in the series to transport people all over the island.

Just kidding, LOL.:rollin

I'll have to show this to hubby and see what he thinks. I think he missed it too.

There's an article in TV Guide this week and it is stated that EVERYTHING is in each shot is for a reason. So this really makes me wonder What Up With The BFC?????????

[jballou921]

I read an interesting post the other day saying how dumb and contrived the show was. After I tracked down the poster to a remote section of Brazil and beat him to death with a frozen bagel, I re-read his post, and he said it would be basically impossible for that engine to have enough power to suck a 180 pound off his feet through the air. And he was right. It is basically impossible, but combine the very very inprobable sucking up of the man with the questionable debris which the director and CG team HAD to do on purpose. I am an amature director and I have also done a little CG, and doing ANYTHING with CG is a pain in the ass, and there would be NO reason to put something in that doesn't react according to predefined rules (such as gravity, wind, water phsyics, etc) because you would have to realistically animate it, which would take significantly longer than putting in random floating flakes of debris that simply fall according to gravity and the wind, etc. The way that thing shoots off at an angle BEFORE the explosion is completely and totally on purpose, no question about it. And even if you did think it was just debris, explain how a downed engine which several people walk in front of can suddenly suck up a grown man. And on top of THAT- add to that the theory that the island is manifesting the thoughts and emotions of the people (the kid reads about the polar bear, then one shows up. Charlie wants his guitar, gives up drugs, and there it is) If you remember, right before the guy gets sucked up, Jack tells him to be careful. He warns him. Too many coicidenses to ignore.

[aznpunk97]

comon ppl, this is a show. you can do anything in hollywood.

a man can fly, a man can stop bullets with his hands, a man can swing from building to building using webs....

just siit back, grab some popcorn, snug up to your love ones, and turn on the abc channel for a 60min of lost.... 8o

[Iphigenia W]

*he said it would be basically impossible for that engine to have enough power to suck a 180 pound off his feet through the air. And he was right.*

Not that it answers the question of the debris, but that guy is wrong. A man can be sucked off the ground and into a jet engine, it has happened before.

[leftofpunk]

So I'll post a better image when I get home tonight, but I took that clip and ran it through animation shop 3 which took it down frame by frame and in the very first frame that you see it in it's a lot smaller and looks very light. The scene just before is Locke yelling at some dude to get away, he gets sucked in and then we see the same engine from behind blowing up. I wish I had the frame to show you now, you'll all have to wait though, but I wanna change my vote to debris. Now maybe something possessed the debris, that has yet to be seen, but i'm going with debris.

The problem with gif that has been posted is that it's leaving out the very first frame where you see the true size, it looks only about 2foot by 2 foot maximum. It was really curved and culed up in the very first frame.

[Kayzar]

I think we are looking at the wrong aspect of it. If it was debris, it would most likely have impacted the ground a long time before we had seen it. Jack wakes up, which means he had to be asleep. It gives us the impression he had been out for a while (at least 5 minutes) because most of the people on the beach were up and running around by the time he got there. The beach was in total chaos. Plus, anything that had fallen off the plane but had enough surface area and was light enough to keep it afloat (in the air) would have gone farther inland. It's basic physics. It still had enough velocity to keep moving forward after the crash, plus gravity didn't have as much effect over it because of wind resistance. It would have traveled at least another quarter mile inland before even skimming the trees. So coupled with the time to fall argument....i think it is NOT debris. Feel free to make ramifications.

[Kayzar]

Let me rephrase that, it still had enough velocity to move forward after the plane broke up. It is basic physics, but physics still sux.

[Iphigenia W]

*If it was debris, it would most likely have impacted the ground a long time before we had seen it.*

Ahh, but if you watch that segment of tape again you will see there is still debris in the air. Things are still moving and falling, even the wing falls over and stirs things up. The engine is still running which creates a huge wind tunnel which lifts and move a lot of debris. It can't be dismissed as debris simply because of the length of time it happened after the crash with those kind of conditions going on.

[leftofpunk]

as promised...
This is the first frame...
http://leftofpunk.com/avatars/f1DEBRIS.gif
Notice how curved the chunk is. Plus you can see the engine starting to explode already.

Here's a slow version (takes a bit to load)
leftofpunk.com/avatars/DEBRIS.gif (http://leftofpunk.com/avatars/DEBRIS.gif)

[BJLK]

Looks like a whale in that shot :lol

Still scratching my head on this one.

[azteclady]

Coming late to the thread but...

Kayzar wrote:
"Jack wakes up, which means he had to be asleep. It gives us the impression he had been out for a while (at least 5 minutes) because most of the people on the beach were up and running around by the time he got there."

I just wonder, how can you be so sure it was 'at least 5 minutes'? It occurs to me that he could have lost consciousness as the plane was disintegrating (which I believe he said to Kate at some point while she was sewing him up), but regained consciousness pretty quick after landing -hard- on the ground.

If that's the case, and depending on the initial altitude of the plane, and the winds, etc. I wonder how many seconds more would it take for the last piece of debris to fall after the first one touched the ground?

Of course, personally I think whomever did the effects, and whomever approved them, got just a tad carried away. They didn't (though they should have) count on the audience picking each frame apart.


Beto

Keep the LOST forums gold - become an ezsupporter

[cccourt]

I love this forum. I am addicted to it. And each time I see a thread which has dissected a two second shot such as this one, I realize I am not crazy to love this show. I love the fans too.

I have watched this shot numerous times... rewinding ...rewatching..stopping, etc. Until Eagle compared the first airing to the September airing, of the first episode...I thought it was a messy shot which they couldn't reshoot. Now...I don't know. And that is why I love this show. Why on earth would they throw this piece of metal in if it isn't something...OR.....they want to make it into something. JJ A is a master at leaving doors open in order to go back in. With what the eye can perceive, we know that a piece of metal fell into the propellor at the same time the man was sucked in to his death. This is a case for CSI: Deserted Island.

[BJLK]

LOL @ at "a case for CSI" (which I'm also a huge fan of)

When we looked at the clip, it looks like the BFC was swooping up JUST before the engine explodes. So we can't figure out what made it swoop up. Since it had started its upward movement BEFORE the engine exploded, the force of the blast doesn't seem like it caused that. I dunno. ???????

[DaddyTig]

Has anyone given any thought the the "debris" being a super being that swooped down and saved the man from being sucked into the engine?

[KissMESawyer]

I missed that the first time I saw the show too, but after looking at the animation on this site I totally think it is NOT debri. It was too controlled in the way it moved. Swooped down and then back up, it does not look like somehting that just "happened".

[lockeismydaddy]

Let's turn this one to the Myth Buster guys. I think they're on the Discovery Channel. Great show.

[DIGITALpH]

First, a jet engine CAN suck a man into it. Especially the large engines on wide body jets. It's a major safety issue on the tarmac at airports. Now, would that cause the engine to explode? ...I have no idea. Of course, it's "just television". Maybe the director had the guy sucked in and blew up the engine for dramatic value. [re; artistic license]

Second, the engine should still be running. I asked my father (a retired commercial airline pilot) about this, and it buggs him. One, the fuel line is most likely severed, so there's no power. Two, you need controls to keep the engine throttled, and running. It's like a car exploding on the highway, and seeing the engine all by itself on the side of the road still running. So, I'm guessing the jet engine running more "just television" for effect. [re; artistic license]

Ok, back to the question... I always thought that stuff was debris. But now that I've seen the animated gif, I don't know. The BFT moves like a bird flying in for the kill. Or maybe a ghost.

Also, if you watch the GIF, you'll notice a second BFT appears behind the man to our right of the engine, just before the engine blwos up. Almost like it's chassing him. Hum?

[BJLK]

I think this one will remain a mystery.

[Chance Gardener]

There was a video of a Navy tech getting sucked into the manifold of a fighter jet. Fortunately, he got wedged in and only got banged up, but it sucked off his upper clothing and that caused the engine to flameout and almost explode. I imagine had he gone through, it would have exploded.

I still say it is debris, it didn't hit the engine, but was blown away from it as it drifted down by the blast. If you look at other scenes, you can see the same black material floating all around the crash site.

Fat boy caused it to blow, not the UFO (which for me is an IFO).

[JerrysDisneyPrincess]

I am in the "debris" camp on this one. I know that every shot is "intentional" in one way or another, but I am not convinced by any of the photos / videos / arguments stated here that the BFT was anything more than just a piece of debris.

However, I've been surprised by this show before, and I'm sure I'll be surprised again. It would be nice, however, if the writers would pop in here and at least give us a clue on this one... ;)

[igator210]

Looking at the images a little closer and it appears that the object passes in front of the engine before it explodes. There are a couple of frames where the object seems to obscure the engine before it starts its upward trajectory.


In my opinion the object is closer to Jack than the engine when the engine explodes.

[Hodgepodge]

DaddyTig said:
Has anyone given any thought the the "debris" being a super being that swooped down and saved the man from being sucked into the engine?
Well if it was, he missed the first guy. Earlier in the pilot, a guy went straight into the engine and disintegrated.

[KissMESawyer]

It may have just been a part of the on set debris that was being controlled via wires and just was not being controlled very well, and the writers/producers may not have even noticed how it looks like "something" was flying by, it was an awfully QUICK image. I have gone back to look at it again and again (i have it on DVD) and frozen the screen and all that and I would NEVER have noticed it for anything other than debris if it was not mentioned on this board.