LOST Hiatus Rewatch #3 (07/22/09-07/28/09)-S2E1: Man of Science, Man of Faith

[Brian]

This is the discussion thread for the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch - Season 2 Episode 1 , "Man of Science, Man of Faith"

Written by : Damon Lindelof

The original (or as close to original as exists) thread for this episode can be found here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3060).

General questions about the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch can be posted in the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37370).

Episode Description:

Jack and Locke argue over whether or not to enter the Hatch. While looking for Vincent, Shannon sees Walt.

[11Rooster11]

I remember being so upset with this season premier. We wanted to know about the hatch and we got very little in the way of answers. We wanted to know about the raft and got nothing. It doesn't seem so bad now though.

A few things that really jumped out at me.

Desmond was great with Jack at the stadium. The whole miracle cure takes on a whole new meaning now. At the time Locke was the only thing that we knew about that was kinda similar. Now we have Juliet's Sister, Mikhial X2, Malkin's daughter, Naomi and Locke again. So did someone tap into Jacob's power to heal Sarah? Could it have been Desmond? or Christian? If so why? I actually had a moment where I thought Desmond might be Jacob.

The hatch is such a strange place. Everything is so old and antiquated (except the clothes washer & dryer, they looked very modern). Did Jack have other meetings with Desmond? Even though Desmond's speech pattern is so unique, it seems pretty odd that Jack would remember such a brief encounter so long ago unless there was more to the meeting that we weren't shown.

This is one of only times that I can recall where we hear the whispers but there really isn't any impending danger. Walt is there and looking creepy. What is he trying to communicate to Shannon?

I'm excited about season two!:D

[ozanna]

11Rooster11

I'm excited about season two
Me too ! I was a bit sad when S1 finished, but now I'm looking forward to S2

We get a sneak preview of Desmond in the hatch going about his morning duties. It all looks quite normal until he hears an explosion, looks up and sees Jack and Locke looking down at him.

Jack and Locke are still niggling about everythng. Jack wants to take everybody to the hatch to protect them. Locke just wants to get in it and have a good look around. They notice the quarantine sign on the INSIDE of the hatch. WTH ! They decide to go back to the caves.

Meanwhile Shannon has lost Vincent, and Sayid helps her find him. She runs off, trips over, and when she gets up Walt is standing in front of her, wet and talking backwards. Turns out he is saying - "Push the button. Don't push the button. Button bad"..

While Jack and Hurley walk back to the caves Hurley tells Jack that he thinks he's crazy. He has spent time in a mental institution. Now he is afraid his numbers have jinxed him and he is cursed. Jack won't commit.

Locke and Kate are walking back to the caves. Locke tells Kate that he thinks Jack thinks he's crazy. Kate won't commit.

Back at the caves the rest of the losties have been discussing what Shannon saw and worrying about the raft. Jack and co. get back from the hatch to let them know that plan "hide in hatch" is no longer viable. So they will all stay at the caves. Locke gets some cable to go back to get in the hatch. Kate follows him. Jack goes too. I'm getting dizzy here. I think Hurley has given up the unequal struggle !

Locke and Kate arrive back, and Kate offers to be lowered down into it as she's lighter. She suspects Locke thinks there may be something in there that will eat her. I wouldn't go in there for all the tea in China ! Of course the cable breaks and Kate falls in. She's a demolition derby ! Now Jack's arrived back (see what I mean about dizzy !) and they're all in there. Desmond holds them at gunpoint, and Jack recognizes him from ....

Jack's fb. He is running steps in the stadium near the hospital where Sarah is recovering from her surgery. He has gone for a run and meets Desmond who gives him a pep talk about believing in yourself. As he leaves Desmond says See you in another life, Brutha.

Back at the hospital Jack tells Sarah she will never walk again, and then she wiggles her toes .........

Back at the hatch Jack notices Desmond. You .....

[lizzo]

Funny how interpretations can be so different...

Jack becomes Major Annoying in this episode, I don't know if he ever recovers, in my eyes. He just assumes that what he says goes, and he's just waiting for Locke to say or do something to contradict him so he can jump on him. Locke gets all passive-aggressive, and stays that way all season.

Jack's asking Hurley about the numbers is like he's calling Hurley on his behaviour, too. Hurley basically confides in him, and all he hears is "psych ward". Hurley specifically says "I'm not crazy, dude". Jack's just rackin' up the friends here.

I think the definitive What Walt Says is:

Push the button....don't push the button...bad

You could interpret that a few different ways. It could be that Walt is saying you must push the button, if you don't push the button something bad could happen. Or he could be saying it doesn't matter if you push the button or not, it's all bad.

The scene with Desmond and Jack is really weird, looking back on it now that we know more about Desmond. We now know that he's just spoken to Penny. We know that he has flashes, but he didn't start having them until the hatch blew...or did he? Jack seems to know for sure that he didn't fix Sarah, and yet, she is fixed, with no explanation. How could Desmond know that (and he seems to know it)? And "See you in another life, brutha"...yes, yes you will. What's "another life" mean, though? That's the big question.

[ZIA]

Desmond was great with Jack at the stadium. The whole miracle cure takes on a whole new meaning now. At the time Locke was the only thing that we knew about that was kinda similar. Now we have Juliet's Sister, Mikhial X2, Malkin's daughter, Naomi and Locke again. So did someone tap into Jacob's power to heal Sarah? Could it have been Desmond? or Christian? If so why? I actually had a moment where I thought Desmond might be Jacob.



We get a sneak preview of Desmond in the hatch going about his morning duties. It all looks quite normal until he hears an explosion, looks up and sees Jack and Locke looking down at him.

Jack's fb. He is running steps in the stadium near the hospital where Sarah is recovering from her surgery. He has gone for a run and meets Desmond who gives him a pep talk about believing in yourself. As he leaves Desmond says "See ya in another life Brotha."



The scene with Desmond and Jack is really weird, looking back on it now that we know more about Desmond. We now know that he's just spoken to Penny. We know that he has flashes, but he didn't start having them until the hatch blew...or did he? Jack seems to know for sure that he didn't fix Sarah, and yet, she is fixed, with no explanation. How could Desmond know that (and he seems to know it)? And "See you in another life, brutha"...yes, yes you will. What's "another life" mean, though? That's the big question.

I remember freaking out wondering who the Hell Desmond was in the season opener. This episode is all about Desmond, who he is, what the Hell is he doing?, everything...IMO.

Hodge:This was definately a wt? moment for me (most of it). I remember thinking. Are you <?> kidding me? Who is this guy? Why is he giving himself a vaccine?...and holy snip! He's in the hatch.

Based on the conversation with Jack at the stadium, it's easy to assume Desmond had some kind of insight. Of course I would like to believe that."I was almost a Doctor once." "See you in another life, brutha". Who says that?

DESMOND: You must have done something worthy of this self-flagellation.

JACK: I told her -- I made her a promise I couldn't keep -- I told her I'd fix her and I couldn't. I failed.

DESMOND: Right. Just one thing -- what if you did fix her?

JACK: I didn't.

DESMOND: But what if you did?

JACK: You don't know what you're talking about, man.

DESMOND: I don't? Why not?

JACK: Because with her situation that would be a miracle, brother.

DESMOND: Oh, and you don't believe in miracles? [Jack chuckles and shakes his head] Right. Well then, I'm going to give you some advice anyway. You have to lift it up. (He may be saying "lift her up".)

JACK: Lift it up?

DESMOND: Your ankle. You have to keep it elevated. It's been nice chatting.
JACK: Jack.

DESMOND: Jack, I'm Desmond. Good luck, brother. See you in another life, yeah?

A lot of firsts were introduced too. Yeah, I love this episode. It's one of my favorites.

Someone in the hatch!, Desmond, no less...we see the painting for the first time (love the painting), there's some kind of magnetic force in the hatch and Creepy Walt.
Brilliant set-up. I actually thought TPTB didn't disappoint with this as the S2 opener.

[ozchick]

Hodge:This was definately a wt? moment for me (most of it). I remember thinking. Are you <?> kidding me? Who is this guy? Why is he giving himself a vaccine?...and holy snip! He's in the hatch.

I had this exact same thought. I remember thinking "Is it Locke?" because I was trying to match the items to a time frame, but when it turned out he was in the hatch, I just gaped at the screen.

I love Foxy's Party of Five hair in this flashback. :D

Hurley's got some great moments in this ep. Mr. Ha Ha to Jack and telling him his bedside manner sucks.

Did we ever figure out what was up with the shoes when Jack first enters the hatch? They're Locke's, right? I vaguely remember someone saying he took them off because he thought he was on hallowed ground.

When this first aired, a friend of mine's toddler had fallen asleep in the living room when he and his wife were watching this, and when Make Your Own Kind of Music blasted the second time, he grabbed the remote and hit mute so she wouldn't wake up, and the captions automatically came on. The captions showed there was a "muffled voice" yelling Jack three times over the music, and I remember at the time we were so confused as to what that was all about. Until a few weeks later when we got to see Kate in the vent.

Understatement of the year: I'm intense - Jack Shepherd

No Sawyer, no nicknames. :(

[Darkrogue]

I don’t have the dvds yet but there’s no reason I can’t yak about it some. While I wasn’t thrilled with S2 overall (I know, go on and tar and feather me), I do remember being immediately intrigued by Desmond. I wanted to know who he was, why he was down there, and finally, how he got there and why. And then when I saw him—let’s just say I was even more curious. ;)

I wonder if there is any particular significance to Desmond having almost been a doctor?

The first time I saw the episode, I remembered blinking my eyes when Charlie told Shannon there were no Others. Thinking about it now, I suppose he could be referring to the isolated situation of the smoke signal, but it sounded a lot like he meant to say there were no Others at all—which would be very OOC for him to say.

lizzo:
Push the button....don't push the button...bad

I don’t know if they will ever return to that point of interest. I would like to see it happen, because they made it seem as though the button and hatch had a greater significance to the overall story arc. Even back and season one, when Walt freaked out and said to Locke “don’t open that thing!”—we were led to believe there was something very creepy and dangerous about the hatch. I have to hope they’ll return to that subject sometime, but something makes me think the hatch’s story ended when it went ker-blam--which is kind of disappointing, really.

Still, I might be wrong. In a way, I hope I am.

[Locke 'n' Load]

We start off by seeing Desmond’s eye (although we do not know who he is yet). He wakes up with a start as he hears the computer alarm and goes immediately to enter the numbers (of course we know that only now and not then). :)

I figured like many of you that this opening scene might have been a flashback of one of our losties (someone with brown eyes)…but couldn’t figure who it might be. Nice little bachelor apartment.:music:

Wet Walt…Way Weird!:headache:

. Hurley basically confides in him (Jack), and all he hears is "psych ward


Hurley's got some great moments in this ep. Mr. Ha Ha to Jack and telling him his bedside manner sucks.

I agree, Lizzo and Ozchick, Hurley spills his whole story to Jack and Dr. Fixit just picks up on the fact that he was in a pysch ward. Typical Jacko. And Hurley’s nickname for Jack—Mr. Ha Ha was hilarious along with telling him his bedside manner sucks.

I liked Christian Shepherd’s advice to his son. Although I don’t think a doctor should lie, I believe in giving some kind of hope in all situations. I certainly would fire Jack-o as my doctor based on his personality…cold and negative.:protest:

I was pleased to see Kate follow Locke to the hatch. He knew she would follow. Just intuition?



When this first aired, a friend of mine's toddler had fallen asleep in the living room when he and his wife were watching this, and when Make Your Own Kind of Music blasted the second time, he grabbed the remote and hit mute so she wouldn't wake up, and the captions automatically came on. The captions showed there was a "muffled voice" yelling Jack three times over the music, and I remember at the time we were so confused as to what that was all about. Until a few weeks later when we got to see Kate in the vent.

I, like most people, missed hearing Kate yell Jack’s name the first time we saw this episode. With hindsight (hind-hearing ) I listened for it and heard it this time.:coffeedunk:



Jack seems to know for sure that he didn't fix Sarah, and yet, she is fixed, with no explanation. How could Desmond know that (and he seems to know it?

I found this exchange interesting also. Jack said he did not fix his patient, however he had not seen her post-op yet. How could he know her status? Why the self flagellation unless you are sure of her condition? On the other hand, Desmond had no idea that Jack hadn’t seen his patient post-op yet. For all he knew several days could have passed and yet he still asks why Jack knew for sure he didn’t fix Sarah. :confused:



I wonder if there is any particular significance to Desmond having almost been a doctor?


I can’t remember…was there any mention of Desmond “almost being a doctor” in any other episodes? I seem to be drawing a blank 


Did we ever figure out what was up with the shoes when Jack first enters the hatch? They're Locke's, right? I vaguely remember someone saying he took them off because he thought he was on hallowed ground.(

I think he took them off because they were wet and making squishing noises. He wanted to be stealth-Locke.:D

[ZIA]

Did we ever figure out what was up with the shoes when Jack first enters the hatch? They're Locke's, right? I vaguely remember someone saying he took them off because he thought he was on hallowed ground.

I love this explanation, but LNL could be right too. I thought it was very odd and it was not until Mr. Friendly gave the speech about "going into another man's house, etc." that I gave it another thought.


I don’t know if they will ever return to that point of interest. I would like to see it happen, because they made it seem as though the button and hatch had a greater significance to the overall story arc. Even back and season one, when Walt freaked out and said to Locke “don’t open that thing!”—we were led to believe there was something very creepy and dangerous about the hatch. I have to hope they’ll return to that subject sometime, but something makes me think the hatch’s story ended when it went ker-blam--which is kind of disappointing, really.

Still, I might be wrong. In a way, I hope I am.
You know? I feel the same way about the hatch, it was such a bad way to end the mystery. I was completely unhappy with the way TPTB handled the whole Swan enigma. Completely disappointing.


I agree, Lizzo and Ozchick, Hurley spills his whole story to Jack and Dr. Fixit just picks up on the fact that he was in a pysch ward. Typical Jacko. And Hurley’s nickname for Jack—Mr. Ha Ha was hilarious along with telling him his bedside manner sucks.

It said a lot to me that poor Hurley literally spilled his guts about himself to Jack and that was Jacks' jist of the whole tirade? "You were in a psych. ward?" I'm sure the scene was playing into the whole "bedside manner" plotline, but it was rough.

[Fletcher]

I'm not sure if I agree with the hatch not having a greater significance to the overall story arc. Opening the hatch eventually led to the hatch blowing up at the end of the season in all it's electro-magnetic glory, which allowed Penny to find the Island. That story-arc, which was a consequence of the hatch and what it did, is now hugely important.

[abcdxyz]

I wonder if there is any particular significance to Desmond having almost been a doctor?

I don't know, but remember, he was also almost a monk. He kind of bridges the man of science/man of faith divide, doesn't he?

[ZIA]

I'm not sure if I agree with the hatch not having a greater significance to the overall story arc. Opening the hatch eventually led to the hatch blowing up at the end of the season in all it's electro-magnetic glory, which allowed Penny to find the Island. That story-arc, which was a consequence of the hatch and what it did, is now hugely important.
That's a great point, Fletcher! I completely missed it.

I don't know, but remember, he was also almost a monk. He kind of bridges the man of science/man of faith divide, doesn't he?
He does. Desmond is one of my Favorites. I think Desmond and Danielle are the wildcards of LOST. (IMO)

[Darkrogue]

I mentioned this before, but I loved the opening. Desmond is so intense. Love the arsenal. :D

I think Desmond might be my second favorite character after you-know-who. (Hmm, one of my “pets” is a junkie, and the other a raging alcoholic. Why am I partial to the addicts?)

Another Jack episode, so soon. Whoop de-do. Still, it wasn't so bad, if you take a pee break during the majority of the flashbacks. :nanabobo: The Desmond one was of interest. Otherwise, Jackbacks put me to sleep.

Jack becomes Major Annoying in this episode, I don't know if he ever recovers, in my eyes. He just assumes that what he says goes, and he's just waiting for Locke to say or do something to contradict him so he can jump on him. Locke gets all passive-aggressive, and stays that way all season.

Jack's asking Hurley about the numbers is like he's calling Hurley on his behaviour, too. Hurley basically confides in him, and all he hears is "psych ward". Hurley specifically says "I'm not crazy, dude". Jack's just rackin' up the friends here.

Season 2 was when he really started to bother me. The Hurley scene was particularly annoying, as practically everyone else has already pointed out. Especially since Jack encouraged him to confide in him in the first place. Then he just disregards the whole story. His bedside manner “sucks” all right.

And no, he never did recover. He got worse.


I can’t remember…was there any mention of Desmond “almost being a doctor” in any other episodes? I seem to be drawing a blank 

I don't think he has mentioned it again. I was wondering if we would see it in a flashback.

I don't know, but remember, he was also almost a monk. He kind of bridges the man of science/man of faith divide, doesn't he?

Cool observation. And you're right. I hadn't thought of that! I've always classified him in the "faith" camp, but when you look at it that way, he kind of does represent both.

[catnap]

I did not get to watch the whole epi yet as the disc froze. But, why is the hatch so light inside when it is dark outside? It seems like it is morning for Desmond, obviously his schedule is messed up having to wake up every 108 min., but why does it seem like sun is shining through windows? For example, the breakfast nook seems to have a window and there is light coming from it. Just the way the hatch is lit?

[lizzo]

I did not get to watch the whole epi yet as the disc froze. But, why is the hatch so light inside when it is dark outside? It seems like it is morning for Desmond, obviously his schedule is messed up having to wake up every 108 min., but why does it seem like sun is shining through windows? For example, the breakfast nook seems to have a window and there is light coming from it. Just the way the hatch is lit?

There's a point in the next episode when Locke points to the window by the table and says something like "That simulated sunlight? Is that because you never leave?" I don't think they ever talked about it again, but I would guess it was on some kind of timer so that it would appear to be daytime, even though they're underground.

[catnap]

Thanks Lizzo, that makes sense.

[Lost In A Vortex]

Hi... I just watched this epi tonight; I am WAY behind on the rewatch schedule, partly because I had never seen S1 before and was viewing the episodes over repeatedly. So FINALLY I have made it to S2, and FINALLY I understand what was going on in this episode, because I was totally confused the first time around!

The part that really stood out for me tonight was the scene with Desmond and Jack in the stadium. Now I think that Desmond really is able to travel through time, which I never believed before. It was just so uncanny, the way he almost insisted to Jack that Sarah was going to be OK.... like he somehow knew. The feeling I got from this scene was that this was Desmond back from the future after he already knew Jack on the island, then he went back in time and somehow did something to "fix" Sarah.

And as for Walt apparing to Shannon, it seems to me that he can somehow travel through space the way Desmond seems to be able to travel through time, but Desmond has a lot more control over what he can do in his travels, possibly because he's been doing it longer?

Just my thoughts; hope it makes some sense, it's getting late but I wanted to post now that I finally have a working computer again! :)

[ZIA]

It makes complete sense to me.
Welcome to the rewatch Lost In A Vortex! If you need anything, let us know. :D

[sweetsunray]

The first images of Desmond!!!!! From the start he was immensely intruiging... and though he's not the focus I identify with he is my favourite character on the island! And not just because of his accent and his intrigue... I will admit that his looks do have some impact. That open shirt of his always makes me want to tear it off. His love story is epical, and you don't get to be annoyed by triangles and such with it. You hardly get a glimpse of Penny. Please, don't ever hook up Desmond to anybody else than Penny. Although I wonder about my sanity for preferring the runaway groom character of the lot. Anyway, enough drooling... on to the episode.

HURLEY: 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42. 4, 8, we're dead, 15, doomed and dead, 16, 23, 42... In the pevious finale it already crossed my mind, but here it is again... Hurley's starting to sound like Lenny.

JACK: It doesn't matter what it is. We blew the door so we could get everyone inside this thing so we could be safe. That plan is not going to work. We'll never get everyone down in time.
Makes sense to me. That hatch is not going to grow feet and run away anytime soon. As far as they know the Others are still intending to attack and get Aaron. Jack and Locke could be needed there.
KATE: 40 feet down?
KATE: Jack?
You had his back, huh?
LOCKE: We all went through a lot to get here, Jack.
Yup, but you can still go down there tomorrow, or the day after, or next week. Doesn't matter all that much. As far as anybody else knows you're needed at the caves. Now that it's open, you've got all the time in the world. Oh, well 108 mins to be precise.
LOCKE: Why don't we all just calm down here.
Nobody's panicking. You're just stalling because the curiosity kills the cat. Survival is all relative, isn't it.
Jack: How about you pack it up, John?
LOCKE: Sure, of course.
...
LOCKE: Why don't you want to go down there, Jack?
Ok, my blood starts to boil already. And it's going to stay that way throughout S2. Jack already explained: there's 40 people at the caves, fearing the coming of the Others. The plan was to open the hatch and hide everyone there if possible, and Locke never opposed it. That's not a feasible plan anymore, so Locke can go explore it some other time. But survival's all relative to Locke, and so he needs to make it personal and have to know what's in the hatch now (BTW as a viewer I'm dying with curiosity too).
Locke got a hand to open the damn stupid thing he's been staring at for 3 weeks on the day after he showed it to Jack, but he wants an arm.
For me, Locke moved right into rival position for his own selfish reasons, not listening to any argument about the group, the same reasons that made him conceal things from Boone which led to his death.
Now rivals are often fairly easy to solve ime. I give them as much responsibilty as possible, even come up with an excuse that I need to do some stuff, hand for example my maps and first-aid kit over to them and tell them I have a lot of confidence in them in accomplishing the plan for the group. You don't want to know how fast I'll get the kit and maps back and they become true asset helpers. And honestly, Locke doesn't want the responsibility of the camp, much less than Jack.
Ok, so let Locke just explore on his own and Jack return with Hurley and Kate. Why take it on himself? Here's my take on it, and this based on having had people who regularly try to get their own way, whether or not it's in the group's interest and will try to take other people down with it (this is beyond a mere rival thinking he knows better than you. Sometimes they do, and there's no shame in that.). I'm talking pathological (and yes, I've had someone once who's motto in life was "I only do what I want"). Even if people are adults and have the right to do and not do with their lives whatever they want, as appointed leader you feel responsible. And truthfully, anybody else will behave as if you have the ultimate responsibility. So, Jack, certainly him, will feel responsible what Locke's behaviour may have as an impact. He trusted Locke on his own and that ended up Boone killed. After learning all the lies, he learned to recognize that Locke's goal may not be beneficial to the survival of the group. He's able to lay that doubt aside for a while once he learns about Locke's find, the hatch and sees that as an opportunity for the benefit of the group. Yet, he's not sure whether he can trust Locke. He wants to try and trust him, and therefore asks Locke what makes him tick, what's going on in his mind. He would be able to shrug the fate-science difference off, but for two glaring declarations Locke made at the end of S1: (a) Locke does not recognize his own part in Boone's death anymore, but calls it the sacrifice the island demanded... not the smartest thing he could have said to the doctor who poured his own blood in Boone's veins until he looked Goth (another link to Claire) (b) Locke also declares survival is all relative. Jack still recognizes Locke can be an asset, but he can't trust him anymore. And after what happened to Boone he's very unwilling to let Locke out of his sight, let alone Locke and someone else. Instead of letting Locke run around alone as he did before, Jack now opts to keep Locke close. He simply won't be able to get even an hour of sleep if he doesn't know what Locke's up to.
Of course it's stupid. He can't be Locke's watchdog, and I understand it's very insulting to Locke lovers. Locke is well able to survive by himself. As I said, personally I would have put Locke outside of the group, exactly because I know that you can't be anyone's watchdog, because it'll wear you down, tax almost all of your concentration and time, and well eventually adult people get to decide what they do or not do by themselves. Trying to make people comply into cooperation will only result in tension and needing to watch your back. But Jack is indeed too inexperienced to foresee that. And his natural reaction is keep thy enemy close. In the case of Locke that will only work if you have nerves of steel, and Jack doesn't have those.
Yup, Jack is controlling and feels a high need for it. Above I tried to explain where I think it stems for. I sympathize with it, though I don't agree with it. And although he uses the "we" concept he mangles it up, quickly getting on the defensive and turning it an I-you conversation, which comes across as domineering and hostile and the instinctive response to that is an I-you back. For a moment, Jack should have tried to formulate a we-request or an I-request for help where he showed his need for Locke to chose to come back to the group and leave it alone for one more night. But the way he said it, he wanted Locke to comply. Yes, the natural reaction is to cower under that display of power for a moment (Sure, of course), but it does not reel in Locke... it only accomplishes Locke masking his intentions.
There are times when a hostile domineering reaction to a group member actually may be justified, but you must be willing to accept the consequences of that. It can only be a short-term solution, because it doesn't whisk the situation away, only masks it and in the long run uncontrollable.

Wet Walt... I can hear Smokey sounds on the background (the bubbly sound), almost covered up with the swelling of the music score.

HUrley-Jack: Oy, Jack! Ever heard of selective hearing? The man tells you his biggest secret: psych ward, the numbers, lottery win and bad luck. You're the only on the island who knows about it. It says a lot he trusts you with it. He doesn't even try to tell Charlie that, and you go, "You were in a psych ward?" It's a start of showing you were listening, but I think something like, "Ok, so you're saying that you learned those same numbers on the hatch from someone in a psych ward?" Could have created an opening from Hurley to reveal how Lenny knew about them, hmmm. Hurley has been an incredible valuable person. No, he's not often on missions, but he sure is good with administration and group atmosphere, exactly the stuff you struggle with. He's also a good source of information on what's going on in the group.

LOCKE: I'm getting some cable.
JACK: What for?
LOCKE: It's for the hatch. I'm going in.
JACK: Do you really think that's the smartest thing to do right now, John?
LOCKE: I doubt it. In fact, you're right. The safest thing is to stay here -- wait for morning -- wait for these Others, to see if they show up -- wait for the brave folks on the raft to bring help -- but me, I'm tired of waiting. [Locke exits].
What did I tell ya, Jack. You're not going to be able to control Locke, so don't you even try it. The only thing you can do is ask, "Locke, I know you need to do this, want to do this. But I'm going to be sick of worry. I'd like to be able to help you. But could you do me a favour and wait until the morning? It's only a few hours. They won't make that much difference to you, but to me they will."

KATE: You did a good thing saying what you said -- taking care of everybody and just giving them something to count on. If you weren't here, Jack... [long pause] I'm going to the hatch. I understand why you can't go. They need you here. I get it. I do. But Locke's going into that thing whether you like it or not. And if he falls and breaks his neck? Live together, die alone, right?
So far for Kate covering his back, but she's trying to be gentle about it. Ok, so Jack had figured out that his attempt to keep Locke close went to nowhere. But now Kate's going down there too. Instead of dying Boone images, Jack's head must now be filled with similar images as Boone but with Kate's face. He's able to trust Locke to come back alive when he's by himself, but he doesn't trust anybody else's safety who's with Locke. He won't be able to rest for a minute, and who else is going to want to go down there. Sayid? He doesn't want to have anything to do with entering the hatch. So, up he goes, after Kate and Locke.

LOCKE: I was waiting for you.
Of course you were. You tried to win her sympathy by suggesting the straw method. She can't let anybody do something by themselves. And Kate's curiosity kills the cat even more than yours.

KATE: Maybe we should... [Locke continues lowering her down] Well, okay then
Kate don't you know it's only Locke's way? He hasn't learned a thing from Boone yet.

DESMOND: I was almost a doctor once.
As I once posted in the Odysseus theory of Desmond... Odysseus was a cunning man, who went in many disguises and pretended to be many different men through occupation. Desmond too goes through a great many changes of "job" choices: almost a doctor, a novice monk, the army, a sailor, saviour of the world
DESMOND: You alright, brother?
Another Oddyseus reference, modern one... the movie "O brother where art thou"
DESMOND: Right. Just one thing -- what if you did fix her?
JACK: I didn't.
DESMOND: But what if you did?
JACK: You don't know what you're talking about, man.
DESMOND: I don't? Why not?
JACK: Because with her situation that would be a miracle, brother.
DESMOND: Oh, and you don't believe in miracles?
Yeah, I agree this relates to Desmond's foresight (not traveling in time imo), which also ties in with Oddysseus. Odysseus' story before and during the Troyan war was full of oracled prophecies, things that needed to be avoided and achieved in order to win the war against Troy, which would take him one step at least closer back to home. Odysseus initially wasn't eager to go into the Troyan war because it had been prophesised that once it was over he'd lose his way on the sea and kept from getting back home for ten years afterwards, but once he could not avoid it, he was one of the guys who was mostly eager to get it over with asap, and he helped fate along by going on several prophecy missions to avoid losing the war and to secure a fateful win. This is a direct tie to Desmond's flashes. Desmond too is constant on missions to avoid certain fates and at the same time move them forward, just like Odysseus.
Desmond: See you in another life, yeah?
That sentence alone already made you think what's up with this man?

Jack in panic mode again... in his mind he must see Kate shot, dead, bloodied up, somewhere when he notices Locke by himself. If you'd stop shouting you might have heard her above you in the vent.
JACK [recognizing that it's Desmond]: You.
Oooooooooh, more! more! more!

[Locke 'n' Load]

But now Kate's going down there too. Instead of dying Boone images, Jack's head must now be filled with similar images as Boone but with Kate's face. He's able to trust Locke to come back alive when he's by himself, but he doesn't trust anybody else's safety who's with Locke. He won't be able to rest for a minute, and who else is going to want to go down there. Sayid? He doesn't want to have anything to do with entering the hatch. So, up he goes, after Kate and Locke.


After all you said about the safety of the Losties in the caves and chiding Locke for not caring to stay and help, we now see our "leader" leave them by themselves for what he wants! :rolleyez:

BTW: How's that "You don't know Jack" club going?:sleepzzz:

I can't wait for you to catch up with the re-watch, sweetsunray. Our discussions will be fun and interesting. :D

[ozanna]

Sweetsunray - I just noticed your reference to "O Brother Where Art Thou". This has nothing to do with anything but it is one of my favourite movies of all time. And the music was terrific. I love the Coen Brothers movies, and I heard a rumour once that Josh Holloway was going for a part in one. You could do a lot worse Josh, they are true class.

This Jack/Locke business is getting to be a bit tiresome. Locke, for all his survival techniques and his knowledge, really only wants to do his own thing. Despite all his pep talks and encouragement to everyone in Season One he has now shown his true colours. He has his own agenda. Jack, who is totally unskilled in this environment, is running around in ever decreasing circles until he ends up disappearing up his own vortex ! He really needs to get some of the others (not the Others) involved. While he and Locke are constantly circling each other like aging kings of the jungle no one knows whats going on and what to do. I think I've been through all this before !

[Locke 'n' Load]

Ozanna, you're so right about the Locke/Jack situation. They are always at odds with one another. It reminds me of family members during the holidays. It's the only time of year some relatives see each other but because the don't like each other there is always tension in the air that makes everyone else uncomfortable. Our Losties are just one big dysfunctional family with two alpha males beating their chests to show who is bigger/better/stronger/smarter. :D

[sweetsunray]

After all you said about the safety of the Losties in the caves and chiding Locke for not caring to stay and help, we now see our "leader" leave them by themselves for what he wants! :rolleyez:
Jack did not chide Locke for not caring to stay and help. He asked whether that was a smart idea, Locke defended himself and went, and Jack let it rest.

The safety of all is always at Jack's mind and he chooses to be there where he's most needed. Once Kate goes after Locke, he feels that her safety is more at risk than the safety of the whole group at the caves. He has had time to let the new information about Charlie crying there are no Others out there coming for them sink in, and time to see that the redshirts are quiet and not panicking.


BTW: How's that "You don't know Jack" club going?:sleepzzz:
I'm spreading the word here, aren't I? ;)


I can't wait for you to catch up with the re-watch, sweetsunray. Our discussions will be fun and interesting. :D

Agreed.

[Locke 'n' Load]

Jack did not chide Locke for not caring to stay and help. He asked whether that was a smart idea, Locke defended himself and went, and Jack let it rest.

The safety of all is always at Jack's mind and he chooses to be there where he's most needed. Once Kate goes after Locke, he feels that her safety is more at risk than the safety of the whole group at the caves. He has had time to let the new information about Charlie crying there are no Others out there coming for them sink in, and time to see that the redshirts are quiet and not panicking. .


Sweetsunray, I meant that you chided Locke for going to the hatch and not caring for and staying with the Losties. But when Jack leaves them to follow Kate you defend him for it. That seems contradictory to me.

[sweetsunray]

I didn't really chide him, only posted regarding the scene where Locke decides to go back for the hatch that
a) Jack was wrong to try and make Locke comply to his will, and the effort was useless.
b) put an example of communication out there on how Jack should have requested Locke to stay for a few more hours...
So, I guess that in fact I chided Jack at that point. I chided Locke about it when Locke/Hurley/Kate and Jack had not yet gone back to the caves, had not heard Sayid and Charlie's information of not seeing any Others at all, so in general were still in the dark of the safety of the Losties at the caves.

Back to the moment at the caves, comparing Locke's decision to go back to the hatch as well as Jack's. You mention that both do what they want to do. Although, that's true that's quite a simplistic representation here imo. It has everything to do with the reason for going down there in the first place.
Locke's decision: there's nobody to save or keep from harm at the hatch when he wants to go out there. 3 hours of waiting would not have made a difference in the negative. More likely, there would have been more people who'd have wanted to help. Locke decides to go down there out of pure curiosity.
Kate's decision: Unlike Jack she's not confident that Locke can take care of himself. She's wrong, because Locke was well able to take care of himself out there with Desmond as we see afterwards when he's having his tea-tray mood chat with Dessy. But at least once Locke went, she has a to me perfect valid reason to go down there: she suspects Locke might come to harm.
Jack's decision: Jack's confident Locke can take care of himself, but he does not trust anybody alone with Locke to remain unharmed for reasons mentioned many times before already. Both in Jack's as well as Kate's decision time makes all the difference. They can't wait until the sun rises because that might mean Locke or Kate may have come to harm in those 3 hours.

So, all three of them decide to do what they want, but the reasons for doing what they want differ and in one case are not as justifiable. Motivation can make all the difference.

Do I think Locke was wrong to go down there? No, not really. The Losties were safe and not panicking, and the three of them could all go down. At the point where Locke leaves, it only might affect the Losties in that they worry over the safety of Locke, Kate and Jack. But the timing could have been chosen better.

[Locke 'n' Load]

LOCKE: Why don't you want to go down there, Jack?
Ok, my blood starts to boil already. And it's going to stay that way throughout S2. Jack already explained: there's 40 people at the caves, fearing the coming of the Others. The plan was to open the hatch and hide everyone there if possible, and Locke never opposed it. That's not a feasible plan anymore, so Locke can go explore it some other time. But survival's all relative to Locke, and so he needs to make it personal and have to know what's in the hatch now (BTW as a viewer I'm dying with curiosity too).
Locke got a hand to open the damn stupid thing he's been staring at for 3 weeks on the day after he showed it to Jack, but he wants an arm.
For me, Locke moved right into rival position for his own selfish reasons, not listening to any argument about the group, the same reasons that made him conceal things from Boone which led to his death.


….But now Kate's going down there too. Instead of dying Boone images, Jack's head must now be filled with similar images as Boone but with Kate's face. He's able to trust Locke to come back alive when he's by himself, but he doesn't trust anybody else's safety who's with Locke. He won't be able to rest for a minute, and who else is going to want to go down there. Sayid? He doesn't want to have anything to do with entering the hatch. So, up he goes, after Kate and Locke.



My point is that your blood boils at the thought that Locke would defy Jack and go to the hatch instead of staying with the group at the caves. Yet when Jack leaves the group at the caves to go after Kate you justify his reasoning. So he should leave the group and go after the one? I don’t think he was putting the best interests of the group ahead of his own. And BTW, I don’t believe Kate went in to protect Locke if he fell. She may have said that, but she was just as curious as Locke to see what was inside.

[sweetsunray]

Locke 'n Load: My point is that your blood boils at the thought that Locke would defy Jack and go to the hatch instead of staying with the group at the caves.

I've already explained the difference in timing of the situation about it in the previous post with this: "I chided Locke about it when Locke/Hurley/Kate and Jack had not yet gone back to the caves, had not heard Sayid and Charlie's information of not seeing any Others at all, so in general were still in the dark of the safety of the Losties at the caves." Notice that my blood didn't boil when Locke went for the hatch once they had already gone to the caves, even if it "defies" Jack's will.
So, instead of only noticing a disparity between when Jack leaves for the hatch and when Locke wants to go before they've gone back to the caves, you might as well point out a disparity in response when Locke wants to go in BEFORE returning to the caves, as well as when Locke leaves AFTER they returned to the caves. You're being very selective with my words and ignore my answers to them in order to construe a favoritism that isn't there as much as you try to make it out. Repeating the same complaint over and over and ignoring the answers for it is not helping your point imo.

Locke'n Load: Yet when Jack leaves the group at the caves to go after Kate you justify his reasoning. So he should leave the group and go after the one?

I've already answered that twice, yes. You don't need to be around the majority of the group as a leader once it's way clear it's safe with them, certianly not when individuals who are members of that group are in danger.

Locke'n Load: I don’t think he was putting the best interests of the group ahead of his own.

I disagree, since "his" interest is that of the safety of any member of the group, including that of Locke (as he proved by ignoring Locke's request to let him go when Smokey was pulling Locke's legs). Yeah, he's extra worried because it's Kate, a love interest. BUt is it solely out of that? Just ask yourself: would Jack would have gone down there if it had been Charlie/Hurley instead of Kate following Locke? For me, the answer is a yes. When I wonder whether he would have gone down there if it had been Sayid who followed Locke, I'm thinking, "No". Not because he cares less, but would have regarded Sayid as quite able to work with Locke and save his own hide if there was any need for it.
And the last question I ask myself is what if Locke and Kate had left, but Charlie and Sayid had met Others who were on their way to the caves? He would have been frustrated, torn and angry, but would have chosen to remain at the cave (under pressure of Hurley and Sayid) and fight it out.
It's as if you think Jack should stay with the main body of the group as a pacifier at all times and never go on a mission at all. Now that's silly. The group doesn't need a watchdog, but group individuals can always use a helping hand.

Kate: probably a bit of both, curiosity + need to help. She always has the need to help, and I don't see why she would lack the need now only because it's weighted with curiosity. Even if she had not been curious at all, she would have gone down there.

[Locke 'n' Load]

. You're being very selective with my words and ignore my answers to them in order to construe a favoritism that isn't there as much as you try to make it out. Repeating the same complaint over and over and ignoring the answers for it is not helping your point imo.


I’m sorry if you thought I was misconstruing what you wrote on purpose. I guess I missed the distinction of when your blood boiled at Locke for wanting to go into the hatch that night. I need to slow down when I read so I don’t miss these things.

However, there is indeed a favoritism in most of your posts (You are a member of the You Don’t Know Jack Club), but that is okay, because everyone’s posts have an element of favoritism to a particular Lostie at times. That way we know where the other members stand with their loyalties and can agree or disagree with them.


There is no reason we can’t comment on each other’s posts if we disagree. This forum gives us the opportunity to do just that. I felt I saw a contradiction in what you posted and made mention of that fact. Thank you for clearing it up. Again :D :D

[ozanna]

Huh ! I bet no one knows who my favourite is.:D:D:D:D

LnL - its good that we can comment in here and have our own opinions and hopefully not get up anyone's nose ! Each to his own. If we all liked the same people it would be quite boring.

So keep the posts coming or I may have to resort back to housework !

Btw Sweetsunray- as I said I try to be tolerant with Jack, but its hard - just wait til you see what I wrote in "Two for the Road !" No hard feelings !
As you said previously he took on the position of leader reluctantly ....

[sweetsunray]

I’m sorry if you thought I was misconstruing what you wrote on purpose. I guess I missed the distinction of when your blood boiled at Locke for wanting to go into the hatch that night. I need to slow down when I read so I don’t miss these things.

However, there is indeed a favoritism in most of your posts (You are a member of the You Don’t Know Jack Club), but that is okay, because everyone’s posts have an element of favoritism to a particular Lostie at times. That way we know where the other members stand with their loyalties and can agree or disagree with them.


There is no reason we can’t comment on each other’s posts if we disagree. This forum gives us the opportunity to do just that. I felt I saw a contradiction in what you posted and made mention of that fact. Thank you for clearing it up. Again :D :D

Yes, we can disagree and agree... I did not take that as offensive, and I did not mind trying to point a perceived inconsistency (I'm quite used to debate). But I had tried to explain the differences as well as different reactions to Locke depending on the moment in my two answers before the last. So, after a third time it started to come across as ignoring answers. No harm done.

And yes, there is favoritism, in the sense that I do not resent Jack... but I hope not one where I resent a character simply because Jack and that character don't see everything eye-to-eye. I still hope that I can see the qualities in other characters such as Locke as well as see Jack's mistakes and failings. That I will try to apply understanding to all, even if not agreement.

[jane_eire]

The Hatch is full of mirrors.

[sweetsunray]

The Hatch is full of mirrors.


And most especially... there are several mirrors dividing Desmond from Locke and Jack looking down into the hatch. If I recall right, it should be about 3 along the path. A con/reversel in a con/reversal in a con/reversal?

[jane_eire]

A mirror for the perspective of each person entering the hatch. One for Jack, one for Locke, one for Kate, and Desmond gets the telescope.

[ZIA]

Jane-Your mirror observations are inspired. :)

[sweetsunray]

Actually I went back to the start and counted them... there are 5 mirrors, which would fit the 5 characters who enter it first... Kate, Locke, Jack, Sayid and Hurley. Yes, that might be the explanation.

[jane_eire]

Oh good! 5 mirrors! That's so much better than 3.

[sweetsunray]

Oh good! 5 mirrors! That's so much better than 3.

Have no idea why, but I'm sure you'll enlighten us. ;)

So, Desmond is in the Hatch. Kate enters. Then Locke. Then Jack. Who comes in next? Hurley and then Sayid?
Hurley and Sayid don't enter before Orientation, when Kate goes to get Sayid because the computer is broken. And I've just watched that scene. They don't actually show who of those two enters the hatch first, not even when they enter the computer hall (the camera moves away). But Hurley's closest to Kate the moment we get the three of them together in view and she's asking for Jack to Locke (Jacke is after Desmond), and Sayid is a little more behind her. So, I'd say that Hurley entered before Sayid, as they entered together through the front door, instead of being lowered through the hatch itself.

[ZIA]

LOST Hiatus Rewatch: Week 9
Weds., July 22th-28th
2009
S2E21: Man of Science, Man of Faith

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/zia29112/LOST%20Stuff/300px-Lost-season1.jpg

[World Walker]

Beep…beep…beep…goes the hatch computer. Looks like we’re in Season 2! :)

This has got to be my favorite post-season one opening scene. What makes it so unique is how it disorients us with a storytelling style we haven’t experienced before. We see a man, but we don’t know who he is, and we see a place, but we don’t know where it is. We’re disconnected without any reference to what we’ve seen previously in the show. Inevitably, the scene reveals that this man and this place are tied to the Island. In this case, the interior of the hatch is revealed in the first minutes of the season in a truly spectacular scene. Later, this technique is duplicated to a degree in Season 3’s (Juliet amongst the Others) opening scene and Season 5’s (Pierre Chang in the Dharma Initiative) opening scene, but to a lesser effect.

Another note about the opening scene: I love how many subtle hints they threw in about things not being quite right. The old computer, the strange injections, the record player, and the faint explosion from above were the biggest clues that revealed this was all in the hatch. Then, of course, we see all the guns and the security mirrors which reveal Locke and Jack gaping down the hatch’s long shaft.

Did I mention the music? We’ve got this nice, calming song and then right after the explosion, we’ve got this really tense music rife with conflict. Both worked really well in the scene. :thumbs_up

OMG, it’s Bad-Wig Jack! :nanabobo:

So, Jack made a choice to save Sarah rather than Mr. Rutherford and his time of death was 8:15 am. I almost forgot how many connections between the crash survivors the writers put into the story during Seasons 1-3.

Charlie’s convinced Rousseau set the black column of smoke herself. Sayid, however, doesn’t look convinced. Honestly, I’m not really sold either. Granted, we haven’t seen the Others ever make one of those black columns of smoke, but I just don’t think Danielle did. Remember, she said there was black smoke before they took Alex away, so the Others had to’ve set it at least once regardless of her involvement. She warned that they would take the boy and she was right. It happened exactly as she said, only they took the older boy, not the newborn. This is one of those things we may never get a definitive answer about.

Creepy Moment #1: Quarantine on the hatch door.

Creepy Moment #2: Vincent just sitting on his haunches in the dark.

Creepy Moment #3: Did anyone catch the camera angle right after Shannon tripped and collapsed in the jungle? The perspective was over her head as if something was watching her from above. Then we start hearing the whispers, which we’ve associated whenever the Others are around. We see no Others, however, but Wet Walt. He puts his finger to his lips in a manner very reminiscent of that choir boy who haunts Eko right before he’s killed in The Cost of Living. It’s strongly suggested that Smokey was behind the boy’s appearance in the latter episode. If so, then Wet Walt may be nothing more than a Smokey manifestation.

Locke in regards to the black smoke monster: “I wonder what Jack thinks he saw.” – This is a cool quote, because it reminds me of when Locke moved the Island and Jack refused to believe it happened even though he witnessed it firsthand.

Jack’s one-line response to Hurley’s entire story about the numbers: “You were in a psych ward?” :rotfl:

Man, Jack makes his promise that they’d all be there to see the sun rise in the morning and Locke goes right off to the hatch. This undermines Jack’s position in front of everyone. Not only that, but Jack also undermines his own position by following after Locke and Kate, breaking his promise, saying he changed his mind. :no:

“Live Together, Die Alone,” is a reference to the speech Jack gave back in White Rabbit and is also the episode title of Season 2’s finale.

Sarah’s old fiancée was a real piece of work… :mad:

Locke lowering Kate down the shaft smacks of Locke urging Boone to climb the cliff and go into the tottering plane of death. Fortunately for Kate and for Locke, this situation ends much better.

Kate: “Wait…what do I say if I need to stop?”
Locke: “Stop.” :rotfl:
LOL! Everyone make sure you know your safe word! What does she think this is…BDSM?

Desmond really must’ve pulled Kate down hard after he turned on that shaft’s spotlight to skin Locke’s hands like that. Considering how many exercises he did down there, I’m not too surprised he’s strong.

Desmond had a very good introductory scene in Jack’s flashback. The only bad thing about it is that the scene’s placement in the episode made the answer to the who’s in the hatch question very obvious.

The key around Jack’s neck eerily going erect was our first sign of electromagnetism.

The set of the computer room is just so cool with that dome and all those really old pieces of machinery. Even though I was glad the story had moved on during Season 3, I found myself missing the computer room of the Swan.

How was Sarah really healed? Did she just get lucky and Jack did everything just right in the surgery? Or did she receive a visit from Jacob and get the magic touch? Alternatively, maybe when Jacob touched Jack he transferred some of his mojo to the good doctor. Again, we’ll probably never know, but I believe the Island had to have something to do with Sarah’s miraculous healing. :scratchch

Overall, this was a good episode, but it wasn’t my favorite. Generally, in my opinion, LOST season premieres (excluding the series’ premiere) are merely average episodes, whereas finales are always fantastic. The best part of this episode, by far, was the opening scene. :Cheers:

[ozanna]

While Jack and Locke are bristling at each other like a couple of angry male chickens ! Kate realizes that Locke wants to get into the hatch and Jack thinks he's crazy. Well that's OK - Locke thinks Jack's crazy for wanting to march everyone into the hatch to hide them from the Others. Word of warning Jack, never pile a lot of people into an enclosed space where they're trapped. Why didn't they just go around to the front door if they wanted to go in. Ooops sorry, I forgot - they haven't found it yet !

So Jack gives up on the "mouse-trap mission". "Oh, c'mon guys, we're not doing that any more." Locke asks him why he doesn't want to go down there any more. So they go marching off to the beach, and Jack takes the opportunity to rub Hurley's nose in his insanity, after Hurley has teased Jack about Locke and Kate being off somewhere together. Hurley mentions that that Jack is like Mr. Haha, (Sawyer once called Jack Dr. Giggles !) What a bunch of funsters these guys are. :)

I loved Hurley and his opinion of Jack's bedside manner - "Yours sucks dude". Jack seems to think that's not terribly important - he seems to think that his natural talent and brilliance will cover him.

I just noticed Locke telling Jack to calm down. Towards the end of S1 it was Kate's turn. If this is going to continue I am going to get peeved ! Surely he can control himself, or does he need a nanny and a pacifier. Every one else, even Claire, for the most part, cope. Jack gets weepy and sulky if he doesn't get his own way, and has a tantrum.

[ZIA]

Yes, a nanny and a pacifier. He just needs to lighten up and get some perspective or something. I think Jack has a lot of inner pressure to be perfect or for perfection period, and he's a little paranoid...nothing too major though, and that's what makes him so psychotic. Doesn't he have a drug stash?

[AChristianShephard]

Ive mentioned this before but im really excited about re-watching season 2 as Ive not done so before since it originally aired.
And from memory it's amazing and i'd usually rate it as my 2nd fave season, hope it stands up.

First I have to point out the obvious genius of the intro, the way it has you thinking your watching a flashback and doesn't tip you off until the explosion and BANG, your gears start working and then the growing realisation the your in the hatch is one of the most memorable bits of television I have ever watched and im not convinced that it isnt the single best scene of LOST. Ever!

Wow, where it pans up the hatch to show Jack & Locke peering down.
WOW!

How can you follow that up?
You can't.

It pretty much takes the whole episode to recover, though the sight of so much Jack certainly helps bring you back down to earth. Actually that's a little unfair, he pretty good in this one, though stunningly condescending.

I'd rip him a new <snip> if I was on the island with him. (lie)

The rest of the episode is genius too, the way were slowly introduced to the different parts of the hatch from Jacks entrance, its actually quite a slow thoughtful scene and takes incredible skill to pull off.

Also skilled was the portrayal of Jacks bond with his future wife, so subtle.

I'm still shocked at how good this show is / was.

These nuances have left the show now but I totally understand the need for the show to change pace.

10/10 and a very strong one at t hat.

[ZIA]

YES! I didn't forget, but then it hit me...I absolutely loved S2 and the ensuing heaviness that we will never recover from in LOST. People love the first season, (I didn't want to watch it again) but me? No way, S2 was gripping and always edge of your seat drama at it's best. SThree was even better, imo.

I did actually forget about, "Make Your Own Kind of Music" for a second, what a fantastic Mamas & Pappas song!, ok, I'll stay on track here, lol. The entire intro. brought it all back; wondering who the hell that was and where, and having no clue until the very last line was uttered, "You". One of the greatest episode endings ever, I can go with ACS and state furthermore that the opening scene was also one of the greatest moments in tv history, imo.

You forgot one thing though, ACS. The painting!! OMG. It's brilliant. What a mystery! We must have spent an entire year on the meaning of the beautiful painting, I still want it. Lol.
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/zia29112/LOST%20Stuff/Thee_Hatch_painting.jpg

Anyway, the episode; I'll never forget this episode for a million reasons, but Desmond was the obvious standout for me along with the discovery of what was inside of the Hatch. We met Desmond, he was amazing, and let's face it, HIC is a freaking brilliant actor. Genius. He owned that role the second he auditioned for it, I'm sure. So convincing, well, ok, they all are...but I'm digressing...again. All of the scenes with Desmond were just magical and mysterious. Who was this man?

"See ya in anotha life, yeah?" Instant classic! and one of my very favorite lines uttered from all of LOST. Ever.

Other standout scenes besides the long shot down the hatch, which I agree with ACS on, were when Hurley finally tried to tell someone (Jack)about the numbers, only to have him not able to get past the part when he mentions briefly that he was in a psych. ward at one time. *Sigh* No wonder he doesn't bother again until so much later. He probably had to convince himself to finally say something personal, feeling safe with Jack, and then to be brushed off, nothing he said was even heard, with the exception of; he was in a psych. ward. I get that, not because I've been in a psych. ward, (LOL) but I've had the same kind of thing happen many times. It's like, "Wait. I trusted you?? What the hell was I thinking?" That made me sad.

I think Jack was played very well in this episode until that point. I can forgive him for his lack of discretion as a young Doctor, but not the lack of compassion as a man, and supposed "leader". That was kind of it for me, but I do NOT hate him, Ozzy, lol.

[Dew]

The infamous hatch. Oh how much I didn't miss the hatch. Poor Hurley gets no respect. This will prove to be bad karma for all those who dis him. We saw the light shoot up in the sky from the hatch but I Locke was in there right?

[ozanna]

but I do NOT hate him, Ozzy, lol.
Yes, Zia, I actually did hate him at that time, well at least dislike him ! I hated his disdain for everyone, particularly Hurley. At this stage I probably won't ever like him. But there were a couple of times when I actually liked him - maybe when he saved Sawyer from the shaft of doom. Actually I quite often liked him with Sawyer - they balanced each other out well - two sides of the same coin.

Hi, Dew, welcome back. Odd how so many people disliked or were scared of the hatch. Rose, Hurley, Sawyer was glad to get out, Walt,

We saw the light shoot up in the sky from the hatch but I Locke was in there right?
Of course, Dew ! Oops, what have I done now ! Locke is a walking disaster area.

[AChristianShephard]

Oh no you didn't just compare Jack to Sawyer young lady :protest:

[ozanna]

Oh no you didn't just compare Jack to Sawyer young lady :protest:

OMG NO ! But believe it or not, I think that out of anyone on the island, Sawyer is the only one that can make Jack even a little bit human ! He can bring him down to size. And that is not an easy task :D
Sawyer: You don't get to die alone.

[Dew]

Sawyer: You don't get to die alone.

Sawyer can die with ozanna. I would prefer the old coot graybeard. :faintthud

Let's make a deal. Sawyer and Frank sing us this song by Cutting Crew.

Oh I, I just died in your arms tonight
It must have been something you said
I just died in your arms tonight

I keep looking for something I can't get
Broken hearts lie all around me
And I don't see an easy way to get out of this
Her diary it sits on the bedside table
The curtains are closed, the cats in the cradle
Who would've thought that a boy like me could come to this

Oh I, I just died in your arms tonight
It must've been something you said
I just died in your arms tonight
Oh I, I just died in your arms tonight
It must've been some kind of kiss
I should've walked away, I should've walked away

Is there any just cause for feeling like this?
On the surface I'm a name on a list
I try to be discreet, but then blow it again
I've lost and found, it's my final mistake
She's loving by proxy, no give and all take
'cos I've been thrilled to fantasy one too many times

Oh I, I just died in your arms tonight
It must've been something you said
I just died in your arms tonight
Oh I, I just died in your arms tonight
It must been some kind of kiss
I should`ve walked away, I should've walked away

It was a long hot night
She made it easy, she made it feel right
But now it's over the moment has gone
I followed my hands not my head, I knew I was wrong

Oh i, i just died in your arms tonight
it must have been something you said,
i just died in your arms tonight
Oh i, i just died in your arms tonight
it must have been some kind of kiss
i should have walked away, i should have walked away

[ozanna]

You moved me to tears, Dew ! I would rather he died with me than Jack :)
:cloud9::heartpump:kiss:

I personally think that we should all sneak off quietly to a real desert island and not even think about dying ! And sing and dance and do whatever we like ! I'm sure we could think up some great exercises for your knee :D

Great song btw, I can just picture the old coot graybeard and the getting older coot graybeard singing to us :makeout:

Take it easy :Cheers:

[AChristianShephard]

You forgot one thing though, ACS. The painting!! OMG. It's brilliant. What a mystery! We must have spent an entire year on the meaning of the beautiful painting, I still want it. Lol.
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/zia29112/LOST%20Stuff/Thee_Hatch_painting.jpg


Hi Zee, I forgot to ask, is there anywhere that hosts a bigger version of this picture? Its beautiful and I would like to study it x

[ZIA]

Sawyer and Frank sing us this song by Cutting Crew.

Oh I, I just died in your arms tonight
It must have been something you said
I just died in your arms tonight

I keep looking for something I can't get
Broken hearts lie all around me
And I don't see an easy way to get out of this
Her diary it sits on the bedside table
The curtains are closed, the cats in the cradle
Who would've thought that a boy like me could come to this

Oh I, I just died in your arms tonight
It must've been something you said
I just died in your arms tonight
Oh I, I just died in your arms tonight
It must've been some kind of kiss
I should've walked away, I should've walked away

Is there any just cause for feeling like this?
On the surface I'm a name on a list
I try to be discreet, but then blow it again
I've lost and found, it's my final mistake
She's loving by proxy, no give and all take
'cos I've been thrilled to fantasy one too many times

Oh I, I just died in your arms tonight
It must've been something you said
I just died in your arms tonight
Oh I, I just died in your arms tonight
It must been some kind of kiss
I should`ve walked away, I should've walked away

It was a long hot night
She made it easy, she made it feel right
But now it's over the moment has gone
I followed my hands not my head, I knew I was wrong

Oh i, i just died in your arms tonight
it must have been something you said,
i just died in your arms tonight
Oh i, i just died in your arms tonight
it must have been some kind of kiss
i should have walked away, i should have walked away



Ok, I am totally having deja vu, and it's still morning! ;)

Hi Zee, I forgot to ask, is there anywhere that hosts a bigger version of this picture? Its beautiful and I would like to study it x

I'll try to find one, or I think I can enlarge this one. I'm sure Brian has a huge version somewhere. :)

[AChristianShephard]

Is Brian still alive? Has he ran of with some floozy or something?
Where on earth is he?

[abcdxyz]

Now that time travel or alternate timelines are an overt part of Lost, I am seeing all sorts of indications that characters have been in these situations before. S1 had several references to "this wasn't supposed to happen" and now here's Desmond saying, "but what if you did" heal Sarah to Jack.

[Brian]

Is Brian still alive? Has he ran of with some floozy or something?
Where on earth is he?

Quite alive actually. :)

But I don't have a larger version of the hatch mural. ;)

[AChristianShephard]

He's here!

Quick, grab some rope!