Sun's Coursework

[StickMang]

I recall that Sun was learning languages when studying, but based on what we see of her on the island, she is knowledgeable in herbal growing and healing technique. Was it ever stated or implied whether she'd also studied alternative medicines?

Empirical evidence certainly exists that she has more than base knowledge, as she was not only growing and identifying herbs, and providing treatment on the island, but she also assisted in various diagnoses and treatments for Boone. She followed other, creative paths to work with what the island gives them to provide materials.

She would be a wonderful complement to Jack's traditional medicine techniques...and perhaps could be more...

-Mang

[anarane saralonde]

Agreed Mang...and I can't wait to see more of her back story. I was very impressed with her in last night's episode. It was very clever of her using a sea urchin as a needle in the midst of such a traumatic emergency. This clearly shows she can maintain a degree of being level headed in dire emergencies and life or death situations. She never let fear and panic overtake her sense of urgency and self-control.

I don't recall any previous information regarding her studies in alternate medicines or anything but then again, she's had only one flashback episode so far. Wouldn't it be terrific if she does have some type of knowledge or familiarity in herbal/alternate medicine? I would definitely think so.

[Van Gogh 2001]

She just gets more impressive everytime you see her....
smart, smart, smart .... I cannot wait to see more of her
episodes. She must have a background in medicine/herbs
... She is amazing!

[azteclady]

From almost the first episode we see that indeed Sun has some knowledge as a herbalist - remember in Walkabout when she shows Walt the plant to clean his teeth?

Her evolution, though, from then to last night is great, truly great. She's back to being the self-asured woman Jin fell in love with (remember the first flashbacks in House of the Rising Sun). I loved the progression in her interaction with Jack, from slightly tentative to one of equals near the end.

[anarane saralonde]

From almost the first episode we see that indeed Sun has some knowledge as a herbalist - remember in Walkabout when she shows Walt the plant to clean his teeth?

That's right Az - I totally forgot about that. Indeed it does appear our Sun has some knowledge of herbal uses and benefits.

I loved the progression in her interaction with Jack, from slightly tentative to one of equals near the end.

I noticed that too and the look on her face when she walked away in the end. She's just not Jin's wife - she's woman hear her roar! (well, maybe not just yet but she's getting there).

[azteclady]

Actually, she did roar! When Jin got there with the alcohol, Sun didn't let him shun/ignore her - she started translating both ways and basically demaning that Jin stopped being an idiot. Later, she basically comanded Jack to stop the transfusion. C'mon, what more forceful that yanking the needle off your arm?

[anarane saralonde]

I swear each time I read a post from you Az, I'm forcibly reminded of how I need to start using Strattera!

Sun is definitely is emerging as a strong female character. Who would have thought such a quiet and unpretentious woman could be so strong underneath?

[StickMang]

Indeed Az, Sun not only demanded accountability from Jin toward the end of episode, but her strength during the medical procedures was significant. She thrice offered to take over some portion of it, and was able to find him materials and offer spot advice in such a hectic environ. It was not just her actions or words, but her gaze at Jack before the attempted amputation strongly emoted knowledge and power, confirming her equality with him.

One of my original points is that Jack's and Sun's transformations had been somewhat divergent, but now seem intertwined at last by Boone's injuries. They will serve each other's islandic soul transformations, and my contention is that their soul searching might lead to some interesting tensions amongst the Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Sun, Jin hexagon.

-Mang

[azteclady]

anarane... *chuckle* I'm almost afraid to ask! What's Strattera?

Sun showed what she's made up early in the Pilot when she unbuttoned her top after Jin yelled at her. You could see the defiance in her eyes, and her strength.

Mang, I like the idea of an hexagon, and also of the different abilities and personalities that are contained therein. We have two different, and some would say opposite, approaches to medicine, for example. There will be instances in which their strengths complement each other and instances where their personalities or pasts will block them.

[anarane saralonde]

We have two different, and some would say opposite, approaches to medicine, for example. There will be instances in which their strengths complement each other and instances where their personalities or pasts will block them.

This could prove to be useful too if anything bad were to happen to Jack and he met an untimely end.

Oh and Strattera is the medication used for ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder). :b

[StickMang]

There will be instances in which their strengths complement each other and instances where their personalities or pasts will block them.

Indeed Az, it will be quite interesting to see how they all react toward each other. There are potential transformations, amalgamations, synergies and new or stronger relationships, or perhaps jealousy, polarization, antagonism and battle. The possibilities are endless!

And of course, the opposite approaches are not limited to these characters and this situation. A whopper is coming with leadership, survivors v. escapers, etc.

And I had my geometry wrong, it should be a pentagon for the 5 of them. There's nothing like a dramatic love pentagon!

-Mang

[Hodgepodge]

You know something I just thought? Sun, is apparently from a wealthy family. It's strange that she's so earthly. She's planting a garden. She's got nursing skills. She's a herbalist. Just curious, wonder what are the circumstances behind her knowledge?

[Hersh]

We know that Sun's father is probably a bad influence on her life but we never met Sun's mother (right?). It's probably from her mother's side whom I assume is more 'down to earth' than her dad who seem to have other people hold a gun for him.

[anarane saralonde]

Good point Hersh. I didn't see her mother or mother figure in any of that episode in Sun's backstory. We all know someone could still emerge in future backstories but for now, I'm wondering if there is an aunt, grandmother or female relative that could have had some influence in Sun's life. From what little we've seen so far, I think I can safely say she didn't learn that gentle nature from her father unless she was just born with "it" already. Not all are born with that quality.

[azteclady]

I wish we knew more about the kind of Korean household Sun's supposed to have come from. I mean, just how traditional was it? Could it be that the male/female spheres of action are sharply defined and that all women are supposed to possess (and if not naturally, then acquire) the skills to nurture and tend?

[anarane saralonde]

Could it be that the male/female spheres of action are sharply defined and that all women are supposed to possess (and if not naturally, then acquire) the skills to nurture and tend?

You know, I started to write my thoughts on that in my previous post and then deleted it. Now here it is:
It is traditionally believed women are the nurturers and care providers and that men are generally the protectors (enforcers) and decision makers. I grew up with that ideal but now as I get older and am exposed to a lot more than when I was say, 20, I see that doesn't always apply in today's society. I witness women who exhibit violence and psychological abuse on others whether they were a product of a similar environment or just intentionally possess these qualities.
It is my belief that Sun, even if the gentle quiet nature of hers is inherent, had to have some additional influence to nurture it during her formative years. IF there was no mother in her life, there was most likely someone who provided a mother-role of some kind thus providing her with the opposite nature of her father. It could have even been provided by a long time housekeeper or teacher/tutor. I just find it difficult that she could maintain such a sound sense of gentleness and tenderness while raised under the domineering hand of her father.

[Hodgepodge]

Hersh and Anarane saralonde, those are great points. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Sun's mother left her father because of the business he was in/going into. And of course, he wouldn't allow her to raise HIS daughter. We already know about his methods when it comes to dealing with government officials. So he could've gained sole custody.

And, the idea of a mentor/housekeeper, makes perfect sense. But, as I'm sure you know, the Asian culture believes in taking care of its elderly. I wouldn't be surprised to find out Sun was raised by a paternal or maternal grandmother.

[Hersh]

(holy crap, I typed out a lot of stuff. Read only if you're interested in a description of Korean culture related to marriage and if you got time :D )

Could it be that the male/female spheres of action are sharply defined and that all women are supposed to possess (and if not naturally, then acquire) the skills to nurture and tend?

azteclady, this is a good question, imo.

It seems to me, analyzing the relationship between Sun and Jin, that they have stereotypical Korean marriage life. Believe it or not, parts of Korean culture prior to the new millenium emphasized that the husband is the head of the household and that the wife needs to treat their husbands with utmost respect. You guys don't realize this but when Sun and Jin were on speaking terms in the beginning of this season, Sun always spoke to Jin in the respectful way - as in she spoke to him as if he was someone to be respected and yes I remember mentioning this in my translation of episode 20 which I find to be important:
[b]Sun</strong><!--EZCODE BOLD END-->: You, with Charlie, go back to Claire.
(Here, Sun does not use the word 'You' she uses a word that is often used by Korean couples to refer to each other when talking with each other. The word 'You' in Korean needs to be used carefully as it is disrespectful to say 'You...' to someone older, strangers... just anyone who is not a close friend. Just trying to point out that Sun still respects her husband.)

On the other hand, when Jin speaks to Sun, he doesn't use the 'respectful' form. He talks to Sun as if we were talking to a friend (not saying he talked to her without respect).

Sorry, I didn't meant to go on a spiel about the different forms of Korean as a spoken language but I'm leading up to the fact that because of the fact that husbands are highly respected, mothers always try to pass on to their daughters the art (for the lack of a better word) of being a wife. Why? Because it provides their daughters with a better chance of getting married.

I guess I sort of have to explain another stereotypical issue which is basically getting your parents permission for marriage. Of course, there is some of that in America, but it is (even now) an important factor in Korean marriages. Simply stating it bluntly here, but an educated wife is not what parents used to look for (educated is different than being intelligent - you can be intelligent without being educated). When looking for a suitable daughter in law, parents focused on questions similar to "Can this women take care of my son for the rest of their lives?". Again, with that comes the emphasis that mothers of daughters attempted to teach their daughters what they have learned as a wife (cook, homemaking, taking care of children).

Please note that this was the stereotype of pre-2000. I know Korean culture has changed ALOT of in the late 90s, especially with Western culture's influence but I am sure there are still families in Korea who practice this type of 'tradition'.

Of course, looking back at what I just typed out... it only attempts to explain one part of azteclady's question (male/femail spheres) but I still don't have any guesses as to where Sun got knowledge related to herbal medicine, botany, and English... for that matter.

[anarane saralonde]

Hersh - you're right about the traditional/stereotypical roles Asian men and women play in the past and some, still into the present. Ancient roles and tradition are hard to break, so it's believable that these roles still exist today.

Hodge - you brought up an excellent point about the Asian elderly. Being Asian and adopted by an American family, my adoption hinged on the roles my biological grandparents played back in Japan in the 1960's. The elderly are still regarded with the utmost respect and authority, even today in Japan.

Going with the notion that Sun must've had some outside nurturing or influence concerning her disposition, I really hope the writers flesh out her backstory while giving us insights to how she obtained the knowledge she's shown in some of the episodes. Hopefully it will all tie-in with each other.

[StickMang]

Perhaps it's as simple as rebellion.

Perhaps it's the very nature of her household life under her father, and his dealings that she desired to rebel and become his antithesis, polarizing her toward a more hospitable and caring manner (and perhaps profession).

When Jin became a cog in her father's machine, it could simply be that she detested Jin just as much as her father, and she started to rebel against Jin as well. (I suppose along the lines of the cultural discussion in this thread, she could also be rebelling against her traditional culture).

The full realization of this one transformation was on the island, when she could be completely away from her father's influence, and was confident enough in her independent self to let go of Jin, despite her 1 last attempt at the airport/early on island to nurture their relationship to the "pre-Daddy" days.

In the end, Sun learned how to let go.

Jack hasn't learned this yet, though with Sun's help (Boone), he may have begun this lesson.

Maybe he'll be extremely appreciative of her alternate medical perspectives...of her help...and perhaps of her...

-Mang

[anarane saralonde]

Good point Mang.


hmmmm......do you know something we don't? ;)

[azteclady]

Just a not-so-brief disclaimer here:

I am slightly leery of speculating too far on the matter of Sun's family life prior to marrying, because what little knowledge of Asian traditions I may have comes mainly from my reading of fiction.

Some authors will either have first hand knowledge themselves or do exhaustive research, while some of them may simply elaborate on what we Westerners 'know' about it. And even when the author does his/her homework, they may extrapolate or slant in order to serve the story.

Therefore, I'm basing what follows more on what both anarane and Hersh wrote (since they seem to have first hand knowledge), than on my previous knowledge.

Also, this is likely to be slightly rambling and longish.

Remembering the very first flashback in House of the Rising Sun, I noticed that Sun's dress and overall manner at the party was pretty sophisticated for someone so young. We have, of course, no way to determine just how long Sun and Jin have been married or how old either of them is - at least, I don't believe we do. If I remember correctly (running to check spooky's LOST Transcripts (http://www.lost-tv.com/transcripts/index.html)) - yes, I do remember correctly ;) - Sun was set on escaping to America from the beginning. It's likely that she may have been taking English lessons even before getting married, and since Jin didn't discover this until ... In Translation, I imagine that she would be doing that behind her father's back.

If this is true, it shows us that Sun has never been truly subdued, that she has never quite fit the traditional stereotype as explained by both anarane and Hersh. On the other hand, like Mang says, Sun seems to have an inborn curiosity for herbs and plants, and their uses as remedies, as well as an innate interest in nursing/medicine. Could be extrapolated that in a different cultural environment, Sun would have become a doctor herself.

In other words, what we see in the island is not so much a transformation of Sun's personality as an unveiling of her true self.

Pretty much what I'm hoping will happen with the rest of the survivors, a casting off of preconceived expectations (by each of them and others) of who they are and how they fit in the greater scheme of things.

[StickMang]

Well spoken, Az!

Perhaps my usage of the term ‘transformation’ was too constrictive. Sun finally obtained the confidence in her own independence to let go of her past (either as rebellion or cultural), in order to chart her new future. Now when I'd stated this was a transformation, it is one, but it's not necessarily as a series of changes. More aptly, as you state, the transformation is the moment in time when the confluence of events and stimuli causes her true self to materialize. Word choice aside, we seem to be stating the same thing about her change.

anarane,

I only wish! I have no inside knowledge, but I certainly have a curiosity for the potential professional synergies and romantic capability for Sun and Jack. Of course, that’d be a wonderful device to imbue a tangled skein of tense interactions creating an endless matrix of dramatic possibilities!

Here comes The Sun, and she's alright...

-Mang

[azteclady]

I am :bump: ing this thread since it deals with previous analysis of Sun's character - it's more relevant after Sun's deviousness in trying to keep Jin on the island by making him sick.