View Full Version : LOST Hiatus Rewatch #3 (09/09/09 - 09/15/09) - S2:E23/24 (Finale) : Live Together, Die Alone
This is the discussion thread for the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch - Season 2 Episode 23 (S2 Finale) , "Live Together, Die Alone"
Written by : Carlton Cuse & Damon Lindelof
The original (or as close to original as exists) thread for this episode can be found here (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20046).
General questions about the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch can be posted in the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37370).
Episode Description:
Michael, Jack, Hurley, Kate, and Sawyer are captured as they journey to the Others' camp; Sayid, Jin, and Sun use Desmond's boat to meets Jack's crew there, Locke and Desmond prevent Eko from pushing the button. Off the Island, Penelope learns of the discharge.
I'm looking forward to the Season 2 finale. We almost breezed through the entire hiatus! The Rewatch has been such a fun private party. :D
Zia The Rewatch has been such a fun private party
Ain't that the truth ! Its really speeded up the dreaded hiatus ! I'm not thinking too much about whats going to happen next year, but I'm sure if the worst happens (I'm too scared to even say it !) we will be able to find something to brighten up the days !
I agree!
It really kept me busy, sometimes to a fault, but what the Hell. :D
Locke 'n' Load
11-14-07, 05:51 PM
I'm looking forward to the Season 2 finale. We almost breezed through the entire hiatus! The Rewatch has been such a fun private party. :D
Ain't that the truth ! Its really speeded up the dreaded hiatus ! I'm not thinking too much about whats going to happen next year, but I'm sure if the worst happens (I'm too scared to even say it !) we will be able to find something to brighten up the days !
You both are so right…..It has been a blast so far and I expect it is going to get better! :Cheers:
I pre-ordered my season 3 DVD yesterday:D. Can’t wait!
L'n'L I think S3 is already in the stores here, but I haven't investigated yet. No, I'm not crazy ! I want to finish the S2 hiatus first, and my kids are buying S3 for me for Christmas. Its quite expensive here, but everything is. Thats the trouble with living at the back end of the world !
Actually I love it ! Did anyone know that they made a movie quite a few years ago about the end of the world starring Gregory Peck and Ava Gardner, and they made it here in Melbourne, because they thought it was the most suitable place ! Can't remember what it was called but it was a long time.
Locke 'n' Load
11-14-07, 10:27 PM
L'n'L I think S3 is already in the stores here, but I haven't investigated yet. No, I'm not crazy ! I want to finish the S2 hiatus first, and my kids are buying S3 for me for Christmas. Its quite expensive here, but everything is. Thats the trouble with living at the back end of the world !
I admire your patience, ozanna. I was going to add S3 to my Christmas wish-list, but I couldn't wait. Anyway, there are other things I want that my family can get for me. :D
Actually I love it ! Did anyone know that they made a movie quite a few years ago about the end of the world starring Gregory Peck and Ava Gardner, and they made it here in Melbourne, because they thought it was the most suitable place ! Can't remember what it was called but it was a long time.
I didn't know that, but I've been wanting to ask you if Australians are Nick Cave fans or if he's a bit obscure there like he is here? I'm a HUGE fan of his work.
Zia Nick Cave is more alternative than popular, our family love him. He made a track with Kylie Minogue called "Wild Things Grow" or something which was fantastic. Certainly not the pairing you would think of but it worked really well.
He made a movie in 2005 called "The Proposition". It was an Australian western, beautifully filmed and cinematographed (is that a word !) and as well as Nick Cave starred Guy Pearce, Ray Winstone, John Hurt and David Wenham, among others, all critically acclaimed actors rather than popular. some of our Aussies have great talent, but don't get the credit they deserve.
So in answer to your question, yes, he is relatively popular here to people of discerning taste ! He doesn't do a huge lot, I think he prefers to do quality rather than quantity- and its worth it.
Zia Nick Cave is more alternative than popular, our family love him. He made a track with Kylie Minogue called "Wild Things Grow" or something which was fantastic. Certainly not the pairing you would think of but it worked really well.
He made a movie in 2005 called "The Proposition". It was an Australian western, beautifully filmed and cinematographed (is that a word !) and as well as Nick Cave starred Guy Pearce, Ray Winstone, John Hurt and David Wenham, among others, all critically acclaimed actors rather than popular. some of our Aussies have great talent, but don't get the credit they deserve.
So in answer to your question, yes, he is relatively popular here to people of discerning taste ! He doesn't do a huge lot, I think he prefers to do quality rather than quantity- and its worth it.
I own The Proposition. Truly inspired cinematography! What a great, gritty film. I'm going to see The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0443680/) (2007) this weekend. It's supposed to be brilliant. I'm fortunate enough to have it playing here. It's just playing in a few cities here. He did the music score for this one too.
I did think it was a bit of an odd pairing Nick with Kylie, but it did work well.
It makes me happy that the good people of Australia embrace the genius amongst them. I know exactly 6 people who LOVE him too. (Foxxie included) and I worked in the music industry for 14 years!! It's mind-boggling to me. I have everything he's ever done AND I got SUPER lucky and saw him play with The Badseeds in San Francisco once.
I'm threadjacking my own thread? Excellent! LOL
Zia you are a devoted fan ! For some reason I feel really proud when one of our Aussies hits the big time (and I'm originally from the UK !).
"Jesse James" is on my wish list too. I'm sure Josh was mentioned for it at one time, but obviously didn't get the part - oh the immagination has gone into overdrive .......... ! Anyhow, enjoy it ! I didn't realize he had done the musical score too - brilliant !
Wow, really? I could see Josh Holloway embrace a gritty Western.
OK, I was like "there are already 11 posts for LTDA, I'd better hurry and watch it!" So I stayed up til midnight to finish it. Turns out I was not missing a LOST discussion after all! But, since I did watch, I'll just say...wow. I had forgotten a lot of the stuff in this since SO much happened! Michael looked deranged throughout, but, I can forgive him after seeing the scenes where they drag Walt away and threaten that he will never see him again. The words "for someone that wants his son so badly, you don't seem to know much about him" were repeated by Miss Klugh, I believe Walt's mom's lawyer said the same in S1. I am surprised the Losties forgave him, though, I wouldn't have blamed them for tearing him apart in the jungle when they learned the truth. Sawyer was so cute when he found out Kate and Jack really were just caught in a net - he is so relieved.
What else? I enjoyed Des's flashback, I had forgotten a lot of that stuff. Not sure I get what the failsafe key did. Blow up the hatch? Why they weren't all killed is beyond me then. And I didn't really get Inman's drawing on the blast doors - how could he see what he was writing or where he left off? And I still don't get the need for fake beards and fake hatches.
Interesting how Kate just opened fire on the Others, only giving Sawyer a second to react and not tellling the rest of the party. Dumb. It's not like the Others were about to fire on them, they were just trailing them. If everyone had been ready maybe they could have gotten both of them.
OK, I was like "there are already 11 posts for LTDA, I'd better hurry and watch it!" So I stayed up til midnight to finish it. Turns out I was not missing a LOST discussion after all!
Cat, I'm sorry about that, we are not on 'the list'. ;)
Catnap my apologies too, its easy to get sidetracked ! I always did talk too much ! Sorry. I haven't watched it all yet (I started but fell asleep would you believe !) With Kate and her shooting from the hip, maybe there is a reason for her not to have a gun. She's too impetuous. She's put her friends in danger a few times too many IMHO. Plus they were'nt being threatened, so why antagonize them any more than they need to. Oh but of course it was okay because it was Sawyer who killed the guy, purely on a reflex because Kate opened fire, so he will be the one targetted not Kate. Ooops I'm showing my prejudice again ! Well if she didn't behave like such a moron I woldn't have to, would I ?
Talking about morons, Jack, you did it again didn't you. He's another one who should be practicing putting his brain into gear ! He had hints from Libby, plus he is supposed to be an intelligent man, and he still hasn't really twigged that, as Sayid said, Michael has been compromised. Oh I wish they'd listen to Sayid sometimes.
I agree about the comments on Michael not knowing much about his son, but to be fair Michael didn't really get much of a chance to get to know him. Susan didn't exactly give him much opportunity, whisking him off to various parts of the world. I've always been a bit torn about Michael - as a parent you would do anything to protect your kids, sorry friends, but children come first. But still .... these are desparate times.
I'd better go and watch the rest, and try and stay awake. Can't believe I did that ! Anything else, but not "Lost" !
There is so much to cover, I'm just going to...try.
First of all, Desmond is one of the most interesting people on the island. We all know he's one of my personal favorites. (watch him die now!) Desmond's basic issue is that he is a coward (or he believes those who call him that) and he needed to overcome that and let it go. Dammit. I'm forgetting something important. Oh well.
Desmond figured the Swan out, that it was real and that he did in fact crash Flight 815 and did actually save everyone in the end by turning the fail-safe key. So, yes, I do think Locke saved Desmond's life when he was pounding on the hatch, so that Desmond could save Locke's life now. I also wonder if Locke's destiny was not to push the button, but to save Desmond?
It's too bad Locke is alwys so stubborn! My favorite Locke line in this epidode? To Eko: "I was wrong." You think, Locke?
Anyway, I just realized that Desmond was in a military prison? Strange. Inman said he was kicked out of the Army for not following orders. It's odd that he didn't take 'Our Mutual Friend' in the joint with him, instead he left it among his personal possessions. I get it; he didn't want to be tempted with suicide, but when Desmond offered his explanation as to why he left it out; the guard replied "it's a nice idea, as long as you know when you're going to die." I thought, hmm...Does Desmond already know? but when Penny found him at the stadium he did say that he would be back in a year, so I'm not completely sold on the idea that Desmond could already see the future prior to ending up on the island.
I loved when Desmond referenced the snowglobe, which we know about from Hurley's comic book.The entire storyline about Penny and Desmond is tragic, isn't it? Evil corporation rich meddling Father deciding their FATE.
My big Desmond question is: Why was he in the U.S. in the first place? Anyone?
Libby is still a complete mystery to me. I wonder what David had that made him sick and eventually die? She could have been a plant too. I guess we'll never know all of Libby's story. I never completely trusted her either, but I did kind of like her a little. ;)
My other favorite scene was at the Pala Ferry when Ben arrived on the boat as the leader of the Others and in complete command of the situation. It was such a shock from seeing him up to this point in a storage locker being tortured, wasn't it? Our Losties were absolutely horrified realizing that they are now screwed. (can I say that word?)
end rant/
Interesting how Kate just opened fire on the Others, only giving Sawyer a second to react and not tellling the rest of the party. Dumb. It's not like the Others were about to fire on them, they were just trailing them. If everyone had been ready maybe they could have gotten both of them.
...With Kate and her shooting from the hip, maybe there is a reason for her not to have a gun. She's too impetuous. She's put her friends in danger a few times too many IMHO. Plus they were'nt being threatened, so why antagonize them any more than they need to. Oh but of course it was okay because it was Sawyer who killed the guy, purely on a reflex because Kate opened fire, so he will be the one targetted not Kate. Ooops I'm showing my prejudice again ! Well if she didn't behave like such a moron I woldn't have to, would I ?
Okay Ladies, I'll give you that one on Kate. However, didn't you find it even a little gratifying that she did actually mentioned the costumes and the fake beards AND (crap! I have to go get a transcript now) she specifically said:
KATE: All that stuff we found in the medical station -- costumes, make-up, fake beards -- what if these people just want us to think they're hillbillies?
You have to give her credit for that, don't you? After two arduous seasons of no one asking any questions, she finally asked a great one! :D
Zia I'm the first to admit that I am really negative about Kate ! I just don't think she's good enough for Sawyer ! Okay, thats not what we're here for ! Yes it was good to see her getting in on the action in a more positive way, and the silly thing is she's really not that stupid. In fact I've got a new theory ! Because she is so besotted by Jack she's so unsure of herself in his shining light, that every time she tries to do something meaningful and important, she stuffs up. Like when you're trying to impress someone and you trip over your own feet and fall flat on your face!
Like the spoon licking scene, which I know we haven't seen yet, but that was so embarassing I cringed !
Sorry Zia I'll try and be more generous to her next time !
Sorry Zia I'll try and be more generous to her next time !
No. No. Carry on. I just had to interject that time. :D
L'n'L I think S3 is already in the stores here, but I haven't investigated yet. No, I'm not crazy ! I want to finish the S2 hiatus first, and my kids are buying S3 for me for Christmas. Its quite expensive here, but everything is. Thats the trouble with living at the back end of the world !
Actually I love it ! Did anyone know that they made a movie quite a few years ago about the end of the world starring Gregory Peck and Ava Gardner, and they made it here in Melbourne, because they thought it was the most suitable place ! Can't remember what it was called but it was a long time.
That movie was called "On The Beach". I read the book and I guess the reason they chose Melbourne was because in the plot, Australia is the only uncontaminated place in the world. Most of the book took place in Australia. I think it was by Herman Wouk.
The thing I most disliked about the things Kate has done is when she used Sawyer. She seemed to be trying to make Jack jealous. Generally, Kate doesn't bother me, but that was really low. The spoon licking was pretty terrible too.
One other thing, when she fired her gun when they were walking through the jungle, I swore she was alerting the Others. I know there is not much other evidence that she is a mole. That incident, though,
had "mole" written all over it.
Annie thank you for that, its brought it all back to me ! Actually now I remember, the author was Neville Shute who wrote a few books based in
Australia, "A Town Like Alice" for one. Now I can sleep peacefully. I remember it being the last country in the world, and everybody here saying "how appropriate !"
Thats an interesting point about Kate firing her gun to alert the others - don't know if its true, but interesting. It seemed like a really over impulsive thing to do, plus she could have got Sawyer shot ... OMG ! I can't decide whether she is really stupid or really .......... dumb !
I also wonder if Locke's destiny was not to push the button, but to save Desmond?
I loved when Desmond referenced the snowglobe, which we know about from Hurley's comic book.The entire storyline about Penny and Desmond is tragic, isn't it? Evil corporation rich meddling Father deciding their FATE.
My big Desmond question is: Why was he in the U.S. in the first place? Anyone?
I like the Locke idea. I don't remember a snowglobe comic, I never catch the little things, but even so Des's quote made an impression on me. And I want to know why he is in the US too. To train for the race? Or because Pen's father told him to disappear?
Black Manta
11-16-07, 01:16 PM
Maybe the race started in the US? But I doubt that seeing how Penny's dad is the sponsor.
But Libby's husband is named David. Hurley's imaginary friend is Dave. Libby and Hurley both were at the asylum together. Any connection?
Locke 'n' Load
11-16-07, 05:51 PM
Hi, I watched the episode once, but didn't take any notes, so I'll go through it again and post later. However, one thing that stood out to me is that Ben still has the scabs on his lower lip. Locke got his leg crushed and broken and is already walking without the splint and crutches but Ben's lip has not healed yet? Somthing is wrong here. With the special healing properties of the island his lip should show more healing than it does. His shoulder seemed to heal well after the arrow wound, though. The island allowed the tumor to grow on his spine, which makes me wonder about the his relationship with the island. Or maybe it was sloppy writing/filming. If so TPTB need to be more consistant with the healing properties of the island and apply them to everyone.
Jacob doesn't love Ben as he loves Locke. LOL ;)
Zia I'm having a hard enough time keeping a straight face with this, and then you set me off.
Sayid hatches (get it !) his boat plan to Jack, who is not particularly enthusiastic, but then he never is with anyone else's plans. Jack is still not sure that Michael has been compromised - how obvious do things have to be for Jack, unless he has worked it out for himself. Now he wants to tell Sawyer, Kate and Hurley about Michael. Why this one time does he decide to "share" with everyone else ! Sayid's overall plan might not be that good but not wanting to alert Michael that they might suspect him is a good idea. Jack hands out the guns - Hurley says he won't be using one, Sawyer is ready to get to the point, Kate suddenly decides to tell Jack about the makeup and "dress-ups" they found, a while ago, and Michael enthusiastically agrees with her, saying they are all hillbillys who live in huts and eat roots and leaves. I think thats what he said.
Sawyer says "Enough jibber-jabber". Denny Crane ....
Sayid asks Desmond for his boat, and a disillusioned Desmond (probably hungover as well) tells him to take it, at which point Sayid confesses that he doesn't know how to sail ! Desmond tells him to take someone with him who does.
Zia I'm having a hard enough time keeping a straight face with this, and then you set me off.
Sayid hatches (get it !) his boat plan to Jack,
LOL. It's true! Oh, and I get it! :D
You just made me remember what I always forget. The Portuguese guys in the yurt! It was such a shocker. I thought it was a commercial for a second when I first saw that scene. The question was asked if it was a false alarm this time, so should we assume the other alarm was the crash of Oceanic Flight 815?
Zia First of all I've always loved that word "yurt" - yurt, yurt, yurt.
Sorry I'll behave myself now. Yes, the Portugese guys and Penny, and the false alarm, it was a helluva cliffhanger wans't it ! There's so much more to discuss.
Locke has really been disenchanted hasn't he. Now Eko won't stop pushing the button so Locke and Desmond have locked him out.
Hurley and the hurley bird. "Did that bird just say my name ?" Sawyer "yes, right after it crapped gold". Sawyer's bravado is just to hide his fear. I just figured that because I remembered Libby's comment about never having seen anyone so scared. Glad Sawyer solved his "in the net" problem. Now Kate's got her knickers in a knot because Jack and Sawyer are talking about her ! You reckon ?
Okay I think I've had enough for today. Didn't realize how much there was to go through.
Locke 'n' Load
11-17-07, 04:59 AM
Jacob doesn't love Ben as he loves Locke. LOL ;)
Yeah, Zia, that's what I think, too! :D
Hurley and the hurley bird. "Did that bird just say my name ?" Sawyer "yes, right after it crapped gold".
Okay I think I've had enough for today. Didn't realize how much there was to go through.
What was the Hurley bird all about anyway? I wonder if TPTB were trying to show that there are primordial animals on the island or they're the remnants of the rest of the Dharma zoology experiments gone bad. Anyway, it seemed like fluff to me.
You're had enough rewatch for one night day? ;)
Zia I just popped back in to say I've got a feeling the Hurley bird may show up in S3, when Hurley is making his way back to the beach. I won't check up on it until we start that rewatch, but just in case. I'm sure its got something to do with something even if its only the state of Hurley's mind ! Or another chance for Sawyer to crack a joke !
Anyhow I think I'm really going now ! See you tomorrow.
Locke 'n' Load
11-17-07, 05:56 AM
ZiaAnyhow I think I'm really going now ! See you tomorrow.
Goodnight, Ozanna!
Goodnight Locke'n'Load
This place is like the "Hotel California" - you can never leave ! Do it Anna, just do it !
LMAO! We could be chatting right now. There's an empty chatroom with our name on it... ;)
Okay, wait a second. I just thought of another point (and yes, I'm double posting) Why was Inman painting the map on the blast door in complete darkness? Did he not know about the blacklight or does it just come on in the case of a food drop during a complete lockdown?
Yeah, I didn't get that painting scene at all. What was the point of them doing that? I guess you have to pass the hours there somehow.
Anyway, here's a thought I came up with. Des seemed to have an unlimited supply of liquor. Where did he get it? If he had it on the boat, well, that doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't know much about sailing but I would assume you would want room for more necessary supplies on a race around the world. And if you are sailing alone, and need to be in "the best shape of your life" to win, what are you going to do with all that alcohol? Drunken solo sailing doesn't seem to be an effective way to win.
HI Catnap!
Exactly. Why paint the map if they wouldn't be able to view it? Maybe they knew they were being monitored and were painting it on the DL. It did seem like an excercise in futility to me. Also, painting the map in blacklight paint does lead me to believe they knew there actually was a blacklight.
LOL, a solo race around the world and all that alcohol doesn't seem like the best combination to me either, but it is funny. :)
Good morning, ladies. Just popped in briefly to share with you something I remembered yesterday evening. The Hurley bird - I think it was in the episode discussions that somebody came up with the theory that it was Libby warning Hurley about Michael. Seemed reasonable.
The whole thing with the map was weird - why did "Heroes" suddenly come to mind ! Okay, ignore that.
Desmond's supply of alcohol does seem a bit steep. If he'd been drinking like that all the time he was on the boat he'd have been dead. He obviously has a bit of a problem with alcohol. There was an old folk song we used to sing as kids - "What you gonna do with the drunken sailor ?" Keep probing !
Locke 'n' Load
11-18-07, 04:13 AM
Some more random thoughts:
Desmond tried to justify Aaron’s father's abandonment by saying perhaps he left because he thought it would be best for Claire and the baby. Claire said he left because he did what he thought was best for him. Desmond was thinking of when he left Penny. He has a FB about leaving Penny for his own reason. He tells her he is running to get his honor back. He is running toward it and not running away from anything.
There is no justification for Michael. He did not have to kill Ana or Libby to get Walt back. He just needed to release Ben and bring back Kate, Jack, Sawyer, and Hurley. I could have forgiven him if that was all he did, but murder? No way! Especially since they did not threaten to kill Walt, they just said Michael wouldn’t see him again.
When Michael and Walt hugged in the boat, it was obvious a double was playing Walt when the back of his head was filmed. It is small like a ten-year-old’s head, but in the shots where you see Walt’s face during the hug, his head is as large or larger than Michael's. :D
When the boat was driving away, Walt looked at Kate, Jack, Sawyer, and Hurley with confusion. Hmm…I wonder what Michael will tell him about why they are leaving and his “friends” are being held captive.
In the hatch, Inman mixed detergent and water. That was what he was painting on Radzinsky’s map on the blast door. Don’t know what all that means, but he apparently has done it before. He tells Desmond that he has seen him do it a hundred times (touch the wires together so that the blast doors come down).
Desmond was able to hear Locke banging on the upper hatch door but he didn’t hear the trebuchet crash against it? Perhaps the music was on at that time. It was probably quiet in the hatch as Desmond considered killing himself and thus was able to hear Locke’s banging the night Boone died.
After the implosion, Bernard asked Charlie where Eko and Locke were. Charlie replies, “They’re not back yet?” Is he serious? He saw Eko go into the computer room where Locke was. He couldn’t possibly believe they got out before him. Unless this is a clue to a time anomaly.
And, why was no one looking for Locke, Desmond, and Eko?
Michael looked deranged throughout, but, I can forgive him after seeing the scenes where they drag Walt away and threaten that he will never see him again. The words "for someone that wants his son so badly, you don't seem to know much about him" were repeated by Miss Klugh, I believe Walt's mom's lawyer said the same in S1. I am surprised the Losties forgave him, though, I wouldn't have blamed them for tearing him apart in the jungle when they learned the truth.
You’re right about Michael’s deranged look, catnap. As noted above, I can’t forgive his murdering Libby and Ana. And, I’m not so sure the Losties forgave him either. They had to stick with him and pretend (in case they were being watched) that they believed Michael. Sayid and Jack had this “great plan” but unfortunately Michael took them somewhere else and not the beach camp (with the primitive huts) that he described to them.
I agree about the comments on Michael not knowing much about his son, but to be fair Michael didn't really get much of a chance to get to know him. Susan didn't exactly give him much opportunity, whisking him off to various parts of the world. I've always been a bit torn about Michael - as a parent you would do anything to protect your kids, sorry friends, but children come first. But still .... these are desperate times.
Yes, ozanna, children do come first and we should protect them with our lives. But Walt was not threatened and Michael got him back by taking the lives of others. I’m sorry, I don’t have an ounce (not even a fraction of an ounce) of sympathy for Michael. I feel sorry for Walt because he has to live with a murderer until he is 18 or until he runs away from the madman.
My other favorite scene was at the Pala Ferry when Ben arrived on the boat as the leader of the Others and in complete command of the situation. It was such a shock from seeing him up to this point in a storage locker being tortured, wasn't it? Our Losties were absolutely horrified realizing that they are now screwed. (can I say that word?)
Zia, I agree…I loved this scene. Ben is such a great character! I thought he might say something nasty to Jack, but he just nodded and said, “Hello again”. So calm, cool, and in complete control.
You just made me remember what I always forget. The Portuguese guys in the yurt! It was such a shocker. I thought it was a commercial for a second when I first saw that scene. The question was asked if it was a false alarm this time, so should we assume the other alarm was the crash of Oceanic Flight 815?
That’s what I got out of it, too, Zia. On 9/22/04 they got the same alarm in their yurt, but it turned out to be a “false alarm” because somehow Desmond was able to input the numbers before it exploded or whatever it would have done.
ETA: Wow, this is long. Sorry, Zia, I know you don't like all this homework. :D
Hi Locke'n'Load - good post - you livened up my Sunday afternoon ! Yes I have this to and fro feelings for Michael, and I really don't approve of what he did to his friends, especially seeing the look of betrayal on Sawyer's face after he realizes what he's done to them. Sawyer doesn't make friends easily and he bonded with Michael to a point because he empathized with him because of his son, even though he didn't have much time for Walt !
Then on top of that after he shoots the Other and wants to follow the one that got away, Jack says "don't bother" because Michaels already told them they're coming. So now he decides to tell them. Again, Sawyer has been lied to by "the closest thing he's got to a friend." No wonder he doesn't trust people. Its okay says Jack, he wouldn't have brought them if he didn't "have a plan."
"What plan ?" says Sawyer suspiciously.
So yes, you are right about Michael, and every time I see that look on Sawyer's face I totally agree with you, and the fact that he killed Ana and Libby. But .... I still think that Michael over reacted because of the fact that he didn't, or couldn't, make much of an effort with Walt in the past and has gone into overkill now at the expense of his friends. No I am not making excuses for him, just trying to figure out why he would do it. Anyway if I was him I'd be very careful when I meet up with Sawyer again!
I was just having a giggle about Sawyer's theory of the Others being aliens with heads made of "pathetic". Hurley corrects him - prosthetics !
Okay, heaps more to look at. I'm taking my time before we have to speed up for S3 ! Can't help loving Ben can you ?
There is no justification for Michael. He did not have to kill Ana or Libby to get Walt back. He just needed to release Ben and bring back Kate, Jack, Sawyer, and Hurley. I could have forgiven him if that was all he did, but murder? No way! Especially since they did not threaten to kill Walt, they just said Michael wouldn’t see him again.
Yeah, I've had what? two years to think about this and I don't buy it at all. Michael was back for a grand total of 2, maybe 3 days. It wasn't the only way. He didn't even try to figure out another resolution. I realize he was desperate, but no way he had to gun down AL and Libby because "it was the only way." I'll never change my mind.
Zia, I agree…I loved this scene. Ben is such a great character! I thought he might say something nasty to Jack, but he just nodded and said, “Hello again”. So calm, cool, and in complete control.
Ben is one of the most maniacal characters on tv ever. Genius!
Great post, LnL! Nah, I was just kidding about the reading part. I love it!
I was just having a giggle about Sawyer's theory of the Others being aliens with heads made of "pathetic". Hurley corrects him - prosthetics !
Okay, heaps more to look at. I'm taking my time before we have to speed up for S3 ! Can't help loving Ben can you ?
Ozanna- Hello! How are things down undah? :D
Funny you'd mention that scene; I thought of you when I saw it.
Yes, we have another week to dissect S2 finale and take a break, get it together, etc.
so are we waiting to the S3 release in US before we discuss those episodes? I'm all stressed b/c I don't have access to the disks til then. Nevermind, I just found the answer in the S3 poll/thread. I will watch on computer til I can get the DVDs.
btw what is a Yurt?
Hi catnap - I think a yurt is like a portable wigwam, but probably more sturdy as it is used in colder climates. I just love the name ......... !
It's funny.
I had no clue until one of my favorite people; Badger, corrected me when I called it a 'shelter' in the original thread.
LOL-Badger, :D where are you now? You nut. :awwhug:
G'day everyone ! Its a bit cooler today so hopefully my brain will be back into gear ! Sort of ! Okay so the button was all a con the whole time - I still don't altogether "get it". What a huge con - how long have all those people been sitting there pushing that button for nothing, other than so the hatch wouldn't blow up. But as Inman states, would Des have the courage not to push it. Now Locke is best friends with Desmond, and ditched Eko ! Charlie willingly goes to the secret dynamite stache with Eko even though he is not sure why. Maybe its just so that HE can have a friend! Poor old Charlie !
So Des was taught about the button by Inman even though he wasn't "him". Obviously Inman was so keen to get off the island he would have handed over to Santa Klaus if his sleigh had crashlanded there !
Interesting parallel between Des and Inman - Des was kicked out of the army for disobeying orders - Inman was kicked out because people obeyed his orders.
I wish I knew why Desmond was in the U.S. too. I know it was obviously "fate" that he met Libby in that particular coffee shop, but it does stretch the imagination a bit. Do not mistake coincidence for fate !
Anyway I'll have to go and rewatch a few more bits - I'm still confused.
I wish I knew why Desmond was in the U.S. too. I know it was obviously "fate" that he met Libby in that particular coffee shop, but it does stretch the imagination a bit. Do not mistake coincidence for fate !
Anyway I'll have to go and rewatch a few more bits - I'm still confused.
I don't know, Ozanna. We never found out why Libby was on the plane. I wouldn't be surprised if she was working for an evil corporation. It's a conspiracy! ;)
Hi Zia, I remember now why I got so frustrated with this episode. We were told that we were going to get a whole lot of answers, which we did, up to a point, only to be replaced by a whole lot more questions ! There must be a reason why Desmond and Libby just happened to meet at that coffee shop. The fact that no one seems to know what the answer is means that there probably isn't one. I think I'll stick with Sawyer and his pathetics and Hurley with his Hurley bird ! Evil corporation sounds good !
It's unfortunate TPTB didn't give us more background information about Libby. So many loose ends!
Zia - I will perservere and I will prevail ! ..... Maybe ......
I just discovered this Zia from Ausiello, and thought I'd better put in spoiler tags, just in case.
Apparently the producers have decided to answer some of Libby's recurring questions in Season 4, due to viewers desire to know !
Is it Coincidence or Fate? ;)
Probably more like bs !
Btw, that was my first spoiler. I am no longer a spoiler virgin !
Hi catnap - I think a yurt is like a portable wigwam, but probably more sturdy as it is used in colder climates. I just love the name ......... !
Yes, that is exactly what they are! A portable dwelling (or shelter) used by the nomadic peoples of the Asian steppes, for example Kazakhstan and Outer Mongolia, etc.
It's funny.
I had no clue until one of my favorite people; Badger, corrected me when I called it a 'shelter' in the original thread.
LOL-Badger, where are you now? You nut.
I did? :confused: All I recall was saying the Others decoy camp 'shelters' looked like Yurts. I know, it's confusing. ;)
"Favorite people" huh? :awwhug: :Hugglepounce: It would appear you're a favorite among many people yourself. :worshippy
As to where I am? :shifty: I left you a hint in the form of a geographic trivia quiz in the hiatus thread poll titled "Does everyone want S3 included", here:
http://losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1866102#post1866102.
However, I may not be here/there/wherever by the time you figure it out, although it wouldn't be like I planned it that way. :mischievo
Hopefully this will work as comms are lil flaky here <understatement>.
:whistling2: ~It's a long way to Tipperary...It's a long way to go....~ :musik29:
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4845/alongwaytotipperraryse1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Heh, it's not like I'm in Mongolia...in a Yurt...with WiFi. :lmao: I'm not that primitive. :scratchch
One more hint: I'm not on the surface of the Moon. :no:
Badger - thank you for probably making me stay awake all night !
Being an Aussie I thought it might be Australia. The outback looks very similar to your photo, although maybe not red enough. Your clue about being very old gave me a ........ clue ! Not sure about it being named after a country, though. Still, nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Somewhere in Africa, maybe? I haven't figured out the exact location yet. ;)
Yes Zia, "somewhere" in Africa. It's a small continent so you should be able to narrow it down quickly. ;) :detective
:whistling2: Somewhere over the rainbow...Skies are
blue...
I haven't figured out the exact location yet.
Heh, me neither! :boggled:
Another hint: Eko definitely didn't live here. :no-no:
Okay Badger, but the location is named after a country and that's what's throwing me off. :confused:
Don't tell me yet though. I'm not done guessing. :D
Instead of a "place", think in terms of a region that is named after the country it's in. However, this region is a type of place. Oh, and it's not a place you'll find many tourists - unless they're nuts. :doomed:
Yeah...that makes sense. :yeah:
Did I mention I needed a :bath: ?
:winner2: OZANNA! :winner:
:congrats:
You can sleep now. :sleepzzz:
WowBadger :nanabobo: I never get things right !!!!!
It was your clue about the region being named after the country, and that got me thinking along the lines of desert. I either have an enquiring mind, or I'm very nosey !:D
It certainly doesn't look much like a "resort". What got me thinking about Australia was when me and my husband were driving in the outback a couple of years ago and near Broken Hill (where all the gold and stuff is) was quite similar to that. :Cheers:
Great job, Ozanna! I like the 'Where's Badger?' game. :D
ozanna, let's just say I don't spend a lot of time in "resorts". :lol:
Whispers to Zia: ;)
Okay back to business - all these OTs and I'm involved in all of them !
What was the 4 toed statue all about ? I loved Sayid's quote -
I don't know what is more disquieting - the fact that the rest of the statue is missing or that it only has four toes.
Just completely OT again was it "Family Guy" or "American Dad" where the 4 toed statue turns up ?
Poor old Locke is getting more and more disillusioned, he has realized that when he was bashing on the hatch lid and the light went on, he wasn't "seeing the light" it was probably just Desmond getting up to go to the bathroom ! And because of all his hopes and dreams Boone lost his life.
When Sawyer and Jack etc. come across all the cannisters beside the pneumatic tube it kind of proved that everything was a hoax. Then the black smoke showed up, miles away, and again Michael was exposed for the lying cheat that he was. Then they all got shot with the tranquilizer darts. Way to go Michael. Hope Sawyer does a Cooper on you when you show up again !
Okay back to business - all these OTs and I'm involved in all of them !
What was the 4 toed statue all about ? I loved Sayid's quote -
Yes, you're right. I saw it too. I love 'Family Guy.' I hope TPTB doesn't let that storyline just die. I'm sure it's a remnant of an ancient civilization that once populated the island. Remember, Cooper was tied to some kind of Temple structure at the Others camp.
Zia - don't hold your breath waiting for TPTB to explain ANYTHING to us ! It would take a whole extra season to do that ! That column that Cooper was tied to reminded me of some sort of South American Temple, and I'm sure there was a temple mentioned at some time but I'm too lazy to go looking for it at the moment ! But I will.
One day when I'm really bored I'll go through the whole thing looking for all the little things that have never been explained - it'll probably send me insane we'll see !
Desmond decided to read "Great Expectations", which he said he would read when he knew he was going to die - and Penny's letter fell out, urging him to keep going and not give up. Is that coincidence or fate ?
Happy Thanksgiving everyone !
You too, Ozanna! :awwhug: Isn't it already tomorrow there? I'm baking pies and my house smells great. :D
Zia sorry to disillusion you, but we don't have Thanksgiving here !!! You're making me really envious with the pie baking ! Yes it's tomorrow afternoon here :confused: I've always loved the idea of Thanksgiving and all the yummy food ! We have to wait for Christmas, and by then its too hot to celebrate with roast turkey and Christmas pudding and all the other goodies - but we do anyway and then end up feeling quite sick ! :vomit:
Happy Day ! :Cheers::dinner::celebrate:drinky:
Wishing all (especially Zia and ozanna) a happy Thanksgiving. Wait, they don't celebrate Thanksgiving in Oz. (really, I knew that!) Oh well, happy Thanksgiving anyway. :Cheers:
Heh, would anyone like some left over Kudu :itmdrool:(it's a species of antelope) and some...not sure what these are but they're...well they WERE green, now they're kind of a greyish funky looking green.
Delicious! :poop:
:whistling2: yummy yummy yummy...I got bugs in my tummy.
:nothingtoadd:
Hi Badger Hope you enjoyed your Kudu and funky looking green things! Yum, yum, yum !!!! I think I might be thankful not to have that !!
Anyway thanks for the well wishes - I'm not sure if Australia was actually here - well, taken over by the white man! - when you guys first celebrated Thanksgiving ! Have a good day and don't eat too much !
I'm not sure if Australia was actually here - well, taken over by the white man! - when you guys first celebrated Thanksgiving ! Have a good day and don't eat too much !
Yeah, I still feel bad about that whole fiasco...and I wasn't even there. LOL ;)
Hi Zia - it could have been done so much better, couldn't it. I wasn't either - in fact my ancestors were the original perpetrators ! Now finally people are taking notice of the aboriginals - too little too late. Have you ever heard of a band called "Midnight Oil" ? Their lead singer, Peter Garrett, is now a politician and very devoted to the environment, aboriginal issues ec.
Great guy - he always reminded me of a praying mantis ! See ya !
I have heard Midnight Oil, although they were much more popular in Australia. I saw the new Jesse James movie-BTW. It was really intense and Nick Cave made an appearance too. :)
http://jessejamesmovie.warnerbros.com/
Oh thanks for that Zia:nanabobo:
That poster looks so cool. Was he wearing one of those long coats and a hat with the brim pulled over his eyes ! Sooooooo sexy !!!!!
Yes Midnight Oil was pretty popular here, people used to go see the band just
to see Garett moving - he's so tall and skinny and bald, he looked like a praying mantis ! I think they've disbanded now that he is devoting his time to politics. We are having a general erec.... oops .... election today and if the Labour party get in (please) Peter will be making his prescense felt environmentally - about time somebody did !
Oh thanks for that Zia:nanabobo:
We are having a general erec.... oops .... election today and if the Labour party get in (please) Peter will be making his prescense felt environmentally - about time somebody did !
LMAO! Australian erection day! :D
Oh thanks for that Zia:nanabobo:
We are having a general erec.... oops .... election today and if the Labour party get in (please) Peter will be making his prescense felt environmentally - about time somebody did !
LMAO! Australian erection election day! :D
Hardy-har Zia! Well we got the desired result - out with the (very) old and in with the new !
Getting back on topic for a change (what - me !) I was just thinking about Sawyer and his glasses, and how often I've read posts commenting on how Sawyer is not a very good shot. And then I remembered - his eyesight is not that good, so how on earth when he and Kate were walking through the jungle and she noticed the two others trailing them, did he manage to positiion his rifle and shoot the guy dead on the other side of the river (I think), all in the space of a couple of seconds. And he didn't have his glasses on. OTOH he is long sighted, I think, but even so his reflexes must be really good.
Maybe he's bionic ............. !
Sawyer was apparently only nearsighted as evidenced by the fact he had difficulty reading. His distance vision was likely still acceptable and perhaps even quite good. The shot you're referring to was while they were on their way to the decoy encampment. And yes, he did spot an 'Other' across the river and took the shot. The range was not great, about 100 yards. A relatively easy shot for an assault rifle, even an AK-47, which is not the most accurate. Although not impossible for a handgun, still near the limit of effective range depending on caliber, etc. Of course, it always comes down to the skill of the shooter, with eyesight and reaction time being only two of many variables.
As far as TV and movies in general, shooting skills are almost always over played with virtually impossible shots being seen all the time, not to mention things like seemingly unlimited ammo. For example, magazines and clips that hold far more rounds than their real world counterparts (they never run out), one shot kills at ranges far beyond the weapons effective range and shooters with theretofore undemonstrated ability or even a self-acknowledged lack of experience, yet who suddenly become expert marksmen in difficult situations requiring a high degree of training and experience.
Shooting at targets is one thing; shooting another human being is quite another, especially when they're shooting back.
Therefore, to claim Sawyer is a poor shot is more realistic than what is often seen on TV. However, the situations themselves may or may not be.
Delilah
11-25-07, 03:38 AM
Hi Zia - it could have been done so much better, couldn't it. I wasn't either - in fact my ancestors were the original perpetrators ! Now finally people are taking notice of the aboriginals - too little too late. Have you ever heard of a band called "Midnight Oil" ? Their lead singer, Peter Garrett, is now a politician and very devoted to the environment, aboriginal issues ec.
Great guy - he always reminded me of a praying mantis ! See ya !
Yes! I've heard of them, and their song 'Beds Are Burning'. I think that was the title. Very cool that Garrett is doing that now.
Badger thanks for your response, which actually brought up another point that I've pondered over the "Lost" years ! Sawyer has done quite a bit of shooting in his chequered career, with varying degrees of success ! It seems like when he does something on the spur of the moment - i.e. the polar bear, the "other" across the river, etc. he is totally successful. Its when he pauses to consider, maybe, that he stuffs up - the Marshall, the shrimp guy the first time, etc. Both Hibbs and the guy at the airport told him he was not a killer, and Sawyer stated this with conviction in "The Brig", which hasn't happened yet !
I think my point was that although Sawyer seems at times to be not such a good shot, as long as he doesn't think about it - sticks to instinct - he's fine. If he starts thinking he won't do it. Has Sawyer maybe been programmed at some time as a killer, but the programming wasn't entirely successful.
I've actually gone off on a completely different track here, but what the hell, I'm enjoying it !
With regard to your comment about shooting on TV or film, my theory is that as long as they look good making the shot (I'm thinking about Sawyer and the poor unfortunate polar bear here !) its going to work - I mean they're a joke more often or not, and the amount of ammo some of those guns hold is amazing ! OK I'll leave you in peace now !
Hi Delilah - yes, "Beds are Burning" is correct -good song ! Garrett is going to be a busy boy now that Labour have been voted into power, and he will be good for the environment !
Firing a weapon is not an instinctual act. We are not born with some innate ability to aim and fire a weapon, apparently without conscious thought. Firing a weapon at the enemy, or anything else for that matter where a degree of accuracy is necessary requires training and experience. However, there is more to it than that. There is a psychological aspect that comes into play as well. As I said earlier, it's one thing to shoot at targets and quite another to shoot at human beings. Again, to do so effectively requires training, but also motivation in the form of self-preservation. Therefore, you are correct in that part of it is instinct (self-preservation), but it also requires training in order to be effective.
That said, there are trained soldiers and police for example, and there are killers. When you look into someone’s eyes and see nothing but a soulless stare, with little crosses for pupils, that's a killer...and they're scary guys.
The question you seem to be pondering is Sawyer a killer, or is he driven by something else. Although he doesn't appear to be a killer, he has nonetheless killed with premeditation and malice of forethought.
In that sense, Sawyer's character is driven by what happened to him as a child. Thus, the shrimp guy for example was, in Sawyer's mind, a self-justified act of revenge and an entirely different mindset than instinctual self-preservation.
In contrast, whenever Sawyer has encountered the ‘Others’ and a firefight ensued, self-preservation took over. That is, he was simply defending himself and/or other ‘Losties’.
As to why he can seemingly have good aim in one scene and not so good in another is, again, the fact this is a TV series as well as the fact the situations are different. For instance, running through the jungle while firing from the hip so to speak is not aimed fire but rather suppressive fire designed to buy time. Whereas confronting the ‘Others’ while on the raft when they already had him at gunpoint was both TV drama, as well as an act of desperation that was all but futile.
Hi again Badger - yes its a shame that we can tend to lose ourselves in TV in the mistaken belief that its real ! I love my fantasy land, but you have to keep it in perspective ! Sawyer has so many complexities going on - I have a theory that his whole life has for some reason been a complete con, that for some reason he has been manipulated all along the way, starting with the murder/suicide of his parents just to get him warmed up and ready for action. I believe that the shooting of Duckett was a complete charade and Sawyer was manipulated every inch of the way, again. Meanwhile Duckett is probably still alive and kicking and selling shrimps. I read something about this a long time ago before I started posting. Because it occurred shortly before Sawyer left on the ill-fated Flight 815 we never heard about Duckett's death. Actually there's something not quite right there, too. Having said that he'll probably be killed off next season and all my imagining will be for nothing ! Again, its been fun ! How it fits in with this thread I have no idea ! Once I start I go off in so many directions at once, I end up getting "lost" ! Bye ......
We can't dismiss the fact we witnessed Sawyer shoot Duckett, as up to this point there is nothing to prove he didn't. Furthermore, Sawyer sought him out and deliberately shot him, whether he was manipulated or not. Thus, in the eyes of the law, he's murderer. However, that does not mean he's a soulless 'killer' as I described above.
Did Sawyer become the "monster" he was seeking is the question. Now that the real Sawyer is dead, what I find potentially interesting is what may become of Sawyer now that he has killed the man he became.
After all...
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster..." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I think this is going to have to wait until morning, Badger ! I have had a lot of thoughts on this already and its looking pretty grim. Excellent quote from Nietzsche, and so appropriate in this particular case. I almost think its too late .... as I said above, he didn't seem to turn a hair when he shot Tom. I'll go to bed and sleep on it and see if I can come up with something mind blowing by tomorrow !
More Ozanna insights? I'll check back for that. Badger, it's so great to kind of have you back! :D
Hi Zia and Badger I'm back with more of the crazed babblings of Ozanna ! First of all I re-found the post I mentioned above (after sifting through about 3 million bookmarks !). It came to my attention when I was browsing through "Lost Theories" and I would bring it here but I don't know how, I haven't got that far yet ! It was presented by clayseasonI under the title of "+ The Perfect Con" dated 07.02.2006, and basically was an extremely intelligent and logical account of how Sawyer had been manipulated all the way into killing Duckett - told where to get the gun so that he was sold one loaded with blanks, the fact that Duckett was in on the act, and had a blood capsule type thingy under his shirt. Hibbs had told Sawyer that he was not a killer, thereby goading him into doing something he had already assumed that Sawyer was not capable of. Thus we see Sawyer hesitating and then leaving the scene. When he returned Duckett did not appear to be particularly puzzled that he had shot through the first time etc etc.
My own thoughts as to why Hibbs wanted Sawyer to kill was so that he would have something over him and could thus keep him running cons for him, plus payback for the mysterious Tampa job, which we may or may not find out about in the future. (please !) So what better way to manipulate him than to tell him the guy was Cooper. I also wouldn't be surprised if the lovely Anthony Cooper wasn't involved it in himself !
What puzzled me was that after Sawyer had shot Duckett, in the chest at pretty well point blank range, he walked over to him to read the letter, and Duckett, who should have been in total shock from a massive trauma to the chest, which would have involved heart and lungs, was able to question Sawyer about why did he shoot him, he would have paid back Hibbs eventually. "It'll come back around." Sawyer has been totally duped, and is devastated - whether because he has been conned into killing the wrong man, or because he still has Cooper to contend with. The relief he must have felt when he finally pulled that trigger must have been massive, and now not only has he killed the wrong man, he still has to continue with this charade of his. I know Badger people are always able to deliver emotional monologues while teetering on the brink of death on the silver screen, but give us a break !
So thats my latest theory - my next one concerns Sawyer, Cooper and Locke and his whacky paste ! I don't know if I like my chances with that one but, heck, it keeps me off the streets !
...So thats my latest theory - my next one concerns Sawyer, Cooper and Locke and his whacky paste ! I don't know if I like my chances with that one but, heck, it keeps me off the streets !
I would love to hear your wacky paste theory!
http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=781088&postcount=1
Ozanna, here's the link you were looking for. ;)
How about the first one Zia ?!!!!! I sat up all night working that one out - NOT !! Here we go, but I'll put it in spoiler tags, because I can ....!
It concerns Sawyer and Cooper and Locke and his whacky paste - did Sawyer really kill Cooper ? Or was it a hallucination ala Boone and the "death" of Shannon, courtesy of Locke's whacky paste. :D
Btw I don't drink or do drugs ! So I really don't have an excuse !
Zia Thank you, thank you ! I really have to learn how to do that !
You must have overlapped me while I was typing up my previous masterpiece. Its quite a long post, but well worth the read.
I am slowly getting to the point where I am going to prove that Sawyer is not a killer, is a pure as the driven snow, and is as boring as batsh.. !
Zia Thank you, thank you ! I really have to learn how to do that !
I'll show you how, (or someone else will beat me to it) no problem. :)
I am slowly getting to the point where I am going to prove that Sawyer is not a killer, is a pure as the driven snow, and is as boring as batsh.. !
You have about three weeks. Should I get some pillows and a hammock from the Oasis? :D
Its going to be all systems go after that. I just realized that our TV station here is showing repeats of "Lost" well after midnight, so I haven't been staying up for it - only just realized it was on - I have trouble staying awake after 10.00 pm ! If I'd known I would have taped it. They show DH in the afternoon, and Greys in the evening - I reckon thats descrimination.
ozanna, when you say "Sawyer is not a "killer", it depends on what you mean by that. That is, how you define what a "killer" is. However, he has most certainly killed in the true sense of the word.
Recall that Duckett is not the only one Sawyer killed. He strangled the real Sawyer and shot Zeke, AKA Mr. Friendly in acts of revenge, neither of whom were in self-defense*, which would have made it justifiable.
Therefore, Sawyer is at the least a murderer, both legally and most certainly technically, speaking. However, whether or not he is a 'killer'** as I described before, is open for debate.
* An act taken to prevent harm to oneself or others when there is an imminently clear and present danger. Thus, shooting the 'Other' along the riverbank for example could be construed as such since they were in a state of armed conflict at the time. Hence the 'Others' could have been considered armed combatants and subject to the use of deadly force.
**Defined as someone who willfully kills without remorse or self-consciouness (soulless), such as in acts of vengeance, especially repeated acts. This differs from psychotic killers which are anti-social serial killers for example and who kill for their own personal enjoyment and/or sexual gratification, etc. There can be a fine line between the two, however.
Hey Badger, where are you? :confused:
<<I'm right here. :D Connection dropped while I was out looking :hunter: for sneaky snakes. :snake:
Let's just say I'm not 'on the same island you are', and sometimes I wonder whether I'm even on the same planet. :confused:
PM sent.
Hi Badger - snakes !!!! Doesn't sound like my type of place ! I had an uncle who lived in Kenya for years and my cousins, when they visited us, used to tell me horrific stories about snakes, because they knew I was totally petrified of them !! One of my cousins wrote and illustrated a book about wild life, and the illustrations were so good many people mistook them for photographs.
OK back on topic. When I said "Sawyer ain't no killer" I think Hibbs meant he didn't have the stones to do it, in other words, pushing him to see if he would. Well he proved that he could (maybe ! I'm not through with that theory yet !) But once he'd done it it got easier and easier as time went along, and thats the tragedy of Sawyer's life. I believe he has a conscience but as you said yesterday, in different words, "live by the sword, die by the sword". Sawyer's first attempt to kill Duckett ended in failure, and I suspect a few drinks may have helped him to complete the deed.
His strangling of Cooper was done in pure animalistic rage (and didn't Josh do a fine job there - he should have got the Emmy) and by the time he got to shooting Zeke he couldn't have cared less ! Thus the beginning of that fine line you described above, and that is what worries me. Sawyer has always hated himself and now he has more reason than ever. As my Grandma used to say "There's going to be tears before bedtime ........"
btw what do you do with the "sneaky snakes" when you find them ?
Sawyer's first attempt to kill Duckett ended in failure, and I suspect a few drinks may have helped him to complete the deed.
Yes, liquid courage. Or put another way: liquid stupidity (when weapons are involved).
by the time he got to shooting Zeke he couldn't have cared less !
And that can be a problem, the fact he doesn't seem to care any more. It's a slippery slope and very hard to climb back up. Thus, I'm curious as to what they will do with the character since his (apparently) nearly life long goal has been accomplished. Will he continue to be the man he hated, or will he become himself...whoever that is, was....or could have been.
Look what happened to Ana Lucia. And then wonder what will happen to Michael as well. I'll be nice and not say what I really think.;)
Badger there's quite a lot of conjecture as to what will become of Sawyer now he has killed his nemesis. I don't think its going to give him any peace. I have heard a few ideas that Kate will help him redeem himself - I really can't see that happening - Kate is too preoccupied with herself, and Jack, and anyway Sawyer has enough problems of his own without taking her on as well ! Not to mention the baby, if there is one, which as Sawyer said "Lets hope you're not." Ain't that the truth !
As far as Michael goes, you don't have to be nice here Badger ! Most of us have had our moments. There have been times when I have been really unkind to poor Kate, just because I think Jennifer Garner would have been better as Kate ! And as for Jack, well ...... ! We're just about to eat and I don't want to get all stirred up !
How unkind Zia !!!!!
What about WAAAAAAAAAAALT ...........?
I don't think I can think of one person who wouldn't want to use Michael as target practice if he were to ever turn up on that island again ! What about if Anal and Libby were to rise up out of their graves as zombies and chase him all over the island with their bones rattling and bits of them dropping off and worms crawl ................. OK, enough !
I don't know if I'd go that far, but yeah...:D
Sorry .... I think I'm getting bored. Must find a new project ......
Are you wandering around in theories again?
No ..... can't think of any - I'm getting stressed - go and wash dishes ....:D
ozanna, dear...REMAIN CALM...take a :chillpill (take a bottle of 'em. No, disregard that!)
The situation is under control. :pullhair:
Don't stress out over a show that is not on, has not been on for months and potentially may not be on for over a year. ;)
:eek:...DO NOT PANIC...:eek:
Do I need to come visit Oz, say around June of next year? Yes, I think that might be in order. I need to have a a talk with your husband. :gathering: ;)
Perhaps some quality time in the bush with nothing but a Nalgene bottle and a knife would be of significant psychological benefit. :idea: Besides, hunting sneaky snakes :snake: can be theraputic. :thwak:
Yup, intervention may be called for. (Zia, we need to hook her up with Dr. Phil). :hypnotize
Doing Dishes is OK. However, in the meantime, (before I arrive) I strongly suggest you not handle anything that is sharp, motor driven or that can start a fire. :no-no:
:eek:...DO NOT PANIC...:eek:
Yup, intervention may be called for. (Zia, we need to hook her up with Dr. Phil). :hypnotize
Doing Dishes is OK. However, in the meantime, (before I arrive) I strongly suggest you not handle anything that is sharp, motor driven or that can start a fire. :no-no:
:rotfl: Badger!!! Great advice. I think she was having a panic attack.
Badger and Zia - Thank you for your support and kindness :thankyou
I have regained my equilibrium, gotten over my dummy spit, took a deep breath and counted to 10 etc. etc. :Cheers:
I think Dr. Phil (and Oprah) are a part of my problem ! When I worked full time I wasn't exposed to them :confused: Last night by mistake I watched a re-run of "Grays Anatomy" and I think that shocked me back into the real world :crazy1: Actually Jack should really transfer himself to Seattle Grace, he could sob his heart out and join in all the misery there ! :D So I had my panic attack and now I'm all better. At least its only a couple of weeks until S3 comes out and I can get my teeth into Saw ..... ummmm S3 !
Not too sure about those sneaky snakes Badger- sounds more like heart attack material to me :scared: But I really appreciate your kind
thoughts. :):)
"I have regained my equilibrium" [really means the voices in her head quit screaming because they made her dizzy :dizzy: ]
"gotten over my dummy spit" [really means she found her dummy, aka a pacifier, and put it back in :baby: ]
"took a deep breath" [really means she took her medication :chillpill ]
"and counted to 10" [really means she was so worked up she couldn't count past :10: ]
"etc. etc." [really means she couldn't compose herself long enough to think of anything else to say :tapedshut ]
;) j/k
Oh, and you're welcome. Any time. :D :)
:rotfl: You crazy nuts!! This thread is beyond jacked!! LMAO :D
I love it.
:awwhug:
You're not kidding Zia :offtopic2:
So they should hurry up and give us something to do !!!:nanabobo::Hippy:
Thanks for your support Badger - good to see you have the utmost confidence in me :cry: :thankyous
OK off to look for another project. I will prevail. Hope we don't get into trouble for all the threadjacking, but its been a very, very long hiatus :sigh::pissed:
So they should hurry up and give us something to do !!!
Remember that on Dec 12. ;)
OK off to look for another project. I will prevail. Hope we don't get into trouble for all the threadjacking, but its been a very, very long hiatus :sigh::pissed:
You mean our hiatus from the hiatus rewatch during the longest hiatus in recent tv history? :D
I concur.
We won't get in trouble. We'll get on a topic sooner or later.;)
Remember that on Dec 12.
Don't worry Brian, I will, and I promise you won't hear the hint of a complaint out of me ! :nanabobo:
I don't even want to think of what might happen next year. As much as I support the writers (specially when you see what people like Aaron Spelling live in !) the thought of living without "Lost" for a year is unappealing ...
:sadwalk:
Course we will Zia :Cheers: We ain't no dummies ! :D
I don't even want to think of what might happen next year. As much as I support the writers (specially when you see what people like Aaron Spelling live in !) the thought of living without "Lost" for a year is unappealing ...
There may be some good news (http://losttv-forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1875850&postcount=73) on that front. :)
As for threadjacking, it's the finale thread and we have a couple of weeks so....
:sawyer: Ooops, don't know where HE came from .....
:celebrate I read the Good News Brian but I'm not getting too carried away for the moment .......... :rolleyez:
Thanks for your support Badger - good to see you have the utmost confidence in me
Confidence is high, but hopefully you're not. :rotfl:
ps: I didn't know it was possible to hijack ones own thread. However, we seem to have found a way. :mischievo
Confidence is high, but hopefully you're not.
Hardy har har, Badger ! Well we have to get a laugh when we can, don't we ? I don't get high (any more).
As far as hijacking our own thread - I seem to do that all the time ! I have a very active mind ! (Thats my story and I'm sticking to it !)
You have an active mind? Then perhaps I can interest you in an ID ring...
http://www.activemindssolutions.com/
Hey, like you said, it's your story and you can tell it any way you like. :eyebrow:
ps: I didn't know it was possible to hijack ones own thread. However, we seem to have found a way. :mischievo
Bah! I say no one will notice and I'm fine with it. Anyway, we do get to keep up with you, Badger. The good old days!
At dat time dey was not duh "ole dayz". Ever day wast uh new day! So, I bee thinkin dem wast da bad 'o dayz because'n wee was not as informaded 'n educamicated as wee is now. Wee hast grow'd 'n maturated since den and wee's intellectualably mo davelopped too.
..burp...
:drinky:
Don't lick the toads so much, Badger! ;)
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I think it's quantity over say, quality that's not so good. :)
There is nothing wrong with a large quantity of quality posts, imo. For instance, #125 above. Nothing wrong with licking a few colorful frogs either. ;)
As long as you don't squish 'em. :D
:partytime:
Well Badger, you don't have beer, so... :Hippy:when in Rome.
I just came up with this little theory, which I've been working on for, oh... all of the last 3 or 4 minutes. It is my theory on "The Bad Twin", and is not to be taken seriously. It will be in cereal (sorry - serial) form, so I can stop when necessary - probably at the end of this.
Sawyer and Jack are actually biological twins (not necessarily identical.) Their mother was so distraught when she discovered she was pregnant that she refused to divulge the name of the father on the grounds that she would be viewed with horror and disgust for the rest of her life. She claimed he was the devil. :eek:
When they were finally born the OB-GYN who brought them into the world, whose name was Christian Shepherd, was both horrified and filled with joy.
:baby::vomit::littleangel:
The first born emerged covered with a thick coat of black hair, sobbing uncontrollably. The second born was the most beautiful child he had ever seen, tawny golden hair like a lion's mane, and beautiful eyes the colour of the deep blue sky reflected in the ocean. However, when he saw his brother he opened his mouth and bellowed with the utmost rage and horror "Arrrrrgh ! Goddamit - son of a bitch !" :disgust1::slap:
Their mother, as soon as she was able, left the hospital, with a regretful look at the pretty one, and a shudder of disgust at the hairy one.
:sadwalk::weeping:
Christian Shepherd felt deep sympathy for the hairy one, so he set up adoption procedings, detrmined to give this unfortunate child the chance of a successful life.
He was not too concerned about the attractive, beautiful child, assuming his looks would guarantee him wealth and fortune - as long as he could manage to keep his mouth under control. :censored: :D
He was quite sure that there would be no problem with the adoption of this glorious child. Unfortunately he was later proved very wrong. Sometimes beauty can attract the beast.
To this day no trace has ever been found of the parents of these boys, but they're out there ...........:confused:
To be continued .....
OMG Ozanna! :rotfl: Is this related to the whole 'toad' thing?
Hey, you got the thread back on track...
OMG Ozanna! :rotfl: Is this related to the whole 'toad' thing?
Hey, you got the thread back on track...
Sorry, didn't mean to ! Should I continue ? Bet you can't pick which twin I prefer !:D:D:D
Sorry, double post - don't lick no toads no mo' either .....
Carry on Ozanna! We have 2 weeks to talk about whatever we want.
It's strange. The rewatch was a pain in my ass sometimes and it's been SIX months straight, but now...I could actually take a hiatus from L-TV! *cough* ;)
I could actually take a hiatus from L-TV! *cough*
ZIA - I think thats almost sacrilige !:oops:
I know what you mean - and look how quiet its got around here ! Are we the sane ones or the loonies ? :drinky: :toke:
I'm looking forward to Christmas - love all that schmaltzy stuff they have on TV, and last year my son's gf gave me my own DVD of "Its a Wonderful Life" so I can watch it in privacy and sob cheerfully to my hearts content !
:xmas_cry::sawyer::celebrate
I love the Christmas holiday. Lights, Christmas trees and fun things to do, and we have Winter for Christmas and it's just beautiful. It's Summer in Aust., isn't it?
It's Summer in Aust., isn't it?
Yes it is Zia - one year it was about 110 degrees which is not exactly perfect for roast dinner and Christmas pudding ! So I just remember England and the holly and the ivy and the mistletoe, and the big log fire and the carol singers and the egg nog, and the christmas tree with the pressies underneath (oh that right, we have that too !) As long as its loved ones all together thats the important thing. And lots of yummie things to eat !
I wonder if I'll be able to keep myself away from the 'puter for a whole day !
Summer indeed. No beer and it's summer. Not a lot of frogs either. See...generally speaking there needs to be water in order to have frogs. Oh, there's water...somewhere. You can lick the fog (not to be confused with licking frogs) off rocks near the coast, but we're not exactly near the coast.
Nope, drier than an oven brick alright.
Anyway, back to waiting for Godot....(and no, he is not a frog).
No thanks on the Summer for me. It just stopped being Summer two weeks ago here. (PHX) Unlike Badger; we do have beer.
Hi Badger - no beer huh ! Thats terrible ! Its pretty dry here too, although it did rain a bit the other day. Drier than a dead dingo's donger !
Plenty of beer !
Zia - just heard on the news that Peter Garrett is the new Minister of the Environment ! Not bad for a gawky singer from "Midnight Oil" huh !!
PHX, uh? I get to the PHX area quite often. Fountain Hills and Scottsdale mostly, although I'm very familar with the area as a whole.
Anyway, I won't pry.
ps: Dont hug any cacti on my behalf. They're prickly. And watch out for the Jumping Cholla..I've had nasty encounters with 'em.
Pss: Scary thought (or delightful depending on how you look at it) but now we have something in common. :eek: :squee:
psss: Should I keep rambling? :jabber:
I know...PHX area quiz time! :)
And yes ozanna, there is certainly plenty of beer in Oz. I get to Oz rather often as well (June..don't forget! :eye-poppi :squee:). And in a somewhat distantly related manner it is one of the reasons I joined this forum in the first place.
"a somewhat distantly related manner" Wow, could I have been any more nebulous (vague) than that? ;) Oh yeah!...but I digress.
PHX and Oz....And it be told thee, and thy hast heard of it, and so shall thee behold what thou hath wrought. And thy shalt come unto thou places, PHX and Oz. Thus take good heed therefore unto yourselves. :soapbox: <<since I don't have a mount handy.
Ok...so it was the frog talking. Yes, I found a talking frog! I have named him Fred. Fred the Frog. And right now Freddy is pretty froggy...or is that droggy? :oops: , groggy. :(
Zia - just heard on the news that Peter Garrett is the new Minister of the Environment ! Not bad for a gawky singer from "Midnight Oil" huh !!
That's great news!
nebulous (vague) than that? ;)
Excellent choice of words. :)
:thankyous, I'm learnin how to spell. :book:
The Swahili word for leopard is "chui", and is pronounced /tʃu.i/, with hiatus. :Booky:
Hey, it's as tropical...err topical as I could think of. :geek:
Locke 'n' Load
11-29-07, 10:29 PM
Ozanna, I love the twin theory. :D
:rotfl::rotfl:
There's more L'n'L - watch this space - as I said once before, I'm full of it !! I wish I could come up with a satisfactory ending, but at the moment I'm just winging it - pretty much like TPTB, I guess. As they say "the Devil makes work for idle hands !"
Ozanna, I love the twin theory. :D
:rotfl::rotfl:
Hi LnL!! We're still here.
Ozanna, there's more to your twin theory? :D I was laughing so hard.
The Bad Twin - Chapter 2.
As the boys grew with their respective famiies, their lives began to take shape.:innocent: The hairy, weepy :weeping: one was named Jack, after Jackass. It hadn't taken Christian long to realize that the child he had chosen to cherish was bright and industrious, but extremely boring, and very "worthy". :Booky: He was not popular at school and was prone to beat ups because the other kids liked to make him cry. He was however, keen to look out for the unfortunate, because he liked to "fix" things, and wanted above all to be a "hero". :worshippy
However, he came from a privileged family and wanted for nothing, except for the love of his parents, who just wanted him to excel so that they could gloat over him. Sadly, not long after he arrived at the Shepherd home, Christian began to drink heavily and later took to drugs in a big way.
:toke::drinky:
Meanwhile the golden child, who had been named James, after one of the Apostles and a Saint. :littleangel: spent his early years in a humble but happy home. Sadly when he was 8 years old, his loving mother met an unscrupulous con man named Sawyer who took advantage of her loving
nature and had sex with her and took all her money. Her husband was extremely P.O.d :pissed: so he shot her dead (as you would) and then shot himself, unaware that the beautiful golden child had witnessed the whole thing.
After this horrific incident the young James wrote a letter to Mr. Sawyer saying he was gonna get him, but he never sent it because he didn't know his address.:mad: So after 10 or 11 years James (who was growing more and more beautiful by the year) :heartpump:heartpump but hadn't had a particularly happy childhood, inexplicably decided to take on the identity of the man who had caused the death of his parents. :confused: A case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".
Meanwhile young Jack continued to flourish accademically. He was known to suck up to teachers :hmm: and as he grew older began to develop a tendency to stalk people, lurking in the shadows and staring creepily at attractive women ( and sometimes men.) :eek:
To be continued
Zia Ask and ye shall receive ! :rotfl::rotfl:
I'm starting to really enjoy it ! :Cheers:
Okay Zia - I'll keep going ! That'll keep me busy until we start work on S3. I actually don't remember that too well so I'm looking forward to seeing it again.
Ozanna, Don't you already have the discs? Australia?
Yes, I haven't seen the episodes since the season was going (I have most of them tivo'd). I want to, but I like to watch them all at once and haven't really had the luxury of all that spare time.
Yeah Zia I could go and buy it now, but I also thought that in some strange way I would be supporting the writer's strike by "boycotting" it, so to speak, until either the strike ends (please make it soon !) or until the DVD is officially released in the US. Does that sound weird, or hypocritical or anything ? They've also been showing S3 on TV here a couple of nights a week, but I not til after midnight which means I invariably fall asleep and get POd and/or forget to put the dvd in ! But, believe it or not I have actually caught up on some reading, and watched a few movies, just to show that I do have a life ! Cheers for now !
Locke 'n' Load
11-30-07, 04:49 PM
Ozanna, I'm digging the twin story. I love the reasoning behind Jack and James' names. Too hilarious :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
Keep it coming!
LnL
I've been boycotting 'made in China' imports (as much as possible) for seven years, so I'm okay with boycotting Season 3 too. (for a while, but I'm going to need those extra discs sooner rather than later. ;)
Boycotting Chinese made goods? Wow, what do you buy instead? Or do you just wear sandles and eat seeds? :Hippy:
ps: please do not boycott my importation. :(
On a related note...
"To imagine that the gratifying of any sense, or the indulging of any delicacy in meat, drink, or apparel, is of itself a vice can never enter into a head that is not disordered by the frenzies of enthusiasm.... These indulgences are only vices when they are pursued at the expense of some virtue, as liberality or charity; in like manner as they are follies when for them a man ruins his fortune and reduces himself to want and beggary. Where they entrench upon no virtue but leave ample subject whence to provide for friends, family, and every proper object of generosity or compassion, they are entirely innocent."
--David Hume, "Of Refinement in the Arts," Essays on Economics
So don't boycott so much that you reduce yourself to want and beggary. ;)
pss: disordered by the frenzies of enthusiasm :hmm:...that doesn't describe anyone on THIS forum. :rofl1:
ps: please do not boycott my importation. :(
Badger. :D Never! LOL
Hey wait! I have photographic evidence that shows in fact you DO wear sandles! To wit: the Dharma bus photo in your profile clearly shows you standing on the other side of same with sandles on. :D ;)
By the way, the duty tax on me is $$$. Excessive in fact. Perhaps you can do something about that?
ps: I've had all my shots.
:thankyous
Ok, so it was presumptuous of me to state the sandle wearing feet belonged to you. :doh: And furthermore, a mistake on my part to state you were, and I quote: "clearly visible", when in fact it was nothing other than a pair of feet...wearing sandles. ;)
Then again, since the Dharma bus is obviously yours as evidenced by the license plate, which the DMV confirms (that would be me ;) ), and the fact there are no other vehicles visible in the immediate vicinity, it is thus reasonable to assume the sandle wearing footsies likely belong to you.
Still however, there remains insufficient evidence to show they are in fact your feet. But alas, I have an explanation for that as well (and you could've guessed that by now). :naughty:
Since I gave you the sandles as a gift :prezzie: , along with said bus, I can testify to the fact they appear to be the same sandles. And, like O.J. Simpson's shoes, the sandles in question are rare and expensive, and highly unlikely to be worn by a random passerby keenly interested in a dilapidated VW bus. After all, if the sandles fit, you must aquit. :innocent:
Therefore, I can't be found guilty of making false statements. :innocent: To wit: claiming you are clearly visible in the photo. Because although the majority of you is not visible, the evidence thus far indicates a high probability it is in fact you. :detective
Nevermind I took the photo with your camera and you protested :protest: that you did not want your photograph taken while wearing the sandles as you feared someone would rob you of them. After all, they mug people their Air Jordan's. :scared:
<<< Feels :boxedin: and wonders :scratchch how on Earth he is going to dig his way out of this mess. :footinmou
The Bad Twin - Chapter 3
Thus the twins matured and flourished in their own ways:highfive:
Jack graduated from college and went to Medical School, where he soon became the highest achieving student in the universe, also the youngest ever to graduate with Honours. :nanabobo: But in spite of this he felt that he would never be able to live up to his father's standards, and subsequently proceded to become the biggest pain in the ass :sorry: as he strived ever harder to become the best.:winner:
James, in the meantime, despite his intelligence and beauty, never made it through High School, probably due to his tendency to wag school :naughty: in order to stay home in the trailer park and watch :tv:TV, thus increasing his knowlege of pop culture and nicknames to use on his "friends". College was not on his agenda. He had discovered a far more lucrative and enjoyable way of making his living. :squee:
Being a tall strong young man with a beautiful physique, and the looks of a young Greek God, he discovered at a fairly early age the joys of women. They adored him, and allowed him to do as he wished with their bodies, even, in some cases using them as a dessert dish. :kiss:
Jack eventually became a spinal surgeon, and of course he was the most talented young doctor in the universe. :D People on whom he had operated, lauded him and elevated him to Sainthood. He eventually married a lovely young lady named Sarah. :flowers: Sadly it didn't last - possibly due to his sobbing :cry: all through the ceremony. Plus his obsession with fixing everyone else may have got in the way of their relationship. :rolleyes::giveup:
So while Jack was rapidly making his way to stardom in the medical world, the beautiful James was rapidly working his way down into the underworld. His prowess with women afforded him considerable success as a confidence man. By oozing charm :love2: and showing the ladies a few tricks they hadn't seen between the sheets, he was able to extricate large amounts of money from them through their hapless husbands. :jester: Occasionally these little tricks backfired indicating that James was not completely without a conscience. :sadangel:
As the lives of these two young men continued to evolve, they were slowly heading on a collision course with Fate.
To be continued .....
:clap:
Saint vs. sinner. Good vs. evil. Black and white. Two sides of a coin. God vs. the Devil. Jack vs. Sawyer. Hrm, I think there's a pattern there.
And of course there's also Jack vs. Ben, Jack vs. John (Locke), Jack vs. Christian, Jack vs. the Island and last but not least Jack vs. ozanna. :yinyang:
Did I miss anything or anyone? ;)
Aha Badger, but who is the saint and who is the sinner, who is black and who is white, etc. The outcome might surprise you ! Stay tuned for the next thrilling installment ! :woot3:
Did I miss anything or anyone? How about Jack vs. Kate, Jack vs. Sayid, Jack vs. Hurley, basically Jack vs. anyone. Including me !
:manynanas:
p.s. I just always wanted to use that smilie !
Saint vs. sinner. Good vs. evil. Black and white. Two sides of a coin. God vs. the Devil. Jack vs. Sawyer. Hrm, I think there's a pattern there.
And of course there's also Jack vs. Ben, Jack vs. John (Locke), Jack vs. Christian, Jack vs. the Island and last but not least Jack vs. ozanna. :yinyang:
Did I miss anything or anyone? ;)
You forgot to mention the great sandals vs. flip-flops debate of 2007. :D
My favorite LOST paradox is coincidence vs. FATE, but I LOVE Ozanna's take of 'The Bad Twin'. :D
BTW-How are you two doing tonight?
BTW-How are you two doing tonight?
Pretty good Zia
I haven't quite decided on the coincidence vs. fate thingy yet - look, I don't even know how its gonna end up ! It'll have to be no more than a week or so 'cause it'll be time for Rewatch S3 - yaaay !!
Excellent Ozanna!
Do you have S3 now? I feel like watching the whole thing in a marathon first.
LOL I'm listening to Nick Cave right now. (The Good Son) ;)
Excellent Ozanna!
Do you have S3 now? I feel like watching the whole thing in a marathon first.
LOL I'm listening to Nick Cave right now. (The Good Son) ;)
Great choice Zia. We're listening to Madeleine Peyroux, very New Orleans/Blues. We have very diverse tastes in music ! "The Who" to the Four Tenors !!
Still waiting for S3 ! Its not that long ! Besides I've gotta finish my cereal !
Right? I'm a music junkie too. Trust me. ;)
Zia and Ozanna, I just wanted you to know all is well. Attached is a photo that should alleviate any fears you may have regarding my safety.
By the way, the snakes are not a problem.
Hope you're both having a nice day. :)
ps: the weather is nice here and the water is warm.
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/100/noworrieslr3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Looks like you have some fans in Africa, Badger. :)
omg for a moment I thoght I was looking into my neighbour's backyard. He has a pool with water that colour ! But hopefully none of the surrounding fauna !
What the HELL were you doing up there Badger ?!!!!!
:no-no: , that's a Photoshop picture. :jester: You don't think I'd be :crazy: enough to jump out of a perfectly good aircraft over a crocodile infested swamp in a third world country do you? :eek:
Not that it couldn't happen mind you. :pray1: Hypothetically speaking of course.
Oh well, ask a stupid question ......... !
:no-no: Not a stupid question. Although technically speaking I'm down here vs. "up there". I was "up there", however. After all, I had to be 'up there' in order to get 'here'.
Well after that, I'm all over the place ..........
Is Badger being cryptic again?
Apparently Zia and its Sunday evening and I'm tired ..... !
Night, night everyone, but I'll probably be back !
Night Ozanna? It's night there?
Me, cryptic? Surely you jest! :jester: I said I was (past tense) 'up there' as in "Look!, up in the sky...it's a bird....it's a plane...it's.."....but I'm not now. I'm 'here'. As in: 'wherever 'here' is, :hereiam:.' I really can't say where :shhh: because, well, I really don't know :confused:, but I'm not LOST! :DharmaIsland:
Night Ozanna? It's night there?
It was Zia, about 7 pm. I don't often know what time it is here, let alone anywere else !
Badger you are getting crypticer and crypticer, and I know thats not a word so don't waste yur breath !!!
Badger is so covert; he doesn't even know where he is. :D
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:Badger is so covert; he doesn't even know where he is.
Thanks Zia - I needed that.
Did you ever watch "M.A.S.H."? There was a quote I will never forget from the CIA guy, Colonel Flagg:-
I try and keep myself in a constant state of confusion !
I know so many people, myself included, who could own up to that one !
:woot3:
The Bad Twin - Chapter 4
So James and Jack continued to grow into their 20s and 30s. Jack by now was THE greatest spinal surgeon in the universe.:worshippy
His marriage had failed. :depressed: So he threw himself more and more into his work. :dizzy: His father, Christian, meanwhile, being so overcome at the enormity of his son's incredible fame, began to drink heavily and take drugs. It came to the stage where Jack was forced to inform on his father for causing the death of a patient whilst operating under the influence. So Christian was cut off. But he bore no grudge against Jack. Much! :disgust1:
He travelled to Australia where he drank himself to death, and Jack was then given the unpleasant task of having to go and collect his father's body.
The beautiful James, meanwhile, continued his sleazy slide down into the underbelly of life in a seemingly unwinnable race to see how many woman he could seduce in the space of one lifetime. :makeout::squee:
This fascination with women inevitably landed him in gaol, and also into fatherhood :baby: He accepted the fact that he would not be a good father and in a rare act of good will gave mother and daughter a lot of
money :Cheers:.
He eventually ended up in Australia where he had gone to kill the man who he was lead to believe was the man who had engineered the death of his adoptive father, and thus caused him to turn into the blight on humanity which most people considered him to be. :sadwalk: Naturally he stuffed this up too, and ended up in a bar drowning his sorrows with -:boggled: none other than Christian Shepherd, the man who had brought him into the world along with his twin brother and arch-nemesis, Jack, the sorrowful surgeon. :weeping::weeping: Later that night the unfortunate Christian died in a back alley due to alcohol poisoning :tears2:
Little did James know that a few days later he would be being deported back to America becase he was not wanted in Australia (WELL nobody told ME he was here !) :hereiam:
So Jack and Christian (who was thankfully in a coffin) and James, unknown to each other, boarded Flight 815 back to Los Angeles, on a flight to who knew where or what ........:confused::confused::confused:
Ozanna, Ode to 'The Bad Twin' is cracking me up. :rotfl:
Locke 'n' Load
12-04-07, 02:09 AM
ozanna,
Love it! :D
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
Thanks you guys ! In that case I will continue, but I'll have to finish before December 11th !! Oh yes and whats this Christmas thing thats rapidly advancing ?!! :xmas_confused::xmas_confused::xmas_confused::
Come on. What's wrong with a little Christmas cheer? ;)
Zia I LOVE Christmas !:xmas_razz:
When the kids were little I used to knock them over so that I could get to the tree first on Christmas morning ! :prezzie: :thankyous
:partytime:
Did you decorate you tree yet? I got as far as doing the lights. I kind of like it that way. I'm such a weirdo! LOL :)
Not yet. I usually leave it until a bit closer to Christmas because again in the "old" days when the kids were little, they used to drive me mad poking around in it looking for prezzies ! Not to mention what "Mishka" the Malamute used to do with it ! (Sniff. Wish she was still here).
Then everything ends up in a mad rush, but I still love it ! Now the kids are nearly as old as me its toned down a bit !
You're not weird Zia- there's only 3 weeks to go !
ozchick
12-09-07, 02:12 PM
http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/images/smilies/Even%20More/nothingtoadd.gif
I'm finally caught up. Just in time for S3. :p
Seems weird to talk about the episode after all this threadjacking, so I won't. ;) I'll just write the nicknames, and there weren't even any new ones.
Sawyer Nicknames:
Doc: Jack
Freckles: Kate
I'm finally caught up. Just in time for S3. :p
Seems weird to talk about the episode after all this threadjacking, so I won't. ;)
OMG! This thread is beyond jacked. :D It's really entertaining though. Have you read any of it?
I think we may need a chat thread in here.
YAY! You're caught up!
Wow. Looks like you people had fun in here.
Sorry, but, uh, Lost-talk:
I still think this episode should have been called "Button, Button, Whose Got the Button?"
As for the Hurley bird, I think the definitive answer was that it was all a big joke by TPTB because people thought the bird in the season 1 finale said "Hurley." I didn't find the joke that funny. (And, no, the Hurley-bird doesn't make an appearance in season 3, but don't let that stop you from looking, maybe I'm wrong.)
It's interesting that Desmond's story contradicts itself. He tells Jack at the start of season 2 he crashed on the island, saw Kelvin running out of the jungle and told him he had to push the button, so Desmond followed him back to the hatch, ect.
We see what really happened: Desmond crashed and was dragged into the hatch while unconscious.
Sloppy writing?
Charlie's behavior at the end is beyond weird. He makes jokes with Claire about the sky turning purple and John/Eko not being back yet. It's really awkward, especially how they're suddenly in love again.
Sloppy writing?
I always wished Hurley had done more after he found out Michael killed Libby. Although, I think Michael could've easily played off the whole situation by simple saying: "Look, you're right, I let Henry go, but he stole my gun and then shot Ana and Libby, and I tried to stop but he shot me too and ran out. I only lied because I didn't want you to know I let Henry go."
Slop...nah, just me this time.
Charlie's behavior at the end is beyond weird. He makes jokes with Claire about the sky turning purple and John/Eko not being back yet. It's really awkward, especially how they're suddenly in love again.
Sloppy writing?
I always wondered about Charlie's behavior after the implosion too. He acted as if he didn't care or have a clue (unconvincingly) and went on to ask, "What? They're not back yet?"
Of course, no one at the beach asked him any questions. Go figure.
I thought the concussion from the implosion may have stunned him. *shrug*
Maybe it stunned them all ! The ones that weren't already stunned anyway !
True. I thought about that too.
Hmmm....and doesn't this episode almost confirm that the whispers are the others?
You can hear tons of whispers right before Sawyer, Kate and Jack are shot with the blow-dart things. Of course, like anything in this show, maybe they were not what they appeared to be. Maybe they were warning the losties?
The whispers seem so 'other-worldly' to me.
I'd buy into the 'warnings' before I would the others whispering just to freak the Losties out. What would their motivation be?
Thoughts?
The whispers seem so 'other-worldly' to me.
I'd buy into the 'warnings' before I would the others whispering just to freak the Losties out. What would their motivation be?
Thoughts?
I kind of figured they could have been warnings Zia. There was a time when I had a theory, sort of, that the whisperers were the dead relatives of the losties, trying to keep an eye on them and protect them. I particularly thought of Sawyer's momma (natch !)- she was snatched from her little boy at an early age, so how better to keep an eye on him than from - well, somewhere ! Because of her violent death she may still be between this world and the next. Do you think I've been watching too much "Ghost Whisperer" ! Hmmmm ... :rolleyez::D
If you place any credence on the whispers dialog, the translations if you will (and I'm not saying whether or or not I do), then this question has been answered.
We have them. I'll search for the link later...
If you place any credence on the whispers dialog, the translations if you will (and I'm not saying whether or or not I do), then this question has been answered.
That sounds a bit cryptic Badger ! I admit that my response may have been a bit over the top ! :rolleyez: I would take Sawyer's mother with a grain of salt ! But Frank Duckett's voice in "Outlaws" was quite clear. "It'll come back around." So I guess this is just Sawyer's memory coming back to haunt him. But Sayid heard them too. Neither of them would admit it to the other.
I just figured its probably Locke, lurking around in the bushes. Warning: do not take this in the least bit seriously ! Sorry. :D
"Cryptic"? If you think that's cryptic wait til I start dancing with snakes :snake: and speaking in tongues. :teu87:
"Cryptic"? If you think that's cryptic wait til I start dancing with snakes :snake: and speaking in tongues. :teu87:
I'm not very fond of snakes, so I might steer clear of that one ! :rolleyez:
Speaking in tongues - well I'm used to that. :crazy1: :D
If you place any credence on the whispers dialog, the translations if you will (and I'm not saying whether or or not I do), then this question has been answered.
http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11494
Here's the whispers thread with the transcripts and some audio.
Have at it. :)
Thanks, Zia. They are very eerie aren't they. I found them really intriguing when I first found them. I think it was Lost Links, which disappeared, but I remember reading them when I was still lurking and quite naive ! Oh well that'll give me something to do ..... !
It's an awesome thread. RVT and Normal42 put a lot of effort into it. :)
sweetsunray
01-19-08, 11:52 AM
Only watched the first part of the finale, but that's enough stuff already to review with what we know now...
Funny, I always used to watch every epi for which male gets out of his shirt this time: most often it's Sawyer, Sayid is a good second, Jack rarely (and I know a great many who are relieved about it... I can only remember the shower scene with Locke, where Locke takes a peep down for a sec... hoot!)... anyway, in this epi we're treated on 2 bare chests and Jack's the only one who keeps his shirt on. Perhaps he's a prude?
The getting to Desmond's sailboat scene also hints at Michael's trap...
CHARLIE: Maybe it's a trap?
HURLEY: What do you mean a trap?
(they're talking about Desmond's boat though)
Desmond: first man he sees again is Jack... "You" The other man he already knows is still "boxman". Seems fair though of Jack to question Desmond of not telling them about the sailboat. At the time of Desmond's return nobody knew you couldn't sail away. Desmond didn't know either. He was angry enough at Inman of wanting to leave him on the island that he accidentally killed him, but he had no qualms with leaving on his sailboat while 40-something people had crashed on it without telling a soul? I will just pretend to think that Desmond would have informed authorities in Fiji had he come across them.
Desmond FB of getting out of prison: Although I don't think that in the past Desmond had something akin to flashes as he has on the island, I do think he had some intuitive feelings regarding the future... something innate that prepped him for the flashes talent. TPTB certainly always hinted at Desmond having such a talent by having him say, "See ya in another life, brutha," as well as the book he doesn't want to read until it being the last one before he dies.
And although at the time of first viewing we did not know it, there's something very strange about the pic: it's not a pic in duplicates normally, yet Penny has it on her nightstand, and Naomi got it from someone who is not Penny. And Penny knew what to look for with those Portuguese guys: some magnetic anomaly, a tiny glitch of a couple of secs to locate him. People have argumented that during flashes fb, Desmond related the story to his pal who must have related it to Penny. A lot more of Desmond's fb seems to point to Penny trying to contact Desmond while he's unaware of the future or her sticking it out until the future: she keeps on waiting for him, even though he ran out on her, broke things up with her... she's able to meet him at the stadium in the US prior to his sailboat race... somehow she slipped a note in his book (did she slip it in already before he went into the army, before he got to jail, or before he went on his sailing race?)... and she knows she must look for a glitch in magnetic forces. Still doesn't explain that picture being in the world 3 times at least. But Penny's patience imo must be based on much more than just a romantic notion of love and feeling of Des being the one.
But Penny truly is a modern Penelope, faithfully waiting and sure of her love's return, just as the classical one hauling out the threads of her weaving to delay the suitors as she waits for Odysseus to return.
Without knowledge of the other FBs by Desmond in S3 it seems as if Widmore separated two lovers by withholding Desmond's letters to Penny and that his judgement of Desmond being a coward is a prejudiced one. But now we know that Desmond is in fact a coward: he joined the monks in order not to face his fiancé at the altar the next day and tell her straight in her face it was a mistake to marry each other, and he repeated such actions with Penny, but this time he joined the army instead of monks.
Yeah, Widmore did keep those letters hidden from Penny, but in fact he kept letters from an ex-lover who broke his daughter's heart in the manner of a coward. It seems even weird that Desmond would be writing her so frequently after he ran off to the army and told her he couldn't have a relationship with her. And as weird for Penny to expect him to write her. Well, it isn't so weird (based on personal experience), but I sure also understand that a father wouldn't be keen on such a man stringing his daughter along.
I smiled when Widmore said Penny was going to marry another man, yet offered Desmond huge sums of money to stay away from her: no calling, no writing, no seeing her. For a man who's supposedly so sure that Penny moved on, he's quite desperate to bribe her ex-lover to stay clear from her.
Already in that first bit of a fb, the Odysseus connection is fully laid out before our eyes: being a soldier definitely separated Desmond from Penny as much as the Troyan war separated Odysseus from Penelope; Penny has suitors as much as Penelope had; yet despite Widmore's assertions we already know that Penny must be waiting for Desmond somehow because he feels it necessary to bribe Desmond just like Penelope waited for Odysseus; and we know Desmond was trapped on that island for 3 years, like Odysseus was trapped on Calypso's island; that aside from a soldier, Desmond is a sailor (also Odysseus); and even after being freed from his prison (the hatch for Desmond, Calypso's island for Odysseus) both tragic heroes are unable to simply sail back home.
Sayid's plan: well insofar Jack can't take advice he follows a great amount of advice for a plan with Sayid (and he has done so with Locke and Sayid before... the it's only Jack's way or the highway is an exaggeration imo). Although personally I think Sayid was wrong about not telling Kate, Sawyer and Hurley about it before they left off. It's every person's right to know beforehand what they involve themselves into. But I guess this would be one of those instances where Jack can't do anything right in some viewer's minds:
(a) it's a bad decision of him not to tell them before they set off for the reasons stated above, even although it's Sayid's conviction that they shouldn't inform them (not that Sayid's conviction or it being his plan lets Jack off the hook)
(b) it would have rained complaints about Jack if he had gone against Sayid's advice of keeping the element of surprise and had informed them based on his own conscience... then it would be the old Jack-doesn't-listen-to-other-people-who-know-better complaint.
Of course the reason that whatever choice Jack would have made it would still be bad, has little to do with Jack really, but all because the plan would never stand a chance, since the trap didn't involve the fake village but someplace else where the Others would wait for them. And the culprit wasn't Jack, nor Sayid even, but the Others and Michael.
TPTB even wrote the finale in such a way to indeed clear Jack from responsibility in keeping Sayid's suspicions secret for so long: Jack did tell everyone before they walked into it and he made Michael confess to his evil deeds. When they decided to continue, albeit with the hope of Sayid's misguided plan, they all chose to do so freely.
Although I agree that both Sayid, Jack, Kate, Sawyer or Hurley could have reasoned that the trap may be sprung at another spot, instead of the fake village.
a) They were already being followed.
b) Certainly Kate could have suspected such a thing, since she had been able to hear Tom say "Gag HIM" to Picket the night she got caught during the Hunting Party, and logical thinking would lead to the HIM being Michael and thus caught around the place where they caught Kate.
Eko-Locke in the hatch: Once again, Locke's nasty habit of wanting to decide what's better for somebody else rears up its ugly head. He decides nobody should push the button anymore. He decides nobody should be able to get to the guns (and Jack's medicine and heroin). He decides Charlie shouldn't look at his statues anymore. He decides Jack ought to push the button. He decides Kate oughts to go down the hatch despite her crying "stop" as they agreed to. He decides to blow up the hatch even though Hurley's nearly warns against it and is nearly blown up along with it. He decides nobody ought to know about the hatch because they're not ready yet. He decides that Boone ought to learn a lesson, whack him down and puts some wacky paste on his head. He decides nobody should leave the island and clubs Sayid down in S1, blows the flame, blows up the sub, throws a knife in Naomi's back, and locks Sawyer up with Cooper in order to kill him. And he decides Charlie ought to stop using and takes his heroin away.
Yes, there are many instances which can be argued to be for the better... but Locke has shown from the start that he has this nasty trait to act like he's the daddy and everybody else is a toddler and he gets to decide for them without even informing them of his decision.
And it is perhaps this trait of him that tends to make me furious. He's the one rightfully questioning Jack who are we to decide what somebody else does or doesn't do. Yet he's the worst imo when it comes to deciding for other people. He doesn't even decide, he even acts for others. And in that sense he's an incredible hypocrite imo. And while some of those decisions and actions were minor in the first half of S1, he gets worse at it with each season. He's imo no better than Ben, and slowly turning into one. And Juliet named the problem with Ben at the start of S3: there's no free will anymore under Ben. I don't think there will be much free will under Locke either.
Point for Kate to mention the fake beards and clothing. Jack doesn't respond to it, although he looked to Kate the first time Michael mentioned the Others as hillbillies in the hatch when they first brought him back. He clearly keeps silent this time thinking of Sayid's advice. At least Jack is smart enough not to give Michael a loaded gun.
Sun-Jin: ah, that was sweet. Jin voluntarily chose to stay with Sun. Now that's how it should be. You do something for your partner without them needing to blackmail you into it (not to prove you love them because they think that's what you ought to do if you loved them). You do something for your partner just because you want to out of your own free will and out of your own initiative. And what do you know, Sun helps him to help his friends by choosing to come along out of her own free will as well.
LOL about the getting caught in the net... Obviously in the previous epi Sawyer was sure Jate got it on: they had been gone all night, he didn't have much succes with Kate after the Hunting Party and Jack stayed out of the way for many days, while she moon-eyed Jack from a distance all that time, and then Jack made such a weird statement for Sawyer who had his own jungle adventure with AL on his mind. And Sawyer now learns he just has a dirty mind.
And LOL I'm sure Kate doesn't like the prospect of Sawyer and Jack talking about her. Not that I think any woman would like to be talked about between alpha-males, where at least one tends to talk the caveman talk when it comes to women (especially in their face). But it's even worse when a woman is attracted to both men. BTW this scene is a parallel imo to the ILY scene in the S3 finale, where Kate's surprised that Jack would defend Sawyer. At least for Kate's pov: in this finale she gets the impression that Sawyer and Jack are starting to have an understanding between them about Kate, something in which she's a subject rather than privy to... and this is similar to Jack explaining Sawyer's behavior to her: an appearance of understanding between Sawyer and Jack where she's the subject but not privy to.
The Hurley bird was a great gimmick, but I never saw it as anything more than that. I know the Lost-is-a-game theory sees more into it, but he never reappeared in S3.
I had to chuckle too with Jack's sheepish smile and excuse, "Sorry, must have forgotten to load that one." And yeah, Michael looked terrible in this epi: his face was all puffy and he had huge pillows underneath his eyes.
Desmond-Claire exchange over Aaron's dad: Perhaps this is the scene or meeting of two people that are able to represent opposing views on the same issue. Desmond broke up with Penny and the girl before that, telling himself he did it for them, that they were better off without him (sounds like Locke's way of thinking BTW He too always thinks he knows what's best for someone else), but Widmore was right that he did it because he was a coward. Claire's bf was a coward too, and I think you can be sure he's telling himself nowadays he chose what was best for Claire.
What is so wonderful about Penny though is that she looks through this self-dilusion and yet still see what a great man Desmond actually is; that she has the guts to go to him and tell him he doesn't need to prove himself to her. And what is Desmond's foolishness? He talks about getting his honor back by proving himself towards Widmore and proving he achieved something great. He so misses the point by that. He's not marrying daddy Widmore. He doen't need to prove himself to her dad, but to Penny herself. And I don't mean that he ought to prove himself to Penny for Penny, but that's actually imo his issue with women. He himself needs to find something in himself of which he feels he's worthy of them. But how can he ever feel worthy of them when he hurts them, runs away from them? The only way he'll ever feel worthy of Penny is by trying to make her happy, or at least act in a way that Desmond thinks of himself as acting to make Penny happy. No button pushing for a lifetime will convince Desmond that he's making Penny happy, quite the contrary. He knows he's only making her wait more and more, that he makes her miserable by it. How can he ever overcome that? Yes, Penny might come to the island for him, save him even... but I fear it won't solve Desmond's dilemma that haunts him already from before he knew her. He created his own endless misery-love trap. Unless Desmond does something that makes him a hero in his own eyes after saving Penny in some future event, I doubt whether he will remain with her even after a reunion.
Another parallel: Michael seems to have been on the verge of throwing up when Jack comes upon him. Of course he's sick because of his own actions in order to free Walt, his kid.
(and yeah I think Eko knew simply because Michael asked after hell, and I agree Eko's story also reflected upon himself, because he's now giving up on the idea of repenting for his sins by building the church and push the button instead; and it also reflected on Sawyer's shooting of the shrimp guy in Oz, as well as Kate's murder of Wayne).
The next scene, we see Sun being sick, also because of a kid... the one she's carrying.
DESMOND: We locked out a priest? Yeah, that would be quite shocking for Desmond who was once a novice to become a monk.
EKO: Charlie, do you know how they got the hatch door open?
CHARLIE: No, but if you hum it, I could probably play it.
LOL! Charlie must have had the wittiest lines on the show. Sawyer's nicks are funny at times, but Charlie just is the best when it comes to witty humor!
Ah, yeah, poor Charlie... he was an outcast and joined up with Eko in the building of the church (well he hooked up with Sayid too for a while). Being Charlie, he held a personal grudge against Eko once the project was forgotten. At least, Claire's willing to hold hands again. So, Charlie can afford to be forgiving and help Eko out when he's in dire need of him, he can afford the bestowing of help to prevent the world from blowing up. :p
HURLEY: But if you did have time -- you still would have killed her, right?
The most insightful question since a long time! Yeah, Hurley, Michael's been manipulated so much by his 9 days of isolation by Klugh and the Others that he can't think straight anymore, can't but have tunnel vision and go overboard in his tactics to lure Jack, Kate, Sawyer and you to the Others. Not that Michael was ever much of a subtle manipulator. A few other Losties could have lured them to the Others without needing to kill someone, but Michael and subtle solutions and acting was never much his dada... he tends to solve problems by overreacting and resorting to violence or prejudiced accusations. Michael already had tunnel vision before he was captured by the Others. I tend to think the Others knew this too BTW, and although they never told Michael to kill anybody, they probably suspected he would resort to such measures anyway. Klugh did warn him that the Losties would be so angry that they would follow him to the end of the world, or something like that.
MICHAEL: I'm sorry. You understand -- I am sorry. I'm sorry. I -- my son!
This sounded so pathetic... How weird it must sound to those four who believe they are brought into a trap by Michael in order to be executed. Clearly, Hurley and Jack believe the Others plan to catch them to kill them. So for them it translates as, "I'm sorry, I killed two innocent people and would have you for killed in order to get my son back." Really! Ok, so parents might kill those who harm their children, but would you truly choose to have 6 innocent people executed for your kid? And not just strangers, but people who saved your life, people you lived with?
And in a way, Michael parallels with Eko, doesn't he? Eko shot one old innocent villager in order to save his bro, and Michael shot 2 innocent young women who regarded him as a friend, and handed 4 friends to the enemy ( thinking they would be executed).
Sayid praying on the sailboat: I think this is the one time we see him pray, but it confirms he's a practicing muslim at least, which makes his premarital liaison with Shannon really weird.
Saywer killing the Other: it's strange how Picket wants to kill Sawyer for the loss of his wife, while Sawyer had nothing to do with it, but none of the Others seems to give a peep about the guy that was shot in the jungle.
sweetsunray
01-19-08, 03:57 PM
The second part of the finale:
Strange isn't it... over the seasons distances get smaller and dynamite less dangerous. First time anyone had to go to the caves it took hours to get there, and hours to get to the hatch. Now they get to the hatch and back from the beach and searching for dynamite (carried carefully) in less than what ... an hour???!
The enigmatic Radzinsky: His idea to make the blacklight map... What for? His idea to cut the film and hide the piece in the arrow. What for? It seems that everything he did was to create for a situation where a button pusher would come in contact with the hostiles. How did Inman join and come to the island with Dharma if Dharma already had lost the island to Ben? Is it possible Inman thought it was Dharma but that it actually was Mittelos on Radzinsky's request? Who was Radzinsky? What did he look like? Inman was a CIA agent, he trained Sayid to be a torturer and CIA contacted Sayid for a terrorist job in Sidney before the crash.
We do know for sure that Inman did not know all what Radzinsky might have known. At least Inman did not know he could not sail away from the island. But I don't think there's any other way he could have come to the island except with the sub, and the sub that was docked at Otherville could not have brought Inman without Ben's approval halfway the 90s.
BTW Inman wasn't kicked out of the army. I think he quit or went on pension, because he disliked what he was capable of making other people do (such as torture). He seemed to have been a special op commander. His conscience probably kicked in and he went for Dharma to redeem himself, I think.
EKO: John, this is your last time to end this. Open the door, and I will forgive you.
LOCKE: Forgive me for what?
For interfering with other people's free will, and thinking you know what's best for them?
DESMOND: I think your friends just blew themselves up, brother.
LOCKE: They're not my friends.
Pretty revealing of how where Locke thinks he stands, huh?
DESMOND: I can't hear anything. Maybe we should open it.
LOCKE: No, no; it's a trick.
DESMOND: A trick? They could be hurt?
Although Desmond is curious and wants to try and let the thing count down to zero and do nothing, he remains to have a perspective. Locke just absolutely lost it and has become paranoid. And I don't think it's out of character. IME and IMO the characters that rely the most on fate are also the most vulnerable ones when things don't occur as they thought it was. Locke thought his whole life destiny was to push that button. And he was wrong about that. Yeah, his destiny had to do with the hatch, obviously, but not pushing the button: it was to relieve Desmond, save him, as well as imo help rid of the Swan by forcing Desmond to use the key. And the question is in how much island visions and dream manipulations are your actual destiny. We saw Locke break into despair when Boone died, and we saw him slide towards despair after he saw the invisible map as well had Ben manipulate him, and turn into a conviction of disbelief.
For me the dilemma for Locke is that he is a man of fate without nuance: it's either total belief without questions asked, or it's total disbelief... but in none of his fate states is he open to reasoning.
In the past some have argued that this was a farce... When Jack argued against pushing the button, people didn't look down on it nor was he proven wrong, but at the end it was Locke who was to be proven wrong.
The difference is that although Jack argued the button to be fake, he never actively and purposefully pulled people from behind the puter, locked them, or even tried to destroy the puter (he did gamble with the parts after Desmond shot the puter as a stake to learn more about Desmond, and he did pin Locke against the wall to use the button pushing as a stake in order to let Locke open the gun vault while Sayid was beating Ben to pulp). Using other people's interests as stakes to make happen what Jack wants is in Jack's character, argumenting against the button pushing as well... but it would not have been in his character to destroy the puter to prove he's right. Jack has a big ego and is egocentric, but he doesn't tick on proving himself to be right. And if people are fanatic about being fooled (in his eyes) into pushing a button, he's not going to keep them.
The latter is exactly a character trait we've been introduced to in Locke from season one already. And since he's a man of fate he believes the button to be fake as much as he once believed it to be true and doesn't care about the arguments Desmond puts forward. And that makes him pretty dangerous imo to people as well as so easy to be manipulated. Once he believes something either way he goes the full length of it, without questioning. And when he's pushed into a doubtful phase he desperately chooses an extreme once more to regain his footage. Yeah, he's very useful to the island's dubious manner of manipulation.
We even see the same thing with regards to weapons. In S1 Locke's teaching Walt (a kid) how to throw knives even trying to tell Michael how he should behave with Walt (albeit on tiptoes), but in S3 he decides nobody should be able to touch the guns.
Eko's on to it much better than Locke is imo.
Hmmm, Sawyer, Kate, Jack and Hurley should have avoided open spaces where they could be surrounded from the bushes. Poor Sawyer, hit first and Jack making Kate run. Hurley cowering to the ground and paralyzed by his own fear. Kate gets hit and Jack "heroically" trying to carry her into safety. There was little else to do though. The Others were one step ahead of the Losties.
At least we got one big answer out of this: Desmond made the plane crash!
At the dock:
Sawyer and Picket are already put against each other. It was so strange to see Ben step from the boat as leader. And Tom immediately looked less menacing in the way he blushed when Ben asked what happened to his beard.
The letter: ok, so Penny slipped it in when he went to prison.
LOCKE: I was wrong.
The look on his face was so pitiful. No, he wasn't wrong imo about doubting the button... he had even more reason to doubt it than Jack did. What he was wrong about was how he decided to act for other people.
The attack of the hatch door
Already a red herring to make us believe fate or the island wanted Claire dead... not Charlie.
Charlie
His turn-around was so strange. He was right in the middle of that mayhem when the hatch was about to be imploded/exploded. But he never took the initiative to gather a crowd and look for survivors. Did he think them dead? And in S3 it's almost as if he even wasn't there at the time, trying to negotiate between Locke and Eko, trying to haul Eko to safety. He had Claire kiss him and poof it was as if he was never involved at all.
Ben's reaction to the violet sky
Ben didn't seem to be the least worried about what had just happened, nor surprised even. Did he know what happened?
Ben: And you let me go, set me free -- you lived up to your word. We live up to our word, too.
That's how Jack came to believe Ben's word was enough I think. They all saw Michael and Walt leave in the boat on a bearing that would help him get away from the island.
MICHAEL: My friends -- I was promised you wouldn't hurt them.
Ben: A deal's a deal.
Then again, he doesn't keep all of his promises, does he? Sawyer was hurt a great many times.
MICHAEL: Who are you people?
Ben: We're the good guys, Michael.
Ben's face literally lit up when Michael asked it, as if he was brainwashed himself. It was as if it was a trigger question for a standard brainwashed answer.
MICHAEL: What? What, am I stupid? Where's my son?
Personally, yes I think you're stupid, Michael. You've done and said a great many stupid things on the island, apart from a few genius ideas. Goodbye and good riddance!
Great ending with the Portuguese guys calling Penny about the anomaly! Still moves me.
Thanks, Zia. They are very eerie aren't they. I found them really intriguing when I first found them. I think it was Lost Links, which disappeared, but I remember reading them when I was still lurking and quite naive ! Oh well that'll give me something to do ..... !
Listen to them with headphones if you have the opportunity. They will really creep you out. ;)
Locke 'n' Load
01-19-08, 08:46 PM
Unless Desmond does something that makes him a hero in his own eyes after saving Penny in some future event, I doubt whether he will remain with her even after a reunion.
I think saving the world qualifies him as a hero (even in his own eyes).
Eko-Locke in the hatch: Once again, Locke's nasty habit of wanting to decide what's better for somebody else rears up its ugly head. He decides nobody should push the button anymore. He decides nobody should be able to get to the guns (and Jack's medicine and heroin). He decides Charlie shouldn't look at his statues anymore. He decides Jack ought to push the button. He decides Kate oughts to go down the hatch despite her crying "stop" as they agreed to. He decides to blow up the hatch even though Hurley's nearly warns against it and is nearly blown up along with it. He decides nobody ought to know about the hatch because they're not ready yet. He decides that Boone ought to learn a lesson, whack him down and puts some wacky paste on his head. He decides nobody should leave the island and clubs Sayid down in S1, blows the flame, blows up the sub, throws a knife in Naomi's back, and locks Sawyer up with Cooper in order to kill him. And he decides Charlie ought to stop using and takes his heroin away.
Yes, there are many instances which can be argued to be for the better... but Locke has shown from the start that he has this nasty trait to act like he's the daddy and everybody else is a toddler and he gets to decide for them without even informing them of his decision.
And it is perhaps this trait of him that tends to make me furious. He's the one rightfully questioning Jack who are we to decide what somebody else does or doesn't do. Yet he's the worst imo when it comes to deciding for other people. He doesn't even decide, he even acts for others. And in that sense he's an incredible hypocrite imo. And while some of those decisions and actions were minor in the first half of S1, he gets worse at it with each season. He's imo no better than Ben, and slowly turning into one. And Juliet named the problem with Ben at the start of S3: there's no free will anymore under Ben. I don't think there will be much free will under Locke either.
*yawn*
Locke 'n' Load
01-19-08, 08:52 PM
Locke thought his whole life destiny was to push that button. And he was wrong about that. Yeah, his destiny had to do with the hatch, obviously, but not pushing the button: it was to relieve Desmond, save him, as well as imo help rid of the Swan by forcing Desmond to use the key.
Locke had to push the button until Desmond returned with the key.
sweetsunray
01-20-08, 04:34 AM
Locke had to push the button until Desmond returned with the key.
Agreed, and when Locke started to doubt, Eko needed to push the button until Desmond returned.But I mostly think it was the island's intention for Locke to force Desmond to destroy it.
Desmond didn't have the key, it was in a book on the shelf...which is odd, considering Locke went through all the books when he was "alphabetizing" them halfway through the season.
must've skipped one.
Locke 'n' Load
01-20-08, 07:18 PM
Desmond didn't have the key, it was in a book on the shelf...which is odd, considering Locke went through all the books when he was "alphabetizing" them halfway through the season.
must've skipped one.
That's right. Thanks, Cranky, for refreshing my memory. :D
sweetsunray
01-20-08, 08:37 PM
Desmond didn't have the key, it was in a book on the shelf...which is odd, considering Locke went through all the books when he was "alphabetizing" them halfway through the season.
must've skipped one.
It was in Desmond's Dickens' book!
Yeah, that's strange: he forever thinks of wrapping it up and taking it with him even when there's little time, and yet he didn't take it in his backpack onto the sailboat?
If he did take it along then what is it doing on the shelf of the Swan. I don't imagine he placed it there when he reentered the Swan with Locke and locked Eko out.
The only explanation for Locke not finding it I guess is that
a) The book was behind some other books, the key half fixed behind some flap at the back of the book
b) Locke was interrupted with his alphabetizing when Sawyer ran inside warning Locke about Jin and Jack coming for the guns in the Long Con. He probably didn't finish his alphabetizing, being too busy hiding the guns AND the medicine AND the heroin from Jack.
Oh, it was in the Dickens book? I thought only the note was in that book? Wait, did he put the note and key in that book when Locke was pounding on the door and stuff?
So, did Desmond actually pick up and take The Third Policeman when he left at the start of the season, because I recall it just sitting on the bed, but I also recall lots of discussion about it. I'm not going to say either way if Our Mutual Friend ever appears in MoSMoF, but I don't believe it did.
I thought the key was just in some random book...you know, kind of like how the Orientation was randomly behind Turn of the Screw, because Desmond goes to the shelf to retrieve it. Why would he leave behind the last book he'll ever read if he was planning on leaving the island?
sweetsunray
01-21-08, 05:37 AM
at least it's suggested, because it coincides with the fb of him getting the book of the shelf and finding Penny's letter in it after he's been drinking and toying with the gun idea.
sgtdraino
01-21-08, 11:14 PM
I can only remember the shower scene with Locke, where Locke takes a peep down for a sec... hoot!)...
Hey, sometimes when you see a train wreck, you can't help but gawk at it. ;)
At the time of Desmond's return nobody knew you couldn't sail away. Desmond didn't know either.
Well, really we still don't know. Desmond was drunk off his arse. Hopefully we'll learn more details about how you can and can't leave the island in Season 4.
He was angry enough at Inman of wanting to leave him on the island that he accidentally killed him, but he had no qualms with leaving on his sailboat while 40-something people had crashed on it without telling a soul?
I think when Des ran, he didn't think they'd be able to fix the computer, and something really terrible might happen. He was panicking, intent only on getting as far away from the hatch as possible. Des does have a past nature of cowardice. He only truly established himself as a hero when he finally went down and turned that key.
TPTB certainly always hinted at Desmond having such a talent by having him say, "See ya in another life, brutha," as well as the book he doesn't want to read until it being the last one before he dies.
Keep in mind, it could be that at some point in the future, Des will again travel back and relive moments in his past. If so, that would explain these hints.
Sayid's plan: well insofar Jack can't take advice he follows a great amount of advice for a plan with Sayid (and he has done so with Locke and Sayid before... the it's only Jack's way or the highway is an exaggeration imo).
There are certainly exceptions to every rule. Sayid is, I believe, the only person whose opinion Jack actually gives credence to. Sadly, on this occasion, I think Sayid's plan was badly flawed from the very beginning. In fact, I think "Sayid's plan" is just about the stupidest tptb have ever portrayed the character. Sayid let the enemy dictate the conditions of their engagement. He had given up the initiative before he had even begun.
Eko-Locke in the hatch: Once again, Locke's nasty habit of wanting to decide what's better for somebody else rears up its ugly head.
Not necessarily "somebody" else, more like "everybody" else. Locke's MO is to generally let individuals do whatever they want, as long as they are not messing things up for everybody. It's the things that affect everybody, that Locke feels the need to take action on. And to an extent, yes, Locke does feel he has a more complete perspective on what is best for the 815s as a whole, because of the guidance he receives from the island.
Of course, on this particular occasion, Locke has lost his faith, and is lashing out at the object he had previously put faith in (represented by the computer). It is definitely not one of Locke's prouder moments, but heck, he's only human. And as it turned out, the whole thing was a manipulation to further the Island's agenda anyway. The Island wanted Locke to lose faith for a while.
He decides nobody should push the button anymore.
Yeah, I still feel like this was out-of-character, and kinda poor writing, but whatever.
He decides nobody should be able to get to the guns (and Jack's medicine and heroin).
Well, to be specific, he did not feel Jack should have sole control over the weapons. The medicine and heroin just happened to be in there. In short, Locke trusts himself to guard over the weapons more than he trusts Jack to guard over the weapons. I don't blame him. Locke has a much cooler head than Dr. Sheppard.
He decides Charlie shouldn't look at his statues anymore.
Hey, Charlie was acting pretty nuts there, for awhile. Locke was following his own MO. As long as Charlie was only a danger to himself, Locke let Charlie make his own decisions. When Charlie demonstrated that he could be a danger to others, that's when Locke felt compelled to step in.
He decides Jack ought to push the button.
It was stupid not to push a button that's been pushed for the past 2+ years, so long as you have no idea what will happen if you stop. Jack was just being pig-headed as usual. Locke had carried forward on his own faith for as long as he could, with little to no support from anyone around him. Human beings are social creatures, and it is really hard to keep doing "the right thing" when everyone around you is giving you crap for it, and you have no help or support. At that moment, Locke was at the end of his rope. All he wanted was a little help. And maybe... just maybe... to make Jack a better person.
He decides Kate oughts to go down the hatch despite her crying "stop" as they agreed to.
Uuuuh, he did stop, when she said stop. When she indicated she was okay, he continued.
He decides to blow up the hatch even though Hurley's nearly warns against it and is nearly blown up along with it.
Locke believed opening the hatch was vital to everyone's survival. Of course he opened it.
He decides nobody ought to know about the hatch because they're not ready yet.
lol. They weren't! :)
He decides that Boone ought to learn a lesson, whack him down and puts some wacky paste on his head.
lol. And he did! And apparently Boone decided the action was justified, since he kept hanging out with Locke and helping him.
He decides nobody should leave the island and clubs Sayid down in S1,
Well, his stated reason for knocking out Sayid, is that the radio tower was too dangerous to take people to at that time. Was that the truth? We don't know. It's the only evidence of his motivations that we have at this time.
blows the flame, blows up the sub, throws a knife in Naomi's back,
The reasons why Locke has done all of those things have not yet been revealed to us. You are simply reading things into his actions for which there is no evidence.
and locks Sawyer up with Cooper in order to kill him.
Hey, the man needed killing. The choice was ultimately up to Sawyer.
And he decides Charlie ought to stop using and takes his heroin away.
See above.
Locke has shown from the start that he has this nasty trait to act like he's the daddy and everybody else is a toddler and he gets to decide for them without even informing them of his decision.
To an extent, I agree with you. The situation is analogous to parent/children. The parent is wiser than the child, knows things the child does not. The child does not have the knowledge or experience of the parent, and doesn't know any better. The child doesn't realize that his actions will harm himself or others, and it is the parent's responsibility to keep the child safe.
Locke is the closest thing to being the metaphorical "father" on the island. The Island has imparted wisdom, guidance, and knowledge to him that no one else is privy to, not even Ben. Locke isn't perfect, but I still feel he is closer than anyone else to understanding the nature of the place where he and the other 815s live.
And it is perhaps this trait of him that tends to make me furious. He's the one rightfully questioning Jack who are we to decide what somebody else does or doesn't do. Yet he's the worst imo when it comes to deciding for other people. He doesn't even decide, he even acts for others. And in that sense he's an incredible hypocrite imo.
You just have to understand his MO. Locke is acting in the role of a government official, protecting the citizens from harming each other, but at the same time maintaining their individual rights as much as possible. If you view his action through this lens, you may find they start making more sense. You might argue that the 815s have not granted him any such authority, but they are not living in America, or 815-land, they are living on Lost Island. I would argue that Locke's authority has been granted to him by The Island itself. So, Jack is like the mayor of 815-town, which exists within the state of Lost Island, for which Locke is the chief law enforcement officer.
I don't think there will be much free will under Locke either.
We shall see! In the few times we've seen Locke in a leadership role so far, it has not been very dictatorial.
EKO: John, this is your last time to end this. Open the door, and I will forgive you.
LOCKE: Forgive me for what?
For interfering with other people's free will, and thinking you know what's best for them?
lol. But that is of course not what Eko is talking about. Eko believes pushing the button is the most important job there is, a holy calling. And to an extent he is right. What he doesn't realize it that all of this is transpiring according to The Island's design.
DESMOND: I think your friends just blew themselves up, brother.
LOCKE: They're not my friends.
Pretty revealing of how where Locke thinks he stands, huh?
Think of the earlier scene, where Charlie was laughing at Locke, as he cried. And to a lesser extent, when Eko forcibly kicks his butt out of the hatch. That is where that statement comes from, and I think it's understandable, if not completely accurate.
DESMOND: I can't hear anything. Maybe we should open it.
LOCKE: No, no; it's a trick.
DESMOND: A trick? They could be hurt?
Although Desmond is curious and wants to try and let the thing count down to zero and do nothing, he remains to have a perspective. Locke just absolutely lost it and has become paranoid.
I agree, Locke is simply not firing on all cylinders during this time period.
And I don't think it's out of character. IME and IMO the characters that rely the most on fate are also the most vulnerable ones when things don't occur as they thought it was.
Well, that's your opinion all right. I'd say that this is the case with anyone, who believes something very strongly, and then suddenly learns that their belief was (apparently) misplaced. That goes for any school of thought, from scientific to religious.
Locke thought his whole life destiny was to push that button.
We don't know if Locke thought his whole life's destiny was to do that. In fact, I'd argue that he began to lose faith when he feared that pushing the button was all there would ever be to it, and then completely lost it for awhile when it appeared there was no destiny in the first place.
And he was wrong about that. Yeah, his destiny had to do with the hatch, obviously, but not pushing the button:
Well, part of it was pushing the button, certainly.
it was to relieve Desmond, save him, as well as imo help rid of the Swan by forcing Desmond to use the key.
On this, you and I are in complete agreement.
And the question is in how much island visions and dream manipulations are your actual destiny.
Heh. I would say that Locke losing faith for a time was part of his destiny. It was necessary for him to lose faith in order to get the key turned.
We saw Locke break into despair when Boone died, and we saw him slide towards despair after he saw the invisible map as well had Ben manipulate him, and turn into a conviction of disbelief.
Human beings all have times when they are weak, and times when they are strong. Faith is often tested, over and over.
For me the dilemma for Locke is that he is a man of fate without nuance: it's either total belief without questions asked, or it's total disbelief... but in none of his fate states is he open to reasoning.
I think it's more accurate to say that we the audience are simply not privy to Locke's reasoning processes. It's how the creators maintain his mystery. Most of the time, we do not know how Locke thinks. I think that's on purpose, because it forces the audience to make (or not make) a leap of faith just like Locke does. You either believe he's doing the right thing, or you don't. A brilliant concept of character.
In the past some have argued that this was a farce... When Jack argued against pushing the button, people didn't look down on it nor was he proven wrong, but at the end it was Locke who was to be proven wrong.
Well, Jack was proven to be wrong the whole time, Locke was proven to be right at the beginning, but having faltered at the end... a loss of faith that he was basically manipulated into, by The Island.
The difference is that although Jack argued the button to be fake, he never actively and purposefully pulled people from behind the puter, locked them,
But Jack was never invested in the computer to start with. It is one thing when someone never believes in a thing to start with, it is another to get somebody to believe in something, and then show them that they were being tricked the whole time. There is a sense of being betrayed by your faith. You'll find when a person who believes strongly in something, suddenly comes to believe the opposite, it is that sort of person who becomes the strongest opponent of what their initial belief was.
but it would not have been in his character to destroy the puter to prove he's right. Jack has a big ego and is egocentric, but he doesn't tick on proving himself to be right.
Again, that's because he's not invested in it. A good example, is when Jack was obsessing about his wife seeing somebody else. He initially had a strong faith in his wife, and believed in her. Then, he found out that she was seeing somebody else. What was a strong positive believe, rapidly turned into a strong negative believe. It's that sort of turn-around, that sort of betrayal, that leads him into stalking behavior and assaulting his father. He became obsessed with what he had previously believed in.
In this regard, Jack and Locke show similar characteristics.
The latter is exactly a character trait we've been introduced to in Locke from season one already. And since he's a man of fate he believes the button to be fake as much as he once believed it to be true
I don't think this has anything to do with science or faith. Jack always believed the button was fake, with zero evidence at all. This is more a characteristic that is common to all of us, when we feel betrayed by someone or something we once believed in.
We even see the same thing with regards to weapons. In S1 Locke's teaching Walt (a kid) how to throw knives even trying to tell Michael how he should behave with Walt (albeit on tiptoes),
Too bad Michael didn't listen to Locke more. :)
but in S3 he decides nobody should be able to touch the guns.
You're reading into things, again. Locke reacted because he was led to believe Jack was going to violate their agreement of dual-guardianship. Which, lol, he was in fact planning to do.
Eko's on to it much better than Locke is imo.
I'm interested to hear what you mean by this.
LOCKE: I was wrong.
The look on his face was so pitiful. No, he wasn't wrong imo about doubting the button... <snip> What he was wrong about was how he decided to act for other people.
lol. You have it exactly backwards!
Charlie
His turn-around was so strange. He was right in the middle of that mayhem when the hatch was about to be imploded/exploded. But he never took the initiative to gather a crowd and look for survivors. Did he think them dead?
Heh. This is actually another example of how people react when they feel they have been betrayed. Charlie felt betrayed by Locke, when Locke lost faith in him, and thus turned into a bitter opponent of Locke. Charlie then felt betrayed by Eko (twice) when Eko left the church project for the hatch, and then at the end when Eko refused to leave the imploding hatch with Charlie, and went back for Locke instead. Charlie does not care what has happened to them, because he feels they betrayed him.
Agreed, and when Locke started to doubt, Eko needed to push the button until Desmond returned.But I mostly think it was the island's intention for Locke to force Desmond to destroy it.
Exactly.
The only explanation for Locke not finding it I guess is that
a) The book was behind some other books, the key half fixed behind some flap at the back of the book
b) Locke was interrupted with his alphabetizing when Sawyer ran inside warning Locke about Jin and Jack coming for the guns in the Long Con. He probably didn't finish his alphabetizing, being too busy hiding the guns AND the medicine AND the heroin from Jack.
I think "b" is the option that I'd go with. Locke just got distracted, and never got back to that project.
Damn sarge! You quoted and replied to more statements in one post than I have in almost 3,000! You deserve a medal for that.
I'm especially fond of this one...
Hey, sometimes when you see a train wreck, you can't help but gawk at it.
Damn right! And that's especially true when you're the one that caused it.
sweetsunray
01-23-08, 12:33 AM
Problem with quoting one sentence from a paragraph if you intend to tackle the paragraph (heck multiple ones) anyway is that the idea behind the paragraph is taken out of context, the reactions to the quote may be beside the point, etc, and that makes it pretty hard for the one who was quoted to give meaningful answers.
I think when Des ran, he didn't think they'd be able to fix the computer, and something really terrible might happen. He was panicking, intent only on getting as far away from the hatch as possible. Des does have a past nature of cowardice. He only truly established himself as a hero when he finally went down and turned that key.
Desmond's my favourite arc hero, but he is indeed a coward. I understand he panicked and wanted to get away as far as he could asap. He still left more than 40 people on the beach and ran to his sailboat without mentioning it and stole away just as much as Inman would have, and so Jack's remark is justified. It's something I hadn't registered fully until this rewatch.
Most probably though, TPTB had Desmond run away from the plot for a while, not sure yet what to do with him, not sure whether the audience would want him, and only much later in the season came up with the idea of Desmond having sailed away because they needed a boat for their plot regarding Sayid investigating the hostiles and join up with Jack et all there.
Keep in mind, it could be that at some point in the future, Des will again travel back and relive moments in his past. If so, that would explain these hints.
Could be, but I just think he's intuitively prone to the ability. Almost anybody on the island has been confronted with something of their past which was a turning point in their lives, or a stepping stone. And even those people who learn to live and accept their past without wishing overall they could turn back time have one event they wish they could have handled differently.
In Flashes, Des returned to that moment of his life that he truly and deeply regrets in Flashes whether in his mind solely or physically. And we learn how deeply he regrets it, because he tries to change it.
In both interpretations (just memories or actual time traveling) of Flashes it speaks volumes that he attempts to alter that past, about his emotional despair as well as his approach to life and time. Especially that approach to life and time has been hinted at before, "See you in another life brutha"... well hinted? I feel like they emphasized this from the start.
Contrast this to the fbs of other people which remain closed and where the subject does not intervene, only relives it. If the island enables time traveling, then why do the others don't do it in their FBs? Don't they regret a great many of their past choices? I'm certain Kate wished toyplane-Tom hadn't got killed. I'm certain Locke wished he hadn't fallen out of a window several stores down, or lost Helen. I'm certain Jack wished he never married Sarah or beat his dad up over her. I'm certain Sawyer wished he hadn't killed the shrimp guy or knocked up Cassidy. I'm certain Eko wished he could have prevented his brother from being shot. Yet none fantasize of changing their past or attempts it. This to me shows Desmond having a unique view on the past and time itself: he comes to the island with a belief (for some reason) that the past can be altered, a belief that nobody else has. If they don't believe they can alter the past, then their wish to actually attempt it is lessened significantly.
Desmond's own pre-island attitude makes him prone to his own assets, just like Locke's the-universe-has-a-plan-for-me attitude makes him prone to his own assets, etc...
Just a theory like any other of course, and people can put up another one against it. But me being me I like this one outlook on Desmond a lot... not to mention that he's Lost's Odysseus, a classic hero who's myths and stories are steeped in him trying to make a prophesy come true, prevent it or avoid it, although at the same time he's portrayed as the most sensible guy of the lot at Troy's walls. Odysseus had a believer's attitude towards prophesy and oracles, and so imo does Desmond.
Sayid is, I believe, the only person whose opinion Jack actually gives credence to.
I disagree with the idea that Jack's a guy who only takes advice from Sayid, and says black if Locke says white, at least with regards to S1 and S2. Jack's opinion or decision is not based on who's giving the advice, but on the content of the advice itself. He usually tends to make up his own mind based on arguments and input. We can conclude this because his decisions cannot be linked to the person who gives advice.
For instance he doesn't care about Sayid being vehemently against opening the hatch and totally agrees with Locke to try and open the hatch. Mind you, this is not long after Jack was I'm-going-to-kill-Locke angry. If Jack would have valued only the input coming from Sayid and none of Locke he would have refused to have anything to do with the hathc.
For instance he is dead set against Sayid's and Locke's idea to torture Fenry, and when he gets the chance he puts a halt to it.
For instance Locke fowards the idea to bring in Lucia to pry the truth of Fenry, and he's all for it once Locke gave his arguments. And that's after pulling-straw-trick with the dynamite, after disagreeing to go down the hatch that same night when they feared the Others were coming, after the Long Con, after the Fenry-torture...
Does Jack like Locke? No, he doesn't. Does Jack feel respect for Locke's way of thinking? No, he doesn't. Is Jack critical of Locke? He certainly is. Does Jack refuses to listen to Locke's arguments or input just because they come from Locke? No, he doesn't.
Does Jack like Sayid? He does seem to appreciate him the most, yes. Does Jack feel respect for Sayid's way of thinking? Yes, he does. Does Jack swallow whatever plan Sayid offers, agrees with whatever is Sayid's opinion? no, he doesn't.
These contrasts show, that no matter how much of a bully Jack can be, is that he can value or vehemently disagree with input and arguments no matter who's the source, and makes up his own mind based on
a) the situation
b) his morals
c) his goal.
Whether you agree if Jack or any leader for that matter should be allowed to make up his own mind, whether his morals are to be agreed with, or his goal is of course a whole different debate. But I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that Jack disagrees with Locke because it's Locke or agrees with Sayid because it's Sayid.
When it comes to a guy seeing the relation as one of rivalry then it's Locke, and Jack much less so: Ben doesn't try to manipulate Jack by egging Jack on with regards Locke being underhanded about AL , nor does Sawyer egg Jack on with regards the guns. But Ben does try to manipulate Locke by talking about which author he identifies himself with (Dostoyevski or Hemingway), and Sawyer cons Locke by misrepresenting Jack and Jin coming for the guns. And Locke fell for that trap several times. I give him credit for realizing this though after Ben's breakfast trap-talk: Jack gave him an explicit order (that was indeed overboard) and Ben wants to prey on it, but Locke doesn't allow it anymore. And after that, from S3 on, aside from Locke's statement to Niki and Paolo when inviting people to come to the Pearl, at least Locke seems to have let go of that rivalry and has grown up some more.
Sadly, on this occasion, I think Sayid's plan was badly flawed from the very beginning. In fact, I think "Sayid's plan" is just about the stupidest tptb have ever portrayed the character. Sayid let the enemy dictate the conditions of their engagement. He had given up the initiative before he had even begun.
Actually, after this rewatch I'm inclined to say Sayid had several stupid plans so far:
- torturing Sawyer
- refusing to be involved with the opening of the hatch
- refusing to help out in getting Danielle's battery until Hurley running off by himself forced him to
- beating Ben to pulp (was pretty useless and loss of time)
- trying to lure the Others to the black smoke and putting Sun in danger
With regards to the plan regarding Michael's trap... for me the flaw was that they should have scouted in a manner that would have kept Jack, Sawyer, Kate and Hurley out of harm's way. They should not have followed Michael's plan at all, and instead scout the area he described, returned and discussed from there, etc.
Not necessarily "somebody" else, more like "everybody" else. Locke's MO is to generally let individuals do whatever they want, as long as they are not messing things up for everybody. It's the things that affect everybody, that Locke feels the need to take action on. And to an extent, yes, Locke does feel he has a more complete perspective on what is best for the 815s as a whole, because of the guidance he receives from the island.
A) Well, we firstly disagree on the amount of guidance Locke receives. I know you think Locke has been having off-screen dreams and revelations, but because of what Locke says to Boone in Deus Ex Machina we can deduce the beechcraft dream was Locke's first one:
LOCKE: I had a dream last night. I asked for a sign and then I saw a plane crash -- a Beechcraft [pointing] right out there. It was a dream, but it was the most real thing I've ever experienced. I know where to go now.
That dream was Locke's first on-island dream and because of his faith-backlashes in S1 and S2 after that beechcraft dream it doesn't appear that Locke had too much dream guidance, except for the dream where he's Eko (predicting the transference of faith), the actively sought out wacky paste trip, and the Walt guidance (but we don't know how much he told Locke, and whether it's either Walt or the bad-vision source). Most of Locke's guidance imo is "seeing coincidence as fate"... serendipity. A serendipituous mind sees a sign in ... well everything really. I think this is his asset... but it gets muddled up by his personal hopes, his pre-supposed beliefs and the notion that he's more special than other Losties, and that's when he makes mistakes.
B) Yeah, according to you, Locke only interferes when it puts the Losties into an overall future danger based on what the island showed him off-screen: such as whacking and binding Boone and putting some wacky drug paste on his wound to rid Boone of his infatuation with Shannon (what most of us would regard a personal affair)... yet he argues Jack should let Michael go, not follow him, etc... because the island showed Locke this won't put the Losties in a future danger? What, Libby and AL were a sacrifice for the greater good too? Because AL needed to be dead to warn Eko?
Sorry, but that theory won't wash with me when put against the light of Locke arguing to Jack to leave Michael alone because nobody has a right to make somebody else do anything (says Locke), while Michael's captured and close by, turned, shoots AL and Libby and delivers Jack, Kate and Sawyer in the hands of Ben and Picket.
From his own words about the beechcraft dream to Boone and from his loss of faith and his need to use wacky paste to talk to the island, Locke isn't having nightly dream guidance by the island with flashes that reveal the future (good or bad...) to him. That's Desmond's asset, albeit limited. And if he doesn't get this constant guidance, then Locke's interfering based on his own assumptions, and in people's personal matter... in several cases by force.
Things don't work that way imo... not on the island even. Even Ben knows this, since Ben makes a point of it that he doesn't just need Jack to operate him, but needs Jack to want to operate him. Free, albeit manipulate, will.
Regarding your explanation for every situation I listed where Locke decided on each what somebody else could or couldn't do: I know he has reasons... my point wasn't that Locke lacked any motivation, or how much he was conned, manipulated or guided into doing it... the point was to list a continuous stream of actions by Locke where he decides for a while or indefinitely what's best for somebody else, and thus that it certainly is not out of character... So, I don't intend to answer to each of your explanations as that to me is besides the point.
I'll confess Locke's I'm-the-daddy attitude reverberates to me personally. The only one allowed to try at it and the only one I'll cover it in a blanket of love for is my own father (not that he ever actively interfered though). All it really ever did was strengthen my resolve to do what I thought was best for myself (strengthen my will), even if it meant banging my head against the wall and learn for myself from the bump. It works like a red flag on me when somebody else who isn't my father does it, and I've banned any such people out of my (personal) life the moment they actively interfere. Personaly phylosophy: strangely enough IME those who are the most active interferers or spouting advice without asking are those whose life is a mess (and they're often wrong), whereas those that get it together are the ones who'll refrain from it unless you ask.
But to make that personal experience useful into a Lost discussion... this is what seemed to have happened over 3 seasons of Lost: the amount of Locke interference (secretive) actions have indeed worsened Jack insofar that he's more determined than ever to do what he thinks is best without consultation. I'm not negating this is in part Jack's own doing and that he used to be a great listener or used to be open-minded... but whatever consultation, listening and partially-open-mindedness Jack used to have in S1 has been eroded away in S2 and driven into opposition in S3.
Where he might have sat down and ask Locke why he shouldn't call the freighter for rescue in S1, he can't anymore in S3. Locke's and Ben's actions strengthened Jack's resolve to listen only to his own consultation, which didn't need strengthening in the first place, and has become ego-driven (Jack did have an hero-ego issue from the start, but not an I'm the boss ego issue). Locke acting without wanting to consult resulted in Jack not wanting to be consulted at all by the end of S3.
Yeah, I still feel like this [preventing other people from pushing the button] was out-of-character, and kinda poor writing, but whatever.
Per the amount of times he interfered since early S1 on it's not out of character at all.
Well, to be specific, he did not feel Jack should have sole control over the weapons. The medicine and heroin just happened to be in there. In short, Locke trusts himself to guard over the weapons more than he trusts Jack to guard over the weapons. I don't blame him. Locke has a much cooler head than Dr. Sheppard.
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You're reading into things, again. Locke reacted because he was led to believe Jack was going to violate their agreement of dual-guardianship. Which, lol, he was in fact planning to do.
The above is a severe misrepresentation of the whole situation, and it also answers your reply in the Locke Fan thread which I prefer to tackle in here:
(1) regarding your statement Locke feeling Jack should not have sole control over the weapons...
- Locke had sole control over the hatch weapons (there were more of those than Jack's 9mms) to begin with since he was the only one who knew the code to unlock the vault.
- Jack brought the 9mms to the vault either of his own volition or after Locke argumented them to be safer in the vault (off screen)... The scene is ambiguous about it imo:
LOCKE: Is that all of them?
JACK: All 6 of them. There's 1 box of ammo.
LOCKE: At least we don't have to worry about running out any time soon. Jack, I'm grateful that you decided to keep them all in the same place.
Locke's statements (the manner in which he expresses himself)can be either seen as showing that Jack decided it all by himself, or that Locke is acting slimy grateful to appease Jack for following Locke's advice. Anyway, apparently Jack has no intention to have sole control over the guns.
- Locke isn't eager to give Jack the vault combination, which indicates Locke prefers to have sole control over the vault and the guns within.
LOCKE: I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're asking me because you're worried that I might fall off a cliff or something -- that it would be irresponsible for just one of us to have access to this room -- rather than this being an issue of trust.
- And Locke explicitly tells Jack that he wants to be the only one in control over the guns
LOCKE: Are you going to start handing them out? How many? Who gets them? How much time before there's an accident? Another accident. I made a mistake teaching Michael how to shoot and now he's -- he could be dead for all I know -- and that, that was my fault. I take responsibility for that and so, yes, I'm taking responsibility for the guns, too.
All this together shows that Locke wanted to be the sole one responsible over the guns.
(2) The evidence shows that Locke also moved the heroin along with the guns, and not that Sawyer just happened to get it because Locke left the hatch unmanned.
- we're certain that Locke took the virgin Mary statues with him along with the guns by the following statement by Charlie when Sawyer offers the Virgin Mary statues to Charlie:
CHARLIE: If I wanted them I would have taken them before I told you where they were.
If Charlie was able to get to it before Sawyer knew where Locke hid them then it means Locke took them with him. Now what's Locke hiding them from Jack for? Locke's not a doctor and can't proscribe it. Only Jack could. And surely Locke shouldn't fear Jack handing them out to Jin or AL or something. That's ridiculous! Nor is it Locke's possession... he took it from somebody else.
So, Locke's hiding more than just guns from Jack, including substances he would have no right to proscribe in the RW from a doctor who would. Since (1) has shown Locke wants to have sole control over the guns then it suggests that through the heroin either Locke also wants to have control over Jack OR he's just being petty and does it out of spite... which is not beyond imagination because of his later actions regarding AL interrogating Ben, and because when Locke asks Sawyer why he alarms Locke about Jack coming for the guns Sawyer says, "Because it'll piss off Jack," and Locke shows not to have a problem with that.
(3) the medicine is more ambiguous
- There are a few important reveals about the medicine:
* It's Locke who warns Jack to keep the medicine protected in the vault in the first place and who reveals off-screen that Sawyer has been pillaging from Jack's medicine stash.
* Locke knows Sawyer wants to piss off Jack
* Sawyer has the painkillers in his possession when Jack enters the hatch with Jin
* the vault is totally empty
- Regarding timing:
* Locke's worried that he won't make it back in time to press the button
* Jack and Jin won't be wasting time to get to Locke and the hatch
* Eko didn't waste any time to get to the beach, get Charlie, look for the dynamite and rig it in the hatch to blow up the hatch doors and push the button: When Eko realizes Locke won't let him back in the clock says 99 mins; he climbs out of the hatch and runs for the beach, and when he gets to the beach Eko claims to Charlie that if they don't do something the island's going to blow up in 90 mins. They get the dynamite, rig it and blow it up... the clock says 33 mins. Let's say that Eko climbing out of the hatch and running to the beach in 9 mins is a an exaggeration... but at least it shows you can get from the beach if you just walk purposefully and know where you're heading in say 20-25 mins. Let's make it half an hour.
* So, when Jack talks to Jin after Jin demands to have a gun you can expect them to arrive at the hatch half an hour later, and they arrive at the hatch just about the time the clock runs out and Sawyer inputs the numbers.
* Sawyer isn't breathing heavily at all when he meets John, not like Eko when he searches Charlie out on the beach, so at least he hasn't been racing. But he would have jogged... So, Sawyer arrives about 15-10mins ahead of Jack and Jin, which also means John knows the button needs to be pressed in another 15-10 mins.
* Dragging out the guns and heroin would at least take 5 mins, even in a hurry, and then leave... Locke probably left the hatch 10-5 mins ahead of Jack and Jin's arrival.
Now this would leave Sawyer only 10-5 mins to break into the vault himself and hide the medicine from Jack, get back in the hatch and press the button, and that sgtdraino is too big a stretch imo. Sawyer would have no idea how fast Jack and Jin will run/walk for the hatch and can't risk Jack finding him with all of the medicine. And if you consider Sawyer needing to pick the lock it becomes even more unbelievable.
- Sawyer didn't know the combination. The only way he could have gotten into the vault and get the medicine is with the help of Locke in several scenarios that defer in the degree of severity.
a. Sawyer was able to observe the combination by stealth
b. Locke opened the vault in full view of Sawyer and asked him to help him gather the guns and heroin as fast as possible, before he closed the vault once more and ran off with the heroin and guns
c. Locke left the vault open not caring about the medicine and for Sawyer to close.
d. Locke handed the medicine to Sawyer to help him piss off Jack
e. Locke ran with the guns + heroin + medicine to hide them from Jack
A few observations on that matter
* Locke turned away from Locke and went to the computer hall
* Locke was unwilling to share the combination, which rules out b, and also rules out Locke wanting to hand all of the medicine over to Sawyer, so not c or d either... And that just leaves a. and e, yet a. is very unlikely according to the timeline, and thus that only leaves e, with the one detail... Locke must have given Sawyer the painkillers back as a thanks or something.
Locke has no business hiding the medicine from Jack, and it screams pettiness and power battle initiative from Locke.
The only reason though I can think of that Jack doesn't go off at Locke over the medicine is because Jack is made to believe Sawyer pilched it behind Locke's back when Locke went to hide the guns.
(4) That Jack was about to violate the disagreement was Sawyer's con:
- he may not have liked it, but Jack agreed to talk about the issue after Sun regained consciousness and could reveal what happened to her
- he was talking quite calmly to Jin, tried to calm him down and although we cannot overhear what he's saying he's neither acting stressed nor angry... that's not the picture of Jack cavaliering a posse who's planning to hand everyone a gun.
- he only comes to the hatch with Jin, also quite calmly, not with a whole beach posse
- first thing Jack does is ask after John!!! So, at least his initial intention is to do as they agreed on the beach, consult again about a plan after Sun wakes up. Without John being there, he does decide to get into the vault to get two guns out.
The one who broke the agreement was John... he ran off with the guns + heroin + medicine without consultation at all, and he never planned to allow anyone with a gun. What if it had been Others who hurt Sun? What if there was a guy like Ethan out there? Locke thought ill of Jack coming out with the guns in S1 only after Sceve got killed, yet Sun can be kidnapped?
As far as Jack planning to hand everyone a gun that instant? Give me a break... It's Jack! (Locke's S3 words) The guy who gets the guns out only when he believes it necessary and only to a select few, who guards them by wearing the key on his shirt, and then tries to get them all back.
It was stupid not to push a button that's been pushed for the past 2+ years, so long as you have no idea what will happen if you stop. Jack was just being pig-headed as usual. Locke had carried forward on his own faith for as long as he could, with little to no support from anyone around him. Human beings are social creatures, and it is really hard to keep doing "the right thing" when everyone around you is giving you crap for it, and you have no help or support. At that moment, Locke was at the end of his rope. All he wanted was a little help. And maybe... just maybe... to make Jack a better person.
a) Jack had just given them the numbers to be inputted, and corrected Locke on the wrong number he had just typed in, so it's not as if Jack was totally opposed to the idea anymore. Least of all he was being pig-headed.
b) Kate, Sayid and Locke could have done it and were offering help... there was nobody besides Hurley trying to stop Locke. Not even Jack (see a). Locke was not alone, and had Jack's help when he returned to tell about the numbers.
c) how did pushing the button make Jack into a better person? He helped Locke to do what Locke believed he must do, even if he didn't believe in it himself by returning and tell Locke about the numbers (which was more than Hurley did, who would have allowed Locke to input the wrong number). It's just mind boggling that someone could call such an act pig-headedness and can't see that as an act of a good person who wants to help someone.
d) since when is blackmailing someone into doing something you believe in an act of goodness?
e) If S2 showed anything was that it was a very bad idea to coop Jack and Locke together in a hatch, and it didn't turn Jack into a better person (on the contrary) by involving him in the button pushing, something he didn't really believe in, but at least thought to be on the safer side to do after the arguments several other Losties made (which was why he gave them the numbers in the first place).
f) all I ever read is the gripe of how Jack takes on too much responsibility, takes too many tasks as his own... well here he was, ready to help people in knowing what they needed to know to do their own thing, but didn't need to do himself... but only he was allowed to press the execute button by Locke.
g) Not a great idea to haul the leader away from the Losties and isolated from them... hampers with the social contact needed to do the job.
I do get why Locke did it, and I do see it in a different light than I used to. He saw the unlikely connection between Desmond and Jack and bam... serendipity... assumed Jack's destiny must have been the hatch, and its purpose was the button... so in his mind Jack's destiny must have been pushing the button as much as he thought it was his. But he was wrong... Jack never had much to do with pushing the button, and Locke realized that was never much Jack's path to begin with by S3 after they were kidnapped and the hatch had been blown away.
Ironically there are a few instances where Jack got poker gamed into doing what he didn't want to do:
- push the button, after John's plea for help which he wanted only from him
- hand the guns to the Others, after they treathened to shoot a bullet through Kate's head
Uuuuh, he did stop, when she said stop. When she indicated she was okay, he continued.
I meant the following, after Kate drops several yards down:
KATE: Yeah, I dropped the light. Maybe we should... [Locke continues lowering her down] Well, okay then. (she says with a rolleye and unable to do a thing about it)
Locke never gave Kate much opportunity.
Locke believed opening the hatch was vital to everyone's survival. Of course he opened it.
...
Well, his stated reason for knocking out Sayid, is that the radio tower was too dangerous to take people to at that time. Was that the truth? We don't know. It's the only evidence of his motivations that we have at this time.
...
The reasons why Locke has done all of those things have not yet been revealed to us. You are simply reading things into his actions for which there is no evidence.
...
Hey, the man needed killing.
I don't much care how much Locke believes he's doing a great thing as little as people care how much Jack believes he's doing the right thing. I don't even care whether Locke's right/wrong or Jack's wrong/right about what they think is doing the right thing. They don't get to decide how somebody else must live/die, what somebody is allowed to do or not do in his personal life, what he ought to believe or not believe. You have your morals, I have mine, and by my morals Locke crosses the line by acting and interfering in other people's lives by force and manipulation, regardless whether he's right or wrong.
Your arguments follow the Machiavelli theme: anything is justified as long as it is for the greater good. I'm not a Machiavellist. I'm not arguing Locke's wrong about doing what he did that I listed because his intentions or his beliefs are flawed, wrong, faulty... but because it's interference. I ousted somebody out of my life six months ago because she interfered with something she had no right to, even though I fully know she intended to protect me, wished to aid me, thought she was acting how she supposed friends ought to act, etc, and that she is a good-hearted soul and person. I even recognize that if she had not interfered it wouldn't have led to a different result. But it was my life and it were my emotions. And I'm still glad I made that decision: good riddance. It's my right to mess up my own life, nobody else's. Now if I feel this strongly about active meddlers in RL, then I doubt any Locke-was-right proof or argument is going to change my mind about disliking this certain trait within Locke.
lol. They weren't! :)
Says you and Locke. Jack was immediately interested, and I'll bet he would have been interested in opening it whether there were Others coming or not. Kate certainly was intruiged. What they weren't ready for, was Locke's dreams-signs-island destiny talk. But they would have helped to open it without it.
lol. And he did! And apparently Boone decided the action was justified, since he kept hanging out with Locke and helping him.
Yeah, well, Boone was never the brightest light when it came to trusting somebody considering he allowed himself to be used by his mother to cross Shannon.
To an extent, I agree with you. The situation is analogous to parent/children. The parent is wiser than the child, knows things the child does not. The child does not have the knowledge or experience of the parent, and doesn't know any better. The child doesn't realize that his actions will harm himself or others, and it is the parent's responsibility to keep the child safe.
Locke is the closest thing to being the metaphorical "father" on the island. The Island has imparted wisdom, guidance, and knowledge to him that no one else is privy to, not even Ben. Locke isn't perfect, but I still feel he is closer than anyone else to understanding the nature of the place where he and the other 815s live.
Locke's not the sole one who gets dreams or visions, and he certainly is not someone who gets flashes. Thing is they are all privy to pieces of information. The only ones who know all are we the viewers. We know about each person's past, their connections, the island manipulations. We know much more than Locke does, and yet we know zilch.
And if you compare the Losties to children, then Locke's closer to early teenhood with regards to island knowledge rather than a father imo. Besides, not even my dad should do anything remotely like Locke does.
Locke is acting in the role of a government official, protecting the citizens from harming each other, but at the same time maintaining their individual rights as much as possible.
To use your own arguments... they're in the wild, no legislation, and he himself almost appointed Jack leader rather than himself... Or in Locke's own words, "Who are we to tell anyone what they can or can't do?" But apparently his actions show that he feels he can act for other people which is even worse imo.
Well, that's your opinion all right. I'd say that this is the case with anyone, who believes something very strongly, and then suddenly learns that their belief was (apparently) misplaced. That goes for any school of thought, from scientific to religious.
a) Yes, that is indeed the case for anyone who strongly believes in something and suddenly learns their belief was misplaced. I've been there myself. The more you believe in something to be true without empiric evidence the more you risk a mind collapse when you believe wrongly. I don't wish it on anybody.
b) science isn't a belief, but a state of perpetual doubt... and that's all I'm going to respond in that department... I'm happy to debate about that on some other board, but not here.
We don't know if Locke thought his whole life's destiny was to do that.
Locke admits it to Desmond in this rewatch episode we're posting in:
LOCKE: ... I thought it was my destiny to get into this place...
Well, part of it was pushing the button, certainly.
...
On this, you and I are in complete agreement.
You take one sentence of mine, cut it in half, make two quotes out of it and then give two different responses to it. The point of that sentence was that imo it was Locke's hatch-destiny to help the island get rid of the hatch (and it coincides with Ben's wishes too). The button pushing was only necessary for as long Desmond wasn't there to turn the key, it was a destiny for the time being. When I said Locke was wrong about the button pushing being his destiny, I meant it in the same way I had already mentioned it... Locke took the button pushing destiny as a final one, the ultimate purpose why they all crashed on the island, and it evidently wasn't. It's like meeting someone and thinking this is THE one... turns out 5 years later he was only THE one for four years of your life, THE passage, THE transfer from one destiny in your life to another, THE one for the time being. Locke at least seems to have learned to see destiny as something broader than some ultimate act/state that will need to go on indefinitely. And in S3 at least he seems to think it was his destiny to rid the island of all technology. This too I expect but to be a destiny for the time being. :)
Heh. I would say that Locke losing faith for a time was part of his destiny. It was necessary for him to lose faith in order to get the key turned.
You missed my point here. Destiny would be regarded as something as universal, something an ultimate god/the fates/or the universe powers control. Whatever the island is, I would not consider it the ultimate god/the fates/universe. So its dualistic and dubious manipulations could hardly be regarded as the dictations of destiny. It's like saying it was Jack's, Kate's and Sawyer's destiny to be captured by the Others when we know it was the result of a whole series of manipulations and breaking of people.
Human beings all have times when they are weak, and times when they are strong. Faith is often tested, over and over.
And the point related to what you quoted of me is? I didn't express dislike for John over losing his faith... actually these are the times when I can most sympathize with him. I'm glad his faith is weak at times, because that's the one thing that makes him at that moment incredibly human to me. I only said that it's very much in-character for John to be weak in his faith at times, while I've noted Locke fans sometimes waving it off as bad writing and out of character (uhum, as you did in your post I'm answering right now).
I think it's more accurate to say that we the audience are simply not privy to Locke's reasoning processes. It's how the creators maintain his mystery. Most of the time, we do not know how Locke thinks. I think that's on purpose, because it forces the audience to make (or not make) a leap of faith just like Locke does. You either believe he's doing the right thing, or you don't. A brilliant concept of character.
Again, nicely said, but how does it have anything to do with what you quoted of me? But here's what we see:believe, believe, believe, believe, believe - oops - disbelieve, disbelieve - oops - believe, believe, believe, believe, believe, believe, believe, believe, believe, - oops - disbelieve, disbelieve, disbelieve, disbelieve - oops - believe, believe, believe, believe,... etc. When I write it down like that, I'm not giving any value opinion on his believe or disbelieve... I'm simply observing that he's either in the belief state or the utter disbelief state, and that in neither state he is open to constructive arguments: such as Desmond giving him several well-thought out arguments regarding the interpretation of the Pearl video, the prints of the system failure and the date. He knows doubt at times (the oops part) but he cannot live/function under or accept perpetual doubt.
To make an analogy: following hard-core logic in the law someone can be proven guilty; if the court can't prove someone to be guilty then they are not-guilty... however legally speaking "not-guilty" does not equal "innocent." It only means court wasn't able to prove the accused to be guilty of that crime... it means the court eventually isn't sure that someone was guilty. So, according to logic you can either be sure of a positive (believe it) or remain unsure until proven otherwise. (which is why I said above science is not the same as religion when it comes to belief).
The thing I observe with Locke is that once he disbelieves he's not in a state of uncertainty, but he's certain that it's all bu11 (Locke's negative stance to Desmond showing him evidence that Desmond brought down the crash). He has as much faith in his disbeliefs than he has in his beliefs. If he hadn't as much faith in his disbeliefs he would not have destroyed the puter after Desmond showed him evidence to the contrary and wanted to push the button himself.
Well, Jack was proven to be wrong the whole time, Locke was proven to be right at the beginning, but having faltered at the end... a loss of faith that he was basically manipulated into, by The Island.
You mistook my meaning again with what you quoted of me... I was repeating the argument of many others. I was repeating the complaint of how unfair it is for Jack (who was wrong) not to be seen in a bad light at the time for arguing against pushing the button, while Locke (who was right at the start) was then made to look like a fool when he disbelieved in the button. And I repeated it to come to my point: it's not about who was initially right or wrong, but it shows how the two of them approach disbelief differently... it shows their difference as man of science and man of faith.
Jack argues against it, but does not interfere, heck even helps people to do as they believe by telling them the numbers... and when push comes to shove reveals he's unsure and makes the safest decision for the time being. -> Jack's mind follows the idea that even if you don't think someone's proven to be guilty it doesn't necessarily mean that the accused is innocent.
Locke argues against it, and does interfere, and when push comes to shove he's going to prevent anybody else from wanting to be on the safe side -> Locke's mind follows the illogic jump that if the accused is not proven to be guilty it means the accused must be innocent.
And so what if Locke was manipulated into it by the Island? (Well more particularly he was first manipulated into it by a lying Ben and Mikhail playing with food drop protocols from the flame.) The Island manipulates people based on their characteristics.
I was not trying to opine who was right or wrong, wasn't even trying to opine who's the better character regarding this fate-science issue... I'm merely making a character sketch here, and how to me both dealings portray in one instance the behavior of a scientific mind and in the other the behavior of a faith mind.
But Jack was never invested in the computer to start with. It is one thing when someone never believes in a thing to start with, it is another to get somebody to believe in something, and then show them that they were being tricked the whole time. There is a sense of being betrayed by your faith. You'll find when a person who believes strongly in something, suddenly comes to believe the opposite, it is that sort of person who becomes the strongest opponent of what their initial belief was.
I know... and exactly in unison with what I said about Locke making a mistake in thinking Jack's destiny was the button too.
A good example, is when Jack was obsessing about his wife seeing somebody else. He initially had a strong faith in his wife, and believed in her. Then, he found out that she was seeing somebody else. What was a strong positive believe, rapidly turned into a strong negative believe. It's that sort of turn-around, that sort of betrayal, that leads him into stalking behavior and assaulting his father. He became obsessed with what he had previously believed in.
Think this is a bad analogy... it's an analogy of betrayal, but I don't think it's about having faith in his wife. Jack was full of doubt about marrying her in the first place. Yes, he had invested in her emotionally, and yes he felt deeply betrayed (and so he should) and yes he became obsessed with her and stalked her... but he didn't put her on a stand and started to shout what a mean, betraying ***** she was. Actually, his reaction was that despite what she did, he could not see her in a bad light and still clung to her as a measurement of his own character. I would be incredibly angry to somebody first praising me into the sky for fixing them and then stepping all over my heart half a year later and be condescending about having something new to fix. It says more imo about his wife than about Jack, yet Jack takes it as something telling of himself... a repeat rejection just like his father did in his mind.
A better analogy would be the FF of Jack being a drug addict, wanting to commit suicide and flying every weekend across the pacific in the hope of crashing again. Now there's a faith analogy... he believed that they should be saved, flee the island and get back home... and in the FF he believes the absolute opposite.
Jack always believed the button was fake, with zero evidence at all.
a) you can't prove a negative through reasoning alone. I'm sure you know that
b) and no, imo Jack thought it was most probably a fake, but since he could not prove that when push came to shove he pushed the execute button. That is an allegory to a scientific stance.
I'm interested to hear what you mean by this.
LOL, I can't for the life of me remember... But I think it had to do with "don't mistake coincidence for fate" It portrays Locke's serendipity ways greatly. Serendipity is based on associating coincidence... true coincidence. The story of Serendipity is about Persian princes who make discoveries purely based on chance and for which they weren't even looking, and yet find out the truth of things. For example they comes across the mystery of grass growing higher on one side of the road than the other. Later on by pure coincidence they come across a mule that's blind only on one side. They make the connection that it the grass was higher on one side of the road because the mule must have eaten only from one side of the road they had traveled on. Hence serendipity means discovering one meaningless thing and then discovering another meaningless thing, yet associating them and creating meaning out of them... This is to me what Locke does most of the time. However, instead of seeing it as serendipity he regards it as fate/destiny... But ultimately serendipity is about giving meaning to something meaningless.
Locke's mistake imo is that he confuses serendipity with destiny... Eko knows the difference between the two. For him the finding of the piece of film tape in the bible and ending up at the Swan, seeing the movie and giving John the missing piece is serendipity, not destiny. However, Eko recognizes his brother and himself ending up at the same place as destiny. And Eko's right about that imo... the joining of the movie was just coincidence, Eko finding the beechcraft with his brother in it is no coincidence at all.
In that particular scene where Locke starts to muse about the sheer coincidence of Eko finding the movie bit and turning up at the Swan by it, it's so clear to me how different they think... There is Locke, thinking Eko crashed on the island to bring him the tape... It's almost insulting if you consider Eko finding his brother there.
lol. You have it exactly backwards!
That depends in which light you understood my words... clearly you thought of it in the light of "pushing button to save the world is good", "not pushing the button will destroy the world and is bad." But that's not how I meant it when I said, "Locke wasn't wrong to doubt pushing the button"... That I said with the opinion that the island meant for Locke to destroy the Swan from the moment it learned Locke had stumbled upon it. For the Island's purposes Locke wasn't wrong to doubt pushing the button.
sgtdraino, I think you're taking my words too much in a negative light regarding Locke, or seem to think that when I'm making an observation about Locke that amuses me that I'm also thinking badly of Locke. I don't think as badly of Locke as I used to... except for the medicine, and his interference trait.
BTW thinking of what's possibly to come for S4, I'm thinking it might have been better if Jack and Juliet had left on that sub, rather than Jack calling the freighter. :)
In Flashes, Des returned to that moment of his life that he truly and deeply regrets in Flashes whether in his mind solely or physically. And we learn how deeply he regrets it, because he tries to change it...Contrast this to the fbs of other people which remain closed and where the subject does not intervene, only relives it. If the island enables time traveling, then why do the others don't do it in their FBs? Don't they regret a great many of their past choices? I'm certain Kate wished toyplane-Tom hadn't got killed. I'm certain Locke wished he hadn't fallen out of a window several stores down, or lost Helen. I'm certain Jack wished he never married Sarah or beat his dad up over her. I'm certain Sawyer wished he hadn't killed the shrimp guy or knocked up Cassidy. I'm certain Eko wished he could have prevented his brother from being shot. Yet none fantasize of changing their past or attempts it.
What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: ‘This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more’…would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: ‘You are a God and never have I heard anything more divine.’
-Friedrich Nietzsche
I love that Nietzsche quote, Cranky.
I love it too.
...if the losties changed anything in thier pasts, it might have prevented them from coming to the island. As Locke says, it's their destiny to be there.
sweetsunray
01-24-08, 09:14 PM
Aye, Cranky...So, it is. Moreover, I myself am one who regrets nothing. We all are who we are because of our life, and I hope most people are happy with who they are.
I hope they are too, Sweetsunray! :)
To destiny, Cranky! :Cheers:
And while we are who we are because of our life, I cannot currently say that I wouldn't throw myself down and gnash my teeth.
People say they wouldn't change anything, given the chance. There's a few things on my list I think I would.
sweetsunray
01-26-08, 07:34 AM
Ah, first of all, having no regrets does not necessarily mean not wanting to change things. Because anyone who actively tries to learn from their past does so to make some change, if not for the past at least for the future... I won't necessarily change a thing, but will act differently in a new but similar situation. The one thing I would have differently is something that is beyond my control: Penny can have no influence on making Desmond stay with her despite his feelings for her.
LOST Hiatus Rewatch:
Week 16
Weds., September 9th-September 15th, 2009
S2: E23/24: Season 2 Finale
Live Together, Die Alone
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/zia29112/LOST%20Stuff/300px-Lost-season1.jpg
World Walker
09-13-09, 03:08 AM
Most of us can agree that LOST does season finales very well. Each finale raises the bar and sets the stage for what will come in the following season. Live Together, Die Alone is one of my favorite episodes of LOST, but not one of my favorite finales. I still think my favorite finale is Through the Looking Glass in Season Three. Season Two’s finale is very good, don’t get me wrong, but I think the biggest factor that made it such a cool episode was not so much the on-island action (with exception to the hatch implosion scene!), but getting to see Desmond’s flashback. To see his story play out on screen was nothing short of epic. And it was our very first non-Lostie centric episode. So, with that said, let’s get this ball a-rollin’!
Live Together, Die Alone is a reference to the words Jack used in his famous speech back in White Rabbit. The phrase is used often throughout the show and will be used next by Kate while a prisoner on Hydra Island. Given the nature of deaths on this show, I find the phrase rather ironic.
Desmond’s reintroduction was pretty clever. It provided the losties a boat to use (albeit briefly) and explained where he had been all this time. I always crack up when Desmond shoots holes through the hatch in his boat, runs out of ammo, and you hear a muffled, “Awwww, dammit!” in a Scottish accent from below. :clap:
Desmond tried to leave on his boat and sailed over two and a half weeks since Orientation, but the first piece of land he came across was the Island. Since he didn’t have the proper heading of 305 (Daniel’s heading) or 325 (the heading Ben gives Michael) he mustn’t have been able to leave the Island’s radius.
The first time I saw this episode I remember being floored by the fact that it was Desmond who was getting a flashback. At first I didn’t even recognize him, because he had short hair and no beard. Then when it dawned on me who the flashback belonged to, I nearly jumped out of my chair in excitement. This was a very unexpected treat. Again, I think this is the main reason why I regard this episode so well. :thumbs_up
Our Mutual Friend is the book Desmond claims will be the last book he’ll read before he dies. The discharging officer makes a comment that it’s a nice idea only if Des knows when he’s going to die. This flashback is before we learn about Desmond’s special abilities with time. Though I hope I’m wrong, I wonder if we’ll see Desmond reading that book in Season Six. If we do, I fear for him.
We still don’t know why Desmond was dishonorably discharged. All we got was an impression that he disobeyed an order or that he ran away. Charles calls him a coward. People have speculated that it was because he didn’t return to the army after the events we saw in The Constant. I’m not sure I buy that theory, but it’s a possibility. :scratchch
This is our very first Charles Widmore sighting. Who knew this man would turn out to be so important by the fourth/fifth season? Just like in Flashes Before Your Eyes, Widmore is being a complete bastard to Desmond. He doesn’t seem to want Des to have anything to do with his daughter, yet by 2007, Widmore seems to have accepted him, perhaps out of necessity for whatever events will play out in Season Six.
Eko, while hauling Locke out of the hatch: “Well, you’re free now, John. Do not come back.” – Indeed, Locke has been liberated from pushing the button, yet he still feels the intense need to stop the others from pressing it. Why? Why can’t he just let it be? I think the simple reason is because he is angry and ashamed. Angry at what he led himself to believe about the button and ashamed he got the others pressing it. He wants to make it right; he has to. And that’s why The Swan’s days are up.
It’s very ironic how the boat Elizabeth, named after Libby, arrived during her funeral. It’s a shame Desmond didn’t get to see her while she was on the Island. That could’ve made for a strange reunion.
This is the first time we’ve heard the Others being referred to as “The Hostiles.”
Libby looked very different in Desmond’s flashback. Now that I see the look on her face and the way she spoke of her husband, I’m willing to bet David’s death was the reason Libby spent time in Santa Rosa. It’s interesting to note that Libby, with seemingly no ulterior motive, facilitated Desmond’s way onto the Island. Just seems like another stunning move on the great chess board of destiny.
We’ve got another random Hurley bird sighting. What’s with that thing? It seems so extraneous since we haven’t even seen it past this episode. :confused:
While everybody ducked, I found it interesting how Michael’s impulse was to shoot the large bird out of the sky. Nobody else was attempting to shoot it. I think this goes to indicate how much those two murders have loosened Michael’s trigger finger. I would imagine that each subsequent killing would become easier for him (not that shooting a bird equates to killing two human beings). Regardless, Michael opened a door to a part of himself he will never be able to close again.
Our very first Penelope Widmore sighting! “I have a lot of money, Desmond. With enough money and determination you can find anyone.” Penny’s words foreshadow the efforts she goes through to find Desmond and she actually succeeds in There’s No Place Like Home Part 2/3. During the stadium scene, Penny doesn’t seem all that interested in the man she was supposedly marrying. She strongly alluded to being with Desmond if only he turned away from his race around the world. “What if you were back right now?” Was this a sort of arranged marriage Charles wanted for his daughter? We never really got any more information on this oddity.
Locke: “So, what did one snowman say to the other snowman?”
Desmond: “Smells like carrots.” :crazy1:
This is the first time the show makes use of a narrated flashback. This is when Locke is describing The Pearl and we see a quick glimpse of the scenes we already saw in ?. This technique is used a lot at the beginning of Season Five.
The four-toed foot! “I don’t know what is more disquieting – the fact the rest of the statue is missing or that it only has four toes.” We saw it before we even knew there was a man named Jacob on the Island. We knew absolutely nothing about the foot at this stage. Who could’ve guessed it used to be a statue of a fertility goddess. Who could’ve guessed it would be home to a man of deity-like proportions. And is it just my imagination, or did the foot shift from the right side of the platform to the left side by the end of Season Five?
Kelvin was already dressed in the quarantine suit when he discovered Desmond on the beach. Yet what was he doing out of the hatch since he was the only person at that point who pushed the button? Did he like to go on walks in-between his 108 minutes? We know the suit he wore to be a sham, so why did he have it on when he came across Des? Either he chanced upon Des on the beach and went back to put the suit on in order to con Des, or he was expecting Desmond’s arrival. The former is more likely, though the latter is certainly an interesting possibility.
Why did Radzinsky make the edits on the orientation film? Back in the 70’s, that guy was fanatical about security, especially regarding his precious Swan hatch. You’d think he would want to keep the warning about communicating with other stations in the original film. For that matter, why would Radzinsky need to draw the blast door map when he should’ve had a very good idea where all the stations were on the Island? This leads me to believe that Radzinsky really fell out of favor after The Incident and was banished to The Swan as punishment for being a tard.
This is the first time we’ve seen the formerly buried entrance to The Swan along with the quarantine door since the beginning of the season.
Sawyer: “Their heads are made of pathetic.” :rotfl:
How are the Others so good at blending in with their surroundings, popping up with barely a sound behind their targets in one episode, and downright sloppy enough in this episode to not only be seen by Kate and Sawyer, but for one of them to be shot? The Others sometimes seem like they have mystical abilities and sometimes they seem just as normal as anyone else. :eyebrow:
Hurley: “But if you did have time (to think) you still would’ve killed her, right?” – This is the most damning question that Hurley brings up. The answer was yes. Michael committed to killing both of those women, whether he had time to think or not. Even Ben says in Meet Kevin Johnson that his people never asked Michael to do that. He shot and killed Libby and Ana Lucia out of his own free will.
The rock with the hole in it looks man-made, sorta like the ruins of a Greek structure (although everything else on the Island appears Egyptian).
Did Radzinsky even commit suicide or did he drive Kelvin over the edge? I mean, can you imagine living with that guy? “Now Kelvin, if I’ve told you once, I’ve told you a thousand times…” “Kelvin, how bout a courtesy flush?” “Kelvin, you’re doing it all wrong!” “Kelvin, you need to…” BANG! :nanabobo:
Desmond really put up with a lot from Kelvin. Can you imagine being told you couldn’t go outside for over two years? Seriously? :rolleyez:
There were literally an insane amount of journals from The Pearl scattered about the pneumatic tube. That was our indication that the joke, so to speak, or the psychological experiment, if you prefer, was on the two men in The Pearl.
Just before the Others began attacking with their stun guns, you could clearly hear the whispers in the background. The whispers, along with Smokey, are the two things I’m most curious about getting answers for during Season Six. What do the whispers have to do with the Others? Do they happen when the Others use an ability like rapidly appearing and disappearing ala Harper? :ghost2:
Kelvin really ramped up Desmond’s suspicion when he said goodbye just before heading off to Elizabeth. Then, his suspicions already heightened, Des notices the tear in the suit leg. These are two tip-offs in one day which seems rather sloppy on Kelvin’s part. I wonder if he meant for Desmond to be suspicious in the hopes of drawing him out of the hatch. If so, I’m not sure what he hoped to accomplish. Kelvin was, after all, trying to dupe Desmond into pushing the button while he fled. Why draw him out into almost certain conflict? :scratchch
The scene where Desmond confronts Kelvin, accidentally kills him, and runs back to the hatch during the system failure is one of my favorite moments from this episode. The hieroglyphs, the voice shouting system failure, the magnetic stuff flying around the hatch, and Desmond frantically typing on the computer make it so memorable. :thumbs_up
This is the episode where we have our first huge revelation. The plane crash of Oceanic 815 was caused by the electromagnetic anomaly, which in turn was caused by Desmond failing to enter the numbers on time. This explains why the plane was ripped apart in mid-air.
What was the point of Tom wearing that beard? Was it just to make him look more ferocious and uncivilized, hence more intimidating? I used to have a theory that he wore the beard because one of the losties may’ve recognized him from their past, but regretfully, that didn’t bear fruit.
Our huge “Oh crap!” moment of the finale is when the boat arrives at the Pala Ferry and we realize that the man who spent so much time as a prisoner in the hatch this season is actually the leader of the Others. :thumbs_up
That was cool how they let us experience Charlie’s hearing loss after the explosion.
Desmond really hit rock bottom when he found Penny’s note just as he intended to read Our Mutual Friend. His complete and utter despair is very palpable. If he wouldn’t have heard Locke banging on the hatch, he would have killed himself that very night. I find it beautiful how Locke gave Desmond hope to go on just as Desmond gave Locke hope to go on.
The washer and dryer almost squashed Charlie. This mirrors the scene on Flight 815 where Charlie almost gets creamed by the stewardess cart.
The hatch clock crumpling up in its socket like a wad of paper really freaks me out every single time I watch this episode. Every single time. :fear2:
Locke: “I was wrong.” – Well, at least he can admit to his mistakes, I suppose. Anyway, have fun imploding, guys! :)
When Desmond turned the key it produced a very bright, white light. Gee, where have we seen that before? I wonder if Juliet banging on Jughead at the bottom of the shaft will produce a similar effect to what we saw Desmond do when he turned the key.
This is our very first viewing of the purple sky. The next time we see the sky go purple is when Ben turns the wheel to move the Island at the end of Season Four.
Ben claims he wasn’t happy with the arrangement they made with Michael, but I have the distinct impression he very much wanted to be rid of Walt. Notice how the compass bearing is 325 in this episode, but Daniel Faraday insists that it is 305 during the course of Season Four. What’s with the bearing switcheroo? Does it have to do with the Island moving?
Ben: “We’re the good guys, Michael.”
Michael and Walt being reunited was a very bittersweet moment. We’ve wanted to see it all season, but look at the cost!
Current Lostie Survivor Count: 48 originally -1 (Marshall died) -1 (Joanna died) -1 (Scott died) -1 (Boone died) -1 (Arzt died) -1 (Shannon died) +4 (Eko, Ana Lucia, Libby, Bernard joined) -1 (Ana Lucia died) -1 (Libby died) -2 (Michael and Walt left the Island) which brings us to a total of 42 survivors to date.
That last scene was very cool. This is the first time that we are given a scene that takes place in the present off the Island. It is also verification that there is indeed a real world still out there. And it blows a little theory beginning with purga and ending with tory (hope that doesn’t kill any kittens…) right out of the water.
Notice that the characters in the last scene are playing chess. This theme of a game endlessly cycles throughout the show. This, along with Locke’s original speech about Backgammon, may have been an early hint about Jacob’s and MiB’s conflict.
“Ms. Widmore…I think we found it.”
L O S T :Cheers:
TheWatcher
09-13-09, 02:23 PM
Nice post WW...
World Walker
09-14-09, 12:14 AM
Nice post WW...
Thank you for reading it. Season finales take me forever to write about (at least in my style!) :)
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