View Full Version : LOST Hiatus Rewatch #3 (10/28/09-11/03/09)-S3E20:The Man Behind The Curtain
This is the discussion thread for the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch - Season 3 Episode 20, "The Man Behind The Curtain"
Written by : Elizabeth Sarnoff & Drew Goddard
The original thread for this episode can be found here (http://losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34753).
General questions about the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch can be posted in the LOST-TV Hiatus Rewatch thread (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37370).
Episode Description:
Ben remembers arriving on the island with his father and growing up to become the leader of "The Others". Ben takes Locke to see Jacob. Meanwhile, Juliet's secret is exposed to the camp, as is Naomi.
I really enjoyed this episode.
It gave us a heaping of answers, and at the same time (in true Lost fashion) gave us a stockpile of more mysteries.
There's some major gaps in Ben's history, so I'm guessing we can expect another Ben flashback in season 4. :)
Still wondering how the mom got through the fence to Ben's window if she was a smokie havid. Was the fence off?
And what an excellent ending. Our most intriguing lostie, who is just getting to the heart of the island, is shot and falls into a pit of corpses. The camera almost swirls as it pans upward, looking down on our (possibly) dying comrade. BOOM.
LOST
ozchick
01-26-08, 09:18 PM
Still wondering how the mom got through the fence to Ben's window if she was a smokie havid. Was the fence off?
I hadn't thought of this. Hmmm....
I do love this episode, and not just because it invokes the Wizard of Oz. :p This was the first time I actually saw Jacob. The first time around I felt like it was such a gyp, because I didn't see anything at all until the next day when I saw a screencap online.
I also noticed for the first time this time Ben's line to Richard: Birthdays, you do remember those don't you? I didn't get that last time around. There's so much more there, and I want to know what it is.
I love the scene when Locke calls Ben's bluff about going to see Jacob, and then how no one stops him when he's beating on Mikail.
And of course, Ben has daddy issues too. Surprise, surprise, surprise.
No nicknames. :(
Well, the first time we see Richard is about 20 or 30 years ago, and he doesn't look much older (if any older, actually). I'm guessing if you're born on the island you only age so much, I guess youth goes hand-in-hand with those magical healing properties.
My first thought about "you remember those [birthdays], don't you?" was that since Richard didn't age, he needn't worry about birthdays.
It can be easily argued that Ben was referring to the fact that on an island with no calendar it's easy to lose track of, or not care about, birthdays. I personally prefer the former over the latter.
I'm with you, Cranky. Ben asked the question sarcastically. Maybe because Ben has horrible memories of his Dad (who was lovely, BTW) not remembering his own birthdays, but it seemed more of a poke to Richard personally.
So, do we only hear the whispers on the 'other' side of the sonar fence?
Locke was great in this episode. Ben and Locke seemed more like 'Clash of the Titans' to me than indicated in previous episodes. Locke was extremely confident and focused. I like that Ben LOST his composure a couple times in this episode. He was so threatened by Locke that he shot him and left him for dead. Wow! That scene was briliant.
After this viewing I really think the circle around Jacob's shack was placed there to keep him in; which to me, coincides nicely with asking Locke, "Help me."
...I really think the circle around Jacob's shack was placed there to keep him in...
It was.
What an amazing episode. I too never saw Jacob the first time, til coming online. I watched that scene slow this time - that close up eye shot bothers me - it is brown while Ben and Locke have very blue eyes. Hmmm.
Little Ben is a perfect fit as Ben's younger counterpart. Poor thing, I felt sorry for him. But I am not sure why they needed him in a van with his father when they "purged". His Dad was one insignificant person, and they seemed to have killed everyone else pretty easily in the mass gassing. Seems to me they could have just given Ben a gas mask and gone from there. Maybe simply b/c Roger was scheduled to be away and they needed to get rid of everyone at once?
I think Ben needed to kill Roger himself. It was a personal vendetta.
Roger was a mean, hateful man to Ben all of his life. Ben wanted to watch him die. IMO
I'm still having a lot of problems with this episode. Ben was apparently born in the forest outside Portland - he said he was born on the island. That he was the one responsible for recruiting everyone. From what I can make out Richard was the recruiter - he seemed to be the one working from Mittelos and traveling back and forth on the sub.
I guess Richard was one of the hostiles who recruited Ben, thus he was spared when the "purge" occurred, which was presumably instigated by Richard and was put in force to get rid of the Dharma Initiative and bring in the New Order. Ben was then made leader, while Richard presumably continued with his extra curricular activities. And anti-aging !
So Locke has thrown himself in with the Others, although when Mikhail shows up at the same time as Locke turns up with Cooper things take a turn for the worse. Mikhail is not dead because the pylons were not turned up to full strength (so what was with the foam and blood from the mouth ?), and he is not happy to see Locke because he was the one who tried to kill him. Then Locke has his little hissy fit about Ben's my bestest friend, not yours, and beats the crap out of him. Then he and Ben go off to see Jacob.
Meanwhile on the beach Sawyer has returned from his visit to the Black Rock. He hides in the bushes until he sees Sayid and then exposes himself - oops - well, you know what I mean ! Sayid is shocked by Sawyer's appearance - funny, a little later Kate didn't even notice anything wrong. Sawyer tells him it don't matter right now, and shows him the tape recorder.
They go looking for Juliet but of course she's gone off with Jack. Kate comes along and tells them she told Jack about Naomi. Sayid is not happy. How come Kate is turning into such a motor mouth, specially with someone who may have been ... gasp ! ... compromised. So everybody gathers round, including Naomi, who Sayid says they must protect, and Sawyer plays them the tape. Which is the one which Juliet taped in the medical hatch.
Jack, breathing heavily, demands to know where they got it. Sawyer asks why he feels he is in a position to be asking questions. On the other side of the tape is Ben's instructions to mark the tents of the pregnant women. Juliet says she told Jack about this. Sayid asks him why he didn't tell anyone.
"Because I hadn't decided what to do yet." I think you may have just shot yourself in the foot again, Jack.
I guess Richard was one of the hostiles who recruited Ben, thus he was spared when the "purge" occurred, which was presumably instigated by Richard and was put in force to get rid of the Dharma Initiative and bring in the New Order.
I'm under the impression it was Ben who found and ultimately convinced Richard to help him purge the Dharma Initiative. Recall that Ben ran into the jungle as a boy, presumably to escape his father and the Dharma Initiative and discovered Richard. He then tried to convince Richard to let him live with whomever they were and was told he could when he was older.
Ben was apparently born in the forest outside Portland - he said he was born on the island. That he was the one responsible for recruiting everyone. From what I can make out Richard was the recruiter - he seemed to be the one working from Mittelos and traveling back and forth on the sub.
You're right, Ben claimed he was born on the island...
Ben: "I was born here on this Island, I'm one of the last that was. Most of these people you see, I brought them here, so Jacob talks to me, John. He tells me what to do, trusts me."
However, and as you may recall, Ben was in fact brought to the island by his father when Ben was a young boy. Thus, he was not born on the island.
And Yes, Richard is a recruiter for Mittelos Bioscience.... There are spoilers which have more info concerning this.
:yeah: I thought Ben helped orchestrate the purge. Bob Sacamano made a post
about levels of special abilities among island people. Apparently having seen
and spoke to an apparition was a very high level of ability. So naturally Richard
would have wanted to recruit Ben. I'll bet Ben was very helpful during the purge.
Locke was dumped in the hole because Ben was afraid of him. He was able to
hear Jacob. Ben probably realizes there are rumblings of dissatisfaction with
his leadership, and is threatened by Locke. I'll bet most of those who make
a trip to see Jacob don't come back. That why I thought Alex gave Locke the gun.
Thanks Badger - Ben was taken to the island by his father, Roger Linus, aged about 11 years old, who had been recruited by Horace and Olivia Goodspeed, who coincidentally had been present at Ben's birth and Emily's death - believe it ..... or not !
I thought it was Richard who found Ben, because Ben had managed to get through the smokey-proof fence with the help of his dead mother and this was when he found Richard who realized that Ben was the "chosen one" ! Maybe I should go back and watch this again !
I just had a thought, maybe when Ben said he was "born on this island" he was referring to the fact that when Dharma was "purged", his horrible father was dead and he took on a new lease of life. Just a thought !
Thats right Annie, Ben did have those abilities. Hence the fear/dislike of Locke when he found out his abilities and was afraid he would throw him off his throne !
I thought it was Richard who found Ben, because Ben had managed to get through the smokey-proof fence with the help of his dead mother and this was when he found Richard who realized that Ben was the "chosen one" ! Maybe I should go back and watch this again !
Correct. Ben was screaming in the jungle when Richard 'found' him.
I have no idea why Richard was near the vicinity of the fence though. Who knows?
I have no idea why Richard was near the vicinity of the fence though. Who knows?
Maybe Richard also had special abilities and was in psychic communication with Ben, which was why he knew he was special. Maybe I should quite while I'm ahead !
I thought it was Richard who found Ben, because Ben had managed to get through the smokey-proof fence with the help of his dead mother and this was when he found Richard who realized that Ben was the "chosen one" ! Maybe I should go back and watch this again !
I just had a thought, maybe when Ben said he was "born on this island" he was referring to the fact that when Dharma was "purged", his horrible father was dead and he took on a new lease of life. Just a thought !
Since I only saw the original airing my recall is likely more vague than yours. As far as what he really meant by "born" of course calls for speculation. I tend to take what the characters say more literally and on a simplistic level (this is TV after all). However, you may be right in that he may have meant 'born' as being an intellectual and/or spiritual rebirth so to speak, even going so far as to recognize or even celebrate that date as his true birth date.
Ben did escape the Dharma compound through the fence and then ran into Richard in the jungle. He asked Richard if he could live with him and his people and Richard replied when Ben was older he would know what to do. I was under the impression young Ben was trying to escape the confines of Dharma and its institutions, not unlike the rationale many kids have for running away. Simply put, he didn’t like either the discipline and rules Dharma life required or perhaps the lack of them since he hardly knew his father, at least in a positive manner.
While Ben was running through the jungle he ran into who we already knew as Richard and asked if he could live with them, referring to Richard and his people. Hence I said Ben "found" Richard. I didn't mean he was actually looking for him when they met, nor was that impression implied as I recall. I do agree that perhaps Richard knew Ben was 'special' as he was outside the fence and thus initiated contact after seeing and/or hearing Ben.
11Rooster11
01-28-08, 01:45 PM
Maybe Richard also had special abilities and was in psychic communication with Ben, which was why he knew he was special. Maybe I should quite while I'm ahead !
I gotta say that I always had in my mind that Smokie is a tool/weapon. Someone controls Smokie. And it would make sense that the hostiles were the ones that controlled Smokie, since Dharma built their barracks and protected them against Smokie. So perhaps Richard was there because he knew that Ben would follow the visions of his mother (in other words the visions drew Ben to Richard). Ben's abilities were tested, and Richard was there to observe the results.
Or maybe not.
:yeah: I agree and feel the most plausible and certainly the most realistic (I laugh using that word) scenario would be a coverup as you said. However, that's going to send the time travel/parallel universe believers into a real tizzy.
That said, and since they may not want to offend any one group of viewers, they may end up doing something different and combine the two ideas or not offer any solid explanation at all and thus keep us guessing. That way everyone is unhappy together. ;)
:yeah: However, that's going to send the time travel/parallel universe believers into a real tizzy.
Hey, wait...what? :D
Unlocke Locke
01-28-08, 06:29 PM
Well, the first time we see Richard is about 20 or 30 years ago, and he doesn't look much older (if any older, actually). I'm guessing if you're born on the island you only age so much, I guess youth goes hand-in-hand with those magical healing properties.
My first thought about "you remember those [birthdays], don't you?" was that since Richard didn't age, he needn't worry about birthdays.
It can be easily argued that Ben was referring to the fact that on an island with no calendar it's easy to lose track of, or not care about, birthdays. I personally prefer the former over the latter.
If this were true, how does one explain why Ben aged?
Unlocke Locke
01-28-08, 06:37 PM
Badger is correct. Ben went through the fence and found Richard walking through the jungle. This is when Ben meets Richard.
Somehow, I think the folks on the other side of the fence are ghosts, this is the reason for not aging, but then, that doesn't explain how Richard is still with us in mind, body and spirit, unless Richard has a twin.
11Rooster11
01-28-08, 06:54 PM
:yeah: I agree and feel the most plausible and certainly the most realistic (I laugh using that word) scenario would be a coverup as you said. However, that's going to send the time travel/parallel universe believers into a real tizzy.
That said, and since they may not want to offend any one group of viewers, they may end up doing something different and combine the two ideas or not offer any solid explanation at all and thus keep us guessing. That way everyone is unhappy together. ;)
Something tells me you posted this in the wrong thread. Was this supposed to be in "The Brig" regarding my plane crash cover up post?
Here is my recollection. Little Ben is prepared for his trip to the jungle.
He has a bag with him and has a rabbit in there. (Again with the rabbits:))
Ben knows how to turn off the sonic fence and does so. Then he releases
the rabbit and lets it run through the fence to see if it is safe.
He goes into the jungle and starts calling for him Mother. Richard hears him,
I guess, and comes over to Ben and starts talking with him. I actually
remember the dialogue if anyone thinks that is important.
Something tells me you posted this in the wrong thread. Was this supposed to be in "The Brig" regarding my plane crash cover up post?
Well yes indeed. Thanks for pointing that out. :)
<<--Occasionally pushes the wrong button. :eek:
Somehow, I think the folks on the other side of the fence are ghosts, this is the reason for not aging, but then, that doesn't explain how Richard is still with us in mind, body and spirit, unless Richard has a twin.
Maybe that Richard was a manifestation created by (or was) Smoky. It's becoming more difficult to determine who and what is real at times.
The same can be said for what we see on LOST. ;)
11Rooster11
01-28-08, 07:46 PM
Somehow, I think the folks on the other side of the fence are ghosts, this is the reason for not aging, but then, that doesn't explain how Richard is still with us in mind, body and spirit, unless Richard has a twin.
Reading this kinda blew my mind. Makes me wonder if Ben is alive (thus capable of aging and making Birthdays meaningful) and the other others aren't. Did drinking the orange juice actually kill Juliet? Kind of a cross between the Matrix and The Sixth Sense. They may not know they're dead.
Don't know if I can buy into it but just another idea to think about.
200th post!!! :celebrate
The idea of them being dead but not knowing they're dead, i.e. ghosts, borders on the "P theory" which as we know is not true.
I'm more receptive to the idea of certain individuals, at least at certain times, being manifestations of Smoky, for example: both Yemi and Dave, in addition to the black horse. Also, and having been discussed recently, possibly even Cooper, at least on the island.
Of course, one can poke holes in facets of that idea as well. For instance, the Richard that Ben saw as kid looked identical to the Richard we saw off the island many years later. That lends at least some credence to the anti-aging 'theory' and fits with other things we know about the 'Others' that one is forbidden to detail here.
Hollysasquatch
01-28-08, 08:38 PM
This was quite an interesting episode. I loved seeing a flashback from Ben, finally. In a way, I felt sorry for him. It seems that the island is possibly a part of why he is so psychotic now. I don't think it's only due to his upbringing, though I'm sure that helped.
11Rooster11
01-28-08, 08:50 PM
The idea of them being dead but not knowing they're dead, i.e. ghosts, borders on the "P theory" which as we know is not true.
Well you are right about that.
Although I thought that they confirmed that the Losties were alive. I don't think that we even knew Richard when those statements were made. So the others may be different.
Let me also be clear that I'm not arguing for what I said in my earlier post, just playing devil's advocate and thinking on my keyboard.
Locke 'n' Load
01-28-08, 09:52 PM
200th post!!! :celebrate
Congratulations, Rooster!
:congrats::Cheers:
:Cheers::congrats:
If this were true, how does one explain why Ben aged?
Because he wasn't born on the island.
Someone, somewhere after this episode originally aired mentioned The Manitou. I sort of skimmed over the post, and thought it was just another "Lost is actually this [insert title of classic book/movie]"
Well, the name of that movie stuck with me so I rented the thing. It's not that great; has some good parts, has some bad parts, maybe the books better. I don't know.
What I did notice, though, was that whoever originally mentioned The Manitou, might have been pretty darn close to figuring out Jacob.
According to Native American lore, the Manitou is the spirit of anything that is living. I don't really remember much of the movie, but some bad Manitou spirit starts growing on a woman (literally, as a little womb/tumor on her back...okay, so, so far it doesn't anything like Jacob). Anyway, after the manitou births itself from her tumor thingy, our heroes try to keep it trapped in the hospital. How do you trap a Manitou? You put a dirt ring around it. (Or maybe it was some kind of ash...) They think the Manitou will weaken because it will have nothing to feed of off (no other living things) but then someone realizes that even electronics have 'Manitou' and that the trapped Manitou is feeding off of this energy (hmmm, what happened in the shack when Locke used the flashlight?)
I think there were a couple of other little things, and I really wish I'd taken notes, but, yeah, I can definitely see how The Manitou inspired or has influence on the Jacob storyline.
Cranky - I actually read that book, years ago ! I used to read heaps of horror etc. and I remember "The Manitou" quite well. The author's surname was Masterston or something, and I think he wrote a sequel !
I think its quite possible that this was an influence - they seem to be big Stephen King fans, possibly Dean R. Koontz so why not some of the lesser known horror type writers. I've often thought to myself "now where have I seen that before" when I've been watching "Lost".
Dean Koontz "The Watcher" fitted in well with Vincent and The Monster !
I hear great things about the Watcher, but I'm still unsure if I want to pick up a novel that has a talking dog.
I hear great things about the Watcher, but I'm still unsure if I want to pick up a novel that has a talking dog.
Its OK, the dog doesn't physically talk - that would be too much ! :rolleyez: But he does understand and eventually finds a way to communicate with his "man" by spelling out letters. If you are a dog lover you will love this book - Dean Koontz appears to have a special love for dogs. It might be worth a try anyway !:)
Cranky - I actually read that book, years ago ! I used to read heaps of horror etc. and I remember "The Manitou" quite well. The author's surname was Masterston or something, and I think he wrote a sequel !
That would be Graham Masterton. He later wrote "Revenge of the Manitou" as well.
Cranky, the movie was based on the book and starred Tony Curtis.
Thanks Badger - Its all coming back to me now ! My friends used to question my taste in literature - they'd be sighing over their romance and I'd be stuck into my horror !
I love romance novels, preferably French romance novels set in the Renaissance period such as Le Morte d'Athur, as well as Renaissance poetry. For example, Ludovico Ariosto's Orlando furioso and Torquato Tasso's Gerusalemme Liberata and other sixteenth-century literary works. All are quite lovely mind you. :D
Would you like to join my book club? And would you care for a cup of tea? ;)
Locke 'n' Load
01-29-08, 07:28 PM
Would you like to join my book club? And would you care for a cup of tea? ;)
Just don't burn the muffins! :D
I'm not a huge Dean Koontz fan, but The Watcher is one of my all time favorite books. It is great.
Just don't burn the muffins! :D
Hi Locke 'n' Load - nice to see you again. I always burn muffins, cakes, whatever - you name it .......... :mad:
I'm not a huge Dean Koontz fan, but The Watcher is one of my all time favorite books. It is great.
I know we've had this conversation before - I'm going to have to read this book again !:vincent: :)
I love romance novels, preferably French romance novels set in the Renaissance period such as Le Morte d'Athur
Absolutely detest that book.
Sorry, but I hated reading it.
Absolutely detest that book.
Sorry, but I hated reading it.
Glad I'm not the only low-brow around ! Sorry Cranky - I didn't mean to drag you down to my level ! :D
Oh boy I really do not like Juliet's character. I like Jack all the more less. I didn't catch the first time that when Ben's mother and father were on the side of the highway after she gave birth that it was Horace Goodspeed and his wife in the sports car. Wasn't that convenient or was it? Was Horace's wife the same actress who played young Emily, who gave birth to Locke? Aiye! Overload. lol
Are Roger and Emily on the island when Ben is born ? Just because the sign says "Portland 32" doesn't mean it is ! Ben states that he was born on the island - well maybe he was. The more I hear about the comings and goings of these people, the more I wonder where this island actually is.
Ben - "You do remember birthdays, don't you, Richard ?" Does that mean Richard is really really old, or ..... well, I don't know !
Ben needed to kill Roger for closure. It didn't seem to worry him too much, but he is still very insecure and jealous. So how come he managed to manipulate Sawyer, via Locke into killing Cooper ? To make Locke look like a lesser man ? Ben killed his father and left him in the Dharma van - he had no need to display the man he had killed. Locke on the other hand managed to get Sawyer to kill Cooper but then paraded his daddy's body around for everyone else to witness..... he let them assume that he had done it himself, in order to save face.
I think Jack is losing it - its all getting too much for him. He is losing control over the losties. No one trusts him any more. Sawyer and Sayid have ganged up on him, Kate is being a pain in the neck, and she is also losing the trust of her friends due to her slavish adoration of Jack. But somehow Jack always manages to put one of his "plans" into action, no matter what everyone else thinks.
Locke seemed to have a new found confidence this epi. Even to the extent of beating poor old Mikhael to a bloody pulp. How can he be sure that Sawyer won't spill the beans about Cooper - well, no, Sawyer has gained no peace from it and is probably not ready to 'fess up. If he was to tell anyone I think it would be Sayid, Sayid would understand. Maybe Hurley. Jack, no way. Kate, absolutely no way. So he just goes about the task in hand in a workmanlike way - in other words trying to prevent Jack from making another mistake.
Randy Nations
09-15-08, 05:30 PM
Oh boy I really do not like Juliet's character. I like Jack all the more less. I didn't catch the first time that when Ben's mother and father were on the side of the highway after she gave birth that it was Horace Goodspeed and his wife in the sports car. Wasn't that convenient or was it? Was Horace's wife the same actress who played young Emily, who gave birth to Locke? Aiye! Overload. lol
I always assumed that Horace and Roger stayed in touch after Ben's birth. And that is how Horace came to bring Roger to the island...to help him out. And, the actress who played Horace's wife is Samantha Mathis (she was in the Winona Ryder remake of Little Women and Broken Arrow with Travolta and Slater) and she wasn't the same woman who played Locke's young, unwed mommy. And I am overloaded too! I think Horace and Olivia will play a much bigger part later on, and I have already speculated that they may be the parents of Charlotte.
Randy Nations
09-15-08, 05:39 PM
Are Roger and Emily on the island when Ben is born ? Just because the sign says "Portland 32" doesn't mean it is ! Ben states that he was born on the island - well maybe he was. The more I hear about the comings and goings of these people, the more I wonder where this island actually is.
You know, I just made the connection between that sign and Mittelos Science being located in Portland. So, Horace and Olivia were living/travelling in the Portland area, which happens to be where Mittelos Science is located. This is an interesting connection between people who, as far as we know, are true Dharma people and Richard, an "other" connected with Mittelos Science.
{I am off track here but, I've wondered in the past if Richard was an original Dharma guy who was exiled for doing something he wasn't supposed to do with the "island's special properties".}
And, as far as Ben being born on the island, interesting thought about maybe they're on the island in this roadside scene. Anything is possible these days! But, I always thought that Ben meant he was "born on the island" because that is where he first met his mother and spoke to her.
Are Roger and Emily on the island when Ben is born ? Just because the sign says "Portland 32" doesn't mean it is ! Ben states that he was born on the island - well maybe he was. The more I hear about the comings and goings of these people, the more I wonder where this island actually is.
From The Man Behind the Curtain
BEN: You know, John, you're not wrong, some of the things I've told you, some of the things I've told everybody, are simply not true.
LOCKE: Like what?
BEN: Well, for starters, I wasn't born on this island.
LOCKE: Then where did you come from?
BEN: That's what I wanna show you.
Ben says later he wasn't born on the island. This is was why I was surprised with Horace Goodspeed. :)
AChristianShephard
09-15-08, 08:56 PM
I wonder if Ben was 'destined' to end up on the island, just like Locke.
Maybe Horace was keeping an eye on things, the same way Richard kept an eye on newly born Locke.
I'd always got the impression that Richard knew to wait for young Ben escaping from Smokies barrier.
So if Ben had no idea who Locke was, and no idea why he is special, yet Richard was at Locke's birth, then who the hell is Richard working for?
I am so so so confused right now that i don't really know what to think or say anymore haha
Is Richard the only islander who doesn't seem to have to awnser directly to anybody? He does do some of Bens bidding but he seems to be head 'other' in a kind of representative' manner. Kind of like forman, or union head haha
Ben says Locke has some kinda strange communion with the island and the 'others' have come to the conclusion that he is very very special based on his healed spinal injuries, but Richard has known about this from the start.
Richard has knowledge ad resources that Ben doesnt know about and doesnt know that exist. So who's the man here?
So the island stoped protecting Bens spine and put its attention on Locke when he crash landed on the scene.
So was it Richard who planned out all the co-incidences that got these peeps on the plane? In conjunction with Abbadon?
YAY FOR LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ben being born on the island, one time he says he was born on it, now he says he wasn't.
BEN: You know, John, you're not wrong, some of the things I've told you, some of the things I've told everybody, are simply not true. Well golly gosh, who would have thought it, Dew ?
I said in the previous rewatch that Ben saying he was born on the island could mean that until he came to the island his life had been pretty meaningless, never having had a mother, and his father being such a pig - but coming to the island had given his life new meaning. It was like being re-born.
I'm with you being confused ACS ! Ben, Locke, Richard, Widmore, the Black Rock, Mittelos, Dharma, the original "peacenicks" - yes, I know there's a connection between all these people, but I can't get it ! I keep trying to make some sense of it all but my brain lets me down !
Richard is really intriguing - where the hell did he come from ? I hope we see a lot more of him in S4 & 5. It is clear that he had a lot to do with the orchestration of who got on the plane. *Sigh*.
AChristianShephard
09-16-08, 12:05 PM
You'd of thought after 4seasons of a show that they would of let something slip by accident by now, even a pointer, or a solid thoery, but nope, nothing, nada, zilch haha.
Hollysasquatch
09-17-08, 06:05 PM
Crap, I'd be happy to know what the hell the 4 toed statue means, if nothing else. That's no too much to ask.
It's OK Holly - its actually Richard. He's been around for a long time, you know !
Hollysasquatch
09-18-08, 01:57 PM
I do suspect that. But I want them to confirm.
It would be nice to get some answers to anything, Holly !
"It would be nice to get ........" Sorry - just bein' facetious, Zia !
It would be nice to get some answers to anything, Holly !
You can say that again. Wait. What? ;)
I'm in one of those moods ! Just listening to America - "A Horse with no Name" etc. What fantastic harmony. Before that it was Cat Stevens. I love the mouldy oldies !
AChristianShephard
09-20-08, 06:17 PM
Mouldy oldies haha, that's a new one on me. :Cheers:
I'm glad you changed the topic pronto there, thought i was in for another page of talk about your washing machines, oh yes, i went there :Headbang:
LOST Hiatus Rewatch:
Week 23
Weds., October 28th-November 03, 2009
S3:E20: The Man Behind The Curtain
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u34/zia29112/LOST%20Stuff/300px-Lost-season1.jpg
World Walker
10-31-09, 01:11 AM
This is one of my favorite episodes ever. There were at least two jaw-dropping moments I remember quite clearly. One was the whole cabin scene and the other was Locke getting shot by Ben at the pit and left for dead. At this point in time, I had started to delve into spoilers (what a bad, bad person I am!) to see what was coming next. The cool thing about the spoilers for this particular episode was that they revealed the plot more or less minus the two scenes I mentioned above. I remember distinctly that the source of the spoilers said those moments were too good to reveal. That’s the way spoilers should be done, because I learned a bit about the plot, but it didn’t ruin the scenes that really knocked my socks off.
This is our first Ben centric and since Desmond got a flashback in Season Two’s finale, I was surprised that Ben didn’t get the finale episode in Season Three. There was really no reason for me to expect his flashback would be in the finale, but Desmond’s history being revealed in Season Two’s finale set up a false precedent in my mind. Still, what we got in this regular length episode was a very intriguing history lesson that revealed many secrets about the Others, the Dharma Initiative and the simple fact that Ben is a bigger liar than we even realized.
Hey, I totally forgot the first time we saw Horace he had short hair. He really looks a lot different. In fact, this is our first Horace appearance on the show. He’ll pop up again during Season Four in a dream and we’ll see him for real during the seventies in Season Five.
My friends who hadn’t been spoiled about the episode centric literally cheered when the flashback was revealed to be Ben’s. :D
Ben: “You do remember birthdays, don’t you, Richard?” – This is the first line that indicates Richard’s seemingly immortal nature. Later in the episode, we see him at seemingly the same age when Ben is a child.
Locke’s appearance at the camp was not something Ben was expecting at all judging by the look on his face. Now he’s been backed into a corner and the only way out is to play along with Locke until he can figure out a way to defuse the threat he poses. His idea will be to take Locke to an empty cabin and pretend that the Other’s true leader, Jacob, is there. When Locke doesn’t see him (and how can he since Ben is simply acting), Ben will claim that he is too limited to see. This will again play on Locke’s feelings of inadequacy, leading him back to self-doubt. This doesn’t go quite to plan, because as we know, there really is something in that cabin.
Ben got very defensive when Locke suggested that he would go and ask Richard to bring him to Jacob. Now we know why: because Ben has never met Jacob before and knows Richard is the only Other who seemingly has access to him. The fact that Ben, leader of the Others, has never seen Jacob bothers him very much.
Ben’s first flashback reveals his claim “to have been born on the Island” that we’ve heard many times is a load of crap. This makes Ben a bigger liar than some us originally thought (though some of you probably didn’t trust a single word out of his mouth and the reveal came as no surprise).
Horace comments that Ben will say something when he’s got something to say. This mirrors Spirit Tent Boone telling John that he’ll get his voice back when he has something worth saying. There was also a third instance of this same idea, but I can’t quite remember what it was.
We get deliciously ironic confirmation that Roger Linus is also Roger Workman, the skeleton we saw back in Tricia Tanaka is Dead. Roger took his job as Work Man far less graciously than Jack did in Season Five. When he arrived on the Island, Roger seemed to be thankful to Horace for giving him this opportunity. After he got his work assignment, he grew very resentful, developing a rather large chip on his shoulder. He’s already on his way to becoming the bitter man we saw in Season Five.
Does anyone else think Mikhail runs very awkwardly? :rotfl:
Ben knew about the freighter ahead of time, but he was caught off guard when Mikhail informed him about Naomi and her satellite phone. He probably wasn’t expecting one of the freighter people to reach, much less find, the Island so soon.
None of the Others responded to Ben’s command to stop Locke from beating Mikhail, because it seemed to me like Locke (Ben’s possible successor in their eyes) was asserting his dominance. I also believe they were a little pissed (all except Richard, who knows better) that Ben would take an outsider to see Jacob when none of them, actual Others, have ever seen him. Ben’s credibility plummeted, in other words.
Ironically, Locke would have been safer if Alex hadn’t given him that gun. The look of betrayal on Ben’s face was absolutely priceless after Alex nastily wished him a happy birthday. :nanabobo:
We get confirmation that there was a volcano on the Island. I wonder if it will erupt in Season Six or if it will be a dropped thread.
The flashbacks with Ben as a child take place in 1973. We see what appears to be an attack on the barracks during Ben’s volcanic eruption class. Apparently, the truce between the Hostiles and the Others has not occurred yet. When our Losties end up in 1974 after Locke turns the wheel, the truce is already in place. Sometime between 1973 and 1974, the truce is formed. Since Dharma was only founded in 1970, we’re looking at the very early days of the Initiative. :hmm:
The vision of Ben’s mother manifests exactly as she appeared in Ben’s photograph. This can lead one to assume the images were somehow extracted from Ben’s mind, although it’s doubtful Smokey had a chance to scan him since he never went outside the barracks until later.
Locke’s grin at Mikhail was rather fiendish when they left camp. Since he was eating fruit while he grinned, it reminded me a bit of Locke smiling at Kate with a mouth full of orange during the pilot.
Annie giving Ben the doll: “Now we never have to be away from each other.” – This quote suggests to me that Annie was leaving the Island. Furthermore, we have no mention or sighting of Annie when the Losties occupy Dharma 1974-1977. My guess is that Annie had to leave and Ben never saw her again. Yeah I know, not very intriguing, but I believe most fans have blown her character’s importance way out of proportion. Annie’s purpose in this episode is primarily to show us a more sensitive and vulnerable side to Ben.
Roger Linus: “Kinda hard to celebrate on the day you killed your mom.” – Now this is quite possibly the worst thing you could say to a child. How horrible! It’s no wonder, among other things, why Ben turned out the way he did. :mad:
Ben’s mother appears right outside the pylons, warns him to stay where he is and tells him it’s not time yet. Among a lot of other visions we’ve seen, this manifestation of Ben’s mother seems to be steering Ben in a specific direction within a specific timeframe. We hear “not yet” a lot on this show and we see how integral the timing can be on a lot of these rare events. Many events could have gone differently if the timing wasn’t just right. I get the sense that these manifestations are purposely steering these characters on a specific course. What we don’t know is who or what is behind these subtle manipulations.
Ben carefully steps over the ash circle on his way to the cabin. This suggests he might know what it is used for, but it could simply be part of his act. We really need more information about that place. How did he know to go there? Did he simply know of a creepy old cabin (maybe he knew it belonged to Horace as a retreat) and based his lie about Jacob around it? That’s certainly ironic considering the cabin’s apparent ability to attract spooks. :eyebrow:
Ben using the bunny to cross the pylons first is an early indication that he will use others for his own personal gain. Earlier in the season, Ben very callously used a bunny to convince Sawyer that the Others had put a pacemaker in him.
Richard, in a complete state of disarray the likes of which we never see from him again, appears behind Ben right after a myriad of whispers. This is one of those times I think the producers didn’t quite know where they were going with Richard, because we never saw him look like that ever again. He was clean-cut back in the fifties and he looked exactly the same, down to maybe even the same shirt, in 1974-1977. The only explanation TPTB could have beside continuity error is Richard simply wanting to keep the Dharma Initiative fooled that the Hostiles are unwashed hillbillies, the same con the Others pulled on the Losties in Season Two.
This is our very first view of the creepy cabin (I used to call it Jacob’s Cabin, but I really can’t be sure who was in there anymore).
Benjamin Linus put on quite the convincing show with Locke in that cabin. He really had me fooled and I was shocked to learn he had never met Jacob in The Incident. Ben really might’ve made a fine actor. :nanabobo:
Ben to Locke: “I’m sorry you’re too limited to see.” – Ben is using this opportunity to plant a seed of doubt in Locke’s mind. Ben’s success in retaining his position as leader depends greatly on whether or not Locke will doubt himself.
Creepy voice: “Help me.” – Now that was one of those jaw-dropping moments I mentioned. Things got steadily crazier after the disembodied voice when everything began flying around the room. Then we saw the lantern tip over and start a fire on the floor which randomly vanished. Whatever force was in that room was powerful enough to throw things around, break windows, and push Ben away from the chair. We even got a glimpse of a silhouette for a few seconds. I completely missed it on my first viewing of the episode and nearly jumped out of my chair the second time. The eye turning from Ben to look at Locke was a good touch of creepy. I don’t blame Locke for bolting one bit; I would’ve been right behind him! :yikes:
Locke asks Ben what that was in the cabin and Ben says it was Jacob. With new information from The Incident, I’m not so sure about that. First of all, Ben admitted that he never met Jacob before in Season Five, so everything in the cabin we saw was an act up to the point where objects began to fly around the room. At very best, Ben’s assertion that it was Jacob is only a guess. Secondly, Jacob looked nothing like the silhouette we saw in the cabin. I understand that Mark Pellegrino hadn’t been cast yet for the part, but you think TPTB would’ve tried a little harder to make the character and the silhouette match if they were truly the same person. Even though MiB’s appearance doesn’t quite match the silhouette either, I believe he’s a much closer fit, especially if MiB had long hair. Thirdly, the voice said, “Help me,” to Locke. What does Locke do? He ends up inadvertently helping MiB in his plot to end Jacob’s existence. Everything Locke has done played directly into what we saw at the end of Season Five. Therefore, with many other reasons it would take forever to scribe, I am of the opinion that the silhouette in the cabin belonged to MiB. :hmm:
Hearing Shambala and seeing Ben and Roger driving in that Dharma van puts a more sinister spin on the light-hearted antics of Tricia Tanaka is Dead.
The scene depicting Ben committing patricide followed by the purge were some of the most memorable in this show’s history. The way the camera focuses in on Ben’s eyes behind the gasmask as his father thrashes about uselessly is very poignant. Then we see all the bodies lying about the barracks and Ben walks by every one until he comes to Horace, gently closing his eyes. These scenes were dark and surprising because I never thought TPTB would let us see the purge as early as Season Three. The music was also fantastic. :thumbs_up
One of the bodies in the pit had a bullet hole in its skull. It appears that not all Dharma personnel were wiped out during the gassing. It seems that the Others had to hunt down the remnants who survived.
Ben: “I was one of the people smart enough not to end up in that ditch.” – This gives us an indication that Ben wasn’t the only person who defected from Dharma. We know that Ethan came from Dharma as well and somehow ended up with the Others. I’m willing to bet Amy, Ethan’s mother and Horace’s wife, was another. Perhaps we’ll have more information about other defectors next season.
That was a massively surprising ending with Ben shooting Locke and leaving him for dead in the ditch. I think my mouth was gaping open for minutes after that scene. The surprise factor was right up there with Michael shooting Libby and Ana Lucia. :omg:
No matter how many times I watch this episode, it never gets old. Now, with what we know from Season Five, any scene with Ben talking about Jacob, along with the visit to the cabin, takes on a whole new meaning. There are a lot of possibilities and I suppose we’ll find out the truth in the final season. :Cheers:
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