Did Claire have a "time flash"? [Archive]

GardenMom

04-10-08, 07:11 AM

Hmmm, this could be an important bit of repeated dialogue. Desmond in “The Constant” is very similar to Claire in S1’s - "Homecoming":

S4 - The Constant
DESMOND: Alright, where am I?
KEAMY: Alright, just take it easy.
OMAR: Whoa.
DESMOND: Alright, who are you people?
OMAR: Whoa, buddy. Calm down.
DESMOND: What am I doing here? who are you people?
SAYID: My friend is disoriented!
DESMOND: I'm not your friend! I don't know you! I don't know you!
KEAMY: When did he start doing this?
FRANK: He was fine when we took off. When we hit some weather...Hey, Faraday told me as long as I stayed on the vector --
[KEAMY motions for him to stay quiet. He and OMAR step toward DESMOND, but are blocked by SAYID.]
KEAMY: What's your name, my friend?
SAYID: Sayid.
KEAMY: Okay, Sayid. Look, we're going to take your buddy down to the sick bay, okay.
SAYID: I'm going with you.
KEAMY: Let a doctor look at him first, then you can come down. You got my word on that, okay?
[SAYID, after some time, nods. KEAMY and OMAR approach DESMOND.]
OMAR: Alright.
DESMOND: Listen, listen. This is a mistake, alright?
OMAR: Settle down.
DESMOND: I don't know these people.
OMAR: I understand.
DESMOND: No, this is wrong! I'm not supposed to be -

S1 - Homecoming
LOCKE: Doctor!
CHARLIE: Claire?
MICHAEL: Is she alive?
WALT: What happened?
CHARLIE: Is she alright?
JACK [now carrying Claire]: Where did you find her?
LOCKE: About a mile north. We were looking for the dog.
JACK: Was she conscious?
LOCKE: She collapsed in my arms.
CHARLIE: Did she say anything?
HURLEY: Charlie, man, is she injured?
WALT: Is she alright?
JACK: Everybody needs to back off, okay? Just give her some air. [Jack wipes Claire's brow with a cloth]. Claire, can you hear me? Wake up now. Hey, Claire, Claire. Wake up now. [Claire opens her eyes]. Hey.
[Claire screams and scrambles away.]
JACK: Claire? It's okay. It's okay.
CHARLIE: Claire. You're safe.
CLAIRE: Who are you? Who are you? Who are you people?
[Shot of jungle, then of Claire at the caves]
CLAIRE: I don't understand. I don't know any Ethan. I don't remember. I don't remember any of you. I don't remember any of this.
CHARLIE: What do you remember?
CLAIRE: Um, I was on a plane flying to LA from Sydney.
JACK: Claire, we were all on that plane. It crashed here on this island. That was almost a month ago.
CLAIRE: No, I'm, I'm due.
JACK: Your baby's fine. He's kicking, everything's normal. Okay?
CLAIRE: Well, if it's been almost a month then why hasn't somebody come to get us?

Could Claire's amnesia after being kidnapped by Ethan actually have been a time flash like Desmond? I’m not sure how to wrap my head around this. Your thoughts please!

LightSide/DarkSide

04-10-08, 08:08 AM

Oh my.

Green Arrow

04-10-08, 08:15 AM

Wow.

Never thought of it, but could be. I was always wondering why she lost her memory. So, she's still alive. So that means she must have found her constant?

Assuming your theroy is correct :D

lacenaire

04-10-08, 08:46 AM

They both have in common using this...

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/705/cr4815162342aq2.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cr4815162342aq2.jpg)http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/2001/desmondinjectionxg8.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=desmondinjectionxg8.jpg)http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8371/800pxstaffinjectionqa8.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=800pxstaffinjectionqa8.jpg)

Green Arrow

04-10-08, 09:46 AM

lacenaire

04-10-08, 01:18 PM

Charlie gave her the syringe and the vials.
I don't know if she's using them.
.

perdido no espaço

04-10-08, 04:25 PM

Perhaps Aaaron was/is her constant? Does the constant necessarily need to be a person and if so does it matter that the person is not born yet?

Ida Monster

04-10-08, 05:51 PM

Claire was also chloroformed by Alex, dragged out into the jungle, where she was found by Danielle Rousseau and quickly knocked out by a gun butt. This is more likely the cause for her disorientation and memory loss.

LightSide/DarkSide

04-10-08, 07:43 PM

Desmond didn't seem to need a constant for his first trip. Only when he passed through the anomaly did he need one. Maybe Claire does get on the helicopter with Aaron but she can't find a constant and so she dies when she passes through the storm.

Joenet

04-10-08, 08:39 PM

Great Googly Moogly. You might have something there.

I've always wondered why the Medical Hatch looked so clean and newish when Claire was having her flash back, and then when Kate went there with Daniel, not much later than after Claire had returned, it looked like it had been abandoned for several years. With the lights hanging down and the paint faded where the animal pictures were hanging. I couldn't make a connection to why this was like that. (I think this has been discussed here a while back.)

So it makes some sense now, maybe, that maybe Claire did time flash. She says "No, I'm, I'm due." But then the pregnancy timing doesn't make sense. :hammersel

GardenMom

04-10-08, 08:50 PM

Thanks for the interesting responses everyone! I'm reading old transcripts and checking timelines to try and get a handle on this idea - but I'm becoming more and more convinced she did flash around. I'll be back later with a coherant (hopefully) response.

J_C

04-10-08, 09:39 PM

I had always thought that that her seeming amnesia was an after affect of the drink (that she complained was sour) that Ethan had given her. My thought was that this drink was being constantly given to her for it's perhaps narcotic qualities.

Then her memory seemingly was returned after Libby's hypnotherapy; memories 'augmented' perhaps by the drugged liquid. Her memories seemed contemporary, containing a 16/17 year old Alex.

LightSide/DarkSide

04-10-08, 10:57 PM

divinesynder

04-11-08, 01:07 AM

Perhaps they exposed her to radiation while in the Staff?

I wonder if all of this could tie in to her diary entries? She seemed to be having dreams similar to Boone's trip or Locke's sweat lodge experience. It's too bad TPTB have under used her character. There's a lot of potential there.

Amen to that. For a main character we still don't know much about Claire. Maybe Claire did have a flash or something. But weren't there side effects and if something wasn't done you could die?

wilson

04-11-08, 04:22 AM

I've always wondered why the Medical Hatch looked so clean and newish when Claire was having her flash back, and then when Kate went there with Daniel, not much later than after Claire had returned, it looked like it had been abandoned for several years. With the lights hanging down and the paint faded where the animal pictures were hanging.

Yes! I have always wondered this as well.

I'm liking this idea!

korunn chalsad

04-13-08, 05:41 PM

I just rewatched Maternity Leave -- first off, that was a great episode IMHO!

I agree that the similarities between Claire's flashes and Desmond's flashes are there -- it could just be stylistic, but maybe not :D

As for the amnesia/dialogue similarity (from "Homecoming"), I find it problematic -- wouldn't that mean that she was "unstuck in time" when they found her? If that was the case, wouldn't there be periods where she goes comatose? Also, how did her memory return? There was no obvious moment as in the Constant.

If there is any time travel here, things seem to be switched around from Desmond's case. Claire fades out immediately after seeing her flashes, rather than back and forth during an amnesiac episode. Desmond is still present immediately after his future flashes, but is unstuck when he doesn't remember the present/immediate past.

Still, I think there are some other potential clues (in addition to the dilapidated Staff station):
- Libby's cryptic response to Claire's request that she help her get past her memory block:
"it depends on what you want to remember"
In light of Libby's prior contact with Desmond and presence at Santa Clara, this could be an underhanded reference to some events pre-crash.
- there is a 180-degree pan when Ethan and Claire are sitting on the log outside, showing (present-time) Claire standing there watching.
- the title (Maternity Leave) most directly refers to the time spent away in the medical hatch. But it could suggest Claire leaving the present to (re)experience that time (artistic license aside, mat leave happens after the baby is born).

The more direct interpretation is that Claire was just vividly reliving her experience as she gets her memory back, rather than becoming unstuck. I think that's probably right. Still, they're definitely playing with similar themes of time and memory here. Claire's flashbacks have this element of being unbound to any specific time period (presumably due to the drug-induced amnesia). Ethan talks to her about flying at first, as if it is pre-crash. The mobile in the baby room has Oceanic planes on it, and Claire does ogle at them but it doesn't obviously trigger any memory of a flight. In the next flash Claire mentions Charlie (she's obviously still disoriented but has given the first indication that this is post-crash). The last flash outside with Ethan carries that unsettling reference to "good family", again recalling her pre-flight situation.

Regardless, it would be neat if the two experiences (Claire's and Desmond's) are interwoven in some way - but in general there's a lot of rich stuff in the previous seasons that could be brought back for some real AHA moments!

GardenMom

04-13-08, 07:59 PM

As for the amnesia/dialogue similarity (from "Homecoming"), I find it problematic -- wouldn't that mean that she was "unstuck in time" when they found her? If that was the case, wouldn't there be periods where she goes comatose? Also, how did her memory return? There was no obvious moment as in the Constant.

She was conscious when Locke found her. She went unconscious when she collapsed in his arms and remained unconscious until she came to with Jack at the caves. So she was "out of it" for a good chunk of time.

How did her memory return? I think she made contact with her anchor - her constant...Charlie.

Still, I think there are some other potential clues (in addition to the dilapidated Staff station):
- Libby's cryptic response to Claire's request that she help her get past her memory block:
"it depends on what you want to remember"
In light of Libby's prior contact with Desmond and presence at Santa Clara, this could be an underhanded reference to some events pre-crash.

And Claire's conversation with Libby includes this:
We see a series of memory flashes again, and see Claire back on the beach. She screams and scrambles to a standing position.]
LIBBY: It's okay, you're alright. It's okay. It's okay.
CLAIRE: It was Ethan. I saw Ethan. I saw him. It was Ethan.
LIBBY: Claire, it's okay.
CLAIRE: No, it's not!
LIBBY: You're alright.
CLAIRE: No, I'm not alright. It was Ethan.
KATE [entering]: What happened?
LIBBY: I don't know.
KATE: What did you do?!
LIBBY: Nothing, she just...
CLAIRE: Do it again. Do it again!!
LIBBY: No, Claire. You are screaming...
CLAIRE: I remembered, okay. I saw Ethan. He was there and he was giving me an exam.

"Nothing, she just..." - just WHAT? Went unconscious? Started screaming?

"Do it again!!" mirrors Desmond picking up Dr. Ray's flashlight and desperately shining it into his own eyes.

- there is a 180-degree pan when Ethan and Claire are sitting on the log outside, showing (present-time) Claire standing there watching.

Yes, this is very odd to see Claire watching herself. Is it TPTB's method of showing us that Claire is seeing herself at a different point in her timeline? Did Desmond also "see himself" saving Charlie all the different times?

Joenet

04-14-08, 12:35 AM

...

And Claire's conversation with Libby includes this:

"Nothing, she just..." - just WHAT? Went unconscious? Started screaming?

"Do it again!!" mirrors Desmond picking up Dr. Ray's flashlight and desperately shining it into his own eyes.

...
Holy Flashback Batman!!! Awesome connection.

Hockey Mask

04-14-08, 12:55 AM

I doubt it. I seriously doubt it.

But...

I hope so. I seriously hope so.

LightSide/DarkSide

04-14-08, 03:24 AM

This thread just gets better and better. :Cheers: I love the possibilities here.

There's something with this whole scenario that I'm missing. Why was it that Ethan took Claire to begin with? Didn't Tom question Ethan about that very thing?

rknorton91

04-14-08, 04:38 AM

Wow outstanding thread

GardenMom

04-14-08, 06:42 AM

There's something with this whole scenario that I'm missing. Why was it that Ethan took Claire to begin with? Didn't Tom question Ethan about that very thing?

Claire had moved to the caves with Jack and a bunch of others. She had two "nightmares".

The first was when we saw a shot of her eye opening, then she got out of bed, walked into the jungle and saw Locke with the tarot cards and his black/white eyes. She sticks her hands in the crib searching through the blankets and ends up sticking her hands in a pool of blood. She starts screaming. Jack and Charlie come to her rescue, and they conclude she was sleepwalking. She has blood on her hands, but Jack says it's because she dug her own fingernails into the palms of her hands. When Jack calls her experience a vivid nightmare, Claire responds with the cryptic "Who says it was a nightmare?" If it wasn't for creepy-eyed Locke, I'd speculate that she was perhaps in a time-flash. But because Locke is so surreal, it does seem like more of a prophetic dream.

The second "nightmare" was shortly thereafter, when she woke up screaming because she had been attacked and injected with a needle. Now we know this second incident actually occurred because Ethan was giving her the amber-colored injections. Jack says he can find no needle mark on her and concludes it is another nightmare (Why no mark? Rapid healing?) Jack declares Claire is due to give birth in a week or two, and suggests a sedative so she stays calm. She gets mad that he won't believe her, and tramps off into the jungle to return to the beach camp.

Charlie tags along to carry her bag. As they walk along, Claire experiences labor contractions. Ethan shows up (was he following her?) and Charlie tells him to run and get Jack. Ethan disappears, presumably going back to the caves. But he returns alone a short time later and kidnaps both Claire and Charlie. Meanwhile, back at the beach, Hurley is working on his manifest, and discovers that Ethan was not on the plane.

I think two factors went into the impromptu kidnapping. First, it looked like Claire might actually have the baby, and Ethan may have wanted/needed to get to the child first. Second, he got wind that Hurley was checking the manifest and knew his cover would be blown. So he grabbed Claire (and Charlie because he just happened to be there) and high-tailed it to the medical hatch. Ethan says something to Tom in the hatch like "What was I supposed to do? They had a manifest".

LightSide/DarkSide

04-14-08, 07:59 AM

Thanks, that was a good run-down of what happened. But I still don't understand why he took her. I know he was trying to convince Claire to give up the baby to the Others but is that the only reason? If the Others felt so strongly about raising the children themselves so that they'll have a better life (I think they've said that about the other kids) then why didn't they ever try to take Aaron again? Is he too young to seperate from his mom? Isn't that what they were going to do when they had Claire at the Staff? I'm so confused. :(

rknorton91

04-14-08, 04:05 PM

If I am not mistaken Ethan claimed that the baby needed to have this medicine constantly to keep it safe. Even saying sorrowfully at one point that he was sad that he did not have enough medicine for her too.
By that conversation (assuming it was true) that Aaron is no longer any good to them because he has not had the medicine properly adminstered to him.
Or it may be more towards Ben's influence that Ben is more intersted in things like getting Jack to fix his back instead of doing things like getting Aaron and now with everything falling apart around him Aaron has become less and less of a priority for the moment at least.

TheWatcher

04-14-08, 04:21 PM

Very nice GM...I completly missed that one...great thread!

GardenMom

04-14-08, 08:43 PM

Ok, maybe this will help resolve the question if Claire was time-flashing. In the enhanced version of The Constant, we got this pop-up with Des' first military scene.
You may have noticed the absence of the familiar "whoosh" sound effect.
That is because this is not a flashback but rather, Desmond is time traveling.

I'm pretty sure there was no "whooshes" anywhere in the scene where Libby hypnotized Claire. Anyone know for certain?

LightSide/DarkSide

04-14-08, 08:59 PM

Thanks rknorton91, I'd forgotten all about that. I wonder just what that medicine was really for. Is it the same medicine that Desmond was taking? Does it have anything to do with Des becoming unstuck in time? Has anyone else taken these shots that we know of besides Desmond, Aaron, and Claire?

Would Aaron need a constant if he started bouncing back and forth in time? He's been alive such a short time would he even notice the difference? Poor Claire. What if she bounces back to a time before she was pregnant? Who or what would be her constant then?

Hmmm... maybe that's what Smokie's original purpose was. We are lead to believe that Smokie can appear as familiar people or creatures (Kate's horse?) pulled from a person's memories. Maybe Dharma had people bouncing around in time and they needed a constant. So they make Smokie or whatever creates the havids like Yemi and bingo! instant constant. But then Smokie malfunctioned and started smashing people into trees and eating pilots. Bad Smoke Monster!

korunn chalsad

04-14-08, 11:39 PM

Ok, maybe this will help resolve the question if Claire was time-flashing. In the enhanced version of The Constant, we got this pop-up with Des' first military scene.

I'm pretty sure there was no "whooshes" anywhere in the scene where Libby hypnotized Claire. Anyone know for certain?

There aren't any whooshes -- instead we get a rapid montage of memories very like Desmond's "future flashes", and then suddenly we're in the "flashback".

BTW, I just rewatched "Homecoming", I have nothing new to add there, but in the following episode ("Outlaws") Claire has an interesting conversation with Charlie. It sounds like she's just recovering from amnesia, but in light of this discussion it takes on new possibilities:

Claire (to Charlie): "... I had some dreams last night. Actually, more like memories. You were in them."

ok, perhaps a bit far-fetched, but doesn't that sound like Claire could be having flashes about Charlie like Desmond was?

I think Claire's "flashes" have to do with the past - my guess is TPTB are using these parallels to hint that past and future aren't so different on the island.

J_C

04-15-08, 12:43 AM

The act of "consciousness time travel" has always been precipitated by the individual experiencing a heavy exposure to electromagnetic radiation, as explained by Faraday and demonstrated by his experiment. If an instance of this (other than flight 815 getting hit by the EMP causing the crash) happening to Claire can be established that would give great credence to this theory.

A fascinating idea concerning her 'Staff station flashbacks' might be that Claire had actually picked up on Danielle's blocked memories of when the Others took Alex. That seems less likely though because Alex was in Claire's returned memories, but that may be due to some projection on the part of Claire on the situation. In Danielle's case, perhaps it was Annie who helped her escape, and Claire in her own recollection put on this person the face of Alex.... LOL.

I do not believe that TPTB were considering time travel to become part of the story at the time. It appears to be just the vehicle used to prolong Desmond's participation in the storyline.

GardenMom

04-15-08, 02:13 PM

I wonder just what that medicine was really for. Is it the same medicine that Desmond was taking? Does it have anything to do with Des becoming unstuck in time? Has anyone else taken these shots that we know of besides Desmond, Aaron, and Claire?

Charlie came upon a case of the vaccine and an innoculation gun - I believe he said it was in a pallet drop. He gave it to Claire to use on the baby, but he also said he first "tested" it on himself to make sure it was safe. So Charlie has had at least a dose. Also, Kelvin in the hatch said to Des that he had been shooting himself up with the stuff as directed by Dharma.

There aren't any whooshes -- instead we get a rapid montage of memories very like Desmond's "future flashes", and then suddenly we're in the "flashback".

Yes, that is what I thought too. No whooshes. So could Claire have actually slipped into unconsciouness during the hypnotism and Libby didn't realize it? Then when she comes to, she is screaming and has the vivid memories of Ethan.

BTW, I just rewatched "Homecoming", I have nothing new to add there, but in the following episode ("Outlaws") Claire has an interesting conversation with Charlie. It sounds like she's just recovering from amnesia, but in light of this discussion it takes on new possibilities:

Claire (to Charlie): "...I had some dreams last night. Actually, more like memories. You were in them."

ok, perhaps a bit far-fetched, but doesn't that sound like Claire could be having flashes about Charlie like Desmond was?

I don't think it is far-fetched. Was she just sleeping or did she go unconscious for a bit? Who could say?

The act of "consciousness time travel" has always been precipitated by the individual experiencing a heavy exposure to electromagnetic radiation, as explained by Faraday and demonstrated by his experiment. If an instance of this (other than flight 815 getting hit by the EMP causing the crash) happening to Claire can be established that would give great credence to this theory.

Actually, what we have seen is the CHAOTIC and life-threatening travel being precipitated by the heavy massive dose of EM/Radiation. (Desmond and Eloise the rat) But if it is a slow, even controlled, build-up, the flashes may be more controllable. That's what I'm proposing in my They All Have Flashes (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48228) theory.

The brief exposure they went through when 815 was hit may be a trigger that sets off the flash effect.
Faraday's behavior that we've seen so far indicates that he may have experienced a cumulative effect of radiation exposure from the years he was conducting his experiments. A slower, but ongoing dosage.
The island's unique properties may cause this on-going dosage also. A slow, controlled build-up which causes the ability to flash - but without the chaotic, life-threatening side effects.

LightSide/DarkSide

04-18-08, 07:19 PM

Oh that's right. I'd forgotten Charlie had tested it on himself first.

Some of the people on the freighter seem to have been "unstuck" just from getting too close to the EM field that surrounds the island. There's no way to know if they had any previous exposure to radiation. Minkowski was the communications officer and maybe had some type of exposure. But Sayid was a communications officer as well and the anomaly didn't have any effect on him that we've seen.

I'm not convinced that Dan's bearing kept Frank and the others from becoming unstuck. If it was simply the bearing that prevents it then Des too should have been ok. Also, Regina, Minkowski, and that guy Minkowski went on the tender with never even passed through the anomaly. Proximity was enough to affect them. I think the bearing was just to make sure that the helicopter made it through the anomaly at all.

As GardenMom pointed out everyone on 815 should have been exposed to EM radiation during the plane crash. They all should have gotten a second dose during the failsafe. I guess everyone on the island may have gotten a dose of radiation during those two events, but for sure the passengers during the crash.

I've wondered why Des seems to be the only one that became unstuck in time during the failsafe. Eko and Locke were both inside the hatch. The floor couldn't have supplied that much shielding that they wouldn't be affected by the EM pulse. The only thing I can think of that really seperates Desmond from them is the injections he took. If that's the case then it suggests that Claire and Aaron both may be prone to becoming unstuck. Claire had best be careful if she does get on that helicopter. I hope she has her constant.

korunn chalsad

04-19-08, 02:55 AM

Claire had best be careful if she does get on that helicopter. I hope she has her constant.

~yikes~ :hypnotize
..Christian?

If the serum is the common denominator, what about Aaron's constant? Maybe he's safe since he only knows the island.. or maybe Claire will be with him just long enough for him to make it through..

friendly eyeball

04-19-08, 03:58 AM

I think Claire's "flashes" have to do with the past - my guess is TPTB are using these parallels to hint that past and future aren't so different on the island.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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for conciousness, past and future aren't points on a line but rather specs in a swirling liquid of possibility. not to be a party pooper but it seems to me Claire simply had repressed memories, likely aided by Ethan, narcotics and her own fear/ confusion.

her memories seem to be just that, while Desmond had a different experience entirely.

LightSide/DarkSide

04-21-08, 04:48 PM

If the serum is the common denominator, what about Aaron's constant? Maybe he's safe since he only knows the island.. or maybe Claire will be with him just long enough for him to make it through..

I think in Aaron's case he hasn't lived long enough to be confused if he jumps back in time. If he does Claire would be right there hopefully. Or maybe Kate will be his constant and that's in part why she is taking care of him off-island.

3519273540

04-23-08, 08:40 PM

RangerMel

04-24-08, 03:45 AM

Annie. :mad:

rknorton91

04-24-08, 04:26 AM

I think one mistake often made with lost is the following.

An episode introduces a new and interesting idea or plot line, inevitably, people think that that idea or plot line is the key to everything in the show. I remember when the Swan Hatch was tied into every aspect of the plot. It usually doesn't turn out that way.
I dont really follow that line of logic

The swan hatch we know has at least around 20 years of history on the island. We know that the hatch and Desmond were central in the downing of 815 in the first place. Which I believe started the whole show. We have time trippers who seem to have alot to do with elctromagnetic emissions and suprisingly the Swans whole purpose was to study the islands strange EM emissions. I dont know but to me that the Swan seems to be smack dab in the middle of the whole enchilada.

3519273540

04-24-08, 04:41 AM

I dont really follow that line of logic

The swan hatch we know has at least around 20 years of history on the island. We know that the hatch and Desmond were central in the downing of 815 in the first place. Which I believe started the whole show. We have time trippers who seem to have alot to do with elctromagnetic emissions and suprisingly the Swans whole purpose was to study the islands strange EM emissions. I dont know but to me that the Swan seems to be smack dab in the middle of the whole enchilada.

I didn't say it was totally irrelevant. But it had limited scope. We'll see how much of a role it plays in the future. All I know is, they've gone a season and a half without mentioning it beyond the immediate aftermath of the implosion.

Another example, Claire's baby and why the others wanted it was a big thing in many theories....we all know how that turned out.