EPISODE 5 DISCUSSION THREAD (20 October 2004): White Rabbit

[Master Xander]

This is the discussion thread for tonight's LOST episode, "White Rabbit." Please post all your episode comments, mini-reviews, as well as simple questions ("What did so-and-so say?" "What did so-and-so see?" "What song played at this scene?") regarding the episode.

Any new theories or big issues raised by the episode may be started on a new thread.

Enjoy tonight's episode!

[pinnerman]

to be on the Internet WHILE watching LOST tonight, please feel free to enter the Live Chat during the show. It's pretty fun, you can instantly react to things or make guesses about what's going to happen. Some of us tried it out last week and it was great. So if you have a wireless laptop set-up like me or you have your computer in a room with a TV, try it out. If you don't have that type of set up or you don't like that level of multi-tasking, that's fine too, stop in afterward.

WEST COAST PEOPLE - Warning!!! Coming into the chat when the show is on live on the east coast will result in MAJOR SPOILAGE! If you don't want to know what's going on, please don't enter. We were nice last week, but this week will be different, so be advised. On the other hand, if you want to pop into the chat to find out important plot points in advance so you can then win bets with your friends later on in the evening, then by all means tee it up. We'll let you know if the guy in the suit is indeed Jack's father, what's up with the white tennis shoes, and if pregnant Claire makes it through the episode alive. Either way, stop by if you get the chance.

[cccourt]

during the show...better than us all being together ...we don't have to dress up!!
ccc:hat

[pinnerman]

And just to clarify, most of the chat activity takes place on the commercial breaks so it's not that distracting...

[DomMonaghanFan]

That was a great episode. I get the title now. Jack's father was the white rabbit. When Jack went over the cliff I was wondering if his father might pull him up. lol I know weird but it could happen.

I never thought Boone would be the one to have taken the water. I loved how Charlie got mad and started to beat him up. lol I think Charlie likes Claire. He is always nice to her and the way he acts. How he said that he's not afraid of her when she said she thinks everyone is. That was nice. Then when he yells at Boone for taking the water, and because of that Claire could have died. He seems to protect her. Awww. lol

I don't get the Korean couple. First the guys ordering her around and then they are being really nice to each other. I guess we'll see next week. Jin beats up Mike and almost kills him. That was terrible. Do you think Mike will go all the way with the ax. I think Jack or someone will stop him.

Anyways that was an awesom episode.

[feenie1010]

I liked it very much so. The whole "white rabbit" and chasing what is or isn't there.

When his name was announced as Shephard, all I could think of was when the Astronauts went into orbit one of them was Shepherd and he said a quote from the Bible "...and a shepherd shall lead them". Considering the ep that just happened, his name fits the new Jack. He is leading them.

[Laurabegorrah]

ccc:

during the show...better than us all being together ...we don't have to dress up!!

Admit it - how many people don't get dressed at all! ;)

[JeffLay]

xander - how long have you been posting? Are you affiliated with ABC or the show?

[JeffLay]

No monster tonight, nor any sign of monster in next week's previews. That is, if they are previews for next week.

[halfwright]

I won't start a new thread since this isn't any earth-shattering theory or anything, but it seems like everything in Lost is interconnected. The white rabbit, of course, is a character in Alice in Wonderland, which is essentially a critique of governments, which is, coincidentally, what John Locke wrote on. Maybe it's a stretch, but it starting to seem like everything can be chained together.

[Memoh]

It's been a while since I read Alice, and I never did read John Locke...but was it governments being criticized? Or the structure of society?

I agree that everything is interconnected, but Sawyer was reading Watership Down, and I think that was more a commentary on society than gov.

[feenie1010]

Sawyer was reading Watership Down, and I think that was more a commentary on society than gov.

Is that what he was reading? I couldn't tell.

[Phil Meadows]

I think we're being fed clues about the society that is eventually going to emerge among the 47--46. Sawyer reading Watership Down and Jack's speech at the end of tonight's episode--Kate's being the "sherrif". If I were going to write a castaway story it would orbit around the idea of a bunch of different kinds of people struggling to form a society.

So I think you guys are on to something 8o

[LostXphile]

Okay, so Boone took the water, right? But why? When everyone was arguing I couldn't understand what excuse Boone gave for taking the water. I just don't get what Boone could have possibly been thinking to take something so vital as everyone's drinking supply.

[jocrli77]

My local station decided to be mean. And they decided to display the winning lotto numbers when Sun and her husband (can't remember his name) were speaking at first, so I couldn't read the subtitles, can any one help?

[railwaymadness]

LostXphile -- I think Boone was just trying to do the right thing. Jack had run off so there was no obvious leader and somebody had to make sure water rationing started. Boone just went about it really poorly.

[RurouniSamuraiX]

Tonight's episode was very interesting! I had an inkling that the man Jack kept seeing was his father or at least someone from his past. I wonder if he'll continue to see him now.

Locke creeps me out though. (>>;) At least he's useful and knows survival skills.

What was written on Charlie's hand this time? It passed too quickly before I could tell.

I had some more thoughts and speculations but unfortunately I can't remember them now. (^_^)

[TweetyDaBiatch]

Okay what I don't understand is if Boone took the water...why was it the korean couple he shared it with before anyone else?? It seems he is kind of attracted to Kate, so why not use that as "brownie" points to score with her???

[Jazziered]

It still said LATE on Charlies hand..

[JacksGirlfriend]

Railway: Are you and I the only two that know Boone didn't steal the water?

JacksGirl

[TweetyDaBiatch]

So then who did steal the water?? It would be nice if I had wrong info to be corrected then......

[LostXphile]

I think Boone was just trying to do the right thing. Jack had run off so there was no obvious leader and somebody had to make sure water rationing started. Boone just went about it really poorly.

Thanks for the explanation railwaymadness! Boone had no right to do what he did. People can live for along time without a lot of things but water ain't one of them. And trying to ration the water by taking all the water, and then disappearing himself goes a little beyond handling something poorly, it veers heavily into the scary control freak arena. I don't know, deep down there might have been good intentions behind his actions but I'm wondering if this stunt was more about him trying to play the big kahuna to overcome his feelings of inadequacies than thinking of the overall good of the group.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Boone moved the water from the tent to protect it. He knew Jack had gone into the woods. He was trying to do Jack a favor. When everyone was accusing him, he tried to say something like "But Jack was gone and..."

He was being Jack's second in command - trying to do the right thing - like when he got the pens.

JacksGirl

[TweetyDaBiatch]

In order to move the water, wouldn't he indeed have to be the one to have taken it then?

[feenie1010]

why was it the korean couple he shared it with before anyone else?? It seems he is kind of attracted to Kate, so why not use that as "brownie" points to score with her???

Hmmm. Wasn't it Sawyer who bartered his water with Jin for some fish?

Boone tried to do something right and it backfired, again.

[TweetyDaBiatch]

I remember one of the characters in tonight's episode saying that Locke had 400 knives!! What would someone possibly be doing with that many knives.....seems a bit odd....

[feenie1010]

That was Charlie re: Locke's Walkabout, safari like expedition he planned on taking through Australia's Outback.

[Suil Liath]

Boone makes the wrong decisions for the right reasons-- I wonder he ran a business, successfully, unless it was a taco stand.

It's possible that Boone is slated to run the family business one day and he's trying to be responsible.

But he made a unilateral decision to move the water (for the right reasons) without telling anyone.

That's what Jack is talking about: can't have 46 loose cannons running around or they're all dead!

What's up with the empty coffin? Was the body supposed to be in there? Is that even the coffin Jack put on the plane?

[TweetyDaBiatch]

I kinda figured that, just seemed like an awful lot to have even for that!! You would think with all the terrorist kinda things going on they might limit how many one took on a plane LoL

[LostXphile]

Boone moved the water from the tent to protect it. He knew Jack had gone into the woods. He was trying to do Jack a favor. When everyone was accusing him, he tried to say something like "But Jack was gone and..."

I can understand him wanting to ration the water but he can't unilaterally decide to take/hide all the water without letting anyone know what he's doing. I'm sorry but he didn't have the right to do that to everyone else. I don't think Boone was trying to do Jack a favor because he was pretty ticked at Jack before he tracked off into the jungle. I think Boone was feeling inadequate because Jack had to rescue him from drowning and he wanted to prove that he can be a 'big man' too. And if Boone was so concerned about the water situation because Jack was gone then why did he disappear himself until it was already evening? If he's the only one who knows where the water is then he needs to stay with the group when emergencies like Claire's arises. And if he was on the beach the whole time while Claire was in crisis then that makes Boone look like an even bigger jerk.

[TweetyDaBiatch]

I was just thinking that myself.....even if Boone had wondered off, why didn't he go to Claire as soon as he got back to see what the situation was? If his TRUE intention was to take control since Jack was gone, wouldn't it just go with the territory then to know what was going on with everyone at all times, especially a serious situation such as that!!!

[azteclady]

I've stated elsewhere, I think that Boone -wants- badly to be THE leader, and have people look up at him as they do Jack (who is not trying). Boone isn't mature enough to understand that you either have it or not.

Remember when they were in the hike back after the distress call? He took the gun and the clip 'to stand guard' - but he didn't have the stones to tell everyone before they fell asleep, "Guy, we need someone to stand guard, gimme the gun, I'll do it!" He wanted them to wake up and ask him, and then he could be all important and tell them how he had kept them safe.

Same with the water. He overhears the discussion between Jack, Hurley and Charlie, and instead of saying, "Guys, don't be idiots, if that all that's left, we need to guard it, it can't be left alone" what does Boone do? He takes it and gets to be the one deciding who gets the water. He probably expected to be praised for that too, idiotic child that he is.

As for the business... I'm with Kit - Boone may be in line to inherit, but he has a looooooooonnnnnng way to go before I would trust him with my daughter's piggy bank, let alone -any- business (taco stand included).


Beto
who got booted off the chatroom and can't go back in *pout*

[majjor matt]

I dont want to read too much of this. But as a diehard LOST follower and beng in AUSTRALIA this show hasnt even started here... thus I am acquiring this episode by 'other means'

Cant wait to see it! :D :D :D :D

[MsHllywdJenn]

JacksGirl~ :lol LMAO the pens!! :lol That was funny.

Apparently Boone is lacking in quite a few areas. A supposed Lifeguard that almost drowns? Moving the water without telling anyone? Running a business?

I agree with a lot of you though. We were left a whole lot of clues in this episode. Let's just follow the breadcrumbs.

I'll do my best to remember what happened I've only seen it once thus far.

Jack was always told that he "didn't have what it takes". His father was Chief of surgery and an alcoholic. (Personally I wouldn't want a drunk for my surgeon.) Alcoholism is hereditary. Jack was drinking on the plane. However, Jack's desire to prove himself, and lack of alcohol, may keep him from that. We also know that Jack did something to upset his family. Hmmm. His father had no friends and a troubled marriage. Is he really dead?

Boone was a lifeguard. Who doesn't know how to properly perform CPR, or a successful water rescue. I have been caught in a riptide before. I made it to shore okay on my own but my friend was rescued by a lifeguard. Did he think about using one of the seats as a flotation device? He said he runs a business. A manager of some sort? He attempted to "manage" the water supply. Apparently he also has something to prove.

Sawyer was reading "Watership Down" as so many of you figured out it's about reforming a society. The pieces are beginning to fall into place. Everyone is beginning to take on their role.

Claire and Charlie.... well.... I'll leave that to the theorists and all those hoping for a hook-up w/those two.

Locke stepped up right after Jack left. Locke is the second in command, also maybe the teacher, the guide. All he really did for Jack was wake him up, make him see what was around him.

Finally, Dr. Shepherd, the ghost, the white rabbit. Interesting that throughout that whole chase Jack was led to freshwater. Was it an aimless journey? Or was it on purpose? Is Jack's father alive? Or did the airline load an empty coffin?

Here we are again with more questions needing more answers. I guess we'll just have to keep tuning in and see what the next day brings. :)

[Myzty]

Hey,

How much am I loving tonight's episode? ALOT. Mostly for two reasons ... Charlie and Claire. Ok lets make it one reason then. ;)

- This was Jack's episode. His spiritual struggle of "chasing" a delusion was very well portrayed. When Locke was talking I kept on thinking about the 40 days and their significance. I 've talked about it in Philly Exp' thread but here it is again. Seeing that "Locke" does seem to know "something" (spiritual as it seems) that others don't, I wanna place my bets on the fact that the 40 days have to do with the Aborigine's spiritual journey of self discovery. Obviously there are other religions and their own interpretations of the significance on the number... and I really dont care to get into that again, but obviously LOCKE is one mysterious character and almost the most intriguing one of all.

- We found out another dimension to the goody two shoe characters. Boone and Claire. Claire it seems is into stars, how ironic... she feels insecure and is obviously not feeling very comfortable around ppl when they are avoiding her. Charlie and Claire are definately cute. I completely love their chemistry and am somewhat obsessed with them... not more so than lost I suppose, but just a little? maybe ... Did I mention I love C&C?

Good catch on Boone Aztec lady. He doesn't seem to be all he "projects" himself to be. For one he couldnt even revive Rose with the CPR... tonight he almost drawn himself saving someone. Do I see another backstory calling my name? Yes I do! Atleast we all know Shannon is a spoilt *hmm how can I put it nicely?* BIATCH. But Boone, now, he is showing some colors even in all his good intentions (maybe lack of confidence or leadership ability is making him contend with Sawyer for Island-Bad-Boy...) but I say there is some potention under all the hunky muscles... *sorry for the side track*

- How do you guys think the "divide" will be? It seems it would be a Saeed vs. Jack tribe. Who will win immunity? Find out on the next Sur... err Lost! ;)

[Vicki]

That was an awesome episode... I think Boone was trying to do the right thing from the start but it just comes back to smack him in the face. Maybe he also has some kind of past like Jack's where he was never adequate enough for his parents or something. I can't wait to see a backstory for Boone and Shannon, I can tell its going to be something good...or at least something that will broaden their characters a little more than the bratty kids they're coming off as at the moment. The Sawyer comment to him at the end was harsh...I felt so bad for him! Somehow I didn't feel as bad when it was Sawyer because he didn't care...it even seemed like he was TRYING to be the bad guy, but I don't think Boone ever wanted that.

The White Rabbit thing was freaky, the coffin being empty kind of stumped me, but obviously they wanted to make us suffer by thinking whether he really saw his dad and if there even was a body in there... so that area he found...was that the tail of the plane??

Hmm when Jack was talking about how he never spoke to the lady who died, I was thinking maybe they'd start introducing more characters from the plane but...doesn't really seem like it. Heh.

[Baron X]

The coffin, no way does the airline sneak the body out and just ship the empty coffin. We don't know if dad made it on the plane. Some how I don't think the ticket agent is able to make 'gut' decisions. That being said who was shipping such a cheap coffin from Australia to America, Jack broke through the lid with one blow.

Plus after years and years of mental abuse from his Father, smashing some one elses empty coffin brings closure?

Was there a cave or not? From the coffin's angle there was a ledge over it like a cave opening, from Jack's POV there was no cave. What up with that?

Boone is an idiot. the only thing he is good for so far is keeping his sister in line. Did he even tell anyone he was going to attempt a rescue? Charlie said he woke up when he heard him screaming in the water.

The survivors are a lazy group aren't they? Even Kate would not go and help Jack with Boone until they were standing in a foot of water. Surely some body could have gone with Locke to get water. Jack goes sprinting across the beach and nobody is curious enough to follow.

What happened to the tub of rain water from two days ago? and have the flash rain storms stopped?

If Sayed and Kate followed Sawyer to his stash, how did Sayed get so far behind? Kate tackles Sawyer (that was cool), Sawyer flips her over gains the advantage and sits on her for 30 seconds before Sayed shows up and pulls him off.

Yes, Charlie is nice to Claire, but who has Charlie not been nice to?

Hasn't Jack made the "it's been (insert number of days here) days and no one has come" speech before? Hope it is not going to be an every episode thing.

Sayed started organizing people in to groups when he got back from the Transceiver hike, what ever happened to that?

And notice how Rose and Jin are no longer in the same episodes? Last week Rose, Sun but no Jin, This week Jin but no Rose.

[maxpublic]

That being said who was shipping such a cheap coffin from Australia to America, Jack broke through the lid with one blow.

On the other hand, we could've watched ten minutes of film showing Jack trying to bust the thing open with a rock. But do we really want a TV show that takes after Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series, deliberately subjecting us to every excruciatingly irrelevent detail?

Was there a cave or not?

It confused me as well. They built their set too low, which cut the camera angles. Bad design decision.

Boone is an idiot.

You can say that again. I think the reason he didn't tell anyone is because he wanted to be the hero for once. Boone is monster food (I hope).

The survivors are a lazy group aren't they?

One word: sharks. You wouldn't find me jumping in to help either.

What happened to the tub of rain water from two days ago?

Hmmm...one tub of water plus 47 survivors equals lots of yellow sand.

If Sayed and Kate followed Sawyer to his stash, how did Sayed get so far behind?

He didn't. Like all of us red-blooded males he got enormously excited over Kate tackling and pinning Sawyer, then watching Sawyer do the same to Kate. It took a bit for his mind to clear itself of hot Kate fantasies.

Sayed started organizing people in to groups when he got back from the Transceiver hike, what ever happened to that?

Sayid was the man of the moment, and now he's working on his pet "get me the hell of this bloody rock" project. I think he's far more interested in leaving the island than in living on it. I don't blame him.

And notice how Rose and Jin are no longer in the same episodes? Last week Rose, Sun but no Jin, This week Jin but no Rose.

That's probably a money issue. If an actor doesn't actually speak then you can pay him peanuts; but if he/she says so much as a single word then by Actor's Guild rules the price goes up enormously. Both Jin and Sun had speaking parts, so you don't want to unnecessarily add Rose to the mix and increase costs by $10,000.

Max

[Baron X]

But if all the survivors had been getting their water from the tub, they should have realized they were out. It would not have been a secret. Because they were like, "shhhh don't tell anyone we are almost out of water". They would have noticed on their own. "Hey what happen to the tub of water that was here yesterday? hello? Why is Charlie not looking at me?" But they don't seem to be an especially smart or active group.

[theghostofwalt]

as for the coffin, (and assuming that it is the coffin that held jacks father) if you were transporting a body- that wouldnt be the actual coffin they are buried in, would it? i would think it would be a figurative "pine box". thats how i saw it, anyways.

and as for the section of plane he found- do you guys think that is the "tail" section? or maybe just a chunk that happens to be part of the cargo hold? cause if its indeed the cargo he found (which would make sense seeing as the coffin is there) wouldnt it stand to reason that thats where the dog started out?

also, a reason i dont think its the "tail" section (meaning a huge section with passengers) is that wouldnt jack factor that in (dead bodies, roses dead mangled husband) when saying they would go back for water? he didnt make any note of a section of plane being there, just that he found water.

and to complete my random musings ;) ...i got the impression that jack was "led" to the site. in all the cahsing, he ended up at both fresh water AND the coffin (presumably) his father was in. anyone else?

unless of course its not a chunk of their plane he found...

[1DRONE1]

Well it looked like the same color sceme as the rest of the plane. But it the flashback scene when Jack is pleading with the booking agent to get him and his fater on the same plane they never show you if that happens.

Also did anybody else notice the Actress that played jacks Mom. I forget her name but she played on the Steven Bochco show Hill Street Blues. Man she has aged poorly

[drypelia]

Veronica Hamel

[angry may queen]

I thought this episode was really good. I've realized that once you start to over analyze everything, you get hung up in stupid details that just ruin the story or the dynamics of the character relationships.

The scene with Locke and Jack was just first-rate. I love Locke. He is such a wonderful character.

And this episode would still rank high up there, even if ET or Alf came down and rescued everyody, just because Sawyer called Shannon "Sticks." :lol

I laughed for about 15 minutes. That was awesome.

[hobbitenvy]

Great episode. However, it's getting harder and harder to believe the creators when they say the show is grounded in reality as we know it -- too much freaky stuff going on. I love it anyway, though.

I think what Jack found wasn't the tail, but just a chunk of the fuselage that held some cargo. I bet that's where the dog was initially. Wonder if they can find some use for what appeared to be a broken-open carton of kids' dolls...

[Lothiriel of Rohan]

So why are Jack and Boone the only two who try to rescue the woman who is drowning? Are they the only two who know how to swim? What happened to Sawyer and Sayid as well as the other 43 survivors? Why are they all just standing there watching? Because of the rip tide?

[Baron X]

Yes, you would think Jack would have mentioned he found a piece of a different plane. The cargo section runs through a large chunk of the plane. I think it was a piece that ripped off the middle section.

The show was not bad, I have seen shows where the writing staff does not seem to keep track or even watch previous episodes and they forget previous plot points or decide 'hey what if we do this? It would be cool' despite the fact it goes against what was done before. We are only 5 episodes in and some laziness is starting to creep in.

[valenos]

Hey everyone,

I missed the last little bit of the episode because my tivo cut it short. Last thing I have is Jack saying his dad died and then the recording cuts out right before he's about to say something else. Can someone fill me in on hw the rest of the scene played out? Did he say anything else significant?

Thanks,
Matt

[Lothiriel of Rohan]

Well if what Jack found was another part of the same plane they were all in that landed in another part of the island, is it then possible that Rose's husband is alive on another part of the island with other survivors who were in the part of the plane her husband was in when the plane crashed and broke up?

What do you think?

[coca21]

I want to know why they keep depending on Jack for every damn thing they do. It's almost like they can't think for themselves. Understandable that a leader should be in ever bunch but damn, these are grown ass adults (except the kid and the baby on the way)

Charlie and Claire gonna hook up. :lol

[Baron X]

It was not that big a piece of the plane. Should not be any survivors or bodies associated with it.

[azteclady]

Because most 'grown @ss adults' don't want to lead - don't care for the responsibility nor to face the fall out should they make 'bad' or unpopular decisions.

Anecdotal evidence:

Recently I attended a homeowners meeting for my community. Out of 114 owners, less than 25 showed to a meeting where damage from the recent hurricanes (here in sunny Florida), and expenses to repair it, were going to be discussed.

There were 4 new seats in the seven members Board of Directors open that night. After some ten or twelve people ranted for over half an hour over the incompetence of said board and the property manager it hired last year (after firing the truly incompetent previous property manager), NO ONE stepped forward to take any of those seats. Three times did the manager asked for someone to take the seats without response. (The silence was spooky, by the way - like the Twilight Zone episode with everyone disappearing). It took a fourth try to get the four vic... volunteers :D

Complaining is easy. Waiting to be told what to do is even easier - you can always complain about it afterwards. Having the stones to make decision for others is not that easy.

My two cents here.


Beto
who stood up and is now a member of the Board, heaven help her!

[jprez98]

Yeah, I was wondering why no one else was offering to help the drowning people, too. At least Charlie said he didn't swim. Notice, he didn't say he CAN'T swim, he just said he DIDN'T. As far as I'm concerned, everyone else should have been more helpful. He's the only one with an excuse, even though I'm not sure how good that excuse is.

-Jen

[r121567]

Two comments:
(a) The coffin - how many of us have successfully convenienced anyone at ticketing to bypass their rules by begging and/or pleading our case? Granted Jack is pretty hot but rules are rules. Either the casket was empty which begs the question, did Jack leave his deceased father at the airport? Did the funeral home complete the necessary forms and make arrangments to fly the body home separately from Jack an the casket? OR Jack indeed pleaded his case well and the body & casket were allowed to travel. The absence of the body in casket is simple.....the bloody thing fell from the sky. Jack opened the casket easily, this tells me that the casket was not sealed. The body could have fallen out of the casket as the casket fell to the ground.
(b) The knives - HELLO - does anyone understand sarcasm when they hear it? The 400 knives comment was not meant to be literal. It was like saying one knife wasn't enought, that dude need hundreds.

[angry may queen]

I agree for the most part that someone else should have done something. But think about what we know about the characters and the probability of them helping:

Sawyer: Yeah, right. He probably wouldn't even rescue his own mother from drowning

Jin: Has totally separated himself from everyone on the island. He's unhelpful and makes sure that he and his wife "stick together." He's not going to help anyone but himself.

Sun: Well, just consider what we know about Jin...

Shannon: Self-centered and uncaring.

Claire: Pregnant and not feeling well.

Michael: Just got his leg torn up by a wild boar. I don't think he could do it.

Walt: He's 10. 'Nuff said. ;)

Charlie: Said he "doesn't" swim. Which suggests to me that maybe he actually CAN swim, but certainly isn't good enough to go rescue somebody.

Rose: Distraught, distant, and delusional (we didn't even see her in this episode). I wonder if she even knew what was happening.

Boone: Was doing a bang-up job out there, wasn't he?

The only folks (of those we've met so far) who've really displayed any kind of potential ability to go help with the rescue are Kate, Sayid, and possibly Locke and Hurley. It is also possible that even these 4 have a very rudimentary swimming ability and just knew that they were incapable of swimming out in a riptide to save another.

BTW: Did I leave anyone out?

[maxpublic]

I forget her name but she played on the Steven Bochco show Hill Street Blues. Man she has aged poorly

Her name is Veronica Hamel and she's sixty-one years old. I'd say that for sixty-one she's looking pretty good. Certainly much, much better than most of us will, I'll wager.

is it then possible that Rose's husband is alive on another part of the island with other survivors who were in the part of the plane her husband was in when the plane crashed and broke up?

It isn't even remotely possible, if this show has any connection at all to reality. Even if the tail section broke off at a few hundred feet (which I don't think it did) it isn't aerodynamic in the slightest; those people would've died from impact trauma. Realistically everyone in the tail should be insect-food.

As for the other nameless members of the group avoiding responsibility, I don't think it stretches credibility. Until Jack made his little speech in ep 5 I'm sure that everyone there was waiting/hoping for rescue, and would probably be avoiding any thought at all that said rescue wasn't coming. Planning and acting for long-term survival is essentially an admission that help isn't on the way and that they might be stuck in that little hell-hole for a very, very long time.

All of the survivors except for Walt appear to be adults, and rational adults don't think it'd be "fun" to be stuck on some half-assed volcanic rock in the middle of nowhere without the amenities of civilization for the rest of their lives. A place where if you get a cavity you have to yank the whole tooth out to avoid a deadly blood infection; where simple appendicitis can kill, and a broken leg means that you have to rely on the charity of others or you'll die. A place devoid of all of your friends, all of your family, and possibly your husband or wife. A place where SOMETHING in the jungle goes around chomping on the curious, and apparently quite efficiently since it managed to wipe out another group before yours.

These people don't want to plan for long-term survival, they WANT THE HELL OFF THE ISLAND. Who can blame them?

We should also remember that for us it's been something like five weeks; for them, only six days. And how many of our survivors know thing one about surviving in these conditions? I'm willing to bet most of them are couch potatoes and cubicle workers with minimal exposure to anything wild. They've probably never even set foot in a real forest before; the boars were most likely the only wild animal they've seen in person apart from possums and squirrels. They're completely out of their element on the island.

Max

[Vicki]

Did they really actually mention that he wanted to ship his father WITH the coffin? I sort of recall noticing that he mentions the coffin but never specifically stated that his father would be in it...Well anyway, I guess he probably did otherwise he wouldn't be making such a big deal about the White Rabbit and opening the coffin at the end.

[DriftWood]

Vicki - If he had intentionally shipped an empty coffin, why would he have been so upset when he found that it was empty that he tried to beat it to pieces?

[maxpublic]

Vicki - If he had intentionally shipped an empty coffin, why would he have been so upset when he found that it was empty that he tried to beat it to pieces?

Because he'd been hallucinating his dead father all over the island and was beginning to wonder if the body had somehow appeared in the coffin. When he found what he should have - an empty coffin - it confirmed that what he was seeing was just the product of his own mind and that his father's body was still back in Australia. That his delusions weren't magical, but a sign of mental weakness he couldn't afford.

Max

[r121567]

Delusional or not, following Dad did lead Jack to water.....a good night's sleep and Jack will be just fine.

[Lisa AR]

Jack didn't intentionally ship an empty coffin. The woman said, "I'm sorry Mr. Shephard but our policy is that a body must have the proper documentation. There's no latitude..." There never would have been a problem with putting an empty coffin on the plane.

[azteclady]

The body must have proper documentation. The coffin doesn't.

Jack is pleading with the airline representative saying that there's a hearse waiting at the airport, to drive him and his father to the funeral services and cemetery.

It would have made sense to buy the coffin in Sydney and ship both the body and the coffin in the flight Jack himself was taking. That way, he could have disembarked, checked immigration and customs, took custody of body and coffin, break the body's container seals and put the body in the coffin (or put the whole thing in the coffin, if it fit). Then put the coffin in the hearse and ride to the funeral service.

Closure.

When Jack - who obviously is not thinking clearly, and who would be, in his shoes? - realizes that his father's body cannot be put in the plane with him, he makes arrangements for the body to be shipped once the paperwork is completed, leaves the coffin in the plane (or maybe even forgets for a while about that, being distraught over the whole thing). He himself takes the flight because he needs to go face his mother.

The loving mother of his who is blaming Jack for whatever, and who told him that his father 'was right, you don't have what it takes.'

No wonder he needed more liquor.


Beto

[Liberty26]

Every episode so far has been awsome. I was so surprised when I realized that Jack was taking home his dad to be buried. And then for him to find the coffin empty. WOW. Where do they come up with these things. I hope this show will win an Emmy for the writers. They are the best.

[r121567]

As I posted on the Empty Casket area......the casket could not have contained Jack's deceased father's body - too much red tape for one sad story to break. Jack's visions of his father are a result of his feelings of guilt. The episode begins with Jack's father telling him ".....you don't have what it takes....." Jack's mother sends him to retreive his fahter and he fails to arrive in time. He tries to carry his father's body home for burial and fails. At this point, Jack is not feeling too good about being Jack. A few wacks at the empty casket and he catches his second wind and is ready to continue.

[radiocrash]

Thank you for pointing out that Charlie was being ironic about the 400 knives.

On thing: I can't see how the tail section could be on the island at all. If the nose section was inland, and the mid section was on the beach, this leads me to believe that the plane broke apart aproaching the island rather than over it. So with an aircraft travelling at several hundred miles per hour, even if the tail broke away mere minutes before the plane impacted, the tail section would have fallen miles off coast into the sea (so we're talking fish food rather than insect food).

[azteclady]

maxpublic put forth a logical explanation for this, and there's a nice (and often meandering to and from other topics) discussion here:

p073.ezboard.com/flostthe...D=10.topic (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=10.topic)



Beto

[torchhio]

I just knew right off that Jack's dead father's "image or spirit or whatever" was going to lead Jack to freshwater. Really, it was really obvious for some reason. Jack is delirious, dehydrated...of course its the perfect "time" to "see" his father. Believing in an afterlife, I can totally his father wanting to finally help his son......

[railwaymadness]

About Charlie saying he "doesn't" swim: I think this may just be a difference in language usage between England and America. The implication is that he doesn't swim because he doesn't know how to, not because he's physically incapable of it.

It's also far more common in England to not know how to swim than it is in the US (well, certainly than on either of the coasts, in any of the lake states, or anywhere else where people tend to have swimming pools in their backyards or housing developments). It's much trickier to come by temperate waters over there.

Of course, my info is all 15 years old. Any brits out there? Feel free to tell me I'm full of crap. :D

[radiocrash]

Thanks for that link!

I see I was think about the way the nose section landed the wrong way.:o

[entil2001]

I'm seriously impressed. This is easily one of the best series I've seen in a long time. This episode had my wife thoroughly freaked out, to the point where she couldn't bear to watch at times. And that's saying a lot, believe me. I was struck by how well the music fit the mood of the episode, working in a way that was relatively non-intrusive but designed to be as disturbing as possible. I can't wait to watch this one again!

Here's my review for Lost 1.5: "White Rabbit":

www.entil2001.com/series/...st1-5.html (http://www.entil2001.com/series/lost/season1/lost1-5.html)

Overall, this could be the best episode of the series yet. The flashback format is working incredibly well, especially since the backgrounds of the characters are being expertly blended with the experiences of the survivors on the island. The direction is especially strong in this episode, from the camera work to the score, and there’s simply nothing about the episode that isn’t promising.

[RurouniSamuraiX]

Jazziered~
It still said LATE on Charlies hand..

thank you (^_^)

[psychobunny1]

Is there anyone to find out what happens in editted out scenes... because on abc there is a screen cap for white rabbit that has a picture of Boone and Shannon and I am curius to what they editted out.

[azteclady]

psychobunny,

At this point I would assume you'll have to wait for the DVD. I understand that for the pilot there were downloadable versions with some scenes that were cut from the pilot broadcasted on September 22 and 29, but that's it. I imagine the producers didn't have a problem with that being out because it was a way of increasing the buzz for the show, and it was a way of screening it for a wider audience.

You may want to join our 'campaign' to get a DVD loaded with all sorts of goodies. Let me look for the link...

Ah! Here it is, in the "It's been picked up!" thread: p073.ezboard.com/flostthe...=520.topic (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm2.showMess age?topicID=520.topic)


Beto

[seantrade]

prolly nothing .. but

The episode "White Rabbit" ... Charlies fingers said "LATE" ..

doesn't the White Rabbit always say "I'm late for an important date" ??? (Or am I watching too much Disney)

hmmmmmmmmmm

[sing4themoment]

I have 2 questions:

- Why is the coffin EMPTY?!?!

- Is the plane wreck Jack found another part of the plane?

[azteclady]

You can find proposed answers to those question earlier in this thread, and here p073.ezboard.com/flostthe...=529.topic (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm2.showMess age?topicID=529.topic) (coffin specific) and here p073.ezboard.com/flostthe...D=10.topic (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=10.topic) (plane specific)

I'm sure there are other threads dealing with this, you can use the search feature or just obsessively read every thing that has been posted up to now :D



Beto

Edited because I had not posted the second link *sigh*

[dubakawisewoman]

Jack swam out with great energy to save Boone and the woman who drowned. It was only 5 days ago that Kate put those fairly clumsy stitches into the gash in his side, and surely they would have pulled loose with all that exertion?

This is the first Discussion Thread on the board that I've read all the way through, so it may have been discussed before--did we know before this that Jack's surname was Shepherd? Seems pretty appropriate for a guy who has decided to accept his responsibility to watch over his "flock."

And "Claire" means "light," and I get the feeling that Claire will be a character who brings a lot of light into the situation--she's already handled the "memorial" for the crash victims with a great deal of grace and dignity.

I didn't realize until I read this thread that the show's creators are saying that it's set in a normal reality--in what reality does a man who has been paralyzed for four years get up and run? The reversal of the paralysis, I can accept as a possibility, but surely Locke's leg muscles would have atrophied over the years? I'm surprised he could even stand.

Maybe the creators' idea of "reality" is just very different? Doesn't matter--I'm lovin' Lost anyway!

dub ;o)

[r121567]

I'm going on the assumption that Locke's problem was more mental than physical. Even at that, who has said that it has been a constant thing for four years? I've seen folks at the grocery store WALK into the store, then hop on one of the electric carts. For a man who has been confined to a wheel chair for 4 years, even in the flashback shots at his job, he had the very plain, garden variety basic blue hospital wheel chair. Wouldn't you think he'd invested in a more upscale model by now if it were a constant/permanent satiation?

[JacksGirlfriend]

R121567 (you need an easier name - I'll never remember the numbers): I wondered about the wheelchair too. It looked like the kind they use to transport people around airports and not something a person who needs one would use. It looked like a "rental."

Does anyone know if wheelchairs are taken into the passenger section or if they're put in with the luggage? Do they escort a wheelchair user to the baggage area in an airport model to pick up their own? If that's the case, Locke's real chair might be elsewhere. Or it would indicate he didn't need it all the time - just for long distances.

It doesn't matter of course since he doesn't need it, but I'm curious now about the procedure.

JacksGirl

[AilaAolani]

they have narrower loaner ones that can fit down the aisle of a plane since your average chair cannot fit down there... his chair is probably in the cargo area.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Thanks - that's what I was thinking too.

JacksGirl

[daynade]

I think you have something concerning charlies bandages that say late. but I believe that he is reffering to him coming into the pregnant characters life. he meets her after she's pregnant. therefore he comes in late in her life.:D :D

[MiladyRomance]

Hi,
I'm wondering if his father's body was never moved back to the U.S., or of the fact that his dad is still alive.. now that would be interesting...

I think it was probably the tail or maybe a part of the plane from 16 years ago?

As for the dolls, I have no idea why they were there... Maybe a toy shipment? :p

Take Care and God Bless,
~* Kelly :)

[Lothiriel of Rohan]

OT! MiladyRomance....love your footer. "They have a cave troll-Boromir". LOTR fan? :D

[Baron X]

Have we abandoned the "no supernatural" ? I've counted about 18 posts they have discussed Jack's father being alive. How are they proposing this was accomplished? If a medical examiner determines you had a myocardial infarction, I am sure he has cut you open to make that determination. Once autopsied, you don't come back from the white light through conventional means.

[MiladyRomance]

OT:

Hi Lothiriel of Rohan!

Yes, I love LOTR! Sean Bean is such a cutie... :D

Your name is cool too.. Eomer is another one of my favorites :) .

Thanks :)

Take Care and God Bless,
~* Kelly :)

[Lothiriel of Rohan]

OT: (Off topic)

Mae Govannen MiladyRomance!

Great to see another LOTR fan here. There are many of us on this board who came here from Lord of the Rings and are fans of Dom and the other LOTR characters. As Lothiriel I was Eomer's wife in a past life and Queen of Rohan after the War of the Ring. (I wish...LOL! :D )

Sean Bean as Boromir was/is so wonderful. What a sexy man! :b Loved Legolas and Aragorn as well! :b but my favorite was Eomer. :b :b

If you look at the Off Topic section of this board you will find a thread where some of the LOTR fans chat. Come join us when you have a chance.

Great to see you!

Lothiriel

P.S. My apologies to Baron X and anyone else for this slight diversion. :(

[azteclady]

(mild rant warning)

Baron X, I believe that part of the problem is that a good chunk of the new posters (and a few not-so-new posters), do not read the older threads, or even the full thread, before replying.

(end of rant)



Beto
kept it short in the interest of good fellowship

[JacksGirlfriend]

aztec: For days now I have been trying to find a tactful way of saying that. Thank you for going directly to the point. (Sorry - mine isn't short - I want good fellowship too, but I'll take the consequences.)

For new people: We want to hear your theories, we want to read your comments and we want you to express your ideas. That's what the point of this board is - to get dialogue going, to agree and disagree, to inspire others to expand their minds a little.

But... there are some of us that have been around a pretty long time now. We've read everything there is and commented on it. We've exchanged theories, embraced some, argued over others. When we read a new thread that contains something we discussed three weeks ago, we cannot possibly rehash the same thing again.

It would be very helpful for all of us if everyone would take the time to review what's been said, to open some of the old threads and expound on what's already been discussed. If you wish to open the discussion again, that's great. Feel free. if you wish to disagree with conclusions, that's even better. And if you have a brilliant new theory that's never ever been brought up - I congratulate you because there are some fabulous minds and ideas on this board already.

Some of us want new ideas - we don't want to read someone's "new theory" to find Max said it three weeks ago, Pinnerman brought it up within minutes of the first episode, or I wrote a three page dissertation on it. I lurked for days, reading and thinking, before I posted my first thought.

Thanks for your time. And keep posting. I want to hear what you think and I know others do too. This is not intended to hurt anyone's feelings - I'm just trying to get us all involved in the best possible way we can.

JacksGirl

[Baron X]

Okay, now I feel bad.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Why do you feel bad?

JacksGirl

[Baron X]

I fell like I set her up for you two to smack her around.

[azteclady]

Baron X,

Rest easy. I've been saving up. It just reached the breaking point.

JacksGirl,

I particularly LOVE the suggestion on re-opening old threads. There's a treasure trove of information and ideas here! So many of the things said a month ago can be re-examined in light of what we learn with each new episode.

That's why I've been replying to new posters asking old questions (so to speak), providing links to those old threads, and hoping they see it as helpful and not insulting. (Aside: I'm not sure what my success rate is there... Probably poor as I don't seem made for diplomacy.)

I am worried about the increased cost of the community our fearless leader, MasterXander is facing. I'm worried about bandwidth issues. I'm worried about inertia by many posters and lurkers.

To paraphrase cccourt: I don't have a life and if the LOST board goes belly up, I'm gonna be in trouble.



Beto

[JacksGirlfriend]

Baron: I'm not smacking anyone. My post wasn't directed to anyone in particular, as a matter of fact I didn't even go up to see what might be above it. I've been noticing new posts spread all over the last two weeks - things we've already talked about at length. It wasn't too bad in the beginning but I can't keep up. For awhile I tried to redirect to the older post, but there are so many pages now I don't have time for that and although the search does work, it still occasionally gives too many options.

I love everyone's enthusiasm and it inspires my own. I know how hard it is to keep an idea to yourself because some things just need to be shared. The problem I have (and probably others have it as well) is I can't comment on everyone's thoughts because I don't have the time to go back and rehash everything I've already said elsewhere. And it's almost impossible to comment without a little background on why I believe what I do. So consequently I feel like I'm ignoring an entirely valid comment or a chance to get some good dialogue going. But for me to just say "Yes, I think that too" is ridiculous. If I disagree it becomes even more cumbersome.

It would just be easier for everyone is we were all familiar with what's been discussed and use the basic thread as a leaping point to continue. We have literally hundreds of posts on the nature of the "monster", theories of the island, character studies, fear, purgatory, religious significance, scientific experiments etc. All great thoughts and all needing more dialogue, but to start a conversation from the beginning is absolutely pointless and tiring.

JacksGirl

[Baron X]

In some people's defense, many of the topics don't match the posts filed under them, at least not all the way through. It is easy for all of us to get distracted and take the conversation on a completely different tangent. So I understand if a person was scanning topics and thought they had a completely original idea only to find out some one else had the same comment buried on page 3 of 9 two weeks ago under " I love spam". I've taken to posting less vs. reading more to lessen my chances of being guilty.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Good point, Baron. Maybe we should all be careful to change the subject heading when we post. At least that way it would turn up in a search.

And you're right about going off on a tangent - I'm the chief offender of that - but sometimes you get involved in a conversation and it just twists in an entirely new direction and it turns into a rather fun topic.

I agree the threads don't stay on topic, but that doesn't mean they can't be brought back. Usually just reading the first couple posts will give you an idea of what the topic is. If you're interested, continue and if you find I've been there and I'm now discussing bleach in a laundromat, just ignore me and move it back on track. That's simple really. Or tell me to get back to business. I can take criticism.

But changing the subject line would also help.

JacksGirl

[Baron X]

I'm sure most of us with more than 50 posts are guilty. Conversation are dynamic and can go anywhere anytime. We all must be a little tolerant like the Lost we follow. wow that was sappy. need to go brush my teeth after that one........

[JacksGirlfriend]

Anyway - the topic is Episode 5 Discussion - and it got temporarily derailed...

Back to business, people.

Discuss away.

JacksGirl

[Baron X]

I think Jin is doing the best job keeping his hair fresh.

[JacksGirlfriend]

I'd have to go with Locke.

JacksGirl

[Baron X]

That's not fair, you can't even see his hair from the front.

[JacksGirlfriend]

But there is hair.

Okay then - I'll go with Shannon. She is obviously hording a hairbrush.

JacksGirl

[Baron X]

Jin has relaxed a lot. He started of all tense and "you are mine"-ish, but as Jack's stress level went up Jin's has come down. He told Sun to never leave his sight, but then we would see her and not him. Hmmmm I wonder......since Jack has come to terms and has somehow (sarcasm) gained closure with his Dad, he will be more relaxed. With Jack relaxed, Jin must once again become tense, thus prompting his attack on Michael. I like it! I think it will work.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Lord knows we can't have everyone tense at the same time - who would break up the fights?

JacksGirl

[JacksGirlfriend]

I watched White Rabbit again tonight and now I'm wondering if I was a bit hard on Dr. Shepherd (we discussed him in the chat room). I think I may have taken the conversation between the doctor and young Jack all wrong.

The doctor describes his day: he operates on a little boy and the boys dies. The doctor comes home, eats dinner, watches TV and lets it go. He says he can do this because he "has what it takes." He never actually says having what it takes is a good thing or that it makes him a better man.

What he does say is that Jack doesn't have what it takes. Maybe in this case what Jack doesn't possess is actually a good thing but his father recognizes the potential pain in it. Jack had been a hero earlier in the day and had defended another child, embroiling himself in a conflict he could have avoided. He made a conscious decision to help and failed and now was forced to live with that failure. Not only had he failed to keep the boy safe, he had gotten himself hurt as well.

His father told him not to make choices, implying that when you choose to do the right thing, you sometimes fail and the consequences are very hard to live with if "you don't have what it takes." It was a piece of advice from a man that faced death every day and a word of caution to Jack: don't care too deeply, don't get involved, the choices you make don't always work out and if you don't harden yourself to them, you'll never survive.

His father apparently had stopped making choices long ago. He just did what he had to do and got through each day. I think at the end of it, he realized that by doing this he had wasted his life.

So I don't think Dr. Shepherd was implying Jack was a failure. I think he was warning him not to be a hero. It may not have been the soundest or most altruistic advice I've ever heard, but it is a parent trying to give the best advice he can considering his own circumstances. And probably the reason why Dr. Shepherd drank so much. He may have once been an idealistic surgeon but there came a time when he had to face reality. He couldn't be a hero and save everyone because it just wasn't possible. So he closed up. Perhaps he was merely trying to save Jack from having to go through the turmoil he had been through himself.

I sensed anger and resentment from Jack toward his father, but I also sensed love. Something had happened recently that forced his father away (hopefully we'll find out), but I don't think whatever it was ruined that love. I think ultimately Jack realized that his father's words were twisted. His father had never had what it takes because he had lived his life in fear, denial and wrapped in a blanket of complacency. When he smashed the casket, Jack accepted himself for who he is. A man who cares about others, a man who will always make a choice and someone who will try to do what's right no matter what the consequences.

JacksGirl

[azteclady]

Okay, back to business, people! :D

Jin: I am wondering if he ended up in the editing room and *that* is the real reason we barely saw him in Walkabout (should I take this to that thread? okay, ooookaaaayyy!!!! I'll mention it there too)

Anyway... Things I noticed on my second round at White Rabbit:

- Charlie says "I don't swim, I don't swim" - it sounded to me as "I CAN'T" (either he doesn't know how or is afraid, maybe a near drowning experience?)
- There were two plastic pill phials on the dresser in Jack's father's hotel room, right next to the wallet
- The airline representative does say (twice) that there's NO way the body is getting in the plane without proper documentation
- Jack tells her "In 16 hours I have to be in LAX, where a hearse is waiting for us"
- He continues "Why can't I wait? Why can't I bring him to a funeral home? Because I have to end this. I have to bury my father"
- You can clearly see Jin at the airport in line behind Jack, practically rolling his eyes with impatience, and holding plane tickets.
- When Hurley and Charlie are following Jack to the tent with the water, Hurley starts telling Jack about 'maybe it's better not to tell the others yet about the other stuff' and Jack interrupts (same happened with Kate in Walkabout, when Jack 'sees' his father and then Locke appears)
- When sitting by the fire, discussing Jack's hallucinations, Locke mentions the White Rabbit and Alice in Wonderland, and Jack says "Wonderland, 'cause the one I'm chasing... he's not there"
- Same conversation, Locke says "Is your white rabbit a hallucination? Probably" (then goes on to the eye of the island quote)
- When Jack finds the dolls, you can see several doll boxes open, and more than one piece of fuselage, with the Oceanic Airlines colors.
- When Charlie catches Boone in the tent with the three bottles of water, and tosses him outside, Boone babbles "someone had to take responsibility, they were just sitting there, and Jack was gone, and someone had to do something"
- When Jack stops them from lynching Boone, he says "He's the one who tried to save a woman this morning, and now you all want to crucify him?" (I took it as a reference to NO ONE ELSE jumping to the rescue - even after Charlie was screaming along the beach, and after Jack himself was in the water)
- During his speech, Jack says "Now we are here, and God knows how long we are going to be here"
- It's still night when they divide what's left of the water
- When Kate asks Jack where he went, his answer is "I had to take care of a few things"

I wonder what it's going to be said about the few things I mentioned here that I haven't seen mentioned before... *evil cackle*


Beto

[feenie1010]

was a piece of advice from a man that faced death every day and a word of caution to Jack: don't care too deeply, don't get involved, the choices you make don't always work out and if you don't harden yourself to them, you'll never survive.

JG: I work for a surgeon and as much as he does care for his patients & their welfare he has told me that when one loses their battle with the disease he fights, he takes it personally as if he has failed. And he can't afford that; he has to think of them as a number, a case, so he can move on to the next and hopefully not lose that one as well.

[azteclady]

I really don't like disagreeing with you, JacksGirl, but I'm gonna have to on this.

Whether Jack's father was trying to save his son some pain or not, the message he gave was "you are not good enough." My impression, again, was that this refrain was extremely popular in this particular household, which makes for a rather horrid childhood for our Jack.

The same message (i.e., "don't care too much, because one man can't save everyone"), could have been delivered much more effectively, and Jack's courage in going to a friend's defense should have been acknowledged if not praised. A parent can say, "You tried to help, son, and that is a good thing. It sucks that you couldn't help, but you tried." Jack's father not only failed in this; whatever his intention, he belittled his child, "you don't have what it takes."

It's plain to see that Jack's father was dealing with his own demons already when Jack was a child, and that his drinking only increased with the years. It's also clear that Jack's mother wasn't that good to Jack either, "your father was right about you, you don't have what it takes."

I have no doubt that Jack loved his father - children do. Even children who are beaten on a regular basis by their parents will miss them, if taken away.

I like Jack's character, but now I'm bothered by the inconsistency of his family background. How did Jack come to care so much, if this was hammered into him by both his mother and father? Why is Jack's first reaction to act, to chose, to help?


Beto

[kittymistress]

Just rewatched the episode tonight. Something struck me about Walt. How did he know Sun's name? More importantly, how did he know she is Korean? The other passengers seem to be confused as to Jin & Sun's nationality. Something is wierd here. Didn't Walt mention at one point that he and his mother moved around alot? I'm wondering if she was perhaps in the military, and one of her stations may have been South Korea. Or, maybe Walt is just one super smart kid!

[JacksGirlfriend]

Good catch. There's obviously been some dialogue between them. Not surprising that we didn't see it, but there must have been some understanding there. When Jin talks to her, I never hear the word "Sun". She must have told him that and I've heard others refer to them as "Chinese".

JacksGirl

[missmandalia87]

You can clearly see Jin at the airport in line behind Jack, practically rolling his eyes with impatience, and holding plane tickets.

i noticed that too... and going on what we have already seen about how the show is formatted.... do you think this will come up again? for some odd reason i have a feeling it might... but hey thats just moi...

by the by this is my first post here... so if i make stupid newbie mistakes please be tolerant i am not the smartest person alive...

anyways... i thought that the 'white rabbit' episode, while having a very good plot idea, was not performed the best it could have been, it kinda dragged on for me... NOT that i am saying it was bad, just not the best i have seen...

~manda

[Rachiepachie2001]

So I finally saw the episode you've all been talking about and it was a good episode, but not the best one I've seen yet. I'm hoping Charlie's is better!

I missed some of it because I was being entertain by WWS over the phone :rollin , but I had the captions on so I caught the jist of it. What did Jack do that his mom was so mad at him about? His father died from alcohol poisoning? And the coffin was empty meaning is father IS really on the Island walking around or is Jack just going crazy?

Cheers!

[azteclady]

Rachie,

We actually don't know what Jack did, though speculation is rampant, both earlier in this thread, and over at Jack's forum.

Same for the coffin - my take is that the coffin was empty to begin with and Jack was hallucinating, but you may want to check the "empty coffin????" thread here for other points of view. I believe there's another coffin thread over in Theories and Speculations....


Beto

[Grimme]

I enjoyed this episode. Matthew Fox(Jack) is an incredible actor. Having lost a father myself, his emotions and tears right at the surface are dead-on perfect. It makes me think the actor himself has lost his father, or someone close to him, to be able to convincingly dredge up such raw emotions as he displayed.

I applaud Azteclady and Jacksgirl in not wanting to see a constant rehashing of the same topics/theories/ideas that have already been exhaustively discussed.

I'd also like to add what Jacksgirl taught me about using the "search" function to find out if a topic has been discussed before.

Just click on "search" at the top of the forums' page, type in a word like "French Polynesia" or "Philadelphia Experiment" or "Fangataufa" (!!!!), leaving the "author" space blank, making sure that only the "allow partial matching" square is checked and that in the "search in" spot you choose "entire message".

Then do a search of whatever topic you are looking for in the various forums like "General" or "Theories and Spectulations" or "Ian Somerhalder/Boone" and you can easily find out if a topic has been discussed before without having to tediously read thread after thread after thread.

[Grimme]

I have two questions about this episode that I forgot to add in my post above:

(1) Joanna, the woman who drowned in the rip tide, was a veteran diver who had only been prevented from diving at the Great Barrier Reef by an ear infection, right?

Why couldn't such an obviously experienced swimmer be able to deal with a rip tide herself? Is diving all that fundamentally different from swimming? Surely an experienced diver would know how to deal with rip tides.

It was said that she was sent home and that she bumped herself onto this "Lost" flight two days early. That would seem to mean that none of her fellow divers were with her on this flight since (a) none of them rushed out to rescue her and (b) no one else was mentioned as being bumped off of the diving expedition.

Every major character that we have dealt with so far, seems to know very little about each other. Everything learned is a revelation of some sort. Yet Joanna seems to have been a regular chatterbox or at least the people that she was around learned a whole lot about her in a small amount of time. I just find that curious and wonder if others have learned information about people that they haven't revealed yet.

(2) It seems to me that the funeral people/morgue people/police would have provided/facilitated all the necessary paperwork to get an American body out of Australia rather than just leave it all up to Jack. Did he just bring the body with him to the airport? That scenario just doesn't make too much sense to me.

[Grimme]

I'd just like to give a salute and a welcome to Dubakawisewoman. Your very first post here at the "Lost" website in this thread was tremendous and thought-provoking. Here it is for those that might have missed it since I think it bears repeating:

Dubakawisewoman'sJack swam out with great energy to save Boone and the woman who drowned. It was only 5 days ago that Kate put those fairly clumsy stitches into the gash in his side, and surely they would have pulled loose with all that exertion?

This is the first Discussion Thread on the board that I've read all the way through, so it may have been discussed before--did we know before this that Jack's surname was Shepherd? Seems pretty appropriate for a guy who has decided to accept his responsibility to watch over his "flock."

And "Claire" means "light," and I get the feeling that Claire will be a character who brings a lot of light into the situation--she's already handled the "memorial" for the crash victims with a great deal of grace and dignity.

I didn't realize until I read this thread that the show's creators are saying that it's set in a normal reality--in what reality does a man who has been paralyzed for four years get up and run? The reversal of the paralysis, I can accept as a possibility, but surely Locke's leg muscles would have atrophied over the years? I'm surprised he could even stand.

Maybe the creators' idea of "reality" is just very different? Doesn't matter--I'm lovin' Lost anyway!

dub ;o)

[Grimme]

At the beginning of Episode 5, Jack laments Joanna's death saying that he never talked to her and that there are now 47 people on the island.

Near the end, it is mentioned that there are only 46 people on the island. Who else vanished or disappeared?

[Rachiepachie2001]

The Marshall? That's who I thought he was referring to when he said that there was now only 46 - the girl who drowned.

Cheers!

[azteclady]

Grimme,

Good questions! These are my answers:

== I believe Rachie is right, and that it was the guy with the shrapnel (aka the Marshall) who died. So there were 48, then 47, now 46.

== The incongruence of Joanna's drowning have been discussed a lot (most notably here: p073.ezboard.com/flostthe...47.topic), (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm2.showMess age?topicID=547.topic),) and it has been argued whether it can be considered a mistake by the writers.

Since I want to believe that a lot of care and thought have been put into the show, I'm looking for alternative explanations. That she was more tired and probably closer to dehydration than she thought, thus she misjudged her strength. That she wasn't 'an experienced diver' - how do we know she hadn't just gotten certified? That she was got a particularly debilitating cramp, or was bitten by a shark (don't make fun of me for this last one - it was originally maxpublic's suggestion! :D )

==Regarding Jack's father's body and the empty coffin, my take is that Jack is already operating at less than full capacity.We do not have an accurate timeline but what I get is that
--he is summoned by his mother,
--gets the next flight to Sydney (someone else posted on the availability of seats on these flights, as they are so very expensive),
--goes to his father's hotel and finds his father's been missing three days.
--Contacts the local authorities, files missing persons report or Aussie equivalent,
--finds out his father died drunk in an alley.

These would be enough to put a strain on anyone. Add to it the kind of relationship Jack seems to have had with his father and mother, and the scene at the airport with the counter person makes more sense: Jack tells her "In 16 hours I have to be in LAX, where a hearse is waiting for us" He continues "Why can't I wait? Why can't I bring him to a funeral home? Because I have to end this. I have to bury my father"

It wouldn't surprise me if he had rushed the release of the body without paying much attention to the proper procedure for international transport. As far as the police/morgue taking care of it, my experience repatriating the body of a young Mexican who died in a car crash in Puerto Rico (1990), was that it was the family -whom I helped because I worked for the Consulate there- who had to take care of all red tape. Could be it's the same in Australia.

Hope this helps!



Beto

PS Grimme, did you get my PM?

[akg]

about walt and the korean couple. korean people, even who dont know how to speak english, know how to say the word "korean" in english. im sure she got that point across to him. afterall, she took care of him for a while.
i live in japan now and speak very little japanese and you'd be very surprised at how easy it can be to get things across. i wouldnt think too much of it other than the fact that they just bonded a little

[Grimme]

Azteclady'sPS Grimme, did you get my PM?

Yes, and I appreciate it and also thanks for telling about the swimmer thread and for the input on my other questions about Episode 5.

[SayidsGirl]

I'm going on the assumption that Locke's problem was more mental than physical. Even at that, who has said that it has been a constant thing for four years? I've seen folks at the grocery store WALK into the store, then hop on one of the electric carts.
I'm inclined to believe Locke was totally paralyzed (psychosomatic or not) for a couple of reasons. He looked totally shocked when he was able to wiggle his toe just a little. And there was a close-up of the bottom of his shoe (in "Walkabout"), which showed no wear at all.

Speaking of shoes, the white ones Jack's father was wearing on the island still bother me. They may be a red herring, but in this series it seems like every little detail has the potential of being important. I'm curious if Jack's father was put in the coffin wearing the white shoes (maybe Jack couldn't find any others; bought him a nice navy blue suit for his coffin but forgot to buy shoes). It's important to me because if Jack's father, as he appeared on the island, was some sort of reanimated manifestation of his corpse, he would have been wearing his coffin clothes. And if he was a hallucination, it's interesting that Jack hallucinated him as he was dressed for the coffin rather than as he dressed in life.

The dolls--they looked really old-fashioned to me, not like something a child would have today (and way older than 16 years too). Makes me wonder if they're left over from some earlier group of stranded people on the island. (Or maybe there was just an antique dealer on the plane. :) )

One last afterthought--it's common in Western mythology for the hero to have to make some sort of journey through the underworld, to confront the dead. (Tolkien picked it up with Aragorn in the Paths of the Dead.) I wonder if Jack's encounter with his dead father may have served this purpose.

[JacksGirlfriend]

SG: As far as the dolls go, I'm pretty sure I saw the boxes they came from. Fairly fresh, not water logged. So I think the boxes of dolls were cargo on this plane.

Journey through the underworld: good thought. Lots of mythic heroes have done it. Jack may not be "mythic" yet but by the end of this show, he may well be on his way to legend.

JacksGirl

[proteus74]

Not good at all. He probably didn't want to risk his stash.

[MiladyRomance]

Hi!

Good point, Baron X... I didn't think about the myocardial infraction when I had posted that. la dee dee...:p

Take Care and God Bless,
~* Kelly :)


Have we abandoned the "no supernatural" ? I've counted about 18 posts they have discussed Jack's father being alive. How are they proposing this was accomplished? If a medical examiner determines you had a myocardial infarction, I am sure he has cut you open to make that determination. Once autopsied, you don't come back from the white light through conventional means.

[Baron X]

I'm glad I did not scare you off. Keep at it.

[morbius47]

Jack's dad was a hallucination. Jack "saw" his dad waist deep in the ocean. An unspecified amount of time later, he "saw" his dad in the jungle. He was not wet, which could mean he dried since Jack "saw" him in the ocean. However, he was wearing the same suit, and it was still well pressed. Also, when Jack was sitting by a fire, he "heard" his father walk behind him clinking ice in a glass. If his dad were really there, when did he get the glass. More importantly, where would he get the ice. He was a figment of Jack's imagination.

[snogirlz]

Has anyone noticed how the name 'White Rabbit' just seemed to go along with the story so well? (Almost too well maybe!)
I mean, we all know that Jack was chasing a white rabbit (his dad) through the woods, but what about the other white rabbits that were there too?

Like Charlie's fingers, they still said "LATE". (white rabbit in Alice and Wonderland- he always said "Late" too.

Or what about Sawyer's book "Watership Down" (it's about rabbits right?)

Did anyone notice anything else like that that I missed?

From the way LOST has been going so far...It seems to be so full of symbolism. Maybe those white rabbits are symbolic of something?

I don't know. Just a thought. Sorry if this point's been brought up already somewhere else. I looked through alot of the posts. But not all of them. There's a lot!:\

[cccourt]

Yes snoz: we noticed. Welcome...and you might want to check some older posts. JJ A and DL love to do this. Much specualation on Tabula Rasa...all most too predictable ..the symbolism that is! Elementary.

[Stu1961]

Did anyone notice anything else like that that I missed?

This is probably a stretch (though I don't think I should put anything past these writers) but, the tatoo on Charlies arm "Living is easy with eyes closed" is a line from The Beatles' John Lennon penned song Strawberry Fields Forever, which shares a silmilar theme with Lewis Carol's Alice in Wonderland: The difficult transition from adolesence to adulthood.*

One of the rabbits from Watership Down is named Strawberry!? (Okay, I'm sure I'm losing it there)

*side note: John Lennon was a huge fan of Lewis Carol (perhaps the major influence). Lennon credited The lyrics from Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds as being inspired by Though the Looking Glass.

[TitanicScholar]

Where was Jack's father's body when Jack opened the casket?!?! Someone please respond!

[Stu1961]

Where was Jack's father's body when Jack opened the casket?!?! Someone please respond!

Australia.

Do you really think Jack's plea would be sufficient to overide airline regulations? I hope not. He probably would have had a better chance begging to fly the plane. If Jack became anymore animated/beligerant than what he was already exhibiting .. I doubt they would have let him on board.

[azteclady]

Titanic, Welcome!

You may want to check the coffin threads in this forum and in the Theories and Speculations forum - this has been discussed at length there, and several explanations have been proposed.

I'm personally with Stu and others, thinking that the body is in Sydney, while procedure is followed and paperwork done, so that it can *then* be transported to the US


Beto

[MiladyRomance]

Hi Baron X,

Nope, I'm good :)

I've had fun posting on here with y'all. :D

Take Care and God Bless,
~* Kelly :)

I'm glad I did not scare you off. Keep at it.

[Master Xander]

Reopening thread for tonight's rerun.

[lockemeup]

Some random thoughts about this episode...

I still do not understand why noone else came out in the water, especially once they realized that there were two people drowning.

The one thing I am noticing upon second viewing of these episodes is that, for every storyline that is continued throughout the episodes, there are many (Locke's monster? The coffin? The monster? Rose?) that are just dropped, with no further explanation.

While I am glad to see these reruns, and I understand the omission of 3 and 6, it still would have been nice to see them all in a row.

And one more thought - I still vote for Boone as the crazy one. I think he has delusions of grandeur. How can he possibly be a lifeguard? He couldn't do CPR on Rose properly, and he nearly drowned trying to save Joanna.

Thanks for reading! I love this board!

[GuyontheRight]

Hey, new guys thoughts here...

Viewing the episodes again last night was a real treat. One of the things that caught my eye (which i do not think has been mentioned yet on this forum) is a set of military BDUs in one of the suitcases Kate is going through as she seperates the "practical" clothes from the nonpractical. The pattern is most definetly American, not Australian or Republican Gaurd, which could indicate somone on the plane has a military backround. At least i think, the scene went so fact it could just be a case of some outback adventure type clothing. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[luxe]

Im surprised more people havent posted since last night. I agree--I have always wondered why no one else went in the water. You would think someone would say "No, you just went out, let me!" Or that they would go half way to help instead of standing on the shore watching.

I still cant figure out Jack's dad either. Anyone have new observations on him? Is he just an hallucination--and if so, could Jack be the one on the mind altering drugs? With the casket empty it makes me think the "others" may have taken the body for some reason.

[shootingstar05]

I'm on the same page about no one else rushing out to save Joanna from drowning. Adds a more dramatic feel I guess.
As for Jack's dad, this is the reason I suspect he is the one on the mind altering meds, unless there is some other explanation which I can't seem to figure out. We'll just have to wait and see......argh.

[Hodgepodge]

White Rabbit

Did Jack see Boone in the water trying to save the woman? I didn't until he brought him ashore. It didn't seem Boone was anywhere near the spot where the woman was going down.

Do we have any idea what Jack's father was doing in Australia? I always assumed he'd moved his practice there because he couldn't practice anywhere in the States. Also, is it every stated Jack's father's cause of death? I just noticed he was taking a lot of pills. I'm wondering was it a combination of pills and boozes?

Something I hadn't noticed before. After Locke sees the monster he brings the boar back to the beach. Then when Jack goes missing, he tells Sayid and Kate that he'll go out and find Jack because, "I know where to look." I think this is when Locke became possessed.

I thought after watching the episode again, it was strange that the hallucination of Jack's father, if that's what it was, would lead him to his death? Remember, Locke had to save him from falling off the cliff.

Was that a random noise that gave Jack the impetus to find the cave/oasis, or was he lured there by the island?

[qch13]

didn't Kate say that Joanna changed to their flight at the last minute and she was not suppose to be there. maybe the island got rid of her. why was she out in the ocean anyway.