Education vs Experience

[Houkou]

I'm at a point in life where I'm finally looking at going to university and getting a degree. At the moment, all the loans are taken out, and everything is signed up for, but due to accomodation problems I might have to defer until next year when there's room. I won't be told until a week before the start of term, which is really damn useful.. though at the minute I don't actually have money for food and supplies, loans only cover tuition fees and the bare minimum for accomodation.

Anyway, all this fuss is really beginning to put me off-it's so much money (which I cannot really afford) for what might not help get work in the future. I keep reading about all these stories of students going and finding at the end it's just as hard to get work, or finding a job and having to start at the very bottom regardless.

It half seems that experience is more important; that it's better to spend the three years working up the ladder, as it were. Obviously this isn't the case for all career paths, but it's really making me question what to go for. I want a degree (probably one of those 'prove I'm not stupid' kind of things XD ), but is it worth it?

In my case, I'd like to go down the art path and become a concept artist/illustrator/freelance artist, or more likely, get into the field of animal welfare and conservation. The degree I'm going for is an Animal Behaviour and Welfare (BSc Hons). In both cases, you could argue either way for education or experience being most important (though there's no way I'm taking an art degree). I've emailed a load of zoos, parks and organisations to ask them, and the responses so far have been split.

So, my question to all of you.. what did you find/have you found was more important to you? Did you get along just fine without higher education? Was your degree worth the time and cost?

Share your experiences. :D

I really hope this is in the right forum, sorry if I posted in the wrong place

[MinaKitty]

I went through college, and I think the effort was worth it for me, if not for the career after, then for my own edification.

Lots of schools offer co-op programs that would combine both aspects of education and real-life experience. Students can attend classes one semester and work one semester. Maybe that is something you could explore.

[Found in the Land of Lost]

I don't have a "real" degree. I went to a tech/vocational school and got what's called a Technical Associates Degree. :rolleyez:

In my experience and that of those I've talked to about this subject, a degree is not an advantage over equal amounts of experience when first starting out your career. The 2 or 4 years of college will not make you more hireable right away than 2 to 4 years of relevant work experience in most cases.

However, after you've worked your way up the ladder for a good while, the lack of a degree can be a big stumbling block when it comes to getting management or high-level positions in alot of companies. I am experiencing that now, sort of. I've been passed over for a couple of positions that I really wanted because the other person had a degree, even though I'm way more knowledgeable in our field and better at what we do.

I guess it really depends on what your goals are or what you think they might be. If you skip it, though, you might kick yourself later.

Good luck! :)

[MaxPower]

Good post, Liz.

I would say that you learn more from experience...almost 100% of the time. But you will have more opportunities to experience different things with a degree. If you have the means, (even if "the means" means you're in debt for the school loans) why limit yourself?

[airlybird]

I would urge you too to pursue Uni and getting a degree Houkou, but that's probably got a lot to do with me being the mother of a child nearing University age...I do think though that having the qualifications on paper as opposed to being "time served" kinda thing has got to be a bonus when applying for a job though.
I know that certain Universities in this country, ones such as Lincoln for instance garuantee that if you don't get a job within a year of graduating were your earning over a certain amount per year, than you don't have to pay any of your fees back, so it may be worth looking into which others offer that.
Also you could look into volantary work with animal shelters and the RSPCA...I know that studying and then working in your spare time for nothing isn't very appealing, but it goes a long way in gaining experience and also proving your character to a lot of employees, and if a paid job became available there, you'd likely be the first they'l offer it too.
As for what's most important to me...Well i honestly can say with hindsight, that i wish i'd had the chance to opt for the higher education when i was younger (didn't knuckle down enough at the time, so i didn't make the cut) the training i'm doing now has cost me 5 grand so far and it's a lot harder to train whilst i still have to work at a job i hate to keep the money coming in so i can support myself and my kids...But all you can do is get as much info and advice from all the organizations in the field that you're looking into going so you can make the best educated choice you can, which it's seems like you're doing, so good luck in whatever you decide.

[ozchick]

As has been stated, it really does depend on the field you go into. That said, I found college to be one of the best experiences of my life. As well as a degree, it gives you the opportunity to network, network, network. So often, knowing the right people (or knowing someone, who knows someone else, who's sister in law has a position at her company) makes all the difference when trying to get a job. Plus, there are resources through the school you can take advantage of: programs, and alumni connections, and job placement services, and that magical document the student ID, which can get you into so many things at a discount or even free.

You have to make the choice that's right for you. For me, despite the fact that much to my disappointment my current job has nothing to do with my degree, I wouldn't have traded college for anything.

[John Charles]

This is a terrific thread Houkou. I wish I had started it.

There are so many variables to weigh in one's own life that you will need to qualify all of these sincere and candid offerings here on this message board.

I didn't finish college. I couldn't stand it. I never liked school. I loved learning, but school, for me, was hell on earth. It's just not a good educational format for me.

4 years or more of successful experience in a position is going to get the job over the fresh 4 year grad in most cases, unless of course the position requires a dregree. If you want to do something that requires a degree, well, your choice is clear.

As far as a long term career goes:

after you've worked your way up the ladder for a good while, the lack of a degree can be a big stumbling block when it comes to getting management or high-level positions in a lot of companies.

FiTLoL nails this. However, notice she says 'a lot of companies'. It's the proper phrasing because it is not by any means true in all companies. Smaller companies will reward your loyalty moreso than large corporations. Large corporations may have a higher ladder to climb, but even many of the degreed professionals don't get near the top.

You also need to consider who you are. Are you a go getter? Do you take the bull by the horns? Or, do you just want a decent paying job so that you can have a nice living? If it's the latter, I would suggest getting your degree, you're going to need it.

Another thing to do is take a hard look at the job market. Are there many entry level positions you might step into now where you believe you would perform well enough to merit advancement?

Your finances and current domestic situation can make a difference too. Can you afford to spend 4 years in college? Will the job market afford you the opportunity to repay any costs associated with your education.

Those are my thoughts. Now I've got to get back to work (which is code for back to posting ;))

[strandediniowa]

Houkou - All of the advice and comments given here are sound. Whether or not you need a certain degree to work in any given field of course depends on that field. I agree that you learn much more about a job through experience, and also agree that many times the lack of a degree will keep you from advancing within your field. Witness the number of working adults who go back to school to get either associate, bachelors or more advanced degrees. Their companies often help pay for that education because they value it so highly.

I have a doctorate degree - so I spent more than a few years in college. While parts of it were a huge pain, and it was expensive, I also had a very good time! I also made some great people who remain friends to this day (and this was over twenty years ago) and also made valuable contacts that continue to serve me well.

Another thing you might consider is the perspective that going through the process of getting a degree will give you. While most of what you learn in school is background for what you will learn at your job, you may gain insight into other ways of thinking, evaluating, etc. that you might not get otherwise. This would come from the subject matter, and the variety of students and professors with whom you would interact.

Finally, once you have the degree then it is yours, and you will be proud of yourself for that achievement for the rest of your life. No one can take that away from you, and, rightly or wrongly, will give you instant credibility in certain circles where that will be to your advantage.

Good luck!

[scotpgot]

I'm going to give this a thorough read later, sorry I don't have the time right now.

One bit of wisdom I've heard is the difference between, for instance, "Art School" and "Artist School". I have some experience with the creative side of things. And it is probably obvious that having a degree or not matters not one bit.

Also, I'd like to say that "proving you're not stupid" is NOT AT ALL a good reason to go to Uni. There's plenty of smart people who didn't go to graduate/post-graduate degrees at all, and more than plenty of others who got their "vocational" degrees. Neither of those things means you're less talented or less intelligent than someone who went to Uni.

When I graduated, it was from a kind of individualized program, and so the professors were kind enough to have a meeting as part of the outgoing process. Unanimously they said that University is good pretty much for your first one or two jobs. After that, it's how you did at THOSE jobs that really makes the difference in the next hire.

On the other hand, some fields WILL require you have a degree. I SERIOUSLY suggest doing homework/talking to people who are in the field before deciding. Don't be afraid to call people up; you'd be amazed how friendly people are when you simply ask them about themselves or ask them for advice.

[Dew]

I received my AA degree in DP back in oh 1973 :eek: It worked well for me. I was in telecommunications for 30 years at a decent level of mgmt and making good money at the time. I originally wanted to be a surgeon. lol Today I couldn't make anything in the IT field. I am beyond wilted lettuce, I am compost. However, if I could work and I never thought I would miss work, I would me a managerial mentor. Yeah one can get a piece of paper for this but experience is the key. Before I became ill I was set to make $1.5 to 2.5k+ a day as a consultant then life interrupted.

With a bit of ingenuity, one can take what they are particularly good in life at and make it into a career. Just look at mom's who start businesses and some just have a HS diploma.

Experience or education, hmmm, depends on if you want to play the business game or be an entrepreneur. :Cheers:

[John]

I didn't finish my AAS in Electrical Engineering, and as such didn't go on to finish out my BS, and I regret it. When I got into my first "good" job in the computer field, the lack of a degree was a big setback, automatically placing me in a tech position rather than an engineering position. Stock options, compensation, and benefits were all at a lower level than I would have obtained if I had that piece of paper stating that I had jumped through the hoops. In my case, I didn't have the experience to offset the lack of a degree in the eyes of the company. A few years later, that lack of a degree was again an issue, and I was laid off. That set me back over four years.

Now that many years have passed and my skill level has increased substantially, I'm able ot overcome the lack of a degree by sheer brute force of experience and job performance. In a recent discussion, my manager (this has been echoed by others since then) stated that he could put someone fresh out of school into my job, but they wouldn't have the first clue how to tackle the job, where I'm able to excel at everything that is thrown at me. Real world experience is very valuable, where a degree just says that you stuck it out and got the paper.

The real kicker is the position that I would be in had I completed the degree and also carried the experience that I have. The difference in lost compensation over the last decade alone is staggering. I would have surpassed my current Senior Systems Engineer classification, and would be working at a much higher level. My skill set would be a bit more rounded, and I would have climbed the ladder much more quickly. I might not be as good in the specific area that I currently am, but I would be a better fit for more types of jobs. That part is adjustable with some additional classification courses that I could (and probably will) take, but it doesn't offset the loss in compensation over the last 16 years.

Time and money on the line, the degree won't hurt. The lack of a degree certainly will impact your career at some point. It might not impact you now or next year, but over time, that degree is very valuable. If I could go back, I'm certain that I would find a way to continue in school. Now that I'm pushing 40, going back to school and starting all over again is a scary prospect.

[LostVoyeur]

All these posts are perfect and not much more to add but my experience...

I started college wayyyy back when, at the time I wanted to major in graphic design but waaayyyy back when that was unheard of. My father wanted me to take computer science because no daughter of his would be a starving artist. At that time computers were still a new thing and I didn't want to do that. So I left school.
I went to work for the government until I decided...well 20 years later I am still with the government without a degree doing a job that I had to FIGHT to get because it requires a degree. I was told that I was both under qualified and over qualified for this job, because I did not have a degree. basically I could do the job of the higher ups but I did not have the piece of paper to prove it. After a total of 16 years with the government (I left for 4 years) I am still in what is considered an entry level job that anyone off the street with a degree would get. I say get the degree no matter what it is in and enjoy the time of still being young enough to enjoy college life!

ETA....glad I'm not the only one TPTP

[scotpgot]

I didn't finish my AAS in Electrical Engineering, and as such didn't go on to finish out my BS, and I regret it. When I got into my first "good" job in the computer field, the lack of a degree was a big setback, automatically placing me in a tech position rather than an engineering position. Stock options, compensation, and benefits were all at a lower level than I would have obtained if I had that piece of paper stating that I had jumped through the hoops. In my case, I didn't have the experience to offset the lack of a degree in the eyes of the company. A few years later, that lack of a degree was again an issue, and I was laid off. That set me back over four years.

Now that many years have passed and my skill level has increased substantially, I'm able ot overcome the lack of a degree by sheer brute force of experience and job performance. In a recent discussion, my manager (this has been echoed by others since then) stated that he could put someone fresh out of school into my job, but they wouldn't have the first clue how to tackle the job, where I'm able to excel at everything that is thrown at me. Real world experience is very valuable, where a degree just says that you stuck it out and got the paper.

The real kicker is the position that I would be in had I completed the degree and also carried the experience that I have. The difference in lost compensation over the last decade alone is staggering. I would have surpassed my current Senior Systems Engineer classification, and would be working at a much higher level. My skill set would be a bit more rounded, and I would have climbed the ladder much more quickly. I might not be as good in the specific area that I currently am, but I would be a better fit for more types of jobs. That part is adjustable with some additional classification courses that I could (and probably will) take, but it doesn't offset the loss in compensation over the last 16 years.

Time and money on the line, the degree won't hurt. The lack of a degree certainly will impact your career at some point. It might not impact you now or next year, but over time, that degree is very valuable. If I could go back, I'm certain that I would find a way to continue in school. Now that I'm pushing 40, going back to school and starting all over again is a scary prospect.
Imagine all that. And especially for a job where everything you learn in school is out-of-date within 8 mos.

[sgtdraino]

As others have said, it really depends on the kind of field you are going into. Some fields may not require higher degrees, but most require at least some level of certified training before you qualify. I have a Masters but make relatively little as a cop, whereas my brother has no degree at all (but various certifications) and makes more than any other member of my family in the computer field. But then my fiancee also has no degree, and is trying like hell (and finding it very difficult) to get out of the food service/restaurant industry.

My advice to you, is to talk to some successful people in the field you want to get into, and find out what route they took. You will quickly get a concensus of what works. Emulate the people you want to be like. What worked for them, can also work for you. Just be sure to recognize someone's lucky break as just that: Something you might not get.

[Annie]

Houkou, I don't want to appear negative, but I believe a person can be over-
educated. I started with Univ. Degree in Liberal Arts. This, to me, is the
most important part of education. The undergrad degree opens
doors for all types of interests that may become life-long for you. It gives
you experience with all the basic academic areas and some find their calling.
It seems today, most people need that Bachelor's degree.

Then I was offered a fellowship in Education. I did want to teach and I
saw this as an opportunity to obtain a teaching certificate. I completed
the Master's Degree, but what I should have done was just taken
the teacher's courses required for the certificate. Looking back it seems
important to experience life as well education and gain practical
experience as well as that related to your field.

In teaching your salary increases as you increase the number of courses
you have taken. I went ahead and pursued both a supervisor's and
principals's certificate and received both. Actually I used both (sup. positions
and acting VP) but the best and most rewarding job is in the classroom.
Luckily, because I was in an acting position, it was easy to return to the
classroom.

What I'm saying is too much education can push you into directions in which
you might not even have considered. The Bachelor's degree seems
essential to me though. It seems essential for an individual's personal
growth as well as for their employment.

[Houkou]

Wow, there have been some fantastic replies to this. I didn't mean it to be a post about myself, but the advice given has all been great, and I'm grateful for it, it all helps. All the replies have been really interesting and thought provoking too :)

Lots of schools offer co-op programs that would combine both aspects of education and real-life experience. Students can attend classes one semester and work one semester. Maybe that is something you could explore.

I looked into that too; apart from practical experience with the animals on site, work experience isn't available with the course I picked. Is a semester the same as term? Here with a lot of subjects you can usually pick either an normal 3 year course, or take a 4 year course, where one whole year is devoted to work experience, and the rest the studying-a sandwich course, I think they're called.


Also you could look into volantary work with animal shelters and the RSPCA...I know that studying and then working in your spare time for nothing isn't very appealing, but it goes a long way in gaining experience and also proving your character to a lot of employees, and if a paid job became available there, you'd likely be the first they'l offer it too.

On the other hand, some fields WILL require you have a degree. I SERIOUSLY suggest doing homework/talking to people who are in the field before deciding. Don't be afraid to call people up; you'd be amazed how friendly people are when you simply ask them about themselves or ask them for advice.

My advice to you, is to talk to some successful people in the field you want to get into, and find out what route they took. You will quickly get a concensus of what works. Emulate the people you want to be like. What worked for them, can also work for you. Just be sure to recognize someone's lucky break as just that: Something you might not get.

Yep, I've been doing all that like I wrote in the OP. The email responses have been mixed, but most of the replies have been useful. :)

[John Charles]

I think you should blow off school and postwhore here instead.

[Houkou]

I think you should blow off school and postwhore here instead.

You mean I'm not doing a good enough job at the moment? :mad:

[Annie]

Houkou, I believe you are doing an excellent job :). They were good suggestions.
I'm sorry I went off on a tangent and perhaps sounded preachy or not
helpful. I wish you all of the best.

[Houkou]

Houkou, I believe you are doing an excellent job :). They were good suggestions.
I'm sorry I went off on a tangent and perhaps sounded preachy or not
helpful. I wish you all of the best.

Nope, any and all thoughts are welcome, and it's always good to hear the other side of things ;)

[DarthKitty]

School was definitely worth it to me. Experience plays a huge role in the jobs I apply for now, but I wouldn't even be considered for them without a degree. Not sure what field you are looking at, but education is never a bad thing to pursue, imo.

In summary, go to school! You have time to get the experience after you graduate. By the time you hit my age, you will thankful that you have both. Good luck! :)