EPISODE 16 ----- OUTLAWS

[truffula]

As we inch closer to Season Two....:D

The original thread can be found here:
p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm40.showMes sage?topicID=17.topic (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm40.showMes sage?topicID=17.topic)

Here are my notes from my first runthru of Season One for this episode:

LOST Season One - Episode 16 - Outlaws
Sawyer backstory #2

Opens with Young Saywer's Eye - in FB as father kills mother and himself
Sawyer wakes up to boar in tent - I thought there were NO MORE BOAR!! (at least on this part of the island)
Sawyer HEARS WHISPERS - I hear (I think):
Give us.....(lots i cant make out)....i know she's in there.....It'll come back around (said by shrimp guy later in FB)
Sawyer asks specifically what Sayid heard, he answers with a question - why, did you hear something - to which Sawyer lies and says NO.

FB 1 - Sawyer is interrupted by old pal Hibbs (of Terminator 2 fame)
Sawyer pissed at Hibbs for something they call "the Tampa Job", so Hibbs gives Sawyer the name/location of man who conned his parents, the Real Sawyer (But we find out later this is just a con in a con, its NOT the real sawyer)
Old man Parks, who helped them with job in Atlanta, "found" this guy:
Frank Duckett - shrimp truck guy

Jack takes guns back. All but Sawyers. Kate will get it back
More WHISPERS - "It'll come back around" is all i can pick up
Right after whispers Sawyer gets attacked by boar
"you're gonna get yourself LOST or worse" - Kate to Sawyer on hunting Boar alone.

FB 2 - Sawyer buys gun in Australia

Ethan is buried by Charlie and Hurley - comments about Ethans rise from the grave sends netheads whirling. HE IS DEAD.
Hurley to Sayid - "He (charlie) shot him (ethan) in the chest 4 times - actually it was 6, but nice to see the numbers from Hurley.
Kate wants Carte Blanche from Sawyer to help with Boar.
I Never: s-kissed a man, k-implied that shes been to college when she never has, s-been to disneyland, neither kate, k-wore pink, sawyer has, s-voted democrat, k-voted at all, s-been in love, kate has, k-one night stand, sawyer HAS, s-been married, KATE HAS BEEN MARRIED - a clue? k-carried around a letter for 20 years (Sawyer is 28?), Sawyer and Kate have both killed a man(we see both)
Boar tore though and pissed on Sawyers stuff but NOT Kates
Locke shows up "looking for salvage from plane" (still?) - 3 times boar attacked Sawyer - Locke tells story of sister Jeannie, the dog (Terry's fav scene) 6 months after funeral, a GOLDEN RETRIEVER (Vincent?) shows up and Lockes fostermom thought it was Jeannie, mother passed 5 years later (timeline)
Thought dog/Jeannie was letting mom "OFF THE HOOK" for accident - There it is AGAIN!!! Second time we hear this line.

FB 3 - Sawyer confronts Duckett 1st time, Sawyers index fingernail on left hand is Black (injury?), gives Duckett his REAL NAME - JAMES, whimps out, goes to bar to meet....Dr. Christian Sheppard!! Sawyer seen smoking in bar (answers question about him being a smoker precrash) Christian makes reference to Fate by saying thats why the Sox will never win the series (funny, they DID this year!!)
Christian tells Sawyer his sob story about Jack without mentioning names.
QUESTION - How does Sawyer know Jack's father's name? Sawyer gives his, but Christian does NOT.

Kate "strands" Sawyer in jungle after he nabs piglet

FB 4 - Sawyer shoots Duckett. "It'll come back around" says Duckett as he dies.

Sawyer cant kill boar. Realizes situation. Now we will begin to see a nicer Sawyer, not as much of a jerk.
"Its just a boar" - yeah, but its also FOOD for everyone - Shoot it dammit!!
Raft #1 is underway - end on Night 30?
Sawyer gives gun to Jack, has chance to tell him about Christian, doesnt (save that for Exodus 1).
LOST.

2 hours til rerun. Be back later.
Discuss On,
Peace,
Truff

[Hodgepodge]

truffula says:...Boar tore though and pissed on Sawyers stuff but NOT Kates
Locke shows up "looking for salvage from plane" (still?) - 3 times boar attacked Sawyer - Locke tells story of sister Jeannie, the dog (Terry's fav scene) 6 months after funeral, a GOLDEN RETRIEVER (Vincent?) shows up and Lockes fostermom thought it was Jeannie, mother passed 5 years later (timeline)...Does anyone not believe this was one of Locke's little journeys? He just happen to show up the next morning. Yeah right! I wouldn't put it pass Locke to piss on Sawyer's stuff to teach him the lesson.


truffula also says:FB 3 - Sawyer confronts Duckett 1st time, Sawyers index fingernail on left hand is Black (injury?),...Truffula, you missed Hibbs' missing finger. Look when he's having the drink in Sawyer's apartment room.

[equinox]

truffula wrote:
How does Sawyer know Jack's father's name?

Could it just be that their conversation went on after the part of it that we saw on screen? Christian could have told his first name when the first of them left the bar.

[Lost In His Eyes]

Yeah right! I wouldn't put it pass Locke to piss on Sawyer's stuff to teach him the lesson.

:rollin Weird, I can see him doing that too, Hodge!


I gotta bring it up, even though I know it's probably been discussed to death-

When Charlie and Hurley are burrying Ethan you can cleary see him breathing. Or see the tarp moving up and down for whatever reason, whatever you believe. But, there's got to be a reason why TPTB would shoot that part of the scene from that angle. To show Ethan still breathing? What other reason could there be? What do you guys think?

[Hodgepodge]

Lost In His Eyes says:...When Charlie and Hurley are burrying Ethan you can cleary see him breathing. Or see the tarp moving up and down for whatever reason, whatever you believe. But, there's got to be a reason why TPTB would shoot that part of the scene from that angle. To show Ethan still breathing? What other reason could there be? What do you guys think?I guess it's hard for me to believe anybody is dead on Lost. I believe Ethan (or Ethan clone) is still alive. And lets not mention *whistles*. I take that back! I think Boone's gone forever.

But according to TPTB, Ethan is dead and buried! Like they haven't lied to us before.

[Lost In His Eyes]

Yeah, I think Boone is gone forever too. He will be missed... But Ethan is a totally different story. We don't really know anything about him. He was on the island before the crash, he could be anything. I think there is a chance that he might not be dead, that maybe we'll see him again...

Also, Locke tells that story about his 'mother' and his 'sister' and the dog. Do you really think he doesn't believe that the dog was his 'sister'? And do you think that there could be any deeper connection between his story and the island? I just think it's weird that TPTB would have him tell a story like that if it didn't have some connection somewhere. I know it connects with Sawyer and his boar problem and his past. But can anyone think of anything else?

[Homer Noodleman]

No, no ,no... Locke was following Kate, not Sawyer. He's gotta keep an eye on his future Jungle Queen.

[truffula]

After watchin the rerun, the only thing I have to add is -
At the end when Sawyer gives Jack the gun, I thought it was funny how when Sawyer realizes that it was Jack's father he was talkin to in the bar, Jack was chopping wood, and Sawyer gave Jack a gun; and in Exodus 1, when Sawyer admits to Jack about meeting his father, Sawyer is chopping wood, and Jack gives Sawyer a gun.

Now on to some discussions....
Hodge said:
I wouldn't put it pass Locke to piss on Sawyer's stuff to teach him the lesson.
:rollin that is too much!! :rollin funny, possibly true (but I doubt it, it's too gross of an idea)
And thanks for the "tip" or lack of a tip of a finger on Hibbs. I will be sure to cap it and check which finger on which hand, as I feel that LOST limbs are somehow connected.

Austrasiel - As I rewatched tonight I thought the same thing you posted. We do NOT see Sawyer leave the bar. The conversation coud've totally gone on for a few more drinks. Christian didn't seem that loaded at that time, and from what the coroner said, he was VERY intoxicated when he died (I might be off a little on this fact). So it would seem the good Doctor milked Sawyer for a few more drinks and convinced him to go shoot Duckett somehow. And in this whole conversation, they exchanged names.

LostInHisEyes said:
But, there's got to be a reason why TPTB would shoot that part of the scene from that angle. To show Ethan still breathing? What other reason could there be? What do you guys think?
I was in the camp of "He's DEAD, let it go" until I saw the twins on the boat in Exodus 2. Who knows now. Bill Mapother has not commented on whether or not he'll ever return to LOST (I asked him on Fuselage), but I get the feeling he will...ya know, 4th or 5th season, Claire strollin through the jungle with Charlie and Aaron, and WHAM!! ETHAN(clone)!!!
It would be REALLY creepy, cause I'm sure they're gonna throw so much at us over the next few Seasons that we'll totally disregard the whole Ethan thing, and them WHAM!!

Good discussions in here tonight. The Truffula is happy. :D

Peace,
Truff

[clayseason1]

So when Hibbs gives Sawyer - Ducket's "jacket" (or police file), who is this "Tony" (did I hear that right) that pulled the "jacket"? Is he a policeman? Is he a policeman that could be connected to Sawyer or Boone or Kate later on?

[MJBinNC]

I had forgotten how much I had liked this episode until tonight. The "I have never" game was definite insight into kate and sawyer. loved it.

[lostmio]

...When Charlie and Hurley are burrying Ethan you can cleary see him breathing. Or see the tarp moving up and down for whatever reason, whatever you believe.

If you have it on tape, watch it again carefully and you'll see that it's the gentle up-and-down motion of the ocean in the background that makes the tarp look like it's moving.
I like to think they deliberately framed the shot that way to play on Hurley's comment about Ethan rising from the dead.

When they cut to the next scene, the ocean is again in the background. There's a lot of rolling surf and action in the foreground but if you ignore that and look at the line where the ocean meets the sky, you'll see that same gentle up-and-down.

[Lost In His Eyes]

^I don't have it on tape, but I'll look at some screen caps, since the DVD is so far away. I'll see if I can see what you're talking about in a screencap or two.

[truffula]

Biscuitmom said:
If you have it on tape, watch it again carefully and you'll see that it's the gentle up-and-down motion of the ocean in the background that makes the tarp look like it's moving.
Yes, it does. And that just wraps up that whole angle in a neat little package doesn't it....too convenient, but probably right. I did a little digging, and I saw something about Bill Mapother being a regular on some new show in the fall on network tv (probably will tank like SO many others) so I would definitely rule out any possilbe Ethan return in S2.
But, I'm NOT convinced. Yet. Once again, too little info.

Peace,
Truff

[Brian]

Hodge,
And lets not mention *whistles*
Keep the faith, Hodge! :) If it turns out in this twisted plot-line that you're indeed correct about *whistles*, just WOW! :)
-----------------------

Yeah it has been discussed here before and, just so I can break some of my own rules, I won't link to it (it's late and I don't feel like looking for it, if it's even still around. *kicks* EZ), but I'll just say that yes, I say Ethan was breathing as well.

This was discussed to death and even my wife asked, "Are you sure that wasn't the wind blowing his shirt around?" Well, not unless Mother Nature suddenly developed a sense of humor and started blowing wind up and down rather than left or right! I was so focussed on his hand the first time I missed the shirt moving but I saw it this time! Hah! There you go Hodge, one I didn't miss! :) Actually I was looking for it and a team of mules couldn't have dragged me away from the TV this time around! I don't think we've seen the last of Ethan, or his clones, or......y'all have read this stuff already so I'll stop. I say he was breathing! What we need to do is get KF2 to capture it, or we could just wait 'till 9/6 and watch it yet again! :)
ETA : While it's really a stretch to believe Ethan's still alive, they showed that scene, from that angle, with whatever movement was there, for a reason. They could have left that perspective of the scene on the cutting room floor, but they didn't. There's something there, meaning, there's a reason they chose to show it. Whether it's about Ethan being alive or not is irrelevant, TPTB have said that everything is shown for a reason. Perhaps we just don't know the reason for that scene yet!

Onto another subject. I said this after Exodus and I'll say it again now. Sawyer should have told Jack about meeting his dad. That sly-ass grin and eye-movement was a signal. Sawyer should have done the right thing in this episode. However, I'm just glad he did it in Exodus but I really think he should have said something to Jack this time.

This show relays so much through body-movement that it's ridiculous. That's easy to say now, we know the ending of S1, but looking back, man did they "drop anvils" (to steal one of Homer's analogies) all over the place or what?

Great episode in all though. For me, I liked this episode because we learned about Sawyer and his discussion in the bar with Christian (sp?). That was one of two defining moments for me. The other was when Sawyer looked into the eyes of the boar and put down the gun.

[equinox]

truffula wrote:
lack of a tip of a finger on Hibbs. I will be sure to cap it and check which finger on which hand
I remember that I checked last time we discussed it and there were two or three good pictures of that scene either here at Lost-TV or at Lost-media. It was the ring finger on the left hand.

[lostmio]

Sawyer gets the best lines because Josh Holloway delivers them so damned good. An Emmy-worthy performance.

After this second viewing, I'm rearranging my list: Outlaws. was. the. best. season. 1. episode.

All that killing. All that remorse. And just-short-of-overkill feel-good redemption. Loved it.

Sayid. Kate. Sawyer. Charlie. Boone. And that's just season 1, bet we hear about more in season 2.
With so many killers crash-landing on the island, who needs the Others and the Monster(s)? Just give our Losts enough time to run amuck and they'll eventually kill each other off - some will be revenge and some will be oops. Locke and Boone are just the beginning.
The lucky ones will get killed first and the jinxed ones will have to suffer all that remorse and angst until it's their turn to be killed. Locke will probably be the last man standing.

First time around I missed that eerie echo between Locke's golden retriever and Vincent: "This golden retriever comes padding up our driveway, walks right into our house, sits down on the floor, and looks right at my mother there on the couch."
Locke may be the last man standing, but my money's on Vincent to be the last creature standing.

[Lost In His Eyes]

I look at a couple screencaps of Hurley, Charlie and 'dead' Ethan, and I can't really tell if it is waves causing the movement. I don't think it is because it looks like the line of the water is below the height of Ethan's chest. I hope that makes sense... But I'll defidently take another look when I get the DVD, just to make sure!

[lostmio]

Truf: Jack was chopping wood, and Sawyer gave Jack a gun; and in Exodus 1, when Sawyer admits to Jack about meeting his father, Sawyer is chopping wood, and Jack gives Sawyer a gun.

Oh, thanks for that, I'm *loving* it.

[lostmio]

So when Hibbs gives Sawyer - Ducket's "jacket" (or police file), who is this "Tony" (did I hear that right) that pulled the "jacket"?

Anthony Cooper, Locke's father? :eek

[Chinamom]

Truff, WOW, what a great observation re: woodchopping and guns. Haven't read that anywhere here before. That kind of connection just has to be intentional, don't you think?

And more kudos to you, biscuitmom--I completely missed the connection between Vincent and Locke's dog. Wow again.

I think this ep had some superb pieces of acting. The "I Never" scene is so well-done amidst what I would consider challenging circumstances--darkness and only a tiny liquor bottle as a prop, so Josh and Evie had to be very convincing with their voices, facial expressions and body language. And boy were they! I love the exchange following "I never...had a one-night stand." It was just so funny and natural and real.

Another great spot is Jack, when Sawyer shows up to return the gun. Jack looks surprised, then confused, then scared, then relieved, then completely irritated all in the course of a few seconds. And this guy didn't get an Emmy nomination?

I also love Sawyer's controlled rage as he orders the hot shrimp. His face looks like he could tear the truck apart, but his voice is calm and quiet. Frightening! I didn't understand the first time, and still don't the second time, why the shrimp guy wasn't the least bit suspicious of him.

One final favorite--Kate's expression when Sawyer lowers the gun on the boar. Her face is so tense as he's aiming, and convincingly relieved as she closes her eyes and drops her shoulders.

Two dumb questions:

1) Why does James take on the name Sawyer? I never have understood that. Why would he want the name of a man he hated?

2) I know the polar bears are man-made. What about the boar? The baby looked kind of real when Sawyer picked it up, then looked pretty rubbery when he was whirling it around. But the big boar looked real. BTW, in barnyards the male pigs don't take care of the babies, so I don't know why they kept calling this one a "he" and "Big Daddy" and thought they could use a baby to lure it. And then the (male) boar shows up anyway! Oh well, this is LOST.

Thanks for reading.

[lostmio]

Chinamom: the male pigs don't take care of the babies, so I don't know why they kept calling this one a "he" and "Big Daddy" and thought they could use a baby to lure it. And then the (male) boar shows up anyway! Oh well, this is LOST.

Now that you mention it, the whole baby/daddy boar thing was odd in that it didn't serve any plot purpose - except maybe to reinforce the father/son sacrificial dynamics. It's still raining anvils and I think you caught one...

[Chinamom]

biscuitmom, I think it's even dangerous to let male pigs around females with babies--they'll kill them...

Also wanted to add re: Bill Mapother not being in 2 fall shows simultaneously...I'm pretty sure Terry O'Quinn appeared on a couple of episodes of West Wing last year along with LOST (as a military adviser). He was also in JAG but I can't remember if that was last year or pre-LOST. Also...of course his name escapes me now but the actor who was Rex on Desperate Housewives was also in JAG and Enterprise at the same time (and died in all 3 shows!). So I don't think it's out of the question that Ethan *could* come back, from a logistical standpoint.

[TractorMan]

Terrry played Captain Thomas Boone on JAG back in 1995.

His great line, IMHO, was when he was on the stand in the courtroom and asked if he was flying on 'red alert'.

His response: "Ma'am, I'm on red alert when I'm flying over Oklahoma." - priceless...

Ethan was indeed breathing (but that could be an actor 'screw-up', and William Mapother (Ethan) is going to be in the new CBS Sci-fi series 'Threshold'...

[sir viver]

FB 3 - Sawyer confronts Duckett 1st time, Sawyers index fingernail on left hand is Black (injury?),

I'm glad you captured that truffula. That was something I missed during the original airing.

We all remember in Episode 8/Confidence Man when Sayid gives Sawyer the old bamboo manicure. The torture left bruises under a few of his fingernails which were clearly visible in later episodes and they even faded, becoming smaller until by the time Sawyer boarded the raft they were gone. In Episode 16/Confidence Man you can see the bruises during the majority of scenes on the Island. Like any other injury portrayed by an actor, the bruises were "painted" during make-up.

So then why would Sawyer have a visible bruise under the index finger of his left hand in the Frank Duckett shrimp truck flashback? There's only two general possibilites; Continuity Error or Intentional.

Maybe Josh Holloway had a real bruised fingernail when the scene was filmed . . .

Certainly possible, but knowing that the bruised fingernails are a part of the Sawyer character - and a reminder of an important event on the Island - why wouldn't they cover up a real bruise with a quick swish of nailpolish?

The TPTB were VERY focused on the continuity (fading, healing over time) of the bruises. They were a part of the actor's daily makeup sessions. In the shrimp truck flashback, they showed the bruised fingernail not once, but twice! I think we were meant to see that.

Maybe they forgot to take off the nailpolish before Josh Holloway shot that scene . . .

Highly unlikely. The shoot had a different location and was probably filmed on a different day than the Island scenes. And one glimpse at the dailies would've revealed that someone forgot to remove the nailpolish. Even before filming someone - maybe the actor himself - would've said "I still have that dang sissy nailpolish on."

I know that they were cutting to the gun with his finger on the trigger for dramatic effect, but that was the part of the scene that was above the surface IMO.

Their dice were made of bones.

[SuperDave]

Few comments;

I'd have to bet Ethan's coming back, why else would Hurly's script include something like "...dude, you know he's going to come back, and when he comes after us, I'll be the one caught...cause of my condition..." (or something like that). Why would they purposely have that in there unless you fully expect Ethan to scare the life out of Charlie and Hurley. They're forecasting a future scene! Why else would the writers use that dialog? Seriously, to keep us guessing? We'd be way off the track if it weren't for Hurley's lines about Ethan coming back. Normally, when someone's shot 4-6 times, I don't expect people to assume they might come back from the dead. [shrug]

Vincent is also tied directly with Locke, Walt, and future Island battles/scenarios. It's just too coincendental, again.

I love to rewatch these episodes.

Good call on the ironic chopping wood and gun exchanges!!!

[equinox]

We all remember in Episode 8/Confidence Man when Sayid gives Sawyer the old bamboo manicure. The torture left bruises under a few of his fingernails which were clearly visible in later episodes and they even faded, becoming smaller until by the time Sawyer boarded the raft they were gone.
(...)
The TPTB were VERY focused on the continuity (fading, healing over time) of the bruises. They were a part of the actor's daily makeup sessions.

Wow. I had never noticed that. That shows the level of attention to even the smallest continuity details that tPTB put into everything that shows on the screen. It makes less likely the opinion of those who believe that tPTB are not paying attention at continuity.

To tie this with other prior discussions, I wonder if we should try to put together a complete list of the details that can be observed (or that are noticeably absent) on the hands of all the characters in all the episodes. The camera often focuses on hands. That could show the presence of significant elements or, as importantly, the absence of significant elements. It might be interesting to have a comparative list of all types and positions of rings, watches, bruises, etc. that the characters wear. Of course, we might just realize in the end that it is all meaningless, but who knows.

[Leofoenget]

Locke tells story of sister Jeannie, the dog (Terry's fav scene) 6 months after funeral, a GOLDEN RETRIEVER (Vincent?) shows up and Lockes fostermom thought it was Jeannie, mother passed 5 years later

Locke clearly referred to the fostermoms dog as SHE. So not Vincent.

just a thought

[Hodgepodge]

Lost In His Eyes says:Also, Locke tells that story about his 'mother' and his 'sister' and the dog. Do you really think he doesn't believe that the dog was his 'sister'? And do you think that there could be any deeper connection between his story and the island? I just think it's weird that TPTB would have him tell a story like that if it didn't have some connection somewhere. I know it connects with Sawyer and his boar problem and his past...This is why I think this was one of Locke's parables. He received a "havid" got everything together, and sent Sawyer on his way.


truffula says:At the end when Sawyer gives Jack the gun, I thought it was funny how when Sawyer realizes that it was Jack's father he was talkin to in the bar, Jack was chopping wood, and Sawyer gave Jack a gun; and in Exodus 1, when Sawyer admits to Jack about meeting his father, Sawyer is chopping wood, and Jack gives Sawyer a gun.This is a great catch Truffula! Jays tao put together a post about Lost's cinematic symbolism. It disappeared in the ezHack disaster of '05. But it was very interesting how many scenes like this exist.


chinamom asks:...1) Why does James take on the name Sawyer? I never have understood that. Why would he want the name of a man he hated?Remember in Confidence Man, Kate rereads Sawyer's letter and realizes he was only 8 or 9-years old when it was written. Sawyer finally tells the truth. "It was his name. He was a confidence man. Romanced my momma to get to the money, wiped them out clean, left a mess behind. So I wrote that letter. I wrote it knowing one day I'd find him. But that ain't the sad part. When I was 19, I needed 6 grand to pay these guys off I was in trouble with. So I found a pretty lady with a dumb husband who had some money. And I got them to give it to me. How's that for a tragedy? I became the man I was hunting. Became Sawyer. Don't you feel sorry for me. (He grabs the letter from her). Get the hell out. Get out!"


chinamom also asks:2) I know the polar bears are man-made. What about the boar? The baby looked kind of real when Sawyer picked it up, then looked pretty rubbery when he was whirling it around. But the big boar looked real. BTW, in barnyards the male pigs don't take care of the babies, so I don't know why they kept calling this one a "he" and "Big Daddy" and thought they could use a baby to lure it. And then the (male) boar shows up anyway! Oh well, this is LOST.I think both the adult and piglet were real. Also, Sawyer at that point was so frustrated, he would've put a little dress on the piglet if he thought it would help.

[Hodgepodge]

SuperDave says:I'd have to bet Ethan's coming back, why else would Hurly's script include something like "...dude, you know he's going to come back, and when he comes after us, I'll be the one caught...cause of my condition..." (or something like that)... SuperDave, I'm going to quote the exact phrase, because without a doubt, it was the funniest thing from season one: :lol

Hurley: Yeah, 'til he rises from the dead. Dude, I know how this works. This is going to end with you and me running through the jungle screaming crying. He catches me first because I'm heavy and I get cramps.

Just reading it now, I'm getting tears in my eyes! :lol


austrasiel says:...To tie this with other prior discussions, I wonder if we should try to put together a complete list of the details that can be observed (or that are noticeably absent) on the hands of all the characters in all the episodes. The camera often focuses on hands. That could show the presence of significant elements or, as importantly, the absence of significant elements. It might be interesting to have a comparative list of all types and positions of rings, watches, bruises, etc. that the characters wear. Of course, we might just realize in the end that it is all meaningless, but who knows.We're keeping a list of missing appendages! Crashed cars! Toy airplanes and globes! I say why not! It sure couldn't hurt.

[sir viver]

austrasiel said:

To tie this with other prior discussions, I wonder if we should try to put together a complete list of the details that can be observed (or that are noticeably absent) on the hands of all the characters in all the episodes.

And then HodgePodge said:

We're keeping a list of missing appendages! Crashed cars! Toy airplanes and globes! I say why not! It sure couldn't hurt.

The other list I'd like to see is one of the so-called continuity errors like the bruised fingernails and Michael on a payphone in May before he got hit by the car. clayseason1 has pointed out that perhaps the weather was not your typical for a NYC May and I agree.

[truffula]

Hodge,
I totally agree, that was the funniest line from S1. And in close second would have to be:
Hurley - "That was like.......a Jedi moment" or "Dude, pee on my foot!"

Also, on Bill Mapother (Ethan)'s possible return - Yes, an actor (espescially one with a somewhat reduced role) can easily be in more than one TV show in the same season; but I still think that IF "Ethan" returns, it won't be in S2. I think they have alot of other things planned to mess with our minds first, ya know, get our thoughts off of Ethan. Then when we least expect it.....BAM.....Ethan/Ethan clone/Ethan zombie (or whatever)!!!

Next week begins the DoubleShots of LOST. But I will still start individual threads for each Ep. cause the discussions will be a little different in the second one (Numbers). This was when I found Lost-Tv, I knew I couldn't figure it out on my own, I need your input. Perhaps I'll open up the thread for "In Translation" over the weekend to start things early.
Til then...

Peace,
Truff

[SpidermanHouston]

Next week begins the DoubleShots of LOST
Actually they changed the schedule. you have to wait till August 31 for the doubleshots. they are still showing brat camp next week because it was preempted last week on account of the peter jennings special. they are only showing in translation next week.

[truffula]

Thanks for the heads up Spidey :D

[FWC2210]

Re: Ethan returning.I was one who thought the body was breathing when Hurley and Charlie were burying him; I'll have to go back and watch again to check out the waves theory.

Also, on one of JJ Abrahms other shows 'Alias' there was a girl who had parts on both Alias and King of Queens. She did both for a while, then her part got expanded on Alias, so they wrote her out of the King of Queens.But the Alias part didn't last that long and now she's back on KoQ's. Not a bad gig.

[I like to listen]

When Sawyer doesn't kill the boar, I felt it parreled the final hunting scene with Robert De Niro in Michael Cimino's
The Deer Hunter(Oscar- Best picture '78). Deniro does not kill the great buck after tracking it, even with the opportunity of a dead-bang, he pauses much like Sawyer and lets the old buck live. Outlaws and The Deer Hunter are similar in the storyline of killing and how it corrupts the soul. He doesn't kill at his ephiny, becuase IMO he is sick of killing anything and that he has realized a being that is a greater and more majestic animal then himself, that he does not have the right to exterminate(DeNiro/Sawyer). You are left with the feeling, his(DeNiro) rifles will rust in a closet the rest of his life. The simular dynamics of the two scenes lead me to believe it is an homage to the 5 time Oscar winner.

Maybe that is why Quick Draw, becomes very unconcerned with weaponry, after this episode. Even to the point that Michael has to give him his piece on the raft, which he is very slow to pull when needed anyway. That along with the karmic aspects that were presented in the episode leads to possible foreshadowing that Sawyer will not be much use in a firefight any longer(raft.. season2??). He has been built up and now torn down as a killer. Not just of boars that pee on his belongings.

[Brian]

Locke clearly referred to the fostermoms dog as SHE. So not Vincent.

Vincent is played by a female dog, Madeline (sp?). I remember because I caught hell over this in the spoiler forum a few weeks ago (and will again if I'm wrong :) ). As is the case in many TV dog characters, regardless of name, they are females. Yeah, I know, not all, but many.

[LoStMyMiNd]

Vincent is a yellow lab not a gold retriever. I thought Locke's story should have been a fable because the timeline was off. Remember, he didn't know the lady in the toy store was his mother? His story would kind of make you think that he was raised by his mother.

I really do think Locke has something against Sawyer, 1st trying to frame him and then following him. I do not believe that he was looking for wreckage when he happened upon Kate and Sawyer. He was definately following them, for what purpose I don't know. Maybe to keep them away from the hatch?

I agree with biscuitmom, the background was moving, not Ethan breathing. I watched carefully, his hand did not move and his chest did not rise. It was the background moving. But I do think it would be very cool if we were surprised with an Ethan flashback. Maybe a flashback from one of the Lostaways that includes Ethan.

Does anyone NOT think that Sawyer killed Duckett after this episode when Sawyer said he never killed a man and Kate drank and so did Sawyer.

[truffula]

ODammet said:
Vincent is a yellow lab not a gold retriever

Good call. I don't know dog breeds at all. Perhaps Locke's story was just another clue as to the "Special" properties/characteristics of dogs, so we might wanna pay more attention to what's happening with Vincent!

Peace,
Truff

[clayseason1]

I really do think Locke has something against Sawyer, 1st trying to frame him and then following him. I do not believe that he was looking for wreckage when he happened upon Kate and Sawyer. He was definately following them, for what purpose I don't know.

I suspect that Sawyer is somehow a threat to Locke. When Locke lied to Sayid about knocking him out and "framed" Sawyer for the deed, Locke handed Sayid a knife to use when confronting Sawyer. I believe Locke wanted Sayid to kill Sawyer with that knife.

Does anyone NOT think that Sawyer killed Duckett after this episode when Sawyer said he never killed a man and Kate drank and so did Sawyer.
We are shown Sawyer killing Duckett and I think Sawyer believes he killed Duckett.

But....if the survivors were engineered to be on the island (I'm not saying that is what's going on but if), then I think the possibility exists that the "Duckett killing" was a set-up.

There apparently is no love lost between Hibbs and Sawyer.
Sawyer hasn't seen Hibbs since their business relationship has gone south.

Hibbs shows up on Sawyer's door step with a police dossier on Duckett and tells Sawyer that Duckett is the real Sawyer. (Now I understand that Hibbs is using Sawyer to kill Duckett as Duckett didn't pay Hibbs back - but that could be a lie.)

Then Hibbs sends Sawyer to a crook who sells guns. Sawyer buys the gun and bullets from the crook Hibbs sent him to. (Could the gun have contained blanks?)

Sawyer kills Duckett (or was that a blood capsule - Duckett broke when "shot").

[lostmio]

ILTL: That along with the karmic aspects that were presented in the episode leads to possible foreshadowing that Sawyer will not be much use in a firefight any longer(raft.. season2??). He has been built up and now torn down as a killer.

Excellent observations, and I think you're right that that Sawyer's boar is a deliberate allusion to Deer Hunter. That it's derivative makes the scene more powerful.
Hibbs, who knows Sawyer far better than anyone else we've seen, said "You're not the killing type".

[clayseason1]

I was amazed at I Like to Listen's observation about the Deerhunter scene and Sawyer with the boar. This whole Sawyer/boar storyline did not make complete sense to me until ILTL made that observation, then everything clicked into place. (cs gives ILTL a standing ovation)

Hibbs, who knows Sawyer far better than anyone else we've seen, said "You're not the killing type".
I forgot that. Wow! That helps substantiate a "Duckett-killing" set up.:eek I need to think about that some more.

[I like to listen]

biscutmom, clayseason

Thank you for your postive comments, although I still feel that I am in your debt for often not commenting on ideas that you both present. It leads to much thought wich helps me develop my own. (discalimer.. respectfully,there are others too)

I try to approach the media arts using one of the first and harshest rules I learned in film school. I had a Professor named Gene Youngblood who stated "Everything has been done, nothing is any longer original, work at being a "good thief". -paraphrased

That was very hard to grasp being younger and dumber and the ego to match. The statement appeared to kill some of the creative process. Now decades later it has been proven to me time and time again. Such is life...

Now I may not be a good thief, but I try to be a good cop.

Just wanted to explain of my M.O. as it may lend to your arsenal if not already present.

[clayseason1]

"Everything has been done, nothing is any longer original, work at being a "good thief".

:D One of my little theories - TPTB maintain that there is no one over-arching premise behind LOST. I believe that.

I think they got together and were remembering all of their favorite sci fi and movie moments and threw them all together and made LOST. There are so many different elements that remind me of certain Twilight Zone, Stephen King, Star Wars ..etc situations (and now I can include the "DeerHunter").

So the best we can hope for as far as theories are concerned is to figure out the different elements and guess at how they tied them together. Does that make sense?

[I like to listen]

clayseason1 says

So the best we can hope for as far as theories are concerned is to figure out the different elements and guess at how they tied them together. Does that make sense?

It makes complete sense. Use reciepes from different,successful menus, but present them as your own buffet. Who then can complain, the best of everything is present, yet does not offend the source since the presentation has changed.

[Hodgepodge]

Got a question! Who if anyone does the boar represent? If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the boar appear in lil Sawyer's bedroom? So, does the boar represent Frank Duckett or Sawyer's father?

[I like to listen]

Hodgepodge asks;

So, does the boar represent Frank Duckett or Sawyer's father?

Maybe the boar represents the side of Sawyer, that motivated/haunted him throughout his life to seek revenge. He releases his angst on the island not by satisfying the desire, but by letting it go. Twist on the Fox and the Grapes fable.

[Hodgepodge]

I like to listen says:Maybe the boar represents the side of Sawyer, that motivated/haunted him throughout his life to seek revenge. He releases his angst on the island not by satisfying the desire, but by letting it go. Twist on the Fox and the Grapes fable.I see your point I like to listen.

[I like to listen]

^^^^

Then again, Sawyer tells Walt this on the raft this when he is reading the messages in the bottle.

Walt- How would you like if I read yours?

Sawyer- You can't read mine because I didn't write one.

Walt- Why not?

Sawyer- Because the only one I ever wrote me is to the man I'm going to kill.

Walt- Why you going to kill him?

Sawyer- Because I need to.

Walt- Why?

Sawyer- Because!

It could be old habits die hard, or that as he moved away from the island they more easily resurfaced. Maybe the leopard's spots never really changed.

Walt just seems to have a strange, yet believable interactions with Sawyer. He gets the info alot easier then the rest of the 815s. Reminds me alot of the Wally and the Beaver. Even with the differences in ages, the conversations seem to balance between Walt and Sawyer. Sawyer never really says "Go away kid your bothering me" wich would seem to be more fitting to him. He always indulges Walt.

We"ll never see it, but a Locke, Walt and Sawyer game of "I never" would be interesting to me.

[Hodgepodge]

I like to listen, also remember Jack had given him a gun for protection on the raft. Maybe the idea was put back is his mind once he felt cold steel in his hand.

[acovell]

This was my first viewing of this episode and I have some observations and some questions:

1. When Sawyer first went into the hotel room with the woman, did she say "What are you so afraid of?" or "What are you still afraid of?" In either case, to what was she referring?

2. What happened with the Tampa job? Is that the one Sawyer walked away from because of the little boy? If so, why is Hibbs paying him back with the info on Duckett? Wouldn't it be Sawyer who should be paying someone back?

3. I was waiting to see Ethan's hand move or notice him breathing. Didn't see it. I think if we were meant to see it, the camera would have stayed on his body a bit longer. As it is, I think they were just going for the eerie image of Hurley and Charlie standing behind a body bag with a hand sticking out of it.

4. Locke was definitely following Sawyer and/or Kate. Scavenging was just an excuse. Why was he following them?

5. I think Locke's story about the dog and his foster mother was true. It just happened to fit the situation. I don't believe he thought the dog was his sister. He was commenting, I think, on the fact that Sawyer couldn't let his childhood trauma go, just like his foster mother couldn't let his sister go. For his foster mother, the dog was symbolic of her daughter; for Sawyer, the boar was symbolic of his father.

6. Christian's Australian accent on the "Americans can't hold their liquor" line was pretty good.

7. Christian called Sawyer "cowboy". Why? Just the southern accent?

8. Christian underscored he was a chief of surgery in much the same way Jack underscored Christian is a chief of surgery in the hotel room.

9. Christian said he went to Australia because "it's the closest thing to hell without getting burned". I've never heard Australia described that way before. Most everyone I know who's been there says it's beautiful. Why does Christian think it's hell?

10. I find it surprising that Sawyer is still adamant about killing the real Sawyer after having killed the wrong man -- unless he now thinks Hibbs is the real Sawyer.

11. The word "fate" was said a gazillion times.

[Hodgepodge]

acovell asks:...2. What happened with the Tampa job? Is that the one Sawyer walked away from because of the little boy? If so, why is Hibbs paying him back with the info on Duckett? Wouldn't it be Sawyer who should be paying someone back?...Acovell, this is of course speculation, but I got the impression Hibbs may've stiffed Sawyer regarding the Tampa job. I think they're both grifters and somehow got intertwined in Tampa. But I don't think it has anything to do with the Confidence Man episode.

...4. Locke was definitely following Sawyer and/or Kate. Scavenging was just an excuse. Why was he following them?... I've always thought this was one of Locke's little journey's he likes to send our survivors on. Doesn't it sound like it?

...8. Christian underscored he was a chief of surgery in much the same way Jack underscored Christian is a chief of surgery in the hotel room.That's a very prestigious title. Not only is he a surgeon, but he's chief of surgery.

9. Christian said he went to Australia because "it's the closest thing to hell without getting burned". I've never heard Australia described that way before. Most everyone I know who's been there says it's beautiful. Why does Christian think it's hell?...I don't remember this particular quote, but I agree with your thoughts. Why would he consider Australia close to hell? I'll have to think about that one. Oh! I'm wondering if it has anything to do with Australia being founded as a penal colony?

[truffula]

acovell -
4. Locke was definitely following Sawyer and/or Kate. Scavenging was just an excuse. Why was he following them?

I think to make sure they didn't stumble upon the hatch.
They must've been goin somewhat in the direction of it for Locke to have the need to follow them.
Or (just a random thought that popped into my head, and I mean RANDOM) maybe Locke is "Special" too, and he's manipulating this situation. Why? How? I don't know. Just a very obscure, random thought as I type.

[lostmio]

TRUF - Sawyer confronts Duckett 1st time, Sawyers index fingernail on left hand is Black (injury?),
I just discovered that in "Whatever the Case May Be", Kate's index fingernail on her right hand is black. You see it when she's holding the toy plane that belonged to the man she "killed":

www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=147&pos=824 (http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=147&pos=824)

[truffula]

Most Excellent Catch Biscuitmom!!
That now gives me reason to believe that there is more to this. I have just made a note for my Second Runthru of S1 (the DVDs) to get closeup caps of our Lostaways hands in crucial times on the island and in FBs. As when I noted Sawyers, he was going to shoot Duckett, and you've noticed it when Kate pulls out the miniplane.

Again, great EYE!!
Keep em coming, this is the reason why Lost-Tv RULES!!

[lostmio]

I think this was the "I never" episode, and my initial reaction was it's akin to the Sawyer-Jack-woodcutting-gun thing you discovered, sort of a psychological connection or balance thing between Kate & Sawyer.

I found it by accident while looking for screencaps of the miniplane.
You wouldn't believe how many appearances there have been of that darn toy - I swear it's had more screen time than the hatch. Well, more close-ups anyway.

Now see, if I had *your* good sense and self-discipline I would have logged the appearances as I went and I could tell you exactly how many episodes, if not how many close-ups!

[looloolou]

The first thing I thought of when I read this about the fingernails is that Charlie's fingernails, at least in the beginning were black at the cuticles. Every time they show him with his little bag of heroin. I assumed it was a symptom of heroin use/playing the guitar too hard, as I think (at least I havent noticed it) it has since disappeared. Also in the scene from Charlie's flashbacks, where he uses heroin for the first time, in the mirror when he sits down you can see at least one of his fingernails is painted blue. I have no idea what this all means, but when I read about fingernails this is what came to mind.

[looloolou]

I had to go back and rewatch this on the dvd to see the fingernail...lol. I don't think its a continuity issue as it looks to me (although harder to see due to the dark lighting) that he still has the bruised fingernail in the bar scene with Jack's dad.

There also seems to be a very well framed shot of the room number across the hall when Sawyer is escorting the woman out to talk to Hibbs. I can't make it out on my tv but maybe someone else can. Just wondering if its some of the "numbers".

I also noticed this time on the dvd that the scene with the wood and the gun seems to be very badly dubbed. Neither Sawyer or Jack's lips move with their words. This makes me think that they went back and changed the words for some significant clue. Its possible there were too many background noises when they shot the scene and it had to be redone in a sound studio, but the words just dont seem to match the movement of their lips. Starting from when Sawyer says he is all out of pies to throw. Its just weird.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

acovell asks:
...2. What happened with the Tampa job? Is that the one Sawyer walked away from because of the little boy? If so, why is Hibbs paying him back with the info on Duckett? Wouldn't it be Sawyer who should be paying someone back?...

Hodgepodge Answered:
Acovell, this is of course speculation, but I got the impression Hibbs may've stiffed Sawyer regarding the Tampa job. I think they're both grifters and somehow got intertwined in Tampa. But I don't think it has anything to do with the Confidence Man episode.

I don't think it was, either. The blonde from the 'Confidence Man' FlashBack said "I thought you came to Baton Rouge to close a deal." And the exterior architecture when he walked out on the family was definitely more Louisiana than Florida.

This was a fantastic episode. Horrifying flashback to open with.

I think the boar in the bedroom in Sawyer's dream had something to do with Kate's question during the I Never game. I never blamed a boar for all my problems.

And I noticed the partially missing finger on the drink glass, too. Always good to see Robert Patrick drop in on a show! he was terrific on The Sopranos as David Scatino, a money-owing gambler.

[looloolou]

This is a silly piece of trivia unrelated I am sure to any theory, mystery, or speculation...but I had to share. I think Sawyer's tee shirt that the boar pees on (the one he says is his favorite) is his Humpy's tee. Humpy's is a bar in downtown Anchorage, Alaska that is really fun. It took me a while, but I finally noticed that the faded tee is a Humpy's tee. My sister was a bartender there a while back, so I spent some time on a barstool there. (Humpy is a nickname for a kind of salmon...they get a humpback at the end of their lives when they are spawning). I noticed the tee when I ::whispering:: downloaded the wallpaper of Sawyer from the ABC website and he was wearing it ::b lushing as this is not something a smom of four in her 30's should probably be sharing with others::

Anyhoooo...I got excited when I noticed that and wanted to share that useless bit of information. :)

Loo

[xXxJessiexXx]

I read in the tv magazine today that in this episode Jack and Sawyer have connections or something. And i watched this episode on E4 on wednesday and i didnt really understand the whole sawyer bit. My mind must have swutched off becasue i dont remember Jack's dad introducing him self or the red socks bit that Jack near the end.

But when i did suddenly pay attention was when jack said his father was dead, and sawyer looked shocked. Was Jacks dad the man that sawyer killed? Or was it just someone he knew? I think i will have to watch it again on sunday on the cath ups and play a little more attention. I am just so confused? :confused:

[Hodgepodge]

I read in the tv magazine today that in this episode Jack and Sawyer have connections or something. And i watched this episode on E4 on wednesday and i didnt really understand the whole sawyer bit. My mind must have swutched off becasue i dont remember Jack's dad introducing him self or the red socks bit that Jack near the end.

But when i did suddenly pay attention was when jack said his father was dead, and sawyer looked shocked. Was Jacks dad the man that sawyer killed? Or was it just someone he knew? I think i will have to watch it again on sunday on the cath ups and play a little more attention. I am just so confused? :confused:Christian introduced himself as a fellow American. That's how their little conversation began. He also hit Sawyer up for money. Remember, Jack found his father's wallet in his room.

What made Sawyer realize he'd been talking to Jack's father, was the Red Sox comment. That's when he got that OMG look on his face. He even asked Jack to repeat that comment.

The guy Sawyer shot was named Frank Duckett. He was suppose to be the real Sawyer, but ended up being someone who owed Hibbs money.

Hope that explains things!

[xXxJessiexXx]

Yeah thanks. I taped that one so i watched it back last night and i listened to the bit in the bar and understood. Must have been day dreaming first time round. lol.

Still dont really get why Sawyer wanted to kill that man. (but dont worry im very slow!lol) So he killed the wrong guy then? :confused:

[Hodgepodge]

...Still dont really get why Sawyer wanted to kill that man. (but dont worry im very slow!lol) So he killed the wrong guy then? :confused:Don't forget, Sawyer's been carrying around that letter he wrote the real Sawyer for something like 20-years. This guy seduced his mother. Stole his families money. Was the catalyst to his mother's murder and his father's suicide. That's probably enough to get you killed in some areas of the World. :)

[rvturnage]

Any idea why a fence would be there in the middle of the jungle? There's one in Outlaws, apparently, looks like it's just as the boar knocks Sawyer down...and it seems to go along with the whispers that Sawyer heard, since where there's a fence...

"He's coming up on the gate" (http://www.lostlinks.net/whispers.htm for those who haven't read them)

I saw this pic posted on the fuselage, and did a search here for it, but didn't see anything mentioned.

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=30287&fullsize=1

rvt

[Hodgepodge]

Any idea why a fence would be there in the middle of the jungle? There's one in Outlaws, apparently, looks like it's just as the boar knocks Sawyer down...and it seems to go along with the whispers that Sawyer heard, since where there's a fence...

"He's coming up on the gate" (http://www.lostlinks.net/whispers.htm for those who haven't read them)

I saw this pic posted on the fuselage, and did a search here for it, but didn't see anything mentioned.

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimagepopup&pid=30287&fullsize=1

rvtRVTurange, I'll have to admit, I didn't notice the fence. And I've always been one of the proponents of the whisper dialog, but I've never been able to prove their authenticity. I'm tally dumbfounded!

Great catch!

[rvturnage]

RVTurange, I'll have to admit, I didn't notice the fence. And I've always been one of the proponents of the whisper dialog, but I've never been able to prove their authenticity. I'm tally dumbfounded!

Great catch!

thanks, but I can't take credit for it. I saw it posted at thefuselage.com in a thread about the whispers in Outlaws. Thought I'd bring it over here for some discussion...

rvt

EDITED: Looks like it's a mistake. Someone posted at the fusealage that it can be seen in behind the scene footage on the DVD titled "The Trouble with Boars", and apparently is a big pen used to keep the boar from running off into the jungle, and the scene was filmed within the pen.

Sorry 'bout that...:o

[Jason and the ARGonauts]

That's kind of cool.

[The Kikukawa Kid]

When Sawyer wouldn't shoot the boar, it reminded me of the end of The Deer Hunter.

It's kind of selfish, too, that he didn't shoot the boar because it seems that Locke hadn't brought any bacon home in a while. Sawyer's boar would have made Hurley happy!

[johnnyhotspur]

The whisper says IT'LL COME BACK AROUND.

How could anyone but Sawyer have known that line?

Sawyer must have told CHRISTIAN SHEPHERD the guy said that after he killed him, and went back to the bar.

Which means Jack's dad might be in on the whole thing!

[OMG its LFG]

The whisper says IT'LL COME BACK AROUND.

Sawyer must have told CHRISTIAN SHEPHERD the guy said that after he killed him, and went back to the bar.


Why would he have told Christian Shepherd that part, and why would they have left that part out?

[Hodgepodge]

The whisper says IT'LL COME BACK AROUND.

How could anyone but Sawyer have known that line?

Sawyer must have told CHRISTIAN SHEPHERD the guy said that after he killed him, and went back to the bar.

Which means Jack's dad might be in on the whole thing!I'm thinking "Smokey" paid a visit we're not privy to. Think about it! We've seen the results of "havids" by Locke. We've even seen Locke "havids" that he's not in. Remember the ? episode?

Who shows up at Sawyer and Kate's campsite that next morning? That's right, Locke! "I was just in the neighborhood." Yeah right!

[johnnyhotspur]

Why would he have told Christian Shepherd that part, and why would they have left that part out?

Because if they show it, it gives the game away that Christian Shephard has a sinister role to play.

[OMG its LFG]

thats true, but im not sure if i buy it

[Hodgepodge]

Johnnyhotspur, we are talking about Lost here. I wouldn't put anything past TPTB.

Got a question for ya! Do you think Christian Shepard is alive on the island?

[OMG its LFG]

I don't...That would be a bit much, if the island could bring people back from the dead... I mean curing locke's gimpy legs, and Rose's cancer is one thing, but Jack's dad being the living dead... I dont think so.

[11sawyer11]

i actually think that jacks dad is still alive and he is ''him''

he might have staged his death

[bradratm]

The whisper says IT'LL COME BACK AROUND.

How could anyone but Sawyer have known that line?

Sawyer must have told CHRISTIAN SHEPHERD the guy said that after he killed him, and went back to the bar.

Which means Jack's dad might be in on the whole thing!

Why would Sawyer leave Christian in the bar to go kill Duckett, then go back to the same bar just to tell the guy he was talking to what Duckett said to him after he shot him?

It seems to be a bit of a stretch to me.

[OMG its LFG]

Thats what I said. Why would he tell anyone what he said, let alone a guy in a bar.

[OMG its LFG]

I found an article in the spoilers section that clears up our arguement about Christian Shepard. I can give you the link, if anyone wants it.

[bradratm]

Yeah, post a link please.

[equinox]

The Christian Shephard argument seems off topic in the Outlaws episode thread, but anyway I think LfG was referring to this part of an interview with Carlton Cuse. Do not open the spoiler box if you do not want to read something that was said outside the show about the character Christian Shephard:
Cuse: "(...) in the same way that you've got Jack's father's story. That character was dead from the word go, but that doesn't mean we haven't learned and seen his story over the course of the series."
It seems pretty clear to me, but it may not stop the speculation by people who would still want to believe the opposite. Sometimes, some people can ignore the evidence, trying to keep their pet theories afloat.

[OMG its LFG]

yeah sorry, I was kind of out of it.

[Hurley4Prez]

It's cool. You are the keeper of the Dharma Vodka, and you share.

(Happy Birthday! :))

[sawyerhasbestlines]

The Christian Shephard argument seems off topic in the Outlaws episode thread, but anyway I think LfG was referring to this part of an interview with Carlton Cuse. Do not open the spoiler box if you do not want to read something that was said outside the show about the character Christian Shephard:
Cuse: "(...) in the same way that you've got Jack's father's story. That character was dead from the word go, but that doesn't mean we haven't learned and seen his story over the course of the series."
It seems pretty clear to me, but it may not stop the speculation by people who would still want to believe the opposite. Sometimes, some people can ignore the evidence, trying to keep their pet theories afloat.

I wouldn't go by interviews. They have known to be wrong and intentionally misguiding. Think about the episode, Eko's flashback "the miracle" where the dead girl miraculasly comes back to life.

It's classic literary allusion: foreshadowing. What would be the point of that story line. Do you think it's a meaningless bomb that was dropped. That was one of the most interesting elements and minor plot points of last season. A character coming back to life "because he was never dead" is a classic film and literary motif.


- "Don't bury me. Even if you think I'm dead, I might only be asleep" - Guy Carrell in 'The Premature Burial' Ray Milland, 1962

- and: "Please don't bury me" the Lady Madeline in 'The Fall of the House of Usher' - Marguerite Abel-Gance, 1928

- and the mystery novel by Carol O'Connell 'Judas Child' 1998 : "Don't bury me, promise" - Gwenn " referring to her friend Sadie who buries herself alive, faking rigor mortis.

- "Burried Alive" 1990 movie re-make base on Edgar Allen Poe's "The Premature Burial"
In "Tales of 2 Cities" notable line: "recalled to life" - coded message for Jerry's mission, “to dig some one out of a grave” who has been “buried alive for eighteen years.” In this case, it's a resurrection motif for a man thought to be dead but has been imprisoned for 18 years.

Resurrections don't have to be literal but can function figuretively in a plot line.

It's plausible, based on the Eko story flashback, that Libby and Christian could be alive.

[Solstice]

So when Hibbs gives Sawyer - Ducket's "jacket" (or police file), who is this "Tony" (did I hear that right) that pulled the "jacket"? Is he a policeman? Is he a policeman that could be connected to Sawyer or Boone or Kate later on?

Sometimes I've got the feeling that a lot of things taking place on this island aren't real .. remember Boone seing Shannon die & then it did happen the other way round .. no both are dead ( are they ?? ) .. and Jack did see his dad.. ( just hallucinating ?? ) .. Sawyer's nightmares ( just nightmares ? ) .. so any policeman might be real / unreal .. who knows ??

( For sure not me .. cos over here in Germany the second season is just running on TV .. *lol* )

[Hodgepodge]

Solstice, let me welcome you to Lost-TV. I'm sure you're going to enjoy the community. Before wondering off to far, make sure and read the New Member Welcome (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25440) post, and introduce yourself in the same thread. Now to your post.


Sometimes I've got the feeling that a lot of things taking place on this island aren't real .. remember Boone seing Shannon die & then it did happen the other way round .. no both are dead ( are they ?? ) .. and Jack did see his dad.. ( just hallucinating ?? ) .. Sawyer's nightmares ( just nightmares ? ) .. so any policeman might be real / unreal .. who knows ??

( For sure not me .. cos over here in Germany the second season is just running on TV .. *lol* )Solstice, we've got a name for these manifestations. We call them "havids". Hallucinations/visions/dreams.

And again, :welcome:

[equinox]

Solstice !

That's a good screen name. :)

Welcome !

[j-losti]

cos over here in Germany the second season is just running on TV .. *lol*

*Shudders* and I thought the UK was slow on the running, anyway hope you enjoy S2 :goodvibes