EPISODE 23 ----- EXODUS (PART ONE)

[truffula]

So I guess it all boils down to this. The end of Truffula's Post Explosion. I'm gonna save Exodus 2 for next week, even though I know all we'll be wanting to talk about at that point is SEASON TWO!!!

The original thread can be found here:
p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm40.showMes sage?topicID=37.topic (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm40.showMes sage?topicID=37.topic)

Here are my notes for this episode from both runthroughs of Season One:

LOST Season One - Episode 23 - Exodus Pt.1
Multi backstory

previously on LOST - Sayid thought wire on beach was related to transmission they heard - is he right? "Are there other people on this island", asks Sayid; "NO", says danielle, "but I hear them."

WALT/MIKE FB - Walt turns on Power Rangers at 5:23am
Walt is a brat. They're on 3rd floor of hotel. "you're not my father" - sets up what happens at the end

Walt sees Danielle approaching beachcamp.
Danielle - the "OTHERS" are coming.
At beachcamp I see - Claire, Charlie, Walt, Mike, Sawyer, Sayid, Jack, Hurley, Locke
Danielle - ship went aground 16 years ago (Black Rock? - no, too old), there were 6 of them (including Danielle), 7 months pregnant when shipwrecked, delivered baby herself, baby 1 week old when Black Smoke appeared 5 km inland, that night they came and took HER (confirmation that Alex is a female), Alex; now they're coming again for ALL OF YOU (no, just Walt)
1st try to get raft out - fails. The Black Smoke appears.
Danielle REFUSES to answer more questions, says she's told them all she knows (something NOT RIGHT HERE).
"I've never seen anything like it" - Danielle upon seeing the hatch. - LIE.
Hurley asks how will they all fit in - if they only knew.
Sayid is smart - "we're acting with no intelligence, this hatch could belong to these others" - Danielle contradicts Sayid's idea that black smoke might not mean the Others before he can even get it out of his mouth.
Locke likes Danielle - at least her resourcfulness.

JACK FB - intro Ana Lucia
both drinking at airplane bar, she heard him yelling at ticket lady.
she asks about married - Jack says "not anymore"
drinking scene happens at 11:50am airport time (for TIMELINE)
Jack 23B, Ana 42F - their seat numbers on 815.
This could be a BIG CLUE - Jack #23, the second to last number of the sequence, Ana #42, the Last number of the sequence - they are both REALLY important to what is going to happen.
THEORY - Ana will help out Jack when Kate betrays him.
"the worst parts over" - if she only knew (i hear "back of the plane" in passing conversation in the background)

Jack instructs beachcamp to move to caves to be safe from "others" - so Jack finally gets his way and they all move to the caves and off the beach.
Arzt says if you dont want to blow up, then i'm going with you (to blow up)

SAWYER FB - at the Australian Police station (again?)
3 nights before this incident is when we see Sawyer in Boone's FB trying to help Shannon
Sawyer headbutted the Honorable Warren Truss, Minister of agriculture, fishery, and forestry, that is why he is deported - get tix for 815
Sawyers name is JAMES FORD.
Flight leaves that afternooon (for TIMELINE), unless these AREN'T for flight 815, and there's more to Sawyer's story (probably not though)

Jack gives Sawyer a gun (reversal of scene where Sawyer gave Jack back the gun from hunting Ethan), Sayid gets the rest of them.
Sawyer tells Jack about encounter with Christian.

KATE/MARSHALL FB - Preboarding Procedure
Marshall will be armed at ankle, 5 guns total, Tom killed a couple of years ago (2 years? - for TIMELINE), Tom had 2 year old kid, Marshall chased Kate for 3 years, Kate calls Marshall (a personal relationship??) begging him to believe her story - he tells her about plane in box in NM
She has No Attachments says Marshall of Kate.

Kate, Jack, Locke, Hurley, Arzt, and Danielle go after dynamite at Black Rock - NOT present for raft launching
Charlie has message in a bottle idea, Hurley put one in, it was a message to leave all his money to his mother (i forget the source on this one, but its NOT the numbers)
Music heard while dyanmite group walks should be on LOST soundtrack.
Locke sees scratches on Danielle's arm - he knows something is up. Yet he keeps his mouth shut. I wonder why?
Name given - Dr. Leslie Arzt (spelling and all - too bad they blow him up)
Danielle says dark territory in french and somehow Jack translates it for the rest of them - how does he do this? (Sayid's maps?)
The Dark Territory (I believe) marks "where it all began" as Danielle says it; where Montand LOST his arm (ANOTHER missing limb)
Mike and Jin make really funny Han/Chewie reference here "no, this one goes here, that one goes there" (added to in exodus 2)
No rain on beach, Rain in Dark Territories.
Arzt heard running BEFORE any monster-like noises heard, then a howl and slam at the same time, NOTE - once howl is heard (announcing arrival of monster) only mechanical noises heard beyond that.
(supports THEORY that "howl" is actually an underground door opening)
Locke (as rain stops) "its headed the other way", what does he know?
(now Locke has "seen" this "monster" in an earlier episode, he may know more about it, and again, he's keeping his mouth shut)
Danielle calls monster "security system" - its purpose is that of any security system, to PROTECT SOMETHING (to protect something = The ANSWER) She says to protect the Island, I think its bigger than that.
"dude, i thought you were dead" Hurley to Arzt (things to come)
Walt gives Shannon his dog Vincent.
"Vincent took care of me when my mom died" says Walt (A Clue?)

SHANNON/BOONE FB - setting up Sayid
flight 338 to Fiji has been delayed - WHY? (heard over speakers) BIG CLUE here I think.
Shannon waiting between gates 23 and 35
Shannon yelled at Gate Agent, they don't get first class now says Boone.
Shannon doesn't want to sit next to a crying baby for 15 hours.
"you have no idea what i'm capable of" says Shannon as she lies abut Sayid's bag (we've heard this line before, Jack to Kate about poisoning, as well as Sun to Mike when she reveals she speaks English)

Raft has radar, radio, to see ships approx. 25 miles.
The Black Rock is a Ship. (a sea vessel/boat)

JIN/SUN FB - Coffee spill, Jin meets Mr. Paik's associate.
Jin is still to deliver a watch to Mr. Paik's friend in LA (I bet this guy is a tail section survivor)

Sun gives Jin book of English, Sun and Jin make up
Jin - i'm in this place because i'm being punished; stay with Jack, he'll keep you safe (side chosen)
Music heard as raft sails should be on LOST soundtrack.
Walt commands Vincent around as he chases the raft.
YAY!!!! THE RAFT IS OFF!!!!!!
YAY!!!!!!!!!!
Black Smoke
LOST.


Then I went and saw the Midnight Premiere of "STAR WARS: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith. And I saw a stormtrooper.
He didn't need to see my identification. But he did look REALLY COOL!!
One of the wildest nights of entertainment EVER!!

Discuss On.
Peace,
Truff

[Lost In His Eyes]

NOTE - once howl is heard (announcing arrival of monster) only mechanical noises heard beyond that.
(supports THEORY that "howl" is actually an underground door opening)
Locke (as rain stops) "its headed the other way", what does he know?

Ooohhh, I like this! The howl and the underground door opening! Does that support the 2 stobors theory?
Was Locke talking about the rain heading the other way or the monster? I don't remember that part.


Not a lot to say for this one, tons of references to the numbers though.

ETA:

KATE/MARSHALL FB - Preboarding Procedure
Marshall will be armed at ankle, 5 guns total, Tom killed a couple of years ago (2 years? - for TIMELINE), Tom had 2 year old kid, Marshall chased Kate for 3 years, Kate calls Marshall (a personal relationship??) begging him to believe her story - he tells her about plane in box in NM
She has No Attachments says Marshall of Kate.

Okay, at the end of this scene, Kate shoves The Marshall into the window because he is asking her what Tom's name was, tormenting her. He then elbows her in the face. Now, since I have never been elbowed in the face, I don't know if it would bruise or not. But it looked like he got her right above her right eye, maybe her right cheek area. So, why wasn't there a bruise on her face?

Also, when the group out to get the dynamite runs into the monster, the group splits. Locke and Hurley stay still together and Kate, Jack and Danielle run. Arntz runs too, but I don't know where. But, when the monster is going away and Locke says it's heading the other way (I answered my own question!) it cleary sounds like the monster is stomping away. Ya know, the dinosaur type loud stomp stomp... It makes me wonder if there really is 2 of them. Because I don't see 'smokie' stomping around the island. Any thoughts?


ETA: Again!

At the end when the raft sets sail, Vincent jumps in the water and starts to swim after it. Walt starts yelling at him to go back. At first Vincent doesn't listen, then all of a sudden he turns right around and starts swimming back. Could this be another example of when Walt thinks about what he wants, he gets it?

[Chinamom]

JIN/SUN FB - Coffee spill, Jin meets Mr. Paik's associate.

Q: How do you know this? I thought Jin was just going to the restroom to clean up the coffee.

[truffula]

chinamom - I should've fully written out that. Those notes are EXACT from me typing as I watch (minus spelling errors).
I meant to say Coffee spill, Jin goes to the bathroom, runs into Mr. Paik's associate, intro Hawaiian shirt guy (who I STILL think is gonna be a tail section survivor).
No association whatsoever. I wasn't implying Jin is in cahoots with Paik and his associate.

Now, for some more reflections on this fine episode.

- Ana: "not a drinker?", Jack: "no, not really". What the hell are they talking about? I believe I see Jack DRINKING at the bar. Perhaps he's embarrassed about being caught at the airport bar at such an early hour by such an attractive woman. Or does Ana somehow KNOW about Jack's father?
S2 and Ana Lucia....questions that must be answered.

- about 1 week before the flight Sawyer and Christian had their chat in the bar. So after this chat, Sawyer did what...
shot Duckett, punched a govt official in a bar...this one I'm a little hazy on. In this FB the cop says he was there 3 days ago and kicked his desk and broke his mug (this was when he was speaking to Boone - from Hearts and Minds). So why was Sawyer at the station twice? From what I gathered from the FBs, they didn't realize who it was that Sawyer hit until 3 days after the fact, and they hauled him back in to deport him?
No, something else happened. Wait and see.

- what exactly did Arzt see/hear to make him run thru the jungle like that? If it was the Monster wouldn't we have heard it alot sooner? No, he saw SOMETHING ELSE. Possibly what the security system is protecting, possibly the RADIO TOWER, since Danielle has said it is "up by the Black Rock".

- so the "monster" is now a Security System for protecting something. Well, the Hatch isn't it (unless Locke is IN on IT) otherwise the SS would've been all over Locke, Boone, Sayid, Jack, Kate, Hurley if it was something to protect.
My brother suggests that the contents of the Hatch were MEANT to be found, along the lines of "we're all here for a Reason", and the SS/Island/Others/whatever is going on WANT the Hatch opened. It is part of the GAME.


Keep em coming, this is our last chance til SEASON TWO!!

[FWC2210]

And,on the plane when the flight attendant gives Jack some extra bottles of liquor,he adds one to his glass,which already has at least one in it,and downs it in one swallow.And later at the pool with his father,drinking straight from the bottle.Not sure what it means but there is definately somethng odd about his denial.

[Homer Noodleman]

Jack's a falling down drunk just like his dad. Seesh, they introduce him in his airplane flashback pouring as much booze down his gullet as he possibly can.

[scottq74]

I meant to say Coffee spill, Jin goes to the bathroom, runs into Mr. Paik's associate, intro Hawaiian shirt guy (who I STILL think is gonna be a tail section survivor).

I now think Mr. Paik's associate (hereafter "the Hawaiian shirt guy") will be one of the other survivors, too. But I think it adds credence to the possibility that the other survivors are from the First Class section of the plane, not the tail end. (For those of you who don't know, I base this theory on the fact that Boone told Shannon that they couldn't get into First Class, yet there were several empty seats when Jack, Charlie, and Kate went through the front end of the wreckage while looking for the transceiver.)

Why would the Hawaiian shirt guy fly in the back of the plane if he's trying to keep tabs on Jin and Sun? He wouldn't. He'd use his Paik, Inc. expense account to buy a First Class ticket so he could be off the plane and waiting in the terminal once Jin and Sun are through customs. Otherwise, he might have a more difficult time trailing Jin and Sun now that Jin knows he's being followed.

P.S. I think Ana Lucia's phone call she got in the bar was from someone who pulled some strings for her and got her into First Class, too.

[lostmio]

Sun gives Jin book of English, Sun and Jin make up

just one more example of why I love this show:
When Sun was hugging Jin, her watch showed 11:15, the same time she was supposed to leave him back at the airport.

[lostmio]

Why would the Hawaiian shirt guy fly in the back of the plane if he's trying to keep tabs on Jin and Sun?

His task might have been to make sure J&S got on the plane. Someone else could have been waiting on the other end to keep tabs on them in the US. (presuming the plan was to get them to the U.S. and not to land them on the island)

Probably Hawaiian Shirt had just previously seen & given a similar message to Sun. She was very nervous returning with the food, gave a weak apology for taking so long. The spill may or may not have been deliberate, not sure whether she knew Jin got a warning too.

[lostmio]

But it looked like he got her right above her right eye, maybe her right cheek area. So, why wasn't there a bruise on her face?

Because the scene was staged, like the bank robbery. At the bank Kate told her guy "not to hold back" because details are important. She probably told Mars the same thing but he couldn't make himself do it.

[Chinamom]

truff, thank you so much for the clarification! There is alot to keep track of, and you've done an excellent job this summer (((WILD APPLAUSE)))

ETA: deleted the rest of my post; wrong thread:\

[lostmio]

So why was Sawyer at the station twice? From what I gathered from the FBs, they didn't realize who it was that Sawyer hit until 3 days after the fact, and they hauled him back in to deport him?

First viewing I figured Sawyer had been in jail during this time while the incident was being investigated - the policeman mentioned witnesses, that takes awhile.
But you're right, there's more to the story and I think we'll see that same cop again.
I think someone made sure Sawyer was held on the trumped-up charges to make sure he got on that flight.

[scottq74]

And,on the plane when the flight attendant gives Jack some extra bottles of liquor,he adds one to his glass,which already has at least one in it,and downs it in one swallow.And later at the pool with his father,drinking straight from the bottle.Not sure what it means but there is definately somethng odd about his denial.

In my opinion, there's nothing odd about that denial. It's a very common trait among those that drink to drown their problems. Here's how I see it... Jack is seen drinking right before his wedding (a wedding that he doesn't seem to want to go through with) and right after his father died. Jack is a "man of science" who doesn't seem to have any god/religion/faith to help him deal with troubling times. So what does he do? He turns to a bottle. In his mind, he can still classify himself as "not really a drinker" even if he were to drink himself into a coma when times get tough. But in Jack's eyes, his dad (Christian) "is/was a drinker," because Christian couldn't even resist having a couple of drinks in the middle of the afternoon when he was scheduled to be in surgery later... Jack defines "a drinker" as one who has to have a drink every day, not as one who drinks to excess but less often.

[Ida Monster]

This probably been mentioned somewhere (such as The Numbers thread):

When added together, the numbers in Danielle's introductory speech (before Jack interrupts her) comes to a sum of 41. Add the newest person to join their "team" (her baby) and you get the magic number 42.

Our ship went aground on this island 16 years ago. There were 6 of us - my team, 6. At that time I was already 7 months pregnant. I delivered the infant myself. The baby and I were together for only 1 week when I saw black smoke - a pillar of black smoke 5 kilometers inland. That night they came - they came and took her - Alex. They took my baby. And now, they're coming again. They're coming for all of you.

[acovell]

Not as many questions about this episode, but still a few:

If Danielle's never seen the Others, how does she know they took her baby?

The smoke was definitely not there until Walt saw it. How did Danielle know about it to come and warn them?

Who's on the phone with Ana-Lucia? Is this important?

I think Jack was drinking club soda at the bar. That's why she said, "not a drinker?"

Why does Sawyer call the Australian cop, doctor? Because he glued the mug back together?

The toy airplane is important; it can't just be because it belonged to Tom, can it? The only thing I can think of is that it's the key to proving Kate's innocence -- how or why, I have no idea.

[equinox]

acovell wrote:
The smoke was definitely not there until Walt saw it. How did Danielle know about it to come and warn them?
Sayid asks her that question directly. She does not answer it. Good question.

Why does Sawyer call the Australian cop, doctor?
No special reason, I suppose. Because he likes to call people funny names.

The toy airplane is important; it can't just be because it belonged to Tom, can it?
I think it can.

[Chinamom]

Re: why Kate wants the toy plane--

When his 5-gun case was being inspected by the Australian authority, the Marshall told him that the reason Kate wants it is that she needs to "atone for the death of what's-his-name" (meaning Tom).

Are we supposed to believe that's it, or is there more?

I'm still baffled by the Marshall's additional statements that Kate figured out which bank in New Mexico had the plane and which safe deposit box it was in (good ol' #815) and got ahold of the partner key. How on earth would she be able to track all that down? And who had the partner key? And was it given willingly to Kate, or did she manipulate or rough up that person to get it?

And if the plane is crime scene evidence, why would it be in a bank box? Wouldn't be in police custody in Iowa, where the "crime" (Tom's death or Kate's escape) would be? And why would the Marshall be the one who gets to choose where to keep it? Wouldn't a CSI person take care of that? And why did the Marshall choose New Mexico?

I really hate this scene (where the Marshall is taunting Kate), for a couple of reasons--

One, he's just being downright sadistic. Maybe Kate did something really horrible and deserves it. But for the moment, she's just sitting there quietly until he goes too far, and only then does she attack him.

Two, the whole scene seems really patronizing to viewers. I envision the writers saying, "Well, they want to know about the plane, so let's give them the story" then they use the Marshall to spell it all out. It just seems like a really convenient way to explain things. Almost like cutting corners with the story, and not very convincing, in my opinion.

Alot of people here don't like Kate and think she's evil. I think she is severely misunderstood. I think something awful happened in her past (maybe or maybe not her fault) that led to an even more tragic chain of events in her life. It's as if she makes a decision based on a previous tragic event, and that only leads to more tragedy. She is definitely a manipulator and looks out for herself at times (stealing Joanna's passport). But other times, she's giving 110% to help the other survivors (collecting guava seeds, working on the equipment for the radio signal), sincerely despondent when she thought Charlie died, obviously shaken at seeing dying Boone). I think the Kate-haters might come around once we find out what happened in her past.

[acovell]

Chinamom, you and I are on the same wavelength on this one. Something much more is going on with that toy plane than just a memento of a dead loved one.

[thoughtform]

I know that Kate and Tom put that plane in the time capsule they made together when they were kids. I think Tom was hesitant to put it in because it meant something to him. I don't know if Kate wants the plane because it has sentimental value or some other reason we are not aware of yet.

In a way I feel Kate is attached to the plane because she has no attachments to actual people. I also think that it is possible that Kate suffers from the same "curse" as Hurley. It seems that everyone in her pre-island life was in danger when she was around. That could be why her mother was afraid of her. So if she couldn't be around those that she loves, she could attach herself to something that reminds her of them.

[acovell]

Thoughtform says:

In a way I feel Kate is attached to the plane because she has no attachments to actual people. I also think that it is possible that Kate suffers from the same "curse" as Hurley. It seems that everyone in her pre-island life was in danger when she was around. That could be why her mother was afraid of her. So if she couldn't be around those that she loves, she could attach herself to something that reminds her of them.

I agree that she's under the same "curse" as Hurley. In fact, in the Do No Harm thread, I went into some detail about it earlier this morning.

[thoughtform]

acovell, I know. I just replied to your post in the other thread!:D

[acovell]

acovell, I know. I just replied to your post in the other thread!

I'm relieved! I thought people were going to thing I was crazy!

[truffula]

Wow. Lots of good stuff goin on in here!
Where to begin...

scottq74 -
I think Ana Lucia's phone call she got in the bar was from someone who pulled some strings for her and got her into First Class, too

Very interesting thought. We'll find out in 13 days. :D

biscuitmom -
When Sun was hugging Jin, her watch showed 11:15, the same time she was supposed to leave him back at the airport

What an AMAZING catch!! Yeah, that's one of the reasons why LOST is one of the best shows EVER!!
Also -
I figured Sawyer had been in jail during this time while the incident was being investigated - the policeman mentioned witnesses, that takes awhile.

Having never been arrested or studied law, I never would've thought of this. Sounds right on to me. Explains ALOT.

acovell -
If Danielle's never seen the Others, how does she know they took her baby?
The smoke was definitely not there until Walt saw it. How did Danielle know about it to come and warn them?

Good point with both of those. She's definitely LYING about SOMETHING. I feel there is gonna be alot more about this Danielle Rousseau. And I never caught the smoke not actually appearing til Walt saw it - very creepy.

And now to Kate's toy plane.
I'm with those of you who think there's more to it than just the keepsake of a loved one.
Could it have some sort of tracking device in it? Or maybe it's a reverse homing beacon, like, the Island and it are connected somehow.
Then I got to thinking about the origin of the miniplane.
Tom's flight by himself (I assume the Captian of the plane on which he flew gave him the miniplane, or perhaps one of the flight attendants), which was supposed to end up on the Island, didn't because of something Kate's father did when he found out Tom (Kate's sweetheart) was on the flight. This pissed off the others (etc) so they killed him and framed Kate ("what I supposedly did, I'm goin to jail for"). Knowing about her father's work somehow is the reason she's always on the run. I think the miniplane ties in with this possible wild story somehow. I just haven't figured that one out yet...

Again, great posts in here, keep em coming.
13 days left!!!!
WHOOOOOO!!!!!!

:p

Peace,
Truff

[clayseason1]

I don't know if this scene took place in Exodus part one or part two.
In Sun's flashback to the airport terminal when she spills the drink on Jin, the woman in the background is reading a script. Someone recently on this board (I've tried to find that post but have not succeeded) indicated that the woman was reading a script from "Nash Bridges".
I had a screencap of that but couldn't make out the title. So, I went in search of more screen caps and this is what I found. (all images lost media)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/sun1.jpg

link to hi res picture (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/exoduspart1-754.jpg)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/sun12.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/385878/sun12.jpg

Both screen caps are from Sun's flashback only moments apart. Yet TPTB switch the scripts or at least put in a different title page with larger font so that the title could be made out.
Now this is exodus not the pilot. TPTB know what a mega hit they have. They know how the internet fans look at everything. This is deliberate.
I know that Nash Bridges was created by Carlton Cuse and this could be considered an "inside" joke. But.....the page was switched in mid scene.
Also why read a script from Nash Bridges? That program ran from 1996 to 2001.
internet movie data base - nash bridges (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115285/)

[SpidermanHouston]

It looks like the woman has other scripts on the table. Maybe she switched them between those moments. But I think you answered your own question. Since Carlton Cuse wrote Exodus, it is probably an insider joke/Easter egg. I wonder what is the title of the first script. I doubt they are in the Nash Bridges time period since they also showed Walt playing with a newer game-boy model. That is a cool and funny find though.

[clayseason1]

It looks like the woman has other scripts on the table.
I totally missed that. What good eyes you have Spidey. :)

Then yes I think they did switch the scripts. I wonder if it was a joke on Carlton Cuse. :)

[SpidermanHouston]

You are the one with the eyes noticing the two different titles. I also notice on imdb that Daniel Roebuck aka Arzt was a regular guest on Nash Bridges. I was trying to see if that actress holding the script was a guest star on Nash Bridges also.

[clayseason1]

I also notice on imdb that Daniel Roebuck aka Arzt was a regular guest on Nash Bridges.

I remembered him from Matlock.

I have another picture - I think I'll post it in "special" and get your opinion of it.

[looloolou]

Hello! I have looked around quite a bit at different threads and have some thoughts and questions that are still unanswered from this episode (although its hard to remember where exodus 1 and 2 divide, so forgive me if I cross over)

My big revelation during this episode this time around came when the police officer gave Sawyer his deporation ticket. All of the main characters have a last minute ticket for this flight. None of them, as far as I can tell, bought their ticket very far in advance, which seems unusual for a long, international flight that would be very expensive. Also, many of the tickets were given to them instead of purchased.

Sawyer - ticket to be deported
Kate - ticket to be extradited
Sayid - ticket given to him for his betrayal of his friend to the government agents
Hurley - last minute to investigate the numbers
Jack - last minute to go find his dad and then to bring home his body
Michael and Walt - given to him by Brian (was that his name?) to go get Walt after Walt's mom dies
Boone and Shannon - last minute to go rescue Shannon and then again to bring her home after her boyfriend cons her
Jin and Sun - "errand" for Sun's mafia dad
Locke - says on phone that he bought the tickets that day for later in the week, then is denied the Walkabout trip
Claire - ticket given to her by psychic to take baby to adoptive parents he found in LA
Charlie - I think his ticket was to go to do a comeback tour in LA? Sorry, dont quite remember this.

Also, many of them almost dont make the flight. Sayid's ticket was originally for the day before but he insists on staying one more day to be able to claim his friends body for a proper Islamic burial. Hurley almost misses the flight in many ways. Jack almost can't get on because of his fathers coffin. Sun almost leaves her husband there at the airport. Charlie is also late leaving for the airport, as shown in the elevator. Again, no idea what this means.

But none of them were exactly on vacation in Australia, with a ticket they bought months ago from a travel agent, which you would kinda think some of them would be. I dont have any idea what this means, but its seems significant.

I also wondered alot about Danielle in this episode. When they go to the hatch it looks to me like she touches the hatch in the same spot where Hurley later sees the numbers. She knows about the numbers too, so why would she not say something about this?

Also, how does Danielle travel the island so quickly during these two episodes? She says at the hatch that they will have to leave within the hour to get from the beach, to the Black Rock, and back before sunset. Yet she manages to get from the beach, to the Black Rock, back to the beach, take Aaron and then get to the other beach that appears to be across the island with the black smoke in less time than anyone else, while carrying a baby. How is that? It seems very out of whack time line wise.

The flashback to the airport bar they again talk about seat assignments. This emphasis makes the screwed up seat assignments all the more glaring in Exodus 2. I just dont get this at all. That whole flashback seems to be about reinforcing the seat assignments and establishing the time. Other than introducing the character of Anna-Lucia, what else is significant about this whole flashback?

The same with the one with Sun and Jin. What did this contribute? I have watched this one over and over and see no reason for it.

Shannon and Boone's flashback seems to be to establish that she had had a conversation with the creepy gate agent that meant they could not have the first class tickets, and putting her and Boone in the middle of the plane and therefore on the island as survivors.

How does Sawyer know that the Christian he met in the bar in Australia is Jack's dad?

The flashback with the Marshall is all wrong. I just am not buying this whole story at all. The most glaring thing to me is that no commercial airline is going to allow anyone, law enforcement or not, to have a regular gun (or five) on an airplane. Air Marshalls use a special kind of bullet (ceramic maybe?) that will not pierce the body of the plane. Any other kind of gun can cause big problems for the plane if it is fired.

Anyhoooo...those are my unanswered questions after reading page after page (including the original Exodus 1 thread). Anybody with any answers would be great!

[equinox]

looloolou wrote:
Also, how does Danielle travel the island so quickly during these two episodes? (...) It seems very out of whack time line wise.
Yes. Good question.

The flashback to the airport bar they again talk about seat assignments. This emphasis makes the screwed up seat assignments all the more glaring in Exodus 2. I just dont get this at all. That whole flashback seems to be about reinforcing the seat assignments and establishing the time.
Exactly. That's why an explanation in terms of "continuity error" makes little sense here. TPTB draw the viewer's attention specifically on the seat assignments with big red flashing arrows, and then we're supposed to think that, a few minutes later in that very same episode, they would just forget about it all, screw up with something central to their whole story, and even fail to fix it in post production?

(...) the one with Sun and Jin. What did this contribute? I have watched this one over and over and see no reason for it.
It is possible that all FBs don't necessarily contribute to the overall story. But one element of interest in this scene from Exodus I (which is likely from Sun's point of view) is that it must certainly be seen in comparison with its almost twin scene from Exodus II (which is likely from Jin's point of view). The comparison of the two points of view reveals subtle differences. For example, the English-speaking couple is heard and understood by Sun in her FB, but is ignored by Jin in his FB. Some people have discussed elsewhere if other small differences in the two scenes are significant or not. In fact, this scene, in conjuction with its twin in Exodus II, might be a major clue about the manner in which the writers use the flashbacks in the whole series in general and how they are to be interpreted.

How does Sawyer know that the Christian he met in the bar in Australia is Jack's dad?
His realization comes when Jack uses one of Christian's favorite sayings: "And that's why the Red Sox will never win the series." Probably everyone already knows that Jack was trying to bring back his father's body from Australia, and when Jack confirms to Sawyer that his father was a doctor, Sawyer realizes that with all those similarities it is probably the same person.

The flashback with the Marshall is all wrong. I just am not buying this whole story at all. The most glaring thing to me is that no commercial airline is going to allow anyone, law enforcement or not, to have a regular gun (or five) on an airplane.
I'm not buying that story either, but for different reasons. The gun that the marshal keeps with him should not have been allowed in real life, but apparently it was, in the show's story, and so were the four others in the case. I'm not sure what you are concluding. Are you just saying that this wouldn't happen in real life, or are you suspecting something else about the story? Like the Australian and U.S. governments forced the airline to allow the guns on the plane or something?

For me, it's more the marshal's "I need five guns" speech that doesn't make sense. And I can't bring me to believe, as some people have suggested, that the writing of the show is so bad that this was only a lame idea that the writers came up with so they could have the characters run around the island playing with a plethora of guns, with no connection at all with something more meaningful in the story. The marshal's excuse to have the guns with him is made to sound so ridiculous that I'm quite sure that it is deliberate and that the viewers are meant to say "whoa, that doesn't make sense". Besides, we haven't seen the characters on the island really needing all those guns at all for the story. They could have had only one gun (and maybe some spare bullets) and that would have been more than enough to write all the scenes we have seen so far. I think it's possible that the marshal (with or without the help of someone in the airline's personnel) brought the guns on the plane because they were supposed to be available either for a team of five pirates, on the plane, or for a team of five people, with good or bad intentions, wherever they expected or knew the plane could or would end up.

[clayseason1]

looloolou
Welcome to Lost-TV forum.

I don't know if I'll answer any questions but I'll share some of my thoughts on the points you mention.

All of the main characters do seem to have "last - minute" tickets. There are several theories that promote the idea that they were manipulated onto flight 815, either by fate or by persons unknown. Of course, we'll have to get a better idea about the island before we can determine motive.

Charlie, by the way, was approached by someone to do a "comeback" tour. He went to Australia to convince Liam to join him as the deal was off if Liam wasn't a part of it. I think whoever approached Charlie about the tour gave him the ticket or was it tickets? I think Liam was supposed to be on the flight as well.

Good points about Danielle - I didn't notice the area of the hatch she looked at. Absolutely great observation about the time of the trip though - and the survivors didn't make it back to the hatch until dark. So maybe there's a shorter way to the Black Rock - maybe less dangerous as well?

As far as Ana Lucia - yes the scene does introduce her and place her in the tail section of the plane. I've always been bothered by her parting remark to Jack - something like - "the hardest (or worse) part was over now" - What did that mean?

I am fascinated by Sun and Jin's flashbacks. We get to see the same scene from a different point of view. Sun appeared more nervous to me in Jin's flashback. Also from Jin's point of view, we get to see the confrontation between Jin and the Hawaiian shirt-guy.

In my opinion, the only differences between Sun and Jin's shared experience should be the emotions, expressions and the props within their vision. The background elements, which they cannot see should be the same. But there are differences. Differences that I think are not continuity errors or point of view differences.

For example: (I can't remember which is which now) in one point of view - the blonde lady at the table behind Jin is holding a cup - in the other point of view she is holding a brochure - in the first point of view, there is no brochure anywhere at her table. There are several more examples but I won't go into them at this point. I'm waiting to see if TPTB answer that question in Suil's interview - about points of view.

Shannon and Boone wind up in business class and survive the crash. As you infer - seems to be another manipulation.

During Christian's conversation with Sawyer, Christian says "that's why the red sox will never win the series" - a line that Jack repeats to Sawyer on the island. That with other common elements leads Sawyer to believe (and correctly so) that Christian was Jack's father.

I agree with you about the Marshall and the guns. It's either overkill to illustrate how dangerous Marshall thinks Kate is or there's something else going on.

[SpidermanHouston]

I think Liam was supposed to be on the flight as well.
When you see first see Charlie in his airplane seat in Pilot part2, the seat next to him is empty. I also believe that was supposed to be Liam's seat.

[looloolou]

Well thanks for refreshing my memory about why Charlie was there. I knew it had something to do with a comeback tour!

Has there been other discussions about the last-minute ticket thing? I looked and looked and could find nothing and would love to know what other folks are thinking about this. I am sooo curious!

I think my curiosity about the Sun/Jin flashbacks is that it is the same one done twice, from each POV. While they have done this before with them, like the bloody hand washing in the bathroon, I just have a hard time believing they cut the scene with Claire and the pilot, which was a different scene, to run the same one again with Jin's viewpoint. If it wasnt contributing something new to the story, why run it and not the new scene? There must be something there I am not getting.

As for the Marshall, yes I think there is much more going on than the obvious. The guns without the special bullets, the five guns (you can only use two at a time, and then only if you are really good), no extradition from a foreign country, the small airplane being in the marshall's possession again, all of it makes NO sense to me.

I bet Liam was supposed to be sitting next to Charlie. There were overall many empty seats on the plane. This is not the way any flight I have taken since 9/11 has been. The airlines seem intent on filling every single seat lately. I think maybe twice I have even had one seat next to me empty, let alone a whole row. The days of being able to lay across a row to take a nap during a red eye seem very much gone.

Anyhoo...thanks for your responses. I love this show and hope that the writers live up to my expectations.

[lostmio]

Welcome lou!
Your points are well-stated and valid.
I had the same response to the dual Jin/Sun scenes, don't know if they were worth the air time other than to point out the obvious: that pov is a factor in ALL the fb's. D'oh. I'm enamored with the Jin/Sun characters but once was enough.

Ditto on the Marshall's guns. Frankly I'm convinced the whole scene was staged by him & Kate a la the bank robbery as a ruse to get the guns aboard. To me that's almost a given.
As to the purpose of getting the guns aboard, I have specs (posted in the T&S forum) and am always open to other specs, but regardless of motive, the scene is staged. Period.

Lots of questions, no answers, can't wait for season 2.

edited to add: I love the spec re Charlie and Liam. I hadn't considered that altho I've posted frequently and loudly about the vacant seats.

[truffula]

biscuitmom -
I'm convinced the whole scene was staged by him & Kate a la tthe bank robbery as a ruse to get the guns aboard. To me that's almost a given.
EXACTLY.
can't wait for season 2
RAAAAAHHHH!!!! :D :D :D
Me too!! :p

[lostmio]

Someone recently on this board (I've tried to find that post but have not succeeded) indicated that the woman was reading a script from "Nash Bridges".

CS, the reference is in spoilers -the "major spoilage!" thread.

I hadn't made this catch prior to that post, but there are several things awry in the Jin/Sun airport cafe scenes. Long ago and far away I posted them, then deleted the post and said basically "well, (s)he who has eyes to see, go to the screencaps and see". No dvd then.
Unfortunately when I deleted my post I didn't keep a copy for reference. All I remember now is the cup lid continuity error, so obvious it made me wince. I doubt it could have been accidental.
At the very least, the scene showed that Sun was visibly nervous and made a weak excuse for taking so long to return with the food. Highly likely, imo, that she had just been given a similar warning to the one Hawaiian Shirt guy gave Jin.
Contradicting my just-now response to Looloolou, your post has me reconsidering the importance of the Jin/Sun scene(s) and rekindling my theory that the Exodus trilogy was a veritable font of revelations for the "loyal viewer".

[lostmio]

EXACTLY.

Truf, now I know how Hurley felt when Danielle agreed with him re the numbers curse.

[equinox]

biscuitmom wrote:
As to the purpose of getting the guns aboard, I have specs (posted in the T&S forum)
This is something that has been puzzling me for a long time. I'd love to read your speculations about it. Any suggestion about the name of the thread we should look for in T&S?

[lostmio]

I also wondered alot about Danielle in this episode. When they go to the hatch it looks to me like she touches the hatch in the same spot where Hurley later sees the numbers. She knows about the numbers too, so why would she not say something about this?

Another good catch.
In T&S (theory & specualtion forum) I've recently posted that Danielle knows more than we've been led to believe. This is one more affirmation of that.

(Briefly summarizing, I think she's being used by the very human powers that control the island. Their leverage is her belief that they have her child(ren). These humans are in the early stages of trying to recruit Hurley and his mega bucks for their cause. What their cause is, I haven't any idea but at this point it doesn't matter.
As part of this effort, they've given Danielle the numbers to enable her to "bond" with Hurley. She's a reluctant lackey, which explains a lot about her behavior. All she wants is to do what they ask, get her child(ren) back and hook 'em out of there.)

[lostmio]

This is something that has been puzzling me for a long time. I'd love to read your speculations about it. Any suggestion about the name of the thread we should look for in T&S?

Austra, I started the kate/hurley/numbers and con games threads to develop some early ideas and get feedback.
I haven't fleshed it out but basically, I think Kate is a major player in the game being hosted by the human powers mentioned in my post above.
The human powers recruited her via whatever was driving her to be on the run - my best guess, pending season 2, is they played upon something involving her father and also possibly Tom's death/injury. They know what make Kate tick.

The bank robbery plays into it in a big way. At the least, I'm guessing she didn't know what was going to be in the s.d. box and was surprised to find the toy plane. The island powers either manipulated or knew about the whole bank robbery con. (No big stretch, if you start thinking about the powers and their lackeys in terms of real people like Cooper, Hibbs, Marshall, etc). Upon finding the plane, she may have realized that Tom betrayed her (called the authorities while she was talking to Diane). This would go a long way in explaining her obsession with the plane: not only her guilt about his presumed death, but also her awareness of his betrayal, her confusion about how he relates to the island powers, etc. She's still trying to figure all that out. (check the many screen caps and/or dvd shots of Kate and the plane)

Pushing it a little, the bank robbery may even have been a test of sort imposed by the island powers upon Kate, with her full awareness. She had an enigmatic exchange with a bank official about a "theatre in Ruidosa". A theatre implies a stage, or a con.
And - I'm reminded of the many early criticisms of Lilly's acting. I remember someone saying "she takes me out of the moment" re some of her scenes on the island. Lilly, who imo is doing a superb job, may be nailing the director's cues. I understand the dvd emphasizes her ability to do this. Kate, not Lilly, is "acting".

Back to your question: the guns. Kate bought in, agreed to conspire to get the guns on the plane and hence, the island. To what extent the marshall & she were on the same page, I don't yet know. Imo, he had less knowledge than Kate about the conspiracy but nonetheless his knock on the head and subsequent death was accidental and threw a wrench in the works. Kate was genuinely sad when he died and is less confident of her role as a result.
Whew, aren't you glad (not) you asked?

[clayseason1]

To what extent the marshall & she were on the same page, I don't yet know. Imo, he had less knowledge than Kate about the conspiracy
Or perhaps more...
When the turbulence on the plane started, Kate appeared genuinely afraid, yet the marshall had a smirk on his face. He was almost laughing. What do you make of that?

[looloolou]

Ok...THAT makes sense to me about Kate and the Marshall. She was a little too concerned about him dying...which at the time we all thought was because she didnt want to be "outed" to the rest of the survivors. But it might very well have been that she was worried about carrying out her role on the island without him as they were supposed to work as a team. And it would also explain why the Marshall tried to choke her and told Jack not to trust her as he blamed her for his death, thought he had been backstabbed (or in this case tummy stabbed) after he had done his part. So he wasnt really a Marshall, he was someone playing a role. This clicks for me.

But what about the scene in the pilot where the "Marshall" comes to get her? Why crash the truck? And what about the conversation about the reward money? Why would she be worried about the farmer getting the reward money if she wasn't really a fugitive?

Interesting...

Although I still maintain that no airline would allow a regular gun on its plane for any reason, including transporting a prisoner. Its just too dangerous.

[acovell]

Ok...THAT makes sense to me about Kate and the Marshall. She was a little too concerned about him dying...which at the time we all thought was because she didnt want to be "outed" to the rest of the survivors. But it might very well have been that she was worried about carrying out her role on the island without him as they were supposed to work as a team. And it would also explain why the Marshall tried to choke her and told Jack not to trust her as he blamed her for his death, thought he had been backstabbed (or in this case tummy stabbed) after he had done his part. So he wasnt really a Marshall, he was someone playing a role. This clicks for me.

I wish I could say it made sense to me. It just doesn't. The Marshall treated her so brutally, whether or not people were watching or listening, I don't think they were in cahoots with one another. I also don't think that he would have been so adamant about outing Kate to Jack. He was wracked with pain and probably knew he was going to die. What good would it have done him to keep up a charade at that point? And what good did it do Kate (or any "plan" they may have had) to be, at least temporarily, ostracized and under suspicion?

I think he believed what he was saying about Kate was true. I also think they had some sort of relationship beyond a normal marshall and criminal situation, but I'm not sure how "personal" it was. He clearly blamed her for something that affected him personally, but my guess is that it was more along the lines of his career being damaged by her ability to escape from him so many times, rather than any sort of personal attachment he may have had to her.

The scene with the guns was over the top, but he was baiting her the whole time, trying to get her to attack him, in order to justify the necessity for five guns. I would imagine she disarmed him more than once in the past, and while five guns may be a bit extreme, he may have felt justified. In the end, I think that scene was meant to show us (and the Aussie official) how dangerous Kate could be, and in order to do that, the Marshall had to provoke her hard enough for her to attack him in a controlled situation. Hence, the melodrama.

As far as her attempt to save him with the oxygen mask -- it was very typical of Kate's behavior. She pulled Ray out of the wrecked truck, when it would have been smarter to run away.

So, ultimately, I don't think there was any collusion between Kate and the Marshall.

[equinox]

looloolou wrote:
But what about the scene in the pilot where the "Marshall" comes to get her? Why crash the truck?
That's in Tabula Rasa (but that's not important). She wasn't happy to be caught by the marshal (why do so many people write "Marshall" like it were the proper name?). Even if they're both part of some unknown plan, she may not have entered into it willingly. She may be used by whoever they're working for because she has a gift or special abilities, but she was either trying to get away from it or she was after something more important to her.
-"I'm not going to do any more missions for you."
-"You can't quit. You are not free. You never were and you never will be."
-"Catch me if you can."
-"Hi, Kate... We need you, now. Here's why..."

Although I still maintain that no airline would allow a regular gun on its plane for any reason, including transporting a prisoner. Its just too dangerous.
You haven't answered my question about clarifying what you have in mind when you say that. :) (You don't have to answer if you don't want to.)

[looloolou]

Oooops! Thanks for the gentle corrections. I get the shows all kinda blurred together in my mind sometimes, so yes it was Tabula Rasa (whats that mean anyways?)

I write Marshall accidentally as I have a good friend named that and my fingers just do it automatically. :)

As for the gun, Federal Air Marshal's (I spelled it right that time, but then re-read this sentence and realized I had spelled it "write" instead of right! Sheesh!) are specially trained in how to fire a firearm in an aircraft and use special ammunition. Here are a couple of articles that I have summarized: www.gunsandammomag.com/ga...marshalls/ (http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/air_marshalls/)
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3039583.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3039583.stm)

While there is a small risk of de-pressurization if a bullet pierces the metal body of the plane, more so if a window is broken, there is a greater risk of taking out an electrical system, or hydraulic system, or ummm....a pilot or one of the other people densely packed into the space. Usually the bullets used are "frangible" or low-velocity, meaning they have limited penetration of hard surfaces, but penetrate soft surfaces and explode, so they will not pass through a body. Federal Air Marshal's have one of, if not the strictest, marksmanship test. For an Air Marshal, getting the shot right is critically important, due to the confined space, density of people, and fragile environment.


So that's why I dont think that any airline is going to just let any old law enforcement member from another country with no jurisdiction in their country take 5 guns onboard an aircraft.

[lostmio]

So he wasnt really a Marshall, he was someone playing a role. This clicks for me.

But what about the scene in the pilot where the "Marshall" comes to get her? Why crash the truck? And what about the conversation about the reward money? Why would she be worried about the farmer getting the reward money if she wasn't really a fugitive?

Actually I think he really was a marshal. Someone on the creative team said so that long after the episode ran.
My spec is that he presented the plan to Kate after he "apprehended" her.
Kate's telling the marshal to make sure Ray gets the reward money makes more sense if she found out it's a set-up because there'd be no problem with him getting the money if her arrest and the reward were real.
(also I sometimes use Marshall because Kate said "marshal(l)" and not "the marshal" in Exodus. That may have been a minor slippage on Evie's part or a ".... passengers of flight 815" type thing, where the writers intended to confuse us then later said 'oh,never mind, he really is a marshal'.)

[Hodgepodge]

truffula says:...Jack 23B, Ana 42F - their seat numbers on 815.
This could be a BIG CLUE - Jack #23, the second to last number of the sequence, Ana #42, the Last number of the sequence - they are both REALLY important to what is going to happen...Here's another indication there's something wrong with the seating. According to the scene in Pilot (Part 1), Jack is sitting in seat 23A. Moves to 23C to comfort Rose. Wollenstein was supposedly in 23C.

So, was 23A or 23B unoccupied? Or do we have somebody else in the bathroom?


truffula also says:...Jack gives Sawyer a gun (reversal of scene where Sawyer gave Jack back the gun from hunting Ethan), Sayid gets the rest of them...This is when I started looking for the Kleenex! By the end of the episode, we'd moved to TP.

...Walt gives Shannon his dog Vincent.
"Vincent took care of me when my mom died" says Walt (A Clue?)..."Where did I put those Kleenex?"

...Sun gives Jin book of English, Sun and Jin make up
Jin - i'm in this place because i'm being punished; stay with Jack, he'll keep you safe (side chosen)
Music heard as raft sails should be on LOST soundtrack.
Walt commands Vincent around as he chases the raft.
YAY!!!! THE RAFT IS OFF!!!!!!
YAY!!!!!!!!!!..."I know I put the box somewhere! Ok, just go and get me some TP."



truffula says:..."you have no idea what i'm capable of" says Shannon as she lies abut Sayid's bag (we've heard this line before, Jack to Kate about poisoning, as well as Sun to Mike when she reveals she speaks English)...Also, Locke to the walkabout guide.

[Hodgepodge]

Lost In His Eyes asks:Okay, at the end of this scene, Kate shoves The Marshall into the window because he is asking her what Tom's name was, tormenting her. He then elbows her in the face. Now, since I have never been elbowed in the face, I don't know if it would bruise or not. But it looked like he got her right above her right eye, maybe her right cheek area. So, why wasn't there a bruise on her face?This a good point LIHE! Check our first sighting of Kate again. When she first encounters Jack. Isn't her face/cheek red?


truffula says:I meant to say Coffee spill, Jin goes to the bathroom, runs into Mr. Paik's associate, intro Hawaiian shirt guy (who I STILL think is gonna be a tail section survivor).Now wouldn't that be something! How would Jin explain to the other survivors and Sun who he is? That's if and when he returns to the island.


truffula also says:- what exactly did Arzt see/hear to make him run thru the jungle like that? If it was the Monster wouldn't we have heard it alot sooner? No, he saw SOMETHING ELSE. Possibly what the security system is protecting, possibly the RADIO TOWER, since Danielle has said it is "up by the Black Rock".He had to go and talk to the "Others". Let them know he's going to pull the exploding dynamite trick and disappear.*whistling nothing in particular*


FWC2210 says:And,on the plane when the flight attendant gives Jack some extra bottles of liquor,he adds one to his glass,which already has at least one in it,and downs it in one swallow.And later at the pool with his father,drinking straight from the bottle.Not sure what it means but there is definately somethng odd about his denial.

Homer Noodleman says:Jack's a falling down drunk just like his dad. Seesh, they introduce him in his airplane flashback pouring as much booze down his gullet as he possibly canExactly Homer! Just like dear ole dad!

[DuyQ]

About Sawyer:
Are we to assume Sawyer has a fake passport with the name Sawyer on it? Cause his name aint Sawyer .

But then its the Australian government thats deporting him, so they KNOW his real name and they booked the flight, so why would it be under anything else but James?

If thats the case why does Hurley only find one name thats not on the flight manifest?? Only person on the island who knows his name is not Sawyer is Kate.

[SpidermanHouston]

If thats the case why does Hurley only find one name thats not on the flight manifest?? Only person on the island who knows his name is not Sawyer is Kate.
We did not see him question every single survivor on TV. Maybe when he got to Sawyer, he found out the details.

[sir viver]

We did not see him question every single survivor on TV. Maybe when he got to Sawyer, he found out the details.

Sawyer gave Hurley the flight manifest in Raised by Another, so it's very possible this conversation took place off camera. And Hurley would be sympathetic towards Sawyer because they both use an alias.

Their dice were made of bones.

[acovell]

Sawyer gave Hurley the flight manifest in Raised by Another, so it's very possible this conversation took place off camera. And Hurley would be sympathetic towards Sawyer because they both use an alias.

Although Sawyer doesn't know Hurley's real name. (On the raft, Sawyer, reads Hurley's message and says, "who the hell is Hugo Reyes?") You'd think that if Sawyer told Hurley his real name, Hurley would have told Sawyer his real name.

[sir viver]

You'd think that if Sawyer told Hurley his real name, Hurley would have told Sawyer his real name.

Excellent point - in that same episode, Hurley told Jack about his real name. And while we know the origin of Mr. Ford's alias, Mr. Reyes still remains a mystery.

I'm chalking this up to a continuity error - which I am loathe to do with this show - but for the reasons given earlier in the thread, the flight manifest would most definetly have listed James Ford not Sawyer.

Their dice were made of bones.

[clayseason1]

but for the reasons given earlier in the thread, the flight manifest would most definetly have listed James Ford not Sawyer.

I believe the manifest had both names on it. I think we will see the real Sawyer on the island at some point.

Hurley already knew Sawyer as Sawyer, so he would just check that name off .......and James Ford - just one of the missing or dead bodies. :eek

[DuyQ]

I believe the manifest had both names on it. I think we will see the real Sawyer on the island at some point.

That is an intresting possibility. However, when Hurley says there one name not on the list, wouldnt Sawyer think its him they talking about, cause he know his name isnt Sawyer...and when he found out that it was Ethan, wouldnt he be curious why thats the case??

It is highly unlikely that he would tell his real name to Hurley, it seems rather personal to him; even Kate doesnt know his real name and shes the only person he really talks to!

[LoStMyMiNd]

Maybe Ethan was the real Sawyer

[clayseason1]

That is an intresting possibility. However, when Hurley says there one name not on the list, wouldnt Sawyer think its him they talking about, cause he know his name isnt Sawyer
If Sawyer knew he was booked under James Ford then yes we would probably have seen Sawyer doing a doubletake and then when Ethan was outed, he probably would have asked to see the manifest again. Then he would see that both James Ford and his Sawyer alias were listed on the manifest.

But what if Sawyer just assumes that he is listed as Sawyer? He was deported. The officials would have escorted him to the plane and handed his papers to the gate attendant (I don't think the attendant would have said "Welcome aboard Mr Ford" - it would have been a silent transaction), then the papers would be handed to Sawyer, who gets on the plane and sits down. Did he realize what name he was booked under? Maybe not.

[Homer Noodleman]

Is it so unusual that a sales manager at a box company would know about the goofy fat guy who won the lottery and then bought his company?

[acovell]

That is an intresting possibility. However, when Hurley says there one name not on the list, wouldnt Sawyer think its him they talking about, cause he know his name isnt Sawyer

Actually, in thinking about this a bit more, I think there's probably a simpler explanation. Sawyer had the manifest to begin with. I'm sure that, before he gave it to Hurley, he would have checked to see if his name was on it. There are three possibilities:

1. Sawyer's passport was in the name of "Sawyer," so even though the police knew that wasn't his real name, they bought him a ticket in the name "Sawyer" just to avoid any problem in getting him out of the country; or

2. There's was someone else named "Sawyer" on the plane -- I actually doubt this one because James Ford would have seen it, realized there was a possibility that the real "Sawyer" was on the plane, and wouldn't have left the island on the raft if the thought the real Sawyer might be there somewhere.

3. Sawyer said to Hurley, "My name is really James Ford. Folks just call me "Sawyer" -- which Hurley would have understood and accepted, since his real name isn't "Hurley". Folks just call him that. He wouldn't necessarily have told Sawyer about it, though. (And I think it's doubtful Sawyer would have bothered to look on the manifest to see if there was really someone named "Hurley" on it.)

[clayseason1]

If Sawyer read the manifest, he would have seen the name Hugo with 2 seat numbers. After reading Hugo's message in a bottle leaving $160 million to his mother, Sawyer's con man brain would figure out that Hurley was probably Hugo.

It will be interesting to see the interaction between Sawyer and Hurley in the upcoming season.

2. There's was someone else named "Sawyer" on the plane -- I actually doubt this one because James Ford would have seen it, realized there was a possibility that the real "Sawyer" was on the plane, and wouldn't have left the island on the raft if the thought the real Sawyer might be there somewhere.

Agreed

[acovell]

If Sawyer read the manifest, he would have seen the name Hugo with 2 seat numbers. After reading Hugo's message in a bottle leaving $160 million to his mother, Sawyer's con man brain would figure out that Hurley was probably Hugo.

The only reason I doubt it is that there were 300+ names on the manifest. He might have checked to see if the name "Sawyer" was on it before he gave it to Hurley, but I doubt he would have read all the other names.

[123 Blink]

Sawyer may have had the manifest for other reasons. He may have wanted it to add to his stash of stuff, to be bargained for later by someone. Therefore, he probably wouldn't be interested in the names. Only Hurley was concerned with the names.

__________________________________________________

[DuyQ]

The officials would have escorted him to the plane and handed his papers to the gate attendant (I don't think the attendant would have said "Welcome aboard Mr Ford" - it would have been a silent transaction), then the papers would be handed to Sawyer, who gets on the plane and sits down.

I agree it would have been a silent affair, he aint too happy too leave and they wouldnt be saying nothing to him with that grump look of his.

Did he realize what name he was booked under? Maybe not.

Doesnt the ticket have the name you used to book it??

Would the Australian authorities let Sawyer keep his passport if he indeed had a passport under that name? Knowing that its fake? That would be like turning a blind eye wouldnt it?

[clayseason1]

Would the Australian authorities let Sawyer keep his passport if he indeed had a passport under that name? Knowing that its fake? That would be like turning a blind eye wouldnt it?

I don't know what deportation procedures are - and they probably vary among countries.
If I were deporting someone - those deportation papers and the person's passport(s) would either be on the plane in the pilot's control or forwarded to the authorities at the destination.

[SpidermanHouston]

Is it so unusual that a sales manager at a box company would know about the goofy fat guy who won the lottery and then bought his company?
I don't know much about stock and finances. Hurley was told by his finance guy that he was "the majority shareholder in a box company in Tustin." hurley didn't even know about it. Does that necessarily mean he bought the company and that he is the owner? Would the box company employees know about the majority shareholder of the company?

[Homer Noodleman]

A majority owner means he owns over 50% of the stock in the box company. That means he controls the vote at stockholders meetings. He's the owner.

Hurley doesn't appear to be paying attention to what his financial advisor is doing (not a smart move if he wants to keep his money BTW), so it is possible he is not aware of his own assets.

The workers at the box company, since their livelyhoods depend on it, would most certainly be aware of new ownership. Locke, as his title of Regional Collection Supervisor would indicate, was at some low level of management and would have an extra reason to be concerned since a buyout would likely lead to a management restructure.

'Course that's all in the real world -- in the Lost universe managers can blatantly berate and discriminate against disabled workers in front of witnesses and not be fired within ten seconds -- so who knows?

However, in the context of the narrative, pre-island Locke was a bitter man who thought life had dealt him nothing but blanks. Imagine what he thought of working for somebody who owned the company for no other reason than he was lucky enough to win a lottery. On the island their power relationship is seemingly reversed -- much room to develop that thread.

[YouFirst]

Was watching the scene where Walt gives Vincent to Shannon before the raft launches and picked up on something. It's already been mentioned about Walt touching people and his powers springing into action e.g. Locke and The Hatch.
Anyway go back and watch the part where he hands Shannon Vincent's leash if you can. It almost looks like he makes an effort to touch her hand and brushes it with his own. Maybe he wants to keep watching Shannon from wherever he's going to see that she's taking care of Vincent? This could also link to the fact that she can see him, he may have created some kind of connection. Just speculation. :)

[Hodgepodge]

YouFirst, let me welcome you to Lost-TV. I'm sure you're going enjoy the community. Make sure to read the Welcome forum, it's easy to get lost. Now to your post.


Was watching the scene where Walt gives Vincent to Shannon before the raft launches and picked up on something. It's already been mentioned about Walt touching people and his powers springing into action e.g. Locke and The Hatch.
Anyway go back and watch the part where he hands Shannon Vincent's leash if you can. It almost looks like he makes an effort to touch her hand and brushes it with his own. Maybe he wants to keep watching Shannon from wherever he's going to see that she's taking care of Vincent? This could also link to the fact that she can see him, he may have created some kind of connection. Just speculation. :)I'll definitle give that a look-see! But you're right, that would form the connection we've been seeing in S2.

It just makes me mad! Now with the loss of Shannon, we may never know if she's as "special" as Walt.

[YouFirst]

Thanks for the welcome Hodge! :) I know it's kinda frustrating, I was just starting to like her character too :(

[mrflibble]

Going back to the monster - I definately think it's mechanical - the noise it makes is like a lever winding round, like its a chain that has lockes leg pulling him allong, and the puffs of smoke are steam, as it's steam powered.
A mechanical trap to stop people going near that place, the howl that we hear also sounds a lot like a steam whistle, like on old steam trains.

[Hodgepodge]

Mrflibble, let me welcome you to Lost-TV. I'm sure you're going to enjoy the community. Make sure to read the Welcome forum, it's easy to get lost. Now to your post.


Going back to the monster - I definately think it's mechanical - the noise it makes is like a lever winding round, like its a chain that has lockes leg pulling him allong, and the puffs of smoke are steam, as it's steam powered.
A mechanical trap to stop people going near that place, the howl that we hear also sounds a lot like a steam whistle, like on old steam trains.You maybe proven right! I remember Rose saying it sound like something she'd heard before. And we know she lived in the Bronx, N.Y.

[xXxJessiexXx]

Does anyone think that maybe that was how Sawyer was manipulated onto the flight?

Sawyer: He head-butted me.
Calderwood: we have witnesses he did no such thing.

Maybe someone did headbutt him but the witnessess ganged up agaisted him to get him arressted and on that flight to LA.

Do you think maybe walt had some kind of visoon that made him not want to get on the plane? or do you think he was just being a stroppy kid. He did have visons of Locke and the hatch in the previous eppy.

Michael: you're getting on that plane.
Walt: No, I'm not.

[Stryker]

Going back to the monster - I definately think it's mechanical - the noise it makes is like a lever winding round, like its a chain that has lockes leg pulling him allong, and the puffs of smoke are steam, as it's steam powered.
A mechanical trap to stop people going near that place, the howl that we hear also sounds a lot like a steam whistle, like on old steam trains.

it's thomas the tank engine gone beserk. oh no wait, it's an experiment where thomas the tank enige's genes have been mixed with that of the predator and the alien and now you've got this invisible mechannical flesh eating steam producing locomotive that's out to rid all the pests that come onto the island.


could wel be so that the austrlians made up some crap to get sawyer get kicked out of the country. he probably acted like a real jackass in the bar and maybe he said some really rude things bout australia and australians. though being under the influence of alcohol.
on the other hand, maybe that minister may simply have given sawyer a pat on the should and said something like "hey buddy, where're you from, can I buy ya a drink". sawyer, being drunk and all, may've interpreted that the wrong way and let the minister dude have it.


if walt genuinely felt/knew that something was gonna happen on the plane, like a crash, i'm sure he would've made more of an effort to convince michael not to get on it.
to me, it was merely just a kid being frustrated and throwing tantrums. afterall, he still barely knew michael and at the airport it probably also started to sink in to walt that he was leaving his "home country" australia and his "real dad" brian. on the other hand, maybe he didn't fully realise that coz somehow that gameboy was the only thing on his mind.

[Donny2006]

Did anybody else absoulty shit theirself when Arzt blew up.

I jummped about 3 foot in the air then pissed myself with laughter.

Was a classic scene.

Sorry if this isnt relevent to anything.

[andromana]

I thought that sceen was the BOMB! No pun intended.;)

I was totally not expecting that to happen.

[ILikeLostBrunettes]

What language!!! I mean, come on. "Theirself" ???? What kinda word is that? hahaha ;)

[Donny2006]

What language!!! I mean, come on. "Theirself" ???? What kinda word is that? hahaha ;)


Hahahahahah
Oops, thats quite the spelling mistake.
Thereself**
There we go.
:thumbs_up

[Hodgepodge]

Just passing through! :whistling

[ILikeLostBrunettes]

Hahahahahah
Oops, thats quite the spelling mistake.
Thereself**
There we go.
:thumbs_up

Still wrong... in fact.. it's worse..

[Donny2006]

Still wrong... in fact.. it's worse..

Yeah im crap at spelling.

How is it spelt then?

[juanbong]

Quoted by Donny2006:
How is it spelt then?

Theirselves is the closest thing but I think you may mean themselves.

Quoted by Donny2006:
Did anybody else absoulty shit theirself when Arzt blew up.

Did anybody else absolutely sh!t themselves when Arzt blew up?

..and yes I spit out my beer when that happened.

[Donny2006]

Theirselves is the closest thing but I think you may mean themselves.


Did anybody else absolutely sh!t themselves when Arzt blew up?

..and yes I spit out my beer when that happened.

To be honest.
Its spelt right but i speak diffrently from you.

Because i'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say you probibly dont say things like "total reengin afreakile breekmees"

and with that in mind i would say thereself.

Thanx for correcting me. I learn from mistakes. I just thought id point out that we speak diffrently.

[juanbong]

I agree that we may not speak the same, Donny2006, but now you have spelled it "thereself" and "theirself".

Because i'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say you probibly dont say things like "total reengin afreakile breekmees"

And you are right about the above sentence. I don't even know what "total reengin afreakil breekmees" means, let alone how to pronounce the quote.
I am not trying to be an ass, just trying to understand what you are saying. Speaking differently is cool with me, just so an explanation or interpretation is at hand as well. We cool?!

[Donny2006]

I am not trying to be an ass, just trying to understand what you are saying. Speaking differently is cool with me, just so an explanation or interpretation is at hand as well. We cool?!

We are more than cool :D :D

Sorry if i sounded offended. I wasnt. I was just trying to explain that i say words that arent real.

And...

Its pronounced:
Total Reen-gin a-freak-al breek-mee-sss
it means
total stinking of f**king trouser mess.

Its all good in the hood:drinky:

[juanbong]

Quoted by Donny2006:
Sorry if i sounded offended. I wasnt. I was just trying to explain that i say words that arent real.

Thankee, thankee. :)

We good! :p

[Demsu]

Some notes of mine..

In this episode are two scenes that cought my eye. It's propably nothing but I'll say it anyways.
Right after Sawyer gives the new mast to Jin and Michael there comes the scene where Jack and the others are walking to Black Rock and at the background there is very square looking
"rock", so I wondered if it actually could be a hatch door ?

The other scene is when the "monster" has just passed and Hurley asks where is Arzt. Right after they start to move out, Jack
turns and you see how camera kinda gives attention to the background. I'm not sure if there is anything but I noticed there is this tree that has a square object on it.

ALSO! Does anyone else see faces in smokey as "it" bursts out from the ground after Kate tosses the dynamite in to the hole ?

-D-

[Hodgepodge]

Demsu, let me welcome you to Lost-TV. I'm sure you're going to enjoy the community. Make sure to read the Welcome (http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2)forum, it's easy to get lost. Now to your post.


Some notes of mine..

In this episode are two scenes that cought my eye. It's propably nothing but I'll say it anyways.
Right after Sawyer gives the new mast to Jin and Michael there comes the scene where Jack and the others are walking to Black Rock and at the background there is very square looking
"rock", so I wondered if it actually could be a hatch door ?

The other scene is when the "monster" has just passed and Hurley asks where is Arzt. Right after they start to move out, Jack
turns and you see how camera kinda gives attention to the background. I'm not sure if there is anything but I noticed there is this tree that has a square object on it.

ALSO! Does anyone else see faces in smokey as "it" bursts out from the ground after Kate tosses the dynamite in to the hole ?

-D-In all three of the instances you mention, can you provide us with screencaps?

And again, :welcome:

[jomac11647]

Themselves or thierselves would be plural. In order for the pronoun to be in agreement with the noun (else) the word should be hisself or herself.