Can someone PLEASE explain to me... [Archive]

azteclady

05-09-05, 02:13 AM

ThatHippieKid, I almost left this alone but in the end, I couldn't resist.

I think very few of the people who post regulary actually dislike Kate to any big extent. They don't trust her - which is an entirely different proposition.

And mistrusting her and wondering about her motivations makes her a great character - people ponder her, analyze her actions, dissect her reactions, etc. Her complexity, as KathyFan2 points out, is extremely atractive in a show such as this, where clues to the island's mystery seem to lie squarely with the characters.

MistyBlueAngel

05-09-05, 02:44 AM

i agree. Kate is splendidly enigmatic. And with that angelic exterior, it is difficult for people to not be attracted, to not scrutinize, no matter how they distrust her. Is she a Damsel or a Danger. That's her beauty.

Mattie

05-09-05, 04:11 AM

Definitely a little of both. Kind of like Locke...good...and bad.

ThatHippieKid

05-09-05, 01:48 PM

Well, see you guys are listing all the thing that make me LOVE Kate. But I've had lots of people say to me that they hate her, she's a Mary-Sue B**** (which makes no sense to me at all, she screws up big time, a lot) and that she's just generally annoying and not worth their time.

Thats the kind of Kate-hate I meant :\

Hodgepodge

05-09-05, 03:43 PM

ThatHippieKid, the World hates a liar! I think that has a lot to do with people not liking her. And I agree, that's not something I've fallen in love with either. But, what I love about her is, and I've mentioned it before, her unfeminine ways. Although, she's gorgeous and sexy, she's not afraid to get dirty. I don't know why I find that so inviting!

Homer Noodleman

05-09-05, 04:18 PM

I like the Kate character quite a bit -- she's probably my favorite character on the show. Along with Hurley, she seems to be the only one that goes back between and forth between castaways trying to keep the group together. Out of the women she is easily the most interesting and appealing (well, the maniac killer angle is admittedly a bit of a draw back). Shannon is a vapid gold digger, Claire is a bubblehead, and Sun is a muddle of a poorly drawn character.

That said, I think a lot of people genuinely don't like her, and I think that has to do with the fact that she basically is a Queen Bee buzzing between Jack and Sawyer. I think, and who knows maybe this will get me flamed, a lot of women really don't like pretty women who can push men's buttons so effortlessly to get what they want.

The Mary Sue stuff comes from the "Heart of Gold" schtick which the writers did slop on a little thick.

Mattie

05-09-05, 05:26 PM

The word discussion is in "discussion forum" for a reason.

Aristotle, is that you?

I agree with what you said about why people hate Kate though. They're jealous she's got the 2 best guys on the island.

ThatHippieKid

05-09-05, 06:47 PM

I think, and who knows maybe this will get me flamed, a lot of women really don't like pretty women who can push men's buttons so effortlessly to get what they want.

I think you're right! A lot of women are like that. I'm no exception, although this time it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Its a TV show, for cripes' sake. In real life that kind of thing irks me. But I love how Kate manages to do it.

Mattie

05-09-05, 07:30 PM

But I love how Kate manages to do it.

Me too. As long as she chooses Jack in the end.

CrazieBlueEyes

05-12-05, 02:55 AM

Since the onset, I have been ambivalent about Kate, but after tonight's episode (Spoilerish), I truly despise her. Whether the reason she ended up where she ended up was the result of innocence or guilt, when given the choice to stop running, she chose to run and, as a result, she sacrificed the man she "loved", a man who had a wife and a young baby and who appeared to have a promising medical career. She chose to bend to her own, selfish desires, despite the fact he pleaded with her to stop. Had she listened and heeded his request for her to stop, he would have lived.

Additionally, (again spoilerish), it is clear she used Sun to poison Michael. Horrifying!!!

I cannot stand women who use people for their own end.

That being said, I bet Ms. Lilly is having a blast playing someone so devious!

CBE

Chance Gardener

05-12-05, 09:11 AM

Had she listened and heeded his request for her to stop, he would have lived.I'd like to suggest that this argument is a two-edged sword. Had he listened to Kate and heeded her request, he also would have lived.

But yes, she manipulated Sun for her own ends. More and more she seems to be a sociopath which is disconcerting because she also seems to be highly empathic which would seem to be at odds in a sociopath.

Interesting that once her 'mom' (wonder why she told Tom 'Diane' has cancer?) realized it was her, she started yelling for help. Which also makes me wonder who sent the letter to 'Joan Hart' informing Kate of her mother's (Diane?) cancer.

LostInWilderness

05-12-05, 09:27 AM

Kate is no sociopath. She's selfish beyond simple immorality, but she can empathize - and a sociopath's failure is a lack of ability to empathize. Her deflective comment to Jack about "do you think I'm capable of that" bodes ill for all the lostaways.

Chance Gardener

05-12-05, 10:09 AM

M'well LIW, that is kinda my point.

Kate's behavior is beyond mere criminal selfishness. She has NO compunction about lying, manipulating, and causing harm to others. Which does cover many of the main criteria for a sociopath.

Yet at the same time, she seems to be highly sensitive to people or things that are defenseless specifically and seems to be empathic generally. Which conflicts with the behavior a sociopath generally exhibits.

Maybe someday drabauer will drift down here and read this thread and can shed light on this. Mmm, better yet, perhaps a theoretical discussion...

Homer Noodleman

05-12-05, 10:27 AM

It may be useful to look at her character from a narratvie view point. She is similar to the John Locke character in that both have been both adept at functioning in the jungle and morally ambiguous. The story of the last couple of episodes involved Locke getting isolated from the group over the whole Boone business, this episode involved Kate being isolated when her past surfaced. Both isolations where triggered by injuries to other castaways.

They might yet be the two poles, rather than Jack and Locke as is generally assumed the story rotates about. It is interesting they man she accidentally got killed was a doctor.

What might be of some significance as the story moves forward. Kate's woodland skills are real, while Locke's seem to derive largely from the intercession of the Island.

ThatHippieKid

05-12-05, 11:40 AM

Additionally, (again spoilerish), it is clear she used Sun to poison Michael. Horrifying!!!

She wasn't trying to poison Michael. Seems to me, that Kate knew the Sun didn't want Jin to go... so she suggested that they make him sick. Sun went along with it, got the meds, put them in the water... and as Jack said, pretty easy for Jin and Michael to get their water mixed up, especially when it was Walt that just picked a random bottle and threw it to his Dad.

Mattie

05-12-05, 04:09 PM

After last night I feel more sympathy for Kate. She feels reponsible for her friend's death! (She WASN'T...he asked him to get out of the car...he knew what she would do when he refused)

Plus her Mom obviously hates for reasons unknown...and now she's dead.

Poor Kate. I love how she's so deceiving.

CrazieBlueEyes

05-12-05, 08:25 PM

So you're saying if someone you knew had comandeered your car (and you were in it) and was running from the law and they asked you to get out of your car so they could take it on the run, it would be your fault if you met with an unfortunate end not the fault of your friend?

This logic both fascinates and terrifies me!

As for using Sun to poison Michael...that was intentional...it most certainly was for Kate's purposes, not Sun's.

Additionally, someone referenced that Kate is not acting like a sociopath. I have been unfortunate enough to know sociopaths and they are the most brilliant actors! They can turn on such emotion that you will believe anything they say.

I have often complained about how Kate has been written, but with these new revelations, my hat is off to the writers...This really is brilliant character development!!!

CBE

villana81

05-12-05, 08:33 PM

I LIKE KATE! but i kind of hated her yesterday, she´s such a liar and you can´t trust her and she expects Jack to do it , i don´t think sooo! Also didn´t like her attitude of taking Sawyer spot on the raft. But i still like her character deep inside she´s not bad.

Hodgepodge

05-12-05, 08:36 PM

I believe like ThatHippieKid, Sun got the idea to poison the water bottle from Kate, but it was for Jin. Now, if you can prove to me Kate switched the bottles so Michael would get sick that's another story.

And I don't want anyone to get the impression I condone Kate's methods to getting what she wants. I don't! It's apparently cost her everything she's loved. Maybe even Jack!

Mattie

05-12-05, 08:52 PM

So you're saying if someone you knew had comandeered your car (and you were in it) and was running from the law and they asked you to get out of your car so they could take it on the run, it would be your fault if you met with an unfortunate end not the fault of your friend?

Yes.

Tom knew she was a criminal and running from the law - he GAVE her his car keys. He didn't have to, he could have said no and waited for her to be picked up...but he ran out of the hospital with her. All the way to the garage. He didn't even have to get in the car but he did. She asked him to get out with conviction he knew what would happen if he didn't. He knew she was going to run. He made a choice to stay in the car. Of course Kate is partially responsible, but I don't think she's as responsible as she thinks she is.

Hodgepodge

05-12-05, 09:11 PM

You know KF2, I love Kate as much as you do, but I think she's responsible. That kiss she gave Tom at their little secret place gave him ideas. She knew he was married and had a son. Right or wrong, she rekindled his love for her. She should've known he wasn't going to get out of that car. She should've turned herself in. A woman and boy wouldn't be without him today if she'd looked out for someone other than herself.

Mattie

05-12-05, 09:16 PM

Hodge I agree she is somewhat responsible. But she didn't blatantly kill him. I feel she thinks she's a lot more responsible than she is.

When she first came back into town he could alerted the police but he didn't. That was choice #1.

He didn't have to take her to dig up the time capsule but he did. That was choice #2 (which led to the kiss and rekindling)

He made the call for a friend of a friend which got Kate's mom into radiology. Choice #3.

She asked for his keys and he agreed. He didn't have to do that. Choice #4.

He went to the parking garage with her. Why not just give her the keys and let her go on the run? Choice #5.

He got INTO the car. He sat down and got into the car! Choice #6.

She asked him to step out of the car. He says no. She asked again with a stronger "get out" and then added PLEASE on the end. He still said no. Then she said "GET OUT!" and he still stayed. Choice #7.

Then he got shot.

She came back into town and manipulated him into doing some of those things so she IS responsible. I guess I just see a lot that Tom could have done differently that wouldn't have led to that.

Hodgepodge

05-12-05, 09:34 PM

Kathy Fan 2 says:When she first came back into town he could alerted the police but he didn't. That was choice #1.

He didn't have to take her to dig up the time capsule but he did. That was choice #2 (which led to the kiss and rekindling)

He made the call for a friend of a friend which got Kate's mom into radiology. Choice #3.

She asked for his keys and he agreed. He didn't have to do that. Choice #4.

He went to the parking garage with her. Why not just give her the keys and let her go on the run? Choice #5.

He got INTO the car. He sat down and got into the car! Choice #6.KF2, you're telling me you'd be able to turn in your first love? No way in HELL! I remember my first love today fondly. Right or wrong, he'd forgotten all about his wife and son. I think he may've gone on the run with her.

Kathy Fan 2 also says:She asked him to step out of the car. He says no. She asked again with a stronger "get out" and then added PLEASE on the end. He still said no. Then she said "GET OUT!" and he still stayed. Choice #7.
He was trying to get her to stop running. He was trying to save her life. Instead, he looses his!

Mattie

05-12-05, 09:43 PM

KF2, you're telling me you'd be able to turn in your first love? No way in HELL!

Well she loved him and she was able to get over him. She wanted him out of the car. She didn't ask him to stay. It should have been easier for him to get over her, he's the one with a wife and kids, she wasn't! She had no attachments. But I understand his fascination with her and him not being able to resist.

He was trying to get her to stop running. He was trying to save her life. Instead, he looses his!

But he knew she wouldn't! He knew she would run. He's always known that from the "you always want to run away Kate" did he really think she'd stop because he refused to get out?

LostInWilderness

05-12-05, 10:52 PM

I think KF2 and Hodge are agreeing, but you can't tell it from those posts. Kate and whatshisname both share responsibility for his death, but like KF2 says, Kate thinks of it like she shot him or something. As bad as she should feel, she feels even worse.

Mattie

05-12-05, 10:53 PM

Hodge and I agree she's responsible, but I'm placing more of the blame on Tom's decisions rather than Kate's manipulations.

Hodgepodge

05-12-05, 11:07 PM

You're right KF2! I'm saying after that kiss, it brought back what she'd meant to him for all those years. He would've followed her anywhere.

azteclady

05-13-05, 07:05 AM

I am going to agree to a degree with CrazieBlueEyes and disagree loudly with KathyFan2 (and with Hodgepodge).

Kate knew how Tom would react to her presence and knew that she could manipulate him into doing anything she wanted. We don't know the whole story of why or how or when she left, but I'll bet big bucks he was left carrying a huge torch for her.

I believe that - if Kate is not in fact a sociopath - the guilt she feels over Tom's death is deeper because she intended using him from the very beginning, and she knew just how much she could get from him, she knew just what buttons to push. From that original manipulation his death came to pass - that is the source of her feelings of guilt.

If Kate is indeed a sociopath (which I doubt - her tears when she read the letter were private, without an audience to convince or mislead), then what we see is that she's grown even better at hiding her true nature and manipulating those around her. An extremely scary proposition in the castaways' situation.

But in any event, I will posit firmly that Kate didn't love Tom the same way he loved her, not with the same purity of feeling, not with the same depth - not at any point during their relationship, and not after his death. The torch Kate is carrying now is one of guilt not love.

edited because posting while sleep deprived is detrimental to the quality of my posts - I need coffee!

Homer Noodleman

05-13-05, 10:44 AM

I was going to wait for the transcript before jumping into this but... I'm not so sure Tom understood the seriousness of her situation with the law when he got into the car.

I don't recall him mentioning anything about her turning herself in to the law to straighten the problem out until after she hit the guard. Earlier in the episode he acted more as if she had left town under the cloud of some terrible scandal then as if she was a fugitive.

What I don't remember is what exactly was the conversation that led to the mother being rolled into the MRI room for the meeting.

Chance Gardener

05-13-05, 11:30 AM

She used Tom to arrange an MRI scan of her mom to get her mom away from the police surveillance.

Homer Noodleman

05-13-05, 01:42 PM

Chance,

To me there were a lot of things screwy in that story. I wonder if they weren't using our knowledge of Kate against us when they wrote it.

For example, it starts with Kate washing the blond out of her hair (ladies -- please don't jump on me if I got that process wrong) , why would she remove a disguise? Surely, if there was that big of a man-hunt for her they would know she was really a brunette. Also, if you're trying to catch Kate visiting her mother, why place a uniformed police officer outside her door? Why not place plainclothes officers around the entrances and grab her when she enters?

I think the cop outside the door may have been there to protect Kate's so-called mother from somebody, not to be looking for Kate.

Chance Gardener

05-13-05, 05:22 PM

Agreed homer

Hodgepodge

05-13-05, 05:34 PM

azteclady says:Kate knew how Tom would react to her presence and knew that she could manipulate him into doing anything she wanted. We don't know the whole story of why or how or when she left, but I'll bet big bucks he was left carrying a huge torch for her.

I believe that - if Kate is not in fact a sociopath - the guilt she feels over Tom's death is deeper because she intended using him from the very beginning, and she knew just how much she could get from him, she knew just what buttons to push. From that original manipulation his death came to pass - that is the source of her feelings of guilt...AZ, you need to read my posts again. Because I agree with your assumption completely.

Kate decided what she was going to do while waiting inside Tom's car. Diane needed an MRI, and she knew how to get it. Even their little trek to their secret place was a setup.

But, his death wasn't apart of the deal. Kate doesn't look at the big PICTURE when she gets an idea. That's why something always goes wrong. Look at the bank robbery. She didn't expect her accomplices were cold-blooded murders. So she had to come to the managers aide. Now, in Born to Run, she didn't expect Tom to forsake all and get in that car. In both instances, bloodshed was the result.

CrazieBlueEyes

05-13-05, 06:07 PM

Homer:

How do we know she wasn't a blonde dying her hair dark brown? Or maybe she's a redhead and has gone through a rainbow of haircolors to match her disguises?

CBE

azteclady

05-13-05, 06:45 PM

Actually, Hodgepodge, the MRI thing was simply a set up to allow Kate some time with her mother, as Homer Noodleman pointed out.

And to both Homer and CrazieBlueEyes: I took the hair dyeing as a indication that Kate needed to change her appearance immediately in the place where she was at the beginning of the episode, either because of something she had just done there that put her at odds with local law enforcement, or because her latest disguise had become known to the people who were looking for her (meaning that she's been a fugitive for a long time and has to keep changing her appearance each time the law gets close to her).

If I had to vote, I would go for the second option, though they are not mutually exclusive. She could have been on the run already and done something else that would put her right on the radar and necessitates her changing her appearance yet again.

SunKrux

05-14-05, 01:07 AM

azteclady says:But in any event, I will posit firmly that Kate didn't love Tom the same way he loved her, not with the same purity of feeling, not with the same depth - not at any point during their relationship, and not after his death. The torch Kate is carrying now is one of guilt not love.

I have to disagree. We are not yet privy to the extent of their relationship or exactly what Kate did (or didn't do). We know snatchs of what she's done (robbing a bank, shooting a man, aiding the bank robbers). I think that Kate does/did truely love Tom.

From what we've heard of their recording, I'm wondering if the reason Kate was always wanting to run had something to do with her home life. Was Pop abusive, mentally, physically, sexually? Was Pop out of the picture and was it one of Mom's many boyfriends? Considering the year they made their time capsule, I'm wagering that Kate was in her early/mid teens. I fear that something horrible happened to her at some point in her life to make her want to run.

Besides, can any one person really love another exactly the same way that person loves them? I don't think so. We are all different, so are the characters. ;)

I don't blame Kate for Tom's decission to stay in the car. That was his choice. I don't blame Kate for Tom deciding to spend time with her while his family was away, he could have said no. I don't blame Kate for Tom taking her to dig up the time capsule, again, he could have said no.

Contrary to what some may be thinking, I don't think Tom is as "innocent/naive" as he is being made out to be. I just think the man was still carrying a torch for her.

Basically, I don't think Kate is as horrible, evil, manipulative and all that jazz as most people do. I do believe that deep down inside, she is good. I think she's scared, scared of what will happen when/if she's caught. Scared that she will not be able to prove that she wasn't totally responsible for what caused her to run in the first place. In some ways, I wonder if she was set up - in the original first bad thing she "did" - then she saw no way out and has been running ever since. No one else believes her, why should she believe in herself?

LostInWilderness

05-14-05, 03:53 AM

Az writes:But in any event, I will posit firmly that Kate didn't love Tom the same way he loved her, not with the same purity of feeling, not with the same depth - not at any point during their relationship, and not after his death. The torch Kate is carrying now is one of guilt not love.
Wow, this is a hard one. Kate obviously took advantage of and manipulated Tom in a way Tom would never have done to Kate. But I don't the difference was the strength of their love, it was the level of Kate's selfishness. I think she loved him as much as he loved her. He's one the one who married someone else and started a family.

azteclady

05-14-05, 04:09 AM

LIW, we don't know under which circumstances Kate left town. For all we know, Tom could have waited for her for many years before marrying and having that child.

You say that it was not the level of their love for each other that was different, but the level of their selfishness (with Kate's being much greater). The thing is that we may be discussing semantics now, since for me a love easily overcome by selfisheness / self interest is no true love. Hence my comment on the purity of Tom's feelings for Kate, vs. her manipulation of those same feelings.

I'm not saying she didn't care for him, or that she doesn't regret his death (she clearly blames herself for it - and justly so in my opinion). What I'm saying is that she didn't love him the same way he loved her. Because even after who knows how many years, he immediately helped her, arranging for her to see her mother on the sly (and there's no arguing that he didn't know about the guard at the door), and followed her to try to stop her and talk her into what he thought could be her salvation.

All of the above speak of a deeper insterest, investment if you will, on Kate's wellbeing from Tom's part. I didn't see Kate's investment in Tom's wellbeing.

LostInWilderness

05-14-05, 04:13 AM

It may just be semantics, Az. Tom's love was definitely more "pure" than Kate's. I'm with you there.

EGlVM

05-14-05, 10:34 PM

Am I the only one around here that thinks Kate is a total moron?
OK, my reasons.
1- She has to be involved with everything. The raft. Sawyer feeling sick. Sun wanting Jin to stay. Looking for the cockpit. Wanting to capture Eathan. It seems this is the only way her character gets in the show.
2- She's a liar. 'Nough said.
3- She kissed Sawyer. Blah!
4- She always uses that stupid expression of "What?" Whenever someone asks her to do something important or asks her something personal, she uses this look. Like, when Jack needed her to get Sawyer's alcohol for Boone. Look. Or when Jack asked her if she poisoned Michael. Look. This is why I've said so many times before, If you need Kate to get something or answer a question, just slap her in the face so we don't have to deal with.... THE LOOK.

azteclady

05-14-05, 10:37 PM

EGlVM - please check your inbox.

Mattie

05-14-05, 11:25 PM

*hits AZ over the head* Stop with that red against green! Some of us like our corneas.

LostInWilderness

05-15-05, 04:01 AM

I see red over blue, but then again I'm chasing Az, and she runs fast.

EVIGM, did you raid your parent's liquor cabinet today?

Mattie

05-15-05, 04:09 AM

EVIGM, did you raid your parent's liquor cabinet today?

No comment.

:lol

Ktown91

05-16-05, 11:58 PM

I guess I posted in the wrong area but I used to feel sorry for Kate prior to last week's episode. I thought maybe she made some bad choices & the law thought she was more dangerous than she was. But whatever she was running from seemed to be more important than risking the life of her friend. To me, it doesn't seem like the first time she ran either. She seems to be a pro at running from things. Tom's death WAS her fault because whatever choices she made that made her feel like she HAD to run, I doubt had ANYTHING to do with Tom. SHE involved him in her scheme to run & his death was unnecessary. He, on the other hand, was thinking that if he wasn't w/ her she might do something even more awful than if she was alone. Maybe he thought after they ran he could get her someplace safe and/or talk her into turning herself in. HE obviously is not afraid of her, but her mother was. So, after last week's episode, I don't find myself liking Kate anymore, but distrusting her & not wanting her anywhere near Jack or Sawyer. Sawyer finally saw her for what she is truly capable of & Jack's been semi-suspicious all along.

Mattie

05-17-05, 12:21 AM

This episode definitely changed her character. She's more ruthless and hardcore now. We get to see that she's really into running from the law, and she's damn good at it.

I still have the feeling the writers can remedy this by making it something important that she's running from. And that she's truly innocent.

Otherwise her character will be spoiled...they have to explain this intelligently and with care.

EGlVM

05-17-05, 03:50 AM

EVlGM, Did you raid your parents liquor cabinet today?

What the hell are you talking about?! I'm under aged! And you misspelled my user name! It's EGlVM! Not EVlGM!

That's the second time someone has misspelled my user name!

Mattie

05-17-05, 04:50 PM

That's because it looks like an i not an L.

I hated Sawyer more after Born To Run than I did Kate.

Homer Noodleman

05-17-05, 11:36 PM

Ktown91,

I'm going to explain this in greater detail in my beloved Kate=Alex -- The Directors Cut thread, but in a nutshell... I believe Tom betrayed Kate.

He would have called the authorities from his house, but she talked him into digging up the time capsule. He didn't have a chance to call them until he got Kate and her mother into the MRI room. He then used the excuse of giving them their privacy to go to his office to make the call. That is why the police were already on the way when Kate started to flee. He then got in the car to try to stall her further.

Hodgepodge

05-17-05, 11:42 PM

Homer Noodleman, this one really came out of left field!

Homer Noodleman

05-18-05, 12:26 AM

Wait until you see the full explanation. I think I have a career as a nutty conspiracy theorist ahead of me! http://jazzopolis.com/pix/bong.gif

azteclady

05-18-05, 12:38 AM

Homer, I thought you were a conspiracy theorist of old.

EGlVM, you could have chosen an easier to understand and type screenname, if having it misspelled is such a problem for you. (Have you checked your inbox yet today?)

LostInWilderness, you really should run a bit faster, m'dear. I'm not all that hard to catch, am I?

Homer Noodleman

05-18-05, 03:12 AM

Bah, laugh at me all you want. I''m pretty sure somewhere in Hollywood JJ is banging his head against a wall and whimpering, "is there nothing, no matter how small, I can slip by this Noodleman fellow? Why, I'll bet that, along with being a braniac, he is a handsome devil too!"

BTW, rewatched the episode. A case can be made that Tom rolled Kate by calling from his office. Mighty odd those sirens approaching the hospital after Kate had clocked the guard before he got much of a radio message off.