Jack and Locke and the hatch

[mzsandeestar]

At the very end of the finale , do you think Jack and Locke saw something at the bottom of the hatch tunnel?

There is something in the ABC summary of the finale that says that what is found at the bottom of the hatch is unbelievable.

Was there anything in the expression of their faces that led you to believe that they saw something more than we were shown.


One of my disappointments with the last minute of the show was that they didn't show the reaction of those two characters.

If those two had just emitted an expression of sheer disbelief , it would have left the audience really wondering all summer about what they saw.

You know like a cliffhanger is supposed to do.

[Trapin89]

I don't think they saw anything at the bottom of the hatch.

[Been Jammin65]

I just assumed that the "unbelievable" thing was the fact that the tunnel/ladder went so deep underground. Prior to them opening the hatch, I always assumed that it led to a short drop to a room/hallway. I was suprised to find that there is something man made that is buried so deeply under the surface of the island. Why go to the trouble of building something so deeply underground? Radiation?

I don't think it was "unbelievable", but I do think that that is what they were referring to (trying to build interest).

[Brian]

Did anyone else catch the obvious action that, had it been done, would have given a cliffhanger ending? That being, either Locke or Jack to drop a torch down the hatch and then cut to black. Don't know what's down there, but it looks like they're going to need a lot of rope. Too bad Boone's not around, Locke could just talk him into dropping into the hatch. "Come on Boone, it's only a couple of feet at best!" :)

[Brian]

oops, double posted. Sorry 'bout that.

[TicaChica73]

LOL, Leuthen... Well.. they did look kinda surprised.. and it did go really far down... farther down than I was expecting. Plus there was a ladder.. and it was kinda bent out of shape... *shrug*

[lostndelirious]

"Too bad Boone's not around, Locke could just talk him into dropping into the hatch. "Come on Boone, it's only a couple of feet at best!" :) "


eeeee hee hee hee:rollin

[annaislynn]

what worries me now, is that they will go down the hatch, find another locked steel or whatever door and that will be plot for next season

At least they know where dynamite is

[Brian]

Uh huh! I knew it! Boone hadn't outlived his usefullness! Maybe Locke could get Charlie to do it? Nah, I'd hate for Turniphead to be without the closest thing to a father he's ever known.

How about Vincent? They always land on their feet.......no, that's cats. Here we have a perfectly good use for a cat and where are they? My kingdom for a cat!

Maybe Hurley? Nah, too much of an Augustus Gloop visual/possibility there.

Hell, given their relationship, Season 2 should open with the same scene that Season 1 ended with and then have Locke grab Jack by the back of the head and throw him down the hatch! He's already holding a torch. Killing two birds with one stone I say! :)

[dreamfall]

I think it's pretty obvious that Locke will be the one to go down the hatch. He risked his neck as well as everyone elses to open that damn thing, he's not just going to give up now.

I wonder if they'll go down immediately or wait until the next day. It was already dark outside so it's not like they're going to be able to really see anything down there.

[Brian]

dreamfall,

I think it's pretty obvious that Locke will be the one to go down the hatch.

Yeah, I agree with you. After all the pain it's caused him, he'll be the first. Also, since no one else really believes in the island the way he does, no one else is going to volunteer, perhaps Sayid (purely because of his military background/training), but I don't see that happening either.

I think they'll venture down ASAP. As far as THEY know, the "others" are still coming. The Locke/Jack/Hurley/Kate group still don't know at this point that about the Danielle/Turniphead incident and none of the islanders know about what happened to the raft.

As far as the hatch group is concerned, time is still of the essence. I think this is, at least partially, a good thing at this point. Why? Well, I'm still not totally convinced that the boat people are "the others" at least not completely. Yeah, I've read all the interviews etc where the cast members say that the boat people are the "others" but this brings up an interesting way in which LOST is produced. The cast only gets their scripts a short time before filming and no one cast member is told anything more than they'll need to know to complete that sequence of filming. As far as the cast is concerned, the boat people are the others, HOWEVER, what about the writers? They still have the overall picture in their head and they're certainly not going to give anything away to the cast given their, uhm, proclivity to talking (eg - to the media).

Just my .02 but it is a very good question.

[chaos28]

I saw something really creepy the other day. All around the area I live is ravine, wild bush, with a few paths here and there. I was wondering through, and came to a hill, and smack in the middle of the hill was a hatch. I'm not kidding. It looked exactly like the one from Lost, except the top (it wasn't a "hatch" but more of a "manhole" cover). Still freaked me out for a moment.

[Chance Gardener]

Probably the entrance to the Mole Men.

[hg]

They saw a big sign that said "JJ got the gold and you got this this shaft".

[vetteboy]

Ok Posting a theory and would like some feedback. The cable the runs from the ocean when followed to the end goes underground. The ladder only goes for a short distance in the hatch. If you are in the hatch how do you get to the ladder. Remember that old brain teaser when you were a kid about getting out of a hole. You filled it up with water and floated to the top. Maybe the cable opens another hatch under water and floods the tunnel and you float up to the ladder. Somehow I feel the cable and hatch are connected.

[Been Jammin65]

that's a stretch (cable and hatch theory).

The people on the boat are definitely the others.

Maybe there is a secret deep below the hatch that they don't want the plane crash survivors to find. Maybe the entrance to that secret place is very small. Maybe only Walt could fit through. Maybe they wanted Walt because he is the only one who can thwart their dastardly plans.

[Scribble]

I'm new here, and most likely all of my theories have been expounded on by others elsewhere in more details, but my thought is that there is definitely something underground. When Locke was getting pulled underground (by the monster? Or by something else? After all, we never saw what had him), he wanted to go. He thought it would take him to the island, or the heart of the island. The hatch goes deep underground. My guess is that's where the Others live. Perhaps the top part is just a way to hide the true island, hence the need for a "security system".

[yung23]

ticachica.
tahts cool.

i raed it smowehree bferoe.

trippy.


and..
I don't know why the length would come as a shock at all.
they read these boards, coyotee had posted the picts of civil defence logos and bunkers long before the finale....

once again, thnxs coyotee

http://img188.echo.cx/img188/2575/bunker5si.th.jpg (http://img188.echo.cx/my.php?image=bunker5si.jpg)


I'm thinking the hatch is a cat 25...

[Brian]

Jammin,

that's a stretch (cable and hatch theory).

Isn't that why we're all here? :) I mean, everything we're talking about is a stretch but I appreciate your motivation behind your post.

As far as the cable goes, well, I've speculated before that it isn't a power cable at all but, perhaps, a tether. Some have said the "others" are based somewhere else and perhaps the cable is a tether or "lifeline" to the island. Yeah, it's a stretch. :)

[Brian]

Chance,

...mole men....

Hehe, mole men, hehe!:lol

[mrjamescali]

What the hell do you think they saw?...they didnt see anything, it was completely dark.

[Leafy]

They saw that it went down, down, down .... I am sure that's all they saw .... that would be enough for me to run fast in the other direction.

Cable? Hatch? Flooded with water? Shades of Oak Island (the one in Nova Scotia).:\

[Brian]

Leafy,

I agree that your most likely initial reaction would be to run, BUT, you have to put the scene into context. As far as Jack, Locke, Kate, and Hurley know at this point, the "others" are still coming. That might override their natural instinction to flee. I don't think they're going anywhere, and at this point, it's simply a debate about who's going down the hatch first. Most likely Locke.

[Leafy]

True, Leuthen, but how do they know something even worse isn't down there .... ? Dealing with a set of unknowns, both of which could be lethal ... I think I'd rather be on the surface. If the "others" are the ones who go around blowing holes in the earth, neither option is very attractive.

I think you are right about Locke. I doubt if Hurley would be able to fit in the hatch. You can bet that Kate will volunteer, though. She's the smallest too, so maybe if they could come up with rope they could lower her down. I wouldn't trust the rope in the tunnel there, it is probably rotten with age and humidity.

[Brian]

Leafy,

I agree with your questioning. Meaning, who knows what the heck is down there? I could possibly be far worse than our "hatch" party (Jack/Locke/Kate/Hurley) at this time is afraid of. I honestly don't know.

You do make a very good point though. Give the choice between uncertainties (the hatch vs. the "others") I'd much rather stay in the environment that I know the most about, meaning, above ground. If I were part of the "hatch" party, I'd be thinking, "Damn, that doesn't look too good! I think I'm staying where I'm familiar with the surroundings."

Yeah, Kate would volunteer, but then again, she always does. IMHO, she's trying too hard. It's almost like she's trying to make up for something. Given her backstory, I'll leave you to speculate what that is.

As for a method of entering the hatch, I think it's pretty simple. Now hang with me here because I'm going to deviate for a minute from everything I've said in this thread......I'm going to say that the "others" aren't a threat, for the time being.

Now, it's simple. Go back to the Black Rock, get more dynamite, and blow down a tree. Move that tree into place and drop it down the hatch and crawl down. Hell, if Locke can make a trebuchet, he can get a tree down a hole! Just a thought. Granted, they don't have time for this if you take my thoughts earlier into context, it's just more of a thought than a theory on action at this point in the show.

Anyone else have ideas for getting down the hatch? And, NO, a rope is too obvious. Use your imagination people! :)

[yung23]

what about making a ladder ?
he made a crib.. it looked like a ladder could be made the same way..
but a rope will do. jack will lower locke down ?
how else could they get down ?

[Brian]

yung,

Well they could just be stupid and jump! :)

Seriously though, you bring up a good point. Granted, a ladder is a far cry from a crib (or a trebuchet for that matter) but Locke obviously has the skill necessary to find a solution. However, I think there's going to be a problem with the destiny twins. (Thanks spooky!) Meaning, Locke is going to want to go with plan A (which, BTW, is usually the best way) and Jack is going to want to go in a completely different direction, plan B, (which, BTW, is completely useless at this point.) Why?

Because up until this point in LOST, Jack has had very realistic alternative solutions to Locke's approach. Well guess what? Jack had his 15 minutes, if you will. It's time for the leader to take over from the boss. Those of you who know what I'm talking about will appreciate this. Locke is a leader, Jack is a boss. The definitions of those two titles define our destiny twins. I REALLY apologize to those of you who don't realize what I'm talking about and can't research it. You'd find things really amazing! (Here's to keeping our fingers crossed!)

"jack will lower locke down ?" I'm sure Jack would be quite happy to just drop Locke down the hatch at this point. Oh, and vice versa. :)

"how else could they get down ?" Well, that's really the question at this point isn't it? I posted a possible solution to this earlier regarding dynamite and a tree. It's a stretch, but it's a possibility.

I believe that the question, "How are they going to get down the hatch?" is going to become a force once Season 2 begins. After all, it is the most obvious question. As for me, well, I have my theories but I honestly don't know what's going to happen. I guess we'll all find out together.

[Hurley4Prez]

Leuthen, I love the contrast in your statement "Locke's a leader, Jack's a boss."

I feel the same way.

Whatever happens, I'm positive that Locke will find some way to get down that hatch, even if it kills him to try.

[Brian]

Hurley4Prez,

I have to admit that I wasn't the one to come up with that analogy. I definitely alluded to it in my comments, but I never said it outright. I also didn't come up with "destiny twins", but you'll hear me use that a lot from this point on. You'll have to thank spooky for that phrase.

That said, in the context that I first heard it, I found it to define their relationship this way. Locke - Leader = A leader leads and doesn't need to reiterate it. Those around leaders follow because they know it's the right thing to do (I speak from experience being prior military). Jack - Boss = A boss tells everyone what they need to do whether it's right or wrong and most follow a boss because they're afraid to do anything different.

I hope this helps to define the destiny twins' "leader/boss" relationship. Oh, and I absolutely agree that Locke is going to be the one who finds a way down the hatch. He's given almost half a season to opening it, he'll surely be the first down. What awaits him on the other end? :) I have no idea at all. Really. I guess we'll all find out together.

[boonian androphile]

what about Locke as the idea man and Jack as the executive as in the doer in real terms? Nothing moves forward on the hatch until Locke enlists Jack in the process. For me, it's as though Locke is really ineffectual without Jack's energy and commitment in the hatch project, if you will. Locke is more interesting because he presents as insightful and mysterious. Locke keeps secrets, as does Jack. But Jack when confronted communicates more seemingly rational motivations for his actions whereas Locke relies on "The island will show us the way" and other mystical pronouncements. As for descent, both men will go. For one thing, neither trusts the other or wants to be shown up by the other. But also, spooky's term of destiny twins has definite application in the exploration of the hatch. Their dyadic status is solidifying. They are psychologically drawn to each other.

[Brian]

boonian androphile,

First of all, IMO, Locke doesn't need to in any way/shape/form "enlist" Jack. The hatch is all about Locke and Jack has only just recently found himself, in his mind, important.

..Locke as the idea man...

Leader

...Jack as the executive....

Boss

There's a differentiation there. There is absolutely a difference between a leader and a boss. You know this, I know this, the castaways surely know this. Leaders lead, bosses boss. I can't put it any more simply than that.

For me, it's as though Locke is really ineffectual without Jack's energy and commitment in the hatch project...

Really? The "hatch" is Locke's commitment. Jack just recently learned of its existence. How is Locke "ineffectual" without Jack's energy? Locke's been a part of the hatch for almost, if not well over, half of Season 1. Jack just learned of the "hatch" in Exodus. Quite the conundrum to say the least.

Yes, I'll agree with you that they both keep secrets. That's their both individual nature. Neither of them really trust anyone at this point.

Hmm..."faith versus science" comes up yet again. :eek Anyone see a pattern here?

...neither trusts the other...

No, you're wrong here. They do trust each other. The problem is, they don't believe in each other. They're the destiny twins and the definition of that term exemplifies that!

They are psychologically drawn to each other.

Well, that's more than obvious at this point. Black vs white, good vs evil, etc, and blah, blah, blah! :)

You had me at Destiny Twins!

[lostndelirious]

You can tell you put a lot of thought into your posts, Leuthen - and you too, Boonian! Always enjoyable to read...

For my 2 cents worth - Locke is a little too spooky to become more than a spiritual leader. I believe that the survivors fear him a little and therefore wouldn't follow him as they would Jack. I think that Jack has a forthright, honest quality about him that people trust. And while I think people admire Locke's talents, I don't know if they actually trust him. I can see a situation developing where Locke expects people to follow him and his decisions and then he is crushed when they don't. Or don't believe in him. I'm sure he'll feel a bit of betrayal by Jack in the coming season. More tragedy for poor Locke I'm afraid. |I ... Poor Guy, ya just want to give him a hug... if it wasn't for that creepy vibe thing coming off of him... (just kidding - he really is one of my favourite characters. I was in tears for both Walkabout and the kidney/bad daddy epi's.).

That said, I sense potentially great things coming with the addition of the Ana Lucia character. I posted in another thread (can't remember which one at this point) that I predict that the split into two camps will happen between her and Jack, with Kate having Jack's back and Locke having Ana Lucia's (or Ana Lucia having Locke's). I can totally see Locke in a 'Puppet Master'/Merlin/Adviser/Rasputin/16th Century religious leader type position. Or perhaps he is just needs someone to back him up before others trust him enough to follow him.

Someone earlier did a post where they predicted who would go with Jack and who would go with Locke out of the known survivors, and the numbers came out in Jack's favour. If there are to be new cast members coming, I'm assuming they would stick with their known leader (I'm pretty sure that in one of the spoiler threads I read, TPTB were hinting that this was to be Ana Lucia in a Che type leader role).

Oh and as for who's first down the hatch? I can totally see Locke jumping in before anyone can stop him. The man's obsessed!

Either that, or pushing Jack in as the next island sacrifice :lol just kiddin'

[boonian androphile]

Leuthen:

You are a Locke fan. That's for sure. I like him too. He is a fascinating character. But he can never exist without others. Nor can Jack. Nor can anyone. I agree that the hatch is all about Locke. That is why Jack was brought into the picture. Sayid was the messenger. Locke was the purpose and the drive. Why say to Jack "You have a destiny" if Locke doesnt need Jack? Is Locke just being helpful? Doubt it. It is a call to a higher purpose which sounds swell but will enter that means and ends equation that Jack wont stomach because his values are ostensibly utilitarian. Jack has ideals as such but they are wrapped up in those pesky details that Locke just wills away.

Trust or believe. These terms seem intertwined. They will believe in each other if they mesh more in purpose and psychology. Trust is now tenuous and based on results and how much one will disclose to the other. Will Jack present himself as too much of a threat? Will Locke present himself as too much of a man on a mission? Neither will accept fully the other's philosophical counterpoints. Unless enemies overwhelm the whole community. They they will give in to practicality.

Well, the obvious has a purpose: a base for discussion. If they werent drawn to each other we would have nothing to talk about. I am just saying that the process was gradual and based on events that they perceived differently but nonetheless link them in the realization of future events. I dont automatically buy the concept that they are mirrored opposites of each other. They are actually alike in a myriad of ways. Locke steps farther in his direction though which may correspond to leader using your terms but some leaders are not very desirable once their policies are put into practice.

I dont think that Locke is evil as much as he is tragic. For that reason, he is the most important character of the show.

[juanbong]

Tragic is the main part of Locke, and that is why I dig him.

[Brian]

lostndelirious,

Thank you for your comments. I, personally, am constantly amazed at the in depth thought put into many peoples posts here on LOST-TV. That's why I come here every day, I love reading other peoples ideas/thoughts. It's nice to know someone appreciates mine as well!

There are so many things in your first paragraph that I want to quote that this would be unreadable if I did so so I'll just do this...

More tragedy for poor Locke I'm afraid,

Tell me about it. I agree with you completely that Jack has the qualities that inherently cause others to follow him. That in mind, I also believe Locke has these qualities. I honestly believe that one of the reasons so many are willing to follow Jack is because he's a doctor. Who do we all turn to when we are ill or have a physical malady? A doctor. There's an inherent trustworthiness built into his profession and I think that's a good thing.

Now, I for one would never turn toward a (formerly?) paralyzed (we still don't have the backstory on the wheelchair), perceived psycho like Locke for aid and comfort. However, once the initial shock of what happened wore off and my survival instincts kicked in, I'd be all over Locke like white on rice! I'd be his shadow. Yeh, bad things tend to happen to Locke's shadow on the island, but I'd take my chances. After all, he's only allegedly killed one person! :) For the record, I don't buy that "murder" theory for one second! Everything Boone did, he did of his own free will. He could have just as easily told Locke to piss off at the Beechcraft site, but he didn't. His fault, IMHO.

See the difference here? It is through his reputation, title, and appearance that Jack is being labeled the leader. It is through actions and forthrightness that Locke is being labeled the "weird one" if you will, as well as a leader. I also agree that the addition of Ana next season is going to cause some ripples to say the least among the castaways. Kate's going to have competition and we all know how Kate deals with competition! :lol

Either that, or pushing Jack in as the next island sacrifice.

Hey, I've said all along that this would kill two birds with one stone! After all, Jack is holding a torch so we'd answer at least a couple of questions in that action. We'd see what's at the bottom of the hatch as well as how deep it is! :lol

[Brian]

boonian,

You are a Locke fan. That's for sure.

Am I that transparent? :) Oh, you're absolutely correct in your analysis that they all need each other. You'll get no argument on that from me at all. Still, I honestly believe the castaways are going to divide next season along the Jack/Locke line. I see it coming already. When I originally mentioned this, I thought that Charlie would go with Locke due to his getting Charlie clean. Now, with the birth of Aaron, I'm not so sure. Claire, and to more extent, Aaron, have become powerful motivational forces for Charlie. I think his allegiance will lie with Claire over Jack or Locke. Then again, there was that bonding scene with Locke getting Claire to help him build the crib so it's up in the air at this point IMO (more on that in a minute).

I think the biggest thing keeping Locke and Jack at odds at this point is the fact they're men! Trust me on this. I am one and I'm speaking from experience! OK, stop laughing, let me explain, as if it needed explanation. They're too damn hard-headed to realize that they need each other for the greater good. They have ego's, always a bad thing in these situations. Plus, there's distrust thrown in. Locke not telling Jack the whole truth about Boone and Jack not telling Locke about the guns. They're men, they're hard-headed, and neither seems to want to be the first to bend, if you will. I still think they're going to continue to butt heads next season, no doubt about it.

The one quality I see emerging in Locke to counteract Jack's inherent leadership qualities is this........he's becoming more of a father figure. How? Glad you asked. He helped Charlie get clean. That whole "I'm only going to let you ask for this back three times, and then I'm going to give it to you." is the most brilliant process I've ever seen in my life! Also, he played the missing father figure with Claire. He built the crib for her, and she helped, which in itself (the crib) isn't that important. It was the interaction between them that is. Finally, Boone. He helped Boone rise above that "I'm the most important" mindset that he had. The finality of that was Boone sacrificing himself for the greater good (read - the castaways). He could have, and probably should have, left the plane when Locke told him to, but he didn't. That act alone caused me to state outright elsewhere that Boone was a hero. Putting others before yourself is the ultimate act of selflessness.

That one quality (father-figure) overrides everything I said earlier (my response to lostndelirious) about why people gravitate toward Jack. I know I, for one, would trust/turn to my father before a doctor. My dad trumps everyone else, period, when it comes to trust.

I dont think that Locke is evil as much as he is tragic.

Isn't that the truth?! And I agree, and for that reason alone, not only is he the most important castaway (IMHO), but I honestly think he's going to be the key to "unlocking" the castaways predicament. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. I don't know, but I do know what I believe! :)

We'll all find out together.

ETA - I'm really missing my Terry O'Quinn/John Locke board at this point! :)

[Brian]

I knew I'd find this thread if I looked hard enough! Shameless bump! :)

[Leafy]

Shameless indeed, Leuthen ;) , but OK, because I thought of something else ...

If they were to go in the hatch, the monster, or whatever, might seal them in there. They might find remains of others that happened to - could be like a a roach motel for people - they go in ... but they don't come out. Without a ladder to go up, they'd be stuck. It is a lot easier to go down a rope than to go up it.:\

[Sarahs Monkey]

Still, I honestly believe the castaways are going to divide next season along the Jack/Locke line. I see it coming already.

Gee, what gave it away, the fact that the producers said they would divide or the fact that the division was heavily foreshadowed in the episodes closer to the end of season one?

[LoStMyMiNd]

You are all wrong. Have you forgotten that Hurley saw the numbers and they are bad. I don't think anyone will go down that hole until after Hurley has had a chance to tell them his story about the numbers. Jack and Locke are going to ask him why he tried to put the explosive out. In the meantime, they are going to hear the explosion on the water and will be distracted, because they know the rafters are out there. Each one will go out to the beach to see what is going on

And as far as something "unbelievable" being in the hatch....haven't we all fallen for that before? It may be unbelievable but its not going to be too terribly shocking

[Hodgepodge]

What I found unusual was the amount of dynamite Jack and Locke used. And if you remember, they still had to physically push the hatch to the side. This thing was definitely built to withstand a nuclear explosion.

[Brian]

Hodge,

That's a good point. Then again, I thought of something. Someone can clarify if they have it Tivo'd or recorded. Didn't Locke mention something about only needing to blow the hinges? I mean there's already a weak point there.

I was rather surprised at the lack of apparent damage other than the crumpled door. Hmm, anyone else notice if the glass was broken? Then again, we didn't really get a good view of the hatch as a whole after the explosion, just the top, and even then that was as the group was climbing on top of it.

As for my view of the lack of a complete ladder, I think there are two things that could have possibly happened to it. First, it could be falling apart from old age. In that tropical environment, metal would decay at a rapid rate, just ask anyone who lives on the coast. Salt water is vicious on metal. Sidenote - that makes you wonder what the hatch itself is made of. It looks relatively unscathed, well, until the destiny twins blew the door off.

Second, it also looks like a ladder you'd find in a war zone. Damaged, broken, twisted by explosions etc.

Either way, my guess is as soon as anyone puts any weight on it, it's going down the hole, so to speak. Yeah, I know, if it was that fraile, it should have fallen when the dynamite went off but who knows how resistant the hatch material (door, outer shell) is to sonic vibrations. The force of the explosion could have been deflected up rather than down. ETA - yeah, the same could be said for keeping the salty air out as well, I'll give you that.

Interesting nonetheless.

[HawaiiHeaven]

I think the only way anyone is getting down that hatch is if they are lowered down attached to a rope. They would never count on the ladder for safety and other reasons, such as needing to be pulled back up if necessary. And I can't see Jack letting Locke be the one to go down the Hatch due to his erratic behavior and seeming death wish when being dragged by the "monster", so I think it will be Jack going down the rabbit hole...

[Brian]

...so I think it will be Jack going down the rabbit hole...

Locke's apparent irrational behaviour aside, do you think Locke is going to allow Jack to do that? The hatch is John's baby and after everything he's gone through to get it open, including losing Boone and all the aftermath that came with it, there's no way he's going to allow Jack down first, second maybe, but not first.

Then again, since no one, even Locke, really knows what's down there, perhaps Locke would revel in allowing Jack to play "guinea pig." :)

[Brian]

Sarahs Monkey,

Gee, what gave it away, the fact that the producers said they would divide or the fact that the division was heavily foreshadowed in the episodes closer to the end of season one?

I guess I should have been clearer in my original post. Sorry 'bout that.

What I was meant when I said,
Still, I honestly believe the castaways are going to divide next season along the Jack/Locke line. I see it coming already.

is my belief of how the camp is going to divide. Yes, we've all heard the camp is going to divide, but then again, we've heard a lot that never came to fruition. In retrospect, I suppose it is pretty obvious, the leaders of the supposed new factions that is.

Foreshadowing is a yin/yang type of concept. Yes, it's good, but it's also bad. It's bitten several viewers already this season. How? Did you read any of the discussions about Exodus? Almost everyone was po'd at the way Exodus unfolded. That's not necessarily all TPTB's fault. They foreshadowed, and we went with it. We came up with these theories etcetera and when they didn't turn out the way we thought they would, a lot of viewers were upset, me included (although admittedly too much less an extent than some). That said, I have only myself to blame for this. Nothing about Exodus was ever directly stated. TPTB, I've found, love to talk in code. They say one thing and do another. Yeah, it's obvious now but it was so obvious at the time.

During Season 1, some (of us) made mistakes and there's nothing wrong with making mistakes as long as you learn from them. As for me, I'm reverting to rule #1 - I try everyday to not make the same mistake twice. So my attitude for Season 2 will be - Hope for the best but expect the worst.

Theories and speculation and pondering are good, but don't allow yourself to begin to actually believe them. If you do, you're setting yourself up for disappointment just as sure as the sun's going to come up tomorrow.

I hope this little diatribe helps explain not only what I meant, but why I said it in the first place. I believe the castaways are going to split along the Jack/John line, but I'm definitely not going to be surprised if it doesn't.

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen says:...Didn't Locke mention something about only needing to blow the hinges? I mean there's already a weak point there...

...As for my view of the lack of a complete ladder, I think there are two things that could have possibly happened to it. First, it could be falling apart from old age. In that tropical environment, metal would decay at a rapid rate, just ask anyone who lives on the coast. Salt water is vicious on metal. Sidenote - that makes you wonder what the hatch itself is made of. It looks relatively unscathed, well, until the destiny twins blew the door off...I can't remember either, but your recollection sounds familiar.

I'm bending toward the former here. The broken rungs seem from decay. I got the impression this entrance/exit hadn't been used since the thing was built.

Also, this thing looks like it was built with foot-wide concrete walls, as I mentioned in my first post, to withstand a nuclear blast.


HawaiiHeaven says:...And I can't see Jack letting Locke be the one to go down the Hatch due to his erratic behavior and seeming death wish when being dragged by the "monster", so I think it will be Jack going down the rabbit hole... And oh, you're so right. The fights on! No way is Jack going to let Locke down that hole alone. And Locke feels this is his "baby", he's not letting Jack down first. So now we know what's going to happen. In steps my Kate to save the day. Or, maybe they'll let Sayid handle the reconnoiter.

[Warthawg1]

Seems to me to be a great job for Vincent

[Leafy]

If I remember correctly, it looked like only the last couple of rungs, or maybe just the last one, was broken, as if it had snapped when someone was going down it. Maybe somebody fell, and another of whatever group it was, went down on the rope to check. Now, the question is, how far down does the rope go, and what is it attached to at the top?

[Brian]

Hodge,

Or, maybe they'll let Sayid handle the reconnoiter.


I don't have a problem with that at all, actually.

The only reason I left him out of the discussion is......does he know about the hatch or not? I can't honestly remember. I want to say he doesn't but with all the discussions between him and Locke, I can't remember.

Anyway, the reason I left him out of the discussion was because he wasn't part of the party to engage the hatch at season's end. Again, I go back to the time frame. When the season ended, the hatch team still doesn't know about anything else on the beach or with the raft. Now, fast-forward into season 2 and the beach team and hatch team have gotten together, and returned to the hatch as one group, then yes, absolutely I think Sayid should go.

I can see the scene now......everyone standing around the hatch, a rope dangling over the open hole, Jack and Locke arguing, everyone taking sides, and Sayid just finally saying WTF! and grabs the rope and descends ala Ya'll sit here and argue about it, I'm going!

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen, you're right! Sayid and Charlie were off chasing Danielle to recover Aaron. He has no idea the hatch's been blown.

Got a question for you! Do you think there's still a need to get the survivors into the hatch? I know that's not going to keep someone from going in, but do you think the recovery of Aaron eliminates the need to hide everybody?

[Brian]

Hodge,

Got a question for you! Do you think there's still a need to get the survivors into the hatch? I know that's not going to keep someone from going in, but do you think the recovery of Aaron eliminates the need to hide everybody?

That's a tricky question. I'll handle the most obvious first.
I know that's not going to keep someone from going in,

Oh definitely. Hell, if the hatch itself couldn't keep them out, then nothing will. :)
Do you think there's still a need to get the survivors into the hatch?

It's a matter of perspective. If you want my opinion, then no. If you put me in the place of any one of the hatch team then yes. It's objective, really. Ok, timeline sequencing aside, then at this point, no, there's no reason to get everyone into the hatch. The alleged others already have what they supposedly want so the perceived threat is over, for the time being.

Actually, I'm torn on that. I still don't think the boat people are the others, so the perceived threat may still be out there. Call it a gut feeling if you want but something there just doesn't seem right. A woman's intutition would be helpful right about now! :) I don't know, maybe it's just me!
but do you think the recovery of Aaron eliminates the need to hide everybody?

So there it is, isn't it? That's what I've been avoiding. :) Honestly, I don't know. This quite possibly, IMO, ties into Walt and the scenario I mentioned earlier, but for the life of me I can't figure out how?

Bascially I'll say this, this is what I think which means it most likely isn't worth much! :) Anyway, I think there is still a threat present to the castaways. The problem is, I can't put my finger on what that threat is or how it affects them as a group.

Given that, I don't think there's necessarily a reason to throw all of the castaways into a black hole but the destiny twins (aka - The Boss and The Leader) definitely need to put their male dominance issues & BS aside and figure out a defense for the castaways. Locke, Jack, and Sayid need to work together, not against each other. Cooperation is a wonderful thing!:)

[acovell]

but do you think the recovery of Aaron eliminates the need to hide everybody?

At this point, no one but the people who were on the raft know that Walt's been taken. So until they find that out, they have to assume -- for safety's sake -- that whoever lit that fire may still be a threat, and that Aaron may still be a target. Charlie may think that Danielle started the fire, but I'm pretty sure Sayid doesn't, and in decisions as important as that, they'll probably listen to Sayid.

The problem is that now that the hatch is blown open, there's no easy way to get anyone down there safely. Even worse, it looks to me like that ladder, rather than being rusted out or "broken," was ripped off from below, so I don't see them sending anyone down there for protection.

As to who goes down the rabbit hole first. . . . I can't see Jack letting Locke do it, and I can't see Locke letting Jack do it, so I'm opting for Kate. While Jack and Locke are arguing about it, she'll do it herself. I think it's very important to her to make some kind of contribution, and since Jack denied her that opportunity with the dynamite, she'll take it upon herself to go down the hatch.

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen says:...The alleged others already have what they supposedly want so the perceived threat is over, for the time being.So, can I assume you believe the events of Danielle's story? "Seven days after giving birth, I saw the black smoke. Then they came and took Alex."


Leuthen also says:...I still don't think the boat people are the others, so the perceived threat may still be out there. Call it a gut feeling if you want but something there just doesn't seem right...Do you remember the Locke thread where we talked about the different groups? I said, 'the "Others" may turn out to be harmless, and one of the other groups may be evil?' Well, I agree with your thoughts here. The "boat people" may not be the "Others".


Leuthen says:...Anyway, I think there is still a threat present to the castaways...I do too! I still think Claire's baby, Aaron is in danger. And, like you, I don't know why, how, or by whom. I guess that's why we've got the next season coming in September. ;)

[Brian]

Hodge,

So, can I assume you believe the events of Danielle's story?

Well anyone who's read my posts long enough knows what I think about her. She's a moonbat to the nth degree. She's spent entirely too much time out of human contact. But it doesn't make her a bad person, just a little out of touch.

That said, and in all seriousness, I didn't base that on Danielle. I guess maybe subconciouslly I was thinking of that.

I guess what I was really thinking relates to my belief that the boat people aren't necessarily the others. It's because of that, that I think they are all still in danger to some extent.

Let me get a little wild haired on ya for a second and you'll see what I mean. Here we go.........

I'm gonna get a little Ethan-ish on ya here for a second, at least in how some of his defenders think. I think the boat people are very well aware of the others plans, and are trying to intervene on behalf of the castaways, to protect them if you will. I think they decided to get to Walt first, at any cost (hence Sawyer getting shot, Michael getting thrown overboard, and the raft getting destroyed.) I think they believe the trio will get back to the island in their own due time. How? Currents. Remember what Arzt said about the winds and currents getting ready to change and when Michael asked him how soon they needed to leave? Arzt's answer - yesterday. I take that to mean to winds could change at any moment and this moment looks pretty good to me. I think the three of them will cling together to stay afloat, possibly using debris from the raft, and fate will once again deposit them on the island. At that point, the safety of Aaron, and finding Walt will become priority #1.

[HawaiiHeaven]

Sorry, Leuthen, but I cannot go along with your theory at all by any stretch, because the Boat people could not be construed as acting protectively by throwing a Molotov Cocktail on the Raft, shooting at Sawyer, and ripping a kid away from his father. No, the Boat People are acting in their own self-interests whatever they are, to take Walt, and acted with extreme cruelty and disregard for life since Michael, Jin and Sawyer are at risk of drowning or could have been shot.

Also, any people other than the Lostaways I would consider "others", so the Boat People are of course "others", though we do not know how many groups of "others" there are. Danielle seems to be a remnant of another group that was wrecked onto the Island, similar to our Lostaways, who were manipulated (or destined) to be on their boat the same way the Lostaways were manipulated (or destined) to be on the Plane, who were taken and used in some way by the Others. I believe that only some are wanted by the Others and some are merely a threat and the Others want them killed.

I also subscribe to the theory that there are a Network of "others" on the Mainland who assisted and manipulated the Lostaways to the Island, and these may show up on the Island (I think the Marshall is one and the Fortune Teller is another).

I believe that they will be unable to come up with a long enough rope to bring them all the way down the Hatch which will probably be a labrynth, and they will be desperate to close it up next season for fear of what could come out of it...
Or, whoever will go down, I agree with Sayid as the likely candidate, will spend a long time exploring what I think are passageways, and perhaps ending up on the other side of the Island as well as to the launching area of the Boat people.

[Brian]

HH,

because the Boat people could not be construed as acting protectively by throwing a Molotov Cocktail on the Raft, shooting at Sawyer, and ripping a kid away from his father. No, the Boat People are acting in their own self-interests whatever they are, to take Walt, and acted with extreme cruelty and disregard for life since Michael, Jin and Sawyer are at risk of drowning or could have been shot.

Did I not say I think they decided to get to Walt first, at any cost (hence Sawyer getting shot, Michael getting thrown overboard, and the raft getting destroyed.)?

Wouldn't your statement exemplify that?

Also, any people other than the Lostaways I would consider "others", so the Boat People are of course "others"

I'll give you that. However, in the context of the show and how we discuss them here, I don't think they're the "others." The "others" that Danielle alludes to all the time, that is.

Danielle seems to be a remnant of another group that was wrecked onto the Island...

This is well established. Dani's already stated, multiple times, that she and her team were wrecked on the island. I have the entire Season 1 transcripts on my HD but I can't find, for now, where she states this, even though she's stated it several times. We all agree that Dani has been on the island for 16 years and she's the only survivor of an exploration party that landed on the island.

I believe that only some are wanted by the Others and some are merely a threat and the Others want them killed.

I'll give you that as well, at least as far as there are only some that the "others" want. As for the killing thing, well, we only have the moonbat's word that the "others" ever killed anyone. Our castaways are smart enough to think for themselves and, at this point, haven't had 16 years in isolation to conceive conspiracy theories.

I also subscribe to the theory that there are a Network of "others" on the Mainland who assisted and manipulated the Lostaways to the Island, and these may show up on the Island (I think the Marshall is one and the Fortune Teller is another).

I've always agreed with the "network" concept since I first heard it. You'll get no argument from me on that one. :) That said, I don't think the marshall was part of it. The "fortune teller"? I'd vote him for most obvious. If anyone pushed Claire toward that flight, it was him. Not only that, but he spent all his time talking about the baby. Why not the marshall? Because he just came across as just too narrow-minded. Simple as that. He's fixated on Kate, maybe he has a crush and who among us? :)

I believe that they will be unable to come up with a long enough rope to bring them all the way down the Hatch

Did you miss the trebuchet? If Locke can make a trebuchet, he can damn well get anyone down that hatch! I promise you that! :)

which will probably be a labrynth

Again, you won't get an argument from me on that one either. I'd be rather upset if it wasn't!

and they will be desperate to close it up next season for fear of what could come out of it...

By the very definition that we all agree they're going to explore it, how is it they would close it up for fear of what could come out of it? I would like to think that you mean, if possibly they find something that concerns them after they've explored it, then maybe they'd close it up then. At this point, there's no way in Hell Locke's going to allow anything regarding the hatch to be closed! No way!

Or, whoever will go down, I agree with Sayid as the likely candidate, will spend a long time exploring what I think are passageways, and perhaps ending up on the other side of the Island as well as to the launching area of the Boat people.

Now that's the most poignant thing I've seen you say yet! :) Seriously. I absolutely agree with that with no comments necessary! Well done!

I can only hope that that is what happens. Who knows where the "hatch" is going to lead? I have no idea and neither do any of us. But I'd like to thing that what you stated is what's going to happen!

Thanks!

[damarv20]

***Somewhat spoilerish***

Let's not forget that at the end of Deus Ex Machina Locke sees a bright light coming from inside the hatch. Even with Walt and Hurley's warnings to not open the hatch, he does it anyway.

He could have at least listened to why Hurley was screaming at him to not light the fuse, but instead he went on as if he HAD TO get the hatch open like he was on a mission or being controlled. In another topic i found this quote: "What's inside the mysterious hatch will be interesting, but not as interesting as the effect it has on the John Locke character", according to Grillo-Marxuach.

So, IMO Locke is being controlled by whatever is in the hatch or was given false information by it to make him act this way. I am a Locke fan, he's my favorite character, but something is not right if he thinks the island/hatch/monster are all good things. The only reasonable explanation is that he is being controlled by someone/something. Whatever is inside can't be a good thing, come on.....this is LOST

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen says:...I'm gonna get a little Ethan-ish on ya here for a second, at least in how some of his defenders think. I think the boat people are very well aware of the others plans, and are trying to intervene on behalf of the castaways, to protect them if you will. I think they decided to get to Walt first, at any cost (hence Sawyer getting shot, Michael getting thrown overboard, and the raft getting destroyed.) I think they believe the trio will get back to the island in their own due time. How? Currents. Remember what Arzt said about the winds and currents getting ready to change and when Michael asked him how soon they needed to leave? Arzt's answer - yesterday. I take that to mean to winds could change at any moment and this moment looks pretty good to me. I think the three of them will cling together to stay afloat, possibly using debris from the raft, and fate will once again deposit them on the island. At that point, the safety of Aaron, and finding Walt will become priority #1.First off, like you, I've always referred to the "Others" using Danielle's definition. Sayid asks, "have you seen other people on the island?" Danielle's reply, "no, but I hear them. Out there, in the jungle. They whisper. You think I'm insane." So, when I refer to the "Others", I'm talking about the whisper voices. And also like you, Dani's elevator doesn't go all the way to the top!

Now regarding the quote above! I'm definitely with HawaiiHeaven on this one. And, I notice you didn't say you adhere to this theory! :\

I remember when All the Best Cowboys Have Daddy Issues first aired, there were Lostaways that expounded this theory. I made a joke, like Ethan was the islands tour guide. It was maybe before your time. But there's an easier way to tell the survivors they're in danger, without kidnapping pregnant women and ten year-old kids. Without firing a gun at unsuspected people out for a Sunday sail. And lets not mentioned, showing the rafters your fourth-of-July fireworks display.


HawaiiHeaven says:...I also subscribe to the theory that there are a Network of "others" on the Mainland who assisted and manipulated the Lostaways to the Island, and these may show up on the Island (I think the Marshall is one and the Fortune Teller is another)...I agree with this idea. But like Leuthen, I don't think the Marshal was part of the conspiracy. Do you want to know who was? Yeah, good ole Arzt! This will be the fourth time I've mentioned it since the finale, Arzt is not DEAD.

And believe me! If Locke has to start dropping survivors down that hatch. Have them stand on each others shoulders. He's going down that hatch. Sayid maybe first, but Locke won't be far behind.

[athywithak]

Jack and Locke do not trust each other. Note Jack's comments on "the Locke problem" and think of how Locke's statement that Boone was a sacrifice will be heard by Jack, who previously labeled him a murderer for giving Jack the wrong info on Boone's injuries.

Here's a scenario for who goes down the hatch: Locke, of course. And then, as someone said, Kate always volunteers. And Jack is protective of Kate and distrustful of Locke, so he will then go too.

Talk about making the same mistakes!
All the leaders (except Sayid) went away to fetch dynamite, and left folks defenseless on the beach, resulting in the baby snatching. Once again, Jack makes a not-so-good decision because he needs to act on and control events (no one ever wants to talk about Jack's adult-child-of-alcoholic syndrome). Locke manipulated the news from DR to meet his goal of opening the hatch, and Jack fell for it.

Also, Leuthen, great point about boss vs. leader personalities. However, let's give Jack a little break. It isn't just because he's got a certain status as a doc that people followed him. It is because he took action in the chaos of the hours following the crash. And let's not forget that Locke has tried to guide Jack toward a leader role too. I think there's a scene coming up in White Rabbit or Cowboys, right?

great thread! GO GO GO!!!

K
edited to correct my own spelling, lol

[Hodgepodge]

athywithak says:...Note Jack's comments on "the Locke problem" and think of how Locke's statement that Boone was a sacrifice will be heard by Jack, who previous labeled him a murderer for giving Jack the wrong info on Boone's injuries.I know I immediately thought of the CBS series Survivors, when Jack asked Kate for her support with "the Locke problem". It seems people on that show are always conspiring against one another.

And boy, did you see that look Jack gave Locke when he mentioned Boone's sacrifice? If looks could kill!


athywithak also says:Here's a scenario for who goes down the hatch: Locke, of course. And then, as someone said, Kate always volunteers. And Jack is protective of Kate and distrustful of Locke, so he will then go too...I think we've actually come up with a great poll question. Who goes down the hatch first? I'm going to start it.

[Brian]

athywithak,

I'll completely agree with you that they don't trust each other. I also don't think they really like each other all that much either. I think they simply stand each other for the good of the group as a whole. At least they are commendable for putting others before themselves.
how Locke's statement that Boone was a sacrifice will be heard by Jack, who previous labeled him a murderer for giving Jack the wrong info on Boone's injuries.

I still think there's more to the sacrifice that we haven't heard yet. I really don't think we've heard the last of it, especially why Locke considers it a sacrifice. Yeah, I know he said the island demanded (I forget the exact wording.) it but I don't think that's the whole story. At least it better not be, IMO! :)
All the leaders (except Sayid) went away to fetch dynamite, and left folks defenseless on the beach, resulting in the baby snatching.

Absolutely right on! Had at least one of them been there, that probably could have been avoided..........think? I think you're correct in that it was a mistake but I don't think any 1 of them could have prevented the kidnapping. DS was going to get Aaron, one way or the other, quite possibly by gunpoint if necessary. She has the upper hand, she has 16 years on the island, if that is, you believe her, and she knows the island better than anyone and she would have been able to get away/hide even if all the leaders were there. Besides, knowing Locke and Jack, someone could have possibly done something stupid and ended up getting shot. It happened in the most non-violent way it could given the circumstances, IMO. :)
Locke manipulated the news from DR to meet his goal of opening the hatch, and Jack fell for it.
I'm in the air with this one! :) Really, I don't know what to think. I want to tell you how wrong you are about the manipulation thing, but I can't come up with any good arguments against it. However, I can't really agree with you for the same reasons. I will agree with you on a broader scope though. I think Locke used Jack to get the hatch open. I'm staying away from manipulation at this point, maybe it'll come up again.
It isn't just because he's got a certain status as a doc that people followed him.
I may have spoken too quickly if that's how I phrased it. What I meant by that is that it is Jack's status as a doctor that some are initially drawn to him, not why they stay and continue to follow him. Sorry about that, I should have been more clear. :)
And let's not forget that Locke has tried to guide Jack toward a leader role too.
Yes he has. I think he did that because he realizes how much of a force Jack could be among the castaways. He has the ability to get people to follow him.

That'll be important once Locke turns Jack. :) What evidence do I have to support such a hair-brained idea? None. Call it a hunch. While the camp is set divide among the destiny twins, some time in the future, next season, two seasons from now, who knows, but some time in the future, I think Jack is going to start believing in Locke, trusting him, (and while we're fantasizing) and possibly even liking him. It's going to take a community effort to get off that island and as long as they're on opposing sides of faith, they'll never get away from that island.

[acovell]

I think Jack misunderstands Locke about Boone being a sacrifice the island demanded. I think Jack's missing the point that Boone's death was a surprise to Locke and that it hurt Locke very much. You can see it in his eyes. It was a personal loss to Locke -- he had developed a father/son relationship with Boone. The only way he can hold onto his belief that there's meaning in what they're experiencing is to tell himself that Boone's death was "meant to be." If it wasn't fated, then Boone's death has no meaning in Locke's eyes, and it MUST have meaning or there's no point to anything.

[Hodgepodge]

acovell says:I think Jack misunderstands Locke about Boone being a sacrifice the island demanded. I think Jack's missing the point that Boone's death was a surprise to Locke and that it hurt Locke very much. You can see it in his eyes. It was a personal loss to Locke -- he had developed a father/son relationship with Boone. The only way he can hold onto his belief that there's meaning in what they're experiencing is to tell himself that Boone's death was "meant to be." If it wasn't fated, then Boone's death has no meaning in Locke's eyes, and it MUST have meaning or there's no point to anything.Acovell, I want to believe this more than you know. Your beautifuil words are so convincing. Also, I'm a huge Locke fan. But I can't get over that scene in Deus Ex Machina, where he has that dream/hallucination. There is know doubt he/we saw a bloodied Boone. Did he just look past that, because he wanted inside that damn hatch? Was he going under the assumption, that a few cuts and bruises are know big thing? Boone can take it!

[acovell]

Acovell, I want to believe this more than you know. Your beautifuil words are so convincing. Also, I'm a huge Locke fan. But I can't get over that scene in Deus Ex Machina, where he has that dream/hallucination. There is know doubt he/we saw a bloodied Boone. Did he just look past that, because he wanted inside that damn hatch? Was he going under the assumption, that a few cuts and bruises are know big thing? Boone can take it!

My take on that is that he misunderstood what it meant. Wasn't that the "Teresa falls down the stairs; Teresa falls up the stairs" thing? If I'm remembering that correctly, he asked Boone who Teresa was or what that meant. He may have thought Boone was bloodied in his vision because Boone felt guilty about Teresa's death or because Teresa had been bloodied when she fell. I don't think he realized it meant that Boone was literally going to be injured until Boone was already up in the plane. If I'm not mistaken, had his legs not given out on him, Locke would have gone into the plane, and he would have been the one who fell. That's why Locke believes Boone was a sacrifice demanded by the island -- it would have been him in the plane -- not Boone -- if the island hadn't momentarily taken away his ability to walk. In other words, I think he assumed the vision was telling him something personal about Boone's past -- not that it literally meant Boone was going to fall.

[Zambini Stardust]

While we debate the Locke/Jack thing, it occurs to me that I don't know how many separate groups there are at this point. Here is my recollection from watching the finale...

1. Rafters, minus Walt who was traded for a future draft choice.
2. Hatchers, now looking down into the tube wondering if there are any munchies down there.
3. Cavers, sitting around discussing the meaning of fate.

And, compiled from the finale AND the diarist's final entry...

4. Beachers, still sitting on their duffs while Danielle steals the baby.

I added group 4 because it appeared to me that Claire and Charlie stayed behind on the beach with the baby after Sayid and the Cavers had already hiked out. Then Danielle came in, Charlie ran off to get Sayid, Danielle took the baby, and you know the rest. Plus the diarist clearly says that some of them stayed on the beach after the Cavers and the Hatchers and the Rafters all left.

So, is there really a 4th group on the beach, and if so, why? And if so, why did Claire eventually return to the caves while Sayid and Charlie went to rescue the baby?

[HawaiiHeaven]

Leuthen, your comments are well taken, and concerning your "destiny twin" theory, I would say that it is intriguing to think, and would be fascinating to watch, how Locke could somehow get his polar opposite Jack (science vs. faith, rationalism vs. destiny) over to his side through some type of manipulation that we see he is very good at. (He's "good at playing games" remember Mousetrap?)!

Acovell and Hodgepodge I agree that Jack (and we) have not figured out Locke's part in, and feelings about, Boone's death. Locke does see it as Destiny, thus out of his control since it was "meant to happen", though he unmistakably played a part in the death by bringing Boone alone to the plane and impulsively telling him to go up to it without waiting for a safer plan. We have yet to be shown who is really the "good" one and who is the "bad" one, concerning Locke and Jack, though on the scoreboard, Jack saved a few lives- he resuscitated Charlie, and saved Kate because he switched backpacks with Kate who ran without taking off her backpack-and Locke caused Boone's death.

The "hallucinations" Locke had about Boone's Nanny being killed might have led him to "believe" that Boone deserved or was destined to be killed by fate and he was helping to fulfill Boone's destined fate, which would hint at a very dark and dangerous side to Locke's psyche if he feels it is his duty to help the "island" fulfill people's destinies. We see he only told everyone about the Hatch when he knew he needed their help to open it and he impulsively blew it open, without even pausing, even as Hurley was screaming for him to stop. JACK would have paused to consider Hurley.

[Celtic Ceilidh]

I wonder when Locke started having visions. Has it been only since being on the island or perhaps his visions are what led him to Australia in the first place. If Locke believes he's getting these visions from a "divine" source, he could become extremely dangerous to the rest of them, especially if he starts acting like a Jim Jones type.

[acovell]

The "hallucinations" Locke had about Boone's Nanny being killed might have led him to "believe" that Boone deserved or was destined to be killed by fate and he was helping to fulfill Boone's destined fate, which would hint at a very dark and dangerous side to Locke's psyche if he feels it is his duty to help the "island" fulfill people's destinies. We see he only told everyone about the Hatch when he knew he needed their help to open it and he impulsively blew it open, without even pausing, even as Hurley was screaming for him to stop.

One of the pitfalls/traps in believing in Destiny is that it can lead to dangerous behavior -- if it's meant to happen that we'll die, then we'll die no matter what we do, so we might as well blow the hatch.

I didn't mean to say that Locke believed Boone deserved to die for Teresa's death at all, or that he thought it was Boone's destiny to die prior to Boone's death. I just mean that it's possible Locke misunderstood what the vision was telling him. Rather than seeing it as a literal vision of an injured Boone, he saw it as a metaphor for a secret in Boone's past.

[HawaiiHeaven]

Yes, Celtic, when he speaks of the Island, it is with the reverence one would have to fulfilling the Divine's Will, and he seems to feel he can see what that Will is, as though he were a "seer" (a seer is a biblical term for a prophet).

[HawaiiHeaven]

Acovell, I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I know that you were saying that Locke saw Boone's death as destiny for some ultimate reason, as opposed to Jack's view, and you did not mean that Locke thought Boone deserved to die. But I was just expounding on your thought, that perhaps Locke sees himself as a facilitator of the Destiny that the Island has in store for each of them, and he will see and interpret signs from the "island" as to what "should" happen and it could be dangerous if he helps the Island this way instead of acting, as Jack would, to change the course of events (like pulling Locke out of the monster hole) and make one's own destiny and one's own fate.

[acovell]

But I was just expounding on your thought, that perhaps Locke sees himself as a facilitator of the Destiny that the Island has in store for each of them, and he will see and interpret signs from the "island" as to what "should" happen and it could be dangerous if he helps the Island this way instead of acting, as Jack would, to change the course of events (like pulling Locke out of the monster hole) and make one's own destiny and one's own fate.

Thanks for the clarification. I think we're all expecting some sort of Jack/Locke showdown. The thing is, I don't think they're all that far apart morally.

[Hodgepodge]

acovell says:My take on that is that he misunderstood what it meant. Wasn't that the "Teresa falls down the stairs; Teresa falls up the stairs" thing? If I'm remembering that correctly, he asked Boone who Teresa was or what that meant. He may have thought Boone was bloodied in his vision because Boone felt guilty about Teresa's death or because Teresa had been bloodied when she fell. I don't think he realized it meant that Boone was literally going to be injured until Boone was already up in the plane...I've got a question for you! I was reminded of it after reading Celtic Ceilidh post above. Do you think Locke has received all of his survivor messages, i.e. Boone's need to get over Shannon. Jack's needed to continue his journey in White Rabbit. Sawyer's conflict with that boar. And all the other Locke'isms from dreams/hallucinations? The reason I ask, maybe he was just interpreting this dream like the others? His normal MO!



acovell also says:...If I'm not mistaken, had his legs not given out on him, Locke would have gone into the plane, and he would have been the one who fell. That's why Locke believes Boone was a sacrifice demanded by the island -- it would have been him in the plane -- not Boone -- if the island hadn't momentarily taken away his ability to walk. In other words, I think he assumed the vision was telling him something personal about Boone's past -- not that it literally meant Boone was going to fall.

HawaiiHeaven says:Acovell and Hodgepodge I agree that Jack (and we) have not figured out Locke's part in, and feelings about, Boone's death. Locke does see it as Destiny, thus out of his control since it was "meant to happen", though he unmistakably played a part in the death by bringing Boone alone to the plane and impulsively telling him to go up to it without waiting for a safer plan. We have yet to be shown who is really the "good" one and who is the "bad" one, concerning Locke and Jack, though on the scoreboard, Jack saved a few lives- he resuscitated Charlie, and saved Kate because he switched backpacks with Kate who ran without taking off her backpack-and Locke caused Boone's death...This I believe with all my heart. The island became aware of the relationship between Locke and Boone. The island gave Locke that vision knowing he was going to be the one to climb into the Beechcraft. The island takes away Locke's mobility. Boone's the one that ends up in the plane. Voila, Boone's dead!

[Celtic Ceilidh]

Intriguing question, Hodge. I think Locke did get his survivor messages in dreams. Some of them were accurate and now he thinks all of them are visions or prophecies or whatever. He thinks it's a special gift from the island so he doesn't believe that they could be wrong, just that he's being tested to prove his worthiness.

[HawaiiHeaven]

The other possibility is, if we consider the theory that the Others manipulated each person onto the Island, that the Others are giving Locke this information, or visions, about each person's secrets so that they can use Locke to manipulate the other castaways. The Others may be guiding Locke's visions in some way that we have not seen yet, and may have begun doing this even before the crash if we believe there was a Network of Others on the Mainland. Locke may believe he is a seer and views the Island as a deity because he believes it guides him and "healed" him.

When his paralysis began returning Locke was even more stubborn about continuing on his hike with Boone to the plane, and deliberately led him there as his legs were failing him instead of returning to camp. Instead of using his own judgement, he is always guided by what HE THINKS the "Island" is trying to tell him to do. I really think that when Boone told Locke that the vision of Teresa going Up the stairs and Down meant that Theresa fell to her death, Locke saw that as a sign from the Island to send Up Boone to the plane, and when he fell to his death Locke saw that as a fulfillment of Boone's destiny as shown to him by the Island.

[acovell]

I really think that when Boone told Locke that the vision of Teresa going Up the stairs and Down meant that Theresa fell to her death, Locke saw that as a sign from the Island to send Up Boone to the plane, and when he fell to his death Locke saw that as a fulfillment of Boone's destiny as shown to him by the Island.

I might be able to buy into this if not for the fact that when the plane started to shift, Locke got a terrified look on his face and screamed "Boone, get out of there." Also, if he believed, prior to the airplane falling, that it was Boone's destiny to die, why did he carry him all the way back to camp so Jack could try to save him?

[Brian]

acovell,
I think Jack misunderstands Locke about Boone being a sacrifice the island demanded. I think Jack's missing the point that Boone's death was a surprise to Locke and that it hurt Locke very much. You can see it in his eyes. It was a personal loss to Locke -- he had developed a father/son relationship with Boone. The only way he can hold onto his belief that there's meaning in what they're experiencing is to tell himself that Boone's death was "meant to be." If it wasn't fated, then Boone's death has no meaning in Locke's eyes, and it MUST have meaning or there's no point to anything.

Absolutely. I couldn't have said it any better myself. I normally wouldn't quote an entire post but it was too poignant to simply cut apart.

I agree that Locke took Boone's death very personally! However, he's not the type of character to allow any weakness to show so I don't think he'd every tell Jack that, not yet anyway.

Great post! Thanks.

[acovell]

Great post! Thanks.

Why, thank you, Leuthen.

[Brian]

My take on that is that he misunderstood what it meant. Wasn't that the "Teresa falls down the stairs; Teresa falls up the stairs" thing?

Yes, acovell, and that's why I've said all along Locke misunderstood the vision. It was that whole "Teresa" thing that I think threw Locke a little.

Someone did a wonderful explanation of the dream sequence before the crash (of ezBoard that is) regarding the direction Boone was looking in Locke's vision versus the direction Locke was looking. Something about Boone facing the past and Locke facing the plane going down as seeing that as their future. Hodge, was that you? I so wish we could find that post. It would explain that whole vision sequence in a new light. When I read it to my wife she just said, "Wow!"

[HawaiiHeaven]

I think that after he acted impulsively and stubbornly on his visions to keep on manipulating Boone and to get Boone to go up to the plane and AFTER Boone died he saw the death, interpreted his death, as fitting in with what he thinks was his Boone's Destiny. Locke is very impulsive and will view any action in service of the Island and his visions as Destiny. He will challenge Jack but will never never challenge the "Island" [or by extension in the future the "others"]. For this reason Locke's actions will increasingly be seen as irrational and bizarre by Jack but will be completely satisfying to Locke.

[Brian]

Hodge,
This I believe with all my heart. The island became aware of the relationship between Locke and Boone. The island gave Locke that vision knowing he was going to be the one to climb into the Beechcraft. The island takes away Locke's mobility. Boone's the one that ends up in the plane. Voila, Boone's dead!

Very well said! I just wish Locke had payed better attention to the vision he had. I know, in retrospect, that's easy to say. I totally missed the link myself. Hodge, you and I have been discussing the bloody Boone thing for a long time and it's still one of the most intriquing scenes, IMO, to date. I can't wait to see it again to see if there's anything in that scene I missed the first time around that could have possibly raised a flag with Locke.

[Brian]

HH,
I think that after he acted impulsively and stubbornly on his visions to keep on manipulating Boone and to get Boone to go up to the plane and AFTER Boone died he saw the death, interpreted his death, as fitting in with what he thinks was his Boone's Destiny. Locke is very impulsive and will view any action in service of the Island and his visions as Destiny.

First, please don't misinterpret what I'm going to say as snarky, I'm just trying to keep it as simple as possible! :)

OK, are you saying, basically, that Locke, after the fact, is just plugging the events surrounding Boones death into his preconceived vision? IE - Playing Monday morning quarterback, for lack of a better word? Just curious because it's a good idea. I can't say that I wouldn't do the same were I in Locke's place.

Also, I only have 1 tiny thing I disagree with you about. It wasn't Locke who wanted Boone on the plane, it was the island and it achieved that end working through Locke. The island is almost playing the role of jealous girlfriend here. It took away Locke's ability to walk so there was no other choice but for Boone to climb up to the plane. Funny, Locke had no trouble walking, or running, after the plane fell.

For all those "Locke murdered Boone!" fans out there, Locke didn't murder Boone, the island did! Locke was just an unfortunate witness to the event. Then again, most likely the island needed Locke to witness it so perhaps it wasn't so unfortunate after all.

Just my .02. Thanks all for such wonderful discussion about this! I love this thread! :)

[athywithak]

I agree with acovell that Locke didn't sacrifice (the verb) Boone and also that Locke probably didn't know Boone was a sacrifice (noun) until after the plane fell.

I am a Locke fan overall - I think my first post was to defend Locke as a Shaman. However, I am concerned at his recent behavior: his blind loyalty to what he thinks he knows, his lack of obvious remorse about lying to Jack about how Boone was injured, his...game playing.

Locke has led several castaways toward personal growth, but I don't see Locke growing.

We know that before the plane crash, at some point maybe over four years ago, he was easily manipulated by his parents. We know that just before his trip he was delusional and somewhat manipulated by "Helen." I used to think he was stronger now, empowered to see beyond what most people see, because of his previous experiences. Most people are easily deluded if you tell them what they want to hear. If you fool them into expecting to see one thing and hand them another, they still see what they expected (try this with an old concert ticket stub next time you can't get in to a sold out show).

Now I begin to fear Locke is still being manipulated. And becoming a manipulator, too.

I love the idea that Locke will eventually "turn" Jack, Leuthen! This is how I hope things will go. I hope that Locke seems crazy but turns out, in the end, to have the inside info and strength and goodwill to be the Shaman after all. And as characters realize they are on an island where one finds polar bears and large boats far inland, Locke will gain credibility.

Zambini Stardust, good point about groups, but I don't know where to take it. Do you?

Kw/K

[HawaiiHeaven]

Leuthen, I see what you are saying, but I don't believe the Island or Locke "killed" Boone- he just died as a result of stubborness and negligence, mostly Locke's stubborness about not returning to camp. I think that Locke acts according to his "visions" and beliefs about what the Island wants him to do and then sees any consequences as Destiny, especially if they fit into his "visions". He believes that the Island leads people to do what they do and not free will [This is for another discussion relating to Island/ deity]. I do agree to the extent that the "Island did it" that Locke is being manipulated by the Island but you see that as real, and I see that as what Locke perceives- Locke perceives that the Island guides people's behaviors.

[Hodgepodge]

Celtic Ceilidh says: Intriguing question, Hodge. I think Locke did get his survivor messages in dreams. Some of them were accurate and now he thinks all of them are visions or prophecies or whatever. He thinks it's a special gift from the island so he doesn't believe that they could be wrong, just that he's being tested to prove his worthiness.Damn CC! If you're right and Locke receives these messages through little snippets in dreams/hallucinations, that's definitely a hit-or-miss situation. I'm wondering what he saw in his Boone/Shannon montage?


HawaiiHeaven says:The other possibility is, if we consider the theory that the Others manipulated each person onto the Island, that the Others are giving Locke this information, or visions, about each person's secrets so that they can use Locke to manipulate the other castaways. The Others may be guiding Locke's visions in some way that we have not seen yet, and may have begun doing this even before the crash if we believe there was a Network of Others on the Mainland. Locke may believe he is a seer and views the Island as a deity because he believes it guides him and "healed" him...You know, we still don't know whether anyone else is having these dreams/hallucinations, and are just disregarding them. Wait a minute! Jack did see his dead father. And while on that journey, found the cave encampment and fresh water. Also, we still haven't come up with why Claire had a dream about the "Black Rock" before anybody ever mentioned the phrase.


HawaiiHeaven also says:...When his paralysis began returning Locke was even more stubborn about continuing on his hike with Boone to the plane, and deliberately led him there as his legs were failing him instead of returning to camp. Instead of using his own judgment, he is always guided by what HE THINKS the "Island" is trying to tell him to do. I really think that when Boone told Locke that the vision of Teresa going Up the stairs and Down meant that Theresa fell to her death, Locke saw that as a sign from the Island to send Up Boone to the plane, and when he fell to his death Locke saw that as a fulfillment of Boone's destiny as shown to him by the Island.HH, I just had a terrible thought! Could Locke have been faking? I've always said the island gave him back his mobility. That's how he was able to carry Boone back to the caves. Maybe he thought, what's a little bloody Boone? Then realized, he was really hurt badly. OMG!


Leuthen says:...Someone did a wonderful explanation of the dream sequence before the crash (of ezBoard that is) regarding the direction Boone was looking in Locke's vision versus the direction Locke was looking. Something about Boone facing the past and Locke facing the plane going down as seeing that as their future. Hodge, was that you? I so wish we could find that post. It would explain that whole vision sequence in a new light. When I read it to my wife she just said, "Wow!" No, it wasn't me. But is sounds interesting.


Leuthen also says:...Hodge, you and I have been discussing the bloody Boone thing for a long time and it's still one of the most intriguing scenes, IMO, to date. I can't wait to see it again to see if there's anything in that scene I missed the first time around that could have possibly raised a flag with Locke.I know! I guess because I'm such a Locke fan, and knowing someone is going to get hurt is so not like him. We've seen a man who'll do just about anything to make someones life better. He may go about it strangely, but until that incident, everything worked out OK.

[Brian]

Hodge,

We've seen a man who'll do just about anything to make someones life better. He may go about it strangely, but until that incident, everything worked out OK.

Yes, his methods are different and possibly that's the reason Jack doesn't trust him. Jack doesn't appreciate his methods. Being a man of science, Jack isn't one for the gray area, if you will. I think of Jack's thinking as being black or white while Locke's quite content to play in the gray area.

[Brian]

HH,

I gotcha now! :) Thanks for the clarification!

[HawaiiHeaven]

Also, I only have 1 tiny thing I disagree with you about. It wasn't Locke who wanted Boone on the plane, it was the island and it achieved that end working through Locke. The island is almost playing the role of jealous girlfriend here. It took away Locke's ability to walk so there was no other choice but for Boone to climb up to the plane. Funny, Locke had no trouble walking, or running, after the plane fell.
Leuthen, I understand your view that Locke is being guided by the Island and he sees himself as helping people achieve their destinies that he uniquely sees in visions and perhaps even prophecies.

I try to see Locke from a completely psychological perspective. I believe he suffers very complex psychological disorders but may also have a degree of intuitive psychic spiritual abilities, and the Island fits into his psychological states. I believe his paralysis coming back was his own mind playing tricks on him and that the paralysis returned as his obsession with Boone grew. Many of his visions are in his own mind. I think he saw the plane stuck in the trees before. In the episode he stubbornly leads Boone even though there was no urgent need to do so, no real reason, to the plane. His "vision" and "paralysis" made him direct Boone to go up the precipice, but this "paralysis" was in his own mind. Once Boone died he saw that as a fulfillment of his visions and Destiny which drives him even more recklessly and passionately to believe in the "Island". This may serve him well or not and he may turn out to be right or wrong. I believe Locke's paralysis was always part of a psychological disorder that he believes was cured by the Island. Locke is a very fascinating character which is why I love this show.

[Brian]

Let's try this again.

[Brian]

I found the dream sequence description I mentioned earlier.

Here's the link:

p073.ezboard.com/flostthe...=103.topic (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm25.showMes sage?topicID=103.topic)

And here's the post:
-----------------------
.
..
...
i think it's important to understand the dream.

the dream:
locke is trying to figure out how to open the hatch.
boone tests his faith, so to speak. he is the voice of doubt.
when locke has no answer for him, he relies on faith. "the island will give us a sign."
boon again doubts it, and continues to test his faith.
to locke's right, through the trees he sees a plane crashing.
he turns to his left to see if boone saw it.
boone is looking in the opposite direction.
locke calls to him.
boone continues to look the other way.
it flashes to boone bloody, saying "theresa falls up the stairs, theresa falls down the stairs."
you hear the sound of thick glass breaking.
you see locke's mother standing behind him pointing in the direction of the plane and saying something inaudible.
as locke continues to look at boone, he ends up in a wheelchair facing the same direction that boone is facing.
he cries, "no, don't take it back!"
he wakes up.

now, the key elements to me are the directions they are facing.
locke says, the island will (future) give us a sign." he sees the plane to his right, that is his future - to go to that plane.
boone is looking the other direction, the past. he is reciting an event that happened when he was 6, and we see him covered in blood.

locke's destiny is to find the plane. boone's destiny is to deal with his past.
locke's mother in the dream is not his real mother. (it is her when he first met her while she was wearing the fur coat. at that meeting in his life, she tells him that he was special, immaculately conceived. he still believes he is special.) this "mother" in the dream is a representation of guidance into his destiny of specialness. you see her pointing in the direction of the plane.

the thick glass breaking noise is obviously the hatch glass.

as locke continues to look at boone (who is dealing with his guilt) locke ends up in a wheelchair, facing the same direction. his mother is still standing behind him pointing toward the plane.
that is to say, locke will return to his former self to assist boone in dealing with his past.

this scene, of course, scares locke awake.

so as the episode progresses, we see that locke indeed is returning to his former self. not as punishment, or because the island needs a sacrifice, but as a means to allow boone to climb up to the plane.

locke does mention the "theresa falls up the stairs" part of his dream to boone. that part alone has incredible significance to boone, and i have mentioned on another thread that that issue was fresh in his mind as he climbed up to the plane. locke typically does not reveal everything he knows. so, it's no surprise that he didn't mention the blood (or other significant points of the dream.) and as mentioned by someone else, he does yell a few times for boone to get out of the plane. boone chooses to stay. the island, nor locke forced him to stay. and by the way, i think it was an act of heroism on boone's part. he risked his life to try and save the others.

locke's abilities come back as soon as boone has gone through the fire. and i have also mentioned this before, but locke's ability to bring boone back alive has triggered other issues in people that need to be dealt with.

as far as the rest of the episode's parallel stories go, we are meant to see locke's interaction with a power that let him down (his mum and dad). we also see that this could be a possible set-up by the new power in his life, the island. but this is how faith works- faith is only faith if you have reason to disbelieve but choose not to. it is interesting to note also, that locke's dad's name is "anthony cooper". in our history, "john locke" and "anthony cooper" were philosophers of the same era that had differing opinions. so in that light, it's wrong to see locke as his father in relationship to boone. locke is not his dad.

and the island is not like locke's dad, either. where we see that locke's dad turned him away, the island does not.

and for the record, IMO locke put salve on boone's head in "heart and minds", not a drug. if it was just a drug, then boone would need to go to jack for his wound, and jack would want an explaination.
but doesn't locke say that "it" made boone see something?
locke says, "that's what it made you see?" the "it" is the same "it" that locke saw (that he later says, "i have looked into the eye of this island, and what i saw was beautiful." it made locke see something as well.

so, long story long....
i don't want to beat locke up.
...
..
.
-----------------------
There it is. It's from the "does anyone else wanna beat up locke?" thread.

I didn't edit anything and provided the link so you can view it in it's context if you so desire.

I thought it was a pretty good analysis of something I didn't even notice.

[Brian]

HH, <---hope you don't mind that abbreviation BTW! :)

I believe he suffers very complex psychological disorders but may also have a degree of intuitive psychic spiritual abilities, and the Island fits into his psychological states.

I don't know if I'd classify it as "psychological disorders" but there's definitely something not right going on up there! I equate "disorder" with deficiency and I don't think Locke is deficient in any way. He may be wierd/odd/abnormal/quirky/illogical/fill-in-the-blank at times but he's not mental if you will. At least not to me and I'm weird that way myself! :)

I believe his paralysis coming back was his own mind playing tricks on him

Well, I can agree with you on that, at least if it's only partially. I still think the island had something to do with it. Why? Remember the trebuchet incident? Locke had a shard of the trebuchet shot into his leg and he didn't even feel it. Surely that wasn't his mind at work since Boone had to ask him about it! :)

I believe Locke's paralysis was always part of a psychological disorder that he believes was cured by the Island.
OK, I'm with you on this one as well. Just thought I'd make it overtly obvious by saying so! :)

Locke is a very fascinating character which is why I love this show.

You and me both! I don't discuss any other characters, normally, unless they are intertwined somehow with Locke. Everyone likes the show for their own reasons, Locke is mine (reason that is). :)

[HawaiiHeaven]

Hodgepodge wrote:

You know, we still don't know whether anyone else is having these dreams/hallucinations, and are just disregarding them. Wait a minute! Jack did see his dead father. And while on that journey, found the cave encampment and fresh water. Also, we still haven't come up with why Claire had a dream about the "Black Rock" before anybody ever mentioned the phrase.

That is a very interesting observation, Hodgepodge- there have been visions by Jack, Claire, and maybe other people have had them and disregarded them, as you say. If the Others need to take other castaways beside Walt, what better way to manipulate them into their clutches than through hallucinations? Once the castaways put together the pieces and see that Walt was taken once they split up and were more defenseless, they may see the need to stay together. Since Locke is so susceptible to following hallucinations and visions, he could be the most dangerous in leading people astray, even though that would not necessarily be his intention.

[Pirate328]

Has nayone ever read the book Island? It was a kid's book. 6-8 kids shipwrecked on an island. All of the adults on the ship died. In the end they find Little boy the atomic bomb. You know where this is going... I think that they buried little boy here. The atomic bomb screwed up the island. Things radiated... monsters appeared... zombies. That is also an explanation for the crash. The readiation screwed the plane up. The only problem with this is: "Why is the french woman not dead yet?" Who knows... maybe the radiation is gone but the terrifying after affects linger on. I think that they will find zombies and government stuff in the hatch. Aliens maybe. Maybe the french woman is part zombie. Maybe that is why she killed here son/daughter/freiends/husband (I know she killed someone(Can't remember everyone)).

[Pirate328]

Oh yeah: What was i going to say... oh crud. Oh yeah: What was i going to say... oh crud. Oh yeah: I had an ideaq about pirates being on the island. I think they crashed. There may have been let us say a few woman (3) and a few men (8-10). I think that they were on the island for at least 300 years. I believe that they passed on offspring. However because of the small amount of people they imbreed. Now there are imbreed human freaks on the island. Has anyone ever seen Wrong Turn? That would be similar.

Also here is why Arts (the teacher blew up). Jack, Hurley, Locke, and um the prison girl (sorry i forgot her name) had the same seats in order as the numbers that Hurley says are cursed. Arts did not. The hatch required those people to open. I believe that those people are tied to those numbers in other ways. They are like PHI of lost (1.618) .

[Pirate328]

rrr

[Pirate328]

eee

[Zambini Stardust]

Please forgive me for not posting the quotation here, but it was several messages ago and I just got caught up reading this thread. Anyway, someone said something about Jack being a "man of science" and not dealing with shades of gray, he always sees things in black and white. I have a problem with that. I am a scientist, and I can assure you we see lots of shades of gray. That is why we INTERPRET data rather than simpling reading the answer. Likewise, few scientific principals are truly black and white. Take the theory of evolution - yes it is still a theory and always will be because it can never be proven or disproven empirically. And yet, as a scientist, I believe that species do evolve, and that biological systems within a particular species (say, the skeletal system of verterbrates) survive evolution because they impart a benefit to the host. And yet, the theory of evolution is not a simple binary equation, but is instead a complex series of mathematical equations that yield a spectrum of answers.

Now, extend the discussion to Jack's chosen field of science - medicine. Do you really want a doctor who sees only black and white? Sure, some decisions are that easy - the patient is bleeding to death, shall we apply pressure to stop the bleeding? YES. But most medical decisions are not that simple. The patient is in her third trimester of pregnancy and has developed a serious intestinal lesion that requires surgery to correct. Without surgery, there is a 25% chance the patient will die. With surgery, there is a 95% chance she will live but also a 95% chance the baby will die. Notice none of those chances are 0% or 100% (binary choices). As the doctor, how do you decide how to advise the patient? You can't make a simple black and white decision, you have to use fuzzy logic and yes, even your heart.

If Jack truly is a good doctor and a man of science, he'd better not be seeing things as black and white. He'd better be using his judgement.

[HawaiiHeaven]

I agree Zambini- I think that there is a danger in reading signs and visions. In most cases, a sign can only be interpreted by looking backward and not forward, because any action taken can bring a result that can be interpreted as destiny and fitting into a sign, that if another action had been taken could also fit the sign depending on how you interpreted it.

Locke has had some real errors in judgement due to his impulsiveness and stubborness in trying to please the Island which he PERCEIVES, is guiding them. But he has also helped some people.

Jack has displayed very good judgment, especially under pressure. He has also entered the "gray" areas a number of times, as when he allowed the Marshall to die, and when he accepted Kate's past life of crime.

We are going to see these concepts of: faith, destiny, choice, free will, logic and reason, fate, spirituality, supernatural, good and evil, ALL come more into focus between Jack and Locke next season... and I can't wait!

[Hodgepodge]

First off, this is the best thread on the board. We needed it after the EZhack fiasco.


HawaiiHeaven says:...If the Others need to take other castaways beside Walt, what better way to manipulate them into their clutches than through hallucinations?...HH et al., remember when Michael came up with the idea for the raft? He's watching Walt sleep. Almost in a daze like. Could the "Others" have given him a vision/hallucination? Could the raft have been the idea of the "Others"?

Also, has anyone asked why Capt. Gorton and his crew were out that particular night? Why they were in that particular area of water? Were they actually looking for the rafters? Get where I'm going now?


Dark Stool ~Leuthen says:...locke's destiny is to find the plane. boone's destiny is to deal with his past.
locke's mother in the dream is not his real mother. (it is her when he first met her while she was wearing the fur coat. at that meeting in his life, she tells him that he was special, immaculately conceived. he still believes he is special.) this "mother" in the dream is a representation of guidance into his destiny of specialness. you see her pointing in the direction of the plane.

the thick glass breaking noise is obviously the hatch glass...So are you saying Locke was suppose to help Boone deal with the "Theresa incident"?

In reading about the glass breaking, I immediately thought of the plane's windshield breaking when it crashed into the ground.


Dark Stool ~Leuthen also says:...as locke continues to look at boone (who is dealing with his guilt) locke ends up in a wheelchair, facing the same direction. his mother is still standing behind him pointing toward the plane.
that is to say, locke will return to his former self to assist boone in dealing with his past.

this scene, of course, scares locke awake...This is confusing to me! Are you guys saying, Locke will become immobile when he helps Boone through this guilt? Because as you mention, at this point, Locke only cares about getting to the Beechcraft, and in turn into the hatch.


Dark Stool ~Leuthen says:...and for the record, IMO locke put salve on boone's head in "heart and minds", not a drug. if it was just a drug, then boone would need to go to jack for his wound, and jack would want an explaination.
but doesn't locke say that "it" made boone see something?
locke says, "that's what it made you see?" the "it" is the same "it" that locke saw (that he later says, "i have looked into the eye of this island, and what i saw was beautiful." it made locke see something as well...So, you're saying there wasn't any inducement to Boone's hallucination? And if that's the case, we'll have to add him to Claire and Jack, as other survivors having dreams/visions/hallucinations.

[Brian]

Zambini,
Anyway, someone said something about Jack being a "man of science" and not dealing with shades of gray, he always sees things in black and white. I have a problem with that. I am a scientist, and I can assure you we see lots of shades of gray.

Holds up hand. It was me and to keep continuity, this is what I said,
Jack doesn't appreciate his methods. Being a man of science, Jack isn't one for the gray area, if you will. I think of Jack's thinking as being black or white while Locke's quite content to play in the gray area.

First of all, let me aplogize if I offended you, that wasn't my intention. I couldn't come up with the right words for what I was thinking at the time so I just used the black/white/gray analogy and then I added ", if you will." in light of the fact that I knew everyone who read that would take it in their own way.

What I was talking about when I said that was Jack's inability to see things as Locke sees them and the very same could be said in reverse. I meant that, as a doctor, Jack doesn't appreciate Locke's supernatural approach to dealing with problems on the island. I was also alluding to situations such as when Jack had to deal with his father performing his duties while intoxicated. Yeah, there was a hell of a lot of gray area in there when Jack was deciding whether to tell on his father or not but in the end, he chose the path of right versus wrong and did the right thing. I didn't mean that people of science deal in absolutes, that'd be a ludicrous thing for me to say since I believe completely in the opposite. I used an analogy for what I was thinking at the time, not trying to make a blanket statement. I guess I should have stated at the time that I was tagging that comment completely to Jack and Locke alone but my fingers overran my brain in that instance.

I apologize for the misunderstanding and I hope this clarifies what I meant. Thanks for calling me on it! :)

[Brian]

Hodge,
First off, this is the best thread on the board. We needed it after the EZhack fiasco.
I agree 100%. I guess that's I spend so much time here. The destiny twins and their relationship really intrigues me, not only because of their relationship, but how their relationship osmotically finds itself all throughout the island and the castaways.
Also, has anyone asked why Capt. Gorton and his crew were out that particular night? Why they were in that particular area of water? Were they actually looking for the rafters? Get where I'm going now?
Yeah, I get you! :) What do I think? I think they knew Walt was on the raft and leaving, couldn't find him so were returning to the island, then were given a beacon straight to him. In that instance, Walt instigated his own kidnapping. Here's what'll really mess with your head, given Walt's powers, was there a reason he was so emphatic with Michael to fire that flare? Hmm.........
So are you saying Locke was suppose to help Boone deal with the "Theresa incident"?
Since I didn't write it, I have no idea. I would think probably so but I don't really know for sure. Then again, since Locke helped Charlie with his problem (which is now in question), then perhaps Locke was supposed to help Boone with this. How? To teach Boone to put others before himself. He (Boone) was constantly calling Theresa and thereby was a mitigating factor in her fall. Boone's actions at the Beechcraft showed that he had dealt with the Theresa incident because he became more than himself. Even while being warned that the plane was going to fall, Boone stayed at the radio trying to help the castaways. Perhaps we chalk up #2 to Locke?
Are you guys saying, Locke will become immobile when he helps Boone through this guilt?
Again, I didn't write it so I can only speculate. I'd say that the island was kind of taking over at this point. It immobilized Locke so he 1 - couldn't go into the Beechcraft himself and 2 - couldn't aid Boone during the process of the Beechcraft falling (ala pulling Boone out at the last minute). Locke was fully mobile after the crash.
So, you're saying there wasn't any inducement to Boone's hallucination? And if that's the case, we'll have to add him to Claire and Jack, as other survivors having dreams/visions/hallucinations.
Again, not my words. I'm too up in the air about the hallucinations at this point to attribute them to any one entity, human or otherwise.

I just copied it here because I found it very interesting. Everything between ". .. ..." and "... .. ." is from the original poster. I just found the whole which direction they were facing during the vision an amazing analysis. As I re-read it though and attempt to answer questions, I'm gaining a better understanding of that vision sequence and therein, Locke. :)

[Pirate328]

Yes i think that captain gorton was watching them. I thjink he has alex too.

[Zambini Stardust]

Leuthen, no offense taken. My point was not to defend scientists, but to question Jack's judgment. Disclaimer: I really don't like Jack. Anyway, I was agreeing with your original statement that Jack sees things in B&W, and I find that dangerous in a scientist or a doctor. However, it has subsequently been pointed out on this thread that Jack sometimes sees shades of gray, i.e., thinking with his heart rather than his logic - humanely killing the marshall, ratting on his drunk dad, and I would add bleeding himself into Boone even though his logic told him Boone was a goner.

So, I soften my stance somewhat: Jack can see gray, but very few shades. Locke sees the entire spectrum of gray, but not the B&W ends at all. The destiny twins, as we have begun calling them, need to work together to complement one another's strengths and weaknesses and recognize the entire spectrum.

And I predict that is exactly what we will see in season 2. We're all expecting the camp to splinter into two groups, one lead by Locke the other by Jack. I predict instead Jack and Locke will reach an uneasy truce with one another, and someone else will lead the opposing faction. Sayid? Michael? Kate and Sawyer? Who knows?

[Pirate328]

I think that Walt imagined Captain Gorton, as we call him, and they appeared. He has done this several times before. For one of these times the thought was a raven as Walt was looking at a bird book. Now a raven flies into the window next to Walt. For another one Walt is reading a spanish comic book. He sees a polar bear. The same day Walt, Locke, and Walt's father are attacked by a polar bear on the island. Read the scripts from the finale episode(s). Try and find anything that anyone says to Walt about pirates. Also look for Walt reading any pirate books. Anything that would have lead to him generating Captain Gorton and his crew.

[Hodgepodge]

Zambini Stardust says:...Disclaimer: I really don't like Jack...I can vouch for that! ZS, along with a few others have forced me, over this first season, to take a closer look at Jack. They've forced me to see the flaws as well.


Zambini Stardust also says:...The destiny twins, as we have begun calling them, need to work together to complement one another's strengths and weaknesses and recognize the entire spectrum...I agree 100%! And the relationship started out on such highs. The scene from White Rabbit. Locke pulls Jack up from hanging over the cliff. After their initial conversation, Locke is heading out again. Jack wants to go with him and search for water. Locke tells him, no. "You need to finish what's you've started." Jack asks why! "Because a leader can't lead until he knows where he's going."

At that point, Locke has turned over the leadership reins to Jack. Then everybody thought it would be a good idea to start keeping secrets.

"What a tangled web we weave. When first we practice to deceive."

[Leafy]

I agree that there will be another faction developed, probably led by Kate. In fact it seems like not long after Lost started, I read someplace that she will become a leader of some group. Sawyer? Hmmmm, I don't think so. He's too abrasive. Unless getting shot off the raft changed his way of looking at the world.

I don't think Locke wants to be a leader, exactly, I mean he he isn't telling anybody how to do things. (He did tell boone to go up in the Cessna, but he also told him to get out of it before it started to fall. Boone made the choice to stay on the radio.) Locke just goes his own way. If he becomes a leader, it will be a matter of people following him, not that he is leading them.

[HawaiiHeaven]

Further Insight into Locke is still difficult due to the remaining quandary of Locke's interactions with Boone where Locke's motivations remain unclear. It has been posted that Locke was seeking a Father/Son or mentor relationship, and he was trying to help Boone free himself of his seemingly obsessive devotion to Shannon. But the questions remain:
What was it his business really if Boone was obsessed with Shannon, and was it just a manipulative, even selfish, way to get Boone completely devoted to him?
What was the urgency of showing Boone the Cessna and asking him to go up that very moment instead of waiting and coming up with a plan, since the Cessna did not in any way lead to the Hatch which was the main goal?
Wasn't it cruel, really, to tie up Boone even though it lead him to a realization about Shannon?

And, if it was NOT Locke who enabled Boone to have a hallucination or vision about Shannon dying through the use of a salve, then was Locke helping the Island or OTHERS give Boone the Hallucination, and has he been doing this all along, for example was the whole running from the monster/bear experience that helped Michael allow Walt to see Locke again really all a hallucination (the bear/monster was a hallucinatory experience and was never really there), and were all the other hallucination/visions that HodgePodge has listed been initiated by Locke at the behest of the Island or Others or for Locke's own either nefarious or Good reasons?

[Zambini Stardust]

Beechcraft, not Cessna.

I don't believe the bear incident with Walt, Michael, and Locke was an hallucination. If it was, p*ss on the writers for overusing a trite mechanism. None of those three was on the hike that encountered the first polar bear, which was decidely real and white and still breathing and bloody after Sawyer shot it. That bear was real (or CGI-animated for TV, but real in the sense that it was a real part of the scene). Since none of the three was on that trip, why would any of them be primed to imagine another bear?

So Walt 'sees' things and then they happen. We've debated whether this is indeed the case, his 'seeing' I mean, but the 'happening' is definitely real. Walt's mom and Brian did not imagine that bird smashing into the window after Walt was looking at the bird picture. No one imagined the first raft burning up after Walt was looking at comic book pictures of fire. So why should two adults imagine a bear after Walt saw bear pictures in the comic book? That was a real bear really trying to attack Walt. Locke and Michael worked together to save the snotty little brat.

And look what it got them all. I hope they reconsider before risking their own necks for his in the future.

[Zambini Stardust]

Disclaimer: Besides Jack, I really don't like Walt either. I pretty much like everyone else, even Shannon and Artz RIP.

[HawaiiHeaven]

Zambini- the bear was never shown in the Locke, Walt Michael incident (as far as I recall), only sounds, and Walt is the one with bears on his mind, so it could have been a joint attempt by both Locke and Walt to manipulate Michael. Walt can make things happen, and Locke can induce visions/dreams/hallucinations.

[LostInWilderness]

Leuthan said this pretty well, but I thought I'd weigh in. Right now the hatch group is looking to hide everyone. Locke is the natural selection to scout, but since he told Jack to let him go when the monster was pulling him underground, Jack won't let him go underground, because Jack won't trust him to stay focused on the goal of hiding everyone. I don't think Locke will mind letting Jack go down first because Locke trusts Jack to stay focused on the goal, so I think Jack goes down while Kate runs back to the caves to get people.

Having Aaron safe won't stop this process, because everyone still thinks the "others" are coming. Danielle's kidnapping of Aaron just enforces her words about that.

I doubt the island lostaways will find out about the raft for a long time. Unless they saw the flare go up, they couldn't see or hear what went on, so this won't have any effect on their actions either.

[Brian]

Leafy,
I agree that there will be another faction developed, probably led by Kate.

While I agree that the first part of this statement is a possibility, I disagree about the second. Kate's sticking with Jack. Jack, if I'm not mistaken, is the only one who knows her secret, possibly Hurley has an idea. Now, given that I said I agree the first part of your statement is a possibility, I think if it does happen, it will be Sayid. Sayid doesn't really trust Locke after finding out the truth about who knocked him out. I think Sayid is basically a blend, character-wise, of Locke and Jack. He's the middle ground, if you will.
I don't think Locke wants to be a leader, exactly, I mean he he isn't telling anybody how to do things.

The best leaders don't, and shouldn't have to really which leads me to......
If he becomes a leader, it will be a matter of people following him, not that he is leading them.

That's the short and simple version but right on! While you're attributing this to Locke, the exact same could be said of Sayid hence my earlier comments.

[Brian]

HH,

Further Insight into Locke is still difficult due to the remaining quandary of Locke's interactions with Boone where Locke's motivations remain unclear.
I agree. We're trying to figure out everything about the characters from the limited exposure we've had to them. Granted, we've been exposed to a lot, but not nearly enough. Especially in Locke's case. The biggest thing hanging over his character right now is the wheelchair, at least from a viewer standpoint. As big of a Locke fan that I am, who knows what's coming next season? What more will we learn about him, or Jack for that matter? Quandary indeed.


What was it his business really if Boone was obsessed with Shannon, and was it just a manipulative, even selfish, way to get Boone completely devoted to him?
To answer your first question, it was none of his business to interfere in any way/shape/form with Boone and Shannon. That said, I don't think that's why Locke was mentoring Boone. I think Locke was trying to make Boone appreciate the underlying reasons for that obsession. That is, Boone always thinking of himself first and others second. Through the backstories, how many times has Shannon attempted to screw Boone out of money? At least twice by my count with the last one being the reason they were in Sydney in the first place. Boone was there because he couldn't see the forest for the trees. He was blindly devoted/obsessed/whatever word you want to use, to Shannon. Does that negate what I said about Boone always thinking of himself first? No, it exemplifies it. How? Boone wanted Shannon for himself and he'd run off to whatever far corner of the world to ensure her safety, for himself. Shannon was using Boone and he didn't even realize it and if he did, he didn't care. Don't take that to mean that Shannon didn't care about Boone, I'm just discussing one side of the relationship.

Now as for your last paragraph, there's so much there covering so much ground it's difficult to break apart piece by piece. I don't think Locke caused Boone nor Jack's hallucinations. I don't think Locke had anything to do with the polar bear coming after Walt. I think the island affects everyone on a personal level. In Locke's case, it may, or may not, have given him the ability to walk, we don't know yet but it's widely believed it has.

To stay strictly with Locke and Boone, I think Locke tied Boone up to find out what motivates him. He seem all that willing to get the knife and cut himself free until he realized Shannon was in trouble. It was a transformation, sort of. I think the island, possibly through Locke, was showing Boone that there's no end to what you're capable of when you stop thinking about just yourself (IE-Boone cutting himself free just because he was tied up) and start putting others before yourself (IE-Boone finally reaching the knife when Shannon was in perceived danger). I don't remember that episode all that well and don't remember the exact moment Boone cut himself free, so I apologize if my timing is a bit off, but that's how I remember it.

[Brian]

Zambini,

No, really, how do you really feel! :)

Seriously though,
I don't believe the bear incident with Walt, Michael, and Locke was an hallucination. If it was, p*ss on the writers for overusing a trite mechanism

How true!
No one imagined the first raft burning up after Walt was looking at comic book pictures of fire.
True, and odd how quickly Locke knew the truth and called Walt on it, even after throwing a complete BS story to the rest of the castaways. Well, partially BS story anyway.
And look what it got them all. I hope they reconsider before risking their own necks for his in the future.

:lol I'm guessing you're not a huge Walt fan, huh? Just a hunch! :)

[Brian]

HH,

Zambini- the bear was never shown in the Locke, Walt Michael incident (as far as I recall), only sounds, and Walt is the one with bears on his mind, so it could have been a joint attempt by both Locke and Walt to manipulate Michael

You missed those teeth coming after Walt? No, they showed it, in fact Michael (or Walt, I don't remember) even stabbed at it. Walt may have thought it into existence, but it was there nonetheless.

[Zambini Stardust]

HawaiiHeaven says the polar bear was never shown in the Locke/Michael/Walt episode, but I distinctly remember watching Michael hiding in that tree swing a knife at something large and white. In fact, I may remember seeing the large white thing charging through the jungle, or I may be confusing that with the first polar bear escapade. I shall endeavor to re-watch that tape to clarify, but others are welcome to correct me if you can.

Leuthen, I think everyone knows Kate's secret. Remember the scene right before the raft launching when Sawyer exposed her to everyone, to keep her from getting his spot? He pointed out that she had stolen Joanna's passport, and Kate fessed up that she was on the run for something. Okay, she didn't say specifically what, I'll give you that. But, in another scene, Hurley says something to Jack about Kate being the prisoner, in the presence of Locke, and Locke asks why Jack didn't share that info with everyone. So at least Hurley and Locke know specifically that Kate was the prisoner. Am I remembering that incorrectly? Again, that's another tape I'll have to re-watch, or at least fast-forward to that scene :p

[Brian]

LIW,

Locke is the natural selection to scout, but since he told Jack to let him go when the monster was pulling him underground, Jack won't let him go underground, because Jack won't trust him to stay focused on the goal of hiding everyone.

As much as I like Locke, I have to agree with you on this. Locke has shown a tendency to stray from time to time and if/when anyone goes down the hatch, it should be a group effort just for this reason. Locke aside, anyone could fall prey to this natural tendency to get sidetracked in unfamiliar surroundings. The only person I see going down that hatch alone is Sayid and that's strictly due to his military background and training. He's had the presence of mind to stay focused trained into him. He was part of the Iraqi Republican Guard. Not exactly a forgiving group of people.
Having Aaron safe won't stop this process, because everyone still thinks the "others" are coming.
Absolutely. We have to remember to think of this hatch exploration thing in the timeline of the characters, not the viewers. As far as the characters are concerned, the Others are still coming.
I doubt the island lostaways will find out about the raft for a long time.
Again, you're dead on! They were 15 miles out so I doubt any of them saw the flare, after all, weren't they all moving toward the caves at the time? Given that even I believe the raft crew is going to make it back, they're 15 miles out. It's going to take a while. I think it should take at least 2 episodes before the castaways see the raft crew. Then again, this will all hinge on how much time is/was supposed to have passed during the offseason. We'll see.

As a side note - Does anyone else find it strange that Locke is the only one referred to by last name? I mean, Arzt aside, I'm talking about the main 14, now 13, core group.

[Pirate328]

Obvioiusly Jack has a hidden liking towards Locke. After not letting go of course. He could have. He was afraid. Jack has a natural liking towards everything i believe... even the bad...

[RaMatheron]

I don't know how much they'll trust what Danielle said if everyone finds out about where the black smoke came from and that there was nobody there. The only clue they had that there were any Others was Danielle. Now she's shown what the island did to her sanity after all these years, I don't know how much the lostaways will trust her.

Locke certainly kind of.. 'intrigues' Jack. He wants to know what's going on inside that bald little head of his. But I don't think that's the reason why Jack didn't want to let Locke go. He might dislike Locke, or maybe be affraid of him, but letting Locke go meant most likely killing him and I don't think Jack's going going to kill someone he dislikes.

[acovell]

I think the only one who wants to be the leader is Jack. I think both Locke and Sayid would prefer to operate under the radar, as would Kate. Jack bugs me, too, sometimes. He's got some kind of martyr complex going on. He's the only medical doctor on the island, and yet he puts himself in danger constantly, even when others are willing to do the job. In a way, I think he may be the most selfish person on the island. The rest of the survivors need him more than anyone else, and yet he always wants to be the hero by putting himself in jeopardy. If anyone has a god complex, it's Jack.

[Hodgepodge]

HawaiiHeaven says:Further Insight into Locke is still difficult due to the remaining quandary of Locke's interactions with Boone where Locke's motivations remain unclear. It has been posted that Locke was seeking a Father/Son or mentor relationship, and he was trying to help Boone free himself of his seemingly obsessive devotion to Shannon. But the questions remain:
What was it his business really if Boone was obsessed with Shannon, and was it just a manipulative, even selfish, way to get Boone completely devoted to him?...
Wasn't it cruel, really, to tie up Boone even though it lead him to a realization about Shannon?...This is an interesting prospect if you take the scene as it was presented.

Locke and Boone are walking through the jungle. Boone tells Locke he wants to tell Shannon about the hatch. Locke asks, "are you sure you want to do this? You're sure you've thought through the ramifications?" Boone says, "yes." And we all know what happened.


HawaiiHeaven also says:...And, if it was NOT Locke who enabled Boone to have a hallucination or vision about Shannon dying through the use of a salve, then was Locke helping the Island or OTHERS give Boone the Hallucination, and has he been doing this all along...Someone mentioned earlier in this thread about the salve not causing the hallucination, but was medicinal in nature.

Going to the Hearts and Minds transcripts again, Locke and Boone are looking at the hatch. Locke is mixing the potion in a coconut half-shell. Boone asks, "the stuff in the bowl, what is that?" Locke says, "it's for later." Now either he was planning on conking Boone on the head, and he'd need the salve. Or, he was planning on sending Boone on a "Locke journey". I personally think it was the latter. It was used to speed him on his way.


LostInWilderness says:...Having Aaron safe won't stop this process, because everyone still thinks the "others" are coming. Danielle's kidnapping of Aaron just enforces her words about that...

Leuthen says:Absolutely. We have to remember to think of this hatch exploration thing in the timeline of the characters, not the viewers. As far as the characters are concerned, the Others are still coming.You know, I think I agree with RaMatheron on this one. Once the hatch crew are made aware of Danielle's lies, I'm not sure they're going to believe the "Others" are coming. I'm really looking forward to next seasons resolution to this problem.


Pirate328 says:Obvioiusly Jack has a hidden liking towards Locke. After not letting go of course. He could have. He was afraid. Jack has a natural liking towards everything i believe... even the bad...I'm sure this is true. But don't forget, Jack has admitted he has a hard time letting go. Both figuratively and literally!

[athywithak]

I think we are discounting something when discussing the possible crew for hatch exploration: what will Hurley say about the numbers, and how will each person take that info?

Like Locke, Hurley may sound a bit crazy. How long before everyone realizes they are on a STRANGE island where the crazy is correct?

Locke - won't believe the numbers are bad, but will believe Hurley IF he takes time to listen

what do you think about how Jack and Kate will take Hurley's info? Will Hurley tell the whole tale?

><
Another point: like the Boone hallucination (I think it was the paste) and the "cause" of Boone's death (willing sacrifice, but Locke shoulda told Jack he didn't fall off a cliff), who lit the fire on the beach is still unknown. I think DR did think the others were there, and she didn't light the fire, and the others are real enough, but there were no footprints because the others left by boat.

Even given the info about DR and Aaron, I think it would be prudent for our 815 folks to assume the others are still a threat (unless they get info from the raft, which I agree is unlikely to occur too soon). I expect Charlie is the one who will NOT believe in the others, which is funny cause he may be one of the few to have seen them (but forgotten? how odd! - "they only wanted Claire").

This is not even considering what's written in the Diary, cause we dunno if that should count or not.

-Kw/K

[Hodgepodge]

athywithak says:I think we are discounting something when discussing the possible crew for hatch exploration: what will Hurley say about the numbers, and how will each person take that info?

Like Locke, Hurley may sound a bit crazy. How long before everyone realizes they are on a STRANGE island where the crazy is correct?

Locke - won't believe the numbers are bad, but will believe Hurley IF he takes time to listen

what do you think about how Jack and Kate will take Hurley's info? Will Hurley tell the whole tale?...This is excellent point Athywithak! And remembering that scene again, the numbers should be intact.

The only way Hurley is going to get his point across, is for Sayid to be there, and remember Danielle's maps, and the equation he was trying to figure out. But without Sayid's interdiction, and a couple of Hurley's "Dude's", Jack and Locke won't hear anything coming out of his mouth.

[Brian]

Zambini,
Remember the scene right before the raft launching when Sawyer exposed her to everyone, to keep her from getting his spot?

Nope, I must have missed that. Thanks for pointing it out. I actually discussed that with my wife before saying it, I couldn't really remember myself. She wasn't sure either but said something along the line of what you did. I stand corrected. Thanks! :)

[Brian]

athywithak,
Like Locke, Hurley may sound a bit crazy. How long before everyone realizes they are on a STRANGE island where the crazy is correct?

The sad part is, no one is likely to listen to Hurley any more than they are Locke which leads me to......
Locke - won't believe the numbers are bad, but will believe Hurley IF he takes time to listen
I'm with you on this one. I think Locke has enough presence of mind to at least listen to Hurley and his explanation of the numbers. If Sayid still has Dani's maps, then that's another plus for Hurley convincing Locke. However, even if Locke does listen to Hurley, and even believes his story (he really doesn't have any reason not to) then the best Hurley could hope for is Locke being a little more cautious. Maybe Locke would question his actions towards the hatch a little. Then again, I still remember Locke sitting there, obviously confused about the hatch, when the light comes on. That's going to be a very powerful motivator for Locke regardless of whether he believes Hurley about the numbers on the hatch. It's gonna be kinda hard for Locke to completely ignore the numbers since they're right there on the hatch.........or at least they were until the door got blown off.

Interesting point though.

[Brian]

Hodge,

I posted a little early, but, yeah - what you said! :)

[LostInWilderness]

Leuthan, I believe you subtly trying to increase you post count. I won't use the more colloquial term. ;)

What will happen when Hurley tells Jack, Locke and Kate about the numbers? Jack, the rationalizer, will be unmoved. Locke the devoted will be unmoved. Kate will be moved, but unable to move the others. Nothing different will happen.

[Brian]

LIW,
I believe you subtly trying to increase you post count. I won't use the more colloquial term.

:) Colloquial or not, that's not something that matters much to me, especially when it comes to this board. I could care less. You should know this by now but I appreciate the humor! :) Trying hard to backtrack from that statement and failing miserably! :)

Anyway,
What will happen when Hurley tells Jack, Locke and Kate about the numbers?

That's a very good question, actually. However, the question shouldn't be what will happen as much as the question should be, will any of them believe Hurley?

We, as viewers, have seen the backstory relating to the numbers. Those (Jack, Locke and Kate), as characters, have not. I would like to think that Locke and Jack would listen to Hurley and his entire story as it relates to the numbers. That's why spooky titled them the Destiny Twins and I adopted it with his permission. Will it happen? I don't know, I'd like to think they would.
Jack, the rationalizer, will be unmoved.
Perhaps. Jack's better than that, though, IMHO. I think he'll at least listen whether he believes it or not.
Locke the devoted will be unmoved.
Think so? Given Locke's connection with the island, I think he'll be more inclined than Jack to appreciate Hurley's story/words, if you will. Locke, and also Jack, aren't stupid. They are cognizant enough to at least listen, at least I hope so! :)

I'd like to see a scene where Hurley lays everything out, everything about the numbers. Where he learned them from, what his experience about the numbers brought him, etc. I think both Jack and Locke would listen. Whether they'd be moved or not, I don't honestly know. I think Locke would take the numbers into consideration more than Jack. Why? Because Locke wants to believe whereas Jack needs to believe. I know that's confusing. Locke wants to believe that everything on the island has a purpose whereas Jack needs to be reassured, if that makes any sense.
Kate will be moved, but unable to move the others.
Well, Kate is her own creature unto herself, really. She comes across as someone who's almost too willing to atone for past sins where Jack and Locke are still finding their way, so to speak. Kate's all too willing to go with Jack at this point, IMHO. I'll agree with you that she's most likely unable to move the others at this point. That's something that's seemingly being relegated to Jack and Locke at this point. Kate doesn't have a lot of influence, at this point, and time will tell.

[LostInWilderness]

I agree with everything you said Leuthan. Even about the post count. ;) Jack and Locke will listen intently, then do what they want. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Kate won't move them either, even if she takes Hurley's side (which is kind of irrelevant since that hatch is open.)

[Brian]

LIW,
I agree with everything you said Leuthan.

Well that's a first! :) I'll have to mark my calendar! :lol
Jack and Locke will listen intently, then do what they want.
Don't they always? I mean, they are the destiny twins after all. I hope they'll listen to Hurley when/if he brings up the numbers and act accordingly. At the least, I hope they'll be more cautious when entering the hatch since we seem to be in agreement that someone will be entering it. I just hope that Hurley's message about the numbers, and his experience with them, resonates with at least one of the destiny twins.

Time will tell, I suppose.

[LostInWilderness]

Leuthen writes:Well that's a first! :) I'll have to mark my calendar! :lol
I think it is! Don't get used to it. ;)

[athywithak]

Haven't the numbers played a significant role in Kate's life? She mentioned the 23-connection to Hurley, wasn't there also the number of the safe deposit box? She might be the one to hear Hurley (as opposed to listen) although I don't expect her to verbally support him.

Locke will probably put a positive spin on the numbers, trying to make Hurley see they are GOOD, just like Locke thinks being stranded on the island is GOOD. (which it may be)

For me, when Locke ignored Hurley's shouts, he lost my undying faith. If he doesn't even listen to the numbers story, my faith will wither more.

I don't know if it was in this thread, but I think all the major posters were present when it was recently discussed that Hurley began chanting the numbers as they were leaving the Black Rock. Some say it might mean the Hatch Four have been exposed to the sickness which DR says struck her people in the Dark Territory, others say it is just a reaction to stress (after all, Hurley may have been IN that hospital with Lenny). If Locke doesn't even listen to Hurley, or Hurley declines yet again to share important info with his fellow survivors, then I shall begin to think they have the sickness after all.

Kw/k

[Hodgepodge]

athywithak says:Haven't the numbers played a significant role in Kate's life? She mentioned the 23-connection to Hurley, wasn't there also the number of the safe deposit box? She might be the one to hear Hurley (as opposed to listen) although I don't expect her to verbally support him...What a great memory Athywithak! I'd forgotten about the safety deposit box. And she did admit to the $23,000 reward offered for her capture.


athywithak also says:...For me, when Locke ignored Hurley's shouts, he lost my undying faith. If he doesn't even listen to the numbers story, my faith will wither more...I think everybody in this thread agrees there was no way Locke wasn't going to blow that hatch.

[Zambini Stardust]

Set 1: 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42 ... the infamous numbers.

Set 2: Kate, Jack, Locke, Hurley ... the Hatchers.

Hurley screamed DON'T OPEN THE HATCH, THE NUMBERS ARE BAD! Difficult to imagine that now the hatch is blown, Hurley will suddenly forget all about the numbers, and also no one else will bother to ask, "Say, Hurley, what was all that nonsense about the numbers being bad?" So let us state for this discussion that the numbers WILL in fact be discussed before any of the Hatchers go down.

The next obvious question has already been raised...will anyone listen to what Hurley has to say? My answer...how can they not? If you take the intersection of Set 1 and Set 2 (minus Hurley for obvious reasons), how many values do you find? Here's my short list...

All: 8, 15 (flight 815)
All: 16 (they all know the French distress signal ran for 16 years)
Kate: 23 ($23,000 reward)
Jack: 23 (wasn't he sitting in row 23 in the plane?)
Locke: 4 (in the walkabout office: "I've lived with this condition for 4 years!")
Locke: 8 (his sister died when she was 8 years old)
Kate: 8, 15 (was her safety deposit box number 815 or 855?)

I'll bet there are others. Point is, when Hurley reads off the list of numbers, tells them he won the lottery with those numbers, then tells them all the bad things that have happened to people around him since winning the lottery, they will all start thinking hmmm I wonder if any of those numbers mean anything to me. OMIGOSH, they do!

Now, when that realization happens, how will Hurley's compadres react? Again, my prediction...

Kate: guys, this is too weird, we need to be careful here (indecisive)
Locke: don't you see, the island is using those numbers to bring all of us here for a reason (decisive in favor of exploring the hatch)
Jack: the numbers mean nothing, but we're not going down that hole (decisive against exploring the hatch, because of the numbers but he's too proud to admit it's because of the numbers)

Any other ideas?

[Hodgepodge]

Zambini Stardust says:...Now, when that realization happens, how will Hurley's compadres react? Again, my prediction...

Kate: guys, this is too weird, we need to be careful here (indecisive)
Locke: don't you see, the island is using those numbers to bring all of us here for a reason (decisive in favor of exploring the hatch)
Jack: the numbers mean nothing, but we're not going down that hole (decisive against exploring the hatch, because of the numbers but he's too proud to admit it's because of the numbers)

Any other ideas?ZS, I'm willing to bet this is the exact dialog!

[Brian]

ETA - Oops

[Brian]

athywithak,
Locke will probably put a positive spin on the numbers, trying to make Hurley see they are GOOD, just like Locke thinks being stranded on the island is GOOD. (which it may be)
Well, that has pretty much been his M.O. during season 1. He tries to put everything in a postive light, as much as it can be. What I'd like to see happen is Locke divulging his account of how the numbers have shown up in his own life prior to the crash, I mean beyond seat numbers and such.
For me, when Locke ignored Hurley's shouts, he lost my undying faith. If he doesn't even listen to the numbers story, my faith will wither more.
Well, we all view this show with our own judgements in mind. That said, I appreciate your view. In a small way, I agree with you. However, my agreement stems from how TPTB portrayed that scene. They made Locke look out of character, in a way. Locke is usually one to discuss things even in the heat of the moment. The way the scene played out with Locke suddenly lighting the fuse and then tackling Hurley as Hurley was trying to put out the fuse just seemed off kilter to me. That didn't seem like something Locke would do. It's almost as if the scene felt pushed or forced like TPTB had to have it happen rapidly, the opening of the hatch that is. Locke's my favorite character and I'd like to see Hurley and him discuss the numbers before any hatch exploration occurs. Then again, in the minds of the hatch team, there isn't really a lot of time for discussion at this point.
but I think all the major posters were present when it was recently discussed that Hurley began chanting the numbers as they were leaving the Black Rock.
Yeah, I remember that. It caught Kate's attention if I'm not mistaken. It may be a way he deals with stress. After all, he did just witness someone getting blown to smithereens in front of his eyes. He might somehow think that's just his bad luck following him yet again and affecting those around him. Who knows?
If Locke doesn't even listen to Hurley, or Hurley declines yet again to share important info with his fellow survivors, then I shall begin to think they have the sickness after all.
I think Locke already has his own sickness and it stems from the island itself, not necessarily what Danielle was talking about. Then again, that's just my convoluted view. A lot of folks around here already think Locke's completely insane so why not go with it? :)

Seriously though, I still don't know what to make of the sickness that Danielle mentioned. It doesn't seem to be too heavily mentioned/discussed among the castaways so I'm thinking it's possibly something to be downplayed. I don't know. Then again, only Sayid has spent any real length of time with Danielle so possibly that's why, it isn't being discussed that is. If the sickness is something that's going to be a force, I see it coming up very soon in Season 2. If TPTB continue to downplay it or have it mentioned only in passing, then I'll still be skeptical about its validity.

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen says:...However, my agreement stems from how TPTB portrayed that scene. They made Locke look out of character, in a way. Locke is usually one to discuss things even in the heat of the moment. The way the scene played out with Locke suddenly lighting the fuse and then tackling Hurley as Hurley was trying to put out the fuse just seemed off kilter to me. That didn't seem like something Locke would do. It's almost as if the scene felt pushed or forced like TPTB had to have it happen rapidly, the opening of the hatch that is...Leuthen, this is exactly how Locke has been acting since he found the hatch. Remember the scene from Deus Ex Machina, when the trebuchet fails? Locke angerily says. "This was supposed to work. This was supposed to work!" Prior to this incident, had we ever seen Locke angry? I personally think TPTB have portrayed him perfectly. Just like someone pocessesed.


Leuthen also says:...Seriously though, I still don't know what to make of the sickness that Danielle mentioned. It doesn't seem to be too heavily mentioned/discussed among the castaways so I'm thinking it's possibly something to be downplayed. I don't know. Then again, only Sayid has spent any real length of time with Danielle so possibly that's why, it isn't being discussed that is. If the sickness is something that's going to be a force, I see it coming up very soon in Season 2. If TPTB continue to downplay it or have it mentioned only in passing, then I'll still be skeptical about its validity.We've been discussing this since Solitary first aired. And like you, I don't know what to make of this so-called illness. I don't know if it's mental or physical. I just don't know what to make of it.

But, since the "dynamite team" has been to the "Black Rock", and according to Danielle that's when her science team got the illness. "We were coming back from the Black Rock. It was them. They were the carriers." Maybe the "dynamite team" will start showing signs in season two.

[Brian]

Hodge,
this is exactly how Locke has been acting since he found the hatch. Remember the scene from Deus Ex Machina, when the trebuchet fails? Locke angerily says. "This was supposed to work. This was supposed to work!" Prior to this incident, had we ever seen Locke angry? I personally think TPTB have portrayed him perfectly. Just like someone pocessesed.

Yeah, I can see your point there. That entire hatch scene at the end of Exodus just didn't feel right for some reason. I kinda let everything else slide but that one scene between Locke and Hurley, well, I guess I just didn't like it. Not for the scene, but for it's portrayal. Hurley's never really acted out like he did there either. I half expected to come up to the hatch, see the numbers, and stand there mystified saying, "Uh guys, the numbers. Guys, GUYS!" and then Locke tackling him to keep him from getting hurt. Don't get me wrong, I understand why Hurley ran and tried to put out the fuse, I just didn't expect him to if that makes any sense.

I'll agree that Locke's actions have gotten a little, uhm....., shall we say hostile since both the trebuchet incident and Boone's demise. The latter even sent him to question the hatch/island directly. Granted, not exactly the actions of a sane, stable person, I'll give you that. But, that's part of the mystery that is Locke, IMO. That's why I like his character.

[Brian]

athywithak, Zambini, and others who mentioned the numbers on the hatch. Here's a link to a site that does a very comprehensive job of how the numbers relate to each of the castaways. Some may have seen it already, I just found it last night and haven't even gotten past 4 yet.

thenumbers.greatestjournal.com/ (http://thenumbers.greatestjournal.com/)

Yes, I know who created the site and that has nothing to do with why I'm linking it. I just found it interesting.

[athywithak]

Thanks, Leuthen - I'll be checking up on / following up on details that can help us guess how the Hatch Four will react to the numbers. It's the one thing in LostWorld I've sorta saved for summer - those numbers make my head hurt!

Meanwhile, I was struck upon viewing Walkabout for the third time last night when Locke said (in the coffee room at work playing a game) good leaders have patience. That is exactly what he seems to be losing in regard to the opening of the hatch.

Do ya'll think Jack has patience? (no pun intended)

-Kw/K
edited cause the spell check wasn't working

[thereaintnostinkingmonster]

Jack has zero trust in locke as evidenced by his asking kate to get his back … before that, kate was the person that jack had expressed the least trust in.

As for locke, he is interested in one thing … his ability to walk. Because of his vision, he knew something bad was going to happen to boone or he is not as well connected with the island as he thinks (self-absorbed).

Whether locke is evil or tragic … imo, he WAS tragic. Now, as a formerly tragic person, he is like the nerd who has ascended to power. I do not believe that he is using his power for good.

The Locke/jack division of the camp it too obvious. Moreover, locke is not a leader. He is a Rambo who acts unilaterally. I see the division between sayid and jack. They already disagreed about opening the hatch. Also, sayid is a leader. I can think of no other leaders in the group. Btw, jack is a leader. Imo, people are just saying he is a boss because he is not a great leader.

[athywithak]

thereaintnostinkingmonster, can you give us a little more on the difference between a boss, leader, great leader in your book?

I can't imagine Jack n Sayid splitting, because both often think of others before self. They'd have to have a huge disagreement about something very very serious for them to part ways. What do you think that would be?

K

[Leafy]

Here's a thought - Locke knows more about the numbers than he lets on. When Hurley said not to open the hatch because the "numbers are bad," Locke hurried the operation because he was afraid if word got out about the numbers, the others wouldn't agree to open the hatch. Maybe the numbers are bad for some people and, if not good, at least not "bad", for others. The numbers might have some mystic connotation to Locke that hasn't been revealed yet.

[acovell]

I really don't think Locke knows anything about the numbers. He was just so anxious to get the hatch open, he didn't want anything or anyone to slow things down.

[thereaintnostinkingmonster]

thereaintnostinkingmonster, can you give us a little more on the difference between a boss, leader, great leader in your book?

Good question with no definitive answer … Jack leads people, Locke leads one individual at a time. People look to and see jack as a leader. people look to locke as a variety of thing … hunter, crazy man, warrior (yes, ala Rambo, but not a general-type (imo, that is sayid)), lone wolf (has he participated in any of the group activities?), etc.


I can't imagine Jack n Sayid splitting, because both often think of others before self. They'd have to have a huge disagreement about something very very serious for them to part ways. What do you think that would be?



In addition to my view that sayid is the only other person who has shown leadership or been viewed as a leader, it also presents an opportunity for the writers to do something generally unexpected. Jack v. locke camps is too predictable based on the final episode. Btw, we already caught the start of a rift with jack and sayid when they disagreed on whether the hatch should be opened.

I will say that, if locke can present himself as a mystic guru (ala jim jones) and persuasively articulate his case, he could lead. I just do not see the group dividing along those lines. The division point will be the hatch or how to deal with the “others”.

[Celtic Ceilidh]

I agree with acovell that Locke most likely has no idea about the numbers. Danielle is the only person that we know of that Hurley's mentioned them to. And I don't recall that Locke spent much time studying Danielle's papers. Even if he had noticed the numbers on the side of the hatch, he wouldn't have had a reason to connect them with anything else.

[Hodgepodge]

thereaintnostinkingmonster says:Good question with no definitive answer … Jack leads people, Locke leads one individual at a time. People look to and see jack as a leader. people look to locke as a variety of thing … hunter, crazy man, warrior (yes, ala Rambo, but not a general-type (imo, that is sayid)), lone wolf (has he participated in any of the group activities?), etc...I definitely agree that the survivors look to Jack to lead. Even Locke has pointed that out in White Rabbit. This relationship reminds me of an indian tribe. You have the chief who is the tribal leader. But in some instances you have what's called a medicine man. And that sure sounds like Locke. And in some tribes, the medicine man carries more weight than the chief.


thereaintnostinkingmonster also says:...In addition to my view that sayid is the only other person who has shown leadership or been viewed as a leader, it also presents an opportunity for the writers to do something generally unexpected. Jack v. locke camps is too predictable based on the final episode. Btw, we already caught the start of a rift with jack and sayid when they disagreed on whether the hatch should be opened...You know, I don't see a split amongst our survivors. No more of a split than what we have right now. Beach and cave dwellers. And that may've ended with everyone moving to the cave encampment.

When someone mentions Locke vs. Sayid. I always think about the conversation between Locke and Boone in Hearts and Minds. Boone is upset that Sayid and Shannon are becoming an item. Locke tells him, "he's very competent. We don't want to make an enemy of him. We're going to want him on our side." This has always troubled me. What did/does Locke have in store for Sayid.

But Sayid can see right through him. He's not impressed with his Shaman like abilities. Remember the scene from The Greater Good. Locke takes Sayid to the Beechcraft. Sayid mentions something about the hatch. Locke says, "oh, Boone must've been talking about the planes hatch." Then at the end of the episode, after Shannon has made an attempt on Locke's life, he thanks Sayid for saving his life. "I did it because I sense you might be our best hope of surviving here. But I don't forgive what you did. And I certainly don't trust you. And now, you're going to take me to the hatch." "Hatch? I already showed you the. . ." Locke, no more lies."

[Brian]

Well said Hodge! I like your indian tribal leader versus shaman analogy. I think that sums it up quite well.

Also, I posed this question some time ago and no one ever responded so I'll do so here again.

This is possibly one of those, things that probably don't mean anything but we notice anyway because we pick to show apart, but, has anyone else wondered why Locke is the only one on the island who is referred to by his last name? There was Arzt but he wasn't one of the main 14 (now 13). Yeah, there's an occassional John thrown in there from time to time but primarily on the island, he's almost always referred to as just Locke.

I mean we have Walter "Walt" Lloyd, Hugo "Hurley" Reyes, Shannon Rutherford, James "Sawyer" Ford, Sun Kwon, Jin Kwon, Kate Ryan, Boone Carlisle, Michael Dawson, Claire Littleton, Jack Shepard, Charlie Pace, Sayid Jarrah, and John Locke. Now, I think "Walt" and "Hurley" are nicknames so they don't really count. Also, "Sawyer" isn't even his real name so I'm not counting it either.

I only ask because I'm curious if I'm the only one who's noticed this and does anyone think there's any significance to it?

[Leafy]

Leuthen I have noticed that about the names. (I didn't know Sayid's name had been mentioned.)

I think Locke is known by his last name because he is not really a part of the group. He hasn't made an effort to be "one of the gang," and doesn't seem to mind being an outsider. Other than that .... I haven't a clue.

[Brian]

Leafy,
I didn't know Sayid's name had been mentioned.
To be honest with you, I don't know if it has or not. I have to admit that I got that list from the official site for LOST where they list the cast and crew. I was checking it to make sure I was right about the names as far as the original 14 were concerned.
He hasn't made an effort to be "one of the gang," and doesn't seem to mind being an outsider.
Well that's certainly the truth! :) I think Locke enjoys his role amongst the castaways. That is, a sort of "outsider" as you mentioned. I think Locke is one of those who works best when left alone. To say Locke's not a conformist is putting it lightly to say the least. Actually, I prefer him that way and I'm sure all of those who think his elevator doesn't go all the way to the top agree. Interesting thought though. Thanks! :)

[Zambini Stardust]

Also Locke is definitely the oldest main survivor at this point, since Rose isn't featured. He is probably at least 10 years older than Jack, Sawyer, Michael, Sayid, and Jin. Calling him by his last name may simply be a sign of age respect.

It is true that he is an outsider, and that is another reason people use his last name rather than being on a first-name basis with him. Note Boone was calling him John by the time Boone died. Also note Jack has referred to him by his first name on a few occassions. Yet another sign of the impending alliance between the destiny twins? Sort of like Sawyer having nicknames for everyone except Michael, whom he has taken to calling "Mike," a real name. I expect to see those two also form a bond, along with Jin.

[Hodgepodge]

Zambini Stardust says: Also Locke is definitely the oldest main survivor at this point, since Rose isn't featured. He is probably at least 10 years older than Jack, Sawyer, Michael, Sayid, and Jin. Calling him by his last name may simply be a sign of age respect...ZS, this was my thought as well.

I also looked back through the transcripts of The Greater Good. I thought maybe Sayid's last name may've been used, but I didn't see it.

[LostInWilderness]

Hodge writes:But Sayid can see right through [Locke].
I have to disagree with that. Sayid is competent enough to challenge Locke, but Locke ensnared him beautifully. I love the way Locke manipulated Sayid's interogation. I think Locke planned to tell Sayid about the hatch, but he wanted Sayid to think he got it out of him.

[Brian]

LIW,
I think Locke planned to tell Sayid about the hatch, but he wanted Sayid to think he got it out of him.

I've always believed that Locke was the one in control during that discussion even though it may not have come across that way for some. I'm with you. I think Locke intended all along to "recruit" Sayid for the hatch project but was just waiting for the right time to do so. I don't think Sayid can see through Locke, nor vice versa, but I do believe they have each others mutual respect, unlike Locke and Jack's relationship.

[HawaiiHeaven]

I agree that Locke is called by his last name because he holds himself above and aloof from the group and is not on friendly, familiar, casual terms with the rest of the Castaways as the others are with each other.

Regarding Sayid's name, it was mentioned that his name is Sayid Jarah, and this was definitely a play on names by the writers to lead us initially to suspect him as a stereotype terrorist: One of the 9/11 hijackers was named Ziad Jarah. Hence. Sayid Jarah. Then the writers developed Sayid into exactly what we were NOT expecting- a very strong, reliable, helpful, dependable, trustworthy, interesting and likable guy.

I also think that Sayid does NOT feel very comfortable with Locke because of his own doubts on what really happened to Boone and why, though he does respect Locke in some way.

It has been mentioned a while back that Sayid will emerge as the middle ground between the extremes of Locke and Jack and I agree with that. Jack has been too willing to jump at every turn into danger, control every situation and constantly prove himself as a leader. The second viewing of "Walkabout" has shown me that Locke was talking about destiny even before the crash, and was very poor at judging interpersonal relationships and tended to exagerate and twist things in his mind. I wrote about Locke on another thread and consider him a very interesting psychological case with psychic abilities that will be a Wild Card in the next season playing against Jack's extreme egomaniacal need for control.

[Hodgepodge]

HawaiiHeaven says:...Regarding Sayid's name, it was mentioned that his name is Sayid Jarah, and this was definitely a play on names by the writers to lead us initially to suspect him as a stereotype terrorist: One of the 9/11 hijackers was named Ziad Jarah. Hence. Sayid Jarah. Then the writers developed Sayid into exactly what we were NOT expecting- a very strong, reliable, helpful, dependable, trustworthy, interesting and likable guy...HH, are you recalling his last name from an episode? Or from the cast bios?

But I definitely agree. From the beginning Sayid was portrayed as a terrorist. When Sawyer pointed him out as being detained at the airport, everyone suspected the same. Even his first encounter with Hurley pointed the viewers to that fact. In Pilot (Part 2), Hurley finds out the Sayid fought in the Gulf War. "No way. I have a buddy who fought over there. He was in the 104th Airborne. What were you, Air force, Army?" "The Republican Guard." I still smile at that scene!

[athywithak]

On names:

I think Locke is known by his last name because he is not really a part of the group. He hasn't made an effort to be "one of the gang," and doesn't seem to mind being an outsider.

Yes, and this is why Sawyer is called by what they know as his last name. By the way, I think Kate's real last name isn't Ryan, but that's another thread....

On Sayid/Locke/Jack:

Sayid's comment about Locke being their best chance for survival sums him up: he's a pragmatist. Sayid is all about getting things done. He steps up to lead people (for example, to the caves in Exodus) when someone has to do it. He'll step up to confront Jack or Locke if someone has to, when either get out of hand. He doesn't need to save people, like Jack, or confirm he has a special destiny, like Locke.

His relationship with Shannon is another sign of his pragmatism. Nadia is his heart and his dream and he allowed himself to be used by the government in part because he wanted to see her again, but now that he's on the island, he's living the life he's been dealt, and forming a new bond is part of that acceptance of where he is, for now.

I agree that Locke had a good handle on the interrogation, but it remains to be seen if Sayid really bought into it. People who focus on the pragmatic and look reality in the face are often hard to fool - liars tend to believe liars a lot faster. Has Sayid ever told a lie? Maybe keeping the French transmission info from the rest of the group - that was his idea, wasn't it? Pragmatic, though.

K
can't seem to get that spell check to work, sorry!

[HawaiiHeaven]

Hodgepodge- I am not sure, but I think I heard Sayid's name mentioned on the show and did not read it, but, again, I am not sure. For sure, the character of Sayid and how he breaks stereotypes was very clever of the writers.

Athywhithak- I agree that Sayid is a pragmatist. He is the center between the extremes of Jack and Locke. But, I believe that the Island sometimes requires the qualities of Jack and sometimes of Locke, and it will be interesting to see if Locke and Jack can use their various "gifts", differing philosophies and personalities in the right way, that will either be for the good or for the bad, for themselves and for everyone else. One thing that bothers me about Sayid, is that in the writers' attempt to surprise us with Sayid being a strong level-headed dependable character, they made him the only character almost too good, without any flaws at all, and flaws are what makes the characters realistic and interesting...

[Hodgepodge]

athywithak says:...Sayid's comment about Locke being their best chance for survival sums him up: he's a pragmatist. Sayid is all about getting things done. He steps up to lead people (for example, to the caves in Exodus) when someone has to do it. He'll step up to confront Jack or Locke if someone has to, when either get out of hand. He doesn't need to save people, like Jack, or confirm he has a special destiny, like Locke.I didn't think I'd ever hear myself say this, but Sayid would probably make a better leader. I bet because of his military background, things would look different. Take for instance the camp security. After the first encounter with the "thing in the jungle", he would've setup guard posts. The island would've been scouted and mapped.


athywithak also says:His relationship with Shannon is another sign of his pragmatism. Nadia is his heart and his dream and he allowed himself to be used by the government in part because he wanted to see her again, but now that he's on the island, he's living the life he's been dealt, and forming a new bond is part of that acceptance of where he is, for now...Plus, he's hornier than a man who's been in prison. ;)

[athywithak]

Well, he used to live in a country where fun is frowned upon.;)

[spooky]

Leuthen wrote:
has anyone else wondered why Locke is the only one on the island who is referred to by his last name?
Leuthen, I think there are several reasons. One could be that there are sort of pre- and post-island identities, so he essentially has a “new” name on the island. Like others have mentioned it separates Locke from the others. To me it seems like a way of creating emotional distance, making him less human in a way (like Arzt). It sounds military to call him by his last name (or like a player on a sports team). I think it was to emphasize his historical namesake, too (like Rousseau). Another reason I think they were mostly using his last name was to keep the audience from thinking too much about Jack and John having names that make them sound like brothers (and that have the same meaning, “God is gracious”). It’s interesting that Jack has almost always called him John. It’s understandable that you’d call someone by their more intimate name after they saved your life. He called him John many times in the last few episodes, almost in every sentence in their confrontation scene (like a taunt?). At the end, though, he says, we’re going to have a Locke problem” -- distancing him again, putting him back into a more inhuman, opponent category.

[HawaiiHeaven]

Besides Sayid, between Jack and Locke lies Michael. It cannot be denied that building a raft was a very good idea and was pulled off with smarts and strong leadership by Michael. Just as the writers broke TV stereotypes with Sayid, they Broke stereotypes with Michael and Walt. The writers could so easily have fallen into the formula trap of Brady-like Dad and little blond adorable girl Dakota Fanning Look-a-like, or Full House-type Dad with little blond McCaulay Culkin Look-a-like Boy. Michael and Walt have received criticism here, but that is because they are characters who are very new to Network TV- a Black Man and his son, played very realistically (not adorably) by very good actors. All of the characters are fresh and new which is what makes the show SO GOOD. Locke is one of the most fascinating characters to come to TV in many many years.

[Zambini Stardust]

It cannot be denied that building a raft was a very good idea

Building a raft when you have no map, no destination, no idea where you are, might not be a good idea. I don't mean to disparage Michael, I think he is a strong, intelligent person. But the whole raft idea is wacky. Let's jump off this blind cliff and figure out where we're going on the way down. The raft consumed a lot of resources - time, energy, people, materials, food - that might have served a better purpose on the island.

Even if they did get found by friendlies (which we know they didn't) how would they tell the rescuers how to find the island?

[allisnotlost]

No need to tell friendly recuers how to look for the island, just take the point they met up at and span out a 15-20 mile radius from it. No big big deal there.

Although I do think the raft idea was risky, (too risky for a young boy to be on) it was still a good idea. Better than just waiting and hoping after forty days on the island.

[Hodgepodge]

HawaiiHeaven says:Besides Sayid, between Jack and Locke lies Michael. It cannot be denied that building a raft was a very good idea and was pulled off with smarts and strong leadership by Michael. Just as the writers broke TV stereotypes with Sayid, they Broke stereotypes with Michael and Walt. The writers could so easily have fallen into the formula trap of Brady-like Dad and little blond adorable girl Dakota Fanning Look-a-like, or Full House-type Dad with little blond McCaulay Culkin Look-a-like Boy. Michael and Walt have received criticism here, but that is because they are characters who are very new to Network TV- a Black Man and his son, played very realistically (not adorably) by very good actors...I've come to accept the idea of the raft. Not necessarily as a good idea, but because I understand the reasoning behind it.

But HH, I agree with your assessment of Michael and Walt. TPTB definitely broke television stereotypes. You don't know how often I've seen sports programs that do interviews with athletes. 'Growing up in the inner-city of nowhere, USA. His mother working two jobs just to put food on the table. The father left the family before he was born.' And white America thinking that's the way black America lives.

Here we have Michael, who's apparently worked hard all of his life. Never wanting to give up his rights to his son. Forced, by a conniving *itch of a girlfriend, to do so.

Walt, who's been brought up in different cities of the World. By affluent parents. Probably private schools. Not wanting for anything. Looses his mother to illness. Abandoned by a "dad" who didn't want him in the first place. Thrown together with this man, who isn't very good at parenting.

Boy, this could've been a whole different series. And from what I know now, I'd want to watch. My hats off to TPTB!

[athywithak]

Personality-wise, Michael is in the middle, but when it comes to loyalties, he's with Jack.

[Celtic Ceilidh]

I agree, athywhithak. I would very surprised if it came down to choosing sides that Michael would pick Locke over Jack.

[Brian]

Celtic, and thereby, athywithak,
I would very surprised if it came down to choosing sides that Michael would pick Locke over Jack.

Like you, I would be surprised to see Michael choose sides with Locke over Jack, however, the determining factor there isn't necessarily Michael, it's Walt. Walt's already shown signs of leaning toward Locke and that would help to fuel the fire in their relationship, Walt's and Michael's that is. When Locke asked Walt why he burned the raft, Walt responded, "Because I'm tired of moving." or something akin. Walt, like Locke, has found at least some sort of solace in/on the island.

I think Walt and Locke realize the same thing, that is, somehow, the island is the key to their future whether they understand it completely or not.

[thereaintnostinkingmonster]

again, people seem to readily assume that it will be locke v. jack. i agree with previous posters, including me, that it will not be locke v. jack. maybe locke will play a manipulative role in creating the division, but, as most people agree, he is not a leader. the shaman analogy is apt.

[acovell]

again, people seem to readily assume that it will be locke v. jack. i agree with previous posters, including me, that it will not be locke v. jack. maybe locke will play a manipulative role in creating the division, but, as most people agree, he is not a leader. the shaman analogy is apt.

I tend to agree. I don't think Locke wants to be the leader because it would hold him back. I think he's been the responsible type all his life. The island has given him the opportunity to change and he's taken it. He can't be tied down taking care of everyone else's needs at the expense of his own.

I'm not even sure there will be a split that hasn't already occurred. They were already split into two "camps" (literally) with some people living in the caves and others on the beach. The question I have is not who will be the leader of each faction, but why would they split into factions in the first place. Religion versus Science? Destiny versus Random Selection? That just doesn't make sense to me. Those issues are important to Locke, and maybe even to Jack, but not to anyone else, at least not that I've seen thus far, and even if they were important issues, why would it cause them to split up into opposing groups? People who want to stay on the island versus people who want to leave? The only one who wants to stay is Locke. Not much of a faction there.

If someone can enlighten me with a good reason why an actual split would occur, I'd like to hear it.

[HawaiiHeaven]

Zambini said-
Building a raft when you have no map, no destination, no idea where you are, might not be a good idea. I don't mean to disparage Michael, I think he is a strong, intelligent person. But the whole raft idea is wacky. Let's jump off this blind cliff and figure out where we're going on the way down. The raft consumed a lot of resources - time, energy, people, materials, food - that might have served a better purpose on the island.

True, but only on an ordinary island without strange occurances, beasts and with a chance of being rescued, which is not this Island. Also, theoretically, after a week at sea with no results and no shipping lane, they could head back to the Island.

Acovell-
I agree with many here that a split would not necessarily have Locke as a leader, but more of an outsider who either helps or hinders depending on the scenario. He seems to like having one follower who he can mentor and control. Hurley might have been a candidate for this because he may believe in fate due to the Numbers, but Locke put the brakes on this by ignoring Hurley's pleas and blowing the hatch without even listening to Hurley. He could even join Danielle or the Others, or could represent himself to some people as though he had knowledge of the Others, which would lead to a controversy of whether or not to believe him. Regarding your question of what would cause a split, the most obvious one would be a disagreement of whether there was still or ever was a threat from the "others", with some still wanting to hide and some not. Remember, Charlie could convince some people that Danielle is simply crazy and made the whole danger up. Another controversy could arise around exploring the hatch- some would argue about what good there could possibly be down that hole.

[acovell]

I agree with many here that a split would not necessarily have Locke as a leader, but more of an outsider who either helps or hinders depending on the scenario. He could even join Danielle or the Others, or could represent himself to some people as though he had knowledge of the Others, which would lead to a controversy of whether or not to believe him. Regarding your question of what would cause a split, the most obvious one would be a disagreement of whether there was still or ever was a threat from the "others", with some still wanting to hide and some not. Remember, Charlie could convince some people that Danielle is simply crazy and made the whole danger up. Another controversy could arise around exploring the hatch- some would argue about what good there could possibly be down that hole.

I see your point, but arguments and controversy do not a split make. I suppose Locke could go to the dark side by joining the Others, but why would that cause the group to split? Charlie may convince some people that Danielle is crazy and made the Others up, but why would that cause the group to split into two factions? Controversy about exploring the hatch? I don't see why that would cause a split either, except simply a physical split -- some go down into the hatch; some don't -- but some kind of philosophical split? I don't see that happening.

People haven't been honest about what they've encountered or what they know -- but that's not just Locke. It's also Kate, Sayid, Charlie and Jack, so I don't think the revelation that people have been lying would cause it either.

I guess what I'm saying here is that the differences Jack has with Locke aren't differences that would cause the group to split up into factions. They're primarily philosophical, at this point, and I don't see the majority of the survivors as particularly philosophical people. They need Locke to assist in day-to-day survival and they need Jack to tend to the ill and wounded. That's all they know. What would make them choose sides? Sayid, Hurley, Shannon, Claire, Sawyer, Jin, Michael -- they're all pretty practical people. I don't see them choosing up sides when they need both Jack and Locke to survive, unless something really cataclysmic happens.

[Celtic Ceilidh]

If the cataclysmic event that pulls the group apart is how best to get Walt back from the others, the sides might be drawn between Locke and Michael, rather than Jack. I can see Michael and several others wanting to take action now and Locke wanting to wait for the island show them a sign first.

[HawaiiHeaven]

Rewatching "Special" episode, I see that Locke would very much like to lead a band of devoted followers who believe in him and look up to him, though he uses manipulation to achieve this, and he just might be able to turn a small group against Jack or Sayid. It will be interesting to see if even after Boone's death he could still be able to recruit other followers. Some of the dialogue in "Special" is worth paying closer attention to. Locke seems to be able to convince people he can help them and uses certain "tricks" to ellicit devotion, similar to what has been described above as a Shaman, or even a faith healer. I had forgotten until I rewatched this episode just how far Locke got in being able to recruit Boone, almost to a degree seen in cults.

[Hodgepodge]

Celtic Ceilidh says:If the cataclysmic event that pulls the group apart is how best to get Walt back from the others, the sides might be drawn between Locke and Michael, rather than Jack. I can see Michael and several others wanting to take action now and Locke wanting to wait for the island show them a sign first.That's an interesting take CC. But I think Locke has grown attached to Walt. If anything, I think he'd be right there with Michael wanting to go after him.


HawaiiHeaven says:...I had forgotten until I rewatched this episode just how far Locke got in being able to recruit Boone, almost to a degree seen in cults.HH, this is one of my favorite "Boone beatings". I mean, he didn't hesitate to jump Michael when he thought Locke/God was being threatened. Just like a cult follower.

[DohBoy]

Perhaps it's not Jack vs. Locke, but Leader vs. No Leader.

Jack would be the leader of the Leader group. Locke would be the epitome of the group with no leader, doing whatever they want to do. We've already seen a lot of resistance in the cast, including redshirts, to Jack's leadership, starting from the cave.

Jack has already begun to establish a hierarchy: Jack, the Captain; Kate, his first mate; and then Hurley, his lackey.

We've already seen Locke, Sayid, Sawyer and Shannon go their own way, and only follow Jack reluctantly.

The question is, who needs a leader, a hierarchy, some rules and order, and who is independent? Sun, Charlie, and I think Michael and Walt need to be led. Jin and Claire are independent.

[Brian]

DohBoy,
Perhaps it's not Jack vs. Locke, but Leader vs. No Leader.
When I first read this earlier this evening, I immediately wanted to jump in but I waited till now. Why? Well, the thought intrigued me and I wanted to think about it for a bit.

I've seen posts here, mine included, that state the split is going to be along the line of Jack versus Locke. Then I've seen the other posts that say there's no way, Locke isn't a leader, Locke doesn't want to be a leader, etc.

That said, this is why I come to this board. It helps me develop my thought processes when it comes to LOST and discussions just like this.

OK, supposedly there's going to be a split among the castaways next season, a split into two groups, or so we're led to believe. Originally, I took this to mean that Jack would round up his followers, Locke would round up his, and then they would go their separate ways. Well, to be quite honest, I was never really comfortable with that definition, meaning Jack and Locke as leaders of varying groups. Try to stay with me here.......sometimes my fingers don't keep up with my brain. :) Everything I mentioned about the Locke/Jack group split was based upon the theory that that is how the split was alleged to occur. If anyone cares to read back, you'll find that I mentioned that regardless of whatever split occurs, there's no way anyone's getting off that island without it being a team effort, meaning, in the end, they're all going to have to work together.

OK, so now that I have you thoroughly confused, let me continue. Like I said, I was never comfortable with the Locke/Jack split theory. However, I am comfortable with the Leader/No Leader split. I mean, admit it, there are those in this world who honestly need someone to tell them what to do, where to go, when to be there, etc. We all know at least one person like this. There are also those in this world who don't need this verbalization/direction, they already know what to do, where to go, when to be there, etc. It's mechanical in them, inherent is probably a better word. That probably describes Locke best at this point.

That said, I'm revising my "split" theory and how it includes Jack and Locke to coincide with the "Leader versus No Leader" thought. I think the split is going to be between those who feel compelled to stay at either the beach or caves because of whatever reason. They're not going to go exploring, searching, etc. They're going to stay put. The other group is going to be the ones who band together to take on the island and find out what the hell is going on, where they are. Basically, rather than a Jack versus Locke split, I think we're going to see a hunter versus gatherer split. That concept feels more comfortable to me because it allows members of each group to cross into the other group effortlessly. Meaning, Jack could stay at the caves/coast with the castaways in one episode but could take off to find what lies beyond the Black Rock with Locke and Kate in the next episode.

If we're to have faith (and faith in this instance has nothing to do with religion) in Jack and Locke being the destiny twins, then we're going to have to accept the fact that they're going to have to work together. They obviously couldn't do this if they were opposing each other leading various camps, so to speak. The hunter versus gatherer thought allows them to still have their differences while, at the same time, working together.

Granted, it's hard to visualize this at this point in the show's timeline because everyone's scattered right now. However, they will have to come back to some semblance of normalcy at some point. It's a work in progress, the hunter versus gatherer theory that is, and we'll see how it develops as others add their views. Of course, by me even mentioning it, it means it won't happen that way at all! :)

[I like to listen]

I never believed it was Locke's motivation to blow the hatch so they could garrison the survivors from the others. It was the motivation of the rest of the survivors, but to him it was helpful to have a few extra mules to get the explosives back to the hatch.
I think Jack knows this, and that is why he asked Kate to have his back in case of Locke. "Do, you like to play games, John" was a keyhole to Jack's awakening of how Locke may be thinking, that Jack had been pondering, but had not voiced until then. So when he got a honest answer, it scared him, because he relised he was in a game that Locke was much farther ahead on.

I believe that if the survivors split it will come down to;

Those infected and crazy and those who aren't.

Those that enter the hatch will be safe/immune/. Those who do not enter the hatch will be infected. I think this for two reasons.

1. The French Chick was not infected or killed because she was hiding/sheltered, and Black Rock was also a haven. Applies to Locke, Jack, Hurley and Kate as they at this time know the location of both the hatch and the ship.

2. The four will not get sick as the will enter the hatch. otherwise you have the doctor trying to cure himself, and the other three interesting ones sick also. Of course the last time Jack was hurting Kate had his back , by sewing hm up when he couldn't do it after the crash.

Another thing to ponder is that Kate may be getting tired of Jacks game with his/her trust. After he switched the dynamite bags it proved Jack will cheat if it suits him, like everyone else in her backstory that she had to work with to meet her goals.

She in alot of ways is closer to Lockes life then Jack's. She was roaming in Australia, Locke wanted to Walkabout. Both their parents burned them. Both can handle their stuff.

I see if there is a split for another reason. It will not be Kate and Jack on the same side.

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen says:...The other group is going to be the ones who band together to take on the island and find out what the hell is going on, where they are. Basically, rather than a Jack versus Locke split, I think we're going to see a hunter versus gatherer split. That concept feels more comfortable to me because it allows members of each group to cross into the other group effortlessly. Meaning, Jack could stay at the caves/coast with the castaways in one episode but could take off to find what lies beyond the Black Rock with Locke and Kate in the next episode...I'm hoping this is the case. These people need to get off their duffs and do something.

We all at some point get tired of being pushed around. Boxed into a corner. These 40+ survivors have spent the last 40 (+-) days being scared. Being bullied by the island. Somebody needs to drop "trou" and show they got a pair.

Leuthen also says:...Granted, it's hard to visualize this at this point in the show's timeline because everyone's scattered right now. However, they will have to come back to some semblance of normalcy at some point...I know where you're going here, but this statement made me think of something else.

Although everybody's at the caves, except for the "dynamite team". When do they get together a swap information? Jack's made the decision to hide the survivors in the hatch. Does he send Hurley or Kate to start gathering the others? While he or Locke reconnoiter the hatch? Is that when they find out about Danielle's deception?

[Lost In His Eyes]

I think no matter how they survivors are split, like whos with who, the hatch will be right in the middle of it. I can see Locke being ready to jump down there first thing and wanting to investigate it. And I can see Jack wanting to wait, for whatever reason, before they go down. Maybe it will end up being a matter of who the rest of the castaways trust more.

[HawaiiHeaven]

Leuthen, Hodge and others- I agree that a split will not be straight evenly down the line of castaways, but rather, those who will actively go out to "hunt" as Leuthen says, and those who will be content to hide and take care of their own needs. Those who hunt may have different reasons, but the hunters will know enough that they will need to band together for any success in finding out what the Island is all about and how to survive it long enough to get off it.

I still am going with my last impression after rewatching "Special" that Locke will not be a leader, so much as the anti-leader. He will attract a very few devoted "followers" who he will manipulate by playing on their weaknesses, with visions, hallucinations or seeing something in their pasts with his "mind's eye" as he calls it. With Boone, Locke was able to transfer Boone's obsessive devotion to Shannon to himself, to the point that Boone was to Locke, as Vincent is to Walt.

I believe that if Michael returns, washes up, to shore, Michael will be a prime candidate to turn obsessively to Locke. The exact same qualities in Locke that originally freaked him out, will now draw him in, because the logic and reason that Jack will offer will not suit or satisfy his state of mind after what happened. Locke will know how to take advantage of Michael in a Post-traumatic stress disorder state, and will convince him that he can help the "Island" bring back Walt. Remember, those who are in fragile emotional states turn to faith healers, shamans, and cults.

I don't think that even Jack will be in a rush to venture down the Hatch, and will definitely seek out Sayid's assistance. Kate of course follows Jack, but I am not sure if he should trust her. Charlie and Claire are candidates for nesting with Sun, and Shannon would be a drag for Sayid (I hope he would realize this!), so would likely nest also. We are not sure if the other Rafters will all wash up on the same beach- some may end up on the "other side".

I am thinking a reunion would likely occur with Sawyer finding Danielle's transmission equipment, and changing the message to a new mesage in the hopes that Sayid would have the idea to "tune in" again for just such a change by someone finding the transmitter.

Getting back to Locke- Locke would use Michael's state of mind to ellicit the devotion he craves to preach the faith in destiny. His method of finding walt would likely clash head on with Jack's.

I have also considered the remote possibility that a pattern is happening here, that Walt may suddenly return after being taken, just as Claire was returned, and Charlie was returned.

[As an aside, I have often considered the possibility that Locke was also taken right after he saw the monster and then came back with the first boar. If you remember, Kate and Michael returned to the beach after Michael was bitten by the Boar, and the camera showed Locke staring straight up at the"monster". That night, Locke returned with the Boar, but we NEVER WERE SHOWN what happened to Locke in that time. He might have been taken and returned. Locke may have been instructed in some way by the "Island/Others" at that time. If Walt is returned Jack may suddenly realize the pattern and start to question if something was done to Claire, Charlie and Walt while they were taken, and what the purpose of their being taken was (he would not realize that Locke had also been taken)]

[LostInWilderness]

I don't see leader/no leader at all. It's Jack and Locke, imo. There will be no hard definition of sides because it's never that simple. But Locke does intend to be a leader, but not the "I'm the leader" type leader. Locke will lead by example and manipulation. Remember he told Boone of SayidHe's very competent. We don't want to make an enemy of him. We're going to want him on our side.
Those are the words of man who intends to be a manipulative low-key leader. He uses the inclusive "we", not the set off "I," and he clearly states his intention to have a group - or a team.

We'll see a conflict between Locke's and Jack's teams and the players will change during it, and some will play both sides. We'll also see times where Jack's and Locke's motivations align like at the hatch and probably Walt's rescue, and they will cooperate. I also think both sides will explore the island's mysteries. The group of people who sit and wait will ostensibly be led by Jack, but that's not the interesting part. The interesting part is how they interact on the playing field.

[athywithak]

Leuthen: they will have to come back to some semblance of normalcy at some point

LiW: There will be no hard definition of sides because it's never that simple

I expect the next season to be more intense. I like the character-driven aspect of the show, but I think ABC will want more action, and TPTB will have to give more action in order to wrap up some mysteries before losing viewers. I do not expect things to ever go back to even as normal as they have been. I base this in part on some spoilers and some diary stuff, but I won't go into that, because I think Exodus itself points quite well at this direction. The good news about that trend will be that, yes, some long-awaited exploring will be done!

I like the hunter/gatherer split idea. A not hard-n-fast split, into opposing groups or philosophies, but a lifestyle split which could morph into a philosophical split as some characters come to understand just how unusual things are on Craphole Island, while others stay in their safety and thus ignorance.

He-who-enjoys-listening (hello, welcome) reminded us about the sickness, which could be a factor in all of this, especially if the sickness isn't physical. I wonder when and if we will find out anything specific about the sickness itself, but I expect the IDEA of the sickness to be a factor in splitting folks up, setting them against each other.

And yes, folks could already be sick. DR said, "Watch them CLOSELY" and our survivors, who unlike the science team didn't know each other before, are not close.

I don't expect the raft survivors to be back for a while, but I enjoyed HH's point about Michael going with whoever seems to have the key to finding Walt. I don't agree that Locke will be able to influence him in his weakened state, unless Locke presents some insider knowledge like "falls up the stairs" to demonstrate his link with The Island to Michael. However, I do recall that Jack, as the leader, had a lot to do with deciding to not go after Claire, and I expect him to feel the same about Walt - he will be practical and say there is no place to start, the "pirates" may be on another island, etc. so Locke may be Michael's only choice.


A lot depends on what happens as dawn breaks October 5. I still think the Others could be coming for Aaron too.

K

[Brian]

I like to listen,
I never believed it was Locke's motivation to blow the hatch so they could garrison the survivors from the others.
I think he was dually motivated. Primarily because he wanted in but if the others can/could be sheltered as a by-product of him getting what he wanted, all the better. It was a win-win situation for Locke. Either way, he got in, now we'll see how long it takes for him to disappear again! :)
"Do, you like to play games, John" was a keyhole to Jack's awakening of how Locke may be thinking, that Jack had been pondering, but had not voiced until then. So when he got a honest answer, it scared him, because he relised he was in a game that Locke was much farther ahead on.
Very well said! I've never thought of it that way. I mean, I knew there was a motivation behind Jack asking that when he did, but I just figured it was a vocal manifestation of him questioning his motives. I agree, I think Locke's answer, coupled with the dead serious look on his face, caught Jack off gaurd and it scared him.
Another thing to ponder is that Kate may be getting tired of Jacks game with his/her trust. After he switched the dynamite bags it proved Jack will cheat if it suits him, like everyone else in her backstory...
Yeah, I kinda picked up on that as well. I'll have to wait until early in Season 2 before I agree definitively. I still haven't quite figured out Kate and Jack's relationship. There's something there that I can't put my finger on and this is quite possibly it.

[Brian]

Hodge,
Although everybody's at the caves, except for the "dynamite team". When do they get together a swap information? Jack's made the decision to hide the survivors in the hatch. Does he send Hurley or Kate to start gathering the others? While he or Locke reconnoiter the hatch? Is that when they find out about Danielle's deception?
Ahh, you finally asked the question that's been in the back of my mind throughout all of this discussion.

Considering that we all pretty much agree there's going to be a confrontation of some sort between Locke and Jack about who's going into the hatch first, there's no way either of those two is going to leave the other alone at the hatch. So, either they both go to round up the other castaways, or they both stay and send one or both of the others back to the caves. Me, I opt for the latter. They'll agree that the hatch needs to be explored and in the mean time send Kate and/or Hurley back to the caves. Given Kate's committment to Jack to "watch his back," she'll most likely stay as well. Then again, in order for Hurley to explain about the numbers, he'll have to be at the hatch. Ugh, this is making my head hurt! :) In a good way, though! You could also make the argument that they're going to stick together, (remember, in their minds, the others are still coming) for safety, but Locke's not going to leave his, now, open treasure chest unattended.

I'll be really interested to see how TPTB work through this one. They've developed enough trust issues, Locke issues, and backroom scheming into this part of the story line that I have no idea what's going to happen! :)

[Brian]

HH,

Wow! I hardly know where to start so I'll just jump right in. Keep in mind, I agree almost to a "T" with everything you've said.
I still am going with my last impression after rewatching "Special" that Locke will not be a leader, so much as the anti-leader.
Originally I found myself thinking that Locke would be a "leader" of some sort but as I read everyone's reasons against this, I'm changing my mind more every day. Watching White Rabbit[/b] again last night even further proves this. I'm honestly starting to agree that Locke doesn't want to be a leader, at least in the conventional sense amongst the castaways. I remember an old quote from when I was in the Army, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way." That doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a leader to lead, if that makes any sense. It also means that just because you choose to follow, it doesn't mean you're following a leader as much as the lead. Hope I didn't lose anyone there. :)
Remember, those who are in fragile emotional states turn to faith healers, shamans, and cults.
I agree with everything you said about Michael and what could possibly happen upon his return, I mean, unless TPTB just leave the raft crew floating around in the ocean all season long. They're going to have to return in some semblance, eventually. That said, I'll only add one thing to your list above, faith, and I'm not talking about reli when I say that. That's not what Locke means when he talks about faith and I'm going to keep context with Locke. (I believe you mentioned faith being tied to destiny, that's what I was going after.)
I don't think that even Jack will be in a rush to venture down the Hatch, and will definitely seek out Sayid's assistance.<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
The only thing that makes Jack want to enter that hatch is Locke, IMO. If Locke were out of the equation, Jack wouldn't think twice about the hatch. As we witnessed in White Rabbit, Jack's dad did enough to screw up his self-confidence that he wouldn't feel safe with the hatch on his own.
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>I am thinking a reunion would likely occur with Sawyer finding Danielle's transmission equipment, and changing the message to<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->
Knowing Sawyer, how funny could that possibly be? I know Sawyer isn't the person he tries to come across as, but, even in this situation, I don't think he'd put himself above some levity. Interesting thought though!

I'm not going to quote it because there's no good way to do so without destroying the intent, but, I like your idea about Locke and possibly others being taken at some point earlier in the show. Locke did seem to have a lot of unanswered for disappearances didn't he? Hmm......interesting.

Thanks HH!

[Brian]

LIW,
I don't see leader/no leader at all. It's Jack and Locke, imo.
I agree but only in the sense that Locke won't be a "leader", if you will. I think this makes since when coupled with my earlier response to HH. I think the word that's hanging us up here at times is leader. I can't think of a better word to describe how I envision Locke's role in the future, at the present time, so leader will have to do for now. That said, I completely agree with you on this.
The interesting part is how they interact on the playing field.
Absolutely! I alluded to this earlier, possibly in another thread, when I said, "It isn't whether they win or lose, but how they play the game." :)

-----------------------
Completely off topic but - my daughter (6) was just telling me "goodnight" and, looking over my shoulder while reading your response, fell in love with your avatar! :)

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen says:...Considering that we all pretty much agree there's going to be a confrontation of some sort between Locke and Jack about who's going into the hatch first, there's no way either of those two is going to leave the other alone at the hatch. So, either they both go to round up the other castaways, or they both stay and send one or both of the others back to the caves. Me, I opt for the latter. They'll agree that the hatch needs to be explored and in the mean time send Kate and/or Hurley back to the caves...You know, when this thread started, I thought it would be Kate heading down that rabbit hole. But now since this predicament has surfaced, I think Jack will send both Hurley and Kate back to get the other survivors. While they're gone, Jack and Locke venture down the hatch.

Someone tells Kate about Danielle's deception. Kate heads back to the hatch to inform the "Destiny twins". Of course they're already down the hatch. And we know what happens next. She heads down as well.

I could write this stuff!

[Brian]

Hodge
Kate heads back to the hatch to inform the "Destiny twins". Of course they're already down the hatch. And we know what happens next. She heads down as well.

Absolutely.

Just out of curiosity Hodge, by "Danielle's deception", are you referring to what transpired between Danielle, Aaron, and the others? I think you are but I was just checking. That's the second time you've mentioned "Danielle's deception" and I don't want to take you out of context.

Thanks! :)

[Zambini Stardust]

Does "Danielle's deception" mean you think there are no Others? I have two opposing interpretations of the black smoke...

1. There really are "Others" that stole Danielle's child, and they showed up right after the black smoke 16 years ago. Thus:
1.a. The black smoke in Exodus II was placed there by the Others but they did not show up as Danielle had predicted, because they were instead hijacking Walt. The smoke was a decoy. or...
1.b. The black smoke in Exodus II was placed there by Danielle to set the trap for Aaron. She figured it worked for the Others, it will work for me.
- OR -
2. There are no "Others" and never have been. Danielle made the black smoke as a decoy for the taking of Aaron. However, if this is the case, then why did Danielle mention the Others the first time she met Sayid, before she knew about Claire's baby?

Am I totally off-base here? Is is really that clear to everyone else that Danielle is alone on the island and there are no Others?

[acovell]

Am I totally off-base here? Is is really that clear to everyone else that Danielle is alone on the island and there are no Others?

I don't think you are. Danielle may be crazy, but she hasn't been wrong so far. Nothing that she's said so far has proven to be a lie. I think there are "Others" and there is a "sickness" -- it's just that her perception of those things may not be accurate.

[athywithak]

Like I said, I still think the Others could be coming for Aaron too! Charlie's belief that the whole smoke thing was a ploy by Danielle could lead to disaster for Claire n Aaron!

K

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen asks:Just out of curiosity Hodge, by "Danielle's deception", are you referring to what transpired between Danielle, Aaron, and the others? I think you are but I was just checking. That's the second time you've mentioned "Danielle's deception" and I don't want to take you out of context.

Thanks!Most definitely!


Zambini Stardust says:Does "Danielle's deception" mean you think there are no Others? I have two opposing interpretations of the black smoke...ZS, those are hell'a choices! You know, actually seeing the questions in Black/white....Damn!

Danielle was on the beach with the survivors when everyone saw the black smoke. Now I guess she could've set a delayed fuse. Locke told us how easy that's done...Damn!

There's a chance she saw Aaron a couple of days before making herself known to the other survivors...Damn!

OK! I'm going to get off the dime. I pick....

...1.b. The black smoke in Exodus II was placed there by Danielle to set the trap for Aaron. She figured it worked for the Others, it will work for me...I think it was all a ploy. Danielle snuck into camp and heard/saw Aaron. She figured, it worked for the "Others". It should work for her.

Damn...I forgot about*whistle*! I may have to retract all of the above, and rethink this! Great question Zambini Stardust.

[athywithak]

You know what hasn't crossed my mind, or this discussion:

Locke probably didn't tell J, K n H about the LIGHT in the hatch. How would they feel if they knew?

Jack certainly would have seen it more as Sayid did, and less as a safe hiding place, eh?

K

[Brian]

athywithak,
Locke probably didn't tell J, K n H about the LIGHT in the hatch. How would they feel if they knew?

Jack certainly would have seen it more as Sayid did, and less as a safe hiding place, eh?

That's a very good point and one that I thought of early in this discussion in regards to Locke explaining why he should go first into the hatch but somewhere between brain and fingers, I failed to mention it! :) I do that sometimes as I'm sure you've all noticed.

Anyway, I think this revelation by Locke would add an entire new dimension to the discussion among the hatch team. I could see Locke mentioning this if/when Hurley is able to explain about the numbers. *kicks* TPTB for not answering more questions in Season 1! This should be a non-issue at this point, IMO. *kicks* self for not *kicking* TPTB earlier for this. *kicks* Locke for not mentioning the "light" yet. *kicks* Hurley for not mentioning the numbers yet. (Yeah, I know, he tried but Locke would not be denied. Hey, I just made a rhyme! :) ) *kicks* Michael just cause I don't like him.

1....2....3....4....5...OK, I'm better now. Sorry 'bout that.

Back on topic now. The "light" revelation is going to have to come out some time soon in Season 2. If Locke resists mentioning it, perhaps the island/hatch will take it upon itself and just light it again in front of everyone. That said, the light coulda been helpful when Locke and Jack were looking down the hatch in Exodus. Oh here we go, another thought, What did Locke see when the light came on and did his facial expression looking into the darkness convey any semblance of confusion or acknowledgement? If I remember correctly he looked into the lit hatch, after Boone's death, and started raising up, or backing up, or however you want to describe it. Did what he see scare him? Confuse him? Awe him?

OK, I'm quitting now. I'm in one of those moods tonight where giddiness is taking over. Sorry 'bout that y'all! It's been a long, long, long HOT week here in south GA! :)

Off topic,
athywithak, do you have any idea how hard it is to type your screen name once one understands it? Can I just refer to you as k or K from now on? My brain keeps telling me to type Kathy and it's bugging the hell out of me! :) In a good way of course.

[Hodgepodge]

athywithak says:You know what hasn't crossed my mind, or this discussion:

Locke probably didn't tell J, K n H about the LIGHT in the hatch. How would they feel if they knew?

Jack certainly would have seen it more as Sayid did, and less as a safe hiding place, eh?Athywithak, you and ZS are giving me grey hairs.

There's a thread in Locke's forum where I asked Leuthen whether he thought Locke had been in the hatch. The reason I brought that up was the light going on at the end of Deus Ex Machina. I envisioned the hatch unlocking and creaking open. Boy, wouldn't that have been something! While obviously he hasn't. He was still to anxious to gain entry.

Well, no way is Locke going to add that little tidbit to the discussion. As you mentioned, Jack would look at the hatch in a whole knew light (no pun intended).

[athywithak]

Yes, Leuthen and everyone friendly here may call me "K" (as I sign my posts) or also athy is welcome.:D

[obsessedlostfan]

Sitting here reading a couple of the posts got tme to thinking about the present topic, and this is my version of things..as far as how I have interpreted it...

Jack..leader,hero,alpha male,hot head,doctor
John..outcast,hunter,mystic,oddball,omega male

Not to bore with details since we all know them ad nauseum, these 2 characters are the central ones to the show since its debut..and as time progressed , its most polished ones.

Jack is a conflicted soul who will always lead,suffer,sacrifice,a loser in love, who never quits to the point of death...he also is stubborn,hot headed, and anal.A good guy..hero..who risks all to save those around him..his main purpose with the hatch is simply put..to hide,shelter,house the castaways..against the elements of danger from the island..he seems to have become settled on fact that he might be stranded for life..why would he want a move to hatch..for from shore ?..He is really starting to believe that he is stuck on craphole island.

John our resident wacko,oddball,loony,eccentric hunter,wise old sage..is the most fascinating,multifaceted character on show..he is a walking contradiction full of surprises..I agree with you most..he is more an advisor..than leader..since we started..he was first to push Jack to leadership reigns..until he started to go all covert operative..( seen monster,Boone,Walt,Hatch uncovering...etc.).., he also has shown a side of being pacifist..he never struck Jack, and feared a confrontation with Ethan..telling Jack that Claire is whats keeping them all alive,and leave her with maniac..He keeps referring to hope in the hatch..what that means at this point is simply put..only known to John Locke...master of ulterior motives...

[thoughtform]

He keeps referring to hope in the hatch..what that means at this point is simply put..only known to John Locke...master of ulterior motives...
Exactly. Locke has been leading most events covertly. He is like the person he dreamed of being. He is moving the pieces on the board. We don't know how he has come to have these insights into our lostaways, but he has guided them either directly or indirectly the entire time. I know he calls Jack the leader, but that is lip service.

[Brian]

thoughtform, et al,
We don't know how he has come to have these insights into our lostaways, but he has guided them either directly or indirectly the entire time.

Good point, and an even better question.

OK, y'all know me well enough by now to know that even I like to go off the deep end from time to time, just to blow off steam, clear my mind, etc. That said, indulge me here for a minute, and enjoy the ride. This is complete speculation based somewhat loosely in our little world of LOST. Ready? :) Let's have some fun -

Bear with me, I may jump around a bit but I'll try to keep it concise.

OK, whether you like him or not, we all pretty much agree that Locke's got some weird things going on upstairs. Now how would a normal, everyday seemingly productive member of society, in a wheelchair, end up being so seemingly powerful (for lack of a better word right now) on the island? We know he's been in the wheel chair for 4 years, but we don't know how he got there. There's a lot of backstory missing between his split with his wonderful father and showing up in Australia for walkabout.

After leaving the boards Saturday night, I decided to pop in a DVD and just grabbed the first one on the stack. I popped it in, and waited for the screen to come up. Guess what the first thing I saw was? I swear this was coincidental! I saw Jason Bourne floating face up in the ocean. Now, those of you who haven't seen The Bourne Identity, are possibly going to be a little confused.

I found a correlation between Jason Bourne and our John Locke. Both woke up in a strange place, not completely sure of who they are, what they're doing, etc. However, for some strange reason, both seem to have the skills to get the job done, whatever the job. They don't have any idea how they came into possession of said skills, but use them masterfully. They're both driven by a purpose unbeknownst to them initially.

What if, and this is a stretch, the missing time in Locke's backstory was spent in an institution/therapy of some kind involving/testing psychosomatic drugs, possibly experimental, in helping him deal with what his father had done to him. Perhaps he became so mentally deficient that he couldn't interact with civilization any longer. Perhaps this was a last step. The drugs/therapy could have changed his id in some way. Gave him the abilities he now has. Perhaps the crash unlocked those traits in him.

He's secretive and guarded. Motivated. Able to interact with others at the most primal level. Seemingly has a developed 6th sense at times. Can lock out pain, both physical and emotional, remember the trebuchet? Can see into others at a basic emotional and physiological level (the island, Charlie, Jack, Claire, Sayid, Boone,...) and in doing so, can guide them toward self-awareness as well as, when necessary, give them exactly what they need at the time. Acts unconsciously almost all the time. Is proactive versus reactive. Feels sure when others question (ie - with Jack in Exodus at the pit). And that's just the short list! :)

Perhaps Jack, being an M.D., was somehow supposed to be on the island with Locke as a sort of control. Perhaps everyone, with all their problems and past transgressions were also part of the plan. Maybe the others are what Locke is ultimately tied to in the end. To use a Matrix-ism, perhaps he's the One and all of the other passengers are in place to help develop, hone, and further build on his abilities or skills leading toward the final confrontation with the others. The hatch? Perhaps a safe-haven or safehouse of some sort. Maybe that's why Locke was so determined to get in.

It's just a thought. Something I've had bouncing around in my head since Saturday night when I watched The Bourne Identity. As with most of my thoughts, it's just an idea, not necessarily a good one! :)

Here we go.............. :lol

[athywithak]

OK, Leuthen, I have actually seen Bourne movies, but I don't buy it for a second, because you said:

“not completely sure of who they are, what they're doing, etc.” and “don't have any idea how they came into possession of said skills”

I think Locke does know who he is (if not who Helen is) in both a mundane sense and a more comprehensive sense, and I really think the stuff in his room and the knives on the plane (which I guess he never really said were HIS, come to think of it) indicate his preparations for the walkabout, plus all the strategy games were prep for this real life monsters-n-hatches game.

But really I am replying to urge you to expand on this one:
Acts unconsciously almost all the time.

I have some ideas about that, but I want to hear what you have to say first. Examples?

the ride was fun, thanks

K

[LostInWilderness]

You call that concise Leuthan? ;)

Or maybe one of the powers on the island converted all his book learning to experience. Call it an epiphany that also overcame his hystericall paralysis. Only when faced with his old impotent rage did he start to revert.

Locke is clearly a leader in the manipulative way.

[Brian]

LIW,
You call that concise Leuthan?

I said I'd try! I never promised anything! :)
Or maybe one of the powers on the island converted all his book learning to experience.

That's a possibility as well. I could go with that.
Locke is clearly a leader in the manipulative way.

Aren't they all? :) I mean that in a good way, at least as far as it's related to Locke.

Thanks! :)

[Brian]

K,
I have actually seen Bourne movies, but I don't buy it for a second, because you said:
<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>“not completely sure of who they are, what they're doing, etc.” and “don't have any idea how they came into possession of said<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->
I agree with you that Locke knows who he is and that was the biggest problem I had with relating the two. I was actually going after the sudden appearance of skills that had no explanation. Yes, I know Jason came to understand his, I was referring to the beginning of the movie. After all, this is Season 1 of LOST that I'm referring to, we still have a lot to learn about Locke.
I really think the stuff in his room and the knives on the plane (which I guess he never really said were HIS, come to think of it) indicate his preparations for the walkabout, plus all the strategy games were prep for this real life monsters-n-hatches game.
Yeah, now that you mention it, I don't ever remember him owning up to the knives although we all assume they're his. Assumption is a bad thing. As for me, I think they are his. Why? Just 'cause I do. :) I can't explain it any further than that. It's a hunch or gut feeling.

Oh, "monsters-n-hatches". Reminds me of Chutes and Ladders. One roll of the die has the ability to advance you greatly, or knock you down a few pegs all at the same time. It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game!

And now...
Acts unconsciously almost all the time.

What did I mean by that? Glad you asked. What I meant was that Locke isn't coming across as an actively scheming character. It's not like he retreats to wherever it is he goes when the sun goes down and actively plans on the next move. Whether we see it or not, I don't think that's what he's doing. I think everything he does, he does without thinking, unconsciously. He just does it! Why? Because, in the end, he knows it's the right thing to do; it's what's supposed to be done; it has to happen. If that makes any sense, hopefully it does.

Let me take it on a case-by-case basis.

Charlie - Locke didn't have to help Charlie with the drugs, and probably never intended to, but he did. Was Locke directed too by the island? I have no idea, but it's what Charlie needed at the time. I will also say that his approach to that situation was masterful to say the least.

Jack - Why did Locke suddenly appear out of nowhere to help Jack at the cliffside? Divine intervention? Faith? And then after the cliffside incident, why, if he were really looking for water, because (I know where to look....), would Locke spend that much time discussing with Jack about what he, Jack, was looking for out there? That scene, in context, was meant to happen. Locke was there, at the right time, for myriad reasons and I don't think Locke nor Jack understand it yet.

Claire - Why did Locke take so much time to build, and include Claire in, something so seemingly menial in the overall context of the story? Because that's what Claire needed at the time. Just my opinion of course.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, Locke does a lot of the things he does without thinking and it's rarely about him. Yes, there's the Boone incident and I can't quite put my finger on his ulterior motive for knocking out Sayid, but it's the overall feel of Locke's actions that I'm referring to. Yes, there are times that Locke acts deliberately but overall, I think he's action subconsciously, or unconsciously. It's his id that's taking over in the majority of instances.

For those who can't, or won't, look it up, id is defined as, "the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that is completely unconscious and is the source of psychic energy derived from instinctual needs and drives."

Given that definition, Locke isn't necessarily aware of why he's doing the things he's doing. He's just doing them because it's his instinct to do so.

Hope that helps, K. I don't know where you were going, but that's the best explanation I can give you right now. :)

[Zambini Stardust]

If I remeber correctly, someone asked Locke how he got all those knives on the plane, and he responded, "I checked them." Or something like that. So yes I think he did claim the knives were his. True or not, we don't know, but I think he did claim them.

We don't know Locke has been in a wheelchair for 4 years, we know he has "been living with this condition for 4 years." He might not have been in the wheelchair the whole time.

Just a guess here, that has been floating around for a while...someone suggested a few posts back that maybe Locke had been involved in some experimental drug therapy. Maybe it was at the same asylum where Hurley's friends chanted the numbers. This idea has been discussed a lot around here, but I think the experimental drug idea is new. I like that one.

[I like to listen]

The knives are a good point to bring up and since there isn't a thread concerning the knives, I would like to add some observations here.

Locke in Walkabout admits to the knife thrown next to Sawyers' head.

KATE: (points) How'd you get that knife on the plane?

LOCKE: Checked it.

As to the rest of the case, one is knife is shown missing that he has just thrown. Who checked those, same person. Not really an assumption.

What I find interesting is the number of knives totaled 7. Locke has taken the Bowie for himself, when there are a couple better all around survival knives in the case, IMO. The case is not a locking case. All the knives though, would be better than being unarmed. Locke does share the knives with the others in follwing episodes. He also tries to teach the use of them to Walt. The gathering of food was facilitated by having this case of weapons available, because of Locke. Locke himself does not seem to overly interested in firearms later in the series. Also there are not any disputes or fears "who has a knife (ie -deadly weapon)" Way of the Blade- Seven Samurai.

Contrast that to the Halliburton case, the Marshal's gun, the Smugglers gun, DRs' rifles, and Walts abductors weapon. These firearms were all in major disputes over possesion or use of them. Remember who has tried to "control" guns. 9 firearms shown, six in possesion of the 815s. Six Shooter(s)- The Cowboys.

In the "Magnificent Seven" (1960) there is a great showdown involving James Coburn in a duel with a Cowboy and his Six shooter. Why the duel is interesting is that it plays on the coventional wisdom that a knife against a gun in a draw is not an even match. This is disproved in the scene when Coburns' character plants his Bowie knife into the cowboy before he can draw. It should be noted that he is also skilled with a gun, such as Locke was shown in the Ethan hunt.

My point is that most of the 815s acts like a cowboy with the guns, it gives them power hence the disputes. Because the the power derives from the the weapon not the person. Shannon , Charlie, etc.. Locke gives up his weapon to Sayid (Locke could care less) Why does Sayid want it..IMO bcause Locke is the power, a firearm makes him even more of a threat to Sayid. "The Magnificent Seven" probably wasn't released in Iraq. -pun

So now at the hatch, Jack has a pistol, and Locke has a knife.

If there is going to be a control issue at this point, Kate will decide with her piece. This is why Jack ask for Kate to "have his back". He got daddy isssues, he is a cowboy and he might of seen, "The Magnificent Seven" and know that he is outmatched alone against Locke.

Have at it.

[mvirion]

"I can't quite put my finger on his ulterior motive for knocking out Sayid"

Sayid was trying to find the source of the radio transmission. We know from DR that the transmitter is near the Black Rock in the Dark Territory. Maybe Locke felt or knew that it would be dangerous to go there because of the monster, sickness, etc.

[athywithak]

I think Locke said (to Sayid) that he didn't think finding that transmission would be a Good Thing for the 815s. And yes Danielle has implied the sickness was there by the radio location several times.

But why did Locke agree to go there when he wanted dynamite, then?

I think he just plain n simple wants to stay.

back soon for the other reply
-K

[LostInWilderness]

If you use a radio you die. Locke may well have saved Sayid's life by knocking him out.

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen says:...I found a correlation between Jason Bourne and our John Locke. Both woke up in a strange place, not completely sure of who they are, what they're doing, etc. However, for some strange reason, both seem to have the skills to get the job done, whatever the job. They don't have any idea how they came into possession of said skills, but use them masterfully. They're both driven by a purpose unbeknownst to them initially...You must remember Locke's walkabout plans. I think he went to Australia with the skills and knowledge we've seen. Hunting, laying traps, edible wild plants and such. Even his home-made "guacamole/truth serum". It was speculated some time ago, that he may've got all of these skills from books and or the internet. I won't go into that, but lucky for the survivors they crashed on an island he could put this knowledge to work.

Leuthen also says:...What if, and this is a stretch, the missing time in Locke's backstory was spent in an institution/therapy of some kind involving/testing psychosomatic drugs, possibly experimental, in helping him deal with what his father had done to him. Perhaps he became so mentally deficient that he couldn't interact with civilization any longer...I have no problem with this scenario. It goes along with the idea that all of the survivors have been institutionalized. SHBL will love this!

Leuthen says: ...Can see into others at a basic emotional and physiological level (the island, Charlie, Jack, Claire, Sayid, Boone,...) and in doing so, can guide them toward self-awareness as well as, when necessary, give them exactly what they need at the time. Acts unconsciously almost all the time. Is proactive versus reactive. Feels sure when others question (ie - with Jack in Exodus at the pit). And that's just the short list!...I thought we contributed this to the dreams/visions/hallucinations? These are brought on by the island.

Leuthen also says:...Jack - Why did Locke suddenly appear out of nowhere to help Jack at the cliffside? Divine intervention? Faith? And then after the cliffside incident, why, if he were really looking for water, because (I know where to look....), would Locke spend that much time discussing with Jack about what he, Jack, was looking for out there? That scene, in context, was meant to happen. Locke was there, at the right time, for myriad reasons and I don't think Locke nor Jack understand it yet...Remember, this was before his encounter with "the thing in the jungle". I think he may've been directed to Jack's predicament by the island. Call it intuition or whatever.

Leuthen says:...Claire - Why did Locke take so much time to build, and include Claire in, something so seemingly menial in the overall context of the story? Because that's what Claire needed at the time. Just my opinion of course...I think you can contribute this incident to one of his dreams/visions/hallucinations. We need a name for these things?

Leuthen also says:...Basically, what I'm trying to say is, Locke does a lot of the things he does without thinking and it's rarely about him. Yes, there's the Boone incident and I can't quite put my finger on his ulterior motive for knocking out Sayid, but it's the overall feel of Locke's actions that I'm referring to. Yes, there are times that Locke acts deliberately but overall, I think he's action subconsciously, or unconsciously. It's his id that's taking over in the majority of instances.

For those who can't, or won't, look it up, id is defined as, "the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that is completely unconscious and is the source of psychic energy derived from instinctual needs and drives."

Given that definition, Locke isn't necessarily aware of why he's doing the things he's doing. He's just doing them because it's his instinct to do so.There's been discussions about these major psyche. I remember one! Maybe the island has a way of stimulating, violating if you will, this id.

[Brian]

Zambini
If I remeber correctly, someone asked Locke how he got all those knives on the plane, and he responded, "I checked them." Or something like that. So yes I think he did claim the knives were his.
Thanks for the heads up. I couldn't remember for sure so I opted for the safe route when I mentioned he hadn't claimed them. I seemed to remember something about that but I couldn't be sure.
We don't know Locke has been in a wheelchair for 4 years, we know he has "been living with this condition for 4 years." He might not have been in the wheelchair the whole time.
Again, I was assuming the two (i.e. "this condition" and the wheelchair) were synonymous. I agree, we don't know for sure and that's why I mentioned later on that assumptions are always dangerous. :)

Thanks again for correcting me on the knives. I figured the way he handles them, they're his but I couldn't be sure.

[Hodgepodge]

I like to listen says:...What I find interesting is the number of knives totaled 7. Locke has taken the Bowie for himself, when there are a couple better all around survival knives in the case, IMO. The case is not a locking case. All the knives though, would be better than being unarmed. Locke does share the knives with the others in follwing episodes. He also tries to teach the use of them to Walt. The gathering of food was facilitated by having this case of weapons available, because of Locke. Locke himself does not seem to overly interested in firearms later in the series. Also there are not any disputes or fears "who has a knife (ie -deadly weapon)" Way of the Blade- Seven Samurai...You won't believe this, but there was a thread that identified every knife in Locke's case. I'll see if I can find it and post a link.

But I love all of the Akira Kurosawa epics, and Seven Samurai maybe his best.


I like to listen also says:...My point is that most of the 815s acts like a cowboy with the guns, it gives them power hence the disputes. Because the the power derives from the the weapon not the person. Shannon , Charlie, etc.. Locke gives up his weapon to Sayid (Locke could care less) Why does Sayid want it..IMO bcause Locke is the power, a firearm makes him even more of a threat to Sayid. "The Magnificent Seven" probably wasn't released in Iraq. -pun..Most definitely! That's the reason Jack wanted them under lock (-pun) and key.

I've said it in several threads, Sayid doesn't trust Locke as far as he can throw him. But he has admitted, even to Locke, "...I sense you might be our best hope of surviving here..."

[Brian]

Hodge,
It was speculated some time ago, that he may've got all of these skills from books and or the internet.
True, and he may very well have. As I mentioned to Zambini earlier, I just assumed that Locke's condition and the wheelchair were synonymous. Perhaps they aren't. There's always a chance Locke had the opportunity to perfect his physical skills before he found himself in the wheelchair. That preparation time could also account for his actions/tone when he was told he couldn't go on Walkabout.
I think he may've been directed to Jack's predicament by the island. Call it intuition or whatever.
That's the explanation I was aiming for. I suppose I should have just come right out and said it! :)
I think you can contribute this incident to one of his dreams/visions/hallucinations. We need a name for these things?
I agree. Hmm....dreams/visions/hallucinations. How about hallucinations/visions/dreams or, HAVIDs for short? Just a thought. Easier than typing out the whole thing. Time to update the LOST dictionary.

Thanks for the response Hodge! :)

[athywithak]

Yes Leuthen that's what I was thinking you were getting at about Locke "doing without thinking."

We all agree he's manipulative, but the reasons behind the manipulation are what's up for grabs. He MAY have saved Sayid's life, although that isn't the reason he gave Sayid, and I don't like people who aren't up front, which is why I was slamming my man Locke when I said he just wants to stay "plain and simple." Goods thing I am watching and not living on craphole island.

I don't actually think Locke acts in self-interest, and I think the "doing without thinking" / instinct thing is all about his shamanism. He's in the groove with the island. Except for his unhealthy obsession with the hatch, I'm ready to back Locke in the Great Island Split of Season 2.

While looking up shamanism, I found this good one, a quote from Joseph Campbell (who I always found alittle annoying but haven't read since I was young):

Joseph Campbell described the essential difference between priest and shaman: "The priest is the socially initiated, ceremonially inducted member of a recognized religious organization, where he holds a certain rank and functions as the tenant of an office that was held by others before him, while the shaman is one who, as a consequence of a personal psychological crisis, has gained a certain power of his own." (1969, p. 231)

I am uncomfortable with this unelected power, but I agree with Sayid on the best survival hope thing. <Refraining from comments on democracy and current events here.>

What's interesting about the quote is the "personal psychological crisis," eh? DOES tie in with your crazy ride, Leuthen.

that website was :
encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Shaman (http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Shaman)

edited to add: shaman literally means "he who knows."

-K

[LostInWilderness]

Pre-island Locke was full of weakness and rage right before the plane crash. His converstation with Helen and the travel guide make that clear. I find it extremely hard to believe that any man that angry and weak could have gained his skills through training. I still believe my spiritual epiphany theory to the best explanation. Locke was reborn in a very spiritual way during the crash.

[athywithak]

knives info here:
(scroll till you see the photo of them)

p073.ezboard.com/flostthe...2139.topic (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=2139.topic)

a parallel thread in general if you haven't seen it

K

[Brian]

K,

You've been doing your homework! :) Well, even I have to admit I've used outside written sources for some of my posts in regards to Locke. That said,
We all agree he's manipulative, but the reasons behind the manipulation are what's up for grabs.
Exactly! I don't think his actions are really up for debate at this point as much as his motivations for his actions are. That's what I meant when I said he acts unconciously from time to time. He doesn't sit down in a dark corner, behind a palm tree, feeding bananas to polar bears and plot this stuff out. He just does what he feels is the right thing to do. It's what makes him feel that, that I was discussing.
Goods thing I am watching and not living on craphole island.
Ain't that the truth? Even if I were there, I'd be Locke's shadow. Talk about keeping a line of sight with someone. If I were there, Jack and Kate would have had to rescue two people from that pit! :)
He's in the groove with the island. Except for his unhealthy obsession with the hatch, I'm ready to back Locke in the Great Island Split of Season 2.
That's an interesting way of putting it. I'd like to think he's in sync with the island but groove works pretty darn good as well! :) As much as I love his character, I have to agree, finally, that his obsession with the hatch was a bad character turn for him. I don't know what TPTB were thinking when they placed that OCD on him in regards to the hatch. I didn't like that character twist and I'm really hoping it's over. That said, we all know it's not, I just hope it's tuned down a bit next season. I want the old Locke back dammit! :)
I am uncomfortable with this unelected power, but I agree with Sayid on the best survival hope thing.
Yeah, you and me both. Sayid is definitely becoming the voice of reason in the destiny twin confrontation. Hopefully they'll both listen to him in the future. I'm feeling better every episode in my comments about Sayid being the possible second leader in the split, especially after seeing the foundation being built in House Of The Rising Sun tonight. I won't go into it here, but I discussed it briefly in the Episode Rerun Forum on this episode.
What's interesting about the quote is the "personal psychological crisis," eh? DOES tie in with your crazy ride, Leuthen.
:lol Yes it does. This is possibly the first in depth theory about any character I've ever presented here. I posted it here, rather than T&S, because I think it relates to this thread, meaning, the parties involved. I guess I should have spoken more carefully when I compared Locke to Jason Bourne. I was comparing them in their infancy as far as characters go, not in overall story line development. Anyone who's seen the Bourne movies knows that he quickly starts putting pieces together and then finds his motivation/background for his skills. I guess I should have compared Locke's abilities to Jason's when he was awakened in the park by the police. It was a "Huh! Look what I can do!" versus "Why can I do this?" kind of moment.

Thanks K!

[Brian]

LIW,
If you use a radio you die.
Glad you edited that. When I first read it earlier tonight I was wondering what a radion (or however it was spelled) was? :lol

That said, after you edited it, it makes it even funnier! :lol

How true! Too bad Locke couldn't knock Boone out and drag him out of the Beechcraft!

[Brian]

LIW
Locke was reborn in a very spiritual way during the crash.

A rebirth by fire, so to speak? Interesting.

[athywithak]

Speaking (typing) of homework, I DID got through all the numbers info to follow up on our discussion of how each of the hatch four may react to Hurley's (hopefully) impending revelation about the numbers, but I couldn't find any COMPELLING links to the numbers which would be obvious to the characters themselves beyond what we already discussed/know, such as Kate's reward money or Jack's seat.

Anyone else think of or find any numbers strongly related to Locke?

I was thinking similar thoughts about Sayid's leadership in the rerun and was heading to the rerun forum for same myself. Cool.

K

[Hodgepodge]

Hodgepodge says:You won't believe this, but there was a thread that identified every knife in Locke's case. I'll see if I can find it and post a link.I like to listen, I found that thread I was referring to. You can read all about Locke's knives here (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm25.showMes sage?topicID=89.topic).

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen says:...don't think his actions are really up for debate at this point as much as his motivations for his actions are. That's what I meant when I said he acts unconciously from time to time. He doesn't sit down in a dark corner, behind a palm tree, feeding bananas to polar bears and plot this stuff out. He just does what he feels is the right thing to do. It's what makes him feel that, that I was discussing...I think we're giving Locke to much credit. His motivations are not necessarily his own. And how he acts maybe under the same auspices.

Locke is acting on behest of the island. When he receives one of his "havid's" he makes his intentions known. Take for instance his "havid" about the Beechcraft. That next morning he gathered his son, and they were off. And Leuthen you're right! Locke didn't ponder the ramifications of that particular "havid" and we ended up saying goodbye to Boone. I'm sure you're going to blame that damn hatch, and you maybe right. But I'm looking back over his incidents, and they all seem rushed.


Leuthen also says:...As much as I love his character, I have to agree, finally, that his obsession with the hatch was a bad character turn for him. I don't know what TPTB were thinking when they placed that OCD on him in regards to the hatch. I didn't like that character twist and I'm really hoping it's over. That said, we all know it's not, I just hope it's tuned down a bit next season. I want the old Locke back dammit!...That's because you like the all-knowing Locke. The Locke who showed no flaws. The Locke who never showed anger or fear. The Locke who felt he knew the inside joke.

I liked that Locke as well! But the idea he's fallible appeals to me too. I've said throughout this first season, we've learned to love and hate these characters. Flaws and all!

[Zambini Stardust]

This thread is wandering off the topic of Jack and Locke and the hatch, but the direction it is taking is really just an expansion of that original topic. I am enjoying everyone's comments. Thanks for the intelligent thoughts and words.

In the re-run of House of the Rising Sun last night, I was particularly impressed by the encounter between Jack and Sayid when Jack and Kate were returning from the watering hole and Jack informed Sayid that a unilateral decision had been made to relocate everyone to the caves. Sayid's reaction didn't impress me that much the first time the episode aired, but omigosh in light of everything that has happened since it certainly did impress me! These reruns are actually kind of cool.

So I definitely see a split forming between Sayid and Jack. First, the all-to-the-caves thing and the physical split between them that ensued. Second, the two of them tortured Sawyer and that made Sayid feel guilty - I'm sure he will hold that against Jack. Third, Sayid wanted Jack to talk Locke out of opening the hatch but Jack agreed with Locke on opening it. And finally, Sayid appears to me to be much more spiritually and emotionally sound than Jack. Jack is a basket case, teetering on the edge of self-imploding, while Sayid deals with his demons and moves on, always going forward. I think he will lose faith in Jack's leadership and start opposing him.

[Zambini Stardust]

Sorry for the second post, but I just thought of something else that impressed me much more last night than in the first airing of HOTRS...when Charlie first noticed Adam and Eve in the cave and made some comment about them, Locke walked over and said something to the effect of "why didn't we all know about this?" Those weren't his words, but his tone of voice and the look he shot Jack was a real foreshadowing of their encounter following the disclosure of the hatch to Jack later in the season. Remember when Jack asked Locke why he hadn't shared this info, and Locke shot back "I don't report to you," and Jack retorted "you lied," and Locke challenged Jack about keeping the marshall's guns a secret from everyone else. So, in addition to the guns, Jack also withheld info about Adam and Eve, and Kate's prisoner history. I don't think Locke trusts Jack any more than Jack trusts Locke, but they will somehow overcome that to stick together against an uprising led by Sayid and possibly Sawyer or Michael.

[Brian]

Hodge,
Locke is acting on behest of the island. When he receives one of his "havid's" he makes his intentions known.
While I agree with your premise, I have a question for you. I don't mean to pin you down to specifics, rather generalities with this one. How much of what Locke does do you think is Locke, and how much is havid? Me, I'd like to think it's about a 60/40 split with the 60 being attributed to havid's, and thereby the island, and 40 just Locke being Locke. If anything, I'd change that number to credit more of the island but I'm trying to be reserved in my judgement.
I liked that Locke as well! But the idea he's fallible appeals to me too. I've said throughout this first season, we've learned to love and hate these characters. Flaws and all!
Don't get me wrong, Locke is my favorite character, flaws and all! It's just that in re-watching these older episodes, especially HoTRS last night, I'm beginning to see how much he changed after the discovery of the hatch. It's almost as if the hatch put blinders on Locke in a way. I guess maybe I'd just like to see more the the pre-hatch Locke next season. More of a blend of the two, if you will.

At the same time I'm noticing how the hatch changed Locke, I'm also appreciating the early signs of conflict with the destiny twins, and how that hasn't changed at all, only grown and developed. It's showing up early and I didn't even realize it the first time around probably because I wasn't looking for it.

Also, earlier in this thread, we were discussing which of the destiny twins would be the first to enter the hatch and I mentioned that Sayid would tire of the bickering, sidestep them both, and go first. After HoTRS last night, I'm feeling even better about that idea. The meeting of the minds, if you will, between Jack, Kate, and Sayid regarding the move and the Michael/Jin situation lays the early groundwork for Sayid becoming a leader as well. We all pretty much agree that Locke doesn't aspire to be a leader, at least not in the way he's guiding Jack to be. Again, during this meeting of the minds last night, Locke was doing what Locke does best, dealing with the spiritual and emotional (i.e. Charlie), and less with the physical (i.e. the caves, the water, the move).
-----------------------
Zambini,
Sorry to wonder off topic from time to time. I actually wrote a response to you earlier but it was lost somewhere. I've incorporated my response to you into this response to Hodge. I try to keep everything in this thread related to Locke, Jack, and the hatch or at least some combination of the three and their relationships. I think that's the original thought behind this thread.

[Hodgepodge]

Zambini Stardust says:...Sayid's reaction didn't impress me that much the first time the episode aired, but omigosh in light of everything that has happened since it certainly did impress me! These reruns are actually kind of cool.

So I definitely see a split forming between Sayid and Jack. First, the all-to-the-caves thing and the physical split between them that ensued. Second, the two of them tortured Sawyer and that made Sayid feel guilty - I'm sure he will hold that against Jack. Third, Sayid wanted Jack to talk Locke out of opening the hatch but Jack agreed with Locke on opening it. And finally, Sayid appears to me to be much more spiritually and emotionally sound than Jack. Jack is a basket case, teetering on the edge of self-imploding, while Sayid deals with his demons and moves on, always going forward. I think he will lose faith in Jack's leadership and start opposing him...I'm with you on this thread ZS. As I've said earlier, it's the best thread this summer.

I know what you mean about that look Sayid gave Jack. And what says more than that look was what Sayid said. "Is there a reason you didn't consult us when you decided to form your own civilization?"

Sayid's reasoning is sound as well. "Our best hope of survival is in being spotted by a plane or a ship, and for that we need to organize everyone to keep that signal fire burning while others scout the island for supplies. Digging in anywhere else is suicide." I wan't to comment on this last statement.

Remember Sayid is a soldier. Putting yourself in a position where you have no way to maneuver or retreat is suicide.


Leuthen asks:...I don't mean to pin you down to specifics, rather generalities with this one. How much of what Locke does do you think is Locke, and how much is havid? Me, I'd like to think it's about a 60/40 split with the 60 being attributed to havid's, and thereby the island, and 40 just Locke being Locke. If anything, I'd change that number to credit more of the island but I'm trying to be reserved in my judgement...I think it's more than that. Maybe 80/20, if not more! There are some on the board who feel this figure is 100%.


Leuthen says:Don't get me wrong, Locke is my favorite character, flaws and all! It's just that in re-watching these older episodes, especially HoTRS last night, I'm beginning to see how much he changed after the discovery of the hatch. It's almost as if the hatch put blinders on Locke in a way. I guess maybe I'd just like to see more the the pre-hatch Locke next season. More of a blend of the two, if you will...Oh he definitely became obsessed. I do think he'll return to his norm once he/we've explored the hatch. Now that may take the majority of season 2, but I'm willing to wait and enjoy the journey.

[Brian]

Hodge,
Maybe 80/20, if not more! There are some on the board who feel this figure is 100%.
Yeah, there are those who feel he's totally consumed with/by the island at this point. The reason I chose such a low number is because watching all of these earlier episodes, Locke showed a lot of, well, Locke. He was very fluid with his actions. Very subtle, almost to the point of being invisible at times. Like when he told Jack about wanting to stay at the caves to help Charlie sort through the wreckage. As we view that scene in the now, we know that was a complete fabrication and Jack didn't even act like he was going to question it. If they found the caves in Ep 1 of Season 2 and the same scene from HoTRS occurred, no way would Jack leave Locke alone with anyone or anything. (caves = hatch)?

It's good to hear that you think he'll be returning a bit to his old self in Season 2. I think so as well and I'd welcome the reversal of his character a bit.

Whether we like it or not, the hatch is now just as large a factor in our characters actions as the others or any other perceived threat. Yeah, threat. That's how I think a lot of the 815's are going to see the hatch. Why? It's part of the unknown. A cave is a natural occurring entity, so it's at least partially familiar. The hatch is completely different and our 815's aren't going to embrace that idea as readily as they would/did the caves. I think the hatch is actually going to cause a lot of the 815's to go the way of exploration of the rest of the island. I think it's going to repel more than it's going to attract, if that makes any sense. I say that from the viewpoint of one of the 815's on the island, not a viewer of LOST.

Locke is going to have to differentiate himself from the hatch if he's going to have any influence as the shaman role some of us think he's going to become. Obsession and fixation aren't traits that compel others to align themselves with you, or even feel comfortable with you, and that is, unfortunately, what Locke became in the waning episodes of Season 1. Perhaps Locke over-obsessed about one of his havid's about the hatch. Maybe he misinterpreted what the island was trying to tell him and that misinterpretation took him over. I've said all along that he didn't seem himself in the final episodes, especially Exodus.

I think he needs to take a time out, sit back, relax, do some deep-breathing, and re-evaluate himself. We all get obsessed from time to time but when it takes over your every action, that's when it becomes a problem. Locke needs to re-channel his motivations and keep all other 815's away from possible falling objects lest TPTB have to re-cast LOST! :) I can't take any more characters disappearing/dieing needlessly ala Boone. There were far better ways for Jack and Sayid to find out about the hatch other than a character's death.

OK, I'm rambling/straying at this point and I'll stop! :) (I apologize for seeming to ramble. I'm trying to keep my thoughts about this straight while trying to keep up with Hurricane Dennis, which appears due to come through my front yard early next week. We're still dealing with TS Cindy and it's after effects right now. Looks like we're in for even more. Category 4? Geez I'd love to *kick* Mother Nature in the shin right about now.)

[I like to listen]

Thanks for the links on the knives,
IMO , it does not matter what the other knives were except in the context, that they were readily accessible, they were not coveted as weapons (as the guns were), the quantity (7) , and the one Locke chose to make his point, the Bowie. It was not the one to gut fish or saw trees it was the one named after a leader. Locke in essence, even tells Walt- Be the knife, during his tutorial of knife throwing. I think that some weight should be given to the foresight of having the knives available, the sharing amongst the 815s of them, and the ease of screen time devoted to their existence on the island.

It is strange that a non-ambulatory person would pack, close combat knives. Granted he could not bring a firearm to Australia, but why bring 7 knives, when you have only 2 hands.

It is as strange as the Marshal and his 5 guns. His reason never set well with me, concerning Kate, he also only has 2 hands. Add the smugglers gun, and we total 7 knives and 6 guns possessed by the 815s, 13 total. This is the amount needed to arm the major characters sans Boone. What would of made sense based on origin of the weapons, would be one/two knives from Locke and one/two pistols from the Marshal.

Hence the amount has been revealed for some further purpose, or defines a group/spilt of the 815s.
This is reveled on several levels;
1. Knives kill boars you can eat, guns kill polar bears you don't.
2. Those that wield the knife are skilled in the use, those that use guns are unskilled or their skill lacks (Shannon missed, Charlie had to empty his clip, Sawyer couldn't kill an immobile dying man or out draw someone at the "white of their eyes distance," Sayid the soldier and his missing firing pin).
3. Knives are shared, guns are stolen, hid, and controlled.

Locke, is identified/foreshadowed at many levels by the moment directly after reveling the knives in the case.

"Who is this guy?"

He becomes that Locke we know and love at this point, he make things happen, vs- thing happen to him. The knives/ guns(13) our metaphors and clues the writers have used to develop the responses of the main characters (13) to their situation on the island.

And in the finale at the hatch,Locke is next to the one who earns his living with a blade, but chooses a gun now.
Locke was never lost, he just went off the map. Jack doesn't even have a map.

I wish that I could convey these thoughts better, because I feel the writers have used these weapons as much as the white/black , light/dark, left/right, apple/orange methaphors. Alot of speculation has been written regarding those contrasts and how they relate to the scripting, but weaponry clues seem to be overlooked even though they provide alot of drama throughout the season. Maybe the world we live in has made us to jaded to recognize these as valid metaphors, so we we seek the classical ones as they are rare and foreign in modern broadcast tv.

If you want to appear intelligent quote lines from Shakespeare not Gunsmoke.

[Hodgepodge]

Leuthen says:...OK, I'm rambling/straying at this point and I'll stop! (I apologize for seeming to ramble. I'm trying to keep my thoughts about this straight while trying to keep up with Hurricane Dennis, which appears due to come through my front yard early next week. We're still dealing with TS Cindy and it's after effects right now. Looks like we're in for even more. Category 4? Geez I'd love to *kick* Mother Nature in the shin right about now.)Damn! You make sure to keep us abreast of the goings on. I know since you've mentioned it, I'm going to be watching weather reports and praying for you guys safety.


I like to listen says:...It is strange that a non-ambulatory person would pack, close combat knives. Granted he could not bring a firearm to Australia, but why bring 7 knives, when you have only 2 hands.

It is as strange as the Marshal and his 5 guns. His reason never set well with me, concerning Kate, he also only has 2 hands. Add the smugglers gun, and we total 7 knives and 6 guns possessed by the 815s, 13 total. This is the amount needed to arm the major characters sans Boone. What would of made sense based on origin of the weapons, would be one/two knives from Locke and one/two pistols from the Marshal...You know, I've never looked at it like this. You make very valid points.

Why does a man who's in a wheelchair needs 7 knives! Why did the Marshal really bring 5 guns! Excellent questions.


I like to listen also says:...Locke, is identified/foreshadowed at many levels by the moment directly after reveling the knives in the case.

"Who is this guy?"

He becomes that Locke we know and love at this point, he make things happen, vs- thing happen to him. The knives/ guns(13) our metaphors and clues the writers have used to develop the responses of the main characters (13) to their situation on the island.So true! When he threw that knife, and it stuck next to Sawyer's head, that's when I became a Locke devotee. And you're right, my first question was. 'Who is this guy?'

[equinox]

Hodgepodge wrote:
"Why did the Marshal really bring 5 guns!"

That question has been puzzling me since I've known what was in the marshal's case. Let's admit it, the reason that the marshal gives to the official at the airport is ridiculous. "Because Kate is dangerous". Ha! And how are 5 guns supposed to help with that? Unless you have people into whose hands you can put them. If you face someone dangerous, the solution is not to have extra guns that you can't even handle, it is to have more people to help you and maybe some different equipment like a bulletproof vest. In fact, a foreign marshal should not even have been walking around Australia with an arsenal of firearms. The capture of a fugitive should have been the job of the Australian police. Even if the marshal was allowed firearms, I can understand having 2 guns, but 5? That sounds like an excuse to bring 5 guns on an airplane. For who? What for? For the guy who took the case under his seat? Was the marshal planning or expecting some illegal or secret operation during the flight?

[Hodgepodge]

You know Austrasiel, there are some here at Lost-TV who feel TPTB had their agents reading some of our posts, and felt it necessary to come up with an answer. And like you, we all feel the answer was bogus. That's one reason some members want them to stay true to Lost, and stay away from Boards.

I remember when the case appeared with the four guns. I said it was a way to introduce guns to the island. A way to setup the ambush of Ethan.

[spooky]

I Like to Listen wrote:
Hence the amount has been revealed for some further purpose, or defines a group/spilt of the 815s. This is reveled on several levels;
1. Knives kill boars you can eat, guns kill polar bears you don't.
2. Those that wield the knife are skilled in the use, those that use guns are unskilled or their skill lacks (Shannon missed, Charlie had to empty his clip, Sawyer couldn't kill an immobile dying man or out draw someone at the "white of their eyes distance," Sayid the soldier and his missing firing pin).
3. Knives are shared, guns are stolen, hid, and controlled.
I really like this and never quite thought about the different ways the knives and guns are used. I've posited before that Locke's big mistake was picking up the gun, and dropping his spear, in Homecoming; but I was thinking more along the lines of rejecting nature in favor of technology. But your thoughts make me think maybe it's more about a sort romantic ideal of the warrior/hunter. Knives and spears imply a time where the warrior/hunter was the protector of, and provider for, the community. Whereas, guns imply criminality and random violence. Maybe there's also a connection between close combat and the notion of the honorable warrior -- fighting on a level playing field, up close and personal... rather than shooting some de-humanized enemy from afar.

[Zambini Stardust]

Maybe there's also a connection between close combat and the notion of the honorable warrior -- fighting on a level playing field, up close and personal... rather than shooting some de-humanized enemy from afar.

Then how do we reconcile that with Sayid's past in the torture business? He was definitely up close and personal, and he certainly knew his enemy's name, face, birthplace, everything. And I'm not talking only about his girlfriend, but all the others he tortured. So where does Sayid fit in the Locke/knives/noble vs Jack&Sawyer/guns/savage spectrum?

Same question regarding Jin...he knew the people he beat up. Noble or savage?

[Celtic Ceilidh]

Maybe Sayid and Jin fit into a third category: fists. But it seems to fit more with the savage rather than a noble way of combat.

[athywithak]

After re-viewing The Moth, I am convinced that Locke had a havid about the cave-in and Charlie's role in the rescue. He seemed to know about Charlie's past, too, since he used the words of the priest in the confessional about choices. Locke's story about the moth enlarging a small hole to escape was an exact parallel of what happened. This is why Locke was not helping the diggers. He knew how Charlie and Jack would escape.

I don't want to rerun ya'll to death in here, but this ties in with previous discussions about Kate's motives for constantly volunteering: Toward the end of the ep, Kate looks kinda glum at the prospect of rescue (in a discussion with Jack) - yet she volunteered to set off the bottle rocket and antenna. If Sawyer hadn't been there, would she have fulfilled her role? Is she always volunteering not to atone or suicide but to sabotage?

K

[Hodgepodge]

athywithak says:After re-viewing The Moth, I am convinced that Locke had a havid about the cave-in and Charlie's role in the rescue. He seemed to know about Charlie's past, too, since he used the words of the priest in the confessional about choices. Locke's story about the moth enlarging a small hole to escape was an exact parallel of what happened. This is why Locke was not helping the diggers. He knew how Charlie and Jack would escape...Great minds think alike! I just made the same point in the rerun discussion thread. Also, this may've been a diversion the island and Locke concocted so he could take care of Sayid.

[spooky]

Zambini Stardust wrote:
So where does Sayid fit in the Locke/knives/noble vs Jack&Sawyer/guns/savage spectrum?
You got me there. :) Not tying your enemy up would seem to be a prerequisite for a fair fight. I would only count events on the island in the knife/gun mix, so I wouldn't include Sayid's past (or Jin's), but I do count Sawyer's torture. Sayid certainly failed to live up to the romaticized warrior ideal, so I guess that idea is out. But I'll still be keeping an eye on who's using which kind of weapon and why.

[Nabbs]

Hi first time poster, long time lurker...

I agree that the "hatch" seems to be the entrance to a significantly re-enforced shelter. Whether it is a meant to withstand a nuclear blast (a window on a nuc. shelter would be an odd choice since it would be a weak point) or something else, I was surprised by the fact that a few deteriorated sticks of dynamite (I have some questions about this as well) placed on top of the hatch would cause it to seperate.

Let's examine the hatch. It is made of steel with rivets or bolts around the perimeter, and has a thick glass window in the center. It appears to have one hindge on the top, and as such would open to the outside. The hatch appears to be raised slightly from the rest of the "roof." Since it opens outwards, the weakness of hatch would be seperating vertically from the rest of the entrance. As a result of this, I am extremely skeptical that a few old pieces of dynamite could rip a hatch off of the roof. You would essentially need to place the charges under the hatch to lift it up. Placing a charge on top of the hatch without something for the blast to lift, would leave little damage. In order to seperate that hatch, you would need to have force under it lifting it up.

As a result of this, I am convinced that force seperating the hatch from the entrance, actually came from within the chamber. The fact that the edges of the hatch appear to buckled and point outwards, would lead me to believe that the explosion came from under the hatch -- an area that one would not be able to shove a fiew paces of dynamite in from the outside. Furthermore, damage to the ladder could in fact have come from an explosion inside seperating the hatch. Finally, it would appear that there was more then one explosion -- as such it is completely plausible that

Finally, let's discuss what the purpose of a hatch would be. I really don't believe something designed to survive a nuclear attack would have a window and a hindge, it just wouldn't make sense. However, the hatch could be an entrance to a chamber. A chamber could either be designed to change or sustain a certain pressure (such as in a submarine), or it could be designed to be a secure airlock. If you've ever been on a ship and examined a watertight door, you'll notice that they open outwards from the room they are sealing. They have a large rubber grommet that allows for a seal to be made to allow no water (and in some cases) gases to enter the compartment when sealed. This sealing, actually makes the door even stronger as it is "sucked" down to the wall.

I know I am just rambling, and that writers do not have to follow any rules: but in the "real" world a hatch like that would not blow off it's sealed and dogged entrance with a few non-shaped charges place on the outside. Of course, I am always willing to suspend disbelief :)

-N

[Brian]

Nabbs,

Let me be the first to welcome you to the LOST-TV message boards! I hope you enjoy your visits here! Also, if you or anyone else reading this hasn't seen the movie Armageddon, you're going to be confused in a couple of minutes. Sorry ahead of time. :)

I was surprised by the fact that a few deteriorated sticks of dynamite
Well, I'm not chemist but I did play around with some high explosives while in the Army. The one thing I learned is that high explosives, being chemical in nature, don't necessarily lose their yield over time. Some do but it takes a good while. We have no idea how old the dynamite is that the castaways are using so who really knows? Arzt proved that you should always assume the worst! :)
I am extremely skeptical that a few old pieces of dynamite could rip a hatch off of the roof.
I'll agree with you that the door to the hatch is made to only be opened outward. I think the effect the castaways were going for in this exercise was to separate the hinges, blow them off, if you will. It's kind of like a door on your house. Even if it's locked and deadbolted, if you remove the pins from the hinges, it'll still open.
Placing a charge on top of the hatch without something for the blast to lift, would leave little damage.
Have you ever seen a piece of metal after high explosives have gone off anywhere near it (assuming the hatch door is made of metal)? I have. Although, the hatch door did look a little more crumpled than I expected, it didn't surprise me. If it were me, I would have used a shape charge made out of C4 and blown the entire top of the hatch off. Overkill? Probably, but that's me. (Actually, a C4 ribbon charge around the hinges would have been the best thing to use.) The castaways didn't have that option and used what they had, which even given the fact that they had it, is astounding enough. Anyway, my basic point is, the damage the hatch door had isn't really all that inconsistent with explosives. Even though LOST is on TV, it is still Hollywood! :)
Furthermore, damage to the ladder could in fact have come from an explosion inside seperating the hatch. Finally, it would appear that there was more then one explosion -- as such it is completely plausible that
That's been cited here before, that possibly the explosion damaged the ladder. However, given the construction of the hatch, I just don't see it. Because the explosives were placed outside of the hatch, a majority of the explosive force would have been radiated outward, away from the hatch itself. Remember that "firecracker in your hand" analogy from Armageddon? Kinda like that. I'll agree with you that there was possibly two explosions, but I think they were the two separate charges set by Locke and Jack in relation to the hinges etc.
Finally, let's discuss what the purpose of a hatch would be. I really don't believe something designed to survive a nuclear attack would have a window and a hindge, it just wouldn't make sense.
:lol Yeah, I agree with you on this one. That does seem kinda stupid doesn't it! However, that window took a major blow from the trebuchet that Locke and Boone built and didn't even scratch. That's some pretty tough glass, if it's even glass at all. It's quite possible that it's Lexan, the same stuff that aircraft canopies and race car windshields are made of. They don't label it as bulletproof for nothing! :)
This sealing, actually makes the door even stronger as it is "sucked" down to the wall.
I left the majority of what you wrote before this out of the quote because, yes, I know what those rubber seals are for and what they do. Anyone who has a refrigerator knows as well. Don't think the same theory applies to your refrigerator? Try opening it, closing it and then immediately try to reopen it. It the seal is good, it should be pretty difficult to open that second time. Not impossible, just harder than it was the first time. That's partially due to the temperature difference between the fridge and your kitchen, but the theory's the same.

I've also installed HVAC systems on laboratories that needed either positive or negative pressure in certain rooms. Meaning, when you opened the door, no air could leave the room, kind of what you're talking about with the hatch door being "sucked" down. You open the door and all of sudden you feel as if all the air around you is being "sucked" into the room. That's done for a reason in many instances/buildings and I wouldn't put it past the hatch designers to realize this. Good point and it's possibly why the hatch was so hard to open. The other question you need to ask is, if that's true, what are they trying to keep in?
Of course, I am always willing to suspend disbelief
Well that'll come in handy while watching LOST as I'm sure you have realized! :) I'm torn, really, with your comments about the hatch door, in the real world, not being able to be torn off. The operative words that you used, whether you appreciate it or not, is "non-shaped charges."

Now I don't have time to give an Explosives 101 class here but that's actually a very important aspect of explosives. If you don't direct the force of the explosion toward your goal, you're just wasting time and good explosives! C4 allows you the ability to shape the charge to fit the scenario. You can do the same thing with dynamite, but it takes a bit more prep time. This is something we didn't see in Exodus. To make the dynamite work to the best of its ability, they would have had to place it around the hatch hinges and then place something over the dynamite to direct its force toward the hinges. Remember that "firecracker in your hand" comment from Armageddon earlier? Yeah, just like that. To make the dynamite work to it's best ability, the destiny twins would have had to place the dynamite, and then cover it with dirt, rocks, anything heavy enough to direct the majority of the force of the explosion towards the hatch. To just lay the dynamite on the surface of the hatch and detonate it, well, that's just stupid and ineffective in a "real world" sense. Too bad Arzt wasn't around to clue them in! Just another conspiracy by TPTB! :)

Hope I wasn't too harsh on you N, just going from personal experience but you really brought up a good point with the "shape charges". I hadn't thought about any of that until you mentioned it and you're absolutely right! :)

(ETA - Geez I talk too much sometimes. Sorry this was so long y'all! I didn't realize it 'till I posted it.) :)

[lostmio]

Leuthen:There are only 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary and those who don't.

:lol
It's sooo much simpler than octal (not to mention Russian).

[Brian]

biscuitmom,
It's sooo much simpler than octal (not to mention Russian).
:lol

I would still say binary is simpler than Russian any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Octal? Please don't use that word again! :) Talk about Rube Goldberg devices! Nothing like taking the simple and complicating it. I'm probably going to catch hell from the computer scientists out there for that comment but so be it! :) Thankfully octal died a quiet death, although, from what I've read, it's still around in some form. :( The really sad part is, my favorite number is 8! Contradictory? Yeah, probably. That's just me! (ETA- Wow, I just realized, by even commenting on this, I'm placing myself in that group! Man I need a support group or something......) :lol

I figured, from your other posts on this board, that you'd be one of the ones to pick up on that, the binary thing that is. :) Thanks!

[boonian androphile]

Yes the binary line was clever. However does this mean that Socrates has drunk his final drink? Plato probably added "Well, I would have substituted the untainted wine but I was too busy writing down everything you say. Life or fame---what do you want?" Samuel Johnson wont be as dramatic.

[Nabbs]

Leuthen -- Very interesting response, and not to harsh at all.

Admittedly my knowledge of explosives is limited, having only had the most cursory exposure to them in the military. However, I know hatches and watertight doors :) My point is that if this is a door meant to form an airtight seal, it would be very difficult to stick a charge far enough inside the door enough to cause it to seperate. Furthermore when a door is dogged shut like that, the hinges provide little to no support in keeping the hatch secured. Instead, the actual mechanism for keeping the hatch shut is on the edges of the door and secured firmly against the side of the opening. The only purpose that the hinges serve is allowing the hatch to swing open when not secured...other then that their structural significance, is well insignificant :)

Again, in the real world you would have to drill into the hatch and place a charge inside the hole to get it to seperate. It would be plausible that the hatch had explosive bolts or something to that effect.

Again, I am willing to suspend disbelief :) Who know though, this show has a tendency to have instances occur simultaneously -- so perhaps somebody just happend to blow the hatch at the same time the "destiny twins" placed the explosives on the hindges.

-N

[Brian]

Nabbs,
Leuthen -- Very interesting response, and not to harsh at all.
Thanks, I was afraid I would come across as a know-it-all and that wasn't my intention. Like you, I was only going off of what I learned. That and keep on eye on the safety officers because when they start running, it's time to move! :lol
My point is that if this is a door meant to form an airtight seal, it would be very difficult to stick a charge far enough inside the door enough to cause it to seperate.
Aha! Now it all makes sense! I must have missed that point in you original post but it all makes sense now about the water/air tight seal, opening from the inside, etc. Sorry, I misunderstood you originally. That said, I absolutely agree with you on that. I don't think there's anyway on Earth they could have wedged the dynamite between the hatch door and the hatch itself. Not without blowing themselves up, ala Arzt, in the process. Their best chance would have been to put the dynamite on top of the hinges, or whatever they perceived as the weakest spot, tamp the dynamite, and hope for the best. Sandbags would have worked best but I'm sure they could've found some heavy rocks and such to work just as well.
Furthermore when a door is dogged shut like that, the hinges provide little to no support in keeping the hatch secured. Instead, the actual mechanism for keeping the hatch shut is on the edges of the door and secured firmly against the side of the opening.
Oh, absolutely! I agree. I think they were basically trying to cause as much damage as possible hoping to wreck the locking system as well as the hinges. To consider what they had to work with, I'm actually surprised it worked! They were taking a shot in the dark with their method but it worked. Like I said in my previous post, it is still Hollywood! :lol It had to work or else the timeline of the show would have been screwed up. JMHO of course!
Again, in the real world you would have to drill into the hatch and place a charge inside the hole to get it to seperate. It would be plausible that the hatch had explosive bolts or something to that effect.
Yeah, there's that nasty word again, real life. :) Good thing that's sorta been suspended on the island or else they'd really be in some trouble.
Who know though, this show has a tendency to have instances occur simultaneously -- so perhaps somebody just happend to blow the hatch at the same time the "destiny twins" placed the explosives on the hindges.
Hmm......now there's a theory for ya! How interesting would that be?

Thanks for your response. I'm glad you cleared that up for me about the seal around the door.

[Brian]

boonian,
Thanks! Your Plato reference was funny! :lol Yeah, he was probably too busy writing to actually help, or talk him out of suicide. From a historical stand point, that's probably a good thing. If it weren't for Plato, we wouldn't know nearly as much, if anything at all, about Socrates. At least he, Socrates, took the painless way out. Then again, I don't really know how painless it is to be poisoned to death, I'm just assuming, which is always dangerous! :)

[MyNameIsJamesHardy]

sorry, but doesn't everyone agree that this topic should be made Pinned/Sticky/whatever it's called.

please.


:D

[athywithak]

Sorry JH, I think it's just a regular old thread that will fade away in time, and should. It's one of the best of the summer, that's for sure, but stickied stuff is stuff that's always gonna be handy, I think. Isn't it? Not a mod. Just my 2 cents.

I don't know anything about hatches n explosives at all, but I am excited about the possibility that there was an inside explosion, or that the explosion didn't open the hatch at all - the buckled-out shaft, the broken rungs support that, but the RUSTY rungs and the hanging piece of rope do not.

What would happen if our explosion broke the air-tightness somehow, a tiny hole in the seal or melted it or something? Is that possible? Would it open?

Adding 2nd explosion to my list for rewatching!

K

[Hodgepodge]

MyNameIsJamesHardy asks:sorry, but doesn't everyone agree that this topic should be made Pinned/Sticky/whatever it's called.

please.MyNameIsJamesHardy, let me be the first to welcome you to Lost-TV. I'm sure you're going to enjoy your stay. Make sure to read the Welcome forum, it's easy to get lost.

Like Athywithak says, this is just a usual discussion here at Lost-TV. We have them all the time. Although I do feel, this one will remain near the top of the board through the first couple of episodes of season two. It too will go by the wayside!

[Nabbs]

There must be screencaps of the explosion, hatch door, and ladder out there. If there was a pressure differential inside the chamber, then the explosion would have been magnified as the pressure rushed out the now gaping hole -- much as would happen with depressurization in a plane.

I downloaded the entire season, but unfortunately trashed it rather then burning it onto a dvd (it's 7 discs!), but I do remember the ladder appeared to broken and pointed upwards -- and indication of a explosion from below.

I don't think rust was the cause of the damage, nor was it a result of blowing the hatch. It could be the indication of a previous skirmish that occured below.

As has been hinted on the show, the hatch could be designed to protect the outside from whatever is inside. Perhaps gas or some bio/chem agent? Maybe the hatch is the entrance to an airtight chamber that was threatened to be compromised hence a hasty sealing of the structure?

Anyway, know I'm just flapping my gums without much basis -- but sure is fun :)

-N

[Hodgepodge]

Nabbs asks:There must be screencaps of the explosion, hatch door, and ladder out there...Nabbs, let me add my welcome to Leuthen's. I'm sure you're going to enjoy the community. Make sure and read the Welcome forum, it's easy to get lost. Now to your question!

You could try Lost-media. They ususally have some nice screenshots. I don't go there anymore, got caught by a spoiler shot.