+ Literary Allusions index

[drabauer]

Literature discussed so far is linked to the master index at

Lost Literary Allusions Index (http://www.swedishpoet.com/lostlit.html)

Scattered references are welcome below.

[ragenwulf]

Good job! It is great to see them all in one place -
I would add James Joyce's Ulysses (I mentioned it in my Beowulf posting) since it has the "reversal of Lightness/Darkness" theme and the "search for a father" theme.

[cccourt]

Dr. A...you have outdone yourself. Let's keep this at the top...Xander: put a push pin in it!! Great work. Thanks.
ccc:hat

[Wynter Zera]

Great work! You deserve a cookie!

[bigmouth]

This is just awesome, drabauer. I would add Rousseau's Social Contract, as well as his Discourse on Inequality, though I'm afraid I don't have the links handy.

[cinderellabop]

I also did a short discussion on some similarities to Victor Hugo's Les Miserables. The link is here: p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=104.topic (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=104.topic)

[Vicki]

Good list, but wouldn't it be Literary Allusions rather than Allegories?

[drabauer]

True--some are allegories redoubled--that is, the theory that Lost shadows the plot of a text that is already and allegory (e.g. Paradise Lost or Lord of the flies). Other's are just allusions or shout-outs.

I started with the former and obsessively started adding everything even remotely cited.

DraB

[rockclmber]

Shoot me down if you like but I see a thread of the book needfull things. Each character is getting a resolution to a functionality problem. Whether is physical, relationship, emotional, criminal, etc.

I started thinking this when Lock when from what seemed to be nervous flailing in the woods to great hunter after his meeting with the beast. He afterwords told jack that the island 'has much to offer' or something.

ANYWAY i love the show and have enjoyed everyones postings.

[JacksGirlfriend]

Thanks for the list, dr.
Will you be adding to it as we go?
I think this is one of our more important threads and would love to see some of these topics discussed in more detail.

And no, rockclimber, you will not be shot down. There is a definite parallel. In Needful Things, there was a huge price to pay for what you received and I have a feeling the characters in Lost will have to pay as well.

JacksGirl

[drabauer]

Jacksgirl--yes! See above.

Drab

[jjabramizeme]

what about alluding to the characters in books?

I know there has been some talk of Tom Sawyer (for Sawyer, obviously) and Taming of the Shrew (for Katherine/Kate).

[drabauer]

Yes--please send links! I have one Tom Sawyer posted already, but hadn't noticed the Taming of the Shrew ref

[ragenwulf]

drabauer
i was reading your Dune reference and thought of another one - do you remember when Kate was sewing up Adam's, oops i mean Jack's rib, and he told her the story of his first solo surgery? His story about letting the fear in for 5 seconds and then it is gone is very much like the Littany against fear in Dune:

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

-- Litany against Fear from the Bene Gesserit rite

[drabauer]

Good catch ragenwulf! That's a classic oath for all would-be Messiahs.

I've added it above. I wonder if there's more (I only know the Lynch movie and the sci-fi miniseries, as well as cliff notes; never read the whole thing).

[ragenwulf]

Hmm, maybe the theme of hereditary guilt, i.e. the son pays for the sins of the father. In Dune, the main character is Paul Atreides - Atreides is a name taken from Greek tragedy (see Aeschylus' Oresteia -- Agamemnon pays for the sins of his father Atreus - the family is cursed, in other words, and no matter how good you think Agamemnon is, the "lion in the bloodstrain" will come out).

How does this relate to LOST? I don't know, haha, it just came to mind because of the father theme we have seen being developed. Sorry, this post is not contributing much!

[ragenwulf]

okay, maybe this is a connection:
In Greek literature, particularly Homer, people are often described by an epithet - a handy phrase that sounds nice that is always used to describe that person, e.g. sharp-shooting Apollo, rosy-fingered Dawn, etc.

Agamemnon's epithet is "shepherd of his people". Isn't Shepherd Jack's last name?

Argh, must stop... I am supposed to be studying actuarial science. Neither a borrower nor a lender be...

[Black Dahlia]

Herman Melville's last book was The Confidence Man. From what I could tell (no brief synopsis seems to be available online, although plenty of doctoral theses are) many characters are eerily similar to some of those on "Lost." Recurring themes include characters not presenting themselves as they really are, starting over with a blank slate, characters with control issues, and the symbolism of tattoos.

[drabauer]

No no Agamemnon is a great reference R. Having just referenced him for another project, I have some notes I will reread to see if there are more connections.

The Greeks are always relevant.

And I would love to hear more about the Melville connection.

[ennui]

I mentioned once before that there are several parallels between Charlie and Eddie in The Dark Tower series, by Steven King.

[gscaleta]

the abc site has a lost game and they put it a copy of watership down so that must mean that has something to do with this storyline. Or the writers are reading the posts and screwing with us.

[agentalana]

lots of Biblical refernces... Adam and Eve for one

[Hekawi]

Hi - I am new posting here. I have been looking all over for a place to talk about the literary references, and this looks like the best place.
I don't know if it has to have been actually mentioned on the show (looks like it doesn't) so I wanted to say how much this show reminds me of Jules Vernes 'Mysterious Island' - esp. with the enormous polar bear.

And I keep thinking about John Donne's 'No Man is an Island' theme, and the possible implications of trying out all these different philosophies on this 'Blank Slate'....??

thanks,
H

[99Percent]

What would be ultracool is to specify when or how are the books referenced.

[drabauer]

If you would like to sign on as my administrative assistant, I'll take your offer 99percent! :D

[JacksGirlfriend]

dr: I think you're going to need one.

JacksGirl

[Spirit Shards]

I mentioned this in the "Whose the Randall Flagg Character" poll.
In the Stephen King book The Talisman the main character's name is Jack Sawyer. I think I heard that some of the people working on Lost or closely connected to it are big fans of Stephen King. I also read somewhere that they took some elements from his stories... so I was kinda :eek when I picked up the book and saw that. Pretty weird.
But it's probably just a coincidence.

[spooky]

Am I allowed to just add Thoureau's Walden and Emerson's Self Reliance to the list? I always think about them when I see Locke, but I would have to do a lot of re-reading, or bs-ing, to make a legitimate post about it. (I see homework for spooky...)

SpiritShards: Numfar!!! That episode made me laugh so hard I spit pizza on the floor :D

[Madness11]

I am sticking to the Watership Down allegory - see "Alex" thread.

[JacksGirlfriend]

I see homework for spooky...

Some of us read Emerson a very long time ago... maybe just the highlights.

JacksGirl

[azteclady]

*bump*


drabauer, we love you. Could you update this one too?

Pretty please?



Beto

[drabauer]

Beto, Literary Allusions index #1 has been superceded by Literary Allusions index #2, which I update twice a week:

Lost-tv Literary Allusions Index (http://www.swedishpoet.com/lostlit.html)

There is also a separate page for mixed media: movies, tv, video games:

Lost-tv Media Index (http://www.swedishpoet.com/lostmedia.html)

It's too hard to maintain an index onsite within the restrictions of the ezboard posting format.

:)

[rottenralf]

I think J. M. Barrie's Peter Pan might need to be added. We have Ethan, perhaps Alex as the Lost Boys. Children being seperated from parents. Children being able to do extrodinairy things with happy thoughts (I need to roll a 4 and a 3). Plus, an island is an awfully big adventure.

[azteclady]

drabauer,

I'm posting your two other links in your theories index thread - because otherwise I can't find them anywhere!

Thank you lots for them, by the way!


Beto

[Master Xander]

Saving this thread from death.

[Jillian]

According to another post, Sawyer is actually reading Watership Down. So that may be why it's in the game. But why that book? Well, that takes us back to the discussion at hand.

[matt shoultz]

"I mentioned this in the "Whose the Randall Flagg Character" poll.
In the Stephen King book The Talisman the main character's name is Jack Sawyer. I think I heard that some of the people working on Lost or closely connected to it are big fans of Stephen King. I also read somewhere that they took some elements from his stories... so I was kinda when I picked up the book and saw that. Pretty weird.
But it's probably just a coincidence."

i'd like to get your thoughts on this then:

p073.ezboard.com/flostthe...21&stop=24 (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sageRange?topicID=529.topic&start=21&stop=24)

[Wynter Zera]

bumping

[cccourt]

bump

[cccourt]

bump

[Kimber and Bunny]

Some of the links have 'expired'. :x Tried to check out the Oz link from two different parts of the thread and keep getting error, link expired.

[trinabobina]

I'd like to add "A Prayer for Owen Meany" to this list...tied in to Locke and his "destiny" and everything he has done has led up to this moment on the island...not sure where the phone-sex Helen ties in, though...:\

And, I'm with you, Spooky, on the Emerson connection...very "transparent eyeball" ish

[drabauer]

Just to let everyone know, I only add titles when you have posted an explanation of how the work in questions relates to LOST. For instance, I didn't add Emerson until someone actually posted on how Emerson's philosophy related to Locke. Similarly, I'd be glad to add Owen Meany if you can tell those of us who haven't read it how it ties into Lost.

Thanks everyone!:D

[trinabobina]

sorry 'bout that, dr -- Owen Meany is one of my favorite books, so I forget not everyone has read it. The connection is indirect, so it might not really fit here at all... The book, by John Irving, deals with a odd boy who is convinced he is an instrument of God; he has a specific destiny. He "sees" his destiny as a child, but does not reveal it to others. He does enlist his friend (the book's narrator) to help him perfect "The Shot" -- a strange physical feat -- that is necessary for him to fulfill his destiny (which he ultimately does while in Vietnam).

This drive to fulfill one's destiny easily connects to Locke. Where everything he's done, everything he's learned, has led him to the island and his role amongst the castaways. This "instrument of God" idea, right or wrong, seems to be a part of Owen's and Locke's psyches.

Also -- the book's countless subplots add up to a moral argument, specifically an indictment of American foreign policy--from Vietnam to the Contras. I'd say that Lost is ultimately going to do something similar. The show operates on interesting metaphorical ground. And, I read that "The Twilight Zone" is an influence...

So, that's all. It just reminded me of the character of "Owen Meany."

[drabauer]

Sounds fascinating--it's going up!

[Kimber and Bunny]

Owen was WAY short and Locke had no legs before the crash. The mission, the insight, the foreknowledge and the euphoria of that knowledge....
at first I was thinking WHAT? But, yes, Owen and Locke actually do have a lot in common.

REALLY an awesome book and my fave by Irving. Interesting thought....Owen learns to speak Vietnamese to fulfill his destiny, but does not speak it around friends and family...perhaps Locke speaks a second language and we don't know?

[Wes Cohn]

Something to consider:

If indeed LOST contains a thread of Joseph Conrad, perhaps this quote can shed us some light --

"We live, as we dream -- alone."

[JacksGirlfriend]

"We live, as we dream -- alone."

So Wes - do you think they're living... or dreaming?

JacksGirl

[SoKierkegaard]

As far as I have seen, there has been no mention yet of the Kierkegaardian philosophy, psychology, and ethics in "Lost." As a starter, "The Sickness Unto Death" has particular resonance for the characters and episodes as they have developed thus far. Perhaps Sawyer can be seen as an exemplar of Anti-Climacus' in conscious, defiant, "demonic" despair (in despair, to will to be oneself), in light of his adoption of "Sawyer" as his identity, the identity of his family's destroyer ("If the self in despair is an acting self, it constantly relates itself to itself only by way of imaginary constructions, no matter what it undertakes, however vast, however amazing, however perseveringly pursued"). And perhaps Kate can be seen one who is despairing over the earthly (in actuality, over the eternal)--i.e., one who is in "despair over her weakness"--as reflected by her pursuit of the airplane relic from the safe deposit box, and, later, from the briefcase.

[drabauer]

I love this connection! Please tell us more about Kierkegaardian themes you see in Lost! I have always thought that Kierkegaard was more of an influence on literature and the arts than is generally acknowledged.

[DionysianLady]

I scanned this thread and didn't see this mentioned, so hopefully I'm not duplicating someone else's post.

How about the stories from Arabian Nights? This one specifically:

mfx.dasburo.com/an/a_night_7.html (http://mfx.dasburo.com/an/a_night_7.html)

""O my Prince," answered he, "know that we lost our course on the night of the storm, which was followed on the morrow by a two days' calm during which we made no way, and we have gone astray eleven days' reckoning from that night, with ne'er a wind to bring us back to our true course. Tomorrow by the end of the day we shall come to a mountain of black stone hight the Magnet Mountain, for thither the currents carry us willy-nilly. As soon as we are under its lea, the ship's sides will open and every nail in plank will fly out and cleave fast to the mountain, for that Almighty Allah hath gifted the loadstone with a mysterious virtue and a love for iron, by reason whereof all which is iron traveleth toward it."

Loadstone = lodestone = magnetite = black rock.

[mystjade]

Yes, A prayer For Owen Meany (one of my all time favorite books) Does make seance.

Also applicable are the books of John Whyndam, An English Novelist who wrote horror/supernatural/ Sci fi novels.

The children in his book tend to have superpowers. In the midwhitch Cuckoo's, the kid's are basically dangerous mind linked alien's with the power to control humans.

In the chrysilds, the children are good persecuted by a community that fears abnormalities. The children in the Chryslids speech using there minds eye.

Does this remind anyone else of Walt?

[Bushwoods]

For the poster asking how the phone-sex worker "Helen" works into all this. How about the face that launched a thousand ships? In the Iliad, Paris steals Helen from Sparta and brings her back to Troy, this is something Locke was trying to do in taking "Helen" with him to the outback. Where Paris succeeded, Locke did not.

[Bushwoods]

I also see a very clear parallel between many of the characters on Lost and many of the characters from Greek Mythology. Jack and Kate would be the twins, Apollo and Artemis.... Sawyer would be the thief Hermes. Sayid, the god of war and technology, Ares. Shannon would be Aphrodite. Sun would be the motherly Vestia. Ethan would be Hades, Persephone (his wife, whom he abdcuted) would obviously be Claire. Hurley would be either Dionysus or Silenus.

[drabauer]

Excellent! It has been ages since someone contributed to our long-ago discussion of Greek mythology.

I love ALL of the connections you draw.

I am going to quote this in the "parallel myths" thread to bring it to a wider audience.

[SoKierkegaard]

It will interesting to see how the Kierkegaardian theme of "repetition" may be developed in the series (i.e., loss and restoration, or, as Edward Mooney describes it, "getting the world back"). Like Job having his world taken from him and then getting it back, and Abraham releasing Isaac and getting him back, the characters have suffered loss and may find restoration. Also, Mooney notes that we are told in Kierkegaard's papers that, "at its highest, repetition gives up the idea of self-sufficiency. Realizing that the outcome of our search for roots or love or world is not under our control may be a necessary condition of openness toward emerging roots or love or world, and hence the satisfaction of the need." (Mooney, in Cambridge Companion to Kierkegaard, at 290). Perhaps, on the island, dispelled of the illusion of self-sufficiency, in faith the characters will regain their lost worlds.

[jcrew1179]

How come a lot of the Theories Links don't work? Have those posts been deleted?

[drabauer]

Yes, jcrew, and I have PLEADED with the mods to tell me where they go, but none of them keep track. Most are in the archives somewhere, and when I have time I look for them.

PLEASE ANYONE PM ME if you find a lost thread!

[Chance Gardener]

Deleted to promote harmony.




I like to watch

[trinabobina]

Okay -- here's a fantastic book that has some great connections to our Lost... "Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World" by H. Murakami. If you haven't read it, pick it up. Here's a synopsis I borrowed from the internet...(the underlines and bolds are mine)

...One storyline follows the Calcutec (main character) as his job, past and future turn out to be far more complex than he imagined, while the other unfolds in the parallel fantasy world of The Town, an isolated place of unicorns and lost selves, surrounded entirely by a threatening, mysterious Wall (the island).

The Calcutec's latest assignment draws him deep beneath the city (the hatch), into the hidden sanctuary of a former government scientist (Danielle) who specializes in the rewiring of human minds. In an information war between the government (The System) and private industry (The Factory), what could be a more effective way of protecting data than by shuffling it through the utterly unique pathways of a human brain? The Calcutec happens to be the sole remaining survivor of a group of human guinea pigs (a common Lost theory)on whom such experiments have been conducted, and he finds himself threatened on both sides by the System and the Factory, and forced to trust the eccentric scientist and his granddaughter.

In the Town, we follow the story of a lost, confused narrator who doesn't know why he's here, or what his purpose may be. The townfolk provide vague guidance, but offer no clues to his identity or origin.

Ultimately, the two story lines converge in the end. It is truly a master work of sci-fi/fantasy. The jacket states it's a meditation on the nature and uses of the mind. I'm going to re-read it this week (I read it over ten years ago) and do some more comparisons. Anyone else hear read it/heard of it? It was all the rage to read when I was in college (back in the day).

[llywrch]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Also applicable are the books of John Whyndam, An English Novelist who wrote horror/supernatural/ Sci fi <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->
Did he also write Day of the Trifids?[/quote]

Day of the Triffids is Wyndham's best-known novel. There's a faithful adaptation for television by the Australian Broadcasting Company. (Sadly, not available on either VHS or DVD.)

Geoff

[fascinated]

Can someone please link me to a discussion of the Sphere theory? The media, movie, etc... section of the index sends me elsewhere and the Sphere links on the literary allusions index dont work.

I just re-watched the movie yesterday and was interested in reading about how it may relate to Lost. I assuming there's an extensive discussion on that theory somewhere on here. However, i've been unable to find it.

Thanks in advance for your time.

[Chance Gardener]

Deleted to promote harmony.




I like to watch

[Anna Raven]

Hello I am new. :)

Just wanted to add a reference that hasn't been listed yet. Michael's kid had a Spanish language Flash/Green Lantern comic book. you can read a summary of the issue here.

www.glcorps.org/alien-x.html (http://www.glcorps.org/alien-x.html)

Coolies. ok thanks, this site looks great :)

[thoughtform]

After last nights ep I think we can add "A Wrinkle In Time" by Madeline L'engle. Wasnt that the book Sawyer was reading by the raft?

[Cassis1]

Another Heart of Darkness reference last night--Charlie said something about Hurley going "all Kurtz in the jungle."

[sawyerhasbestlines]

I would add Jame's Glick's "Chaos Theory", though it's non fiction.

[awff7]

Maybe you guys can include "The Hunting of the Snark" by Lewis Carroll, too. Two of the six numbers in Hurley's episode are mentioned in that work. Maybe it's just a coincidence...


Just so you know, here's the place where "The Hunting of the Snark" is mentioned:
p073.ezboard.com/flostthe...1&stop=218 (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sageRange?topicID=1364.topic&start=201&stop=218)

[kiwipat]

Has anyone read Mount Analogue an allegorical novel by Rene Daumal?

In the book, according to a Net article I found, Daumal and a group of like-minded characters determine that the mountain (a symbol of the unattainable and impossible) exists on a huge island in the South Pacific, hidden by a mysterious force field that bends light rays around the peak. They form an expedition to find the island and climb the peak.

I see clear relevance here to the show. But perhaps someone who has actually read the book can give us more insight.

The full article I have cited can be found here: Introduction to Mount Analogue (http://sangre-de-cristo.com/westcliffe/stories/Introduction_to_Mount_Analogue.htm)

[ProfStokes]

I'd like to suggest another Herman Melville book for the index if it hasn't yet been mentioned elsewhere: Moby Dick.

Sawyer's obsession with finding and killing the man who destroyed his family (also represented by the boar in "Outlaws") is similar to Capt. Ahab's quest to find and destroy the white whale that caused him to lose his leg. Both Moby and the boar seem preternaturally intelligent for mere animals. In Ahab's case, none of his sailors could persuade him to turn back and abandon his thirst for vengeance, and all (except Ishmael) perished. Fortunately, Sawyer allowed himself to be persuaded by Kate and Locke to give up on the boar, and walked away.

[llywrch]

I'd like to suggest another Herman Melville book for the index if it hasn't yet been mentioned elsewhere: Moby Dick.

Some other Melville novels worth considering would be his earliest books: Typee, Omoo, & Mardi. All recount adventures on islands in the south pacific by a pair of marooned sailors. While the first is strongly autobiographical, the next two tend to be more allegorical in tone.

Unfortunately, I've only read the first one decades ago in college, & know the other two only from what my classmates reported at the time. But if someone would make the effort to read them & offer an opinion about their relevance, I'm sure it would be appreciated.

Geoff

[llywrch]

The repeated mentions & speculations about the "Black Rock" have always reminded me of Robert Browning's poem "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came", but it was only today that I finally followed up this connection by re-reading this poem. And the first stanza sent a shiver of recognition up my spine (italics mine):

My first thought was, he lied in every word,
That hoary cripple, with malicious eye
Askance to watch the workings of his lie
On mine, and mouth scarce able to afford
Suppression of the glee, that pursed and scored
Its edge, at one more victim gained thereby.

If there is a further connection, we might not see it until next season. But based on this one stanza, I feel this has to be listed as a candidate as an allusion.

Google brought up at least 10 on-line copies under that title. The URL of the first one I found was: www.bluejo.demon.co.uk/po...ms/rol.htm (http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk/poetry/poems/rol.htm)

Geoff

[kiwipat]

I would like to submit the H.P. Lovecraft story “The Call of Cthulhu” for inclusion in the index.

Cthulhu (a monster residing on a mysterious Pacific island) & the story are briefly mentioned in the thread HP Lovecraft & the "monster"? (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1532.topic)

[PinkysBrainX]

It's actually Childe Roland, not Childe Harold but I wouldn't be surprised if it plays into the show. This poem was Stephen King's inspiration for his "Dark Tower" series. Roland Deshain is the name of the main character in the series and The Dark Tower is his quest. This poem is also printed at the end of book 7, "The Dark Tower". We already know some facination with Stephen King on at least one of the writers behalf has worked its way into the show, so I'm sure you're right about the poem. I didn't take notice before but wow, that first verse is telling.

[Mellis12]

I posted this on Leah's thread, but I thought maybe I should add it here, too. Prince Caspian is another text that we should add to the list.

When I was in Hawaii I found a script from LOST in the sand at the location site. Most of the script is from Duex Ex Machina. On the top is stapled a call sheet which lists items that will be needed for that day's shoot. Prince Caspian is listed as a prop for Sawyer, along with his glasses. I think Sawyer continues to read A Wrinkle in Time in the actual episode, but Prince Caspian was the intended text.

Prince Caspian is one of CS Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia. It deals with time/dimension travel.

[llywrch]

You're right, Pinky. Fixed it. Thanks for the correction.

Geoff

[Crusoe2k]

I notice that the links referring to The Tempest are dead. Anyway to bring back those threads?

[jekelish]

New reference (http://p073.ezboard.com/flosttheunofficalforumfortheabcseriesfrm29.showMes sage?topicID=1764.topic)

i don't know how viable this one is, but one of our posters has referenced a series called "The Dungeon" a few posts down. if you feel like adding it in...go for it.

:hat

[Gambit980]

All right well, I probably should put this in the speculation section, but I am only going to discuss how the book is like the show. Anyway this show reminds me of a book series by Tad Williams called Other-land. The book take place in the future. The web has increase in size and ability, most people log into the net with a spinal cord connection. The net is like matrix in that you are able to jack into it the same way as the movie. There are several kids getting sick and the problem is spreading throughout the net. The parts that correlate with lost are each one of the characters becomes lost in the net as they are trying to investigate the mysteries. The story structure is also the same in that you think there can be no connection between all of the characters and it turns out there is. Anyway I think it is a good book and it has a lot of similarities to Lost. But you don't have to take my word for it :)
ps
Neil you would definitely be interested in this book. If you haven't read it you need to read it, as it is enjoyable and straight up you ally.

[athomascr]

I'd like to add another possibility: John Varley's "Titan" trilogy. Crew of a spaceship are marooned on a Saturn moon after crashing into it. Turns out the moon is alive, intelligent, hollow, and has technology sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic.

"The interior is inhabited by a kaleidoscopic array of intelligent species, musical-genius centaurs , flying pseudo-harpies, and enormous blimp-like creatures. The most startling discovery, however, is that the wheel itself is alive and intelligent, calling itself Gaea -- and that it's more than a little bit insane."


-- absoluteastronomy

[Anna Raven]

In George R.R. Martin's the Song of Ice and Fire series, he has undead ghosts/zombies called "The Others".

Probably just a coincidental spooky/vague term for enemies, but I wonder if one of the writers has read Martin.

[Gadjoproject]

Has anyone read "The Man in the High Castle" by Philip K. Dick?

or "The Crying of Lot 49" by Thomas Pynchon?

For some reason, LOST reminds me of those two works...

[radiohead]

All I can say is WOW!

There are some big brains here.

One book that has eluded the group is "The Shining" by Stephen King.

"Danny" is re-incarnated as Walt in Lost. They both have special gifts largely undetected by adults. Danny could see dead people before Haley Joel Osment in "The Sixth Sense" and was attuned to evil.

Walt's gifts are under-explored thus far and so a full analysis can't be made but there is definitely a connection between Danny's "shining" and Walt's.

[lisalsera]

what if they are not the survivors because they are not really alive? they are LOST, in limbo - neither here nor there (not dead but not alive, and therefore not a "survivor."

this could be a modern-day spin off of Dante's Inferno - limbo, the moster at the gates who protects the entrance to hell (the island, presumably the hatch). they are there to work out whatever issues they have in order to get out of limbo - just look at boone. He had the issue of shannon to work out, and locke was telling him to let go (with the whole sayid thing) - he hullucinated and saw her dead, but in that vision he was able to let go... which took him out of limbo and into "another place." the question is where do these people go afterwards, into the gates of hell to be punished for their crimes in relation to the severity? a crime fit for the punishment...

in Dante's Inferno the crime is related to the punishment - those that practiced gluttony are constantly being gnawed at in hell - they are eaten themselves as they have eaten too much in the mortal world. remember when sawyer was harassed by the boar and at the same time was loosing his vision? the boar could somehow be related to the punishment fitting the crime... and his loss of vision can be a physical punishment for not being able to "see" when he was in the mortal world...

but there is too little information at this point to tell...

"The Others" wording can be a reference to the screenplay - it seems this whole series is about references to other work - like i said Dante's Inferno... Exodus is obviously a biblical reference... and even the name John Locke is a reference to the famous writer/impericist of the same name - the man who coined the term "tabula rasa" which preaches a philosophy that parallels its literal Latin translation, meaning starting with a "clean slate." Notice all Locke's wording about the island allowing you to start anew (as he was saying to Boone right before he let go,had closure and presumable went off into another state of being, or out of Limbo). We also may have some sort of soothsayer here which is typical in literature (mythology, even shakespeare) but with Walt I am unsure how this fits in because enough information is not really given. his ability may be the reason why he was taken... he has a certain vision which makes him special and useful to the "Others" in some way.

regarding why there were people who just plain died on the plane... the people on the plane who died just died because it was there time. only a select few were chosen to be in the state of Limbo in the Inferno. the rest of the passengers who died on oceanic were not that select few and not even an issue. in the inferno, some mortals skip the gates of Hell and go directly to Paradise or whatever... perhaps those passengers are like those mortals as well.

as for the boar and Sawyer, i hardly think Sawyer is in Limbo due to ONLY killing another human by accident. there must be more, as we are finding out with each episode as it unfolds - each "survivor" (again the wording) is there for a special reason that seems more complex that just killing an individual. i have a feeling it is not as cut and dry as that and it gets more complex... perhaps that wasn't even his major "crime"... i guess we will find out more when this story unfolds.

circle 1 or LIMBO in the Inferno features virtuous non-christian adults (like many on the island) in addition to unbaptized infants (obviously claire's baby, rousseau's and who knows who else). also found are many of the great heroes (as the "modern-day" hero sayid, maybe even jack who can we argue is the main character? or main leader??? paralleling dante in the book?), thinkers (locke), even great islamic philosophers (sayid may also represent this). Limbo was also the home of major figures from the hebrew bible (remember the "exodus" reference).

ok... the definition of Allegory: a method of expressing ideas by using a parallel story or images; examples: Dante (he is a character in his own book)wandering in the woods in the midpoint of his life; the situation is an allegory for his personal confusion and lack of direction - these LOST characters are always wandering it seems...

in the Inferno, the leopard, wolf and lion are allegorical beasts (all found at the entrance to hell); each represents a vice which keeps dante from getting to heaven. perhaps the boar of Sawyer was an allegorical beast... representing that crime of sawyer we do not yet know... because if it was only killing another human then he would have a definitive place in Hell already. Kate also killed - but as we are learning her crimes are more complex that that and she is in this so-called Limbo as well - and i think we will find out more complexities of Sawyer...

at the gates of hell there is also human reason represented by a person - Virgil and Beatrice - perhaps who in this series -?

and there is a character who takes dante to the gates of hell (much as the the french woman does) - there is also a river involved... weird that rousseau also takes them to the boat... because in the inferno the sinners are brought to the gates by the boat... also in the inferno the gates of hell are not the ENTRANCE but the EXIT... hmmm

and finally to quite the FIRST SENTENCE canto 1 of The Inferno,

Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita,
mi ritrovai per una selva oscura ché la via diritta era smarrita. translation: Midway through our life's journey / I found myself in a dark wood/ for the straight way was Lost.

ahem, LOST...

[Crandyman]

The one work that instantly came to mind when reading this thread was Geoffrey Chaucers The Canterbury Tales. The book deals with thirty people each with a their own tale and each from a different part of society. Almost every tale deals with morality questions and character flaws much in the same way the show does using the flashback sequences. One of the very few tales that does not feature a character flaw is the Knights Tale. Being a Knight in the late 14th century was highly respected and heroic. This is similar to Jack, who being a doctor conveys the same type of respect and honor in todays society. Most of the other tales deal with the flaws of people. We have already seen morality questions and character flaws in Kate, Charlie, Sawyer and Jin. Does anyone esle see a connection here or am I just reaching?

[drabauer]

Wow, what a fantastic reference Crandyman! I never even considered it but your right, there are many connections there, with the flashbacks, and the variety of social backgrounds represented, as well as the fact that everyone (except the knight) is pretty ambiguous morally. (and the humor, musn't forget) Must go back and read again . . .

Thanks!

[trinabobina]

Crandy, that is a wonderful reference...do any of you know if the writers were English lit majors?

Like Drabauer, I need to revisit Chaucer now that summer is here!

[Mousegirl7]

I love reading everyone's ideas on literary connections. It reminds me of something my collage English professor once said "Fiction is the lie that tells the truth."

Anyway I thought of another reference, the character of Coyote in Native American story telling. Most specifically the story of how coyote got his name. In it the Great Spirit calls all the animal people together to receive their permanent names, which would also determine what their place and function in society would be. Coyote was determined to be first and pick from the best three names, but instead ended up last and the only name not taken was his own. No one wanted that name because it meant imitator or trickster everyone would know him for who he was deceitful and selfish. The Great Spirit talks to Coyote and tells him that he wanted him to have that name for he had an import job that required his cunning. Then the Great Spirit says something to the effect of you will do many great things and for this people will revere you. You will also do many deceitful and selfish things and for this people will mock you. You can not help it, it is your nature. There are many many stories of coyote some about the great things he has done and others of his tricks and downfalls.

This idea of a destiny/rule in life is of course big in the show. But also I see the idea that your bad traits can become your good and helpful traits. (This idea is also in "A Wrinkle in Time" [a book Sawyer reads] Meg is told she must use her bad qualities to save her father.) This reinventing yourself is part of the show. As for the Character of Coyote he reminds me very much of Sawyer an imitator/trickster (con man who imitates the con man of his childhood) who is capable of very heroic acts. Not Heroic like Jack who does things because it's right, more just because he feels like it. In the Coyote stories you may see Coyote indifferently destroy a monster that has been harassing people then go on to the next story where he is stealing or tricking someone out of food. This is Sawyer, who helps someone, shrugs, and then goes and loots something.

[The Burgermeister]

I find myself in line with lisalsera. . .

I think Abrams created a series that will follows the outline of The Divine Comedy part II; Dante's Purgatory. It also borrows elements from The Cantebury Tales and other literary tales to keep audiences off their scent, but the skeleton is based of of Dante's Purgatory with Jack being Dante.

Here are some similarities
-Dante's Purgatory is an island-mountain. They are trapped on island-mountain.
- I haven't seen all the episodes, but I hear each one opens on a character's eye. In Dante's Inferno it mentions whosoever comes into God's presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His "eyes are too pure, to behold evil". This lays out a symbolic theme or objective to begin each episode. Each character attempting to purify themselves.
-Arrival at purgatory happens on the shores of the island in both pieces of work.
-Jack is Dante.
-John Loche represents Cato; a character who guides souls up into purgatory. Who knows the magic of the island for he knows of the journey at hand.
-Each character represents a sin that will be covered as episodes and even seasons progress. Pride, Gluttony, Wrath, Lust, Sloth, Envy, Avarciousness(greed). The seven sins also represent the levels of purgatory that Dante must pass to enter the garden of eden.

Before seeing these parallel's, I would never have thought that the writer's could squeak out more than two seasons worth of stories off a stranded passengers of a downed airplane. But, if they follow the outline of The Divine Comedy, I can easily see 5-6 seasons, slowly killing off characters unworthy (unable to shake their sins) and following Jack's path, similar to Dante's, until he fully purifies himself and finds out the meaning of life. A morality tale every week. Brilliant!

As a creative mind, Abrams will get this all out with modern symbolism and his own new twists to make entertaining television. Imagine having 600 years to rethink and retell a Dante's story. Plus, the dated symbolism of that time can be used today and described as "magic" or "sci-fi". And sprinkling in other literary works throughout, (The Cantebury Tales = flashbacks for each character) help enhance the orginality and spontaity, instead of being a complete rip off.

:rolleyes

[athywithak]

I posted about this in the rerun forum:

The MOTH, end scene where Charlie burns his drugs:

Reference to when Charlie returns gobstopper in Willie Wonka movie. I don't have the Roald Dahl book "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory" handy here, but probably the same. Locke says the same thing to Charlie Pace that Wonka said to his Charlie.

-K

[sawyerhasbestlines]

Just mentioning for the newbie purgatory fan, that there is limbo stuff in here, if you take a lookie.

[Reginald Westfahl]

Just posted somthing similar on the general board, but this is more than appropriate here:

The article came out in today's CHICAGO TRIBUNE.
www.chicagotribune.com/fe...&cset=true (http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0509200292sep21,1,1125295.story?ctrack=1&cset=true)

In short, it's about the much discussed Episode 3 in which a book called THE THIRD POLICEMAN by Flann O'Brien "will be prominently featured at a key moment."

The guy who wrote the article for the TRIB clearly has no clue what's going on, but the writer for LOST is uncharacteristically forward:

--The book "was chosen very specifically for a reason."

--"Whoever goes out and buys the book will have a lot more ammunition in their back pocket as they theorize about the show. They will have a lot more to speculate about -- and, no small thing, they will have read a really great book."

Actually pointing us in the direction of answers? Now, that's unusual.
And off I go to Amazon.

-RW

[Ktatum]

I'm not big on the "purgatory" concept, but wondered if anyone had ever read CS Lewis' The Great Divorce. A bunch of people from Graytown board a bus that brings them to an unscheduled stop. The reality is much harsher there. Each character has an issue that they can either choose to deal with or deny. Whether or not they embrace the new world decides how they will change. Interesting stuff . . . has some parallels.

[Kuriku P Chao]

HELLo.....

Long time reader, first time poster. If this is the wrong thread...forgiveness please...and redirecton.

Since there were poems, plays, and book(s) written about "Jack Sheppard" from the 1700s, I thought this was the place to post.

www.english.upenn.edu/~jl...ppard.html (http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/Courses/95c/Texts/sheppard.html)
and
www.litencyc.com/php/swor...e&UID=4370 (http://www.litencyc.com/php/sworks.php?rec=true&UID=4370)


Some highlights...
*Jack Sheppard was born in Spitalfields in the year 1702. His father, who was a carpenter, bore the character of an honest man; yet he had another son, named Thomas, who as well as Jack, turned out a thief.

*On Monday, the 30th of August, 1724, a warrant was sent to Newgate for the execution of Sheppard, with other convicts under sentence of death.
It is proper to observe that in the old jail of Newgate there was within the lodge a hatch, with large iron spikes, which hatch opened into a dark passage, whence there were a few steps into the condemned hold. The prisoners being permitted to come down to the hatch to speak with their friends, Sheppard, having been supplied with instruments, took an opportunity of cutting one of the spikes in such a manner that it might be easily broken off.

*He died in the twenty-third year of his age.


So...son of a carpenter...messianic references...dark tunnels...

...Also the author of "Jack Sheppard" wrote another book entitled "Crichton" which, of course, is the last name of the author who introduced the "nanobot" ideas (black clouds) I've read about here.


Your Pal,
KPC

[LostButNotLeast]

Great literature list! But, I can't believe you left off Thorton Wilder's "The Bridge of San Luis Rey." This one seems so obvious to me!

[Demosthenes Zero]

Id also like to point out that 108 (the number of survivors and number painted on the wall below the hatch) is very simular to Shi Nai'an's book (a classic chinese novel) Water Margin. The book is about the 108 stars of destiny and destiny is one of the secrets locke knows about the island.

DZ

[drabauer]

Dear Lostbutnotleast and Demosthenes, please tell us more about these fascinating works!!!

[Ekolocke]

This is taken from abc's forums:

Originally posted by Camthomer @ abc.com forums->Forum Home->Lost->Lost: Plot

So, I feel a little paranoid myself after registering all my f-ing information, just to make a post for the show, but a pretty big coincidence just occurred to me, so here goes. I'm a fan of the show, and have been mulling over the meaning of it all in the context of the last few episodes etc., and just happened to rent the movie "Pi," which I hadn't seen until about 5 minutes ago. Wouldn't ya just know it - it's about a guy searching for a series of numbers that seem to suggest a key to the natural world, and the patterns within it. Gee...that sounds familiar.

1. Protagonist's apartment consists of huge control room/computer, complete with those whirring tape-recording machines, and a computer screen that constantly blinks with a ">". Close-up shots of the computer screen blinking and protagonist struggling with hitting the enter key abound. The keyboard is surrounded by Rousseau-esque calculations on endless pieces of paper.

2. The protagonist and his surly mentor play the game "go" which involves a grid-like board, and black and white "stones." Close-ups of a single black stone in one hand, and white in another, abound.

3. The protagonist is severly disturbed by vibrations, whispers, hallucinations of people appearing and then disappearing, some dripping wet with some sort of liquid. Being as paranoid as he is, he is holed up in his aforementioned apartment, with a rediculous amount of locks on the door, and more shots of both him nervously running to look out of his peephole when he hears loud noises, and point of view shots from his peephole than you can count. Suffering from such disturbances, he attempts to curb his afflictions by injencting himself with cannisters from his medicine cabinet, loaded into an injection gun he hits himself in the arm with periodically.

4. The number sequence he finds is both wanted by government-types and the church, as the sequence can seemingly work in any context. The protagonist constantly watches the stockmarket, and his predictions start to come true...if only he played the lotto.

5. Both the film and the protagonist obsess on spirals, an extension of mathematic theory and mapping. The protagonist sees them everywhere, but mostly in two places: smoke, and at the beach.

6. Protagonist lobotomizes himself at the end of the movie, just how I feel after many LOST episodes.

I'm still mulling over the meanining/interpretation of the film, but the parallels to LOST, especially in uncanny similarities to actual shots, completely started to bleed into what I was thinking about the film. Now, my brain is working on comparative overdrive until next wednesday....great.

[drabauer]

Thanks Pred for the summary. There were several posts on the movie PI last season (in the archives now), but that was long before we knew exactly how ubiquitous the numbers were in the histories of both the island and the castaways. Does anyone here know more about Aronofsky's source material for this fascinating movie?

[LostInWilderness]

Back from the archives.

[sawyerhasbestlines]

If you want in-depth and comprehensive literary and character allusions to Lost, check out this: http://loststudies.com/

If you are someone that craves something more in-depth than the recent croppings of membot, derivative to the point of plagarism threads, and your soul is thirsty for well crafted and thought out character comparisons that are not pasted from Wikipedia, then the above link is for you.

Amy spent over a year compiling and editing an archive of threads. She has weeded through the flotsum for you. It's a fascinating and interesting read for when things slow down here.

In this particular thread, start at about page 3 to find the little gems.

[josporte]

After reading Press Conference a sketch by Harold Pinter, I was struck with my theory for explaining the show Lost. I began to think of the Hanso Foundation as the Minister of Culture in the sketch (Pinter included this sketch in the book Death, etc speaking out against the War in Iraq), and the characters in the show as fictional characters from all over the Western Canon fighting against it/him. Maybe there is an underlying theme to Lost: Can all the goodness that humanity has ever imagined, all the heroes it has loved and the places it holds dear, conquer what is wrong with the world today?

[Fourtoes]

The existence of Penelope and elements of Desmonds story point to "The Odyssey"
In fact, now that I've said it, that idea gets very interesting. Wonder what it says about how Libby would fit into that cosmos?

[boonian androphile]

Libby as Cassandra? Crazy woman/Psychologist?---I mean no one believed her about much of anything. Took her a century to convince Hurley that she liked him.

[camelsmoker]

Yes, there's been a lot of discussion about The Odyssey (and Homer's Iliad), but I preferred lacenaire's comparison of Danielle Rousseau to Cassandra.

[badboy]

As soon as Desmond turned up naked in the jungle I couldn't help but think of Odysseus washing up on the island of Scheria (Phaecian island). Hurley and Nausicaa... hmm maybe not. I think there are WAY too many similarities in the two characters though, I don't like TPTB linking them so much, although Des is a legend he'll never compare to Odysseus.

[Fourtoes]

Link doesn't seem to be working. Can first post be updated?