pinnerman
09-25-04, 02:58 AM
This is just a theory, but I’ve read a lot of quotes and seen enough support material to give it some merit. Sounds crazy? Well I’ll go through all of the information and put in the links to the sources after each point is covered. So here we go (sorry so long).
First, let’s look at some quotes from the producers and actors and see what we can learn. I’ll start with what we all know already, from the Damon Lindelof Interview from this very website, we know it’s NOT a dinosaur:
And now one of the big questions (but not THE BIG question): What is that thing in the bushes? We know it's not a dinosaur. Was it always NOT a dinosaur? "JJ and I have always known what it was and we're VERY discriminating about who we tell, because that's one of the biggest secrets of the show. We know from the beginning it wasn't a dinosaur. If the network ever said anything about it to us it was more on the order of, 'Please tell us it's not a dinosaur.' And we're like, 'Ok, it's NOT a dinosaur!'
Nowhere in any quotes do the producers say the creatures on the island are not PREHISTORIC in nature, they just say they’re not dinosaurs.
Second, also from this website, Exec Producer David Fury made some comments on the island itself in the Sci-Fi Wire article titled “Lost’s Secrets Hinted”:
David Fury, co-executive producer of ABC's upcoming SF series Lost, told SCI FI Wire that one of the most mysterious characters on the new series about plane crash survivors stranded on a mysterious South Pacific island is the island itself. "It is very interesting and has its own mythology that will hopefully unfold over many seasons," Fury (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) said in an interview. "We are hearing and seeing very odd occurrences, like a polar bear on the island. How does something like that happen in the South Pacific?"
"This is not a show about the supernatural, despite the fact that we have a very huge creature that likes to eat people. Despite the surreal, bizarre aspects of the island, there will be an explanation for it. It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We'll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science. There will be no mystical reason or an island of monsters. The island has been around for millennia, and many people have found themselves on it, and as far as we know, nobody has ever gotten off. There is also the possibility of others being on the island, they just haven't seen them yet. And we'll never know how big this island is. It could be enormous, but odd things will keep them from knowing the full length and breadth of it. It's an interesting little allegory. It will be very mysterious."
He hits on some key things here, first he touches on the polar bear, which is a key element in my theory that I’ll explain later. He also rules out “monsters” and sci-fi creatures with his “science or pseudo-science” comment. Another key phrase is his suggestion that the island has been around for “millennia” (which is a made up word), and probably means it’s been there for thousands of years, undisturbed like a roach motel in the Pacific. Stuff gets on the island, it doesn’t get off.
Third, from an AICN article where they interviewed Damon Lindelof, these were his comments on the creatures and when we’ll get some information on them:
AICN: You’re on record as saying there are no dinosaurs on the island. Will we get a look at one of the giant tree-stomping creatures within the first 13 hours broadcast?
DL: The record speaketh true. NO dinosaurs. Will you get a look at the "thing in the trees" in the first 13? I'll only say this -- maybe you'll see it, maybe you won't... but you'll definitely know much more ABOUT it.
www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=18187 (http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=18187)
Last, and most telling, were the quotes from a couple of the actors from Kristin Veitch’s article from E! Online titled “The Lure of Lost”. Matthew Fox and Dominic Monaghan give some information, and you know actors, they’re always dying to tell people what’s up, but they can’t, so they’ll walk the line as close as they can without crossing it:
The entire first season of Lost takes place in the span of only one month. And in the first ep, we learn the island is not what it seems--there's something, well, monstrous, living on it.
"I don't have any idea [what it is]," Foxy tells me when milked for spoilers, "and I don't even use the M-word for it, because I'm not sure it is a monster. I just know it's fast, and it does serious damage."
"All we know is it's something substantial," Dominic says. "We know it's bigger than an elephant--and clearly in a bad mood."
www.lostfansite.com/news-sept18b.html (http://www.lostfansite.com/news-sept18b.html)
And that’s when I figured it out, “bigger than an elephant” plus “prehistoric” equals WOOLLY MAMMOTH. Think about it in context with what we already know. (A) The creatures are large, and have a lot of mass, capable of moving trees in a frightening manor. (B) Elephants and mammoths leave very non-descript footprints because their weight is more evenly distributed. In dinosaur tracks, indentations are clearly left in the ground where the pressure from each step occurs-from the claws. Mammoth tracks wouldn’t stand out as much in dense vegetation. (C) The sound. Does anyone actually know what a dinosaur sounds like? NO. We all have the association of what we think they sound like from the Jurassic Park movies. All they did here was make the sound just familiar enough to where we know it’s something big. (D) The size is right. A mammoth would be big enough to make all that noise, but not tall enough to be seen clearly, it wouldn’t be seen over the treetops.
(E) Most importantly, it explains what happened to the airline pilot. We know the pilot was yanked out of the cockpit, which was high up. The trunk of a mammoth could easily have done this. It also explains why the guy was chewed up a bit, but not eaten. AND it explains how he ended up in a tree. Why was attacked? Probably something to do with the transmissions from the transceiver they were trying to use to call for help. Who knows what sounds and frequencies prehistoric creatures could hear. Maybe it enrages them, and every time they try to use it, the creatures will show up. Modern elephants hear in the infrasonic range and can communicate with each other over huge distances, check out this quote and the link to the research:
Thanks to Katy Payne...her discovery of infrasonic communication has opened the door to numerous implications about the social world of elephants.
Generally, "elephants hear and respond to each other's loud calls from distances as great as four kilometers away"(Payne P.121). This under normal conditions would mean elephants can communicate and hear a message within a fifty square kilometers range.
elephant.elehost.com/Abou...aring.html (http://elephant.elehost.com/About_Elephants/Senses/Hearing/hearing.html)
Also, if you're wondering about some of the sounds, check out the "ElephantVoices computer sounds" on this site. Here's the site:
www.elephantvoices.org/in...=resources (http://www.elephantvoices.org/index.php?topic=resources)
Here's the sound files:
www.elephantvoices.org/re...sounds.zip (http://www.elephantvoices.org/resources/elephantvoices_computersounds.zip)
Obviously, mammoths might have sounded a little different, but a couple of these sound very familiar. I think I remember watching something on the making of Jurassic Park where they covered which animal sounds they combined to make the T-Rex sound, and the elephant was one of them. Just something to think about.
So how did MAMMOTHS end up on the island? For that we have to look at the polar bear. If we assume that the polar bears exist there naturally and have been there for “millennia”, then that would mean they migrated there and crossed glacial masses to do so. Very believable, and it follows David Fury’s comments about having a basis in science. Since it’s been there for thousands of years, other creatures could have migrated there besides the bears. Do you want proof? Look at the history of the mammoths. They originated in Africa, then migrated to Europe, through Asia, and then crossed the land and ice to make it to North America. A prime example of migration between great distances.
Here’s a Discovery school link for quick proof: school.discovery.com/scho...amap.html# (http://school.discovery.com/schooladventures/woollymammoth/migramap.html#)
Want to know something else about mammoths? Ever hear of a place called WRANGEL ISLAND? Consider this: (The source is below.)
Woolly mammoths could not cope with the rapidly changing environment and increasing human predation toward the close of the last glaciation, and most became extinct about 11,000 years ago. However in 1993 came the startling announcement that dwarf woolly mammoths radiocarbon dated between 7,000 and 3,700 years ago lived on Wrangel Island. So while the pyramids and Stonehenge were being built in Egypt and England respectively, dwarf mammoths roamed the relic mammoth steppe on this small island off the coast of northeastern Siberia!
www.crystalinks.com/wooleyanimals.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/wooleyanimals.html)
Scientific fact: A group of mammoths, once thought to be extinct 11,000 years ago, migrated to an ISLAND (key word, island) where they continued to flourish and evolve for another 7000 years. And we as humans just figured this out 11 years ago. One of the two theories regarding the extinction of mammoths is that they died from disease. If another group migrated to a different location and were later isolated, they could have survived indefinitely (for the purpose of the show) if they had a livable environment. Historically, mammoths were very good at adapting to their environments, which explains their survival and adaptability into the ice ages. Here’s another link on the Wrangel Island find.
packrat.aml.arizona.edu/J...anyan.html (http://packrat.aml.arizona.edu/Journal/v37n1/vartanyan.html)
So why is this significant? What’s the link to the polar bears? Guess what animal is extremely prevalent on Wrangel Island? You guessed it – polar bears. Take a look at this website and you’ll see what I mean.
Since 1995, Polar Bears International has provided annual funding to allow research to continue on Wrangel Island in Russia's High Arctic. The island is well known for its large concentrations of polar bears and supports the highest density of polar bear dens in the world.
www.polarbearsalive.org/wrangel.php (http://www.polarbearsalive.org/wrangel.php)
So there you have it. If it’s possible for polar bears to have made it to and survived on this island, than a form of mammoth could have migrated there as well. Throw in shifting land masses and the end of the ice age which isolated them on this island (if it is an island, the producers won’t say how big it is and we won’t know anytime soon), and you have one possible explanation for what those creatures are. They may not even be “woolly”, they may have evolved into something different. The mammoths from Asia weren’t really wooly at all, they had more in common with modern elephants. Feel free to agree, disagree, or look up evidence to support or dispute my theory. For me, this is the only thing that makes sense with what we know so far.
If you took the time to read all this, than please post a reply with your thoughts.
Thanks, Pinnerman in Berkley, MI
One last fun link, this will allow you to look at map grids between Australia and North America and see satellite imagery of all the islands that exist in the Pacific. Very interesting.
eol.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/Cl...efault.htm (http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/Clickmap/default.htm)
Addendum
I found a couple more bits of information on mammoths and the Ice Age. This first link shows that mammoth remains were found as far south as Japan:
www.emory.edu/HISTORY/RAV...e_map.html (http://www.emory.edu/HISTORY/RAVINA/Multimedia_textbook/Maps/Ice_age_map.html)
The second map shows ice coverage in Southeast Asia from 20,000 years ago from a PBS NOVA special website:
www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/vinson/ice-13.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/vinson/ice-13.html)
If you click on "Back to Intro", it will take you to the rest of the site. The map they show has ice coverage as far south as Indonesia and Malaysia - that's all the way down to and past the equator, well south of the boundaries of the tropic of cancer.
Last, here's a couple maps of the world. The first shows underlying ridges and land masses that are under water now, but could have been above water at some point, or possibly formed ice bridges during the last Ice Age. (download the pdf image)
www.cia.gov/cia/publicati...world.html (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/reference_maps/physical_world.html)
Zoom in and take a look at the Nampo Shoto ridge that emanates southwest from Japan and runs all the down to the present day islands of Guam and Saipan. If that ridge was ever above water or frozen over, then migration to those islands would have been possible. Since we know that mammoths existed in Japan, it places them pretty close. Also, Guam is about 1500 miles away from Fiji, so if they had flown north of Fiji and were by the Marshall Islands, and then went 1000 miles, but in the wrong direction (the pilot said they tried to turn back to Fiji), if they went back to the west instead of southwest, it would put them right in the vicinity of Guam. I'm not saying that's definitely where they are, but it connects everything and is possible.
The second map is of current world geography with time zones. The width of each grid box is 1000 miles.
www.maps-continents.com/time-zones.htm (http://www.maps-continents.com/time-zones.htm)
If this helps any of you form your own theories about the possible location of the island based on the flight plan comments from the pilot, please post your information in here. Thanks.
First, let’s look at some quotes from the producers and actors and see what we can learn. I’ll start with what we all know already, from the Damon Lindelof Interview from this very website, we know it’s NOT a dinosaur:
And now one of the big questions (but not THE BIG question): What is that thing in the bushes? We know it's not a dinosaur. Was it always NOT a dinosaur? "JJ and I have always known what it was and we're VERY discriminating about who we tell, because that's one of the biggest secrets of the show. We know from the beginning it wasn't a dinosaur. If the network ever said anything about it to us it was more on the order of, 'Please tell us it's not a dinosaur.' And we're like, 'Ok, it's NOT a dinosaur!'
Nowhere in any quotes do the producers say the creatures on the island are not PREHISTORIC in nature, they just say they’re not dinosaurs.
Second, also from this website, Exec Producer David Fury made some comments on the island itself in the Sci-Fi Wire article titled “Lost’s Secrets Hinted”:
David Fury, co-executive producer of ABC's upcoming SF series Lost, told SCI FI Wire that one of the most mysterious characters on the new series about plane crash survivors stranded on a mysterious South Pacific island is the island itself. "It is very interesting and has its own mythology that will hopefully unfold over many seasons," Fury (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) said in an interview. "We are hearing and seeing very odd occurrences, like a polar bear on the island. How does something like that happen in the South Pacific?"
"This is not a show about the supernatural, despite the fact that we have a very huge creature that likes to eat people. Despite the surreal, bizarre aspects of the island, there will be an explanation for it. It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We'll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science. There will be no mystical reason or an island of monsters. The island has been around for millennia, and many people have found themselves on it, and as far as we know, nobody has ever gotten off. There is also the possibility of others being on the island, they just haven't seen them yet. And we'll never know how big this island is. It could be enormous, but odd things will keep them from knowing the full length and breadth of it. It's an interesting little allegory. It will be very mysterious."
He hits on some key things here, first he touches on the polar bear, which is a key element in my theory that I’ll explain later. He also rules out “monsters” and sci-fi creatures with his “science or pseudo-science” comment. Another key phrase is his suggestion that the island has been around for “millennia” (which is a made up word), and probably means it’s been there for thousands of years, undisturbed like a roach motel in the Pacific. Stuff gets on the island, it doesn’t get off.
Third, from an AICN article where they interviewed Damon Lindelof, these were his comments on the creatures and when we’ll get some information on them:
AICN: You’re on record as saying there are no dinosaurs on the island. Will we get a look at one of the giant tree-stomping creatures within the first 13 hours broadcast?
DL: The record speaketh true. NO dinosaurs. Will you get a look at the "thing in the trees" in the first 13? I'll only say this -- maybe you'll see it, maybe you won't... but you'll definitely know much more ABOUT it.
www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=18187 (http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=18187)
Last, and most telling, were the quotes from a couple of the actors from Kristin Veitch’s article from E! Online titled “The Lure of Lost”. Matthew Fox and Dominic Monaghan give some information, and you know actors, they’re always dying to tell people what’s up, but they can’t, so they’ll walk the line as close as they can without crossing it:
The entire first season of Lost takes place in the span of only one month. And in the first ep, we learn the island is not what it seems--there's something, well, monstrous, living on it.
"I don't have any idea [what it is]," Foxy tells me when milked for spoilers, "and I don't even use the M-word for it, because I'm not sure it is a monster. I just know it's fast, and it does serious damage."
"All we know is it's something substantial," Dominic says. "We know it's bigger than an elephant--and clearly in a bad mood."
www.lostfansite.com/news-sept18b.html (http://www.lostfansite.com/news-sept18b.html)
And that’s when I figured it out, “bigger than an elephant” plus “prehistoric” equals WOOLLY MAMMOTH. Think about it in context with what we already know. (A) The creatures are large, and have a lot of mass, capable of moving trees in a frightening manor. (B) Elephants and mammoths leave very non-descript footprints because their weight is more evenly distributed. In dinosaur tracks, indentations are clearly left in the ground where the pressure from each step occurs-from the claws. Mammoth tracks wouldn’t stand out as much in dense vegetation. (C) The sound. Does anyone actually know what a dinosaur sounds like? NO. We all have the association of what we think they sound like from the Jurassic Park movies. All they did here was make the sound just familiar enough to where we know it’s something big. (D) The size is right. A mammoth would be big enough to make all that noise, but not tall enough to be seen clearly, it wouldn’t be seen over the treetops.
(E) Most importantly, it explains what happened to the airline pilot. We know the pilot was yanked out of the cockpit, which was high up. The trunk of a mammoth could easily have done this. It also explains why the guy was chewed up a bit, but not eaten. AND it explains how he ended up in a tree. Why was attacked? Probably something to do with the transmissions from the transceiver they were trying to use to call for help. Who knows what sounds and frequencies prehistoric creatures could hear. Maybe it enrages them, and every time they try to use it, the creatures will show up. Modern elephants hear in the infrasonic range and can communicate with each other over huge distances, check out this quote and the link to the research:
Thanks to Katy Payne...her discovery of infrasonic communication has opened the door to numerous implications about the social world of elephants.
Generally, "elephants hear and respond to each other's loud calls from distances as great as four kilometers away"(Payne P.121). This under normal conditions would mean elephants can communicate and hear a message within a fifty square kilometers range.
elephant.elehost.com/Abou...aring.html (http://elephant.elehost.com/About_Elephants/Senses/Hearing/hearing.html)
Also, if you're wondering about some of the sounds, check out the "ElephantVoices computer sounds" on this site. Here's the site:
www.elephantvoices.org/in...=resources (http://www.elephantvoices.org/index.php?topic=resources)
Here's the sound files:
www.elephantvoices.org/re...sounds.zip (http://www.elephantvoices.org/resources/elephantvoices_computersounds.zip)
Obviously, mammoths might have sounded a little different, but a couple of these sound very familiar. I think I remember watching something on the making of Jurassic Park where they covered which animal sounds they combined to make the T-Rex sound, and the elephant was one of them. Just something to think about.
So how did MAMMOTHS end up on the island? For that we have to look at the polar bear. If we assume that the polar bears exist there naturally and have been there for “millennia”, then that would mean they migrated there and crossed glacial masses to do so. Very believable, and it follows David Fury’s comments about having a basis in science. Since it’s been there for thousands of years, other creatures could have migrated there besides the bears. Do you want proof? Look at the history of the mammoths. They originated in Africa, then migrated to Europe, through Asia, and then crossed the land and ice to make it to North America. A prime example of migration between great distances.
Here’s a Discovery school link for quick proof: school.discovery.com/scho...amap.html# (http://school.discovery.com/schooladventures/woollymammoth/migramap.html#)
Want to know something else about mammoths? Ever hear of a place called WRANGEL ISLAND? Consider this: (The source is below.)
Woolly mammoths could not cope with the rapidly changing environment and increasing human predation toward the close of the last glaciation, and most became extinct about 11,000 years ago. However in 1993 came the startling announcement that dwarf woolly mammoths radiocarbon dated between 7,000 and 3,700 years ago lived on Wrangel Island. So while the pyramids and Stonehenge were being built in Egypt and England respectively, dwarf mammoths roamed the relic mammoth steppe on this small island off the coast of northeastern Siberia!
www.crystalinks.com/wooleyanimals.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/wooleyanimals.html)
Scientific fact: A group of mammoths, once thought to be extinct 11,000 years ago, migrated to an ISLAND (key word, island) where they continued to flourish and evolve for another 7000 years. And we as humans just figured this out 11 years ago. One of the two theories regarding the extinction of mammoths is that they died from disease. If another group migrated to a different location and were later isolated, they could have survived indefinitely (for the purpose of the show) if they had a livable environment. Historically, mammoths were very good at adapting to their environments, which explains their survival and adaptability into the ice ages. Here’s another link on the Wrangel Island find.
packrat.aml.arizona.edu/J...anyan.html (http://packrat.aml.arizona.edu/Journal/v37n1/vartanyan.html)
So why is this significant? What’s the link to the polar bears? Guess what animal is extremely prevalent on Wrangel Island? You guessed it – polar bears. Take a look at this website and you’ll see what I mean.
Since 1995, Polar Bears International has provided annual funding to allow research to continue on Wrangel Island in Russia's High Arctic. The island is well known for its large concentrations of polar bears and supports the highest density of polar bear dens in the world.
www.polarbearsalive.org/wrangel.php (http://www.polarbearsalive.org/wrangel.php)
So there you have it. If it’s possible for polar bears to have made it to and survived on this island, than a form of mammoth could have migrated there as well. Throw in shifting land masses and the end of the ice age which isolated them on this island (if it is an island, the producers won’t say how big it is and we won’t know anytime soon), and you have one possible explanation for what those creatures are. They may not even be “woolly”, they may have evolved into something different. The mammoths from Asia weren’t really wooly at all, they had more in common with modern elephants. Feel free to agree, disagree, or look up evidence to support or dispute my theory. For me, this is the only thing that makes sense with what we know so far.
If you took the time to read all this, than please post a reply with your thoughts.
Thanks, Pinnerman in Berkley, MI
One last fun link, this will allow you to look at map grids between Australia and North America and see satellite imagery of all the islands that exist in the Pacific. Very interesting.
eol.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/Cl...efault.htm (http://eol.jsc.nasa.gov/sseop/Clickmap/default.htm)
Addendum
I found a couple more bits of information on mammoths and the Ice Age. This first link shows that mammoth remains were found as far south as Japan:
www.emory.edu/HISTORY/RAV...e_map.html (http://www.emory.edu/HISTORY/RAVINA/Multimedia_textbook/Maps/Ice_age_map.html)
The second map shows ice coverage in Southeast Asia from 20,000 years ago from a PBS NOVA special website:
www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/vinson/ice-13.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/vinson/ice-13.html)
If you click on "Back to Intro", it will take you to the rest of the site. The map they show has ice coverage as far south as Indonesia and Malaysia - that's all the way down to and past the equator, well south of the boundaries of the tropic of cancer.
Last, here's a couple maps of the world. The first shows underlying ridges and land masses that are under water now, but could have been above water at some point, or possibly formed ice bridges during the last Ice Age. (download the pdf image)
www.cia.gov/cia/publicati...world.html (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/reference_maps/physical_world.html)
Zoom in and take a look at the Nampo Shoto ridge that emanates southwest from Japan and runs all the down to the present day islands of Guam and Saipan. If that ridge was ever above water or frozen over, then migration to those islands would have been possible. Since we know that mammoths existed in Japan, it places them pretty close. Also, Guam is about 1500 miles away from Fiji, so if they had flown north of Fiji and were by the Marshall Islands, and then went 1000 miles, but in the wrong direction (the pilot said they tried to turn back to Fiji), if they went back to the west instead of southwest, it would put them right in the vicinity of Guam. I'm not saying that's definitely where they are, but it connects everything and is possible.
The second map is of current world geography with time zones. The width of each grid box is 1000 miles.
www.maps-continents.com/time-zones.htm (http://www.maps-continents.com/time-zones.htm)
If this helps any of you form your own theories about the possible location of the island based on the flight plan comments from the pilot, please post your information in here. Thanks.